Apparently many folks in some towns did not.
The seeds were plentifully sown but the harvest was meager.
See here.
Today's Gospel (Lk 10:13-16): Jesus said, «Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! So many miracles have been worked in you! If the same miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would already be sitting in ashes and wearing the sackcloth of repentance. Surely for Tyre and Sidon it will be better than for you on the Judgment Day. And what of you, city of Capernaum? Will you be lifted to heaven? You will be thrown down to the place of the dead. Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me».
So IF you saw Jesus perform miracles would you believe?
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

It reads like Jesus is talking about changes of heart, spiritual miracle, people being saved from their old ways of thinking to Jesus' new way, the Kingdom of God Within. That is the only way him saying that they would be wearing the sackcloth of repentance. :)

Choux,
BUT...
If you saw Jesus working miracles would you believe?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Depends on the miracle. Remember the story of Moses and his staff that turned into a serpent? The others performed "miracles" too.

And I'm sure that some are or were convinced that Uri Geller performed "miracles"...

The prediction of the resurrection and it coming true... now that's a different story :)

Probably not just as I don't believe that David Copperfield actually flys on stage. Everything attributed to Jesus could be redone by a good magician. It would probably take him raising me from the dead or if he could heal amputees then I might believe it.

I don't need proof to believe.

RickJ
Many of the healings Jesus performed would be acctually impossible for a magician to perform.
The deaf heard, the sick were healed, the lame walked, the dead rose.
Fred

Not if the sick were in on it. Often traveling magicians will travel with many people who they pick out of the crowd supposidly at random to "heal".
Watch it done it modern time with people who are equally as primitive as people were in Jesus's time.
YouTube - supernatural revealed in india (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2Kz8FzruvQ)

RickJ
Many of the healings Jesus performed would be acctually impossible for a magician to perform.
The deaf heard, the sick were healed, the lame walked, the dead rose.
Fred

Agreed... but the original question was general to "miracles". :)

Probably not just as I don't believe that David Copperfield actually flys on stage. Everything attributed to Jesus could be redone by a good magician. It would probably take him raising me from the dead or if he could heal amputees then I might believe it.

Interesting that you mention amputees. Reports from the Azusa Street mission in 1909 or 1910 say that there were two or three occasions where amputated limbs were re-grown. Of course, all credit goes to Jesus Christ.

I really enjoyed the link michealb! Thanks for posting it. :)

Of which the only evidence for it isn't even first person it's all third person from a person who wrote a book call "They told me thier stories" It was supposidly the stories of the children who were at Azusa street.

I heal amputees all the time. See I can do that too. It's just that you don't believe me because I said I did it instead of god. Anything that you attribute to god you should ask for more evidence than something that is attributed to a man because at least you know the man exists.

I already believe, but if I witnessed an actual miracle then I would be able to say that God is fact.

But, like the others, it depends on the miracle, the circumstances, and whether I witnessed it first hand.

Many of the "miracles" discussed in the bible etc. well, they can be attributed to other things, or could just have been sensationalized by the people who wrote about it.

I have never witnessed a miracle, it would have been nice to. When my parents were dying of cancer I prayed for a miracle, a relatively simply one, cure them, make the cancer disappear. No such miracle. :(

Of which the only evidence for it isn't even first person it's all third person from a person who wrote a book call "They told me thier stories" It was supposidly the stories of the children who were at Azusa street.

I heal amputees all the time. See I can do that too. It's just that you don't believe me because I said I did it instead of god. Anything that you attribute to god you should ask for more evidence than something that is attributed to a man because at least you know the man exists.
If the book you mention were the only record from that time and place, you would be justified in dismissing it out of hand. There are other records that have survived, especially in the history of several "Pentecostal" denominations, including the Assemblies of God, which is the largest world-wide and fastest growing of these denominations.

Afterthought: It was only 100 years ago. There should be some old newspaper stories archived somewhere. If you have a good computer and the time, you could do some interesting research and report back. You might even decide to write a book yourself.

Newpaper articles from the time mention nothing of healed amputees. The only record of healing amputees is from the book. All that I have read points to a Jim Jones type cult that didn't stay together as long and spun off into other churches. No miracles just people taking advantage of guilible people.

Fred, I don't believe in a Supernatural; the Natural World is wondrous and marvelous enough for me...

I don't believe Jesus was capable of doing miracles that go against Nature, but I believe that there were plenty of men capable of altering documents to suit their own ends. :)

michealb,
I understans what you are saying,
But I was speaking about all of the miracles Jesus performed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Many people who do not believe in miracles will go to great lengths to explain them away rather than accept the obvious.
The problem is that there are many fakes out there who are able to fool many people.
Preace and kindness,
Fred

I see it the other way.
Many people who do believe in miracles will go to great lengths to explain them rather than accept the obvious.

michealb,
The obvious I spoke of was REAL miracles which could not be faked and have been proven so many, many times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

All miracles can be faked and believers are guilible because they want to believe so they look over things that would disprove them.

michealb.
Sorry, I do not believe that all miracles could be faked.
If the are miracles they are not fake.
A fake diamond is a fake not a diamond. The same for so-called fake miracles.
I have seen miracles and know that they were not faked for I knew the people involved.
Some years ago there was a TV program called That's Incredible.
On it there were several miracles performed that were tested by doctors and scientists to verify that they were not faked.
On particular one was absolutely amazing.
A Catholic priest, Father D'Orio, said that it was the holy spirit that caused a man born with one leg shorted than the other to grow right there on camera in front of witnesses who knew the man and scientists who examined him
There are thousands of such cases.
Whether you believe them or not the record of them stands in many places around the world.
You are probably like those mentioned in the bible that did not believe.
I do believe what I saw and knew the people involved. They were not fakes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I already believe, but if I witnessed an actual miracle then I would be able to say that God is fact.

But, like the others, it depends on the miracle, the circumstances, and whether I witnessed it first hand.

Many of the "miracles" discussed in the bible etc., well, they can be attributed to other things, or could just have been sensationalized by the people who wrote about it.

I have never witnessed a miracle, it would have been nice to. When my parents were dying of cancer I prayed for a miracle, a relatively simply one, cure them, make the cancer disappear. No such miracle.

Me too, I passed through such things. You know about my father? Well, we prayed for him, after some time, the cancerous area remained unchanged, almost shrunk, but it was too late. The docs said that given the stage of the cancer, he would suffer a lot.

And what happened? He did not suffer the least. Patients usually need drugs to relieve their pain, but my father did not. He died in peace. And I still thank God for His miracle.

Newpaper articles from the time mention nothing of healed amputees. The only record of healing amputees is from the book. All that I have read points to a Jim Jones type cult that didn't stay together as long and spun off into other churches. No miracles just people taking advantage of guilible people.

You have done the research? Already? Forgive me, but I doubt that.

Unknown008,
Thanks for sharing that with us, Jerry.
I'm happy that your dad passed away in peace with no cancer pain.
Fred

Galveston1
As do I.
Research for proven miracles would cover a lot of areas and time (thousands of years) and take a lot of personal time for there are many thousands on record.
Just the great many proven to have taken place at Lourdes would make up volumes of information.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The reason there are no proven miracles is because if there were they would be a big deal everyone would know about it but we don't so there aren't. What you call miricles are either out right fraud or coincidence. I hope you all aren't giving your money to Peter Popoff hoping for miracles.

