Hello,

I've heard it said that Catholics believe that we are justified by faith and works. What works do they have in mind? I'd like to get a Catholic perspective on this.

Rob

Rob - I'm not a Catholic but I see that the bible makes a clear connection between faith and works and that is exactly the argument that James is making in his letter.

In my opinion the arguments I hear regarding that we are saved by faith apart from works really stop short of the full import of what Paul was saying and totally misses what James is saying altogether.

What I believe Paul is saying in Romans is that there was this belief held by Judaizers which basically went like this: "I am a really spiritual person because I keep the commandments of the Mosaic law and therefore I am justified in the eyes of God." The Pharisees had their own interpretation of the Law of Moses and in their minds, they were keeping it so well that they had earned God's favor. This is exactly the attitude of the Pharisee Jesus mentions in his Parable: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

What I believe Jesus is doing here is contrasting the fundamental attitude of the Pharisees with that of real believers. Paul's epistle to the Romans is getting at this fundamental attitude even more and explaining that you or I are not justified by keeping certain rituals or rules but are justified by God apart from the law. That is, God is the one that justifies me in His sight, not me in my adherence to laws.

What James is saying is that the one who is justified by God demonstrates that he or she is a child of God by his or her works. Let me explain. If God were to be merciful to us and extend forgiveness, it is possible that none of us would ever know that He had been merciful to us. The fact that God had chosen to merciful to us would be hidden away in His mind without any of us knowing that He had been merciful to us. But the bible is saying that God has chosen to reveal this to us by marking us with His Spirit. And because He marks those whom He has forgiven, the result is a distinguishable change in the attitude and heart of a believer.

For example, in James, he is saying that rich people have entered into the assemblies of believers and the believers are treating the rich with high regard but showing contempt to the poor believers. Now the rich, as James puts it, "have dragged you into courts" and have even killed some of them. James is saying that if you really believe in Jesus and the gospel, why are you treating the cruel, unbelieving rich man better than your poor brother, who stands to inherit eternal life? James is saying, if you truly are a believer, prove it by your attitude to your brother.

Here's my argument in summary. In order for me to be justified by God and receive mercy, God has to extend mercy to me and justify me. I am a sinner and I cannot earn my salvation... I can only hope in the mercy of God. If I have been a recipient of God's mercy and forgiveness, there ought to be a change in me, if not immediately, at least over time. I'm not saying that I need to be producing all kinds of good works. Fundamentally, the Spirit of God's presence in my life as a true child of God is being revealed more and more through my actions and my attitudes. I still sin and fall short of the glory of God, but if I am a believer, my attitude must be changing to reveal that I want to be good and that I long to be made right again. Also, my attitude towards believers ought to be one of compassion and mercy, seeing them as fellow heirs of the kingdom of God and as such, deserving of my respect and love. Again, these things aren't immediate but they grow in me over time if I have been changed by God.

This is my understanding of faith working together with works.

What James is saying is that the one who is justified by God demonstrates that he or she is a child of God by his or her works.

This is a good one line summary of what he is saying.

Most of the mis-understanding that I have seen of what James says regarding faith and works comes from people reading and interpreting from English rather than getting back into what the word "faith" means in Greek. In Greek, the word "faith" and "faithfulness" are one and the same. Thus if you take the relevant verses in james and use the word "faithfulness" where the word "faith" is, it will help to give a clearer perspective, and one in agreement with what you said above.

Essentially in the Greek it will read like this - If one truly has faith that is demonstrated by faithfulness. If one is not be faithful in their works, then can it be said that one has faith?

Hello,

I've heard it said that Catholics believe that we are justified by faith and works. What works do they have in mind? I'd like to get a Catholic perspective on this.

Rob

They are variously described in Scripture:

The commandments:

Matthew 19 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The will of the Father:

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Good Deeds/Good Works

Romans 2

7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

Works of Charity

Galatians 5 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.

Matt 25 gets into specific deeds which we call "Corporal works of mercy".

Matthew 25 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?

James continues:

James 1 27 Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The problem, De Maria, is this. No one other than Jesus has ever lived up what they should be doing with respect to any of those, therefore if those play any part in our salvation, we are without hope.

They are variously described in Scripture:

The commandments:

Matthew 19 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The will of the Father:

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Good Deeds/Good Works

Romans 2

7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

Works of Charity

Galatians 5 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.

Matt 25 gets into specific deeds which we call "Corporal works of mercy".

Matthew 25 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?

James continues:

James 1 27 Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,

Thanks for weighing in. Appreciate the input.

By the way, I responded to your post in the discussion re: 1 Peter 3:19 and purgatory:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/christianity-catholic-268941-12.html#post1332175

Rob

The problem, De Maria, is this. No one other than Jesus has ever lived up what they should be doing with respect to any of those, therefore if those play any part in our salvation, we are without hope.

