Hi Everyone,

I live in a two story house on a slab. Recently, I had a problem in my downstairs bathroom. The smell of sewer gases was coming in the bathroom even though the P-Trap in the sink and the trap in the toilet were full of water. After calling the city to check my sewer line for a back up or clog (which was clear at the curb side clean out) I called a plumber. The plumber removed the downstairs toilet and ran a camera through the drain to the curb side clean out. The drain was clear and flowing and the plumber told me that there was no problem. He said the smell must have been coming from a dead animal in the wall. $ 285.00 later, the plumber is gone and I still have a toilet to re-install.

I looked real close at the wax rings on the bottom of the toilet and the closet flange. The first thing that I noticed is there is no wax on the closet flange (not even in the toilet bolt slots) and the bottom of the lower wax (there are 2 wax rings stacked together) is perfectly smooth, like it came out of the box. The only place I saw signs of contact on the wax rings is on their sides, which are kind of oval shaped with jagged edges.

The next thing I noticed is that the top of the closet flange is about 1” below floor level. There is about ¾” of cement like leveling compound poured above the flange and then the vinyl flooring. When looking down into the floor opening, the opening is not round, it’s jagged and oval shaped. I can’t see the edges of closet flange. It looks to me like the closet flange was installed when the slab was poured. Then, 3/4” of leveling compound was poured and then the vinyl flooring was installed. Only enough leveling compound and flooring was removed to uncover the toilet bolt slots and the drain.

I went to a home improvement center and talked with the guys in plumbing. They recommended either using 2 wax rings or using closet flange spacers. I asked them how to install the closet flange spacers and they recommended that I use a Silicone Adhesive/Caulk to “glue” the spacers to the closet flange and each other. Since I have a gap of about 1”, I need to use 4 spacers.

There are a couple of problems with the spacer idea. The first problem is that there are 8 tapered bolt holes in each spacer. It would seem that bolts would work better than Silicone since they would securely fasten all of the spacers to the closet flange and they would also keep the stack of spacers aligned and keep them from shifting around. The problem is, other than the toilet bolt slots, there are no holes in the closet flange. The second problem is that the floor opening is not round and it is smaller in diameter than the closet flange spacers. The hole would have to be opened up to match the diameter of the spacers.

So, the question is, how do I fix the problem? Do I use 2 wax rings or do I use the closet flange spacers? Either way, I figure I have to fix the size and shape of the floor opening. If I go the closet flange spacer route, how should I properly install them in my situation?

Thanks,

Mike

Thanks for all the detail but I'm starting my recommendation before I got to the end. You can build up your flange to flush with the floor by adding several PVC flange spacers. Find PVC Closet Flange Spacer Ring, 4" x 3" and other Toilet Repair at Aubuchon Hardware (http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/51-291-closet-flanges/pvc-closet-flange-spacer-ring-117838.aspx)

One inch below floor level? You may need three wax rings. Make sure that the first one has the collar, the next two need to be strictly wax(no plastic collar). I have found that closet flanges under floor level even a 1/4 inch require two wax rings on most toilets. If yours is indeed a full inch you may very well need three wax rings. Not exactly the right way to do it, but it will work(for a while).

Thanks for the quick response ballengerb1. I've already bought four 1/4" closet flange spacers. I just don't know how to properly install them. The home improvement store plumbing guy said to use Silicone Sealant/Caulk. Since there are holes in the closet flange spacers, I would think that I would want to use screws instead of Silicone Sealant/Caulk. The problem is that there are no holes in the closet flange, just two toilet bolt slots. So, in a first floor installation on a poured concrete slab, how do I install the closet flange spacers?

Thanks,

Mike

Hi mygirlsdad77, thanks for the reply. The original installation had two wax rings and I'm pretty sure that they didn't seal against the closet flange. I'm afraid that you're right about having to use three wax rings. I'm hoping to go with a more permanent solution using closet flange spacers, bit I could use several wax rings as a last resort.

Thanks,

Mike

Use the spacers if possible. Using three wax rings will work for a while, possibly for a long time, but using three was rings is like builing a drain pipe out of wax. If you ever have any pressure on the ring(plugged sewer, etc.) the three rings will most likely be the first thing to fail. Causing water and sewer gas to escape from under the toilet.

As far as anchoring the spaceres, you will have to rent a hilti and use hilti anchors to secure the spacers and flange to the concrete floor. Silicone adhesive will not be strong enough to hold the flange when you tighten the closet bolts.