If you saw Jesus work miracles would you believe?
No Fred, I would not. I see magicians doing magical and miracle tricks my brain tells me to be impossible in real life. Still I see them happening in front of me.
James Randi has used his entire life to expose people who carry out those tricks, and succeeded in that in almost every attempt to do so.

With all respect : one more "magician" doing tricks would not make me believe.

Have a nice day, and peace be upon you, Fred !

:)

.

Me too, i passed through such things. You know about my father? Well, we prayed for him, after some time, the cancerous area remained unchanged, almost shrunk, but it was too late. The docs said that given the stage of the cancer, he would suffer a lot.

And what happened? He did not suffer the least. Patients usually need drugs to relieve their pain, but my father did not. He died in peace. And I still thank God for His miracle.

Unky, I'm so glad that your dad died in peace, that's all we can hope for for those we love.

My dad died in pain and misery. He was in a coma for the last few days of his life and still screamed in agony when the nurses moved him to prevent bed sores. He still squeezed my hand when I asked if he could hear me and feel everything? He died a horrible death. It was a blessing when he finally died, no more pain, peace at last. For 5 days I screamed at God, dared him to try and take me too. I hated God more than I've ever hated anyone in my life.

I think that of all the other incidents in my life, my fathers death had the most profound effect on my faith. I still believe in God, but that's when I stopped giving Him absolute power in my life.

Good people die, children die, cancer kills wonderful people everyday. I believe in God, but not miracles, because if anyone was deserving of one, my father and mother were.

Galveston1
As do I.
Research for proven miracles would cover a lot of areas and time (thousands of years) and take a lot of personal time for there are many thousands on record.
Just the great many proven to have taken place at Lourdes would make up volumes of information.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I was only talking about the years 1909 & 1910 at the Azusa Street mission. That shouldn't take years to research. Someone really interested should be able to do it in a matter of weeks if they are any good at research and have a good computer hook up.

michealb,
I'll look forward to seeing any research that is done on that.
I don't have the time or inclination to do it.
Fred

I was only talking about the years 1909 & 1910 at the Azusa Street mission. That shouldn't take years to research. Someone really interested should be able to do it in a matter of weeks if they are any good at research and have a good computer hook up.

It doesn't take a week to read the biggest publications on it. If the local news paper doesn't say something special is going on there and there are no collaborated first hand accounts you can certain that nothing more the cult activity went on at that place.

michealb,
I am completely unaware of what when on there.
I've seen nothing in the news.
Fred

The fact that you don't know what went on there proves that nothing of importance happened. Some people are under the impression that a church on Azusa street in 1906 was a great pressence of god and that it proves the Christian religion but like so many things in the Christian religion it lacks any real evidence for anything out of the ordinary.

michealb,
Thanks for the information.
The omnipresent God is everywhere and everywhen so it is believed as I do.
So that is not unusual.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In 1993 I was in a commune not far from Moscow where I preached for 5 nights. At the final Sun night service, a few of the church leaders and myself and my wife were having a late meal. (They fed us 5 times a day, and I lost 10 lb.) Anyway, the mayor of the village was present with her 13 yr old son. He had been diagnosed with hepatitis "C". She hoped we could get him some medication, as it was just not available there. I felt that we should pray for his healing, but first, I asked them both if they would like to become Christians. Miracle #1, they both accepted Jesus as their Lord. We then laid hands on the son and asked for a healing. We then proceeded to eat. After a short while, all the Russians became excited, and told me that this boy had eaten all his portion and asked for more.
Now if you know anything about liver disease, you know that the appetite goes away. God healed that boy that night in answer to prayer. After we got home I later asked about the boy and was told that he had indeed been healed. That, my friends is a miracle. I was there and I know. You can call me a liar if you wish, but I, the boy, his mother, and all the church there know what happened.
To God be the glory!

I would truly like to believe that one growing in the Light of Jesus would openly testify to his works.

My mother taught me this in Sunday school when I was a child:

"Jesus disciples saw him do many other miracles besides the ones told about in this book so you would believe in him, The Messiah, The Son of God, and believing in him you will have everlasting life."

In answer to your question. I would like to believe that I poses the strength, devotion, and faith to stand and reply, "Yes".

I know someone who died of hep C and he ate fine until he died almost 23 years after he contracted the disease.

What you describe isn't a miracle but simply events in your life. Coincidences happen that's why they are called coincidences.

Galveston1,
Thanks for sharing that miracle with us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My dad died in pain and misery. He was in a coma for the last few days of his life and still screamed in agony when the nurses moved him to prevent bed sores. He still squeezed my hand when I asked if he could hear me and feel everything? He died a horrible death. It was a blessing when he finally died, no more pain, peace at last. For 5 days I screamed at God, dared him to try and take me too. I hated God more than I've ever hated anyone in my life.

I think that of all the other incidents in my life, my fathers death had the most profound effect on my faith. I still believe in God, but that's when I stopped giving Him absolute power in my life.


I'm sorry to hear that Alty. :( Perhaps it was a test, or that your father didn't have enough faith. Btw, was your father a believer? Anyway, if you let the past dominate your present attitude of your present relationship, it will be as if you let the devil win a battle.

Loads of blessing and hapiness.

Unknown008,
You ave alty some good advice.
And I join you in wishing alty loads of blessing and happiness along with my hope for peace and kindness for all here.
Fred (arcura)

I know someone who died of hep C and he ate fine until he died almost 23 years after he contracted the disease.

What you describe isn't a miracle but simply events in your life. Coincidences happen that’s why they are called coincidences.

The boy WASN't eating fine. That was his problem.
You will never see a miracle, because your mind is totally closed.
There is none so blind as he who will not see. (quote someone)

Ref. A post by Galveston1 and MichealB

I know someone who died of hep C and he ate fine until he died almost 23 years after he contracted the disease. What you describe isn't a miracle but simply events in your life. Coincidences happen that’s why they are called coincidences.
Ok : a miracle than : I know someone who died several years ago. Ever since he has not eaten anymore. Still he is dead and remains dead ! The only negative of his condition is that he does not speak anymore. At the other hand he is cheap on maintenance , and you can rely on his presence : he never missed one single day being dead !

That, my friends is a miracle too. I know he is dead. You can call me a liar if you wish, but I, the man, all that knew him agree that this happened.

Ain't that a miracle?

:rolleyes:

Note : you can post any story with a personal note attached.
But that does not mean that you prove it to be a real miracle.
It is just your story, and we have to take your word for it ....

:rolleyes:

.

Yes, you have to take my word for it. So now I am a liar? Thank You!!

Yes, you have to take my word for it. So now I am a liar? Thank You!!!
What a ridiculous response!!

A clear hint that you realize that your original statement is nothing but hot air.

I did not state that you lied. I did not imply that you lied.

All I stated is that whatever you experienced is no PROOF for a miracle...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

Galveston1,
Some people will not believe a miracle under ANY circumstances.
That us those who refuse to believe anything that disproves what they already believe.
So it goes with people of many and varied sorts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We say the same thing about you.

"There people who refuse to believe anything that disproves what they already believe."

