Today, in Church, our pastor talked about politics and who to vote for without actually endorsing a candidate. Although, it seemed obvious, I could be wrong, it seemed like he made his points for McCain. He didn't like the way Obama answered the question on marriage by saying "for me, as a Christian" and said he should have instead said as a Christian! I don't see anything wrong with that answer, I think our pastor was looking to deep in that question. Of course our pastor didn't say Obama's name so I googled it and it was from Rick Warren's interview. Anyway, the whole point I guess I am trying to make is that politics in Church is a very sensitive topic. Today I felt like I was told who I have to vote for. I know as a Christian that abortion, homosexuality, etc is wrong but does that mean I have to vote for a republican? I don't approve of those things but those things will not change because they are going to happen no matter what. The whole political system is corrupt!
Please respond.

Thanks

nao381,

I don't think anyone should tell you how to vote, including your Pastor. For myself, I vote according to my Bible but I don't need my Pastor to tell me that. I personally think that views on political matters should stay out of the pulpit. ( that includes ol Jeremiah Wright's! Church too... ha)

Vote how your heart and morals tell you to. Not your pastor. Or you're friends. Or whoever.

Vote on the issues that matter most to you. Study the issues and make an educated decision. Your opinion is no more or less important than anyone else's.

Your pastor can not (or should not) endorse a political candidate at any level. In this country non profit organizations may not have political affiliations. If this policy is violated, their non profit status will be revoked.

It should be easy, a christian should be pro life, who is pro life among the choices.

A christian should want a moral value on the nation, who has or wants that.

A christian must look at their values as a christian and desire for this to move back to being a christian nation.

Personally I don't see that a good choice in either.

But of course yes, other non profit groups got laws passed to stop churches, ( silly that non profit pro abortion groups, or even non profit pro gun groups) can all support candidates but religions cannot.

Of course the fact that the nation is not suppose to pass laws restricting religion, well lets not get that silly constitution in the way of controlling religion.

How would ANY president be able to make this "move back to being a christain nation?"

Thanks guy/gals for your answers. I am a very open minded guy but today at Church was the first time I felt uncomfortable with such topics. I just feel like there are other issues that are important too and that is why I wanted some advice. Thanks again!

II Jn 1:10-11
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
(KJV)

To vote for one you know is opposed to your Christian values is worse than bidding him/her God speed. I wouldn't want to face Jesus after doing so.

Yes, it is easy, the president picks the supreme court members, as of late they are making law not really since they go far beyond ruling according to the US const.

So if we keep electing real christian presidents, real christian senators, real christian house members, then soon our nation would return to moral views and laws.

It is just christians don't think they should vote their faith because of the lack of living their faith

To vote for one you know is opposed to your Christian values is worse than bidding him/her God speed. I wouldn't want to face Jesus after doing so.
So if neither candidate supports my Christian values, then what do I do? Stay home on election day?

My dad was a pastor and never talked politics from the pulpit or even casually with parishioners. That is as it should be.

yes, it is easy, the president picks the supreme court members, as of late they are making law not really since they go far beyond ruling according to the US const.

So if we keep electing real christian presidents, real christian senators, real christian house members, then soon our nation would return to moral views and laws.

It is just christians don't think they should vote thier faith because of the lack of living thier faith

I understand what you are saying but picking a "real christian president" is nearly impossible. To me it seems that no matter who you pick they will fall into corruption with all of Washington. Even if you pick a republican abortions will still happen, and these political leaders who say they are christian don't act like they are christians. So it makes it hard to vote.

I think that Christians should vote for the person who is most moral according to Christian ideals and teaching.
Frankly to me that means I can not vote for Obama.
Also is the fact that his voting record and what he says now are at odds with each other.
I can't believe what he says. I don't trust him at all.
I am very frightened that he might become president and destroy the USA.
Fred

I think that Christians should vote for the person who is most moral according to Christian ideals and teaching.
Frankly to me that means I can not vote for Obama.
Also is the fact that his voting record and what he says now are at odds with each other.
I can't believe what he says. I don't trust him at all.
I am very frightened that he might become president and destroy the USA.
Fred
So you will vote for a man who dated other women while married to a woman who was no longer the shapely model he had married and then dumped her when he found a wealthy woman he liked a lot more? You will vote for a man who does not hesitate to pepper his speech with vulgarities and obscenities? You will vote for a man who is good friends with a former criminal? Should I go on?

What's wrong with Obama's voting record and what he says now? If anyone can save the US and restore its reputation in the world, it's Obama.

Obama's foreign policy 'god' is master media manipulator and pathological Russophobe, Zbigniew Brzezinski.

Zbigniew Brzezinski has scared many Jewish voters and has fueled the fire of questioning about Obama's true feelings concerning Isreal.
Most Christian pastors fall into the Christain Zionist belief that we must do everything we can to allow Zionist Israel to succeed. There is absolutely no doubt as to where McCain and Palin stand on that issue.

"The massive aid to Israel is in effect a huge entitlement that enriches the relatively prosperous Israelis at the cost of the American taxpayer. Money being fungible, that aid also pays for the very settlements that America opposes and that impede the peace process."