That is why it is necessary to remain on the vine. It is only by the grace of Jesus Christ that we can walk in the works prepared for us from all time. But Scripture is clear, we will be saved or condemned based on our works:

Romans 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his works.


Eternal life who those who persist in good works

7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

Condemnation to every man who worketh evil

8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.


That seems eminently clear.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria is right.
There are also works Jesus commanded such as to be baptize, to partake of the Eucharist, and to "love one another as I have loved you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I like where this thread is headed. I see though, as tj3 saw, that there comes a point where we wonder just how many works we have to do to be justified.

I believe there are 2 guides to this:
The spirit of god in us, and love. We have faith in god, but the resulting works are of no use to god, unless they are done in his will, and out of love.

As de maria said, we are to remain in the true vine, jesus. This is a spiritual saying, in that we must hear jesus' will to do it, by loving him and listening to him. Also, reading scripture(bible), we'll understand the words in agreement with that will.

We will begin to act out of love, producing good fruit for the kingdom of heaven. We're transformed into that which jesus is, by obeying his word, and acting on it out of faith.

Then the fruits of his spirit are evident in us, and we are no longer under the faithfulness to law, but to that which is living, and full of love.

i like where this thread is headed. i see though, as tj3 saw, that there comes a point where we wonder just how many works we have to do to be justified....

I'm glad you said that. That highlights a profound difference between Protestants and Catholics.

We (Catholics) don't give ourselves credit for works. We don't judge ourselves. God does. Scripture is clear on that score.

1 Corinthians 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

In complete contrast, Protestants JUDGE themselves saved. They take credit for the faith they claim to have. Usurping the judgement of God, putting themselves, in fact, above God:

1 Cor 10

12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So then, de maria, are you saying that works are judged of god for our salvation?
I ask because, as you say, that protestants judge themselves saved. I understand there are protestants that will say salvation is not by works.

There will always be a confusion about Faith & (vs.) Works. This confusion arises because we don't have enough teaching in the church today defining and explaining JUSTIFICATION & SANCTIFICATION.

JUSTIFICATION (the same word as RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Greek Bible) means that we who have no righteousness of our own have been made righteous by God through the blood sacrifice of Jesus the Christ for our sin/unrighteousness. God has declared us "just" through savior as we now have Jesus' righteousness without any works on our part, but completely by faith.
Just a few teachings on the above:

Eph 2:3-10
Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV

Rom 3:22-28
There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood . He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
NIV

SANCTIFICATION (in the narrow sense of living as the holy person God desires now that we have been saved by Christ) means that we have been "set apart" by God to reflect His love and glory in the world. As God wanted Adam and Eve and all their descendents to reflect Him, we are now being restored to the image of God in which man was created.
Though we who have been born again are now very active in desiring and carrying out good work for the sake of our neighbors, we still need the Holy Spirit of God working in us to empower us to more and more separate outselves from sin (thoughts, words, deeds) and answer the call of God to minister to the world(the saved and the lost).

It is confusing and greatly dangerous to add works to achieving salvation. If our salvation is in any way dependent on us, we will always have room to doubt that God's love is sufficient to cover our lack. Our only "part" is receiving and keeping by faith what God has given us as a complete gift. No room on our part to doubt... or boast over others.

Matt 7:15-19
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
NIV

Luke 6:43-45

43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
NIV

John 15:5-6

5 "I am the vine ; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
NIV

James 2:14-19

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder.
NIV

The point is that salvation is by faith in God's promised free gift... and those who being changed by the message of God's love WILL do good works.

As one of the church fathers put it: "Before a Christian can ask what good works he should be doing, he is already doing them".

Here's my argument in summary. In order for me to be justified by God and receive mercy, God has to extend mercy to me and justify me. I am a sinner and I cannot earn my salvation... I can only hope in the mercy of God. If I have been a recipient of God's mercy and forgiveness, there ought to be a change in me, if not immediately, at least over time. I'm not saying that I need to be producing all kinds of good works. Fundamentally, the Spirit of God's presence in my life as a true child of God is being revealed more and more through my actions and my attitudes. I still sin and fall short of the glory of God, but if I am a believer, my attitude must be changing to reveal that I want to be good and that I long to be made right again. Also, my attitude towards believers ought to be one of compassion and mercy, seeing them as fellow heirs of the kingdom of God and as such, deserving of my respect and love. Again, these things aren't immediate but they grow in me over time if I have been changed by God.

This is my understanding of faith working together with works.[/QUOTE]

When the day of judgement comif then we will know in our hearts who's good and who's not. There is no one left to guide us now Jesus has gone so we can only hope that we are right!

That is why it is necessary to remain on the vine. It is only by the grace of Jesus Christ that we can walk in the works prepared for us from all time. But Scripture is clear, we will be saved or condemned based on our works:

Then we all go to hell for the following three reasons:

1) No one has kept the law perfectly:

Rom 3:23-24
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV

2) If you fail in even one point, you have been found guilty of the whole law:

James 2:10-11
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
NKJV

3) Eternal life does not come through the law:

Gal 3:21-22
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
NKJV

It is true that if you keep the law and have never sinned, then you will be saved. But scripture says no one has done it, so if you depend upon keep the law, then you will end up in hell.