The problem is we have that pesky science, facts and statistics on our side. Sure miracles happen all the time if you ignore those 3 things.

michealb,
BUT...
I do not ignore those things.
I believe much about science.
I read a lot about science and am very interested in it.
That does not "interfear" with my belief in miracles.
I have seen to many miracles to ignore them.
There are many happenings that are unexplainable some of which are miracles they appear to be far beyond what science can or ever will explain.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

"I have seen to many miracles to ignore them"
Fred : there is no OSE for "miracles" to exist. What you hold for "miracles" are unexplained observations, either because we simply do not know what, why, or how they happened, or just - for the major part - because we never really looked into what really happened and looked for a scientific explanation.

That there have been observations for which we have not yet a proper natural explanation - for whatever reason - is no reason to declare them as miracle.
Why do so many people have a problem with just admitting that at present we simply don't know the explanation?
And why do they insist providing some "spiritual" cause to it ?

:)

.

But Cred... there are things which do exist, but we, up to now, haven't any OSE to support them. So, giving the term miracle to something that is thought to be impossible, according to science, but which has been made possible through God's power, is plainly possible, and accepted by some people.

For example, you have somebody with an incurable disease, and that somebody was cured, not through meds but through prayers, and God's power. For many years, the scientists have looked for a possibility, but never succeeded in finding a concrete reason. How would you call that? Many people would either disbelieve you, or say that the cured person never had the disease.

In any way, the miracle happened, but all sorts of excuses arise to reject it. That's like that, you believe it or not.

For example, you have somebody with an incurable disease, and that somebody was cured, not through meds but through prayers, and God's power. For many years, the scientists have looked for a possibility, but never succeeded in finding a concrete reason. How would you call that? Many people would either disbelieve you, or say that the cured person never had the disease.

This one is covered under statistics. Almost every incurable disease doesn't kill everyone that gets it. Thanks to a highly varied immune system given to us by evolution. You don't list the millions of people that pray to be cured but instead you mention the one in million that happens to get better and call it a miracle. People in general are bad at statistics. So this isn't your fault. It's one of the reason why lotteries and casinos are so profitable it's because people don't understand the odds.

In answer to the OP. Some of you would have heard Jesus pronounce woe to you because of your unbelief. Unbelievers get nothing from God, thus cutting themselves off from any possible benefits. It's a lose-lose propisiton.

Again Galveston only if your right. If Zeus is the all mighty your punishment for worshipping a false god might be worse than mine.

Credendovidis ,
I do NOT care if there is no OSE concerning miracles.
I KNOW miracles have take place.
That is good enough for me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I do NOT care if there is no OSE concerning miracles. I KNOW miracles have take place. That is good enough for me.
Dear Fred
And I accept that you really BELIEVE that...
Peace and kindness,
John

.

Cred,
Thank you.
Fred

The 10/26/2008 edition of [U]Todays Pentecostal Evangel[U, official publication of the Assemblies of God, USA carried a news story titled "Vanished". It is the testimony of an 11 year old girl that had a brain tumor. Published in the article are before and after MRI scans, showing that after prayer at the church, the tumor completely vanished. The church is located in Whitehouse, Texas, about a 30 minute drive from where I live.

You can find the article on line at Pentecostal Evangel index (http://www.tpe.ag.org).

Good story but not well documented and even if we accept the story at face value it still doesn't prove anything. People who are sick sometimes get better it doesn't happen often but it does happen. These types of "miracles" happen to atheists who don't pray as well.

Galveston1,
Thanks for that.
Fred

Good story but not well documented and even if we accept the story at face value it still doesn't prove anything. People who are sick sometimes get better it doesn't happen often but it does happen. These types of "miracles" happen to atheists who don't pray as well.

You see, even if such 'rare' happenings occur, you still argue that that doesn't prove anything. Anyway, how can you tell that such happenings can even happen in atheists? You know, an atheist has to know that some people believe in God, but they won't. So, perhaps for a moment, they'll believe too, even be healed through the power of God. However after that, they deny it themselves so that nobody, even themselves no more know who healed them.

Peace.

Unknown008
Either accept it or reject it as you have.
I accept it as a good possibility that God was involved.
Fred

Why doesn't god heal all people then or at least all of his followers?

Surely the five year old dying of cancer who has done nothing wrong in their life is just as worthy of being healed as anyone else.

Why has god never healed an amputee?

The guy above just does not get it NO MATTER WHAT!

There are 3 of them, 2 more prevalent than the third but still. They participate in EVERY religious discussion trying to find fault with everything said. In truth, I'd wager nobody on these boards finds them insightful nor welcome for that matter in regards to religious discussion.

Sorry Arcura, I just think it wrong for these three to enter into every discussion whether it is about the existence of God or not.

I realize you might not be familier with the term free speech but I find that very important as well. If you don't like what I have to say you are more than welcome to add me to your ignore list.

You are however right on the part about me not getting it. I don't see how you can attribute random events to a great design without proof or consistancy of occurrence or consistancy of out come it doesn't make sense. And if we were talking about anything else other than god very few would even give these ideas any thought. I'm very interested in why.

Free speech? What is that? Please educate me on that subject as well kind sir.

I don't see how you can call the craetion of the world a random event. You and your proof argument is getting real stale as well. All this talk of proof and visuals to aid us in every aspect of life.

Consider that you have never actually been to the sun to know what it consists of. You haven ever been in outer space to tell us where the boundaries are or what other solar systems even look like. We rely on machines and systems to map space and then interpret the data to shape what it MAY look like, but nobody has actually seen or been near the farthest star in the universe to have proof of what exactly it is.

You also use the word logic and common sense a lot I your posts. Who's logic? Who's sense? Yours? In that fictitious book called the Bible, with all its in accuracies and falacies, the main character even commented on those people whom cannot see, cannot hear. Sounds asifhe pegged that pretty bang on Michael.

No disrespect intended towards you. You choose not to believe, you cannot see, fine. Your way of bringing up the same issues regardless of the questions prevent the questions from ever being addressed.

After re-reading I do believe I was being a bit snippy Michael and for that I do apologize.

It's just that I really do not believe that these debates are being engaged in to learn but rather to bang home one's view. I do believe, with all respect, that an atheist has room to at least consider the information about God. I do not feel that is being done here. We all know that a certain member(s) will only believe when they see, I think everyone is fine with that, so why all the back and forth.

True beleivers, in my opinion, cannot have room for thoughts about there being no God, it makes no sense to us, its not logical in our capacity to think. If you will only believe when you see than you yourself will admit there is nothing more to be said.

In my opinion, you seek to understand and for that I commend you.

First off this particular question seems to be directed specifically at atheists and people of other religions. So I'm pretty spot on topic here. Even in the requirement of proof.

If you have a problem with my comments in another thread do so in that thread. I think you will find I stay pretty on topic in most of the threads only providing a different view point.

As far as to whose logic and whose common sense both of those are subjective. I look at religion as I would anything in my life and use the common sense that most people use in their life in everything but religion.

For example if I told you I had a potion that would heal you but it doesn't work for everyone but is capable of healing everything. Wouldn't you want the results to be above the statically anomalous results before you even spent time or money on such potion? It would seems like common sense to me and I apply that same common sense to things like prayer. That makes sense to me why doesn't it make sense to you?

Edit
Posted this before I read the apology. I appreciate the apology BMI.

For your idea of potion, Michael, I would say that in a desperate attempt, anyone would try to obtain that potion, since you have nothing to lose, whatever the price.

