Last night, I suddenly started to mull over how little we actually know about the notion of what the word GOD implies or should mean.

We are no question influenced by the mythological references to gods and goddesses as persons with human feelings and emotions and, more than all, by the figure of Jesus Christ, which we may tend to visualize more like a man who died in the Cross to redeem us, than as GOD Himself.

So I said to myself. Let us imagine the most absolute void and emptiness some 15 billion years ago, which is not yesterday! Then, all of a sudden, a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the Universe, and gradually, galaxies started to develop, materialize and come into being to reach the 500 billion where, previously, there was NOTHING. Each galaxy including, in turn, billions of stars system, planets, and so one and so forth…

But, what about the size of this Universe, 15 billion years later?

The nearest star to Earth (Proxima Centauri) is supposed to be at 4.24 light years away, or some 25 trillion miles!! But, our Earth is not in one end of this Universe, but more or less in the middle of what we know. In addition, we can see stars and galaxies everywhere. Nobody knows how far away the farthest star is. However, some scholars claim the known Universe stretches some 94 BILLION light years across.

Do we really assume what this means?

In the meantime, some 4,5 billion years ago our Earth and the other planets in our Solar System formed out of disk-shaped mass of dust and gas left over from the formation of our Sun. And little by little, the outer layer of our small and insignificant planet cooled to form a solid crust when water began accumulating in the atmosphere, to gradually become a planet that can sustain life!

And life it has indeed sustained. From the primitive sea algae (perhaps 1 billion years old) to modern man. 230 million years ago we already have evidence of some species of dinosaurs. And between 1994 and 1995, some paleontologists, investigating the archeological site of Atapuerca (in central Spain) found over 80 bone fragments from five or six hominids dating to between 850.000 to 780.000 years ago.

Now then, what do all these scientifically proven facts demonstrate?

That GOD is really Amazing!

For we have to imagine the incredible thought that there MUST BE a supernatural being so powerful as to create all this universe we now know and everything else we still DON’T KNOW. And trying to imagine GOD as creator of ALL this is really a most frightening thought, indeed.

"The heavens declare the glory of GOD; and the firmament proclaims its builder’s craft. One day to the next conveys that message; one night to the next imparts that knowledge. There is no word or sound; no voice is heard. Yet, their report goes forth through all the earth, their message to the ends of the world. God has pitched there a tent for the sun” (Psalm 19:1-5).

Perhaps we should start thinking of how futile our discussions are in front of the awe inspired by GOD, who has created everything that surround us, and who 15 BILLION years ago decided to let his divine blow explode into the so called Big Bang!!

Thoughts on the above will be appreciated.

Couldn't we just simplify things by saying
The universe is amazing.

I mean every fact you had in your post was about the universe not god. Maybe there are other universes that aren't so great. I mean if want to say god created the universe fine but how do we know that he hasn't been working on it for a really long time. I'm sure with enough time I could create a universe too and maybe my universe would be better than this one wouldn't really make god amazing would it. I would say that would make him okay at best since I created a better universe.

You get started on that universe, michealb... let me know how it goes. If you need more time, maybe you could live to be 1,000,000,000 years old and let's see how your decrepit body does attempting to finish and maintain that universe. Also, I don't know how long it will take you to figure out the whole "life from no life" thing, but once you do, let me know... always wondered about that. And after that, when you get around to giving free will to whatever life you do create, let me know how much more of an "amazing" job they do, as opposed to us.. you know, the "okay at best" crowd. Good luck on that. :D

Pretty nice post, gromitt82. Yes, God is pretty amazing. So is the Universe. So are you and you know what? So am I! :D

If you remove time (a human illusion) from the realization, if you assume that all those particles are part of God, that means that we are amazing. Not that we are "holier" or better than one another, it means that we always have been. We were created in the image of God, therefore we are exactly like God. So, amazing compared to something (as in good compared to evil,) or amazing period?

I don't believe there is right and wrong, good and evil. We do not end in death. If this is true, what does matter? What are we doing here?

I have just as much proof that I did those things as to god did them. Isn't it likely that the universe has a natural answer just as every question has had. Since we began asking questions.

Absolutely! Everything does have a natural answer. But I think that you do not agree that God is natural.

Of course, I am sure our definitions of "God" are not quite in-line, as well.

And YOU may have just as much proof that you created the universe as you do that God did... but I have much MORE proof that says you didn't than I do God.

I have just as much proof that I did those things as to god did them. Isn't it likely that the universe has a natural answer just as every question has had. Since we began asking questions.

Can you prove that the universe just appeared from no where by accident? There is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more evidence for intelligent design than there is for the bogus claim that my brain, eyes, heart, immune system etc. just appeared from nothing by accident. It take more faith to believe that bolony.. lol

Your organs didn't appear by accident. They appeared because of selective pressures from the environment selected them over other less fit designs. If you take any random system and apply selective pressure you will get order that however doesn't mean god created that order.

Saying the universe is an accident is like saying it rains by accident. There are forces at work that cause rain just as there are forces at work that cause a universe to form. You saying that just because we don't know something god did it is very limiting of you.

Last night, I suddenly started to mull over how little we actually know about the notion of what the word GOD implies or should mean.
Yes, how true ! How little they know, how much they assume !

Many people even BELIEVE such an entity exists...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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.

Growmitt82,
Yes I am a firm believer in Intelligent design of all that is seen and unseen,
That is all the is in existence for God is existence itself having created everything but Himself.
Without God I'm certain that there would be nothing.
God, the infinite, eternal being designed original creation to become what we witness to be the universe as it is now.
That I firmly believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Couldn't we just simplify things by saying
The universe is amazing.

I mean every fact you had in your post was about the universe not god. Maybe there are other universes that aren't so great. I mean if want to say god created the universe fine but how do we know that he hasn't been working on it for a really long time. I'm sure with enough time I could create a universe too and maybe my universe would be better than this one wouldn't really make god amazing would it. I would say that would make him okay at best since I created a better universe.

With all due respect, to your remarks I am sorry to disagree with you. My post IS NOT about the universe, but about GOD, for GOD is the creator of the universe and everything therein.

Some scholars DO say there are other parallel universes. However, if this is true it will just add to the wonders GOD created.

Your assert GOD has been working on creating the world “for a really long time” reveals a rather unique ability to read figures. I think I said 15 BILLION years ago. This is rather a long time, as far as I’m concerned. Could you please let me know what “a long time” is for you?

It is also an amazing proof of sense of humor to claim that you “with enough time you could create a universe too”.

Mind you, I appreciate sense of humor as a basic medicine for a healthy life. Still, I think you have carried it a bit too far!

How would you manage even to start it?

I do not think that not even David Copperfield would dare to make the most out of such a thought!

As I said at the beginning, I respect your opinion as much as I value your right to deliver it.

However, I would encourage your supplying us with some really “serious” views on the subject!!

If you remove time (a human illusion) from the realization, if you assume that all those particles are part of God, that means that we are amazing. Not that we are "holier" or better than one another, it means that we always have been. We were created in the image of God, therefore we are exactly like God. So, amazing compared to something (as in good compared to evil,) or amazing period?

I don't believe there is right and wrong, good and evil. We do not end in death. If this is true, what does matter? What are we doing here?

Time may be a human illusion but, as Human Beings, we can hardly remove it. I am sorry to dissent from your theory “that all those particles are part of GOD”.

If those particles you refer to are ALL the components of our universe they are not part of GOD; they simply are GOD’s wonderful toil, although I hate to use man’s qualifying adjectives to try to explain GOD’s Creation.

We are indeed “amazing” insofar we are the “amazing” work of GOD.

The Genesis indeed mentions that we were created in the image of GOD. This may be interpreted in several ways EXCEPT in that we are exactly like GOD. We could say that GOD is Spirit. Therefore, we could add that we are also spirits.

Alternatively, we may argue that one must be in a relationship with GOD in order to possess the ‘image’ of GOD. Theologians like Karl Barth and Emil Brunner argue” that it is our ability to hold to relationships that make us like GOD. Unlike animals that cannot hold relationships in the same way we can, it is this characteristic that makes us ‘in GOD’s image’.”

Pretending that we are “exactly” like GOD is, if you allow me to say, the acme of arrogance!

There is right and there is wrong, good and evil! No need to believe it. They are simply here!

Loving your mother is right. Killing her is wrong! Helping those who are in need is good; killing six million people in gas chambers is evil! Could you dispute that?

Life does not end in death. TRUE!! And it matters, because depending upon our behavior down here, our continuing life may be of eternal glory and luminosity or of eternal gloom and obscurity.

I have just as much proof that I did those things as to god did them. Isn't it likely that the universe has a natural answer just as every question has had. Since we began asking questions.

Sorry to say, you go on with your unusual "sense of humor".

When you look up at the Firmament you can see the evidence of Creation! How can you prove YOU have done anything of sorts? It is obvious that the Universe was created and follows some natural/physical Laws. I do not think anybosy may dispute that, at this stage.
The point, therefore, is not that. The point is: Who created the Laws the Universe follow? Who created the Laws that are to be found in the origin of Life on Earth?

An the answer is just as simple: GOD did!!

Your organs didn't appear by accident. They appeared because of selective pressures from the enviroment selected them over other less fit designs. If you take any random system and apply selective pressure you will get order that however doesn't mean god created that order.

Saying the universe is an accident is like saying it rains by accident. There are forces at work that cause rain just as there are forces at work that cause a universe to form. You saying that just because we don't know something god did it is very limiting of you.

Right you are, in my opinion, for the first time. There are forces at work that causes a universe to form. You forgot, however, to mention where is the origin of these forces, or who impulsed them to act as they do? The asnwer, of course, is GOD did!!

Yes, how true ! How little they know, how much they assume !

Many people even BELIEVE such an entity exists ....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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.

Should we understand by that last remark that you DON'T?

Any level of sufficiantly advanced technology appears to be magic to those that don't have it.
So just because you don't understand how it might be possible to create a universe doesn't mean it's impossible it just means you don't know how.
You talk about god having no end and no beginning wouldn't it make sense that the non intelligent forces that by the by product of their existence created the universe could have always been. Especially since you know nothing about those forces.

If killing someone reunites them with God, then death is not a negative. Believing that there is punishment and hell is a waste, to me. If death is not a negative, there is no right and wrong except as we decide to assign those qualities to actions and thoughts..

An omnipotent creator can not create less than all there is. Our relationships can reflect either love or fear, the choice is ours. Arrogance lies in the assumption that one human is holier than another, that one opinion is "better" or "more wrong" than another.

It is not arrogance that prompts us to search for meaning. But it is sad that we divide and conquer based on the thought that one way is better. Our souls are on the same path; our thoughts divide us.

Neither one of us is "going to hell." We are supremely, endlessly forgivable. If you choose not to believe that, that's okay with me. May my beliefs be okay with you.

If killing someone reunites them with God, then death is not a negative.

That's what scares me about religious people. You don't believe you can be wrong and death can be a good thing.

It's this type of attitude that leads to people blowing themselves up because they believe they will be rewarded for it.

gromitt82,
I agree with you.
Everything that exists has a beginning.
Who or what caused that beginning?
It had to be something that has nor end or beginning to get the job done.
The mathematical odds are that the universe and even ourselves could not have come into being by accident.
Quantum mechanics shows that something very much supreme is at work, so many in that field are now saying.
One of the best in that field has now become a priest in the Church of England.
I read his book on that and why he decided to become a God fearing and loving priest.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Who or what caused that beginning?
You don't know and I can't tell you. So why do you fill it in with god? Why not just answer honestly and say "I don't know, lets look for an answer." instead of god did it no further research needed. You do all of humanity a disservice when you spread false answers.

Also mathematical odds are meaning less when you don't know how any of the varibles. You have no idea how many universes exist. You don't know how life forms. You know very little about the formations of galaxies, suns and planets. Until you know that information any discussion about odds are purely speculative.

Yes, how true ! How little they know, how much they assume !
Many people even BELIEVE such an entity exists ....
Should we understand by that last remark that you DON'T?
All I query is if there is any Objective Supported Evidence (OSE) for "God's" existence.
That is not the same as that I do not believe in such a "God" entity.

From your topic it is clear that you BELIEVE that "God" exists.
And in contrast with that
I do not see any Objective Supported Evidence (OSE) for "God's" existence.

:)

.

Everything that exists has a beginning.
Dear Fred : please answer the following questions :

Pnt 1 : If you tell me that "God" not always existed, than Who or What caused the beginning of "God", and Why ?

Pnt 2 : If you tell me that "God" always existed, than your argument itself is false and invalid, as not "everything that exists" had a beginning.
(Or you just proved that "God" does not exist, as he always existed... ) :rolleyes:

As an after-thought one more point additional to any of your answers : If "God" always existed, why ONLY "God"? Why did not many other things always existed?

:)

GOD is not amazing... The lacking and invalid logic here is amazing!

:)

.

I are amazing. And I gots me plenty of OSE ta prove it.

