My name is Bobby. I have two children with an ex-fiance. We have been to court, paternity has been established to me, with both children.

Also, child support has been setup and I have been paying it when I can, although I am not current to date.

--- but that is all that has been setup via the court system. I have no visitation setup, and I don't understand exactly why.

I have called the courts and even appeared in person to find out how to apply for visitation. I assumed since I was court ordered to pay child support that I would at least be asked about visitation at some point. I never was.

The office of Child Support tells me that I have to hire a lawyer just to apply for visitation. Is this really the route I need to go? I do not have $750 that my lawyer requires me to pay for his services.

How do I go about getting visitation established?


Side note:

My ex has been granted full custody due. A court date was setup to establish custody and I was absent due to not having transportation at the time of the hearing. I called the court to inform and they went ahead with the hearing anyway, awarded her full custody and no visitation was established.

First Visitation and Child Support are generally kept separate. So its not surprising that visitation was not mentioned during the support hearings. YOU needed to bring it up.

Is the mother refusing to allow you time with the kids? If so, then you need go to the court and ask for visitation to be setup. If you need a lawyer for this then that's what you have to do.

The two children are ages 2 & 4. They have until two months ago, lived solely in my residence, while she had legal custody. She got mad and two month ago, took them from my home and has refused even any of my family to see them as well as myself.

The people at the courthouse I talked to didn't specify that I required one, they just didn't know for sure how to proceed and advised that lawyers usually are the best route to go.

I understand it's my responsibility.

Would it be possible to just write a letter to the superior court judge and ask for visitation to be established?

First let me see if I have this straight. Up to two months ago, you were all living together. But she had full legal custody?

Then she got mad, moved out with the kids, filed for child support and is refusing visitation? All within the last 2 months?

You can't just write a letter. You have to file a petition in Family Court for visitation. You can check with the court clerk on what form this petition needs to take. Once the petition is accepted a hearing will be set where you can both present your case. I would suggest that you petititon for joint legal custody as well as visistation. I can see her having full physical custody, but not full legal custody.

First let me see if I have this straight. Up to two months ago, you were all living together. But she had full legal custody?

Then she got mad, moved out with the kids, filed for child support and is refusing visitation? All within the last 2 months?

No. We seperated almost two years ago. I asked her to move out, and at first she took the kids with her to her mothers. About three months went by while we were living apart and trying to work things out, to no avail. They became too much for her to handle by herself while trying to work and goto college, so she brought our daughters to live with me. During the last two years, they have spent 90% of that time living with me, while she has had full legal custody. I do have proof of this in many forms other than "hear say".

During this time she had filed for TANF and FOOD STAMPS. They required the father of her children to pay support. She filed for support about a year ago. While they were living with me. I have had to pay support while they were living with me. I had been providing everything for them. She paid me no support at all, nor did she even offer to help with transportation to doctor appt.'s, nor buy diapers, milk, food etc.

It was also during this time that the initial hearing to discuss custody and child support happened that I could not attend. At that hearing they decided child support amounts and appointed custody.

Everything was fine until two months ago. She had legal custody, while I had physical custody *not court appointed*. She wasn't really a part of their life even though I wanted her to be, so I just assumed this was how my crappy life would be and settled for at least having my two children in my life.

The reason she came and took my daughters is because I had a lawyer send her a statement asking for joint legal custody, on specific terms. I having physical custody, and her having joint legal. This pissed her off and she came and picked up our children and I haven't seen them since. Despite many attempts and begging.

Four months ago, I enrolled my oldest daughter *4 years old* into a pre-school. Since she has had physical custody during these last two months she was responsible for taking our daughter to school. She didn't want to, so she withdrew her from school entirely. She has no job, no car, and lives with her mother refusing to do anything but soak up TANF / Child Support.

In a nutshell, there you have it, I hope this conveys enough information for you.