The same is for God, you need faith for that 'potion' to work. If you ignore it, you won't have the opportunity to try it. Here also, what do you have to lose? Friends will reject you because of a belief? Not all, even if you did lose all, you'll obtain much more afterwards, and better, you'll have a friend on whom you can count on anytime; God.

Just think about it. It's just a simple choice. You choose to believe or not.

I hope you do the better one, Peace.

Atheists do believe in a god. He is known as "Random Occurance".

Atheists do believe in a god. He is known as "Random Occurance".
What a rubbish!! Specially as you have been told in the past what an Atheist is, and what he "believes"...

What is Atheism? / What is an Atheist?

ATHEISM

A THEISM

A = No(t) or Without

THEISM = Belief in "God" or "Gods"

ATHEISM = No or Without Belief in "God" or "Gods"

Atheism is NOT disbelief in the existence of a "supreme being or beings".
Most Atheists have NO opinion on the existence of a "supreme being or beings".
Only a few "Strong" Atheists do that. Most "Soft/Weak" Atheists simply ignore the possibility of existence of a "supreme being or beings", as there is no (OSE) proof for that religious claim.

---

Agnosticism is about questioning the existence of a supreme being or beings, with the conclusion that nobody will ever know.

The basic tenets of Christianity are the belief that Jesus is the Saviour, and that you have to love and forgive your "neighbors".
The basic tenet of Atheism is the lack of belief in any deity or deities.

So your statement that "Atheists do believe in a god. He is known as "Random Occurance"" is based in your own oversupply of "hot air", and lacks any valid support. Nothing new , I see...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

BMI.
I agree with you.
I have difficulty trying to understand why ANY atheist is participating on ANY religious board.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We find adults who believe in magic entertaining.

... I have difficulty trying to understand why ANY atheist is participating on ANY religious board.
Have you ever asked? May be it is a reaction against the intolerance of certain theists on this board, and/or of those theists who insist to pursue, hunt, or haunt every Atheist with their own theist chimeras and/or paranoia , either here or by going from door to door...

Have a nice day, Fred !

:)

.

.

Cred,
That makes no sense at all.
You would now know what the theists on this or any religious board say if you never were there.
So what is the REAL reason you are here?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cred, That makes no sense at all.
To you may be it does that, Fred !


So what is the REAL reason you are here?
Just as you and all others do here, Fred : to state my opinion !
This is after all a discussion board where everyone can participate within the limits of the board rules.
And these rules do not demand any specific (religious) views to participate...

Have a nice day, Fred !

:)

.

.

Fred, may I point out that the religious discussion boards are open to all people of all faiths, not just Christians.

If you don't want to hear the opinions of people that aren't Christian then you should be posting your questions on the Christianity boards, where people like Cred, Michealb, and even me cannot participate as per site rules.

There are plenty of preachers right now that claim miracles of healing through Jesus and they are regularly debunked.

So seeing a miracles performed even by Jesus wouldn't be enough.

The truth is that Jesus would have to convince me using the truth that I know, something about my life that only I know with dead on specifics to convince me of the miracle that he is God. Not generalities, specifics, that he would know my life spread out before him and replay it back to me. I would drop to my knees and surrender to him on the spot if he could specifically describe the event or incident in my life where I asked for God's help.

Again not general mumbo jumbo, but specifics, the people involved, my age, the place I was when I asked for help.

No magician's tricks, no slight of hand, no raising of the dead when I not qualified to determine death in the first place, etc.

This isn't too much to ask of God, since God can do anything. If he wants me, then he knows what to do.

If you read the article that I pointed out you will see that the girl's neurosurgeon is far more openminded than several of you are. Do you think he is deluded? Hmm?

I think he sees what he wants to see, like so many of us do. Deluded, no, just hopeful.

I believe that I am fairly openminded. If I truly saw a miracle then I would have no problem admitting that it's a miracle, after all, that would be proof of God, I'd finally know whether I'm following the right path.

Most "miracles" have other explanations that are more realistic than a true miracle.

If you read the article that I pointed out you will see that the girl's neurosurgeon is far more openminded than several of you are. Do you think he is deluded?? Hmm?

I believe the mind and the body is an untapped miracle capable of healing itself in ways we haven't yet begun to understand. If you believe that it's God direct intervention then that's a pattern of belief that works for you and you are a lucky person to never have to doubt. However, God gave me a brain and an inquisitive and questioning mind. Geez, even the bible warns about falseness and to use your God given ability to descern what is true and what isn't. Based on the life that has been laid out for me, I have posted what it would take, what a miracle would be for me.

Atenweg,
I know that this is a discussion board and mainly so far on religion.
But the question was asked why are atheists here and I picked up on that.
I really would like to know the real reason.
I think that they themselves don't real know what it is, because the reason given so far do not jell with me.
I think that religion draws them even if it is just a religious board.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

As a religious discussion board we discuss belief in certain religions, religious events, and the absence of religion.

We all have a right to express our views on the subject, even those that don't believe in any religion.

There is a Christianity board, there is not an atheist board, or a Deist board, so that leaves the religious discussions board. In fact, it is my understanding that the religious discussion board was started mainly for people like Cred, MichelB and myself, people who do not have a specific board to go to in order to discuss their beliefs.

I for one come here because I'm interested in others beliefs and how they differ from my own. I will discuss things when I don't agree, or ask questions when I don't understand someone's point of view. It's a great way to learn about others belief system and why they believe the things they do.

In other words, if we are open minded, open hearted, we may just learn a thing or two about each other. That's always a good thing, right? :)

Atenweg,
I also in interested in others beliefs.
I have nothing against atheists. They are welcome to believe as they wish like everyone else.
That does not mean that I should not be interested in whay they are attracted to religious boards.
They have been on every one that I have visited including one on witches.
I find that very interesting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Like I said Fred, the religious discussion board was actually started for Atheists etc, because there is no board assigned to that belief.

There's a Christianity board, a buddhism board, Hinduism board, Islam board, Judaism board, but no Atheism board, no Deism board either. So, where are we to go? That's why they started the Religious Discussions board, for all of those that wish to discuss their beliefs but don't fall into any of the categories that are listed.

It is actually against the rules for me to go to the Christianity boards unless I'm there to talk about Christianity, which of course I don't believe in. I'm also not Jewish, nor am I a budhist, I can go to these boards to view what is being said, but I cannot join in as I don't have the same beliefs.

This board gives the rest of us somewhere to go to discuss what we believe, that is why you'll find Atheists, Deists, possibly even Satanists on this board.

Does that answer your question? :)

Atenweg,
I know that this is a discussion board and mainly so far on religion.
But the question was asked why are atheists here and I picked up on that.
I really would like to know the real reason.
I think that they themselves don't real know what it is, because the reason given so far do not jell with me.
I think that religion draws them even if it is just a religious board.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I don't know that I believe in God in any sort of traditional sense, but I like Jesus; not so much those that interpret him or the bible. In my life I have met and heard a great many Christian and one thing is for certain, not all of them interpret the bible in the same way.

However, being sort of a non-believer I am here to learn more in my quest with regard to my existence or help people examine their beliefs through the prism of my life experiences and what 'God' has revealed to me personally; if that makes sense to anyone... lol.

Note: I answered the original post about a page ago.

Texas Parent, I think we may have very similar beliefs.

