I know what I believe forgiveness to be, but what do you believe it is?

How do you forgive and is it possible to forget?

If you have any answer or input to any of these questions, I would really appreciate it.:)

For me personally. Well I had an argument or discussion with my mother in law. For me you can always find forgiveness, although I admit it is not always easy, but I can not forget. My mother in law says if you do not forget you can't forgive.. Ya, but the thing is you can always forgive but what happens when a person continues to do the same thing over and over and over again. If you forgive and forget it will continue to happen and repeat itself, but if you forgive and remember you will be able to prevent getting hurt over and over again at the same time forgive the person for their behaviour.

Does that sound mixed up? What are your personally thoughts on this?

Joe

Aqua, I believe that forgiveness is when you forgive someone for their actions, but I personally do not believe it is possible to forget.

At one time in my life I was beaten by someone close to me. I forgave his actions in that I do not ever bring that incident up even in a heated argument, but I will never forget what happened.

It was hard for me to forgive and took a long time, but time heals all wounds.

However, I believe that certain circumstances call for different measures.

I could not comment for you Jesushelper, so here I will say, yes same wavelength. You have to remember to learn from mistakes.

Because of some life-threatening experiences, I have come to realise that forgiveness is about helping me, so I have cultivated the ability to forgive no matter what. I am sincere in this. Anything.

It is possible to forgive without receiving an apology (or refusing one that is not acceptable - more on that in a moment). I'll admit on some deeply painful events I have taken longer to forgive, but I eventually get there. It is a release and a welcome one too when it comes.

However with that said, forgiveness doesn't in any way imply that I will trust again or risk vulnerability. That is an entirely separate matter that often gets mixed up with forgiveness. I rebuild the broken trust when a number of conditions are met. Seeking my forgiveness and/or offering an apology is just a good start in that process. I want to see sincere change, if I am to trust again. So this notion of apologizing just to make me gloss over my feelings into some kind of pseudo-forgiveness when nothing else has really changed hits me as not a real apology, and I don't accept it. To do so would make me as phoney or false as them.

That probably begs the question how do you forgive someone who's apology you haven't accepted or will never receive? All I can say is the forgiveness lets go of my end of the resentment/hurt and the apology, if done correctly, releases them of the guilt and hopefully of the wrong behavior too while allowing me to regain some of the lost trust.

Those who I have forgiven but remain distrustful about are simply sick people who don't understand what they are doing. Like M. Scott Peck in People Of The Lie, I don't have "bad" in my vocabulary so sick (as in not spiritually well) is as close as it gets. Whenever I am around them, I am careful but not ever hostile... no need for hostile, really, since the forgiveness flushes that out.

To forget completely (like it totally slipped my mind) is possible only when the trust is rebuilt completely or the error was so slight to begin with. Otherwise its not meant to be forgotten. It is one of many lessons I am meant to learn.

This is one of my favourite topics (in case you can't tell and I hope that wasn't too many thoughts! :D ) and a good question, Aqua - thanks!

The answer, for me, anyhoo is that it depends who you are referring to. If you are trying to forgive and forget with a living relative or friend, then I think you can be happy with just forgiving them (unless they perpetuate their wrongdoing) I don't think you can forget as long as you are neurologically intact.
If now the person is deceased and you need to forgive and forget due to some type of traumatization; then I think that maybe you didn't need to forgive at all, but you forgot most of the feeling anyway, so you mostly forgot it anyway. But it still would be wise to forgive them for your own peace of mind.

:confused:

The answer, for me, anyhoo is that it depends who you are referring to. If you are trying to forgive and forget with a living relative or friend, then I think you can be happy with just forgiving them (unless they perpetuate their wrongdoing) I don't think you can forget as long as you are neurologically intact.
If now the person is deceased and you need to forgive and forget due to some type of traumatization; then I think that maybe you didn't need to forgive at all, but you forgot most of the feeling anyway, so you mostly forgot it anyway. But it still would be wise to forgive them for your own peace of mind.

:confused:
I agree that forgiving helps me to heal and move on ,but forgeting is a whole new ballgame as I'll never forget anything and will learn from that experience for future reference!:cool:

I'm not sure if I've forgiven my biological father or not (he committed suicide in front of me). I guess if I'm not sure then I probably haven't. But yes I agree with what everyone has said, it's important to forgive for your own mental health and peace of mind, not for the sake of the person who wronged you. And forgetting is definitely NOT possible for me, unless I had a lobotomy or something!!

I forgave my biological mother a while back, but it took me a couple of years to do so. It was more of a process than an actual "act". I guess my only advice to anyone is, don't feel forced to forgive, be open to it and when you are ready it will happen.

31pumpkin agrees: Hard one to accept but I personally think that for anyone to kill themselves in the 1st place, they have to be at least temporarily insane. Understanding may be all that you need for a long time. I've been there unfortunately.

Yup I totally agree with you, he was not well at the time. Still, it was very hard to take, he also killed his girlfriend at the same time and turned the gun on me too, although I am all right obviously.

I hope at some point to forgive him, but even knowing that he was ill doesn't much help the anger I feel. I guess part of that comes from the fact that my biological mother was also mentally ill and she didn't kill herself. You can't compare 2 people obviously but it's hard not to. Anyway I was in a suicide survivor's support group for a while, didn't get much out of it, but I may try again at some point.

Sorry to hear that you have had a similar experience. It's one of the worst things you can experience IMO.

ORANGE:
Interesting that you mention one thing ,anger. I couldn't ever say I had any anger after my father killed my mother & turned the rifle on himself when I was 18. So I think it was because the rest of my memories were completely opposite & positive. So I guess it has to do with your relationship to begin with. If it was something like abuse, then I can understand even hatred.

I hope I didn't freak you out,

God, smoke, & rock & roll. Ain't this life something else?

No you didn't freak me out... your experience is very similar to mine!