Lastly, who is the law for?

1 Tim 1:9-11
The law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV


Thus if you place yourself under the law, then... read for yourself.

De Maria,
You hit the nail on the head well with that.
"Judge not lest you be judged" also applies to self judgment about being saved.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria,
You hit the nail on the head well with that.
"Judge not lest you be judged" also applies to self judgment about being saved.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, read the rest of the passage - it says to use righteousness judgment! Secondly, it does not prohibit judging oneself, or God would not have added this to the Bible.

1 Cor 11:31
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
NKJV

Tj3,
Right you are.
Thanks,
Fred

I understand here, that there's a hope of pleasing god through works. As with salvation, I believe that the works god gives us to do are even from him:

Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, [even] our Lord Jesus,
Hbr 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

i understand here, that there's a hope of pleasing god through works. as with salvation, i believe that the works god gives us to do are even from him:

Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, [even] our Lord Jesus,
Hbr 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

We have nothing of merit to offer God or to pay for our sins. If we did, then Jesus' sacrifice would have been in vain.

cogs,
You are right.
We can and should try to please God by doing what He asks and commands us to do.
Those are the works he want from us.
The bible does tell us to "WORK out our salvation."
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

cogs,
You are right.
We can and should try to please God by doing what He asks and commands us to do.
Those are the works he want from us.
The bible does tell us to "WORK out our salvation."
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)


Scripture also says that salvation is not by or of works.

Tj3,
Right again works alone does not save.
The bible says that faith with works saves.
Faith without works is dead, so the bible says in many ways and places.
Salvation come from the grace of God when we do what He says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura, it seems we are in agreement that the work of jesus is ongoing in our lives. Therefore, as jesus said, that he only does what he sees the father doing, it's important to be able to see what the father is doing.

Tj3,
Right again works alone does not save.
The bible says that faith with works saves.


No Fred it doesn't. In fact it says the exact opposite.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV



Faith without works is dead, so the bible says in many ways and places.

Right, and time and again the context of this, both in English and Koine Greek has been shown to you, but you ignore the context. First and foremost, as I showed previously in this thread,the Greek ford for "faith" is the same word as "faithfulness". Thus "faithfulness without works is dead". If you are claiming to have faith in God and we see no works as evidence, then you are not being faithful to your professing or to God, therefore do you really have faith?

This is in concert with the context in English also. Further, scripture does not contradict itself. You cannot take one verse out of context and then ignore Ephesians 2:8, for example.

It is Jesus we look to not GOD those Jesus relays to us his blessing.
GOD will judge us but we will not judge the almighty the Messier shell relay info to God but only if he is not forgotten.

I'm just a Shire Lad

Rob - Here's my argument in summary. In order for me to be justified by God and receive mercy, God has to extend mercy to me and justify me. I am a sinner and I cannot earn my salvation...I can only hope in the mercy of God. If I have been a recipient of God's mercy and forgiveness, there ought to be a change in me, if not immediately, at least over time. I'm not saying that I need to be producing all kinds of good works. Fundamentally, the Spirit of God's presence in my life as a true child of God is being revealed more and more through my actions and my attitudes. I still sin and fall short of the glory of God, but if I am a believer, my attitude must be changing to reveal that I want to be good and that I long to be made right again. Also, my attitude towards believers ought to be one of compassion and mercy, seeing them as fellow heirs of the kingdom of God and as such, deserving of my respect and love. Again, these things aren't immediate but they grow in me over time if I have been changed by God.
This is my understanding of faith working together with works.

jakester:

Your views are well presented; most Catholics would have a hard time disagreeing with you. I didn't see anything that would stand out as different from my understanding of Catholicism except for our respective approach to God's grace of faith.

It's my understanding that God's graces are supernatural gifts to mankind for salvation, requiring the cooperation of the recipient. We can discern two types of grace. The first is actual grace which is a benevolent gift or an unwarranted gratuitous gift. Actual graces include those things we receive such as good looks, patients, intelligence, wisdom, etc. The second type is the supernatural sanctifying graces which are given men to obtain holiness. Sanctifying grace prepares for redemption in that it predisposes one to holiness.