The problem with the "who/what came first" argument is that the mind is trapped in the 4th dimension: time. We cannot perceive anything beyond of that and therefore, efforts are futile.

I are amazing. And I gots me plenty of OSE ta prove it.
Your grammar, spelling, attitude, and lacking support of your claim surely are amazing...

Please show some respect for the religious ideas of others...

:D

.

Is OSE a Religious idea?

:D

Is OSE a Religious idea?
O = Objective
S = Supported
E = Evidence

OSE is not a religious idea. OSE reflects factual proof, something completely missing from religion.


I are amazing. And I gots me plenty of OSE ta prove it.
I still see not any proof for that claim or taking back of that claim...

:rolleyes:

.

michealb,
I KNOW the answer. God created all that is seen and unseen.
I can't prove it scientifically but personally I know it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I KNOW the answer. God created all that is seen and unseen.
I can't prove it scientifically but personally I know it.
You call that "know" but it is no more than what you BELIEVE to be.
Of course you may EXPERIENCE that as knowing...

Have a nice day too, Fred !

John

:)

.

Cred:

What came before the big bang?

What caused it ?

Do you have OSE?

what came before the big bang? What caused it ? Do you have OSE?
Time started with the Big Bang. Time is a dimension. So there is no "before" the Big Bang.

We can not know what was there "before" the Big Bang, as for everything in this universe there is no "before" the Big Bang. How can one know anything of what to all it this universe never existed ?

Of course YOU may BELIEVE that...

Just as in Captain Kirk, Superman, God, and many others...

:)

.

Cred,
CORRECTION...
I KNOW God exists.
He proved that to me.
It is far more than just belief.
Fred

Time started with the Big Bang. Time is a dimension. So there is no "before" the Big Bang.

We can not know what was there "before" the Big Bang, as for everything in this universe there is no "before" the Big Bang. How can one know anything of what to all it this universe never existed ?

.


Where is your OSE for what you state - or is that something that you believe :rolleyes:;)


So there was " nothing "? Before the big bang?
If so, how did "nothing" cause the big bang?
Where is your OSE?

inthebox,
Excellent question.
I look forward to the answer if any.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

... I KNOW God exists. He proved that to me. It is far more than just belief.
Dear Fred : You say you know, but you can not prove that to be so. Therefore I'll accept that as your BELIEF, not as reality.

For you your belief may be or seem your reality. For me and many other billion people it is not reality. For it to become that reality you have to prove it to be so by showing OSE.

Have a nice day, Fred !

:)

.

Time started with the Big Bang. Time is a dimension. So there is no "before" the Big Bang. We can not know what was there "before" the Big Bang, as for everything in this universe there is no "before" the Big Bang. How can one know anything of what to all in this universe never existed ?
Where is your OSE for what you state - or is that something that you believe
Why do you want from me OSE for time being a dimension? Do you agree or diasgree with that?


So there was " nothing "? before the big bang?
I did not state that : I stated that "there is no "before" the Big Bang".
Do you have a reading comprehension problem?


If so, how did "nothing" cause the big bang?
I'll answer that as soon as YOU can OSE prove to me that God always existed.


Where is your OSE?
Indeed : Where is YOUR OSE??

:)

.

...I look forward to the answer if any....
Fred, please do not be silly : you know very well I will answer such questions.

:)

.

Fred, please do not be silly : you know very well I will answer such questions.

:)

.

Of course you don't. You can't.
:D

As I have said before just because you don't know the answer doesn't mean god did it. It just means you don't know. I don't see anything wrong with not knowing something however I do think it is wrong to claim something to be true without some basis for that statement.

Cred,
Why do you not believe what I said.
I said I KNOW God exists.
He proved that to me.
Knowing is a lot more than believing.
There is no way you can prove that I do not Know God exists.
I do not need to prove that I know.
You either accept my word on that or you don't, but please do not try to tell me that I just believe something that I know. That IS unacceptable for it is untrue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

... Knowing is a lot more than believing ...
Precisely ! I agree. Believing is accepting something you have no OSE for.
Knowing (as in factual) is accepting something that is OSE based.

You say that you KNOW that God exixts.
But you do not KNOW that, dear Fred. You BELIEVE that.
And that is the reason why you keep repeating that you know, but keep failing to provide the OSE to prove that what you claim to know is anything more than what you actually BELIEVE!!

From me you may BELIEVE anything you want, and assume that personally as a fact.
But it only becomes a fact as soon as you provide OSE for that.


There is no way you can prove that I do not Know God exists.
Fred, from me you do not have to prove anything.
But till the moment that you prove your CLAIM of what you say to know is more than a wild claim which you BELIEVE to be "true", it has no value as reality at all (other than for you only).

It is not I who needs to prove anything, dear Fred.
I do not claim anything. I ask you to support that what you claim to be factual with OSE.
And as long as you do not do that, all you claim to "know" is what you BELIEVE.

:)

.

Cred,
I'm amazed that you do not understand what I said.
I know that God exist because he prove that to me.
It is a private thing.
He answers my prayers and saved my life.
That proves it to me.
Peace and kindness,
Frted

I'm amazed that you do not understand what I said.
I know that God exist because he prove that to me.
No Fred : you BELIEVE that. If you really KNEW (as in "fact/factual"), you would post about that knowledge...

:)

.

Cred,
Please pay attention.
I DID post about that knowledge.
Apparently you did not read ir or did not understand it.
Again here it is.
The proof God provided my was in answering my prayers and saving my life.
That is all the proof I need.
Fred

... I DID post about that knowledge.
Apparently you did not read ir or did not understand it. Again here it is.
The proof God provided my was in answering my prayers and saving my life.
That is all the proof I need. Fred
Dear Fred : that is no proof. That is some personal confirmation based on what you believe, and how your belief influences your thinking.

Of course as I have said so many times, you may BELIEVE that, but that does not make it reality. If it was reality, you could OSE prove that whatever happened to you could ONLY be caused by "God".
But you can't do that. Because your claims on "God" and "God's" actions are all based on BELIEF and on nothing else.


The proof God provided my was in answering my prayers and saving my life. That is all the proof I need.
That is fine with me too, as from me you may personally believe whatever you prefer.
But it is no proof as I already explained in my previous sentence.

Dear Fred : I do not know why you are so persistent with that "I know".
It seems to show that you find that the general meaning of "TO BELIEVE" is something inferior to your experience, which you call "TO KNOW".
I see that often also with other Christians who use the term "faith" as some more valuable format of "to believe".

Religion is based on BELIEF, Fred. On nothing but BELIEF.
You may - like you do - give it any other name, but it remains just BELIEF !

:rolleyes:

.

Dear Fred : that is no proof. That is some personal confirmation based on what you believe, and how your belief influences your thinking.

Of course as I have said so many times, you may BELIEVE that, but that does not make it reality. If it was reality, you could OSE prove that whatever happened to you could ONLY be caused by "God".
But you can't do that. Because your claims on "God" and "God's" actions are all based on BELIEF and on nothing else.


That is fine with me too, as from me you may personally believe whatever you prefer.
But it is no proof as I already explained in my previous sentence.

Dear Fred : I do not know why you are so persistent with that "I know".
It seems to show that you find that the general meaning of "TO BELIEVE" is something inferior to your experience, which you call "TO KNOW".
I see that often also with other Christians who use the term "faith" as some more valuable format of "to believe".

Religion is based on BELIEF, Fred. On nothing but BELIEF.
You may - like you do - give it any other name, but it remains just BELIEF !

:rolleyes:

.

Dear Fred,
If I were you I would refrain from any more argueing over "BELIEVING" or NOT BELIEVING" with people that, without realizing it, ALSO BELIEVES, although, just the opposite of what billions of people BELIEVE, including you and I. It is totally pointless and a waste of time

Lol, you are still arguing about THAT? Ok, for some people, like me, they 'know' that God exist, even if for others, it's only a belief. That comes from a feeling... so strong that we cannot deny it. Yesm it's like that, it is far more than a simple belief, but a knowledge.

Btw, Cred, christianism does exist, I realised just today why I said that the other day.

gromitt82.
Yes.
I agree.
It is useless to agrue about belief and knowing.
I believe what I believe and I know what I personally know.
Enough said.
Fred

I believe what I beleive and I know what I personally know.
Enough said.
Some people here are amazing too... Though that does not always means a positive view...

:D

.

Cred,
I believe that all people are amazing in some way or another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I second that Fred:)!

Unknown008 ,
Thanks much.
Fred

I second that Fred:)!
Everyone does. Do I "third" that than?? :D

Please tell me, Unknown : is that Mauritius the island in the Indian Ocean, or some other location ?

:)

.

I will give a fourth to that.
I just love 'listening' to you guys (and gals)

lol, you are still arguing about THAT? Ok, for some people, like me, they 'know' that God exist, even if for others, it's only a belief. That comes from a feeling.... so strong that we cannot deny it. Yesm it's like that, it is far more than a simple belief, but a knowledge.

Btw, Cred, christianism does exist, i realised just today why i said that the other day.

I also know that GOD exists. This is exactly why I consider it as sheer waste of time - as far as I am concerned - to argue over what I consider - my privilege - a certitude.
As I'm not prepared to debate whether the earth is spheric or flat I simply refuse to debate whether GOD exists or not.
Therefore I hereby close the subject!

gromitt82,
Yes it is a waste of time and effort to try to tell those who know that God exists that what the know is just a belief.
It is far more than just a belief no matter what others my or may not believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes it is a waste of time and effort to try to tell those who know that God exists that what the know is just a belief. It is far more than just a belief no matter what others my or may not believe.
Dear Fred : if you can't even convince the theists, than spreading "the word" to non-theists will neither go very well !

:rolleyes:

.

Cred,
2 billion people have been convince that the Christian God exists and others are converting every day.
It happens whether you believe it or not.
Fred

Yup, from the few disciple. They did a great job, did they? 2 billion today, and it's still increasing! :rolleyes:

EDIT: missed an 's' in disciple.

Yup, from the few disciple. They did a great job, did they? 2 billion today, and it's still increasing!!:rolleyes:

Yeah, that's very true! :)

Unknown008,
YES!! An it all is because God IS amazing.
Without God there would be no disciples of His or anything else.
God Almighty the creator of all that is seen and unseen.
The maker of existence.
That is what I believe and so does over 2 billion people.
That also is amazing!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

A preacher in my church just talked about that. Saying that christiamism spreads like epidemies, but in the positive way, that there is still work to do for the 4 billion left. Do you think we'll be able to do so quickly, say 10 years? :rolleyes:

Unknown008,
Yes, Jerry, there is a lot of work still to be done.
However it took 2000 years for there to become 2 billion Christians.
I think it would take more than 2000 more years to convert 4 billion more.
And, keep in mind that IF there were 6 billion Christians 2000 years from now because of population growth there would still be billions yet to be converted.
Big job lies ahead of us all.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Yes, I was thinking that if there were more people, there would be more converted! For example, 1 converts 1, then these two convert 2 more, then 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384, etc. So 2 billion becomes 4 billion, and then the rest! Except that that's in theory, assuming no death nor births.

Yes, i was thinking that if there were more people, there would be more converted! For example, 1 converts 1, then these two convert 2 more, then 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384, etc. So 2 billion becomes 4 billion, and then the rest! Except that that's in theory, assuming no death nor births.



As Arcura says we have a big job to do ahead of us. And, possibly, the most important job that would facilitate our task of converting those which still do not believe, would be to finally agree that it is absolutely ridiculous that we Christians, who believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, who died in the Cross for us, are divided into umpteen Churches, each one pretending to be slightly better than the one around the corner!
Or even more than this! When each Christian denomination interprets the Scriptures their own way, and refuses even to listen to others' arguments convinced they are right and the others are almost in schism...!
And don't even think I am saying that we Catholics are not guilty because we form the most numerous group.
Precisely, because of that I think we should humble ourselves a little more and try to walk half of the way towards a global and total ecumenism.
Yes, we ALL have a tough job ahead of us"

gromitt82,
I agree!!
Fred

... 2 billion people have been convince that the Christian God exists and others are converting every day. It happens whether you believe it or not ...
Fred : you know me well enough to understand that from me everyone may believe whatever suits him or her.

But I disagree with your suggested "growing" christianity pattern.
Based on human population growth Christianity is no longer growing.
Many people just get easier on main-stream religion all the time, while others go into extreme formats of religion. At one side aggressive religions and denominations are growing, at the other side Atheism is growing too, even in the US - where a lot of people just say they are Christian to prevent all kind of social problems that could follow from their actual non-religious worldview.
That is of course the consequence of all that christian pressure and presence in the US.

Here is Europe - where we are more open to our worldview position - Atheism is growing steadily, while more and more people openly admit no longer to believe in a god or in gods.

Religion may always remain around, as long as humanity exists. But I do not think it will grow any further. Not even the aggressive religions, denominations, and sects. My guess is that we are now at the highest level ever of religions. From now onwards the influence and effects of religion will further and further water down and decline.