I myself am a Deist;

Deism is the belief that a supreme God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason alone, without dependence on revelation. It is in contrast with fideism, found in many forms of Christianity[1], Islamic and Judaic teachings, which holds that religious truths rely upon revelation in sacred scriptures and upon the testimony of other people as well as reasoning.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God has a plan for the universe, which he does not alter by intervening in the affairs of human life nor by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God's greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability to reason.

Texas Parent, I think we may have very similar beliefs.

I myself am a Deist;

Deism is the belief that a supreme God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason alone, without dependence on revelation. It is in contrast with fideism, found in many forms of Christianity[1], Islamic and Judaic teachings, which holds that religious truths rely upon revelation in sacred scriptures and upon the testimony of other people as well as reasoning.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God has a plan for the universe, which he does not alter by intervening in the affairs of human life nor by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God's greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability to reason.

Thank you so much, I wondered if there were others who thought along similar lines. For most of my life I have felt like an orphan, trying to fit in and grow spiritually, but incapable of abandoning MY truth and having no one to share my thoughts on the matter with.

I am interested in finding out more about Deists; do you have any suggestions as to where I might learn more?

Atenweg,
No it does not.
My question is why do religious boards attract atheists.
But the thought your answer just gave me is that for some there is no where else to go.
I'm happy that this board was made as it was and gives them and others an opportunity to discuss beliefs.
I find much what is posted here interesting and informative as I'm sure others do.
Thanks for your discussion on this.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Texas Parent, I felt exactly the same way you did, in fact, until a few months ago I didn't even have a name for my beliefs, it was Cred that told me about Deism, and after reading the definition I was so relieved, yup, that's exactly what I believe.

There are a lot of sites on the web that will give you a better understanding. If you like I could PM you a few links, or you can Google Deism, or Deists, that should give you a starting point.

I too am very glad to meet someone with the same beliefs as mine, I was beginning to think I was the only one on this site that believed this way. :)

Atenweg,
No it does not.
My question is why do religious boards attract atheists.
But the thought your answer just gave me is that for some there is no where else to go.
I'm happy that this board was made as it was and gives them and others an opportunity to discuss beliefs.
I find much what is posted here interesting and informative as I'm sure others do.
Thanks for your discussion on this.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


Anytime Fred, anytime. :)

Texas Parent,
This is as good a board for that as any I have seen.
There may be a deist board or something similar at Ask Questions - Get Answers [ Welcome ] (http://www.answerway.com)
There is a Christian and a Catholic board there where deists have particpated on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Texas Parent, I felt exactly the same way you did, in fact, until a few months ago I didn't even have a name for my beliefs, it was Cred that told me about Deism, and after reading the definition I was so relieved, yup, that's exactly what I believe.

There are alot of sites on the web that will give you a better understanding. If you like I could PM you a few links, or you can google Deism, or Deists, that should give you a starting point.

I too am very glad to meet someone with the same beliefs as mine, I was beginning to think I was the only one on this site that believed this way. :)

I wonder if me being Canadian has anything to do with it? Moved to Texas a couple of years ago. I wiki-ed Deism and found your quote and read about half the page; pretty much on track, but there are other aspects of my beliefs that would be interesting to bounce off you at a later date, I don't know yet if they fit under Deism, but I haven't really had a chance to examine the Deism beliefs (or lack thereof) enough yet.

It's sort of sad though, and here I thought I was an original thinker... lol.

Thanks again, I will take you up on your offer about sites and the like sometime soon.

Texas Parent,
This is as good a board for that as any I have seen.
There may be a deist board or something similar at Ask Questions - Get Answers [ Welcome ] (http://www.answerway.com)
There is a Christian and a Catholic board there where deists have particpated on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Thank you. I'm new to the board, and the few posts that I have seen suggest this is a little more civil than some other threads with regard to religious views I've stumbled across.

Texas Parent, anytime you want to talk just PM me, I'd be glad to answer any questions that you have.

As for being an original thinker, I felt the same way, but I find it comforting to know that I'm not the only one who feels or thinks this way. Besides, being a free thinker is one of the aspects of being a Deist, so you're in good company. ;)

There are some things about Deism that I also don't agree with 100%, but it is definitely the closest to my way of thinking, to my beliefs.

I am proud to call myself a Deist. :)

....My question is why do religious boards attract atheists....
Dear Fred,

Board Management seems to accept that Atheism is just another world view - a view that excludes any supranatural entity and/or ignores such an existence.

Atheism is just as valid a world view as theism. And as both relate to the existence of a supra-natural entity, they belong on the religious discussion board.

Have a nice day, Fred !

:)

.

.

There are some things about Deism that I also don't agree with 100%, but it is definitely the closest to my way of thinking, to my beliefs.
Dear Alt :

Within Theism and Atheism there are many different views.
It seems to be a human treat to insist on individual interpretations of similar religious views, including the Atheist view that excludes and/or ignores a supra-natural entity.

:)

.

.

My question is why do religious boards attract atheists.
But the thought your answer just gave me is that for some there is no where else to go.
I'm happy that this board was made as it was and gives them and others an opportunity to discuss beliefs.
I find much what is posted here interesting and informative as I'm sure others do.
Your original question is " If you saw Jesus work miracles would you believe?" Who is that question directed at?

Different ones have given testimonies of miracles done in the name of Jesus Christ. They have answered the post, while others have answered in the negative, saying there is no OSE. They will never get any more OSE than they have already had, and indeed for most of them there could never be enough OSE to satisfy them.

Don't confuse them with facts, their minds are made up!

OK.. the Bible is a book... written by whom? When? Exactly... Catholic priests back in the day who wanted to make a living off people paying the church for every sin, family birth, marriage, etc. Then people freaked out and went crazy and said Jesus and Moses did all these crazy things like Houdini... Being locked inside a tomb and escaping!! Wow its amazing... and also a moral story more or less... not necessarily a true event. Many stories in the bible.. Noah's ark for example have a moral ending like a fiction novel... Am I convinced that God exists? No, the Bible which is suppose to be the right way to live is a collection of moral stories with a few extra books written in by Catholic priests and bishops.

aaj2008,
Your grasp on real authentic history is amazingly poor.
Look up history of the bible on the internet or contact the American Bible Society for it.
I think you will be amazed at how wrong you are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

aaj2008,

I'm not a catholic, but I believe in God. How were fiction invented? I don't know but that perhaps have emerged from the what you call 'story' of Noah.

Blessings.

I myself don't believe and start associating things with scientific or other logical explanations to it... but if somebody believes I appreciate it as I always associate these things with raising hopes and being positive in life which is good and no harm for anybody...

Different ones have given testimonies of miracles done in the name of Jesus Christ. They have answered the post, while others have answered in the negative, saying there is no OSE. They will never get any more OSE than they have already had, and indeed for most of them there could never be enough OSE to satisfy them.

Don't confuse them with facts, their minds are made up!


Actually you are right on some level, there will never be enough OSE to satisfy me because the god of the bible doesn't exist. In order for there to be enough OSE to convince me it would have to exist. However if it did exist there would be several things that would convince me I'm wrong. For example proof of the devil, angels, demons, ghosts, bigfoot, god speaking to me, Jesus speaking to me, god actually striking me down when someone of faith asks for it, finding one artifact that has super powers(Holy Grail granting life for example) and super powers granted through prayer. I'm sure there are many more things that would convince me that a god existed these are just a few.

I'd like to ask you the same question what would convince you that the god of the bible doesn't exist?