Yeah I never had a good experience with my biological father... he was always an a** and his murder/suicide was the crowning glory of that legacy. There are things I am more angry about with him even than his suicide, so yeah you're right again, it could be because I don't have many (or any!) positive memories of him.

Thank you all for your answers so far. I do hope that I too will be able to forgive the wrong doings in my life. I have a hard time with trying not to think about the actions when faced with the people. Some of the things that happen truly change who you are and affect the person you are. I too don't think forgetting is always possible.

I try to teach my children that an apology also means that you are going to try your best not to do that same wrong again. I would like to know how many chances you have to give people and how many you can expect. I would think that it would have to do with the wrong.

I hope some of this made sense. :confused:

ORANGE:

I am no psychiatrist, so I can only imagine where that anger goes - where there was no love to fall back on. I saw the book "look back in anger" and I knew I wouldn't care to read it. Wow, I think I would be satisfied with that person burning in hell. But that's just my thoughts.

Now, we look at a new reality. For one, I'm glad God found me in time.Better late than too late! That all has turned from darkness to light. That with each generation we are responsible for,we can take the middle road in teaching them that peace is the answer. And what a generation mine was for peace! :) :)

I think my daughters take after me. If someone's done them wrong and if they feel they are truly right to expect an apology... then they are quite assertive to get one.

Occasionally I ponder if someone will forgive ME. But it fades. I think exactly what my mother said to me once... " I did the best I knew how" So if I forgave HER then that's all there must be. With an added feature to her sentence... "then God shows up!"


I blame myself if anyone robs my peace of mind. Forgetting helped me find a new reality. Some friends I met after D-Day never knew the truth about me. But I couldn't have picked up on their happy vibe if I didn't tell white lies. It worked for me. True, I don't forget the happening, and revisit it from time to time and take rx for insomnia. So I guess the shrink is in agreement with me because they probably just feel sorry for me and give me the script. It's all about having a sound mind. Just have to cope with it.


I'm taking it light. At least I know I'm free! :rolleyes:

I know what I believe forgiveness to be, but what do you believe it is?

How do you forgive and is it possible to forget?

If you have any answer or input to any of these questions, I would really appreciate it.:)


Forgiveness doesn't require forgetting only an effort to keep such things out of our minds. It involves the casting aside of anger and feelings of revenge and accepting the honest contriteness of the person or persons involved. This forgiveness can also be based on the ignorance or mental incapacities or misunderstandings of the perpetrators of any injustice we suffer.

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do...


BTW

Everyone doesn't deserve to be forgiven for things they do. Some persons vehemently remain unrepentant though they are well-informed and very aware of all issues involved and don't want to be forgiven. Forgiving the purposefully-wicked can actually be a sin. God doesn't.

Jeremiah 30:23
Behold, the tempest of Jehovah, even his wrath, is gone forth, a sweeping tempest: it shall burst upon the head of the wicked. KJV


But as for taking action, we have a legal system which regulates that for the sake of societal order..

Thanks starman. I will have to look into the comment about forgiving the purposefully-wicked. That is so interesting.

Luke 23:34 "And jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not whata they do..."

I thought something was only a sin if you knew what you it was wrong. So you wouldn't need forgiveness if you hurt someone unknowingly but they might still need to forgive you if they are aware of it? Again making forgiveness for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving.

Forgiving the purposefully-wicked can actually be a sin. God doesn't.

Jeremiah 30:23
Behold, the tempest of Jehovah, even his wrath, is gone forth, a sweeping tempest: it shall burst upon the head of the wicked. KJV

This is a big leap so don't all jump on me at once, okay? :o

Unless I am showing general ignorance in religious matter, I don't exactly see here the instructions that says God doesn't forgive, let alone instructions that are meant for us humans... unless our name is Jehovah also? The quote only makes it clear that God exacts some kind of punishment (wrath) but makes no mention of forgiveness or lack of.

Starman, where is it written that if we forgive it is a sin please?

I would like to know as well. As far as I know it does not say anywhere once in the old testament or new testament that if we forgive it is a sin!

Joe

See, it is a very curious question, this one about forgiveness.

Without going into any detail I too have been hurt by others to be point of almost not surviving. Although this screwed me up for a long time, I loved people who are way too sick to trust, and I have forgiven people who repeat the mistakes seemingly knowing its wrong, knowing there are grave consequences. I am much better now having had a lot of help from professionals. With their help however, I came to a well thought out conclusion that I still love them, as unbelievable as that may seem.

Having had a front row seat to what I consider some of the sickest behavior out there, I am not able to report to you if it's a case of they couldn't or wouldn't. I really don't know. Its hard for me to imagine Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dalmer chose that. So I leave that sort of judgement up to God, or the creator or whoever it is we face when we leave here.

I am comfortable with M. Scott Peck's definition of evil as just the ultimate sickness. It makes really big sense to me to see it that way, it fits my empirical data like two piece of puzzle. So how would I treat a sick friend? Especially one capable of great destructive behaviors? Carefully, no doubt. But by the same token I wouldn't protect them from worldly consequences - that's not my job either. If I pray for them, it could possible be a lot like what the rabbi offered in Fiddler On The Roof: "God bless and keep the czar... far away from us!" LOL

But that wouldn't stop me from seeking forgiveness since the forgiveness is for me, not them. And should God need to meter out something more than that, well that seems like God's business to me. I have enough trouble just sorting out mine for the most part! LOL

PS - Chava, Orange or Aqua: If you ever want any help working on any forgiveness in a more personal sense, I am humbly offering for what its worth...

This is a big leap so don't all jump on me at once, okay?? :o

Unless I am showing general ignorance in religious matter, I don't exactly see here the instructions that says God doesn't forgive, let alone instructions that are meant for us humans ...unless our name is Jehovah also? The quote only makes it clear that God exacts some kind of punishment (wrath) but makes no mention of forgiveness or lack of.