... However it took 2000 years for there to become 2 billion Christians.
I think it would take more than 2000 more years to convert 4 billion more....
If that were so it would mean that christianity by that time would be a sect only - supposing that at that time humanity still exists, and has grown in numbers.

The prognosis is that in one hundred years from now there may be tens of billions of human beings walking on this earth.

A fair and honest forecast may be that most energy resources will by that time be completely depleted, and humanity may by than even have fallen back to pre-historic living standards (and resulting extremely reduced numbers).


... And, keep in mind that IF there were 6 billion Christians 2000 years from now because of population growth there would still be billions yet to be converted....
See above : either some 94 Billion to go (most unlikely) , or just some couple of million still living savages (the remainder of humanity) that are hunting and farming around for their daily food.

Add to that the dreaded global warming effects, and the real forecast is that most life AD 4000 will have become extinct...

Isn't THAT amazing ?

:rolleyes:

.

Cred,
So you believe as I know you do and have know for a long time.
That's OK with me.
It's your choice and of course I have mine.
That does not say that we should not get along with each other.
Your well know my hope and wish for all people is peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred : you know me well enough to understand that from me everyone may believe whatever suits him or her.

But I disagree with your suggested "growing" christianity pattern.
Based on human population growth Christianity is no longer growing.
Many people just get easier on main-stream religion all the time, while others go into extreme formats of religion. At one side aggressive religions and denominations are growing, at the other side Atheism is growing too, even in the US - where a lot of people just say they are Christian to prevent all kind of social problems that could follow from their actual non-religious worldview.
That is of course the consequence of all that christian pressure and presence in the US.

... Isn't THAT amazing ?

:rolleyes:

.


Allow me to just meddle a little in your conversation with our mutual friend Arcura.
Of course, your discrepancy with Arcura’s statement re. the growth of Christianity all over the world is perfectly understandable, especially when we consider that you are an EU resident as I am too.
Since the WWII ended, we have had in the EU a considerable spread of outrageous and fierce materialism that coincided with almost a total fading of moral and ethic values.
As it was to be expected, this drifts brought along a significant growth of agnosticism and atheism, especially among teens and people up to their mid 40s.
But by the same token, after half a century of moral degradation people in the western world seem to be getting tired of all this customs debasing and, following the law of the pendulum, shyly starting to get into the right direction and, curiously enough, beginning with teen agers.
This trend can be perhaps more recognized in the Islam world. The strength of fundamentalist movements amongst young people cannot be ignored.
During my many business trips through the Middle East countries in the 70s and 80s I could detect the growing concern of many friends when perceiving their sons’ increasing scorn to what they used to call
“American materialism and customs downgrading”. The end result can be seen in the present boom of violence and hate amid young Muslims against us.
Youngsters offer a breeding grown that religious imams and politics do not hesitate to use for their own indescribable purposes.
Religions will always exist because they offer the ONLY reasonable anticipation of a better life. Even in the most backward tribes this need is being felt to sort of explain our reason of being.
During the 19th century, Christianity spread more rapidly than at any other time since the 4th century. In 1900 the world was 34,4% Christian and the Bible printed in 537 languages. This percentage is quite similar at what we are today. Muslims have grown too. This seems to favor Monotheistic Religions.
Right now, the main growth of Christian denominations is to be found in Latin America, Africa and Asia. Here in Europe it may take some more time yet. But in the States I would say that there have never been so many denominations and even sects which prove that a lot of people need to find some kind of comfort for their present life.
I therefore think we should be optimistic and positive and believe our little and insignificant world cannot really improve unless we recover our basic respect for the natural laws, the proper ethics and, in brief, we let religion warm again our hearts.

http://www.mrwiggleslovesyou.com/comics/rehab477.jpg

Need Karma,

Funny, though rather disrespectful!

Still, there is one truth implied therein... Namely, that our prayers, more often than not, hide selfish demands intended to improve our condition one way or other.

I guess we should be much better off in our family life if every day, when we get up, after saying "Good morning" to our wife/husband/sons, we should immediately and sincerely add "I love you..."

In the same way I believe, our prayers to Our Lord, should enclose many more "I Love You" and less "I would like..."

gromitt82,
I agree with you wholeheartedly,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I guess we should be much better off in our family life if every day, when we get up, after saying "Good morning" to our wife/husband/sons, we should immediately and sincerely add "I love you..." We do that in our family... and there is no god involved. I hope you do this as well.

Allow me to just meddle a little
Just that you know : I do not react - other than with this note - to people who yell at me...

:mad:

Couldn't we just simplify things by saying
The universe is amazing.

I mean every fact you had in your post was about the universe not god. Maybe there are other universes that aren't so great. I mean if want to say god created the universe fine but how do we know that he hasn't been working on it for a really long time. I'm sure with enough time I could create a universe too and maybe my universe would be better than this one wouldn't really make god amazing would it. I would say that would make him okay at best since I created a better universe.

God is amazing, if you sat back and thought about the post more thoroughly. He created everything in this world to keep it going. Bees take pollen from one flower to the other, thus helping the flower to grow. He made the heavens and the earth, he made apple trees so we can eat. He's kept the planets in space without them falling. He's done so much for everyone and everything. He truly is an amazing God.

God ... created everything in this world to keep it going. Bees take pollen from one flower to the other, thus helping the flower to grow.
So because "bees take pollen from one flower to the other" "God" exists?

What empty argumentation is that ?

:rolleyes:

.

http://www.mrwiggleslovesyou.com/comics/rehab477.jpg

"Atheist solve their problems without bothering God .."

The irony - atheist do not believe in God! That is like me asking FSM [ which I don't belieive in ] to help me. I know that FSM dose not exist and therefore would not waste my time even asking FSM for help ;)

"God prefers atheists"

That is, God prefers people that don't believe in His existence. That is a good one.

That is orders of magnitude more false than if I were to say Celtic players prefer Laker fans, because Laker fans don't believe in Celtics being winners. ;)

inthebox,
Excellent points well made.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Just that you know : I do not react - other than with this note - to people who yell at me ....

:mad:

I did not yell at you, did I? I was just trying to be polite! I come from an age -many years ago- when politeness and good manners (like saying please and thank you) were the normal procedure among normal people. I apologize if I have bothered you in any way!:)

"Atheist solve their problems without bothering God .."
The irony - atheist do not believe in God! That is like me asking FSM [ which I don't belieive in ] to help me. I know that FSM dose not exist and therefore would not waste my time even asking FSM for help ;)
"God prefers atheists"
That is, God prefers people that don't believe in His existence. That is a good one.
That is orders of magnitude more false than if I were to say Celtic players prefer Laker fans, because Laker fans don't believe in Celtics being winners. ;)Yes it is preposterous, that's what makes it funny.

NeedKarma,
Yes it was funny, even though silly.
Fred

I don't believe in atheists...

I dont believe in atheists...Then what am I? I belong to no religion, I pray to no god, there is no bible in our house.

Then what am I? I belong to no religion, I pray to no god, there is no bible in our house.

Well then, since I don't believe in you, you must not exist.








:D

I'm OK with that.
But you're comparing an invisible thing with a visible thing.

DrJizzle,
I agree with a bit of a twist.
I don't believe in atheism.
I don't believe that it really exists.
Everyone knows there is a supreme being whether they admit it or not.
Some struggle greatly to hide behind something else that they believe in like science.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'm sorry I disagree I honestly don't believe in a higher power or god. I think that people who believe are illogical and I believe it to be on par with believing in a tooth fairy or big foot. I think you follow blindly with no personal thought because you believe in something without any evidence for its existence and wildly claim that you hear voices and that proves god exists. Hoping one day more of mankind comes to its senses and casts off these ancient superstitions.

Fred, I'm sorry, but I disagree.


Everyone knows there is a supreme being whether they admit it or not.

Not true. You claim to know that God exists, but you only know in your heart, not in reality.

If you "know" then it's because of some proof. Not a vision, not a dream, not the bible, but proof that can be seen by everyone. Like I said, you can "know" in your heart.

I believe, and that's good enough for me, I don't feel the need to prove my belief. I have had experiences that lead me to believe that God exists, but I don't know He does, not by a long shot.

Yes, I still have doubts, but I choose to believe. I don't think I'll ever "know" for sure, at least not as long as I'm alive.

Atenweg and michealb,
I have previously stated whay and how I personally know there is a god.
Again...
He has answered many of my prayers and He saved my life in Korea.
I personally know there is a God and I'm certain that there are others who also do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You personally, in other words, in your heart you know, but in reality you can't prove what you claim to know. That's why it's still a belief to us.

Peace.

Altenweg,
I have all the POOF I need.
It is not just in my heart, it is also in my mind.
I think that each person needs personal proof of some sort to know that God exists.
I might be wrong about that, but it is what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In order to believe in God a lot of people do need proof, but most just have belief that God exists.

Most of the people that I know believe in God simply because they do, either because they're afraid that they'll be struck by lightening if they don't, or because it's been firmly ingrained in them from childhood. Very few people actually have any sort of personal proof of God's existence.

You are lucky Fred, but not everyone is as lucky.

Like I said, I have had experiences that lead me to believe that God exists, but absolute proof, sadly no.

Peace dear Fred and Goodnight. :)

Altenweg
Good night.
Sweet dreams,
God Bless you,
Fred

In order to believe in God alot of people do need proof, but most just have belief that God exists.

Most of the people that I know believe in God simply because they do, either because they're afraid that they'll be struck by lightening if they don't, or because it's been firmly ingrained in them from childhood. Very few people actually have any sort of personal proof of God's existence.

You are lucky Fred, but not everyone is as lucky.

Like I said, I have had experiences that lead me to believe that God exists, but absolute proof, sadly no.

Peace dear Fred and Goodnight. :)


Fred is certainly lucky! In my case, I have not had the chance of any personal experience I could assume as a proof that GOD exists. However, I have replaced it by evidence which, as far as I am concerned, is more than enough to be considered as a proof, i.e. the observation of the Firmament at night!!

In fact, whenever I have been able to look at the grandiose spectacle that offer us our Universe, I could say I have almost physically seen how all these zillions of stars were coming out of GOD's hands. I realize this is just a fantasy but Faith can take you to this kind of dreams. And for many people like me, our Faith is the only proof we need. So, in a way, I guess we are also quite lucky!
:):)

gromitt82,
I believe that indeed all who believe in God are lucky.
Belief in God provides us with much that unbelief does not.
Fred

gromitt82,
I believe that indeed all who believe in God are lucky.
Belief in God provides us with much that unbelief does not.
Fred

Absolutely!! :):):)

gromitt82 ,
Thanks
Fred

NK, you have yet to be visible to me... therefore, my belief in you continues to not exist :D

arcura, while I actually do agree with you to a point, I wouldn't use the words that you use to explain it. I use the word "God" because of what that word means to me... but there are many others that do not agree with that definition.

There is something more to Life than what can be proven by scientific methods.

For one to outright deny that is foolish.

NK, you have yet to be visible to me... therefore, my belief in you continues to not exist

Does god write to you in internet message boards?

Does god write to you in internet message boards?

Ya know what? I can't prove that He doesn't!

I am He.
You can't prove it isn't.

And ALL shall bow to He that is NK!


Who would have thunk it? All this time even God is an atheist!

Fred is certainly lucky! In my case, I have not had the chance of any personal experience I could assume as a proof that GOD exists. However, I have replaced it by evidence which, as far as I am concerned, is more than enough to be considered as a proof, i.e. the observation of the Firmament at night!!

In fact, whenever I have been able to look at the grandiose spectacle that offer us our Universe, I could say I have almost physically seen how all these zillions of stars were coming out of GOD's hands. I realize this is just a fantasy but Faith can take you to this kind of dreams. And for many people like me, our Faith is the only proof we need. So, in a way, I guess we are also quite lucky!
:):)

I have no evidence, no proof, just a belief, an unexplainable, unsubstantiated, possibly totatally ridiculous belief. Nevertheless, I do believe.

I look at the sky and I see stars, balls of burning gas, I don't think of God when viewing those stars. I look at my children, I love them so much, did God create them? I'm pretty sure I had a hand in it, I vividly remember labor and birth, yup, it was all me.

Yes, faith is the only thing we have, but is that proof? No, it's belief. Proof would imply that faith alone is good enough to substantiate the existence of God.

I, for my part was lucky enough to see some people being healed through people, by God's power. I can't explain what happened, but the results are there. I myself couldn't believe at first, but I gave in and accepted it.

I'll add that this belief is more than a simple and insignificant belief for me, but something that I cannot explain, it's beyond my understanding.

I'm not trying to make anyone believe me, but if you do, that's your choice. I don't want to put pressure on anyone, just sharing what I know and have seen.

Blessings to you.

I can heal people; they just have to be in on the trick as well. Also if you have ever actually talked to someone who says they are healed in during the event aren't actually healed after the event they just go along with it during because they don't want to embaris themselves. The emporer has no clothes; its just that no one at the event has the stones to tell him.

qxqRN5vjDHQ

"Atheist solve their problems without bothering God .."That is a fact...


