I have a 30yr old Tappan Gas Furnace. I replaced the blower motor and wheel. Furnace now keeps running and running to just make a few degrees difference in the house. Air ducts now feel too hot and I can't feel much air coming out of the ducts. Is this a failed fan/heat limit switch?

If you have a clamp on ampmeter, I would check the amperage on the fan motor and see what it's amping at while its running.. look at the name plate of the motor and it should match closely and under its rated amperage. If it is amping OK.. I'm sure you have a restriction in your ducts somewhere.. hope this helps..

I bet the motor is running backwards or the blower wheel is on backwards. Happens all the time.

hvac1000:
I wouldn't be surprised if the rear wheels on my car were running backwards, too. I'll see if the supplier shipped me a CW instead of a CCW blower wheel.

Hvac 1000:
You were right about something being backwards. I inspected the curvatures on the original blower wheel to the new. They were opposite. The supplier sent me a CW wheel instead of the CCW wheel I ordered. The airflow, of course, is now normal. I have to see if its still running hot. I would think the increased airflow would cool the air somewhat.

Let me know what you think.

I think the correct wheel will fix the problem.

I reversed the rotation on the electric motor to coincide with the wrong wheel, and its working much better. The ducts feel hot as they get closer to the furnace, but they feel normal further away.

That also will work. I mentioned that in my other post. It is somewhat normal for the duct to be hotter near the furnace.

I've rebalanced the ducts. The net result so far is I've lost some blowing power with the new blower wheel. It has 12.5% less blade surface area than the original. If I need more blower power I may need to replace the new electric motor (1075rpm) with a high speed motor (1625rpm).

I replaced the blower motor and wheel. Furnace now keeps running and running to just make a few degrees difference in the house



By increasing motor speed you will also increase noise. Good luck with your project.

You are correct. However the new motor and wheel are running very quietly, so I don't think it will bother us. You should have heard the noise from the original blower and motor. It sounded like a freight train.

Good luck.

hvac1000:
I've ordered the 1625rpm electric motor that will give me a 50% boost in air velocity. I don't trust the air flow for the January deep freeze. It gets down to 10 below zero around here.

Thanks for your help.

Blower motor speed has nothing to do with heat in general. There is only so much heat available for a given size furnace. All you are going to do is blow the same heated air around and crerate drafts,overtax your duct system, and increase your electric bill. It will be like living in a wind tunnel but I do not live there so enjoy.

You really should check the heat rise across the heat exchanger. Compare this with the range listed on the name plate. This should give you a pretty good indication of whether the blower you installed is pumping out too much or too little air.

Hi MarkwithAK
Thanks for the suggestion. I will do that. I know the blower wheel is pumping out less air than the original. We can tell at the air vents. It's much less velocity than before with the original, but also hotter. Also, the new wheel has 12.5% less blade surface area than the old.

When I changed the rotation on the motor to coincide with the CW blower wheel design, the ducts were cooler. They're still hot, although not as hot as before.

I know from experience with the old blower wheel and motor, what the temperature of the air ducts should be: warm to the feel. My guess 110-110 degrees.

Question: What should the temperature of the air be coming out of the air duct at the further point from the furnace?

hvac1000:
You are right that blower speed has nothing to do with the temperature of the furnace. However it has everything do with the velocity of air and cfm produced. The difference will be in the time it takes to warm the house in dead of winter. i.e. more air, less time. This will determine how often the furnace has to cycle, and my guess is that the higher 1625 rpm will pay for itself in reduced utility bills.

The difference will be in the time it takes to warm the house in dead of winter. i.e. more air, less time.

You can have all the air you want but since the furnace is LIMITED to the amount of BTU'S it can produce all you are doing is blowing around the same amount of BTU'S and that will not heat the home any faster in fact it can have the reverse result.

The faster air moves across the skin the more moisture it removes. Less moisture in the air has a determental effect on the human body in regards to sensation. The sensation part is where the person will feel chilled and very uncomfortable.

Did you do a calculation on what this extra CFM will do to all the air leakage values in the home? All homes leak air but higher velocity will increase that problem.

Engineers found out long ago that the best speed for heating is usually the lowest speed available while staying within the design heat curve of the furnace (IE temperature rise across the heat exchanger as mentioned by another poster). This provides the maximum output of heat for a given BTU imput. By incerasing blower speed beyond design temp it will actually heat less or have less actual output. The heat exchanger will never be allowed to stay at full operating temperature for any length of time causing more run time and allowing more spent fuel up the flue no matter what the efficiency of the furnace is. You see the negative effects the speed of the fan can have on a furnaces proper operation?