You can't just write a letter. You have to file a petition in Family Court for visitation. You can check with the court clerk on what form this petition needs to take. Once the petition is accepted a hearing will be set where you can both present your case. I would suggest that you petititon for joint legal custody as well as visistation. I can see her having full physical custody, but not full legal custody.

I went to the courthouse today actually and asked someone in the Clerk's office for the form to apply for visitation rights. The lady actually looked confused and told me any forms they had for that such matter would be on a designated table. I went to said table, and the only form close to what I needed, was a contempt of visitation form. At this point I'm debating the intelligence of the people in my courthouse. I do agree about filing for joint legal custody. I just don't have enough money to pay a lawyer to do this for me. It's not even an option. I work with min. wage salary and cannot afford a $750 lawyer fee. I talked to a few lawyers in my area and that was the lowest price I could get from any of them.

I just need to know if there is some way around hiring a lawyer to petition the court, some online form; a form someone could mail me; anything. Someone I can call who would do it pro bono... whatever helps me see my daughters. I appreciate immensely any advice anyone can give. You really are godsends.

I live in the state of Indiana, in Greene county. *if you need to know for any reason*

Well you have some issues with fraud here. If the kids were living with you and she applied for public assistance at the same time that's fraud. That she filed for child support while they were living with you was also fraud.

Frankly you screwed up here. When she let the kids move back in with you, you should have immediately filed for a change in custody. When she filed for child support, you shoulkd have asked for a new hearing stating that the kids were living with you, therefore no support should have been due.

We do have a family law expert from Indian here so I will get them to look in here. They may know about the forms you have to file.

Does your local court have a family law facilitators office or a friend of the court office? Part of the reason your getting the run around is because if they told you exactly what and where to fill out paperwork then they could be crossing a legal line. That's what the first two suggested offices do. They don't represent you but they can help guide you through the paperwork and filing fees needed.

The only reason I didn't do all the thing's you said was because I was scared.

I had physical custody, and not enough money to hire a lawyer. I knew if I didn't just do what she said, that she would take my children away from me until I fought her tooth and nail.

I did not know what she was applying for while I had them in my care. I found all this out when I went to court the last time over Child Support. I found out the reason I was paying support was because she applied for assistance. My court appointed lawyer for child support even told the judge we had proof that they were living with me and didn't know why I was even paying support. The judge and the state said they were only there to discuss the amounts of support I owed due to not paying it. I would very much like to make her accountable for these actions, and have my life put back together with my daughters.

Does your local court have a family law facilitators office or a friend of the court office? Part of the reason your getting the run around is because if they told you exactly what and where to fill out paperwork then they could be crossing a legal line. Thats what the first two suggested offices do. They dont represent you but they can help guide you through the paperwork and filing fees needed.

I'm not sure, I will call them promptly in the morning though, as it's now passed 4pm in my time zone, and they are closed.

Wow I have to say wow sorry if that comes off wrong but that was my first reaction. That being said I wouldn't attempt this with out a lawyer by my side better yet attatched to my pants pocket with a staple gun. It's true that you really screwed up when you had the children with you that was your best opportunity to gain custody. Then when you went to court for support that was your greatest opportunity to show the judge that they live with you and you wouldn't have been ordered to pay. Thank goodness you live in Greene county and are super close to IU. I'm not saying that this can't get turned around but you would have to be a genious to do it on your own. I would call up IU tomorrow morning (as soon as you can) and get to their legal department. They would be the best bet to help you at this point just because you can't afford your own lawyer. Not always mind you but a lot of times the law students need some practice so help out in the community to get this practice often for very low rates or free. They also have a access to a great law liberary. So while for official purposes I have only Purdue stuff (where most of my family went) I have to advise you to get ahold of IU. I can look online and see if I can find the papers you need but as I said with the mess you have I wouldn't try it on my own.

The only reason I didn't do all the thing's you said was because I was scared.

I had physical custody, and not enough money to hire a lawyer. I knew if I didn't just do what she said, that she would take my children away from me until I fought her tooth and nail.