"The irony - atheist do not believe in God!"Of course they don't. Atheist do not care if "God" exists. Some even believe that "God" does not exist. Most Atheists ignore the religious claims on the existence of "god" or "gods" as there is no OSE for any such wild claims.


"That is, God prefers people that don't believe in His existence. That is a good one.A typical theist approach. As Atheists either ignore or reject the existence of "god(s)", why would any Atheist care about what an entity - which he/she ignores or rejects - would think? For an Atheist an entity he/she ignores or rejects does not think - because it does not exist, at least there is no OSE for it's existence.

:rolleyes:

.

.

I can heal people; they just have to be in on the trick as well. Also if you have ever actually talked to someone who says they are healed in during the event aren't actually healed after the event they just go along with it during because they don't want to embaris themselves. The emporer has no clothes; its just that no one at the event has the stones to tell him.

Actually I know someone.:cool: And he has now a great faith in God, he surprises even me.

:rolleyes:

Peace

DrJizzle,
You are right.
There are a great number of things that science can not prove exist or do NOT exist... or... why the law of human nature is as it is as explained in the book Simple Christianity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
.

There are a great number of things that science can not prove exist or do NOT exist.... or.... why the law of human nature is as it is as explained in the book Simple Christianity.
Yes, dear Fred ! You are partly right on that.
Science can not explain and prove everything that exists or is. But in my views there is nothing wrong in admitting that you do not know everything. As long as scientists do their best to explain and support these explanations with as much as they can with proof (OSE). And that they all do. It is the basis of all science : ideas, explanations, testing (in some cases also rejection), support, proof, OSE.
Science EXPLAINS things, and does so with suggestions and ideas which are being tested, checked and re-checked to make sure they all are as near as possible to reality. Science in general does not make use of empty wild claims based on dogma and/or one single book that is beyond scrutiny.

However : religion - in this specific case Christianity - explains things by making use of claims and dogma, without any support other than BELIEF. There is no OSE of any religious explanation. There is no testing, checking, and re-checking of any claims. It's just what there is in the book : take it or be damned...

The simple book you refer to indeed provides a lot of claimed explanations. But if these have any connection with the real world is an entire different matter !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

Cred,
Religion explains things that are spiritual in nature.
From my point of view those are eternal not temporal as is science.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Then what am I? I belong to no religion, I pray to no god, there is no bible in our house.


You an agnostic. Athiests don't exist.

Ok, whatever helps you sleep at night.

[QUOTE=michealb;1303051]I'm sorry I disagree I honestly don't believe in a higher power or god. I think that people who believe are illogical and I believe it to be on par with believing in a tooth fairy or big foot.

Interestingly enough, you have dedicated quite a lot of your free time to argueing about a subject you find as ridicoulous as the tooth fairy. Mmm... quite commical. :D

You personally, in other words, in your heart you know, but in reality you can't prove what you claim to know. That's why it's still a belief to us.

Peace.

In that case your belief that "we just believe and dont know" is also just a belief to us unless you can prove that we don't know. In reality you can't prove what you are claiming either. It is just your opinion base on your belief.

Sassy, what kind of logic is that?

No, I can't believe that God doesn't exist, nor do I wish to. I believe in God, but I do not have any proof of his existence, no one does, otherwise everyone would believe, they'd be foolish not to.

To use your logic from another thread. I know that red shirts exist, I have a few myself, so when you say you know you're wearing a red shirt, I have no reason to dispute that, it's entirely possible that you are. But to say that you know something that has yet to be proven to exist, that isn't logical and not a legitimate claim.

Peace

[QUOTE]

Interestingly enough, you have dedicated quite a lot of your free time to argueing about a subject you find as ridicoulous as the tooth fairy. Mmm... quite commical. :D

Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I can't find it interesting. In fact if I ever find myself with more money than sense I think it would great to hunt for Atlantis. I know Atlantis is a story and I'm not going to find it but I would enjoy the hunt.

Also your telling me that if there was a large group of people that thought the tooth fairy was real. You wouldn't find that interesting. Especially when there is nothing you can do to change their minds. I would find it odd if you didn't find that interesting.

SassyT to NeedKarma:

You an agnostic. Athiests dont exist.
Atheists don't exist?

What is Atheism? / What is an Atheist?

ATHEISM

A THEISM

A = No(t) or Without

THEISM = Belief in "God" or "Gods"

ATHEISM = No or Without Belief in "God" or "Gods"

There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".
Ergo : there are many hundreds of millions of people who are Atheist.

So sassyT : you were wrong once again !

ATHEISTS EXIST ! ! !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

Actually there are a number of proofs that God exists and some have been in existence for centuries.
The problem is that that some people refuse to accept them.
They want scientific proof not logical and/or philosophical proofs.
Google proof of God on your computer to find many.
Fred

Ah! Good point Fred! :D

[QUOTE=michealb;1311750][QUOTE=sassyT;1311272]

Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I can't find it interesting. In fact if I ever find myself with more money than sense I think it would great to hunt for Atlantis. I know Atlantis is a story and I'm not going to find it but I would enjoy the hunt.



Also your telling me that if there was a large group of people that thought the tooth fairy was real. You wouldn't find that interesting. Especially when there is nothing you can do to change their minds. I would find it odd if you didn't find that interesting.

Lol.. I find it interesting that there are still people who believe the earth is flat, however I do not find it interesting to the extent that I dedicate my life's free time arguing against such people on an online forum. I don't know that's just me, maybe I just a have life.

Actually there are a number of proofs that God exists and some have been in existence for centuries.
The problem is that that some people refuse to accept them.
They want scientific proof not logical and/or philosophical proofs.
Google proof of God on your computer to find many.
Fred

I find it amazing that people want scientific proof (natural) for God (supernatural). :rolleyes:

... I dont know thats just me, maybe i just a have life.
We all have lives.

SassyT to NeedKarma:

Atheists don't exist ? ? ?

What is Atheism? / What is an Atheist?

ATHEISM

A THEISM

A = No(t) or Without

THEISM = Belief in "God" or "Gods"

ATHEISM = No or Without Belief in "God" or "Gods"

There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".
Ergo : there are many hundreds of millions of people who are Atheist.

So sassyT : you were wrong once again !

ATHEISTS EXIST ! ! !


.

.



You Believe athiests exist. So called athiests are just Agnostic. Agnostic meaning they don't know whether God exists or not.

You Believe athiests exist. So called athiests are just Agnostic. Agnostic meaning they dont know whether God exists or not.
You refuse to accept the real meaning of the words Atheism and Atheist...

So one more than : here we go again with the real meaning of Atheism :

What is Atheism? / What is an Atheist?

ATHEISM

A THEISM

A = No(t) or Without

THEISM = Belief in "God" or "Gods"

ATHEISM = No or Without Belief in "God" or "Gods"

There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are A-Theists

.

REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are A-Theists

.

REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are A-Theists

.

REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are A-Theists

.

Atheism is NOT (only) disbelief in the existence of a "supreme being or beings".
Most Atheists have NO opinion on the existence of a "supreme being or beings".
Only a few "Strong" Atheists do that. Most "Soft/Weak" Atheists simply ignore the possibility of existence of a "supreme being or beings", as there is no (OSE) proof for that religious claim.


Agnosticism is about questioning the existence of a supreme being or beings, with the conclusion that nobody will ever know.

Atheists do not question the existence of a supreme being or beings.

So Atheists are NOT Agnostics, and both Atheists and Agnostics exist !

.

There are many hundreds of millions of people who are Atheist.

So sassyT : you were wrong once again !

ATHEISTS EXIST ! ! !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

Why don't we settle this over a game of parcheesy!

DrJizzle, I'm in, bring on the parcheesy! :)

Anyone want to bet how long it will take before this thread is closed? I'm betting page 15, anyone else?

We just keep fighting about the same thing, over and over again, we're getting no where, we never will. Everyone here is too stubborn to listen to anyone else, yes, myself included. So, why are we still discussing when we all know it's futile?

Just a thought.

How else would we settle an discussion like this?

Honestly, I am surprised we made it THIS long... if we had a pool going, I would have lost PAGES ago!



Sassy... you KNOW God exists and...

I KNOW that you don't KNOW that God exists.

SO now we have a conundrum. You see, you KNOW God exists and that remains FACT until I disprove it. BUT... I KNOW that you Don't know God exists so now THAT remains a fact until YOU can disprove it!

:D

Ha!

Discussion over. There is nowhere left to go.

.... We just keep fighting about the same thing, over and over again, we're getting no where, we never will ....
That's not only the problem here, Alty!!
sassyT believes in "God" etc. etc. etc.
Fine with me. No problem with that. From me she may believe whatever she wants.

sassyT CLAIMS to know science and the scientific method and way of operation of science, but misuses science to attack evolution and origin of the universe and of life, and shows almost no scientific knowledge and capability of argumentation herself. Apparently all she can rely on is her BELIEF.
sassyT FAILS each time when asked to support her own ideas with any scientific evidence, but claims than the freedom to BELIEVE that .
sassyT is clearly not a reliable source, but is instead a fanatic fundamentalist creationist running at the leash of the ICR and sort like organisations.

sassyT became rather irritated when all her posts here ended in the conclusion that whatever she CLAIMED to be was what she BELIEVED to be.
It is for that reason that sassyT started this nonsense about "to know" instead of "to believe".
And as long as this topic remains open I will keep posting about her "to know" nonsense.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.
Post slightly shortened afterwards !
.

I do believe that this is a revenge post, a way to egg us on, otherwise there would be no point to this post at all.

I find Sassy's logic a bit off. To claim that because she knows that she had eggs and toast for breakfast she therefore also knows that God exists, that is backwards logic if I ever heard it.

Sassy wants an argument, and even though we've repeatedly pointed out that she can believe in God, heck, she can even believe that God exists, but to state that she knows of God's existence requires proof and she still won't change her statement, well, that just says to me that someone wants to be right no matter what.

Sassy, on a personal note, I'd love nothing more than proof of God's existence, it would verify my belief, it would finally give me proof that what I believe is real and not just a figment of my overactive imagination.

I too believe in God, but I cannot claim to know that God exists, because there simply isn't any proof of that, none. No one can claim to know of Gods existence, they can know in their heart, but to say that they know requires proof. That's the bottom line.

Darnit, I can't stay away. :(

.... Sassy wants an arguement .....
Fine with me. But in that case she should not hide behind her BELIEF and her claim to "know" , and instead provide real answers and OSE support for her claims.
Till she does that her claims are completely INVALID, UNSUPPORTED, and based on nothing but HOT AIR !

:rolleyes:

.

I am telling you... there is only ONE way to solve this issue... ONE way to override all scientific facts, theory, proofs, religious claims, religious "facts", spiritual beliefs, philosophical views, insane accusations, psychosomatic quandaries, and even my supreme knowledge!!

Need I say it?








(Parcheesy!)

Game on! ;)

See that's one of the reasons I find it so interesting is because people like SassyT are considered sane. I mean if there is a group of people that believe in aliens or the tooth fairy you can dismiss call them insane but you can't do that with people who believe in god. Personally I find studying this worth my time others may not but I'm always interested in learning.

Sassyt.
Faith is a good thing to have.
Without faith nothing can be accomplished.
One must have faith even to do simple things like prepare a meal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Faith is different than religious faith. I make breakfast all the time without having a religious faith. I do however have faith in my ability to cook breakfast. Two totally different animals.

michealb,
I think not.
I think faith is faith and can be applied to ant endeavor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Sassyt is showing faith, because she knows that not everything is proven about spiritual things.
Jesus gave many parables that his contemporaries, who measured his statements by physical things, could not fathom. Jesus did miracles, and they didn't accept them either, because miracles supported his message, which they weren't prepared to accept. They wanted to just bury the whole idea of jesus, and they did.
Sassyt has faith for that which takes faith, the living jesus and god:
Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

cogs,
There are lot of doubting Thomases in this world.
I pray that all their an our doubts will be but aside in favor of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cogs and fred...

No, no, no... that is not fair that you take that route. No one here is doubting her FAITH... we are just trying to make her realize that it is FAITH... not KNOWLEDGE.

Sassy DOESN'T know that "not everything is proven about spiritual things". She seems to think that he faith or belief in something is PROOF of its existence.

That is not accurate nor is it healthy to her FAITH.

She is not backing up her claims with miracles or anything that can be deemed as any sort of proof.

It's that kind of talk that produce mindsets like this. Instead of setting the right frame of mind, you are simply encouraging ignorance.

... And thus, the biggest downfall of Religion as we know it.

DrJizzle, I wish there was an agree button on this thread. I agree 100% with what you just said, couldn't have said it better myself. :)

You also have to realize that faith can be bad. Like say if I had faith that I could fly so I jumped off the roof or how about the 9/11 terrorists they had faith that god was going to reward them. Faith can be bad religious faith can worse.

Very true!

I had faith that persistence in this thread would actually open eyes...

Instead, I just wasted a bunch of time!

Hehe :D

You refuse to accept the real meaning of the words Atheism and Atheist ...