Starman, where is it written that if we forgive it is a sin please?


But God does forgive:

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? Saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Psalm 86:5
For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in lovingkindness unto all them that call upon thee.

Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.


The scripture speaks of those who receive God's wrath. The reason we can conclude that involves no forgiveness is because God's wrath results in eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection.

Psalm 37:37-39
When the wicked spring as the grass, And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; It is that they shall be destroyed for ever.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.


BTW

To forgive becomes a sin if we forgive those that God doesn't want us to forgive because he himself doesn't forgive them. Here is an example:

Deuteronomy 7:16
And thou shalt consume all the peoples that Jehovah thy God shall deliver unto thee; thine eye shall not pity them...


http://www.sigler.org/mckay/etpunish.htm

The Attitude of the Godly Towards God's Enemies
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKzFlnZE.XoAwS1rCqMX;_ylu=X3oDMTBvdmM3bGl xBHBndANhdl93ZWJfcmVzdWx0BHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=12oh5oujd/EXP=1148708933/**http%3a//www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0508_Sandlin_-_Gods_Enemi.html

It is all in interpretation, but remember Jesus. What did he ask, when he was being murdered up on the cross.

Joe

I would like to know as well. As far as I know it does not say anywhere once in the old testament or new testament that if we forgive it is a sin!

Joe

I wasn't using the scripture in that unscriptural way. Actually, there is nothing in that scripture which makes it amenable to being used in support of that idea. If indeed there is-pray tell. : )

Aqua, I believe that forgiveness is when you forgive someone for their actions, but I personally do not believe it is possible to forget.

At one time in my life I was beaten by someone close to me. I forgave his actions in that I do not ever bring that incident up even in a heated argument, but I will never forget what happened.

It was hard for me to forgive and took a long time, but time heals all wounds.

However, I believe that certain circumstances call for different measures.

I agree.
Its difficult or forgive and forget, but forgiveness comes in time, once you slowly heal your pain, but forgetting is slightly harder.

Hi,
Great answers.
I can only echo some of them.
Forgiveness is part of being a Christian; but forgetting about it is a different story! "I forgive you" means forgetting about oneself, and helping another.
But, again, we don't want to "shut the door" completely on the past, but we want to do so, to the extent that the past doesn't bother us anymore. As another suggested, we learn from our mistakes. Forgetting about the past means we would not remember those mistakes; hence can't act "in the now" to better ourselves.
Some do not have the capacity for forgiveness, and in my opinion, it's because of Ego and Pride. The old saying that "Pride goeth before the fall" is so true. It is only with humility, practicing being humble, that one finds it within oneself to forgive someone for past actions.
But, remembering those actions can help in the future, not following "prey" to the same things again!

I agree with forgiveness comes with being a Christian. However, I also believe that forgiveness can come with time passing.

With that I mean if a persons actions or words have been opposite to the philosophy of "do onto others as you would have them do unto you" Well, then that person certainly would have to SHOW me some change in the actions/attitude to make amends. If they want to be friendly or even loving, they must improve or their out!

I wouldn't even consider being burdened by having to forgive someone if they were very obviously the wrong ones. I'd pretty much forget about them and their limited intelligence until they come into the picture again, and then see if they've changed. I'm at peace with that.

It works both ways. I expect the same from myself.

To forgive becomes a sin if we forgive those that God doesn't want us to forgive because he himself doesn't forgive them. Here is an example:

Deuteronomy 7:16
And thou shalt consume all the peoples that Jehovah thy God shall deliver unto thee; thine eye shall not pity them....


http://www.sigler.org/mckay/etpunish.htm

The Attitude of the Godly Towards God's Enemies
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKzFlnZE.XoAwS1rCqMX;_ylu=X3oDMTBvdmM3bGl xBHBndANhdl93ZWJfcmVzdWx0BHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=12oh5oujd/EXP=1148708933/**http%3a//www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0508_Sandlin_-_Gods_Enemi.html


Thank you Starman for the answer you provided here.
Although I couldn't see unforgiveness in the word "consume" in your scriptural quote, and I saw only a little more in that first site you linked, I did see it laid out plainly in the last site. You were right about how God is portrayed as not forgiving in some circumstances.

It was interesting (not that I agree with Christianity, mind you and all of my statements about forgiveness have been from a non-religious or generally spiritual only place) but I am more educated about it now - thank you. :)

I wouldn't even consider being burdened by having to forgive someone if they were very obviously the wrong ones.
It works both ways. I expect the same from myself.

I think that forgiveness is important for the person doing the forgiving. I agree that forgiveness can come with time but I think that you should forgive those that are obviously wrong. Isn't who is wrong obvious most of the time?:rolleyes:

I don't think there is a circumstance when you shouldn't forgive. I thought God commanded us to forgive others as He forgives us?

Thank you Starman for the answer you provided here.
Although I couldn't see unforgiveness in the word "consume" in your scriptural quote, and I saw only a little more in that first site you linked, I did see it laid out plainly in the last site. You were right about how God is portrayed as not forgiving in some circumstances.

It was interesting (not that I agree with Christianity, mind you and all of my statements about forgiveness have been from a non-religious or generally spiritual only place) but I am more educated about it now - thank you. :)


Glad you benefited from the info valinors_sorrow.

About the word "consume," the KJV can be a bit difficult to understand at times due to the use of archaic English expressions. But I use because it is public domain. The word consume, is translated in other Bible versions as "destroy". Feeling no pity meant that they were to show the same unforgiving attitude that God was displaying toward those people at that time. The reason for this is explained at the following site

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/genocide.html

Feeling no pity meant that they were to show the same unforgiving attitude that God was displaying toward those people at that time.