I did not know what she was applying for while I had them in my care. I found all this out when I went to court the last time over Child Support. I found out the reason I was paying support was because she applied for assistance. My court appointed lawyer for child support even told the judge we had proof that they were living with me and didn't know why I was even paying support. The judge and the state said they were only there to discuss the amounts of support I owed due to not paying it. I would very much like to make her accountable for these actions, and have my life put back together with my daughters.

Right when you go into a reviw of child support it is (usually) a different judge who isn't as busy as the one that originally set the support the one that set the support is the one who you will have to go back in front of in order for anything including visitation to be changed.

It didn't come off wrong. Wow is exactly how I'm feeling. Just wow.

I'm sure I screwed up. Namely because I had physical custody and she went awol and I needn't worry about it.

The information provided was to give the above poster more relevance. In all honesty I couldn't care less if she get's caught up on fraud charges. ALthough the pissed off part of me says to "catch her red-handed".

I just want my daughters. This was the only source I could find, that could provide me with intelligent feedback.

I will def. contact IU and see what I can do with their legal dept. See if I can set up an apt. with the director and maybe he can give some advise, or suggest someone. Great idea, tyvm!

Then when you went to court for support that was your greatest opportunity to show the judge that they live with you and you wouldn't have been ordered to pay.

I had the opportunity, and proof, and tried to tell the judge this at the last hearing I went to. He didn't care at that hearing I guess, because this situation didn't improve.

I had the opportunity, and proof, and tried to tell the judge this at the last hearing I went to. He didn't care at that hearing I guess, because this situation didn't improve.

See this is where any attorney earns their keep. An attorney would know how to force the judge to listen or what courts to bring it up in.

I just want to get back to one thing. I think you may be able to get your ex prosecuted for fraud. And I would use that as leverage against her.

Anyone else turning up anything on online forms, pdf files etc etc?

Or names of pro bono lawyers in the greene county area of Indiana?

Sorry we can't give you any names of attorneys this site is sponsored by some. What you can do if you haven't already is call the bar association and they can give you a couple names of lawyers in your area.

1. I need the form the apply for visitation rights. My local couthouse cannot provide me with one.

Where else can I get it? Legal forms online? etc. Does anyone know a link?

2. I do not need the names of lawyers in an area I have lived in for 27 years. :)

I really can just start this all by filing the petition for visitation rights. I can then have my court appointed lawyer step in, because he just wants to charge me to file the petition for me.

---------------- any ideas?

You could try here. They seem to have forms in PDF form

http://www.childcustodycoach.com/free-online-custody-forms.phpat.

Where did the idea of a court appointed lawyer come from. I had never heard of it in a " family " court setting except as advocate to the child.

This is a weird situation and you case is kind of a mess. First, you might want to report this to the welfare authorities because mom got the TANF under false pretenses: even though she had custody on paper, the kids weren't really with her and I'm sure that the welfare folks won't approve a TANF case under those facts (you might have been the one actually entitled to the TANF by the way).

If you paid CS during this period I would assume you can't get reimbursed- you should have filed a motion for mod of cusotdy back when this all started (when the kids came to live with you). If there are arrearages, you might get retroactive relief during the period that the kids were actually in your care and the support order ran. SO check that out with an attorney in your state.

Finally, you should just file your motion to modify custody. Get so help with it whatever it costs. Apply for a credit card. $750 is drop in the bucket of that's all you need to come up with. In Calif. I'd want a $3500 retainer for a case like yours.