So one more than : here we go again with the real meaning of Atheism :

What is Atheism? / What is an Atheist?

ATHEISM

A THEISM

A = No(t) or Without

THEISM = Belief in "God" or "Gods"

ATHEISM = No or Without Belief in "God" or "Gods"

There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are A-Theists

.

REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are A-Theists

.

REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are A-Theists

.

REPEAT :
There are many hundreds of millions of people who have no (or are without) belief in "God" or "Gods".

So they are A-Theists

.

Atheism is NOT (only) disbelief in the existence of a "supreme being or beings".
Most Atheists have NO opinion on the existence of a "supreme being or beings".
Only a few "Strong" Atheists do that. Most "Soft/Weak" Atheists simply ignore the possibility of existence of a "supreme being or beings", as there is no (OSE) proof for that religious claim.


Agnosticism is about questioning the existence of a supreme being or beings, with the conclusion that nobody will ever know.

Atheists do not question the existence of a supreme being or beings.

So Atheists are NOT Agnostics, and both Atheists and Agnostics exist !

.

There are many hundreds of millions of people who are Atheist.

So sassyT : you were wrong once again !

ATHEISTS EXIST ! ! !


.

.

Again Cred. These are just your Beliefs. There is no such thing as an atheist. Because all an "Athiest" is, is a person who claims there is no god, but the reality is they don't know whether God exists or not. Which essentially makes an atheist, An Agnostic. ;)

Sassy... how can you stand on this point?

Rearrange that post a little and you have this:

All a Christian is, is a person who claims that Christ is their Savior, but the reality is they don't know whether God exists or not.

how else would we settle an discussion like this??

Honestly, I am surprised we made it THIS long... if we had a pool going, I would have lost PAGES ago!



Sassy... you KNOW God exists and....

I KNOW that you don't KNOW that God exists.

SO now we have a conundrum. You see, you KNOW God exists and that remains FACT until I disprove it. BUT... i KNOW that you DONT know God exists so now THAT remains a fact until YOU can disprove it!

:D

ha!

Discussion over. There is nowhere left to go.


Lol... I KNOW you dont whether I KNOW God exists or not. Because if you KNOW I don't KNOW God exists, then you must be God Himself since despite the fact that you have never even met me, you already "KNOW" what I KNOW and don't KNOW. Mmm... so are you claiming you possess some kind of god like supernatural ability to read minds?

Lol... you people seriously crack me up. You insist I do not Know God exists, as if you even know me... lol. I just find it entertaining! :D
But again, on a serious note, I respect all your opinions on the matter. ;)

lol... I KNOW you dont whether I KNOW God exists or not. Because if you KNOW i don't KNOW God exists, then you must be God Himself since despite the fact that you have never even met me, you already "KNOW" what i KNOW and dont KNOW. mmm... so are you claiming you posess some kind of god like supernatural ability to read minds?

Ive been waiting for you to put 2 and 2 together! You claim that you KNOW I exist but this whole time, you didn't even recognize me!!

:D

Ive been waiting for you to put 2 and 2 together! You claim that you KNOW I exist but this whole time, you didnt even recognize me!!!



You see! I told I knew you existed!! :D ;)

And NOW you know ;) :D

and NOW you know ;) :D


Haha told you so :p




:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=michealb;1313745]See that’s one of the reasons I find it so interesting is because people like SassyT are considered sane.

I'm in sain..? What do you call people like DrJizzle who claims to be God?


I mean if there is a group of people that believe in aliens or the tooth fairy you can dismiss call them insane but you can't do that with people who believe in god. Personally I find studying this worth my time others may not but I'm always interested in learning.

That is because the likehood of a supernatural intelligent being that created the universe is more likely to be true than "a big bang" that was somehow intelligent enough to design life. I think people who believe in this hoax are the ones who need to check their sanity. :rolleyes:

Hey! There's a fine line between insanity and genius ;)


So what do you think of people that are Christian AND believe in the Big Bang? Sounds like a pretty good way for me.. I mean, God, to create the Universe anyway, dontcha think?

cogs and fred....

no, no, no... that is not fair that you take that route. No one here is doubting her FAITH... we are just trying to make her realize that it is FAITH... not KNOWLEDGE.

Sassy DOESN'T know that "not everything is proven about spiritual things". She seems to think that he faith or belief in something is PROOF of its existence.

That is not accurate nor is it healthy to her FAITH.

She is not backing up her claims with miracles or anything that can be deemed as any sort of proof.

It's that kind of talk that produce mindsets like this. Instead of setting the right frame of mind, you are simply encouraging ignorance.

...And thus, the biggest downfall of Religion as we know it.
Peter would never have walked on water, if he didn't have the mindset that sassyt has. Like you, he would have analyzed his knowledge of the permeability of water, and that's exactly why he began to sink.

If god should tell sassyt to do something, she wouldn't ignore him because she thinks there's no way god speaks to people. You may say that god did not speak to her. You may say that jesus or peter never walked on water.

But me, I can accept the big bang theory, just as well as a god who used this method to create everything. So we would both have faith that it's possible for the universe to be created from an explosion. We're not crazy, we just pick the most logical answer to something that already exists.

For sassyt to say that she knows something that requires faith to know, only tells me that she has ruled out the other possibilities, and found that faith is the most logical action. She has traded what she could not know, for that which she believes, based on what she does know.

Is this foolish? Then of what purpose is faith? It would be no longer faith:

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

When you say "you" I don't know if you are speaking directly to me or the collective "you" but you apparently don't know what I believe.

That's okay... and beside the point.

Faith is exactly where it is at. Faith is ALL we have. If we had KNOWLEDGE, we would not need Faith... because we would simply know.

What THEN would be the purpose of Faith?

I am not the one that would have sank on the water... although, I understand what you were trying to say.

But hear this: This thread and discussion went way out of control. The argument here is not about the existence of or belief in God. The argument is simply whether SassyT, or any human for that matter, KNOWS that God exists.

It is one thing to "believe" God exists... it's unfortunate that so many do not... however, the point that was trying to be made (which seems SO ridiculous now) is simply that to actually "know" that God exists would require concrete proof... concrete proof that she, nor any other human being, has... at least to our (the collective "our") knowledge.

peter would never have walked on water, if he didn't have the mindset that sassyt has

Tell you what, if SassyT can walk on water then maybe I'll believe that she knows that God exists.

I'll be checking YouTube for that video. :)

DrJizzle,
In case you did not know a Christian faith is far more than just belief.
It is belief plus trust and a knowing that others can't seem to understand.
I KNOW my redeemer lives.
I Know God exists.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tell you what, if SassyT can walk on water then maybe I'll believe that she knows that God exists.

I'll be checking YouTube for that video. :)

Even then, I bet there will still be some of you, maybe not you Aly (:D), but others. For example, some may say of a special effect, like in films etc.

Unknown008
Yes, Jerry, there will always be some like that.
I feel very sorry for them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I feel very sorry for them.
Dear Fred
And I feel sorry for you and your theist peers that you can not live on your own capacities...
Peace and kindness,
John

:)

.

Cred,
That's where you are mistaken.
We can and do live on are own capacities.
But we also have what you do not and that is God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

But we also have what you do not and that is God.
Dear Fred. I do not need myths , wild claims, and lot's of religious hot air to guide my life...
Peace and kindness too,
John

:)

.

Credendovidis,
So you believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So you believe.
No Fred. I do NOT believe in a religious manner.
I see no reason nor OSE for the existence of any super-natural deity and/or power.

As I stated many times before : I can guide my life within the limits of moral and ethical thinking with a social "tang" for the relation with and my concern for my fellow co-Homo Sapiens Sapiens without any need for myth and religious beliefs.

I am sure that most people could do the same had they not been brainwashed as child with religious ideas, and as adult had really tried to live on their own strength.

Peace and kindness to you too,

John

:)

.

.

Fred, although your beliefs bring you peace that doesn't mean that someone without those same beliefs hasn't found peace within themselves.

You do not need God in order to be a good person, to live by an ethical code.

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians seem to think that they're the only "good" people on earth. God doesn't make you good, you make you good.

... God doesn't make you good, you make you good...
That's true, we have to work to make us good. But we are only able to do that with the help and conviction of the holy spirit. It's repentance, and is required, regardless of how good we are to our neighbor. If we should do good works from ourselves, they are counted as nothing to god. But out of faith to god, and at the direction of the holy spirit, we're not doing it of ourselves, but letting god work his will through us.

Fred, although your beliefs bring you peace that doesn't mean that someone without those same beliefs hasn't found peace within themselves.

You do not need God in order to be a good person, to live by an ethical code.

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians seem to think that they're the only "good" people on earth. God doesn't make you good, you make you good.


What "good" or "ethical code" are you referring to?

What if Hitler's " ethical code" was to survive and pass on genetic information by what ever means necessary because certain races are superior . Was Hitler "good?" :confused:

What makes one ethical code better than another's ?
What make one person more good than another if there is no standard?
How is that standard derived?



I don't know what " Christians " you associate with but Roman 3:23 ;)


I cannot be "good " enough but by the GRACE of Jesus Christ's death and Resurrection :D

inthebox
Good questions.
I believe that there are a lot of good peop;e in this world who are not Christians and a lot that are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What "good" or "ethical code" are you referring to?
What if Hitler's " ethical code" was to survive and pass on genetic information by what ever means necessary because certain races are superior . Was Hitler "good?"
Are you starting up that old hat "Hitler was an Atheist" again? Than I'll respond with the OSE supported position that Hitler was a Roman Catholic Christian with lot's of other spiritual ideas...


What makes one ethical code better than another's ?
What make one person more good than another if there is no standard?
How is that standard derived?
Basically all systems use the same basis : "the Golden Rule", a standard that is millennia older than the Jewish and Christian cultures.


I cannot be "good " enough ....
At least you could try. It would make discussions here a lot more friendlier...

:rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

.

.

Cred,
There are a lot of friedley folks here.
Try being friendly with them rather than accusing them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Try being friendly with them rather than accusing them.
But some are certainly not friendly Fred!!

Note that I react on what THEY post, Fred.
Don't blame the messenger. Blame the one who posted it first him/her self!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

This...



Thread...




Will...




Never...





Die!!

Threads always die, just like hitler, who was not following the golden rule.
From the bible's characterization of god's work, we can see that hitler did not follow god, as god and jesus spoke against murder. And the very people god set out to be a holy nation, hitler attempted to exterminate, as if he were god. And by the way, they say hitler committed suicide.

Cred,
You often use a generality that accuses all Christians of being un-christian-like.
Please stop doing that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[QUOTE=DrJizzle;1315089]When you say "you" I don't know if you are speaking directly to me or the collective "you" but you apparently don't know what I believe.

That's okay... and beside the point.

Faith is exactly where it is at. Faith is ALL we have. If we had KNOWLEDGE, we would not need Faith... because we would simply know.

What THEN would be the purpose of Faith?

DrJ. Let me make myself clearer. I agree with all of the above but let me explain where I am coming from. I KNOW God as much as I know Goerge Bush is president, but do I KNOW that God is this one true God who created the heavens and earth? The Answere is NO, I do NOT know that, however I believe he is, I have FAITH the God I KNOW is the One true God the creator of the Heavens and the earth. I have Faith in Him whom I have come to KNOW exists. So yes you are right I do have Faith because I don't know everything, but I do know there is a God. I don't know why you think it is impossible to know God exists. It is not at all. Many people now and in the past have known God exists.


I am not the one that would have sank on the water... although, I understand what you were trying to say.

Peter knew God existed but needed faith to believe he could walk on water.


But hear this: This thread and discussion went way out of control. The argument here is not about the existence of or belief in God. The argument is simply whether SassyT, or any human for that matter, KNOWS that God exists.

After God parted the Red Sea, Do you think Moses would have said he KNEW God existed or do you think he would have said he "BELIEVED" God existed?


It is one thing to "believe" God exists... it's unfortunate that so many do not... however, the point that was trying to be made (which seems SO ridiculous now) is simply that to actually "know" that God exists would require concrete proof... concrete proof that she, nor any other human being, has... at least to our (the collective "our") knowledge.

What kind of concrete proof are you talking about? Do you mean I would have to give concrete proof to the world or personal concrete proof that confirms His existence to me?

DrJizzle,
In case you did not know a Christian faith is far more than just belief.
It is belief plus trust and a knowing that others can't seem to understand.
I KNOW my redeemer lives.
I Know God exists.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes Acura, I don't know why these people don't get it. :confused:: :confused:

Sassy... let me try to get on the same level as you. I truly believe, in my heart of hearts that God exists. So much so that I really want to say that I KNOW He exists... in fact, I believe that I DO know He exists! I know... totally contradictory... but in reality, I cannot actually say that I know He exists based on what it takes to truly KNOW something.

Are you married? It's like being married for 50 years... your significant other loves you every day and shows it every day. There has never been a day in your life that you haven't felt the love of your spouse.