I again thank you for further clarity. You know though, that I am not entirely in keeping with Christianity. This very topic has been one of my major sticking points with certain faiths. A religion that pits humankind against humankind is just not possible from the creator who created me. With all due respect to those of great faith here, I think some parts of religions may have been written more by erroring humans than any Divinity.

And that is just my little ol' opinion and nothing to get worked up about too. :o

But that doesn't mean I am not open to looking at how religions sanction such actions explicitly. In case I need to debate my current position more carefully. Or in case I am wrong too. :eek: My understanding of such matters are an ever-evolving thing. Sometimes daily too LOL.

But you see now why I am free to be the supporter of total forgiveness for anything anyone can possibly do. It is one of the main tenants of my overall spirituality. It goes the very idea that all actions we take come from one of two places: love or fear. Everything else is just a variation on those two.

My empirical data says I make better spiritual decisions out of love, not fear. Not that fear isn't appropriate at times or isn't supposed to be there, just that it really gets in the way sometimes. My personal journey has been to evolve so that I, one by one, trade in my fear-based reactions for love-based one. It's been interesting,

In that sense then, forgiveness = love and nonforgiveness = fear. As a fair counterpoint to some of views expressed here, I would like to "testify" that I think I have forgiven some of the worst from people and I have only experienced positives things from it, one of which is a more heightened sense of connection spiritually. To my creator, to myself and to all of you.

I thought you might enjoy seeing some of what is behind my comments about forgiveness, at least I hope you did. :p

...I am free to be the supporter of total forgiveness for anything anyone can possibly do. :p

I agree with this completely. I know some things would definitely be more difficult for me to forgive and as "pumpkin" said, sometimes forgiveness comes with time.

As Valinor's Sorrow pointed out, such an opinion requires that we reject parts of the Bible we choose to disagree with. Those of us who accept the whole Bible as God's word are not free to pick add delete or otherwise blatantly msinterpret for or own convenience.

Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But I feel that Valinor at least admits that he isn't relying on the Bible as his final authority. In contrast, to do as Valinor does and to say that one depends on the Bible as his final authority is irrational and some might even dare to call it hypocritical.

BTW

I also find it self-contradictory that some who are in favor of unconditional forgiveness for everyone regardless of the offense are the very ones who would protest if all the unrepentant child molestors, rapists, ax murderers, habitual thieves, and so on were unconditionally forgiven and suddenly released on society because they are forgiven. After all, forgiveness does not imprison, It forgets and starts anew doesn't it?

But of course here we probably will draw the line won't we?

It's when we are told by the Bible that God draws the line that irks us.

But the truth of the matter is that some people don't deserve to be forgiven, and never will deserve to be forgiven because they prefer sin. This is a very basic Christian biblical doctrine and ignorance of it only shows that we need to become more conversant with the Bible.


Philippians 3:18-20 (New King James Version)

18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

I don't think there is a circumstance when you shouldn't forgive. I thought God commanded us to forgive others as He forgives us?


Sometimes I think it's up to God to forgive certain injustices. What happens when (God forbid) your brother gets murdered and his case goes in the cold file.
Do you think you would feel sorry for people then? For evil people? Need to forgive them? WHEN they get the lethal dose, and the family's there THAT'S when they will probably forgive them.


I'm thankful I don't have anyone to forgive at this time.

Later...
The Gator. :D

I'm not saying that people don't deserve to be punished but from a personal point of view I don't think you can hold on to the pain, etc and truly begin to heal if you don't forgive. I think you can start to heal, but to be healed, I believe forgiveness may play a part. I don't think you can forgive when someone else wants you to, but you do it on your own time.

I believe that you must answer for what you have done on earth and in the afterlife. We all make choices and we have to live with the consequences. When we have to answer to God for them, He will decide whether He forgives us. This takes me to the multiple degrees of heaven that I believe in which is another topic.

I guess I believe that it is healthy for our spirit to forgive the deserving. If someone is going to continue to hurt you, you are right, they don't deserve your forgiveness. I think though if through our healing we come to the point we can forgive then we should.

If I were to continue to hurt someone I would not be worthy of forgiveness until my actions had changed and I was sincere in my heart.

Starman, I will have to read a little more into your link.

I also find it self-contradictory that some who are in favor of unconditional forgiveness for everyone regardless of the offense are the very ones who would protest if all the unrepentant child molestors, rapists, ax murderers, habitual thieves, and so on were unconditionally forgiven and suddenly released on society because they are forgiven. After all, forgiveness does not imprison, It forgets and starts anew doesn't it?

No, it doesn't, at least not the version I am claiming to practice. I hope I can explain this since I am quite unaccustomed to talking in detail to others about this. :o

This is why I was so careful to separate forgiveness from trust in my first post here. I have found a kind of forgiveness that releases me while having nothing at all to do with the other end.

By being separate like that, it is possible to forgive those that you claim don't "deserve" it. Here is how I do it: the action may be wrong, but I am not sure the person is. I am very much of the camp "hate the sin but love the sinner". I view it as they are making a terrible mistake. A mistake they don't know they are making or so far refuse to acknowlege. A mistake they are willing to make again and again, even. But none the less, a mistake. I do know what mistakes are like.

They are sick and seem trapped in a sickness I confess I don't fully understand even with the incredible front row seat I have had. There are a great number of books written about this and the best one, I think, is People of the Lie, by M. Scott Peck, a very religious man in his own right.

Most importantly I don't know what happens when they meet with God. Maybe they repent in a flash of understanding and remorse so huge it would shock me. Maybe not. I do know what repenting and remorse are like. But I clearly won't be privy to that. So I don't know what is truly in their hearts and in not knowing, I realised I needed to default to the side of forgiveness, just in case. I stay out of the judgement of "deserve" or not as it pertains to the whole person. Not my job!

But that doesn't stop me from having thoughts about whether an action is wrong or not, not in the slightest. In fact, I have lots of opinions about which actions may be right or wrong (as you have probably noticed LOL) :D Nor does it stop me from deciding if someone is trustworthy or not either, by the evidence of those actions. That is my job! To take care of me and not be exposed to harm.