Zbigniew Brzezinski
A Dangerous Exemption | Harowo.com — News and Analysis (http://harowo.com/2006/06/27/a-dangerous-exemption/)

As you can see from the quote, Mr. Brzezinski has made statements that the Zionist do not want to hear.
I like hearing them though. :)

Wondergirl
No I do not believe all that about MCain.
Obama's voting record and what He says today are opposites.
In the debates he was asked if he would appoint judges who were prochoice.
He said that he would appoint judges according to their judicial merits and did not answer the question because he is on record that he will make abortions easyer to get and would overturn the late term aborsions ban.
Not only that he says he will set up a time table for withdrawing our troops from Iraq.
That is militarily stupid.
One does NOT tell the ememy what one intendes to do.
He tell gun owners he will not take away their guns but has voted to do just that.
Have you read any of his books?
They will frighten you.
He is a racist and sides with the Molems.
The man is a great danger to the USA.
I do not like some things about McCain but he has far more experience that Obama who has served on the senate floor only 200 days.
Obama has never had to make an executive decision and he wants to be Chief Executive of the USA.
Obama has NO military experience bu he want to be commander in chief of our armed forces.
I could go on about how bad that guy is for several pages.
Fred.

No I do not believe all that about MCain.
All of what I said is public record, Fred.

In the debates he was asked if he would appoint judges who were prochoice.
He said that he would appoint judges according to their judicial merits and did not answer the question because he is on record that he will make abortions easyer to get and would overturn the late term aborsions ban.
Why else would one appoint a judge?
There is no way to make abortions easier to get! And remember, he has two daughters.
Late-term abortions only when the mother will die if it isn't done.

Not only that he says he will set up a time table for withdrawing our troops from Iraq.. . tell the enemy what we are going to do
Even Bush has said that. And Iraq isn't an enemy. We want them to run their own country again.

He tell gun owners he will not take away their guns but has voted to do just that.
Please quote what he said. He has never said this.

Have you read any of his books?
Yes, both of them.

He is a racist and sides with the Molems.
Fred, he is BLACK, or at least half black. He can't be a racist. HOW??
How does he side with the Muslims? I have several library volunteers who are Muslim. Does that mean I side with them too? What's wrong with Muslims?

McCain... has far more experience that Obama who has served on the senate floor only 200 days.
Obama was a state senator for 8 years and became a U.S. senator for 2 years and still is one. Neither man is ready to be POTUS. No one ever is. There is no way to train for that job. It is unique.

Obama has never had to make an executive decision and he wants to be Chief Executive of the USA.
Neither has McCain.

Obama has NO military experience bu he want to be commander in chief of our armed forces.
How did other Presidents who had never been in the military do it?

Consider God's Will being done as we do pray.. Thy Will be done on earth as in heaven.. then go vote!

This is a proven email to be true: Read
snopes.com: Huntley Brown -- Why I Can't Vote for Obama (http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/huntleybrown.asp)


Why I Can't Vote For Obama
By Huntley Brown

Dear Friends,
A few months ago I was asked for my perspective on Obama, I sent out an e-mail with a few points. With the election just around the corner I decided to complete my perspective. Those of you on my e-list have seen some of this before but its worth repeating..

First I must say who ever wins the election will have my prayer support. Obama needs to be commended for his accomplishments but I need to explain why I will not be voting for him.

Many of my friends process their identity through their blackness.

I process my identity through Christ. Being a Christian (a Christ follower) means he leads I follow. I can't dictate the terms he does because he is the leader.

I can't vote black because I am black I have to vote Christian because that's who I am. Christian first black second. Neither should anyone from the other ethnic groups vote because of ethnicity. 200 years from now I won't be asked if I was black or white. I will be asked if I know Jesus and accepted him as Lord and savior.

In an election there are many issues to consider but when a society gets abortion, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem-cell research, human cloning to name a few wrong economic concerns will soon not matter.

We need to follow Martin Luther King's words don't judge someone by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I don't know Obama so all I can go off is his voting record.

His voting record earned him the title of the most liberal senator in the US Senate in 2007.

NATIONAL JOURNAL: Obama: Most Liberal Senator in 2007 (01/31/2008)

To beat Ted Kennedy and Hilary Clinton as the most liberal senator, takes some doing.
Obama accomplished this feat in 2 short years. I wonder what would happen to America if he had four years to work with.

There is a reason planned parenthood gives him a 100 % ratings.
There is a reason the homosexual community supports him.
There is a reason Ahmadinejad, Chavez, Castro, Hamas etc loves him.
There is a reason he said he would nominate liberal judges to the supreme court.
There is a reason he voted against the infanticide bill.
There is a reason he voted No on the constitutional ban of same-sex marriage.
There is a reason he voted no on partial birth abortion.
There is a reason he voted no on confirming Justices Roberts and Alito. These two judges are conservatives and they have since overturned partial birth abortion. The same practice Obama wanted to continue.

Lets take a look at the practice he wanted to continue.

The 5 Step Partial Birth Abortion procedure
A. Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps.
(Remember this is a live baby)
B. The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
C. The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.
D. The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the hole.
E. The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
God help him.

There is a reason Obama opposed the parent notification law.

Think about this you can't give a kid an aspirin without parental notification but that same kid can have an abortion without parental notification. This is insane.

There is a reason he went to Jeremiah Wright's church for 20 years.

Obama tells us he has good judgement but he sat under Jeremiah Wright teaching for 20 years. Now he is condemning Wrights sermons. I wonder why now?

Obama said Jeremiah Wright led him to the Lord and discipled him. A disciple is one in training. Jesus told us in Matthew 28 v 19 - 20 Go and make disciples of all nations. This means reproduce yourself. Teach people to think like you, walk like you, talk like you believe what you believe etc. The question I have is what did Jeremiah Wright teach him?