In either event, grace is a gift. And just like any other gift, there is an effort to reach out on the part of the benefactor, and an act of cooperation in the receipt of the gift; it takes two individuals, two distinct wills; one giving the other receiving. There must be a synergism between God and man when these graces are conferred; the free human will and the will of God (the Holy Spirit) work together to bring about spiritual regeneration or salvation. [cf. Trent, Sixth Session, Cannon IV] An opposing view would be the Lutheran view would reject any type of cooperation with the concept of “once saved always saved”, the certitude of justification. The Lutheran views man as depraved and as such saving graces must be forced on man. Thus, Luther rejects “free will” while Calvin's views of a faith as fiduciary denying that man can be holy, a faith that merely covers sin. Catholics however believe in a justification through penance and good works actually removes sin. Consequently the Catholic “faith” is much different from the 'struck by lightning' knowledge that waits for a predestined salvation and requires work. Part of a continuing participation in faith, Catholics operate within the sanctifying graces offered in the sacraments; a “work” by most Protestant definitions. Whereby, Catholics hold that to achieve a supernatural end the “works” of the sacraments provide Catholics with the necessary supernatural means. Sacramental graces are effectual, unlike Zwiglian grace that memorializes a profession, or Luther's sacraments that are merely fiduciary.

The slight deviations held by some Protestants miss the essence of the two natures of Christ, man and God; faith and works. Christ may have died for our sins, (an act of God's merciful grace), but he lived along with his mother and disciples not only to hear or speak the word of God, but to personify, “do it” – unquestionably a “work” as defined by most Protestant faiths. (cf Luke 8:21)

The Vatican Council (III, 3) says that "faith is a supernatural virtue by which we with the inspiration and assistance of God's grace, believe those things to be true which He has revealed". I often think of works as a requitement of faith and cooperation between gratuitous grace of faith and works. It takes both acceptance and cooperation with God's grace of Truth for salvation to be efficacious. Based on Scripture, it's not the usual nature of God to strike us dumb with an irresistible faith.

When read with the apostolic teachings of the Catholic Church we can see that Christ lived and worked his faith both internally and externally. He didn't simply “believe” in God, he was a “doer” of God's words. So, it's no wonder that James gives us the same advice, “[W]ith meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.” (James 1:21-24.) Furthermore, Paul teaches us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (cf Phil 2:12). In short live your faith; believing is simply not enough.

So, you can see that while we agree in principle, a Catholic would say that we are redeemed by both faith and works, not by “faith alone” as is sometime heard.

JoeT

It is Jesus we look to not GOD those Jesus relays to us his blessing.
GOD will judge us but we will not judge the almighty the Messier shell relay info to God but only if he is not forgotten.

Jesus is God.

A brief explanation:

We are saved by FAITH in the completed work of Calvary. We can and MUST know this.

Our FAITH is validated by our WORKS.

Simple, yes?

JoeT777,
Very well said.
The bible tells us often that we MUST work our faith for it to ve effective.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So, you can see that while we agree in principle, a Catholic would say that we are redeemed by both faith and grace, not by “faith alone” as is sometime heard.

JoeT

The key here is how you define grace - grace in scripture means unmerited favour. Therefore works plays no part in salvation, nor do you find anything in scripture which would say that works plays any part in salvation.

JoeT777,
Very well said.
The bible tells us often that we MUST work our faith for it to ve effective.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

No, it says that what we do validates our faith.

A brief explanation:

We are saved by FAITH in the completed work of Calvary. We can and MUST know this.

Our FAITH is validated by our WORKS.

Simple, yes?

I don’t understand, explain why God would need for those who surround me, validate the grace of faith given me? Should we go to Church, pick up our validation cards, and when asked if we have faith, show our proper “validation”? Or maybe we should cooperate with the grace given by God for love of God?

JoeT

Tj3,
Wrong ! The bible says many places and ins several ways that works are necessary
Here's and example.
We are to bear fruit. That's work.
Those who do not bear fruit will will suffer.
So Jesus says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Wrong ! The bible says many places and ins several ways that works are necessary
Here's and example.
We are to bear fruit. That's work.
Those who do not bear fruit will will suffer.

I note that you give no reference. Perhaps you mean this one:

Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

Note that this refers to those who bear fruit who are not saved, in which case the fruit that they bear by trying to keep the law led to death; or those who are saved bear fruit by serving the spirit - but they are first saved, so the fruit that they bear is the result of salvation.

Indeed, Jesus says that we cannot bear good fruit unless we are first saved:

John 15:4-5
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
NKJV

Where is the verse that says that works are required for us to be saved?

Tj3,
I see that you personally interpret that your way.
Of course that is your right to do so.
Yes with Jesus help I can do the work of bearing good fruit.
So you see I agree with what that passage clearly says and demonstrates.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I see that you personally interpret that your way.

No interpretation. I read what God says in His words. Let's look at these passages once again:

Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

John 15:4-5
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
NKJV

Do you have a private interpretation that differs with the clear reading of what the Bible says? If so, please explain how you can turn the meaning of this around to say something different than the clear reading of what the passage says?


Yes with Jesus help I can do the work of bearing good fruit.

If you are doing it with Jesus' help, then you are speaking as a person who professes to be saved, thus the works are not for salvation. You defeated your own private interpretation.

If I am wrong and if in fact you are saying that you are not saved and trying to earn your salvation through works, please advise.

BTW, I note that as of yet you have not posted a single verse which says that works are required for salvation.