Unless you are using extra long bolts that will be secured to the existing flange under the floor. Then you should be all right with the silicone adhesive. Just make sure that the area requiring silicone is very clean and dry, and let the silicone set up for at least 24 hours before putting it to use.

Thanks again mygirlsdad77. That sounds more like the kind of solution that I'm looking for. I don't want to experience a sewage or sewer gas leak when the three stacked wax rings fail the way you described.

Since there aren't any holes in the closet flange, I assume the first thing that I should do is drill holes in the closet flange to match the hole pattern on the closet flange spacers and then sink the hilti anchors in these same holes? By the way, the closet flange spacers have 8 holes, do I need to use all 8 holes?

Thanks,

Mike

I would use as many holes as you can without weakening the structure of the cement. Six is the norm. I would try to get at the very least four good solid anchors.

Thanks mygirlsdad77. I attached a picture of a closet flange spacer that is similar to the type that I want to use. Mine are made by the same company, different part number, and they don't have the long toilet bolt slots that you see at the 4 o'clock and 10 o'clock positions. They just have the eight counter sunk holes and the two notches that you see at the 1 o'clock and 7 o'clock positions.

I did buy some 3 1/2" x 1/4" toilet bolts knowing that the closet flange was 1" below floor level. So, if I use 4 of the closet flange spacers pictured (minus the toilet bolt slots) and the 3 1/2" toilet bolts, do you think that I could get by using Silicone if I make sure everything is clean and dry and let it set for 24 hours?

Thanks Again,

Mike

Yes I do believe you would be just fine. Just make sure that the four anchors are located on top and bottom of closet bolts on each side of flange

OK, I'll give this a shot. I just have to find a place to rent a Hilti and the right Hilti anchors. Thanks for your time mygirlsdad77.

Thanks,

Mike

Stack the spacers with a bead of silcione caulk around each one and then screw them into your floor with the beveled round holes. Install your johnnie bolts in the top 2 spacers only to grip the toilet. You will need to carefully alighn the top 2 spacers to get the johnnie bolts in place.

Thanks for the advice ballengerb1.

Thanks,

Mike

Did we mention that the original plumber screwed up with his rough in? There's where it all started, Mike.

Yeah, unfortunately you're right on target ballengerb1. There's nothing like having to fix something after the fact that should have been done the right way the first time.

Thanks,

Mike

In addition to all said: Use brass bolts, not plastic.

Seekinghelp,

You are in good hands follow there instruction s and you will be all right, good luck.

Regards,
John

Lets see hoiw this is working. Johnny1237 comes to this post two months after the poster is happily cured of the issue. Gives me a reddie because I started my answer before reading the entire post. Well Johnny, is is customary to state what my inaccuracy was so step up to the plate. Your choice was accurate and inaccurate, sorry no room for I just don't like this answer. I gave the poster the correct, accurate info needed to fix his proble, step up and state the inaccuracy.

Each of the 1/4 in closet flange PVC spacers should be siliconed together and let dry for 24 hours before use (if you need 1 inch use all 4). Make sure that the silicon does not block the screw holes, but there is no void in any point that liquid can slip through between the spacers from the side. Once dry, the bottom of the spacers are covered with a layer of wax from a new ring, but just thick enough for a tight seal between the spacers and the original (metal)flange. Do not use a full wax ring between the original (metal) flange and the PVC spacers--only need about 1/4 inch --but make sure it is a good seal--work it in with your fingers. You do not want to use silcone between the original (metal) flange and the PVC spaces in case it is needed to be removed in the future. With the closet bolts in place through the original (metal) flange and through the PVC spacers, the spacers have normally 4 holes to screw the spacers into the subfloor. Place new wax ring above PVC spacers to fit void needed up to toilet. Secure bolts to toilet. Determine height needed for wax ring by measuring underside of toilet. Normally the PVC spacers will not come above new floor height, but this depends on bottom of toilet. The bottom of my toilet outlet is even with the sides of the bowl (touches the floor) so if the PVC spaces was higher than the floor it would not fit. (the wax ring fits around the toilet out). Check your toilet to determine maximum height of PVC spacers. AND in the future, if you need to replace toilet you can remove spacers easily since the PVC spacer had a wax seal to the original (metal) flange.

Hello Jaybar,

Welcome to the plumbing website, you responded to a 3 years old post I am sure the issue is resolved, please always check the date on the left corner of the post before you respond, Thanks.

John