So please don't count me among those who would let slide anything destructive or sanction releasing dangerous people. I am 100% for personal accountiblity for every single thing each of us does. I would have consequences match the crime but it would really be more like conditions matching the sickness. And that would call for prison too.

It may seem odd that forgiveness is needed for someone who actions were so wrong it sent them to prison, but I would ask you this, if not for them, then for who? The one who forgives. Anything less and I think you are attempting to play God.

PS - I have compiled these ideas from a great many books, some of which are religious texts. Sorry this is so long but its hard to explain shortened. :o

Now you can see why I was so interested in some of your ideas, Starman - it is a great discussion that I hope you are enjoying as much as I am.

VS -

When I read that I think of an example. I think of a person in a family who is a heroin addict. You love them dearly but they rob from you and you have to forgive them because they are so far gone. They only think about their next high, and you have to watch them destroy their life. Does that qualify for the type of forgiveness you are talking about?





http://www.geocities.com/aethalffxi/musik21.gifhttp://www.geocities.com/aethalffxi/1.gif

That's fine. I think. Oh well, blonde moment :)

VS-When I read that I think of an example. I think of a person in a family who is a heroin addict. You love them dearly but they rob from you and you have to forgive them b/c they are so far gone. They only think about their next high, and you have to watch them destroy their life. Does that qualify for the type of forgiveness you are talking about?

Thank you for the permission Pumpkin...

Of course you love them, but you don't forgive them because they are "so far gone". You forgive them because they are making a mistake, they are caught in a sickness called addiction and you need the release. And you don't know how it will turn out. But in the meantime, yes all they think about is their next fix. It is what addicts do... until they hit bottom and seek help. I know about this because I work in the recovery profession. That is the profession for which I traded in my graphic design career a decade ago.

Now, speaking of "so far gone" I would like you to know that I believe as long as they are alive, there is hope it will turn out differently. But again meanwhile you need to protect yourself against them since an active addict is capable of great harm. Sounds like you know that part already so I am relieved you do. It is tough loving someone you can't trust, I know. :(

You do not have to "watch" either, especially if its in any way pulling you down to some unsafe place emotionally. You can turn them over to the care of God and keep a spiritually safe distance, for your sake. And talk about the pain with friends who understand. If you think you don't have any friends like that specifically, well then know that I am one here and there are undoubtedly others too! More would be found at your local Al-Anon, if your area has that. I hope this helps. (hug)

I am really glad you shared that and you are not alone :)

No, it doesn't, at least not the version I am claiming to practice. I hope I can explain this since I am quite unaccustomed to talking in detail to others about this. :o

This is why I was so careful to separate forgiveness from trust in my first post here. I have found a kind of forgiveness that releases me while having nothing at all to do with the other end.

By being separate like that, it is possible to forgive those that you claim don't "deserve" it.

I only said that God doesn't always forgive and am being understood as saying that we should not forgive and that we should set ourselves up as judges. Well, I agree with you that only God determines our destiny because he alone can read the heart. So the scripture I cited was meant only to support the fact that God doesn't always forgive. The other conclusions are just based on a misunderstanding of what my purpose was.


BTW
Armageddon proves that God doesn't always forgive.

I agree with Valinors in that even when we forgive it may be essential for us to "protect" ourselves.

I'd like to add to what VS and pumpkin were saying. I think you must know something is a sin for you to be held accountable. There are many examples of parents passing on their perverted thoughts of racism and prejudices. Humans for the most part only know what they are taught. Most of the rest is pure instinct. If one does not know whether by ignorance, mental inabilities, addictions, etc then I'm not sure they will be held accountable. This is why I believe God will be the judge. Only He knows for sure anyone's knowledge and mental state. Only He can judge.

I don't think that by us forgiving we are being judges. I think judging means deciding guilt and punishment. I believe for the most part we can tell if we have been wrong or done wrong. We do not get to hand out the punishments personally. Maybe it does fall to a group of peers and maybe that is wrong, but so is chaos which would occur if we did nothing to keep criminals at bay.

Then there is the destruction of the people because of the flood. Were they not warned? Are we not warned about Armageddon? We have to take responsibility. We are not perfect, but good people, and good people do get hurt.

Sorry, I think I veered a little off course in that last post.

As I understood the original question, to forgive, from the viewpoint of being personal is the first step in a process to heal self, ridding the soul of hatred and anger to bring about peace and understanding. I am not qualified to quote scripture so I can't speak on forgiving people in jails or institutions but those who cross my path and do harm to my sphere of life I can address the forgiving IF I CHOOSE to. That doesn't mean I condone what I feel is bad behavior or welcome you into my world after you've done me no good. It does mean I will not carry the poison your actions have brought to my world and trust me just me now, I NEVER,EVER, forget!:cool: ;)

One last thing I have been mulling over concerning this topic is this: I have an image of the now deceased Pope visiting the man in prison who attempted to assassinate him. From what was reported, the Pope was there because he was concerned for the man's spiritual well being. Hit me as an incredibly forgiving action. And the look on the Pope's face gazing at the man, it was the face of love. WOW

But he rode in the bulletproof Pope-mobile thereafter, too.

Sometimes I think it's up to God to forgive certain injustices. What happens when (God forbid) your brother gets murdered and his case goes in the cold file.
Do you think you would feel sorry for people then? for evil people? Need to forgive them? WHEN they get the lethal dose, and the family's there THAT'S when they will probably forgive them.


I'm thankful I don't have anyone to forgive at this time.