Would you support a White President who went to a church which has tenants that said they have a

1. Commitment to the White Community
2. Commitment to the White Family
3. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
4. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community .
5. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
6. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
7. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System."
Would you support a President who went to a church like that?

Just change the word from white to black and you have the tennants of Obamas former church. If President Bush was a member of a church like this, he would be called a racist. Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton would have been marching outside.

This kind of church is a racist church. Obama did not wake up after 20 years and just discovered he went to a racist church. The church can't be about race. Jesus did not come for any particular race. He came for the whole world.

A church can't have a value system based on race. The churches value system has to be based on biblical mandate. It does not matter if its a white church or a black church its still wrong. Anyone from either race that attends a church like this would never get my vote.

Obama's former Pastor Jeremiah Wright is a disciple of liberal theologian James Cone, author of the 1970 book A Black Theology of Liberation. Cone once wrote: "Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him.

Cone is the man Obama's mentor looks up to. Does Obama believe this?

So what does all this mean for the nation?

In the past when the Lord brought someone with the beliefs of Obama to lead a nation it meant one thing judgement.

Read 1 Samuel 8. When Israel asked for a king.
First God says 1 Samuel 8 v 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."

Then God says
1 Samuel 8 v 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king
you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."
19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."
21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king."

Here is what we know for sure

God is not schizophrenic

He would not tell one person to vote for Obama and one to vote for McCain. As the scripture says a city divided against itself cannot stand, so obviously many people are not hearing from God.

Maybe I am the one not hearing but I know God does not change and Obama contradicts many things I read in scripture so I doubt it.

For all my friends who are voting for Obama can you really look God in the face and say Father based on your word, I am voting for Obama even though I know he will continue the genocidal practice of partial birth abortion.

He might have to nominate three or four supreme court justices, and I am sure he will be nominating liberal judges who will be making laws that are against you.

I also know he will continue to push for homosexual rights, even though you destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for this.I know I can look the other way because of the economy.

I could not see Jesus agreeing with many of Obama's positions. Finally I have two questions for all my liberal friends.

Since we know someone's value system has to be placed on the nation,

1 Whose value system should be placed on the nation.

2 Who should determine that this is the right value system for the nation?

Blessings,
Huntley Brown


Huntley Brown Music, Christian Concert Pianist (http://www.huntleybrown.com/)

Today I felt like I was told who I have to vote for...... The whole political system is corrupt!! Hello nao:

Not surprisingly, I'm going to answer your question from a different perspective.

Your church has been given an exemption from paying taxes - that's ANY taxes at all, because they're a religions organization. However, when a religions organization ventures into politics, like your pastor did, he risks his church's tax exempt status...

Your pastor knows that. He knows further, that his tax exemption is granted because the Constitution says so, and that from the standpoint of the Constitution, he is precluded from speaking about politics.

Generally, people on the right say that they want Supreme Court Judges on the bench who strictly interpret the Constitution...

Why is it OK for your pastor to VIOLATE the Constitution, a document that he purportedly supports??

Well, it isn't OK. In fact, somebody who picks and chooses which parts of the Constitution he is going to obey, isn't worthy of making political suggestions to me. To you either, for that matter.

Indeed, it's your church that's corrupted - not the political process, and your pastor should be reported to the IRS.

excon

A politician cannot very likely be successful in politics and be a complete Christian at the same time. His opponent will clean his clock.
If your pastor has helped establish your moral character, he doesn't have to tell you who to vote for, you will make the right choice or no choice.
I have a "former" pastor who likes to make everyone aware of his political choices (even brainwashing sessions for children's sermon). It is good to keep politics out of certain work and social settings. Don't assume everyone has the same opinion as you do and just because no one speaks up, doesn't mean you haven't made some enemies and they may get even without you ever knowing it. You just insulted their intelligence by essentially telling them that they are an idiot for backing their idiot candidate. Paybacks are H and revenge is a dish best served cold as they say.

Consider God's Will being done as we do pray.. Thy Will be done on earth as in heaven.. then go vote!

I couldn't agree more and would add the following:

I’m of the opinion that as Christians we are obligated to vote with an informed Christian conscience. Generally, we find that most all Christian faiths hold similar moral values. Therefore, comments I make here as a Catholic should relate to other Christian faiths.

“We need to remember that tolerance is not a Christian virtue, and it's never an end in itself. In fact, tolerating grave evil within a society is itself a form of evil. Likewise, democratic pluralism does not mean that Catholics should be quiet in public about serious moral issues because of some misguided sense of good manners. A healthy democracy requires vigorous moral debate to survive. Real pluralism demands that people of strong beliefs will advance their convictions in the public square - peacefully, legally and respectfully, but energetically and without embarrassment. Anything less is bad citizenship and a form of theft from the public conversation... Charles Chaput, "Litter Murders" (http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/viewarticle.php?selectedarticle=2008.10.18_Chaput_ Charles%20J._Little%20Murders_.xml)

A Christian is obligated to vote on those occasions when the election would be a great public benefit, or when the election would cause a grave public harm. When two or more candidates represent an equal moral good or an equally moral negative, the Christian is not obligated to vote. The importance here is that choosing between moral equals isn’t the same as choosing between which candidates offers the largest government check to the voter.