No matter how much you believe that your spouse loves you, you can, unfortunately, never KNOW that he/she does. You cannot know their heart. Only God can, right? In the same right, we cannot KNOW God's existence... no matter how much we believe that we do.

No one... not one... has ever seen God.

No one... not one... can ever prove God.

Not even when the seas were parted has anyone ever seen God.

That is why Faith is required.

God does not want anyone to know His existence. If He did... we simply would ALL know... why not, right?


Also... again, Im not saying anything about you "Knowing God"... that is something completely different.

Dear Fred. I do not need myths , wild claims, and lot's of religious hot air to guide my life ....
Peace and kindness too,
John

:)

.


You Just don't know God like we do, that is why He is a myth to you. But no worries, soon enough when you die you will be up for a rude awakening of Knowing God... :D The look on your face will be priceless, I look forward to that.. hehe :D

You Just dont know God like we do, that is why He is a myth to you. But no worries, soon enough when you die you will be up for a rude awakening of Knowing God... :D The look on your face will be priceless, i look forward to that..hehe :D

While I normally do not agree with Creden's statements about faith and knowing God, nor do I particularly like the way in which he says things at times, he has a right to say whatever he wishes. That is part of free will. We all have the ability to choose what we believe and what we accept as fact and faith.

That being said, I believe that God exists. I believe it in my heart of hearts, and yes, I would say that I know He exists because I can look around and see what He created.

But, that is MY opinion. That is MY belief. I cannot make anyone else believe what I believe. I can live my life in such a way that demonstrates what I believe, I can tell other people why I believe in God, but ultimately, I cannot MAKE them believe.

So, you see SassyT, I agree with you. I agree that God does exist.

But, you offended me when you said that you "look forward" to seeing Creden's face when he realizes after death that there is a God. Because, what does that mean, according to the Bible and according to what you believe, those who do not believe will be sent to an eternity in Hell.

In essence, you are saying that you will smile when Creden is sent to Hell. That, my friend, is sad.

It doesn't matter WHAT Creden says to you or anyone else, according to your belief system, you should not joy in another's unbelief. No matter WHAT they say.

[QUOTE=DrJizzle;1322944]Sassy... let me try to get on the same level as you. I truly believe, in my heart of hearts that God exists. So much so that I really want to say that I KNOW He exists... in fact, I believe that I DO know He exists! I know... totally contradictory... but in reality, I cannot actually say that I know He exists based on what it takes to truly KNOW something.


Okay so help me understand, what does it take to Truly KNOW something? Do you Believe Hitler Existed or do you KNOW Hilter existed? Do you believe Queen Elizabeth Exists or Do you Know She exists?


Are you married? It's like being married for 50 years... your significant other loves you every day and shows it every day. There has never been a day in your life that you haven't felt the love of your spouse.

No matter how much you believe that your spouse loves you, you can, unfortunately, never KNOW that he/she does. You cannot know their heart. Only God can, right? In the same right, we cannot KNOW God's existence... no matter how much we believe that we do.

Yes I am married but you are not comparing apples to apples here. This comparison would be effective if I had said "I know God Love me" however that is not what I am saying. I BELIEVE and Have Faith that God loves me, but I KNOW He exists.
I know my spouse exists but yes I can never know with certainty if he loves me or not.


No one... not one... has ever seen God.

This is just your belief, because how do you KNOW that no one has never seen God??
My Brother says he saw God/Jesus when he was on his death bed dying from full blown AIDS (which God has healed). I believe him, you on the other hand, may not believe he saw God but you can never know unless you were in the room with him. There have been many other people who have given accounts of seeing Jesus, or Angels or supernatural beings.. So you can not say the no one has ever seen God, that may be your opinion but it is not a fact.


No one... not one... can ever prove God.

Well, this is also not necessarily true because there are different kinds of "proof" and what one considers concrete proof may not be proof to another so it is subjective.
Maybe a better way to say it is "No one can ever Scientifically Prove God" and that is the proof most people are looking for however Science is the study of NATURAL Phenomina and God is SUPERnatural.


Not even when the seas were parted has anyone ever seen God.

Yes but they were able to see His power part the red sea. No one has ever seen the wind but we all know it's there because we see its effects. Same with God, even though Moses did no see God, he was able to see the effects of God.




God does not want anyone to know His existence. If He did... we simply would ALL know... why not, right?

I believe God wants us to seek Him and find Him and come to know His existence, and many people who seek Him have come to the knowledge of His existence. But there are many who Don't want to Know whether He exists or not and some who have just said he is non existent.

While I normally do not agree with Creden's statements about faith and knowing God, nor do I particularly like the way in which he says things at times, he has a right to say whatever he wishes. That is part of free will. We all have the ability to choose what we believe and what we accept as fact and faith.

That being said, I believe that God exists. I believe it in my heart of hearts, and yes, I would say that I know He exists because I can look around and see what He created.

But, that is MY opinion. That is MY belief. I cannot make anyone else believe what I believe. I can live my life in such a way that demonstrates what I believe, I can tell other people why I believe in God, but ultimately, I cannot MAKE them believe.

So, you see SassyT, I agree with you. I agree that God does exist.

But, you offended me when you said that you "look forward" to seeing Creden's face when he realizes after death that there is a God. Because, what does that mean, according to the Bible and according to what you believe, those who do not believe will be sent to an eternity in Hell.

In essence, you are saying that you will smile when Creden is sent to Hell. That, my friend, is sad.

It doesn't matter WHAT Creden says to you or anyone else, according to your belief system, you should not joy in another's unbelief. No matter WHAT they say.

Yes you are right HistoricChick, I should be deeply greived that Cred will probably spend iternity in Hell according to the Word of God. I never thought of that... I repent, God forgive me :(

Wasn't it you asking for OSE in the first place?

To be perfectly honest with you, I Don't KNOW Hitler existed. I honestly don't. 1,000,000,000 people could tell me that they saw him in person but that doesn't mean that I KNOW he existed.

That goes for the rest of your examples.

In the truest sense of the word, we, as humans, don't exactly KNOW anything!

We theorize... we conclude... we "prove"... we guess... to the extent that our limited vision of the world, as we know it, will allow us to.

Thus is the point.

And thus is the new extent of silliness that this argument has come to.

Wasn't it you asking for OSE in the first place?

To be perfectly honest with you, I DONT KNOW Hitler existed. I honestly dont. 1,000,000,000 people could tell me that they saw him in person but that doesnt mean that I KNOW he existed.

That goes for the rest of your examples.

In the truest sense of the word, we, as humans, don't exactly KNOW anything!

We theorize... we conclude... we "prove"... we guess... to the extent that our limited vision of the world, as we know it, will allow us to.

Thus is the point.

And thus is the extent of silliness that this argument has come to.

Well, DrJ. You are right, I guess one can not even say they know Goerge Bush exists with certainty, Right?. lol That's why I said "as much as i know George Bush exists, is as much as I know God exists. "

cred, You often use a generality that accuses all Christians of being un-christian-like. Please stop doing that.
Dear Fred,
Your statement is incorrect : I do not accuse all Christians of being un-christian-like.
I mention those who post un-christian-like statements.
There is even someone here who claims loudly to be a strict Christian, who invited me to carry out blaphemic actions. While you can not have missed that, I did not see you reacting to that at all.
How strange that you always find statements by me to complain about, while much worse statements by "christians" are never mentioned...
It's sad to see you so selective in your complaints.
Peace and kindness to you too,
John

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

Back to the subject,
I believe that God Is amazing due to what is recorded that he has done and is capable of plus what I have seen and witnessed in this world.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Back to the subject, I believe that God Is amazing due to what is recorded that he has done and is capable of plus what I have seen and witnessed in this world.
Yes Fred. I realize that you believe that, and I respect what you believe.
That was never my point.
I question IF "God" is indeed amazing, or that that is just what you and many others believe.
Is all that was recorded ever OSE verified ? Is all that you have seen and witnessed at any time OSE proved?
I don't think so.
Peace and kindness to you too, Fred !

:)

.

.

Credendovidis,
There is no need for OSE for me to Know what which I personally know through my Christan faith which is far more than just belief.
I hope and pray that some day soon you will have the joy and blessings of being a Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

There is no need for OSE for me to Know what which I personally know through my Christan faith which is far more than just belief.
I hope and pray that some day soon you will have the joy and blessings of being a Christian.

For YOU that need may not be there. But for me that proves that all you do is BELIEVE that, dear Fred.

As for your praying : that day will never came, Fred. I have more than enough joy and blessings in my life already. No need for more of that stuff, specially as they are only based on mythical and religious wild claims.

Have a nice day, Fred.

:)

.

.

For YOU that need may not be there. But for me that proves that all you do is BELIEVE that, dear Fred.

As for your praying : that day will never came, Fred. I have more than enough joy and blessings in my life already. No need for more of that stuff, specially as they are only based on mythical and religious wild claims.

Have a nice day, Fred.

:)

.

.


While I respect very much your point of view - which I think is typical of today's materialism that overwhelms us - I would like to point out that the joy and blessings that I'm looking forward - and I'm sure Arcura also does - are NOT to be considered of this world, but of the other Kingdom we both believe in. The problem is that all the happiness and riches one may enjoy in this life (which is so short) must be LEFT BEHIND when we GO. This is a very sad fact that nobody can deny, unless one may be looking forward to something infinitely better in the BEYOND!
Those mythical and religious wild claims may, after all, BE TRUE.
ACTUALLY, THEY ARE TRUE FOR MILLIONS OF US...
But, if we are wrong after all, what have we lost in this life? We have lived a full and peaceful life as you probably have. We have equally been as happy as many and have also been as unhappy at times as anybody else... On the other hand, if we turn out, as we strongly believe, to be right and you are wrong, our prize will be inmense. What will be yours?

...The problem is that all the happiness and riches one may enjoy in this life (which is so short) must be LEFT BEHIND when we GO.
Yes of course. When you die you have no further need for anything material.
But where is the OSE that the promissed "hereafter" is nothing but a mythical claim??


Those mythical and religious wild claims may, after all, BE TRUE
The chances are much higher that they are not true. Pascals Wager has been proved invalid a long time ago !


But, if we are wrong after all, what have we lost in this life? We have lived a full and peaceful life as you probably have. We have equally been as happy as many and have also been as unhappy at times as anybody else...
I doubt that. All I see is religious hatred and intolerance.
Many religious people have lived an almost entire life under the threat of eternal damnation.


On the other hand, if we turn out, as we strongly believe, to be right and you are wrong, our prize will be inmense. What will be yours?
Again : Pascals Wager has been proved invalid a long time ago !

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :rolleyes: :D

.

.

Credendovidis
It is sad the you are stuck in a world where OSE s are the only thing of importance.
In the world of spirituality OSE is useless for no way can they prove that there is no God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Cred, do you need OSE for everything? I'm now wondering...

Unknown008 ,
Cred is stuck on that.
He ignores logic when it comes to the reality Of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Cred, do you need OSE for everything? I'm now wondering...


"No human being should learn from another. Each individual should develop his own powers to the uttermost, not try to imitate those of someone else."

"Never, never, never, ever give up." Winston Churchill

"I want that people would come even if there is no road at all." David Livingstone

While I do agree on Churchill's and Livingstone's quotes I cannot accept the first one. We are AALWAYS learning from others' experiences. We start learning from others when we go to the kindergarden and we go on through schools and colleges. Then at work and in our carrier when we avail ourselves of the experiences of those that came before us.
Other than that, what has the said quote with the subject matter being debated here?

Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.

That is the way it works for everything but your religion. You don't believe the toothfairy because there is no OSE but god you believe because...

Acura I think you have it backward though religious people ignore logic and reason when it come to god. I think Cred and I would be perfectly open to the idea that there is a god as long as there was some evidence. Even if it was some personal evidence that I couldn't reproduce for you. Frankly there is more evidence for big foot than there is for an all powerful god that watches over us and I don't believe in bigfoot either.

Also the more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence must be.

Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.

That is the way it works for everything but your religion. You don't believe the toothfairy because there is no OSE but god you believe because....

Acura I think you have it backward though religious people ignore logic and reason when it come to god. I think Cred and I would be perfectly open to the idea that there is a god as long as there was some evidence. Even if it was some personal evidence that I couldn't reproduce for you. Frankly there is more evidence for big foot than there is for an all powerful god that watches over us and I don't believe in bigfoot either.

Also the more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence must be.

As you obviously DO NOT consider our fascinating Universe Evidence enough, I think it is quite pointless to follow the debate. You are entitled to your own opinion as Arcura or I are entitled to ours. In other words, I DO NOT uqestion your right to think as you please and/or believe what you want BUT WE (I) expect you to do the same as far as we (I) are concerned.

Michaelb,
I challenge you and every atheist to read Mere Christianity ny C.S. Lewis with an open mind that admits that there just MIGHT be a God.
Lewis was an atheist who believed a lot in and on logic.
His logic is in that book.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.



I'm not as optimistic as Arcura about the profit you can get out of your reading the book he recommends by C.S.Lewis. You can always look into the Wikipedia under "Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis" to get some addirtional info on this wonderful book.