Tj3,
I looked at them and did not change what I said.
Works alone do not save, but faith plus works do save.
WORK out your salvation with fear and trebling.
A faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD!!
So the bible says. So I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I looked at them and did not change what I said.

And you have so far failed to explain how your private interpretation changes them to mean the opposite of what they say.


Works alone do not save, but faith plus works do save.

Why won't you provide us with a verse which says this?


WORK out your salvation with fear and trebling.

This is speaking to those who are already saved about how they should behave as believers:

Phil 2:12-18
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. 17 Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 For the same reason you also be glad and rejoice with me.
NKJV

Once again, works follow salvation.


A faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD!!

Why do you keep repeating this one after your private interpretation has been refuted so many times, over so many years on so many boards?

First and foremost, as I showed previously in this thread,the Greek ford for "faith" is the same word as "faithfulness". Thus "faithfulness without works is dead". If you are claiming to have faith in God and we see no works as evidence, then you are not being faithful to your professing or to God, therefore do you really have faith?

Scripture does not contradict itself. You cannot take one verse out of context and then ignore Ephesians 2:8, for example.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

The Devils your angel!

You are trick by your own ways who wants to be religious.

And before you ask I lost my faith in the bible along time ago and I probably never get it back now!

The Devils your angel!

You are trick by your own ways who wants to be religious.

This is not the discussion board. Please stay on topic which is to deal with the question raised in the OP, not to attack other participatants or their beliefs.

Tj3,
Please get it right, Tom Smith,
It is nor my personal interpretation as yours is.
I believe the bible literally.
The bible literally says that faith without works is dead.
No matter what you say or try to refute the bible will not change.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Please get it right, Tom Smith,
It is nor my personal interpretation as yours is.

Fred, you are telling me that those verses mean the opposite of what they say.


I believe the bible literally.

Then explain how you come to the conclusion that these verses do not mean what they say.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

John 15:4-5
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
NKJV


The bible literally says that faith without works is dead.

It does indeed. What it does not say is that faith with works saves. Why do you keep repeating this one after your private interpretation has been refuted so many times, over so many years on so many boards?

First and foremost, as I showed previously in this thread,the Greek ford for "faith" is the same word as "faithfulness". Thus "faithfulness without works is dead". If you are claiming to have faith in God and we see no works as evidence, then you are not being faithful to your professing or to God, therefore do you really have faith?

Scripture does not contradict itself. You cannot take one verse out of context and then ignore Ephesians 2:8, for example.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

No matter what you say or try to refute the bible will not change.

This is not the discussion board. Please stay on topic which is to deal with the question raised in the OP, not to attack other participatants or their beliefs.

Look I wasn't being nasty because if I were I would have used the devils name OK!

I will try to stay on track just need conversion!

Look I wasn't being nasty because if I were I would have used the devils name OK!

I will try to stay on track just need conversion!

My point was that this is not the discussion board and there are rules of interaction.

Tj3,
Are you of the Christian Faith I just said I was sorry what do you want out of me blood:(

Tj3,
Are you of the Christian Faith I just said I was sorry what do you want out of me blood:(

I did not see you say that you were sorry, but nonetheless that is not necessary. I would just like to see you join in the discussion.

And yes, I am a Christian.

Tj3,
I'm sorry but I do not agree with you.
Some times I do but often not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I'm sorry but I do not agree with you.
Some times I do but often not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You are of course welcome to have your own interpretations. It is unfortunate, though, that you are unwilling to explain how you came to those interpretations.

Tj3,
Don't try to twist that. The IS a false accusation.
I do and have posted biblically why I believe as I do.
I see you are back at your old self again.
How sad.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Don't try to twist that. The IS a false accusation.
I do and have posted biblically why I believe as I do.

Fred - look at this thread. I asked you several times to explain how you came to your personal interpretation of the verses that I quoted and you didn't. But I do respect your right to hold your own interpretations.

Tj3 -

Hey man, just let it go... I understand what you are getting at and I personally respect your commitment to sound biblical interpretation. But you have to just drop back and punt sometimes because not everyone is on the same page. I'm saying that because you are really starting to look foolish and unwise... I love you though, man; I respect what you are trying to do.

You know what you believe and carefully interepret and articulate that position but you cannot police others... you can try to argue your position and be helpful in showing others where they may be wrong and you can also be willing to allow people to challenge your own interpretations at times but where neither you or another is convinced the other is right, what can you do but just move on?

I'm saying this with respect and brotherly love.

Tj3 -

hey man, just let it go...I understand what you are getting at and I personally respect your commitment to sound biblical interpretation. But you have to just drop back and punt sometimes because not everyone is on the same page. I'm saying that because you are really starting to look foolish and unwise...I love you though, man; I respect what you are trying to do.

You know what you believe and carefully interepret and articulate that position but you cannot police others...you can try to argue your position and be helpful in showing others where they may be wrong and you can also be willing to allow people to challenge your own interpretations at times but where neither you or another is convinced the other is right, what can you do but just move on?