During any election, the Christian should cast his vote understanding that the candidate will win and that the voter is cooperating (either formally or remotely) in the candidate’s efforts to do good or evil. For example, the voter casting a vote for a candidate that supports a grave evil specifically because the voter agrees with the evil, finds himself formally cooperates with that evil. Voting for the same candidate for proportionate reasons other than supporting the grave evil is remote material cooperation with evil. That is to say, that the voter’s intent was not to give the candidate the wherewithal to commit evil. Whether has failed his Christian moral responsibilities hinges on the “proportionate reasons.”

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, His Holiness the Pope, puts it more succinctly: (link) (http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm)

“A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”

In my opinion voting for Obama is a vote for death. He is an unabashed Pro-abortion candidate. Charles Chaput said, "To suggest - as some Catholics do - that Senator Obama is this year's 'real' pro-life candidate requires a peculiar kind of self-hypnosis, or moral confusion, or worse, … Speaking for myself, I do not know any proportionate reason that could outweigh more than 40 million unborn children killed by abortion and the many millions of women deeply wounded by the loss and regret abortion creates. “
(Ibid, Emphasis is mine )


The following is a catholic view of the candidates: (link) (http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2008/08/catholic-vote-2008-election-analysis-of.html)


JOHN MCCAIN (Republican) on the Pope's Social Teaching...
1. Pro-Life - McCain opposes abortion outright, has committed to a Pro-Life presidency, and backed away from embryonic stem-cell research, hinting that his previous support of it was in error. At the Saddleback Civil Forum he stated that he believed future success in adult stem-cell research would relegate the debate about embryonic stem-cells to academics.

2. Pro-Family - McCain opposed gay-marriage outright, but expressed his support for legal civil-unions of whatever type, at the Saddleback Civil Forum. While this position is less than desired, it is at least more defined than his previous stumbling over the matter. It would appear McCain has finally made up his mind about gay-marriage, and gay civil-unions, as well as when it would be appropriate for him to support the Federal Marriage Amendment.

3. School-Choice - McCain came out strongly for School Choice, in which he specifically supported vouchers, something the pope has championed in recent years.

• John McCain has selected Governor Sarah Palin as his vice presidential running mate. Palin is an Evangelical who agrees with the pope on all three issues of major importance to Catholic Social Doctrine. She is pro-life, opposes gay-marriage, and supports school-choice. A Catholic may vote for her in good conscience.

BARACK OBAMA (Democrat) on the Pope's Social Teaching...
1. Pro-Life - Obama supports a "pro-choice" agenda, and therefore opposes the pope's social teaching on human life. At the Saddleback Civil Forum, Obama said it was "above his pay grade" to determine issues of life and death, right and wrong, on this matter with any specificity.

2. Pro-Family - Obama came out in support of gay-marriage by opposing California's referendum against gay-marriage. At the Saddleback Civil Forum, he said he favored gay civil-unions, but personally opposed gay-marriage. He did not, however, state that he opposed gay-marriage on a political level. In this Obama is in direct opposition to the pope's social teaching on the matter.

3. School-Choice - Obama did not speak on school-choice at the Saddleback Civil Forum, but he has come out in opposition to it previously, thus opposing the pope's social teaching on the matter.

• Barack Obama has selected Senator Joe Biden as his vice presidential running mate. Biden is a "Cafeteria Catholic" who opposes the pope on all three major issues of Catholic Social Doctrine. He favors abortion on demand, advocates gay civil-unions, and opposes school-choice. As a result, Biden is no longer lawfully permitted to receive communion in the Catholic Church, and some bishops have warned him not to present himself at the communion rail. This amounts to a default excommunication without the formality of paperwork. Because of Biden's status in the Catholic Church, a vote for him is not only a direct vote against the Social Doctrine of the Church, but against the authority of the pope and the Catholic Church itself. Therefore Catholics may not vote for him in good conscience

JoeT

Palin, pro-life, but encourages the chasing until exhaustion and trophy killing of bears and wolves from helicopters. What a woman.

Palin, pro-life, but encourages the chasing until exhaustion and trophy killing of bears and wolves from helicopters. What a woman.

And you call this a proportionate reason? Get real! Most hunters respect the lives of animals. Now if she hunts these animals from a helicopter, could it be they've become a nuisance, perhaps a danger to human life? Does a human life count so little to you that you wouldn't give up a pesky old bare for the life of 40 million human babies? Or maybe you're just providing (in my opinion - wrongheaded) rationalization to vote against your Christian morals? Are you placing your moral beliefs above God's will?

JoeT

And you call this a proportionate reason? Get real! Most hunters respect the lives of animals. Now if she hunts these animals from a helicopter, could it be they've become a nuisance, perhaps a danger to human life? Does a human life count so little to you that you wouldn't give up a pesky old bare for the life of 40 million human babies? Or maybe you're just providing (in my opinion - wrongheaded) rationalization to vote against your Christian morals? Are you placing your morals believes above God's will?

JoeT
No, these animals are not pesky nuisances or a danger to human life. There is even a $150 bounty on each wolf foreleg turned in. These animals are out in the wild and away from civilization. I would not call the people who use helicopters to chase down and kill animals "hunters." Please do some research on Mrs. Palin and her "respect for life."

God's will??

And as a side note, the federal government are chasing wild horses down with helicopters right now and killing them.
Wild horses do not put cash in the pockets of the ranchers that donate to the reps that get the killing done. I guess that's just how it works.
A piece of bear jerky anyone?