But the reason as to why I'm not so optimistic is because I believe that NO OE IS BLINDER THAN HE WHO WILL NOT SEE.

Let me inject one short article by Alexander Green:

Quote:

Last April in Washington D.C., a young man in blue jeans and a T-shirt emerged from the metro and positioned himself against a wall beside a trash basket.

He removed a violin from a small case, threw in a few dollars and pocket change as seed money, and began to play.

Over the next 45 minutes, more than 1,000 people passed by. Six minutes elapsed before anyone stopped to listen. A crowd never gathered. In fact, only seven people stopped to listen for a minute or more. When he was finished, the young man collected the few extra dollars from his violin case and left.

What's so unusual about this? Nothing, apparently.

However, the violinist was no ordinary street performer. It was Joshua Bell, one of the finest classical musicians in the world, playing some of the most elegant music ever written, on one of the most valuable violins ever created, a $3.5 million Stradivarius made in the 1710s.

He was participating in an experiment on "perception and priorities" arranged by The Washington Post.

Three days before, Bell had sold out Boston's Symphony Hall, where the cheap seats went for $100 apiece. Two weeks later, he played to a standing-room-only audience at the Music Center at Strathmore, in North Bethesda.

Just how good is Joshua Bell? One prominent music magazine says his playing "does nothing less than tell human beings why they bother to live."

Despite his genius, not 1% of more than 1,000 passers-by stopped to listen for even one minute.

Some folks, of course, will attribute this to the general public's abysmal taste in music. But I think something more was going on here. And it has nothing to do with musical tastes or even the hectic pace of modern life.

After all, Helen Keller noticed much the same thing more than 70 years ago - and she was deaf and blind. Writing in The Atlantic Monthly in 1933, she said,

"Recently I was visited by a very good friend who had just returned from a long walk in the woods, and I asked her what she had observed. 'Nothing in particular,' she replied. I might have been incredulous had I not been accustomed to such responses, for long ago I became convinced that the seeing see little.

"How was it possible, I asked myself, to walk for an hour through the woods and see nothing of note? I who cannot see find hundreds of things to interest me through mere touch. I feel the delicate symmetry of a leaf. I pass my hands lovingly about the smooth skin of a birch, or the rough, shaggy, bark of a pine. In spring I touch the branches of trees hopefully in search of a bud... I feel the delightful, velvety texture of a flower... I am delighted to have the cool waters of a brook rush through my open fingers. To me a lush carpet of pine needles or spongy grass is more welcome than the most luxurious Persian rug.

"If I can get so much pleasure from mere touch, how much more beauty must be revealed by sight. Yet, those who have eyes apparently see little. The panorama of color and action which fills the world is taken for granted. It is human, perhaps, to appreciate little that which we have and to long for that which we have not, but it is a great pity that in the world of light the gift of sight is used only as a mere convenience rather than a means of adding fullness to life."

I won't comment further on these two stories. They speak volumes by themselves.

However, I will add one brief quote from John Horgan, author of "Rational Mysticsm":

"The best spiritual advice is the simplest: Pay attention. See! Or rather, cherish. Cherish what you have before it's gone."

NO OE IS BLINDER THAN HE WHO WILL NOT SEE. Actually the quote is: "None are so blind as those who will not see." And it kind of works both ways here.

Actually the quote is: "None are so blind as those who will not see." And it kind of works both ways here.

Actually this seems to be an old proverb attributed to the Englishman, John Heywood, in 1546 -- and used by Jonathan Swift in 1738, and in America by Thomas Chalkey in 1713, which says, "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."

But, other than that, and while I agree it does work both ways here, let me just say that figures tend to show that we might be right.

According to a 2005 survey published in Encyclopædia Britannica they find that the non-religious make up about 11.9% of the world's population, and atheists about 2.3%. So we should conclude that those who believe in some sort of god may add to some 5.700 billion people against some 150 million who simply DO NOT believe in anything except in themselves.
Now, of the above 5.700 billion some 2.000 billion (approx. 35%) happen to be Chritians, i.e. close to 14 times more than atheists.
Chances are, therefore, that the above proverb may rather be applied to the lesser number (the exception) than to the majority. At least in sheer logic!

Sorry, I don't follow something simply because it's popular. And yes, I do believe in myself... and my family, and my friends, and that the sun will come up tomorrow, and that I like cinnamon buns, I believe in a lot of things, just not in a god that I should worship.

While I do agree on Churchill's and Livingstone's quotes I cannot accept the first one. We are AALWAYS learning from others' experiences. We start learning from others when we go to the kindergarden and we go on through schools and colleges. Then at work and in our carrier when we avail ourselves of the experiences of those that came before us.
Other than that, what has the said quote with the subject matter being debated here?

Sorry for the first quote, but it was from a book, where the 'learn' was not what you were thinking of. I meant doing exactly the same thing as another, in his ways, actions even thoughts! I just didn't want to modify the quote to keep its originallity.


Careful, career, not carrier! :rolleyes:

And if you didn't know, I was in that thread from its beginning, even if I didn't post so often.


Yes I need evidence for everything and I need OSE for things people tell me.

If you met someone you loved, how would you ask for OSE that that person loves you?

Peace.

For YOU that need may not be there. But for me that proves that all you do is BELIEVE that, dear Fred.

As for your praying : that day will never came, Fred. I have more than enough joy and blessings in my life already. No need for more of that stuff, specially as they are only based on mythical and religious wild claims.

Have a nice day, Fred.


.

.


I'm Afriad that day will come. You can believe me or not but one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is God. Including you Cred. The day will come... ;)

I'm Afriad that day will come. You can believe me or not but one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is God. Including you Cred. The day will come... Nah. Just saying doesn't make it so.

Nah. Just saying doesn't make it so.

I guess time will tell, right

Agreed. Call me when you're dead and tell me what happened.

Sorry, I don't follow something simply because it's popular. And yes, I do believe in myself ... and my family, and my friends, and that the sun will come up tomorrow, and that I like cinnamon buns, I believe in a lot of things, just not in a god that I should worship.

That is perfectly fine with me. And as I do not think I will call you from the "other side" (in the first place, because I'm not sure of the communication facilities I may find and secondly, assuming there would be any, nobody knows for sure whether you may not leave before I do) my simple message is that pretty soon (I'm, of course, speaking in terms of cosmic time) you will certainly find out by yourself.

Well we all will won't we. :)

Well we all will won't we. :)

Yes, indeed! :D:D

NeedKarma,
I believe in a God I should worship and THAT gives me great joy and happiness that you cannot experience.
There is nothing. NOTHING, that compares with the awesomeness of God.
Only a person who believes in God can know that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Only a person who believes in God can know that.
Sorry Fred you are wrong. How can you tell others they are not happy when they are? That is extremely arrogant. I have the same joy and happiness as you experience if not more, and this is true in millions of people who do not believe in the same god in the same way as you do. I know you want to get into a pissing contest over who is more happy but that's pointless don't you think?

If you met someone you loved, how would you ask for OSE that that person loves you?

Peace.

By their actions of course. I wouldn't let someone treat me badly and take it on faith that they love me would you?

Of course the other difference is I know it is possible to love someone. So I can infer that others can love as well.

However if that same person said that bigfoot stole their socks, it would require more evidence because what they were saying would no longer fit with my existing knowledge. First there is the question if bigfoot even exists and even if bigfoot does exist why would he want their socks.

So in order to have faith in god you have to ask yourself why would big foot steal someone's socks.

NeedKarma,
I'm right BUT you'll never know it because there is no way that you can.
You must experience it to know.
I have.
You have not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
I'm right BUT you'll never know it because there is no way that you can.
You must experience it to know.
I have.
You have not.
Take care
NK


See it doesn't matter which side says it.

NeedKarma,
I believe in a God I should worship and THAT gives me great joy and happiness that you cannot experience.
There is nothing. NOTHING, that compares with the awesomeness of God.
Only a person who believes in God can know that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I do not think Arcura is disputing your happiness or what others may experience. But it is true that HIS JOY AND HAPPINESS IS OF A TYPE AND HAS CERTAIN CHARACTERISTICS ONLY UNDERSTANDABLE BY THOSE WHO SHARE HIS BELIEF, as I do.
This only means that his happiness and joy ARE DIFFERENT to the happines and joy experience by someone who does not believe as he does. He is not saying that his happiness is better than yours. But his assert is that his happiness has one component that you -because of your atheism- cannot imagine. Because believing in GOD as we do
Gives us a kind of peace of mind very difficult to attain without any beliefs.
At the beginning of our Spanish Civil War (1936/1939) I was 11 years old. The 19th of July (when the war started in Barcelona) was a Sunday and I was attending Mass at our parish with my grandmother.
Suddenly, a group of 6 or 7 anarchists stormed into the church with their guns and pistols and went straight to the altar to get hold of the 3 priests that were currently celebrating the Mass.
They took them out into the square by the church and, while all the people remained inside the church not daring to do anything, a few boys like me went out into the street to see what was going to happen.
The priests were standing against the wall of the church with the assassins pointing their guns to them.
The one who commanded the group shouted that if they wanted to save their lives ALL they had to do was to renege of their God and claim aloud it was an invention of the church (which is what some people still say right now).
The 2 younger priests fell down on their knees crying and saying that God was a lie and didn't exist at all.
But the vicar, who was around 40, stretched out his arms as in a cross, smiled at the gunmen, and while saying he forgave them he begged them to shoot him...
Which they did, right away in front of a few horrified persons and us. I never forgot that terrible moment.
Now, the 2 young priests started to run yelling and we never saw them again. Their faith was weak and they were probably thinking of the kind of earthy happiness you are referring to, which is perfectly legitimate, but not good enough to enjoy the other one.
The other one, to which Arcura is referring to, is of course what the Vicar was savouring an enjoying in sweet anticipation. And this is why he was smiling before dying and forgiving his executioners. His Faith was actually telling him that in a few more seconds he would be enjoying a PERFECT HAPPINESS that stands no comparison with anything down here.
The same happiness that made the primitive Christians sing when they were facing the lions at the Roman Circus...
It is not a matter of courage but of FAITH with capital letters.

Mark 11:22-24 22 says: Jesus said to them in reply, "Have faith in God.
Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.

This verse of the Bible is the origin of the adage "Faith move mountains" and it is true to explain what someone can do when he/she REALLY has faith.

And I'm not actually referring only to Christians but to whoever who has TRUE FAITH in something supernatural.

This is the difference between your kind of happiness (perfectly honest and suitable for you) and Arcura's (or mine) which is entirely different because IS NOT BASED ON THE MATERIAL THINGS OF THIS WORLD.

You may, of course, claim that we are daydreamers. And I am even willing to accept that possibility... But boy! I can assure you it is SOME daydreaming..! :):):)

This is the difference between your kind of happiness (perfectly honest and suitable for you) and Arcura's (or mine) which is entirely different because IS NOT BASED ON THE MATERIAL THINGS OF THIS WORLD. No it's not different because my happiness is absolutely not based on material things. How or why would you infer such a thing?

Also please show yelling at me with the all caps. Thanks.

Deep God related euphoria and drug related highs both stimulate the same part of the brain scientists have shown... we all have to get off on something... your God related endomorphine release capabilities are obviously working but Christian based philosophy has still enslaved mankind to be wage slaves and remains the largest causer of wars in the last 2000 years.
The universe and the world are amazing... just God didn't do it.

No it's not different because my happiness is absolutely not based on material things. How or why would you infer such a thing?

Also please show yelling at me with the all caps. Thanks.

Very simple! I’m conjecturing that your happiness is based on material things, because you have told us that you do not believe in supernatural things.
I do not use the term “material” in any derogatory way; but I suppose you mean that your happiness is based on your love to your wife, to your sons, to your family and friends. This type of happiness that I also share like most normal people. You may also feel happy when you walk in the fields and see the beauty that Mother Nature displays before your eyes. I do too! Most sensible people do… But all this happiness is a material happiness for it refers to down-to-earth subjects.
But when you die all this, including your loving ones, will cease to mean a thing to your body… unless you may tell me that you believe you have an immortal soul, in which case you must believe in SOMETHING ELSE, whatever it is!
And if this is so, we may find some coincidental points in our mutual philosophy of life! :eek:
Is that the cap you mean?

Deep God related euphoria and drug related highs both stimulate the same part of the brain scientists have shown....we all have to get off on something...your God related endomorphine release capabilities are obviously working but Christian based philosophy has still enslaved mankind to be wage slaves and remains the largest causer of wars in the last 2000 years.
The universe and the world are amazing...just God didnt do it.

WHATEVER YOU SAY, MY DEAR SCIENTIST, WHATEVER YOU SAY!!!:rolleyes:

I do not use the term “material” in any derogatory way; but I suppose you mean that your happiness is based on your love to your wife, to your sons, to your family and friends. This type of happiness that I also share like most normal people. You may also feel happy when you walk in the fields and see the beauty that Mother Nature displays before your eyes. I do too! Most sensible people do…Yes that's what I mean.
But all this happiness is a material happiness for it refers to down-to-earth subjects. Sorry mate, that makes no sense.You can't start inventing new definitions for words to suit your argument. Yes, I'm all about down-to-earth subjects.