Later...
The Gator. :D


I know exactly what you are trying to convey 31pumpkin.
I think that the confusion is based isolating a scripture without letting the other parts shed some light on it. For example the scripture where we are told to forgive as he forgives us. The relevant question here is how does he forgive us? If we don't know how, then the scripture might be misunderstood and generalities about God's character drawn from it. The way to avoid doing this is to read the rest of the scriptures. When we do so, then we find that God's forgiveness is ultimately based on our acceptance of his laws and regulations and the ransom sacrifice he provided for our sins. We are repeatedly told that if we reject these, then we will lose out on life.

God is not vague on this point. We are clearly reminded that his patience will come to an end with evildoers and that when it does only the righteous will benefit from his forgiveness while the wicked will be objects of his anger. We cannot ignore this if we claim to believe the whole Bible.

Psalm 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth,And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:10-12
But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

Isaiah 11:3-5
Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

About forgiveness of others:
Now, let's say that we are present when God passes judgment.
We see him condemn someone to be destroyed because of unrepentance
And rejection of the ransom sacrifice. Let's say that we feel sorry for that person and begin arguing with God that he should be allowed to live. In short, that he should be forgiven despite his rebelliousness. If we did so, then it would be a sin.

2 Peter 3:5-7 (New King James Version)

5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


BTW
King Saul spared the king of the Amalekites and lost God's favor because of it.

Pumpkin: I assumed (based on your post #35) that this really was your family member we were talking about. I apologise for my error. Please consider all that I said in post #37 as hypothetical and not actual.



Aqua: To demonstrate how I eliminated any concern about whether they knew it was a sin or not, this is how it reasoned out to me:

#1 If they didn't know, then they deserved forgiveness

#2 If they did know and did it anyway, then I consider that insanity (what sane person would choose knowing all that came with it?) and since insanity is really a sickness to me, then they deserved forgiveness since they didn't know what they were doing. Back to #1

So it boils down to what is insanity and do we deal with it as an illness or a crime or a sin?

(Psssst if we keep this up we may have to move this thread to the Health section LOL ) :rolleyes:

VS - yes my #35 post was a hypothetical.

But I can't really grasp what or who you are talking about in #2 of your previous post. I don't think someone(s) have to be insane to knowingly keep doing wrong.
I think they might be sinners, but not necessarily insane. Too easy of an excuse. And insanity(if not treated) usually climaxes at some point and leaves a dreaded trail to all involved.

Aqua@home - When you mentioned in your post about an example like parents not knowing or knowing, and passing on their perverted or abusive actions to their children. Well, here I see is where God steps in. The parents and children while indulging in behavior that is contradictory to God's word, whether they are informed or not spiritually, then during this time they will have unfavorable consequences IN THIS LIFE NOW. Only God knows who are His. At some point, whether the child or parent or both,come into repentance;(could be in jail - OR maybe NEVER) That's going to be up to God to decide. Only He knows their hearts and minds and whether they are His or not.

Talaniman, I agree with you 100%. You have said some very good things.

Starman you said "...God's forgiveness is ultimately based on our acceptance of his laws and regulations and the ransom sacrifice he provided for our sins. We are repeatedly told that if we reject these, then we will lose out on life." And think that this is wonderful. If we believe this as our faith and we accept His laws, regulations and everything else to go along with this faith then ultimately the choice is up to us. We know the consequences. I think that's partially what you are saying?

Valinors I understand your point of view. I'm not sure there are only two reasons people would continue to sin as we are not perfect and we will all continue to so all we can do is continue and do our best. With that being said, I think if that's how you differentiate then that is great. I guess I don't really know how I do. I think sometimes it may be harder because I take my relationship into consideration. I expect far more from the people that I know and surround myself with than someone I don't know at all.

Pumpkin, I agree that God has a great responsibility to those who don't know Him or know His true word. I know He knows everyone's heart and mind and I am counting on Him to be the judge. This is exactly why I was saying that forgiveness is only needed by the wrong-doer when they are aware they have done something wrong.

**I believe though forgiveness benefits those forgiving versus those that need to be forgiven. My thoughts are evolving though. If it wasn't important to be forgiven then why would groups like AA believe receiving forgiveness is a large part of recovery? Anyone?

**I believe though forgiveness benefits those forgiving versus those that need to be forgiven. My thoughts are evolving though. If it wasn't important to be forgiven then why would groups like AA believe receiving forgiveness is a large part of recovery? Anyone?


May I suggest that concerning AA and the 12 steps, it is very much not forgiveness that is sought?

Several of the steps deal in the alcoholic making amends to those they harmed. I can tell you from having taken the steps that making amends is not the same as seeking or gaining forgiveness, not at all. It is specifically taught in AA that amends is about "cleaning up your side of the street" with a great big never-you-mind if the amends is accepted or not (meaning you do it anyway whether the person you made the amends to forgives you or not).

The way I work these two, forgiveness is as separated from amends or apology as making amends is from receiving forgiveness. Forgiveness is meant to release the one harmed, amends is meant to release the one who harmed. Easily confused but very different and NOT dependent on each other unless, of course, you want to play some seriously destructive head games like people do in dysfunctional families? :eek:

That way no one is control of you and your guilt. Nor should they be. Again, its between you and your creator then. A really nice by-product of completing the steps is that we discover that we do it to ourselves ALSO whenever we do it to other people. It made me a whole lot more careful with you all, which is a good thing, a very good thing. :)

And think that this is wonderful. If we believe this as our faith and we accept His laws, regulations and everything else to go along with this faith then ultimately the choice is up to us. We know the consequences. I think that's partially what you are saying?

Well Aqua, that another way of stating it. My main point is that God doesn't always forgive and that we don't have to feel guilty for agreeing with God that some people are not deserving of forgiveness. This doesn't mean that I am saying that we should be unforgiving of others. Only that we shouldn't think of God as being a God who always forgives everything from everyone with no end in site to his patience.

VS -
I found your post regarding the 12 steps another way of looking at forgiveness/amends.

I'm glad that you have found a therapeutic way to forgive yourself and move on.