No, these animals are not pesky nuisances or a danger to human life. There is even a $150 bounty on each wolf foreleg turned in. These animals are out in the wild and away from civilization. I would not call the people who use helicopters to chase down and kill animals "hunters." Please do some research on Mrs. Palin and her "respect for life."

God's will????????

There is a bounty precisely because the animals are nuisances and a danger.

There is a bounty precisely because the animals are nuisances and a danger.
If you do research on this, you will find out that they are not nuisances or a danger to anyone. These are out in the middle of nowhere, minding their own business.

From Slate --
Since 2003, Alaska has issued aerial wolf-hunting permits in select areas where moose and caribou populations are particularly endangered. The idea is that by killing the predators, the airborne gunmen can ramp up the number of moose and caribou that human hunters can take home for supper.

Btw, wolves do not normally go after large animals, but prefer to hunt smaller ones such as rodents. The aerial shooting sometimes leaves the animals merely wounded. Forelegs are cut off still-living wolves.

A politician cannot very likely be successful in politics and be a complete Christian at the same time. His opponent will clean his clock.
The last I heard is that our representatives in all levels of government are servants of the people. Not be served by the people. We are suppose to vote for somebody so they don’t “get their clocked cleaned”? That’s the strangest thing I’ve heard.

JoeT

If you do research on this, you will find out that they are not nuisances or a danger to anyone. These are out in the middle of nowhere, minding their own business.


I don’t care if it’s the last bear in the world; it’s still not worth the life of 40 million babies. This last bear wouldn't be worth of one baby catching a cold. (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/politics-who-vote-271212-2.html#post1330593)

JoeT

No, these animals are not pesky nuisances or a danger to human life. There is even a $150 bounty on each wolf foreleg turned in. These animals are out in the wild and away from civilization. I would not call the people who use helicopters to chase down and kill animals "hunters." Please do some research on Mrs. Palin and her "respect for life."

God's will????????

I have to spread more rep before I can agree with you again but very good points!

I don't care if it's the last bear in the world; it's still not worth the life of 40 million babies. This last bear wouldn't be worth of one baby catching a cold. (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/politics-who-vote-271212-2.html#post1330593)

JoeT
What does the life of a bear have to do with a baby's life? Why can't we respect BOTH lives?

Politics is about voting for *ISSUES* that are so important for the future of our country.

1. Failing economy
2. Afghanistan war
3. Iraq war
4. Relations with our allies
5. whipsawing stock market
6. poor education in US
7. on and on!

The *ISSUES* are what the next president has to address so America, and we are on the brink of losing our superpower status, can continue to be the best nation with the best life in the world. :)

What does the life of a bear have to do with a baby's life? Why can't we respect BOTH lives?
They are not morally equal. Yet somehow reason that your support of abortionists is motivated by Palin’s hunting practices. I don’t see the proportionate reasoning.
Abortion is one of the preeminent moral issues of our day.

JoeT

Joe, No it isn't. Morality and ethics are *VALUES*. Americans are free to have their own values and not have some right wing radicals try to shove values down their throat!! What next, forcing us to go to church on Sunday!!

We just saw what a huge mumber of value's voters did to AMerica with the election of Bush as President in 2000! He is the worst president in the history of the republic. He is stupid, he engages in magical thinking(like relilgion does), and we are on the brink of falling from our superpower status.

Sorry, forgot this is the Christianity Board, this is a discussion and *should be moved* to religious discussion board, in my opinion!

ZM... lol!

This definitely seems like it's turned into more of a discussion. I agree Choux. Lol

Only when you leave Christ out of the picture does this discussion become one that shouldn't belong in this forum.

Scripture is quoted in #17 and one church view point was given in #20.

I still believe in voting according to the Will of God.
You have to discern from right and wrong.. Then pray.. Thy Will be done on earth as in heaven.. go vote!

God considers a baby in the womb to be a person.
So should we.
Abortion KILLS a developing human being, a person.
A baby developing in the womb is a person, so God says.

Isaiah 49: 1. Coasts and islands, listen to me, pay attention, distant peoples.
Yahweh called me when I was in the womb, before my birth he had pronounced my name.

Jeremiah 1: 4. The word of Yahweh came to me, saying:
5. `Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you came to birth I consecrated you; I appointed you as prophet to the nations."

God knew them as persons before they were born.
A person who votes for Obama supports abortions, that's purposeful murder.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

A person who votes for Obama supports abortions, that's purposeful murder.
At least he hasn't cheated on his wife or publicly used obscenities (commited adultery and dishonored his spouse) or publicly told jokes about Chelsea Clinton's parentage (bore false witness). What does God say about those?

Obama didn't vote for Roe v. Wade. Partial-birth abortion, he says, should be done only if the life of the mother is in jeopardy.

Politics is about voting for *ISSUES* that are so important for the future of our country.

1. Failing economy
2. Afghanistan war
3. Iraq war
4. Relations with our allies
5. whipsawing stock market
6. poor education in US
7. on and on!

The *ISSUES* are what the next president has to address so America, and we are on the brink of losing our superpower status, can continue to be the best nation with the best life in the world. :)

We the people need to STOP pointing fingers and realize 3 fingers point back on us. We have caused the problems of our economy, we have fallen in bondage to credit cards, we do need firm control on government spending yet they follow the puplic lead, we need bibles back in school and apart of wisdom in history, we have to recognize God as our hope and strength, abortion would bring God's wrath, and same sex marriages will bring distruction as Sodom and Gomorrah.