But when you die all this, including your loving ones, will cease to mean a thing to your body… unless you may tell me that you believe you have an immortal soul, in which case you must believe in SOMETHING ELSE, whatever it is! Nope, no immortal soul.

Is that the cap you mean?Yea but why do you feel the need to bold everything now?:confused:

Say for just a moment that religious people are happier than atheists. It's not true but for a moment I'll play along. I'd still rather be an atheist. Why? You might ask. Simple because my happiness is real. What's the difference you say. Let me give you an example say I could remove your brain and upload it to a computer that would fulfil your every desire. The only problem is that once I remove your brain you can't go back to your body. Would you do it? I wouldn't and I bet you wouldn't either. Why because it's not real. Fantasy happiness is not real happiness. The lesson is believing a fantasy to make yourself feel artificially happy isn't a lasting solution. Just as a child has to grow up and stop believing in Santa Clause the human race will also have to grow up and give up it's superstitions.

gromitt82,
Is right.
I enjoy the joy and happiness of my belief in God AND the material things of this world, love of others, of nature, good food and wine, of play and work and good friends.
For me these are God's gifts to the world s He gave Himself
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Cool, then we are the same. :)

NeedKarma.
You say we are the same.
Then that means that you also "I enjoy the joy and happiness of my belief in God"
Right?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Except for that part.
Quit trying to push it on me.

NeedKarma,
I wasn't trying to push it on you.
I was trying to be funny.
It looks like my effort was a flop.
Sorry.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[
Nope, no immortal soul.
Yea but why do you feel the need to bold everything now?:confused:[/QUOTE]

No need at all! I was just following your instructions! :D:o:confused: That's how I feel now

Say for just a moment that religious people are happier than atheists. It's not true but for a moment I'll play along. I'd still rather be an atheist. Why? You might ask. Simple because my happiness is real. What's the difference you say. Let me give you an example say I could remove your brain and upload it to a computer that would fulfil your every desire. The only problem is that once I remove your brain you can't go back to your body. Would you do it? I wouldn't and I bet you wouldn't either. Why because it's not real. Fantasy happiness is not real happiness. The lesson is believing a fantasy to make yourself feel artificially happy isn't a lasting solution. Just as a child has to grow up and stop believing in Santa Clause the human race will also have to grow up and give up it's superstitions.

Honestly to God, I'm not interested in pursueing the subject of happiness any further inasmuch as, obviously, you have a different approach to life than I do.
If your way of thinking makes you feel well, at ease with the rest of mankind and happy, that's fine with me and I wish you can enjoy that satisfaction for as long as you are down here.
But DON'T EXPECT PEOPLE LIKE ME to be convinced by your earthly philosophy for the very simple reason that we WON'T BUY IT. Our so called "superstition" provides US with a state of mind and a especial happiness that as you CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM - for you think they are the consequence of childish superstitions - YOU ARE TOTALLY UNABLE TO JUDGE THEM. HOWEVER, You consider yourself totally sound and mature to the point of judge and criticize others like me WHO WILL NEVER THINK LIKE YOU DO. A bit arrogant on your side, don't you think?
I respect your feelings and your way of thinking EVEN THOUGH I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT!!
JUST BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS WILLING TO LISTEN TO WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY I READ YOUR POST AND TELL YOU, THAT'S FINE WITH ME, BE MY GUEST.
WOULD IT BE ASKING VERY MUCH OF YOUR SOUND MATURITY TO RESPECT MY SUPERSTITIONS AND MY FANTASY HAPPINESS...?

]
But DON'T EXPECT PEOPLE LIKE ME to be convinced by your earthly philosophy for the very simple reason that we WON'T BUY IT.][/B]BUT YET you STARTED THIS thread to CONVINCE PEOPLE that “that there MUST BE a supernatural being” and “Perhaps we should start thinking of how futile our discussions are in front of the awe inspired by GOD, who has created everything that surround us” Who are YOU trying to CONVINCE?

BUT YET you STARTED THIS thread to CONVINCE PEOPLE that “that there MUST BE a supernatural being” and “Perhaps we should start thinking of how futile our discussions are in front of the awe inspired by GOD, who has created everything that surround us” Who are YOU trying to CONVINCE?

This is supposed to be a Christianity Board. Ergo, a board where Christians and/or people who believe in GOD (whatever their religions may be) may feel inclined to comment, debate and/or share their views. These are the people whose "superstitions" help them a lot in living their lives in our beautiful Earth for, whatever their troubles, pains or ailments, they endure them happily (with that phantasy happiness you seem to despise so much) hoping there will soon enough come the moment when they will finally find the answer to their prayers.
In my trips to Asia I always had the chance to speak with lots of people who did not share neither my views nor my religion but whose spirituality was of such caliber that it make me feel envious,
It is for believers that Christianity Boards all over are meant.
Atheists have little to do therein because our language is like Swahili for them and their vain efforts trying to convince us of their own "phantasies", a sheer waste of time..
The people I was trying, therefore, to convince is NOT YOUR KIND OF PEOPLE but people who are receptive and/or interested in finding out some answers as to WHO WE ARE, WHERE DO WE COME FROM AND WHERE ARE WE GOING TO...
Those who are so clever that they think they ALREADY KNOW the answers to these questions and consider US as just poor "superstitious ignorants" who cannot tell day from night, you will surely agree, are pitifully wasting their precious time...
GOD bless you!

This is supposed to be a Christianity Board. Ergo, a board where Christians and/or people who believe in GOD (whatever their religions may be) may feel inclined to comment, debate and/or share their views. Actually this is the Religious Discussions board. There is another Christianity board on the site as well. My views here have as much merit as yours, please don't try to censor me.

WOULD IT BE ASKING VERY MUCH OF YOUR SOUND MATURITY TO RESPECT MY SUPERSTITIONS AND MY FANTASY HAPPINESS..

You have the right to believe in any fantasy you wish. A right that I would never think about taking away. However, you do not have the right to have that fantasy be respected. Would you respect someone who claims to talk to the tooth fairy and wanted to spend your money on projects that involve the tooth fairy or spend time and your money on educating children that tooth fairy is real? Frankly given what is at stake I should really be more forceful in my convictions. So yes it is too much to ask that I respect your superstitions and I will continue exercise my right of free speech to tell everyone that will listen that they are superstitions.

Actually this is the Religious Discussions board. There is another Christianity board on the site as well. My views here have as much merit as yours, please don't try to censor me.


I'm not censoring you. You can spend the rest of your life writing here (in a Religious Discussion Board) despite the fact you are not religious. I was answering your questions as to what people I was addressing to.
Quote:
The people I was trying, therefore, to convince is NOT YOUR KIND OF PEOPLE but people who are receptive and/or interested in finding out some answers as to WHO WE ARE, WHERE DO WE COME FROM AND WHERE ARE WE GOING TO...
Unquote:
I'm not even mentioning you:
Quote:
Those who are so clever that they think they ALREADY KNOW the answers to these questions and consider US as just poor "superstitious ignorants" who cannot tell day from night, you will surely agree, are pitifully wasting their precious time...
GOD bless you!
Unquote:
If you consider yourself within that group is just your own consideration.
GOD bless you

You can spend the rest of your life writing here (in a Religious Discussion Board) despite the fact you are not religious.A lot of people here keep telling me that atheism is a religion so I guess I belong here. There room for both of us! :)

a lot of people here keep telling me that atheism is a religion so i guess i belong here. There room for both of us! :)

great! Keep on writing then! That's fine with me.
But i beg you to stop trying to insult whatever little inteligence i may have by pretending that i'm daydreaming while you are in possession of the absolute truth.

If i am wrong and i don't need you to tell me so. Soon enough i'll find out.
Hope you are willing to accept :dthat the same will happen to you. :d

I never said you were daydreaming nor do I believe I possess the absolute truth. Though I constantly hear that Christians know "the Truth" that I don't appear to know.

gromitt82,
It has always been a mystery to me why atheists are on religious boards.
I often feel that they are here in attempts to change our beliefs to theirs OR they are inwardly (perhaps unknowingly) searching for a spiritual life
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I never said you were daydreaming nor do I believe I possess the absolute truth. Though I constantly hear that Christians know "the Truth" that I don't appear to know.

It is probably because English is not my mother language that I may have misunderstood your comments. I apologize if I have.

As for us Christians claiming that we know "the Truth", we are, of course, referring to Jesus Christ's message to us. We do consider it to be the "Absolute Truth", though we understand others may not agree with us. I must agree that we are not very humble about this assertion, the reason being, perhaps, that this TRUTH comes all the way direct from someone we consider the Son of God. I mean, we are defending a Truth that has been given to us by He Who we consider the Son of God. It is, therefore, a Truth given to us NOT a truth originated in our own minds.
However, I will grant you that we should be more willing to accept criticism from those who feel there may be other truths.
Just as well as we should recognize que, more often than not, in the past, rather than preaching our TRUTH as it had been taught to us by Jesus, we have been trying to impose it rather bloodily... And this is not certainly what Jesus preached...

gromitt82,
It has always been a mystery to me why atheists are on religious boards.
I often feel that they are here in attempts to change our beliefs to theirs OR they are inwardly (perhaps unknowingly) searching for a spiritual life
Peace and kindness,
Fred

This isn't a religious board. It's a place for religious discussion. Religion is interesting to atheists because it's an intriguing phenomenon. Many atheists would love to believe in God. The human desire to have security in knowing what happens when we die, to know where we came from, to know what consciousness is, is a very natural drive that all humans seem to have. We wonder how other people have come to the conclusion that the answer is God, and sure, if you can persuade us with real meaningful evidence, we'd love that.

Many atheists would love to believe in God. I really don't fall into that category. The world is indeed an amazing place without a god required. Boom-de-yada! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0)

I really don't fall into that category. The world is indeed an amazing place without a god required. Boom-de-yada! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0)

I agree, but I mean if there were evidence for a God, surely it would answer a lot of the unknowns?

It would make science a lot easier.

PersonA: Why did such and such occur?
PersonB: because god wanted it that way.
PersonA: Sounds right to me lets go spend the rest of our grant money on beer.

But I've said before I find religion interesting and I probably know more about all of the different types of religoins that 95% of the people out there. It just very interesting how a large group of people get caught up into and believing their cultures fictional stories as true. Even if you say Christianity is the one true religion it still mean 99% of the religions out there are false.

This isn't a religious board. It's a place for religious discussion. Religion is interesting to atheists because it's an intriguing phenomenon. Many atheists would love to believe in God. The human desire to have security in knowing what happens when we die, to know where we came from, to know what consciousness is, is a very natural drive that all humans seem to have. We wonder how other people have come to the conclusion that the answer is God, and sure, if you can pursuade us with real meaningful evidence, we'd love that.

Unfortunately, our only proce is strictly based on Faith. Faith in that GOD created everything and faith in the Jesus (whose wxistence by the way has been historically proven) was the Son of God, and hence God himself who resurrected after the third day.
We cannot prove, of course, but atheists cannot prove the contrary either.

Therefore, I think it is just a matter of believing or not believing. A little bit like Hamlet, i.e. to believe or not believe.

whose wxistence by the way has been historically proven

Ehh not so much. The only evidence for Jesus is the bible. The records at the time don't actually show anyone by that name. Look for third party evidence of his existence and you might be surprised. That's another topic.

Gromitt,
To each their own.
Remember that you are also an un-believer in lots of other stuff. And I'm a believer in a lot of other stuff. We are both believers and un-believers at the same time. :)

Capuchin,
I hope that you do discover ample evidence that there Is a God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
I hope you discover that you can live your life without a god.
Have a great day,
NK

NeedKarma ,
That hope from you to me is a nightmare to my mind and belief.
I hope that you can understand that.
I am pleased that you are happy with your belief, though I disagree with it.
I'm sad, though, that you will some day find out to late that there is a God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'm sad, though, that you will some day find out to late that there is a God.
I'm sad for you too Fred.

NK, how can you say that we don't know how you feel? I myself, was an atheist, then found God, things in my life changed, and I came to know a better meaning to life, more happiness in a way.

However, I don't think that you ever was a christian, or never reached the proper 'level' to get that happiness that I (and others) can feel.

That is why I'm sad for you... You've been given the choice, but you either reject it, or postpone it to an indefinite time.

Yes, I was. I was baptised, went to catholic school, church, and even private boys catholic schools. I most likely have more friends of different religious or non-religious beliefs than you do. The fact that you feel that I can't be happy without being like you says more about you than it does about me. Yes I made a choice and I'm a happy guy. That's the way I'm raising my children too: no bible in this house, I teach them to respect others and respect yourself among other things. Respect is earned as an individual not simply being part as a group. My circle of friends are good people, regardless of whatever faith they choose. Being a christian does not automaticallly make you a good person, we all know that.