You started posting because you could not figure out why your new motor and fan cage would not mover enough air. You had to be told about proper rotation of the motor and cage. Then all of a sudden you are a fan expert.

I suggest you read up on fan laws to start with. This way at least you will have a little knowledge on the subject.

As you can see in the below link it takes approximately 50+ percent more power (energy) to increase the fan speed 20 percent. Since you are talking a 50 percent increase in air flow with your system your energy bill will go up quite a bit on electrical usage. But I might as well tell you now that the higher speed motor that you are getting will never spin the fan up to that speed. Here again it is a violation of the fan laws since you are not installing a 5 HP motor. In fact you might stall the motor so to spaek and burn it out sooner than you think because placing to small a HP motor under extreme stress will cause a quick failure. Then you can go out and buy another one. I just tell it the way it is and since it is your home and not mine it does not make a diference what you do. Our job here is to try and give good advise and if the posters ignore it that is fine with us. There are many good helpers on this board and many are more knowledgeable that myself under various circumstances. We try hard to give the best information possible. Enjoy the fan law link and become educated.

http://www.nyb.com/Catalog/Letters/EL-02.pdf

hvac1000:
You are right about BTU's. You are also right about best speed for heating is the slowest. The faster the air moves across the heat exchanger, the less time it has to heat. Thus slower air velocity produces a higher temperature at the air vents. This is basic common sense.

What I'm trying to accomplish is the air is too hot at the air vents, and I wish to cool it by moving it faster to compensate for the less efficient blower wheel. The wheel is rated to 1750 rpm's, so a 1625 rpm motor should be OK. The proof will be in the performance upon installation.

I'm not trying to get something beyond performance specs. I'm simply trying to get the air movement to where it was before I installed the new blower and motor.

I don't claim to be an HVAC expert, I'm just a do-it-your-selfer, and I've tapped into your experience to help me and you did quite well. You helped me go back and look again at the wrong blower that was shipped to me. I thank you for that.

I didn't have to be told about the proper rotation of the blower. I ordered a CCW and was sent a CW. I trusted the supplier and he made a mistake. The shipping document didn't have the rotation. I had to inspect the curvature of the blower blades and compare it to the original which was CCW. Don't get twisted in your shorts over fan theory. This is common sense.

It is not theory it is Fan Laws. They cannot be changed. Good luck.

I have followed fan law #1:
CFM varies in direct proportion to change in RPM
RPM (new) CFM (new) = RPM (old) x CFM (old) .

Sometimes all theoretical calculations and planning efforts don't take into account things that go awry in the field, and thus, you have field changes that need to be made to make things work. This is a field change because of someone else's screw up.

Thanks again for your help.

LOL

There was NO problem with the original design of the furnace. All you had to do was obtain the correct blower wheel to take all the guess work out of it. Now the screw up of someone else will be expanded to a larger screw up by trying to be a field engineer. I see no wisdom in that. Once again good luck with your problem.

hvac1000:
Of course there was no problem with the original design of the furnace or it wouldn't have lasted 30 yrs. You think I will burn out the new higher rpm motor. You're the one who is supposed to be the expert. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Everyone is has a right to there opinion.

I've received and installed the higher RPM electric motor and the furnace is operating superbly. The register temperature is running between 100-120 degrees F.

Thanks for all your help.

Hope it lasts for you.

I've replaced the thermocouple. Is there a standard universal pilot burner assembly I can use?

Do you have any recommendations?

There are universal pilot burners made by Honeywell and White Rodgers just to name two of the companys that make them.

BUT

You have to be sure to get the correct gas type Natural or propane.
You also have to piuck one that has the correct target. Different pilots will have different directions of pilot flow. This is critical on most furnaces since one pilot flame might be for the pilot sensor/safety and the other pilot flame is used to light the burners. In the trade there are called right or left hand pilots and there are also center fire ones.


Component (http://customer.honeywell.com/Honeywell/UI/Pages/Catalog/ComponentCategory.aspx?Catalog=Homes&Category=Pilot+Burners_12257&ChannelID=%7b2EB2F178-20ED-44E0-97FB-CCFB4218DD64%7d)


http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?operator=prodIndexRefinementSea rch&originalValue=Pilot+Burner+&L1=Pilot

How do I tell what I have? My Control Valve is White-Rodgers Model 36303.