I'm saying this with respect and brotherly love.

Jakester,
Fred and I go back a long ways. I keep hoping someday that he will actually interact on scripture. Fred's refrain when challenged is to simply make all sorts of accusations, so it does not bother me.

Maybe it would be in order to define "salvation". Does it happen immediately as a result of a spiritual crisis, or does it happen over a period? Can we know that we are saved, or do we only hope that when our life here is finished, we will be saved?
This discussion of faith and works hinges on what we believe on the subject of salvation.
Do we need another thread?

Jakester,
Right on.
The prolelm with Tj3 id that he like to twist things and make false accusaons so much that it becomes annoying.
But I'm about to let it go and ignore him more. He is just a waste of time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Galveston1,
You are right.
And
If you think we need a new thread please start one.
I'd be interested in that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jakester,
Right on.
The prolelm with Tj3 id that he like to twist things and make false accusaons so much that it becomes annoying.

Just like I said Fred, you never change. When you cannot address scripture, you get nasty.


But I'm about to let it go and ignore him more. He is just a waste of time.

As you wish Fred. I remain willing to discuss scripture with you anytime. The door will never close.

Something weird happened to me when I was younger in my teens and I wonder if anyone can help and remember this word OK... it is impossible to float but when I woke from a dream one night I was face to the ceiling how or why did this happen to me.

WakkieRob,
I do not understand what you mean.
Almost every time I wake up from a dream, no matter what the drearm was, I face the ceiling.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What I mean was I was floating in the air up against the ceiling and it was after a horrible dream I fell down on my bed then to the floor which really hurt so I know it wasn't a dream. Do you know what happened arcura

I wasn't on any medication or drinking or drugs either I will never forget it and that was one time out of a few different events

WakkieRob,
I think that you WERE dreaming and fell out of bed.
The reason I think that us because I have had similar experiences years ago.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

WakkieRob,
Was it like actually being in your dream and have all your senses functioning perfectlly all right or was it like really awake like you are now?

adam7gur,
Those are good questions for WakkieRob.
Thanks for asking them.
I'm interested in that dream and fall he had.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

One of the primary concerns of all Christians is rendered to the simple question, “how can I be saved” (Cf. Acts 16:30). Many Catholics would answer, “With fear and trembling work out your salvation in Christ.” (Phil. 2: 12) Our Catholic faith is that which works by Charity. (C.f. ST. Basil of Caesarea, Letter 295) There are many who believe that the effect of Adam's sin was to make man as a worm, totally depraved and in capable of holiness. Therefore, such a depraved man is incapable of working out his salvation. He must wait till his name shows up on the roles of God's predestined saints. Thus, the logic continues, since man is incapable of holiness, he cannot cooperate with God's will and once predestined to be saved God saves always. However, this logic sets a scriptural dichotomy between faith and works that was never intended by the writers.

It would seem to me that a Scripture deemed Holy, inspired by God would be in harmony, one theological principle relative to another. What are we to make of the theological principle of faith alone as “by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified” (Rom 3:20) compared with “So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.” (James 2:17) Are we to assume that the Holy Spirit was schizophrenic when he coined Scripture?

Obviously not; we're given the answer in the same chapter of Romans, “By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.” That is we should be, “mindful of the work of your faith and labour and charity: and of the enduring of the hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before God and our Father “ (1 Thess 1:3); i.e. the work of your faith is hope, charity, and most of all love of God.

So as James tells us, faith is of little value without work; So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?. 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?. (James 2:17-21) All of which gets me back to my original comment: God reaches out with his gift of faith, we in turn cooperate by reaching out for that gift for the love of God. Thus the working of a synergism between God's grace of faith and works of holiness

JoeT

Joe, it is interesting that none of the scripture that you quoted supports the belief that we must do works to be saved.

JoeT777,
Excellent post.
I noticed the Tj3 refuses to understand it.
He can not grasp that it takes faith and works.
Neither one by itself will save.
So Scripture says in many ways.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777,
Excellent post.
I noticed the Tj3 refuses to understand it.
He can not grasp that it takes faith and works.
Neither one by itself will save.
So Scripture says in many ways.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

What I do grasp is what scripture says.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

What I do not understand is why anyone would reject the clear and specific word of God to follow the opinions of men.

Tj3,
It is obvious to me that you do not understand what JoeT777 said.
That is the point I was making.
I know you claim otherwise, BUT that is was is obvious to me.
You are I agree on most of what the bible says, but on the few issues that we do not, I fear, that we will never agree with each other.
Time MAY change that, but I think not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
It is obvious to me that you do not understand what JoeT777 said.

Fred,

You need to understand that when people disagree with you, it does not mean that they do not understand (that attitude seems rather arrogant), but rather more often than not, they indeed do understand and that is why they disagree. Especially since you rarely take the time to interact on matters of scripture.