Many people have addictions and personal problems that they have (praise God) been freed from, some behaviors hurt others more than others. But many people's personalities have had some negative effect on others.

I think people learn as they go along, and I think we all have something to feel guilty about if we keep "crying over spilt milk". We really need to forget those sins as God promises that He does.

Repenting like you do, make 'amends" and move on. It makes sense to me.

We all (maybe if in subtler ways) have not been angels...

Our God is a God of second chances for all who call on Him.


OUR GOD IS A GOD OF SECOND CHANCES... remember that from Vege-Tales Movie? Jonah and the Whale? :)

VS -

Our God is a God of second chances for all who call on Him.


OUR GOD IS A GOD OF SECOND CHANCES.....remember that from Vege-Tales Movie? Jonah and the Whale? :)


I agree 31pumpkin.
There has to be a willingness, a sincere desire to do his will.
The difficulty in accepting that God requires this is that to some it seems to mean that God is cruel in ultimately not forgiving the unrepentant and willfully rebellious. However, getting rid of the troublemakers in order for there to be peace on earth is not cruelty, it is an act of love toward those who are willing to repent and be productive members of a righteous society.

BTW
That's the reason why the paramount troublemaker, Satan must be gotten out of the way before peace on earth becomes a reality.


1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

I know what I believe forgiveness to be, but what do you believe it is?

How do you forgive and is it possible to forget?

If you have any answer or input to any of these questions, I would really appreciate it.:)


Forgiveness is when you cancel the debt created by the offence and treat the person who has offended you as if there had been no offence.

Forgetting is another matter because it has to do with memory and not with will. To overcome the effects of an enduring memory of an offence, it is necessary to forgive and to behave as if one had forgotten. When Jehovah says he will forget sin, he means that he will no longer hold the individual accountable for it.

Isaiah 43:25

I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

It is not likely that his memory will be expunged from the mind of Jehovah, but it is reasonable to consider that he will mark the accoung "Paid in full." That is something that we can do, and it is therefore an act of forgetting.

Hebrews 8:12

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

It is a mercy that Christians are expected to emulate if they have any hope to expect mercy for their own shortcomings at judgement. The disciples of Jesus baptised people for a remission of their sins, which was effective when they entered the waters of baptism. Besides being the rite of entry into the Christian church, baptism is also the witness on the part of God that man's sins are remitted, pardoned, and forgiven, and that in the eyes of God he is clean again, born again, ready to begin a new spiritual life and his sins will not be held against him again as long as he refrains from sinning. Thus, baptism means forgiveness of past sins on condition of repentance.

Baptism also means forgiveness of future sins on condition of repentance. This point needs clarification. There is no perfection in human nature, and though a man has corrected mistakes of the past and is committed in faith to Christ, he is bound to err and fail in the future. Repentance, like learning, is a constant need of the believer, therefore, baptism is both retroactive and operative in relation to the future, and is the divine assurance that the earnest, repentant disciple of Christ will be forgiven the sins which he will no doubt commit in his progress toward perfection in Jesus Christ.

The promise of forgiveness, both in relationship to the past and the future, must not be taken as license to sin. Moral failure brings with it sorrow and suffering for ourselves and for others. And though, through repentance and baptism, we attain a remission of sins, we will have already suffered considerable loss and have done harm to others. Foolish is the man who toys with sin through confidence in forgiveness. Such an attitude ignores the law of justice in his own life and the principle of mercy toward others, and may make it much more difficult to gain mercy for himself. By dallying with temptation and sin, a man may readily succumb to them and then find repentance beyond his power.

A question often asked is: Though we have been forgiven of our sins, will we not have to pay the full price of our sins—either here or in the hereafter?

It is true that no one can do wrong without suffering a loss, and the extension of forgiveness by God does not mean that no damage has been done. In our wrongdoing we suffer pain and forgo all the rich experience and development which would have come had we been spending our strength in worthwhile pursuits. Even the repentant will have suffered certain losses through his wrongdoing. There is no question about that. His sinful deeds in the past, with their effect on himself and others, are not undone by repentance and forgiveness. But this does not mean that a person must pay the full price of justice for his sins.

There is an element of grace in forgiveness. If a person had to pay the uttermost farthing for his wrongdoing, or, in other words, if justice alone prevailed, then forgiveness would have no meaning. Neither would love or mercy have place or meaning. Forgiveness implies that there is something to forgive, some unfulfilled obligation that is pardoned and erased. To illustrate:

A father had a son to whom he lent $5,000 at a low rate of interest. The son signed a note—a promise to pay. He began to repay the note faithfully; then misfortune overtook him. His wife's ill health and his own failure in a business venture ruined him financially. His intentions were good. He tried honestly to fulfill his obligation to his father. Time and again, the son sacrificed his own comfort to make a small payment to his father.One day the father said to his son, "My boy, despite your misfortune and the prolonged and expensive illness of your wife, you have made every effort to repay me the loan. I am going to forgive you the rest of the note. Here it is, torn to bits."

The father was happy to forgive his son because the latter had done his part as well as he could. The father truly forgave because there was something to forgive. Most of the original loan had not been paid. It was to be cancelled.

Had the father said, "Son, I forgive you the loan, but you must still pay it back with interest," what meaning would forgiveness have?Forgiveness comes immediately with full repentance. There is no concept of purgatory in our theology—no place after death where men will be punished to satisfy divine justice for sins committed in the flesh of which man has repented fully. The repentant sinner pays a price for his wrongdoing; he knows sorrow and remorse and the digression or delay his wrongdoing has brought into his life. He can know also, however, that God's interest is in helping him attain unto godlike living, not in punishing him for the sake of justice, revenge, or glory. Therefore, to the repentant sinner the Lord will not add his own punishment to that which is the natural consequence of sin.