The control valve/gas valve has nothing to do per say with the way the target has to be for your burner.

36C 0r 36D or other letters plus numbers are how a W/R gas valve reads. 36303 will not compute. Look on the gas valve again. Example 36E86-303

Since you replaced the thermocouple already what happened to the pilot ???

And if the pilot got damaged because you did not spray it down with WD-40 before trying to take the brass nut off you will probably need the aluminum tube and some fittings also. That dag gone aluminum tube always wants to twist unless you spray that area first.

36c03-333

Looks like a universal valve.


http://www.white-rodgers.com/wrdhom/pdfs/instruction_sheets/0037-6264.pdf

I've located that spec sheet for the valve. It's the correct one. How do I tell what type of pilot burner assembly I need to replace?
Right, left, center?

I hope you have the old one. If not you will have to post pictures of the burner area and hope someone here can tell. It is VERY important to get the correct one.

Post the model number exactly as on the furnace. I probably will not find anything on it in all my books but you never know.

Tappan model #SGUF 140 D 48 E
s/n 77119739

Tappan model #SGUF 140 D 48 E7
s/n 771 19739

No luck with that model number or anything close to it.

That's why I had to resort to a universal motor and blower: whatever I could find.

I found one universal Pilot Burner:
Pilot Burner for use with Thermocouples (Natural Gas or L.P.Gas) (Universal Pilot Replaces many Obsolete Pilots): American HVAC Parts (http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PIL9962H&Category_Code=gv)

But I don't know if the orifice is correct, or the flame characteristic.

That price is a rip off do not buy it there.

It would all be guess work from here. If the pilot comes with both nat and LP orifices the one that you need will work since the orifice is sized for the pilot assembly to start with.

The main problem is the way the pilot flames come out to lite the burner and if you do not have the old one that can be a tuff decission unless you are there looking at it and have experience.

Can you post pictures of the pilot area of the furnace?
What gas are you using Nat or propane?

The furnace is natural gas. The old one is still working as we speak undamaged. It appears too risky to guess at the orifice and flame characteristic even with a photo if I send one. Maybe I should just leave it alone.

What's the risk of continuing to use a 30 yr old pilot burner?

What's the risk of continuing to use a 30 yr old pilot burner?

None

Then, I think I'm done. Thanks again for your help. It's much appreciated.

Glad you got it going. Stay warm.

Do you think I should replace the limit switch with a universal replacement? Its 30 years old. The insertion length is 10-3/16"

If the limit is defective replace with the same basic temperature cutoff.

How can I tell if it is defective?

Test it and see when it operates. Then look on the furnace for the operating temps. You just asked if you should replace it cause it was 30 years old. I guess it must be working since you were only going to replace it because of age.

Its working. I was just thinking of preventive maintenance.

Red, I'm sorry if I missed the post on these 5 pages, but did you ever get the proper rotation blower wheel or are you running the wrong one backwards? Because of the blower housing design, running the wrong wheel in the right direction still won't be as efficient as the proper wheel. You will get turbulance at the blower outlet. I think that would have been the first fix I tried before increasing the blower speed.

Missouri:
I bought a ccw wheel and was shipped a cw. I reversed the motor rotation.

If I understand you correctly, by reversing the motor rotation you're saying that I am going against the design of the blower housing, and won't get the proper cfm. Is this correct?

Yes. You have diminished air flow because of this, how diminished would depend on the blower output design... the more open the output of the blower, the less the effect would be.

I would agree with you, except that the blower housing is symmetrical, typically u-shaped from the side view, but rectangular at the top interface with the inlet. So there are no indications from the housing design that air blowing cw or ccw would make any differences as long as it passes upward over the heat tubes.
What do you think?

If your description is accurate, then I tend to agree with you. If blower housing design doesn't dictate the air flow direction, you are correct. Duly noted.

My take is the replacement blower has less blower blade surface area and so it is not "paddling" as much CFM as the original.

Thanks anyway. I'm always open to ideas.

That's probably accurate. And if the blower wheel doesn't fill the opening completely, there is an issue with turbulance at the edges of the wheel.

The blower wheel is the same width as the original, but the diameter is 1/2" larger. I couldn't find an exact universal fit.

I've rebalanced the ducts. The net result so far is I've lost some blowing power with the new blower wheel. It has 12.5% less blade surface area than the original. If I need more blower power I may need to replace the new electric motor (1075rpm) with a high speed motor (1625rpm).