Tj3,
I do interact on Scripture MY way.
Just because you don't like my way doe not mean I will change my way.
You do it yours, I'll do it mine.
Note that I have not complained about your way.
I hope that is OK with you.
If not, that's OK with me also.
Fred

Tj3,
I do interact on Scripture MY way.

By refusing to discuss it and simply telling us your opinion.

It weren't no bloody dream it's like a Demon which watched over me. Yeh that's it it tells me all the bad things that's going to happen to me and shakes my bed and holds me down like I'm Paralyzed. GOD forgive me I'm Possessed!

You are not possessed, you are under attack!

adam7gur, what you mean

I will put my thoughts in order and I will come back to this.

The last dream was as if I was inside someone and a house was on fire the person ran into the building could here child crying inside I have dreamed these dreams before but not so clearly!
These dreams don't happen all the time but I remember each one clearly.
Do you think I'm going mad or is this some sort of sign about the future!

Wakkie.
No you are not going mad or possessed.
I have had similar dreams and remember them clearly.
The come and go. It depends on how stressed out I am at times.
Most such dreams, I think, are linked to stress of one kind or another.
Whem happy times or normal times come they go away.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

WakkieRob
As I wrote you are not possessed , you are under attack. Let me explain!
Matthew 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Those things happened to Jesus .The devil taketh Him and setteth him .It seems that the devil had the authourity to taketh Him and setteth Him otherwise it would not happen , but of course Jesus was not possessed , He was under attack. When we have an expirience with evil spirits it does not mean we are possessed.A possesed man is committing sin , you did not sin by floating in the air , you were simply under attack by evil spirits.
In my opinion what you can do is the next time that something like this will happen , call out for help , call out for Jesus ,He is the only one those spirits are afraid of.No matter what you think about yourself , He will not leave you alone in this if you call for Him.Test Him!He likes being tested by honest hearts.
That spirit telling you bad things that will happen to you is a liar. No one controls your future , not even God. God knows your future but He will not mess with it, he has given you freedom to do whatever you want with your life.That evil spirit is telling you things that if you believe them will happen to you.Don't fall for that! You control your life and God is always there for you like a Father to His child.Do you remember the agony that you had in your dream with the burning house and the crying child?Well God is trying to show you how He feels for you.He is in agony because you are that child in that burning house and He cannot save you unless you call out for Him. DO IT NOW!
Hope I helped!

adam7gur,
I liked you answer to WakkieRob.
If he is being attacked, as he well may be, Jesus is his answer to that.
One of may favorite prayers is one I say when I am being tempted.
It is, "Lord please take this temptation from me".
I am pleased to say that it always works.
Apparently Jesus likes to help when a person is attacked by temptation for He answers in the positive.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred
Yes , "Lord please take this temptation from me" helps and if I may I would add to that the word '' resist '' just like our Lord did when He was tempted.He resisted through God's Word!

adam7gur,
Yes, Thanks much.
I have another favorite prayer that works well.
I believe that we were created in the image of God so I believe He has a sense of humor because we have one.
That prayer is this one.
"Lord please give me patience but I need it right now."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My heritage goes back along why in this country so I must be a true Englishman but what faith should best suit me or do you think I will find that out myself.

Oh, adam7gur thanks for your thingys from the bible and for explaining them this gives me great concern for thought so I will go away and think this through and if indeed your right then GOD bless your soul you deserve your throne.

Also a thank you and God bless you to arcura for his helpful gestures to.

Thou I am not a true member of the church my mum was a christian by faith and church was a big thing in my early days.

Schools and churches used to do a good service to youngsters what went wrong now all kids know how to do is be bad.

adam7gur,
Yes, Thanks much.
I have another favorite prayer that works well.
I believe that we were created in the image of God so I believe He has a sense of humor because we have one.
That prayer is this one.
"Lord please give me patience but I need it right now."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My wife has a sticker on the fridge with that message :)
I totally agree with you on God having humor , I always say that too!!

WakkieRob
There's only one faith.The faith of Jesus Christ . Do not rouble yourself too much with what church you should attend right now , you will find that as you grow in Christ.
Trust your Bible!
I wish you all the best my friend !
God bless you!

Enough about my experiences what about yours what made you turn to Jesus and GOD!

This is to you both adam7gur and arcura.

WakkieRob,
I was raised a Lutheran and active in that early on starting as predsident of the Sunday School.
I was a Catholic basher doing my best to trun people away from that church.
I was challenged to use the bible to prove how wrong the Catholics were.
What happened was that I found that the Catholic Church was right in so many ways that I thought was wrong.
I went to the Catholic to find out more and to understand more of what it taught in areas I was having trouble with.
I found that often what outsiders said about the Church was wrong because like me they did not understand the teaching.
So over 30 years ago I became a Catholic.
It was a journey I've been very happy to make and I'm still on that Journey learning more and more.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

Unlike arcura, I did not turn to a denomination, nor is my faith based on the hate or love of any manmade organization, rather my faith is based upon coming to realize that Jesus Christ is who He said that he was, and I believed the gospel, and received Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

When I was about 11 years old, I was reading the Bible one day and came to the realization that this book was not just a series of nice stories, but rather it was God's word to us, and the gospel was the real account of God coming to earth in the flesh as a man to take our place and our penalty for sin. I came to the relization that I had a decision to make, to either accept or reject Him as saviour. I chose to receive Him as Lord and Saviour.