I'd like to ask you the same question what would convince you that the god of the bible doesn't exist?

Since I am one of His sons, and am acquainted with Him by the Holy Spirit, nothing can convince me that He doesn't exist.

The man with the experience is never at a disadvantage to the man with the argument.

Since I am one of His sons, and am acquainted with Him by the Holy Spirit, nothing can convince me that He doesn't exist.

The man with the experience is never at a disadvantage to the man with the argument.


Don't confuse them with facts, their minds are made up!

Yet you accuse atheists of having their mind made up. Does the word hypocrite mean anything to you?

Since I am one of His sons, and am acquainted with Him by the Holy Spirit, nothing can convince me that He doesn't exist.

The man with the experience is never at a disadvantage to the man with the argument.

Exactly the point I have been trying to make. God has revealed himself to me through my experiences and he tells me that my understanding is truth; but if you must know the truth of my experiences does not match the literal bible; some of the principles, but not the details.

Does that make my experience trump any biblical arguments? I believe so, but unlike those with a biblical argument, I can accept your experience is truth to you, are you willing to accept my experience is truth to me and leave it at that rather than resort to an argument?

Texas,

God can't lie and God can't go against his Word. He places HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME. It is THAT important. So if it what you think God is revealing to you as truth does NOT line up with his Word... then it isn't GOD.

Texas,

God can't lie and God can't go against his Word. He places HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME. It is THAT important. So if it what you think God is revealing to you as truth does NOT line up with his Word...then it isn't GOD.

Jesus said that God's new Covenant will be written in the hearts of men. Is that everyone except for me? ;)

Also, I was under the impression God could do as he pleases. Do you think he is bound by the Bible?

Texas,

He is bound by his WORD. He won't go against it.. ever. He isn't going to tell you something that is contrary to what he has already said. That is all I mean.

So IF you saw Jesus perform miracles would you believe?
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)
Under proper scientific observing conditions with any possibility of chichanery taken away? Sure.

Yet you accuse atheists of having their mind made up. Does the word hypocrite mean anything to you?

And you are implying-------what?

And you are implying-------what?

That you're a hypocrite. If your fine with that so am I. I just wanted you to know that there is a word for what you are.

And you are implying-------what?

First you stated : "Since I am one of His sons, and am acquainted with Him by the Holy Spirit, nothing can convince me that He doesn't exist."

A wild claim, as no OSE for that suggestion is provided.

Than you stated : "The man with the experience is never at a disadvantage to the man with the argument".

Another wild claim, as no OSE for that suggestion is provided.

Actually you SUGGEST you are better than one without "the experience".

Better? To state that (specially without any support) is a case of haughtiness and hypocrisy.

Seeing the conversation (posts #104 and 105) it seems more a case of :

"If you're not perfect yourself , you'd better tone down to others !!! "

:D :D :D :D :D :D

.

.

Back to the topic : If you saw Jesus work miracles would you believe?

And if so, WHY ? And WHAT would you believe in that case ?
Or is the question actually NONSENSICAL, as Jesus died some 2000 years ago, and IF (note the big "IF") in some hypothetical way Jesus would come back, it would (accordingly to the Christian manual to life) be too late anyway to believe.

:)

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.

That your a hypocrite. If your fine with that so am I. I just wanted you to know that there is a word for what you are.

Because I state that you can not change my mind, and that nothing I can say will change yours, that makes me a hypocrite? You have a strange concept of what that is.

That isn't what you said if it was you wouldn't be a hypocrite what you said what that our minds were made up and nothing would change our minds, as if you had an open mind.

Back to the topic : If you saw Jesus work miracles would you believe?

And if so, WHY ? And WHAT would you believe in that case ?
Or is the question actually NONSENSICAL, as Jesus died some 2000 years ago, and IF (note the big "IF") in some hypothetical way Jesus would come back, it would (accordingly to the Christian manual to life) be too late anyway to believe.

:)

.

.


Cred,

You are wrong. It wouldn't be too late to believe. The only ones that it will be too late for is the ones that HEARD the truth (the gospel) and rejected it. They will be the ones with the mark of the beast on their forehead or right hand.

(p.s. you will have to take your mark on the hand on account of the gigantic L on your forehead).. LOL I crack me up. It was a joke.. don't go getting all ticked at me.:D

I have heard that we all in some ways or times are hypocrites.
I TEND to agree with that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi Fred,
Could you answer the question I asked (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/if-you-saw-jesus-work-miracles-would-you-believe-265896-10.html#post1355446) way back on page 10?

NeedKarma,
The question was directed at anyone on this thread.
I thot that was obvious.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Is the thread/question intended for all users of AMHD?

NeedKarma,
So what is AMHD?
Fred

Ask Me Help Desk.

Apparently many folks in some towns did not.
The seeds were plentifully sown but the harvest was meager.
See here.
Today's Gospel (Lk 10:13-16): Jesus said, «Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! So many miracles have been worked in you! If the same miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would already be sitting in ashes and wearing the sackcloth of repentance. Surely for Tyre and Sidon it will be better than for you on the Judgment Day. And what of you, city of Capernaum? Will you be lifted up to heaven? You will be thrown down to the place of the dead. Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me».
So IF you saw Jesus perform miracles would you believe?
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

The above scripture may as well be Chinese for the amount of sense it makes to me, so I thought I would add another translation since this thread seems to be going nowhere fast... :D

Luke 10:13-16 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson



13-14"Doom, Chorazin! Doom, Bethsaida! If Tyre and Sidon had been given half the chances given you, they'd have been on their knees long ago, repenting and crying for mercy. Tyre and Sidon will have it easy on Judgment Day compared to you.

15"And you, Capernaum! Do you think you're about to be promoted to heaven? Think again. You're on a mudslide to hell.

16"The one who listens to you, listens to me. The one who rejects you, rejects me. And rejecting me is the same as rejecting God, who sent me."

That isn't what you said if it was you wouldn't be a hypocrite what you said what that our minds were made up and nothing would change our minds, as if you had an open mind.

That is where you err. I have NEVER said I have an open mind, at least on this subject.

Is that better?

Yes but it is the open mind that would have made you not a hypocrite.
Matthew 7:5
5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Choux,
BUT.....
If you saw Jesus working miracles would you believe?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I didn't see Jesus working miracles but there is no doubt in my mind that he did.

I also believe that GOD works miracles every day.

I have seen Jesus work miracles and I do believe.

That is where you err. I have NEVER said I have an open mind, at least on this subject.
That addition was completely unnecessary ! Indeed you never said that. Nor have you.

:D :D :D :D :D :D

.

.

Apparently many folks in some towns did not.
The seeds were plentifully sown but the harvest was meager.
See here.
Today's Gospel (Lk 10:13-16): Jesus said, «Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! So many miracles have been worked in you! If the same miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would already be sitting in ashes and wearing the sackcloth of repentance. Surely for Tyre and Sidon it will be better than for you on the Judgment Day. And what of you, city of Capernaum? Will you be lifted up to heaven? You will be thrown down to the place of the dead. Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me».
So IF you saw Jesus perform miracles would you believe?
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

I have faith and I would believe because of that faith. It doesn't matter if Jesus stood before people today and raised a man from the dead. Some would walk away unbelieving just like they did when he raised Lazarus. Why? Because it takes FAITH. It is no different today. We have the written WORD of God which is so utterly awesome I am really without words to describe it. The Lord placed his WORD before his NAME. I can pick up the Word... read what HE says is going to take place in the future and watch it come to pass pretty much before my eyes. How awesome is THAT! But many people shake their heads and laugh.
This is why I don't try to prove anything. I KNOW THAT I KNOW and I will share it. But ultimately it takes faith to come to God or believe in miracles.