1. reap what we sow
2. fighting evil for freedom and peace
3. fighting to save the innocents from evil
4. known thereout the scriptures
5. bondage without recourse
6. false priorities
7. forgetful in who brings hope
8. same sex marriages
9. innocent babies abortion
10. race and gender issues

What can be accepted as in the eyes of the Lord..and what can't be accepted. "choice"

sndbay ,
McCain is NO saint.
But...
Don't make light of the true fact that Obama is extremely liberal in regard to abortions.
IF he becomes president he will try to make abortions easier to get and set aside the partial birth abortion ban.
That means that MILLIONS more of persons in the womb will be killed.
That's more people killed than in our two world wars.
There is no political subject more important than abortions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay ,
Don't make light of the true fact that Obama is extremely liberal in regard to abortions.
IF he becomes president he will try to make abortions easier to get and set aside the partial birth abortion ban.
That means that MILLIONS more of persons in the womb will be killed.
That's more people killed than in our two world wars.

You've heard Obama say this, or he told you this?

sndbay ,
McCain is NO saint.
But.....
Don't make light of the true fact that Obama is extremely liberal in regard to abortions.
IF he becomes president he will try to make abortions easier to get and set aside the partial birth abortion ban.
That means that MILLIONS more of persons in the womb will be killed.
That's more people killed than in our two world wars.
There is no political subject more important than abortions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hello there Fred, I already posted #17 and #40.. And abortions is {{not}} the WILL of GOD nor is same sex marriages. The wrath of God could come as the result of this action.

1. reap what we sow = failing economy
2. fighting evil for freedom and peace =Afghanistan war
3. fighting to save the innocents from evil = Iraq war
4. known thereout the scriptures = Relations with our allies
5. bondage without recourse = whipsawing stock market
6. false priorities = poor education in US
7. forgetful of God and in Him that brings hope = on and on!

(perhaps God would allow are children to benefit by wisdom if we brought back the bible in history study within the schools.

8. same sex marriages = Sodom and Gomorrah
9. innocent babies abortion = killing the innocent
10. race and gender issues = love one another

Is anyone going to bring up the issues of abortions because of rape or lethal conditions? These are 2 reasons I think that a girl should have a choice. My cousin found out she that her baby would be stillborn if she made it through the whole pregnancy and the doctors said the chances that she would survive to carry the baby to term were slim. The baby had a lethal condition and had 69 chromosomes. I think girls in these kind of situations should have a choice. It broke her heart to follow through with it because she wanted a little girl for so long.

Obamas voting record, he did not support the ban on partial birth abortions. One just has to look at his voting record on this issue.

On economy, OK Bush did not stop it, but the program on the high risk loans to people that can not afford them started with Clinton, his last year,
So basically the house loan fall is a democrat program that is now finally hitting, as was warned when it was first started.
** not again Bush did not try to stop the program but it was not his program.

The Republicans got the banks deregulated.

Is anyone going to bring up the issues of abortions because of rape or lethal conditions? these are 2 reasons I think that a girl should have a choice. My cousin found out she that her baby would be stillborn if she made it through the whole pregnancy and the doctors said the chances that she would survive to carry the baby to term were slim. The baby had a lethal condition and had 69 chromosomes. I think girls in these kind of situations should have a choice. It broke her heart to follow through with it because she wanted a little girl for so long.

My heart always goes out to those in times of sorrow, and pain. And this pain whether before birth on earth or before death that is followed by a spiritual birth, has a greater chance for rejoiced thanksgiving, if with the love of God each choice is held in stedfast belief to prayer in the Name of Jesus (His Will be done. John 14:13)
In any case each soul belongs to God. (Ezekiel 18:4) It is against God's commandments in premeditated innocence of death to take a life.
The gift of birth is a blessing, as is the birth of resurrection. Absence from this world is present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:7-8 Ecclesiasters 12:6-7 ) Rest in comfort to do the Will the God.

According to your faith be it unto you.

Obamas voting record, he did not support the ban on partial birth abortions. One just has to look at his voting record on this issue.

On economy, ok Bush did not stop it, but the program on the high risk loans to people that can not afford them started with Clinton, his last year,
So basicly the house loan fall is a democrat program that is now finally hitting, as was warned when it was first started.
** not again Bush did not try to stop the program but it was not his program.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Max strated under Carter. I don't know if you're old enough to remember those days. If you waited more than a week or two to take your pay check (assuming you were working) to the grocery store it lost buying power. Also, if you had a job, you couldn’t get a raise; the Fed’s tried to control wage and prices. It didn’t work, only wages were controlled, prices continued to skyrocket. My work day was upwards of 16 hours most days of the week, working to support my family and attending College. Sunday Mass was sleep time. If you want a return to these Good ol' days, just leave me out.

Obama’s programs remind me of the Greater Carter years (all the 20-somethings voted for him, they wanted CHANGE Too -sound familiar?) - I was smarter; but it didn’t do any good – he still got elected. Inflation was running extremely high. The prime rate was as high as 20% - maybe more. Gasoline became difficult to find at reasonable prices. Reinvigorating the “Great Society” the government erected slums which were destroyed by the tenants within a few short years. To add insult to the Democrat surrender of Vietnam, Iranian Marist radicals invaded the US Embassy in 1978 taking hostages. They weren’t released until after Ragan took office.

When I came back from Vietnam in 1969 I had to suffer the humiliation of the lying John Kerry and his Clan of Communist (not to mention the Bill Ayers group. I guess I must’ve been Genghis Khan’s right had man – having lived in south Asia I knew how the people were enslaved by communism and socialism. I volunteered to go to Asia.)