Tj3,
Thanks for that information.
My faith does not depend on the love or hate of any denomination either.
In fact, as you know, I defend people of other faiths and denominations to believe as they want to.
Peace and kindness,'Fred

Tj3,
Thanks for that information.
My faith does not depend on the love or hate of any denomination either.

I am glad to hear that. You comments seem to suggest that your faith was a matter of hate of one denomination until you submitted yourself to it.


In fact, as you know, I defend people of other faiths and denominations to believe as they want to.

Everyone but non-Catholic Christians.

Tj3,
Don't twist what I said as usual.
At one time long ago I was a Catholic basher but that does not mean I hated Catholics or their Church, I just thought, at that time. That is was very wrong. I was the one who was wrong.
I defend everyone's right to believe as the want to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I am a Greek living in Greece so naturally I was raised a Greek orthodox Christian.When I was 27 and after reading the Bible I realized that being a Greek orthodox Christian was not what I was looking for ! So after a two year of joining some Pentecostal church here in Greece and after realizing that no matter how gifted some people were ( pastors etc. )they could not bring God's justice within the church.A wicked spirit of unjustice and twisting words and truths was controlling the ''head'' of the church but the saddest thing was that the rest of us were depending on them rather than depending on God and that's why God did to us what He did to Israel through the Babylonians.Like those people that moved to Babylon to save their lives , I myself joined today's ''Babylon'' to save my spiritual life.Todays Babylon is living far away from ''Jerusalem'', but not becoming a Babylonian.Always praying and never forgetting about ''Jerusalem'' which to us today is THE CHURCH!We are waiting for God to send us ''back home''!!
I suppose all this sounds hard to understand but if you read the Bible describing the situation of Israel in the time of Isaiah ,Jeremiah and Ezekiel you will see how things were and if you continue reading Daniel and a little bit further on you will see what we are waiting for !
Sorry for saying so many things !

adam7gur
Thanks for your thoughts.
Yes we are to depend on God and I believe pastors a meant to lead us to God and to depend on Him.
Most pastors that I know have done that and still do.
That is with the exception of those I knew who have gone home to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

God is a old man with a white beard that must be u arcura

My pics change just thought u like to see my Son!

I hope one day like in the days of the bible that there are followers that can save us like Moses and the like. And that we can all see the Micricales 4 ourselves so that the people can believe again without this shed of dote.

WakkieRob
That's a great son you have!
Surely I like his picture more than yours :)
Take care !

I defend everyone's right to believe as the want to.


I am glad to hear about this change.

Tj3,
Don't try to twist it.
I have always defended everyone's right to believe as the want to and you know that from the many years we both have been on boards together.
Don't TRY to make it seem otherwise. That is being false.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Don't try to twist it.
I have always defended everyone's right to believe as the want to and you know that from the many years we both have been on boards together.

I guess that is why you were so abusive of non-Catholic Christians and their beliefs.

Like you say, we have known each other for years, and you description of your attitude towards non-catholic Christians is not in any way representative of your past behaviour. That is why I indicated my appreciation of the change.

The best way to demonstrate your commitment to this principle, Fred, is not to go around telling everyone, but to demonstrate it through your actions.

Tj3,
That was over 30 years ago.
When will you stop bashing The Catholic Church.
Your web site still continues to do that as I did long, long ago..
Fred

Tj3,
That was over 30 years ago.

Your attacks on non-Catholic Christians were no further back than last month if not sooner! You forget - I know you!


When will you stop bashing The Catholic Church.
Your web site still continues to do that as I did long, long ago..

See Fred? Anyone who disagrees with you, you falsely accuse of bashing.

Tj3,
I did long ago what you continue to do today.
Prove what you said about me attacking someone's faith belief.
I do not do that.
Fred

Prove what you said about me attacking someone's faith belief.

Fred, your attack on my website, which you disagree with, was proof enough. You attack non-Catholic Christians who dare to disagree with you by accusing them of bashing, and in other places of being liars, twisters, and many other names and false accusations. The long history of name-calling is additional proof. I can certainly bring up evidence of your name-calling - you know it! Do you deny it? (careful! - the evidence does not go away!)

Tj3,
Wrong again.
I deal with truth.
Please forgive me, but I intend to ignore you form now on.
Fred

adam7gur, yep your right I'm a ugly b##***d but hay were all made in Gods image remember OK!

I'm not in a religion but I heard someone say that "Not to judge
other as they judge you"

>Thread Closed<
As it has moved completely away from the original question and turn nasty in places.