Fred : David Copperfield made an entire Jet airplane disappear on stage, life, with a huge public present - LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NfoAHH6sTQ).
Do I BELIEVE that he really made that airplane disappear? Of course not. It was an illusion trick. Not a miracle.

If you saw Jesus work miracles would you believe?
As in David Copperfield's case : what is a miracle? Is it a miracle or an illusion ?

Your question first has to be more specific : what do you qualify as miracle ?
And further : if one does not see a logical explanation for something happening, is that a valid case of miracle?

Next to that : and even if there was a miracle : why that specific conclusion ? Why would one conclude a supra-natural entity to exist for having viewed one or more miracles ?

You BELIEVE in "God" or you don't. I don't think it is related to illusions or "miracles", but much more to a sense of longing to exist beyond the grave and the hope to see again all those lost love-ones.

:)

.
.

ClassyT,
Thanks much.
Yes It does take faith to believe as a Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred : David Copperfield made an entire Jet airplane disappear on stage, life, with a huge public present - LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NfoAHH6sTQ).
Do I BELIEVE that he really made that airplane disappear? Of course not. It was an illusion trick. Not a miracle.

If you saw Jesus work miracles would you believe?
As in David Copperfield's case : what is a miracle? Is it a miracle or an illusion ?

Your question first has to be more specific : what do you qualify as miracle ?
And further : if one does not see a logical explanation for something happening, is that a valid case of miracle?

Next to that : and even if there was a miracle : why that specific conclusion ? Why would one conclude a supra-natural entity to exist for having viewed one or more miracles ?

You BELIEVE in "God" or you don't. I don't think it is related to illusions or "miracles", but much more to a sense of longing to exist beyond the grave and the hope to see again all those lost love-ones.

:)

.
.

Perhaps a miracle has something 'good' for its occurrence, not just to amaze people, but a true reason behind it. :rolleyes::eek::rolleyes:

Fred : David Copperfield made an entire Jet airplane disappear on stage, life, with a huge public present - LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NfoAHH6sTQ).
Do I BELIEVE that he really made that airplane disappear? Of course not. It was an illusion trick. Not a miracle.

If you saw Jesus work miracles would you believe?
As in David Copperfield's case : what is a miracle? Is it a miracle or an illusion ?

Your question first has to be more specific : what do you qualify as miracle ?
And further : if one does not see a logical explanation for something happening, is that a valid case of miracle?

Next to that : and even if there was a miracle : why that specific conclusion ? Why would one conclude a supra-natural entity to exist for having viewed one or more miracles ?

You BELIEVE in "God" or you don't. I don't think it is related to illusions or "miracles", but much more to a sense of longing to exist beyond the grave and the hope to see again all those lost love-ones.

:)

.
.

Well I believe that Fred asked if you saw JESUS perform a miracle would you believe? One would conclude a supra-natural entity because JESUS said he was GOD and one way he proved it was by performing miracles.

Perhaps a miracle has something 'good' for its occurence, not just to amaze people, but a true reason behind it.


Well i believe that Fred asked if you saw JESUS perform a miracle would you believe?

Perhaps... But how does one define properly what is a "miracle", and in such a way that it is VALID in respect to this topic?


One would conclude a supra-natural entity because JESUS said he was GOD and one way he proved it was by performing miracles.
That is what the Bible states. But did he, i.e. was that a VALID statement, or do you only BELIEVE that?


:rolleyes:

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.

That addition was completely unnecessary ! Indeed you never said that. Nor have you.

:D :D :D :D :D :D

.

.

Rave on Cred. I KNOW what I know.

BTW, how long has it been since you have had a new thought? Your posts seem like you might have a series of comments that you click on & post.

That's just my OPINION of course.

Rave on Cred. I KNOW what I know. BTW, how long has it been since you have had a new thought? Your posts seem like you might have a series of comments that you click on & post. That's just my OPINION of course.

Ahhh : you reacted to my post that referred to your post in which you stated :


That is where you err. I have NEVER said I have an open mind, at least on this subject. and to which I replied :

That addition was completely unnecessary ! Indeed you never said that. Nor have you.

But that has nothing to do with miracles and belief!
Do you deny than that you stated that yourself?
Or do you suggest now that you have an open mind?
If anyone is raving here it certainly is not me...

:D :rolleyes: :p :) :rolleyes: :D

.

.

Unknown008,
For all here I define what I mean by a miracle as it is something done for good that is done by super natural means. In other words not a trick and is unexplainable by any means including scientific.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

For all here I define what I mean by a miracle as it is something done for good that is done by super natural means. In other words not a trick and is unexplainable by any means including scientific.
Dear Fred, you have preset the question now so far that only theists - who already BELIEVE in deities - are asked if they would believe in Jesus if they would see how Jesus would perhaps operate when performing his "miracles".

But most theists already BELIEVE that, so why ask that than to them?
Should you not ask that to those who do NOT BELIEVE in deities and miracles??

:rolleyes:

.

.

Fred,

I have faith and i would believe because of that faith. It doesn't matter if Jesus stood before people today and raised a man from the dead. Some would walk away unbelieving just like they did when he raised Lazarus. Why? because it takes FAITH. It is no different today. We have the written WORD of God which is so utterly awesome I am really without words to describe it. The Lord placed his WORD before his NAME. I can pick up the Word...read what HE says is going to take place in the future and watch it come to pass pretty much before my eyes. How awesome is THAT! But many people shake their heads and laugh.
This is why I don't try to prove anything. I KNOW THAT I KNOW and I will share it. But ultimately it takes faith to come to God or believe in miracles.


Absolutely agree!

I believe the miracles that Jesus performed in the Bible, but TO ACTUALLY SEE JESUS PERFORM A MIRACLE! - wow, that would be awesome :D




On a lighter note, there miracles in sports [ 69' mets for example ] all the time - just not for the Chicago Cubs :(

Cred,
Believe it or not I ask question to get answers.
Whether you think that are worthwhile or not bothers me not at all.
I already know from years of past experience what your answers will be; at least one of about 2 dozen different ones you have constantly used over the last 6 ot 7 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

inthebox,
Yes indeed that would be awesome.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Dear Fred,

And I already know from years of past experience what your answers will be; at least the one you have constantly used over the last 6 to 7 years. An answer entirely based on BELIEF only!!

Peace and kindness to you too,

John

:)

.

.

Cred,
I have thousands of different answers for I am not limited to badgering people about belief.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

No Fred : you don't.
All you have is your BELIEF and FAITH in the existence of "God".
And that is fine with me.

But that is not any valid support to elevate what you BELIEVE into the domain of reality...

Peace and kindness to you 2,

John

Cred, pleas don't wevenm try to tell me what I have of have not.
You have know idea,
You mind is closed to what I have.
Fred

cred, pleas don't wevenm try to tell me what I have of have not.
You have know idea, You mind is closed to what I have. Fred
Dear Fred : you can CLAIM that, but it ain't correct, and you know that.
Indeed I do not know every little thought between your ears. And I never claimed I know that.
But I know that all are related to the main line, the unsupported claim of the existence of "God".