Forgiveness is complete and final if our repentance is also complete and permanent. God has no interest in punishment for punishment's sake. His greater interest is in the sinner, not the sin. As a wise minister said, "A sinner is greater than all his sins."

Even though it is more difficult for we humans to forgive on the scale that God forgives, and to forget on the scale that he forgets, that should be the target towards which we continually strive. We must always do the best we can to follow his example, recognising that the reconciliation effected through Christ's atonement is incomplete unless we take it further than healing the rift between God and man, and make it available from us to all those who have offended us, and become wholly reconciled to them. Where we cannot remove the memory of what they have done towards us, we can behave as if it had not been. Often, that will be the 'forgetfulness' in the equation. Rev. Professor Haddon Wilmer said that "Forgiving is not forgetting: it is remembering but acting differently."



M:)RGANITE

I believe forgiveness is letting go of any hostility, anger or bad feelings towards another person. One has to let go of these feelings for yourself, not necessarily for the other person or persons. When you harbor these feelings they bother you more than anyone else. In order to keep ourselves in a peaceful place you can not have those feelings. Don't we all want to be at peace with ourselves. Once you truly forgive in your heart the forgetfullness will follow. That does not mean that you will set yourself up for anything like that to happen again. Choose to look at it as a lesson in life that will make you grow and become a wiser soul. I believe we are all here to learn lessons so we can get on to a higher level of life. Hanging onto that anger or bad feeling only hurts you. We do not want to hurt ourselves. Good luck

Most of the people I have forgiven in my life are actually not the least bit repentant. Either they just see themselves as flat out having done no wrong, despite the fact that it cost them a relationship, or a closeness, or some other tangible aspect like trust or they see their offending action as justified in some sort of "holier than thou" or "payback is hell" angle. I eventually see them as just making a mistake they haven't figured out yet and heaven knows, I have made enough of those myself.

The first is a kind of denial or disconnect on their part that I don't feel obligated to address (after the first dozen times you figure out its pointless) and that latter just makes me cross the street when I see them coming.

So if I had to rely on apologies or amends before I could forgive, YIKES... I would be up that proverbial creek. I like to think of forgiveness as cleaning out my spiritual dustbin. And my amends as cleaning my side of the spiritual street. Both feel good (although it takes a bit of trudging in the amends part sometimes to get to where it feels good?). Both are healing for me and the world at large.

There is the spiritual side of forgiveness, which is my view. There is the emotional side also. When you are harboring any negative feelings toward someone you are giving them power over you. One may not realize how much energy is spent harboring negative emotions towards someone. You feel like if you let go and forgive you are letting them off the hook. That is not true. They will always be responsible for their actions, just we are for ours. As for forgetting, who wants to remember them? If you have God in your heart it is filled with love and it will spill over to others.

I think forgetting is sometimes improperly used to suggest that is a way to measure complete forgiveness. The compete measure of forgiveness is that one no longer carries any hurt or anger about it.

I think Morganite made an excellent point and I would have quoted him here except its woven all through his post instead. The forgetting part comes IF and WHEN a complete amends is made along with the forgiveness. The combination of BOTH resets it all back to where no transgression was made.

So therefore forgiveness without an amends means that it is prudent not to forget. It means that although I have forgiven someone for an incident, I don't set the stage for them to create another one just like it. That would be foolish on my part and actually unkind. It is possible to still remember without it carrying any emotional weight. It comes off more like, "Oh yeah, that's who I am dealing with, a person who makes mistakes like that". And then you act accordingly.

Remembering isn't carrying a grudge; its knowing who you are dealing with and acting on that awareness.

When I speak of forgetting along with forgiving, I suppose I am saying I am forgetting the issue. We always remember the lesson we learned that went along with the incident. You could spend a lifetime waiting for an amends to happen and sometimes it just "ain't gonna". You may still have to deal with this person because of work or family or friends. Circumstances prevent you from avoiding them all together. Letting go of the issue, the anger, the hurt, does not mean you are letting go of the lesson. Even if amends were made, you remember the lesson.

I believe the universe settles everything in due time. It may take a while, but the old saying "what goes around comes around" is very true. I often find myself actually wishing someone would stop their wrong doing because I do not want them to have to go through what they are going to inevitably go through down the road.

There was a difficult time in my life where I was so hurt and dissapointed and confused as how to deal with a situation. I was in my early 20's and wanted it resolved and I wanted acknowledgment that I was right. It filled a good part of my time and energy. An incident happened and my heart filled with sorrow for this person and it was an unreal feeling how all of the anger and hurt left me. It was a physical and emotional feeling. That night I cried and thanked God for whatever happened to me at that time. I have not been able to harbour those feelings again. It was like a cleansing of sorts. As life goes on, I still learn lessons and understand that is what other people are doing also. I may not be around to see them pay for their actions, I am sure they will as I have mine.

Just to look at the other side of the coin-In my past I have caused others hurt through no fault of their own and had to ask for forgiveness as I was truly sorry for what I had put them through. While I was forgiven I'm sure that they didn't forget what I had done. I still felt so bad I tried to make amends, which worked for some but only enraged others. In being willing to set things right it is really not your choice as how this can be done and some people really want nothing to do with you anymore so a wise man counseled me to ask God to forgive me and then forgive myself. Something's you cannot change or control, but you must at least be willing to make things right so beating yourself up is not productive to healing self. I have not been perfect, but in the effort of turning things around I did find a certain peace with myself that allows me to move forward and try to be better with relationships and life. I have NOT forgotten my past though as I try not to repeat my mistakes.:cool: ;)

I find that it's easier to forgive a transgression if I am reasonably sure it was not personal or intentional.
Forget? Naw!

Yes, when things are personal or intentional it is much harder to forgive.

I think it is a struggle that we must try to perfect for all parties involved.

If you can't forgive it isn't fair to expect forgiveness either.

I think forgiveness humbles us both in asking for forgiveness and offering it
.