One other thing I wanted to add (and sorry for the typo's in the last post- that's what I get for not proof-reading). Welfare cases always wind up in a county office wherein reimbursement from the non-custodial parent is attempted (they get the full child support guideline by the way even of the amount of welfare benefits paid is less than the CS amount). Once welfare stops, and only then, can a custodial parent seek CS herself. So sometimes these cases end up as being a combination of welfare reimbursement and ongoing CS often with an arrears compondent. I would do this (if this were California and you were a client of mine--again check this out with a family law attorney in your state):

1. Report her to the welfare office for welfare fraud for TANF and other benefits received while the kids were with you- let them go after her-;
2. File a motion to determine CS arrears, modify CS and to modify custody - ask for custody yourself with visitation to her- after all you have acted as the kids primary parent all along anyway and should still be able to-
3. Ask that she pay CS to you (if you acquire custody yourself);
4. Ask for relief from any arrears that ran during the time the kids were in your care and custody and be prepared to document the dates, etc- you may not be able to get relief if the arrears relate to a period in which welfare was paid and reimbursement is sought- but you can at least ask for it-- I personally think you should be able to get it but there is scant case authority directly on that narrow issue; you can definitely get it for the period that arrears relate to the running of a CS order that in non-welfare-related.;
5. Ask the case be set for trial if you can't have all this decided on the court's 20 minute morning calendar.

Good luck.

Not to belabor the point, but one final thing I wanted to say: What you described here is sort of the run-of-the-mill, day-in-the-life of a family law attorney type of case. I've had (and have) many cases just as messed up as yours--I get calls like yours with crazy facts like this all the time- and this just serves to illustrate to everyone how complicated family law can get and how important it is to seek out good advice on the subject. I'm an attorney and a certified family law specialist myself and this stuff is hard for us much of the time. Sometimes we have to scratch ours heads and say,"What in the world is going on..?" So, at least consult with a lawyer who limits his or her practice to family law or who is a certifed specialist in the field if your state certifes specialties in law.

Here's just one small example of why your question is a tuff one in some respects: if the mom received TANF during the time the kids were with you and the county seeks reimbursement for that same time at the CS guideline, can you defend and not have to pay by proving the kids were with you during that time? We don't have an answer to that in California (some other state might but I doubt it) but we do have case law that says you can in non-welfare cases (e.g, mom just has a support order and is not on welfare and it runs while the kids are with you--).. But does the same rule apply if it's welfare reimbursement? Should it? Why? That's the kind of stuff that requires a sophisticated argument and good P's and A's for a judge.

This stuff to way over the heads of anyone at a law clinic staffed by law students -BELIEVE ME- or at some university with a law school- most of the professers wouldn't be able to fully answer these questions either. So at least find a family law attorney who knows her/her stuff. It will be worth the consult fee.

All the best

One other thing I wanted to add (and sorry for the typo's in the last post- that's what I get for not proof-reading). Welfare cases always wind up in a county office wherein reimbursement from the non-custodial parent is attempted (they get the full child support guideline by the way even of the amount of welfare benefits paid is less than the CS amount). Once welfare stops, and only then, can a custodial parent seek CS herself. So sometimes these cases end up as being a combination of welfare reimbursement and ongoing CS often with an arrears compondent. I would do this (if this were California and you were a client of mine--again check this out with a family law attorney in your state):



This is where Indiana is a little different than Cali. The mom (while still filed fraudulently) would get the CS. Her government benefits would be decreased rather than the state recovering the cost. There is generally only "pay back" to the welfare system if the support was not paid for very long periods. Trust me on this one. And the $750 won't get him very far here either that is just the very start. It is common to have at least a $3,000 retainer.

Thanks Stina for the imput. That's interesting.I would have thought that since state welfare systems receive substantial federal contributions that the feds would have mandated one uniform system of reimbursement. Maybe not. Our system is a lot like subrogation in other areas of law: we'll give you the welfare on the condition you assign all of your CS rights over. And there's no double-dipping of course. You can't have both. Only after welfare stops can you then get the CS yourself.

But I kind of like your way of doing it: you can get your CS but we will offset it against what we give you. But the problem with that is tracking CS received by the welfare recipient and applying the offset. Sounds like an open door for fraud on the recipient's part (lying about CS paid for example) and an administrative headache- tracking CS orders and payments received. Sounds like a potential mess.