I came to realize the Democrats didn’t just represent these groups; they are thousands of John Kerrys the Bill Ayers. Democrats are intellectual fascists, terrorists, and power mongers. To this day I relate "un-American" with the Democrat Party. I don’t hold a grudge long, but I’ll never vote for the people that spat on Marines returning from their tour in Vietnam. They did their duty: winning the battles, they fought the jungles, built roads, bridges and they cared for those caught in the middle of the conflict. John Murtha, like Kerry, shows his respect for the men and women in the armed forces and supports Obama'a view of the military by accusing our men of, “[killing] innocent civilians in cold blood.” By the way, all the accused have been acquitted. But, of course these high mighty intellectuals are above apologies. The scumbags.

Obama is the political son of Ayers, the brother of Murtha and Kerry, and a socialist. I don’t look for a good future if he gets elected. Notice that in a speech yesterday he implied that “sacrifice” was necessary for our economic future, (these intellectuals sacrifice what you work for). He said that we can’t live the life style we once did- his administration is dedicated to make sure that everybody shares the wealth (after tax of course). He’ll make Castro look as innocent Carter.

You got to be kidding, I’ll never vote Democrat. I don’t care if Obama is the messiah of change.

Gee, I only meant to tell you about how bad socialist Democrats can make the economy. Sorry for the rant; but look at the bright side, now you’ll get a lot of traffic on this thread.

Semper Fi

JoeT

Wondergirl
Yes Obama said that.
His voting record proves that.
Vote your Christian conscience and live with it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777,
Yes you are right but it was the Clinton administration what expanded the housing loan companies' ability to loan to high risk people.
I do have to admit that I not only voted for Carter. I actively campaigned for him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777,
Yes you are right but it was the Clinton administration what expanded the housing loan companies’ ability to loan to high risk people.
I do have to admit that I not only voted for Carter. I actively campaigned for him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

NOOOO! Not you!

I tried to re-inlisted during the Carter years to feed my family! That's how rough it got. At least you know why I'll never vote Democrat. We, the taxpaying people, were little more than experiments in their bid for power.

JoeT

JoeT777,
Yes, Joe, Now I know.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777,
Yes, Joe, Now I know.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


That’s OK Fred, now we both know. But, the least we can do is warn the 20-somethings that, like Panoccio learned, there are no free rides. Somebody pays or we turn into donkeys.

JoeT

JoeT777,
Indeed!!
Fred

You've heard Obama say this, or he told you this?

Oh please, like he will ever admit it, or worse, volunteer this information that will let people know how he really thinks.

Actions speak louder than words. You need to learn how to put 2 and 2 together.

A lot of little incongruities with a recurrent theme.

At least he hasn't cheated on his wife or publicly used obscenities (commited adultery and dishonored his spouse) or publicly told jokes about Chelsea Clinton's parentage (bore false witness). What does God say about those?

Obama didn't vote for Roe v. Wade. Partial-birth abortion, he says, should be done only if the life of the mother is in jeopardy.

Well I think we all have our "sins" however I will vote for the more experienced man, who I can tell loves his country and wants to take care of it.
In this fragile time, politically and economically.
And the one without all the red flags about his past, his associations, his school of thought, please.
And no I don't want free giveouts/handouts. I want competition and better prices, more jobs.
I want to create new wealth not recycle it. I don't want to try the "trickle-up poverty" experiment, no thanks.

Well I think we all have our "sins" however I will vote for the more experienced man, who I can tell loves his country and wants to take care of it. In this fragile time, politically and economically.
And the one without all the red flags about his past, his associations, his school of thought, please.
And no I don't want free giveouts/handouts. I want competition and better prices, more jobs.
I want to create new wealth not recycle it. I don't want to try the "trickle-up poverty" experiment, no thanks.
Then you will certainly be happy when Barack Obama becomes president.

Obamas voting record, he did not support the ban on partial birth abortions. One just has to look at his voting record on this issue.

On economy, ok Bush did not stop it, but the program on the high risk loans to people that can not afford them started with Clinton, his last year,
So basicly the house loan fall is a democrat program that is now finally hitting, as was warned when it was first started.
** not again Bush did not try to stop the program but it was not his program.

Actually, Bush raised red flags starting in April 2001. Warnings escalated thereafter. He (or his admin) did propose legislation to regulate this program, but the ALL the democrats voted against it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPSDnGMzIdo

They were more concerned with promoting their naïve agenda.

From what I have seen, it is the pragmatic right that benefits the common people more, despite all the rhetoric from the left.

Bill Clinton agrees that democrats caused financial crisis.

That's ok Fred, now we both know. But, the least we can do is warn the 20-somethings that, like Panoccio learned, there are no free rides. Somebody pays or we turn into donkeys.

JoeT

I agree. We need to counteract misinformation. I myself am in my mid twenties, but yes, most young people lean democratic.

I really don't care about party loyalty, but rather finding the truth, and I've found more BS in the left than in the right. Sorry. That's my story so far.

Then you will certainly be happy when Barack Obama becomes president.

Ha ha haha ha ha

Then you will certainly be happy when Barack Obama becomes president.

Not a chance, Obama wants to spead the wealth around. Well I know like most Americans know, we work hard to make the money we make. We work hard to give our children all that we never had...And none of it was free to us, there is nothing free in life.. Someone has to pay! We need to go forward not back, not learning from the past is a mistake. STOP blaming and pointing the finger, WE THE PEOPLE have seen that we now reap what was sow in credit debt...