I would be very careful of replacing blower motor with a higher RPM motor,, the fast it blows the cooler the needed air will be by the time it gets to your living area

It was deliberate. The air was too hot at the register. I've replace the motor and it's now ranging between 100-120 F.

But I will have to see how it performs at the coldest day in January.

Thanks for the thought.

I would be most concerned about the life span of the blower motor. If the blower motor is not sized to the blower wheel you can cause the motor to over amp which can lead to failure.

The blower wheel is rated to 1750 rpm and the motor is running 1625. The 1625 rpm motor amp is 5.4. The 1075 rpm motor is 7.4 amps.

I do have a question for everybody between an old blower wheel and a new one: If the blower wheel diameter and width is the same, the number of blades the same, the rotation the same, and the motor shaft is long enough to mount the blower wheel, what difference would there be if the new blower wheel has a convex hub if the original has a concave hub?

I do have a question for everybody between an old blower wheel and a new one: If the blower wheel diameter and width is the same, the number of blades the same, the rotation the same, and the motor shaft is long enough to mount the blower wheel, what difference would there be if the new blower wheel has a convex hub if the original has a concave hub?


Every blower wheel has a rate of transfer. This rate is based upon testing by the manufacturer at various speeds in various style housings. One wheel can have many listed rates of air movement and safe speeds depending upon the load imposed by the cage it is placed in. Cage manufactures if different from the blower wheel manufacturers will also post this type of information or have it available for end users like major equipment manufacturer and there engineers. In order to find that information you will need to contact the manufacturer of the wheel/cage combination or visit there website if a website is available.

Engineers design equipment for a specific purpose and with specific goals in mind. Any modifications especially with HVAC equipment usually end in disaster by reducing the life of the equipment or creating a hazard. Heat exchangers are especially prone to damage as we have proven in our testing at the university. Manufactures have us test the equipment for failures under stress. Usually there is a 15 to 25% safety margin built into equipment till damage starts to occur. If for example a heat exchanger is taxed at 125% of its rated value for 5 minutes with 5 minutes cool down time no damage may occur but is taxed 15 times at this value some damage is noticeable (usually warping out of spec.) If the initial testing is at 125% for a 15 minute cycle at 15 times for this value the damage becomes much more severe and this goes on and on testing wise till total failure. This way if some idiot decides to modify there equipment to over fire for example they can cover there boxer shorts in a court of law. Even if the unit is returned to all stock parts before the investigation a
metallurgist can tell the values at the time of failure so there can be no coverup. Modern science is a wonderful thing and matching that with computers just makes it awesome.

It is a dangerous game we sometime play and in many respects just plain stupid since common sense tells us better. I try to follow the Do NO Harm policy. Try to repair as best as possible but Do NO Harm to the equipment that could cost human life.

The John Wayne attitude towards repair can be dangerous.

Actually there is no difference in air flow, all else being equal. Concave positions the hub closer to the motor. Convex positions the hub further from the motor.

That's it.

Thanks for your help.

hvac1000:
Why didn't you just say "I don't know". We're not addressing heat transfer gradients across the heating tubes, nor harmonic frequencies of blower wheel blades. This IS common sense.

I think you're twisted in your shorts again.

Since you are such a professional on air flow why did you ask the question to start with. In all your posts which started with blower running backwards till now you were the one with the cocky answers not me.

Example

I wouldn't be surprised if the rear wheels on my car were running backwards, too. I'll see if the supplier shipped me a CW instead of a CCW blower wheel.

To help you all I mentioned was the possibility of the unit running in reverse. Looks like that upset you because you could not figure out the problem yourself.

Example

You were right about something being backwards.

Looks like I helped you there. But that first cocky answer was a tip off to me exactly what type of personallity you have.

Example

I reversed the rotation on the electric motor to coincide with the wrong wheel, and its working much better.

I also mentioned that possibility in my post back to you.

It continues on and on with you asking questions and getting the best answers possible but you do not want to hear the truth all you want to hear is people agreeing with you and the methods you are using to modify your furnace.

If you are unhappy that is a shame. If you do not want to listen to the many helpers we have on this board that is OK in my book also. The John Wayne attitude you show towards the correct answers you have been given is a prime example of a person who always has to have his own way and that is probably how you try and run your life. That is just wonderful also but my last message to you was meant to make you think about what you are doing or have already done to your furnace. If the furnace was working correctly you would not have posted here to start with.

Good luck with your furnace since I believe you will need it when the real cold weather hits.