My mind is not closed to religious beliefs and ideas. I even respect such ideas and beliefs.
What I do not respect is the innerneed by some Christians to demand and insist that what they BELIEVE is "true" and factual, without ever being able to support their wild religious claims beyond the subjective level.

Those Christians who can respect my views on this can count on my full support towards their religious worldview (I actually support many RC activities and donate generously towards worthwhile projects). Those who don't still receive my respect for their religious views, but not for their wild religious claims and conclusions.

That, dear Fred, is why whatever "miracles" (read illusions, tricks) would be performed by whomever, it would have no influence on my worldview that - in view of the lack of even the slightest iota of OSE thereto - excludes supernatural entities , simply because they do not seem to exist.

Just as in the topic "Objective Suggested Evidence for the existence of "Objective Suggested Evidence for the existence of ", where I underline that for many non-believers to accept the existence of ", where I underline that for many non-believers to accept the existence of " ONLY Direct Objective Supported Evidence for the existence of that same "God" will do. Nothing else's. Not even illusions and (party) tricks , like performing "miracles"!!

Have a nice day, Fred!!

:)

.

.

Cred,

The Question that Fred asked is if you saw JESUS perform miracles would you believe. You have answered. You wouldn't. Thank you for that. Now run along and be obnoxious somewhere else.

classyT,
Thanks much.
Fred

Cred,
The Question that Fred asked is if you saw JESUS perform miracles would you believe. You have answered. You wouldn't. Thank you for that. Now run along and be obnoxious somewhere else.
There are no rules on the number of times you are allowed to reply in a topic.
Besides that : I won't run along anything, and I am only obnoxious in the eyes of the intolerant religious fundamentalists. People like you.

:D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

.

.

There are no rules on the number of times you are allowed to reply in a topic.
Besides that : I won't run along anything, and I am only obnoxious in the eyes of the intolerant religious fundamentalists. People like you.


.

.

Yeah, I know there are no rules to the number of times you can say the same thing over and over and over. IT's just that you bore us to tears.

Oh cred... I love it when you call me intolerant religious fundamentalist... how you do go on! ;)

Psst. You ARE obnoxious and others think so too... they just aren't as honest as me.:D

... they just aren't as honest as me.
You and honest ? If that were true it would be a real miracle!! :D
Your claim on that Biology degree comes to mind : you can change the handle, but you're still the same person !

:D :D :D :D :D

.

.

!!

michealb,
The obvious I spoke of was REAL miracles which could not be faked and have been proven so many, many times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Such as? Be specific and be ready to back it up with first hand fact.

[QUOTE=arcura;1307077]michealb.
Sorry, I do not believe that all miracles could be faked.
If the are miracles they are not fake.
A fake diamond is a fake not a diamond. The same for so-called fake miracles.
I have seen miracles and know that they were not faked for I knew the people involved.
Some years ago there was a TV program called That's Incredible.
On it there were several miracles performed that were tested by doctors and scientists to verify that they were not faked.
On particular one was absolutely amazing.
A Catholic priest, Father D'Orio, said that it was the holy spirit that caused a man born with one leg shorted than the other to grow right there on camera in front of witnesses who knew the man and scientists who examined him
There are thousands of such cases.
Whether you believe them or not the record of them stands in many places around the world.
You are probably like those mentioned in the bible that did not believe.
I do believe what I saw and knew the people involved. They were not fakes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)[/QUOTE

How do you know they were not fakes? A leg grew right there on camera in front of witnesses? With all these thousands of cases documented, why would we need doctors or hospitals. Why not just call one of these miracle performers?

The guy above just does not get it NO MATTER WHAT!

There are 3 of them, 2 more prevalent than the third but still. They participate in EVERY religious discussion trying to find fault with everything said. In truth, I'd wager nobody on these boards finds them insightful nor welcome for that matter in regards to religious discussion.

Sorry Arcura, I just think it wrong for these three to enter into every discussion whether it is about the existence of God or not.

Your statement is unfair. If you are so confident of your beliefs, you should have no problem defending it. Heck, you might even convert someone. I welcome their insight and I am a believer in god. I just don't fall for every religious freako out there.

Why doesn't god heal all people then or at least all of his followers?

Surely the five year old dying of cancer who has done nothing wrong in their life is just as worthy of being healed as anyone else.

Why has god never healed an amputee?

I wonder the same thing. Why would God heal some and leave others to suffer and die?
Make it good. Not just another vague "we don't know Gods plan" cop out answer. I'm so fed up with empty answers.

Matt 13:58
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
(KJV)

Matt 17:19-20
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
(KJV)

Unbelief keeps us from receiving the miracles that we need.

Rom 3:3
3 For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
(KJV)

Our unbelief does not change what God can and will do in response to unwavering faith.

Does this answer your question?

I don't know that I believe in God in any sort of traditional sense, but I like Jesus; not so much those that interpret him or the bible. In my life I have met and heard a great many Christian and one thing is for certain, not all of them interpret the bible in the same way.

However, being sort of a non-believer I am here to learn more in my quest with regard to my existence or help people examine their beliefs through the prism of my life experiences and what 'God' has revealed to me personally; if that makes sense to anyone...lol.

Note: I answered the original post about a page ago.

It makes perfect sense to me. I am so in agreement with you. However, I do believe in a personal god for me. But that does not stop me for wanting to know more and explore and examine others beliefs. And, I am too much of realist to fall for everything coming down the pike.;)

Texas Parent, I think we may have very similar beliefs.

I myself am a Deist;

Deism is the belief that a supreme God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason alone, without dependence on revelation. It is in contrast with fideism, found in many forms of Christianity[1], Islamic and Judaic teachings, which holds that religious truths rely upon revelation in sacred scriptures and upon the testimony of other people as well as reasoning.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God has a plan for the universe, which he does not alter by intervening in the affairs of human life nor by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God's greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability to reason.

Thank you Alten. I now know what to call myself. :)

Thank you so much, I wondered if there were others who thought along similiar lines. For most of my life I have felt like an orphan, trying to fit in and grow spiritually, but incapable of abandoning MY truth and having no one to share my thoughts on the matter with.

I am interested in finding out more about Deists; do you have any suggestions as to where I might learn more?

ME TOO!! I am not your average run of the mill christian like the rest of my family and in accordance of how I was raised. I "dared" to question. Beliefs :rolleyes:have to resonate as truth in my soul and gut. I can't imagine just buying into everything I've been told hook, line, and sinker. Too sheep like for me. I

Texas Parent, I felt exactly the same way you did, in fact, until a few months ago I didn't even have a name for my beliefs, it was Cred that told me about Deism, and after reading the definition I was so relieved, yup, that's exactly what I believe.

There are alot of sites on the web that will give you a better understanding. If you like I could PM you a few links, or you can google Deism, or Deists, that should give you a starting point.

I too am very glad to meet someone with the same beliefs as mine, I was beginning to think I was the only one on this site that believed this way. :)

Count me in too!! :D

To Me a Deist is one who believes in God.
I do.
But I'm also a Christian.
Fred

To Me a Deist is one who believes in God.
I do.
But I'm also a Christian.
Fred

Common ground is a good thing ;)

TexasParent
Indeed it is.
Fred