Our military fights for our rights to freedom, so we can grow and live here in the US. We The People Stand... United under God to fight evil who looks to destroy the innocent world wide. I for one do not want to give up that Standing, and pray that God will strength us, and forgive the bad choices we have made.
Same sex marriages and abortion are not the Will of God. Should these things continue then the wrath of God will be on those who did not treasure in God fear. Those that have an ear let them hear...

Isa 33:6 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

Not a chance, Obama wants to spead the wealth around.
You totally misunderstand what that means. Check back in a year and let me know what you think has happened with your money.

You totally misunderstand what that means. Check back in a year and let me know what you think has happened with your money.It doesn't matter, the end of times is near, or so I'm told on this site.

You totally misunderstand what that means. Check back in a year and let me know what you think has happened with your money.

The more money someone makes the more taxes they will pay.." Obama said like me" He, himself is willing to pay more taxes so that the non-working and lower paid can keep their money. Those people will receive a tax break = money back.

Who do you suppose will pay for that tax cut that is given in speading the wealth. It will come from those who make more money and work harder. Those that even work two jobs to make ends meet.. or both spouse incomes.

Those that have nothing in life will have more, and those who have more will have less..

Of course I believe we should spend less to help ourselves out of credit card debt, but the facts are still the same with Obama's plan. If we work hard to pay are debts off we will also be working to pay for that tax cut needed to fork over money for those not working or lesser paid. So it becomes less important to be paid more then your co-workers because if they receive a tax cut and you don't..someone has to fork the money over for them to get money back in tax cut.. Spead the wealth is an idea that makes everyone becomes more able on a standard level .. humm what countries do this ?

Those just starting out in life have an advantage, or those in school. We will all help them get to where they are going. but we will either have to work harder again, or stop living as we are, and spend less because we certain won't be able to pay our own debts. We become more standard level...

Who do you suppose will pay for that tax cut that is given in speading the wealth. It will come from those who make more money and work harder. Those that even work two jobs to make ends meet.. or both spouse incomes.

Those who work two jobs make more than $250,000 a year? I have next-door neighbor spouses who work three jobs each and don't make that much.

The more money someone makes the more taxes they will pay

This is how it is now, and has been for a long time.

Cyprine,
You are more advance than your years.
Remember that Winston Churchill accurately said, "If a young person is not a liberal he has no heart. If an old person is not a conservative he has no brains."
I see that you have brains.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

This quotation is frequently but mistakenly attributed to Churchill.
It is anyway unlikely that Churchill would subscribe to this
Philosophy: He was a swashbuckling soldier at 20, and a Conservative
Member of Parliament at 25. A couple of years later he switched to the
Liberal Party (which was not liberal in the modern sense), and later
Went back to the Conservatives.

The phrase originated with Francois Guisot (1787-1874): "Not to be a
republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is
proof of want of head." It was revived by French Premier Georges
Clemenceau (1841-1929): "Not to be a socialist at twenty is proof of
want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head."

Actually, Bush raised red flags starting in April 2001. Warnings escalated thereafter. He (or his admin) did propose legislation to regulate this program, but the ALL the democrats voted against it. Hello again, C:

Even if what you say is true, the Republicans had control of ALL THREE branches of government, and could have passed those kind of rules if THEY, and ONLY they, wanted to... They didn't NEED the Democrats. They couldn't stop 'em.

But, their Wall Street buddies were making bundles of dough, so they didn't.

excon

Republican does not necessarily equal conservative.

This is how it is now, and has been for a long time.

Are you middle class America?

The middle class are not getting additional deduction, and their earnings will be high enough to pay more taxes yet no additional deduction to help their style of life. Middle class Americans hold the largest among of debt shown in our country, living over their head by credit , and mortgage payments higher because of the rise in the housing market over the last few years. 401K doesn't look as good because of the market, and retirement falls back further and further because of the economy that has been caused by WE THE PEOPLE.. We work more and more hours to meet heating expense, travel cost, and medical coverage, not to forget regular utility cost. Then we have those activities for the child's, and our accasional trip or vacation, along with holiday expenses. How do you save and plan for retirement, and should we give up on what we have save for ourselves and our children, because someone has their hand out. The struggle was worth our effect..
Tell me, if we can achieve what we have, why is it that today someone has to give benefits that were not here before.. It was always good to learn how hard work brought the value of life to whatever we hoped. And with God blessing everything grows.

I am registered Republican but when I read the definition of conservative it doesn't seem to be me. But I AM for small government, the competition and innovation of the capitalist system, and most traditional values.

If I was 15 again, with my mentality (naive) back then, I easily see myself supporting Obama. On the "heart" level all that sounds nice, but it will not work. Add on top of that all his "red flags."

I also used to think I could befriend anyone, no matter how crazy, outcast, or dangerous and it would be all good. I also used to think you could change people. I used to think gang members were just "misunderstood."

But, lo and behold I have changed. To me, the ultra-liberals lack character and common-sense. Yes there must be bad Republicans like there is bad anywhere (even in the Catholic church priests). What can I say...

arcura,

I guess I'm an old person by now! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/ashamed/ashamed0004.gif

By the way, I admire Churchill, I think his ideas apply to today too. Lets not play appeasement, we all saw how wrong that went.

Cyprine,
I agree.
I'm a moderate.
Peace and kindness,
Fred