If you are not a serious Christian please do not answer this question. If this turns into a religious debate it does not help me with my problem so please don't corrupt this thread.

I was raised in a Christian home and gave my heart to the Lord at a young age. I was raised knowing the dos and don'ts. I used to be super on fire for God. I mean I did everything I could with my church, youth group, even organized events and outreach outside of church. Then I got burnt out. I had a lot of people take advantage of me and my unwillingness to say no to a good cause and I just worked myself too hard. About 5 years after the burn out and I still haven't recovered. Not to mention the fact that I finally had a real relationship in that mix somewhere with a guy I thought loved me and he dropped me flat with no explanation as to why. It took me years to get over that relationship and I'm still dealing with "side effects" from it. As for what's going on now, I don't really know who I am anymore. I believe in God, I love Jesus and I know what he did for me, but I find myself loving him, but not being close to him like I used to be. I want to be a good servant, but I just don't know how anymore. I have a hard time motivating myself to read the Bible and I even find myself questioning my faith at times. I've been fighting this battle for years now. Everyone always looked to me for advice and encouragement and I just kind find it anymore but I don't want them to know how far I've backslidin'.

I've also found myself changing my stance on some things here and there. I was raised ultra conservative. I have decided that some of the things that I was taught I shouldn't do aren't as bad as I originally thought. For example. I was raised not to drink AT ALL. Now I'm thinkin' a glass of wine at dinner or a fruitly little drink on vacation isn't all that bad. Am I compromising or just finding my own way?

Last part of my delimma I promise! My boyfriend is not a Christian. Its not that he's an atheist or anything he just doesn't understand faith in Christ. He was not raised in a Christian home and these things just don't make sense to him. I'm not pushing him , but I do invite him to church and church functions and I don't hide the fact that I am a Christian. I do however believe that I'm not the best example for him to learn from. But I love him (although I haven't been able to tell him yet) I believe that God brought the two of us together because the circumstances around us even meeting were so awesome. More to this situation though. The bad relationship from earlier, I keep letting that effect the way I think. Its like my brain won't stop thinking. I analyze everything he does and assume that it's a sign that he's losing interest or fear that he's going to dump me. I can't stop no matter how hard I try. He hasn't done anything that a normal person would see as a sign of a break up, but I'm so scarred from this last guy, that I worry constantly about him leaving me. I worry so much that I can't enjoy the relationship.

As you can see I seem to be totally screwed up. So please give me some advice!!

We all lose our way sometimes because we are human. It is important to take care of yourself so that you can be strong in your faith. Overextending yourself doesn't do anyone any good - as you have found out.
You do not have to believe everything you were taught as a child. You need to take this information and make educated decisions about your personal relationship with God. Your teachers are also human.
Now might be a good time for you visit other churches in your community. Perhaps you will find one that feels like a better fit for you. Be open with your boyfriend about your confusion with your faith and your desire to renew it. Invite him to search with you. Perhaps he will be more interested if he sees it as something you are building together - not him joining you in your church with your family and friends.
As for your past relationship effecting your relationship with him... Do not punish him for what someone else did to you. Let your past be a lesson of caution, but do not let it keep you from living your life.

One of the worst mistakes too many christians do is not just living their faith and allowing them to use the talents God gave them, but they feel they have to do everything and take care of everybody, it can not happen.

Next I am not saying this is the case but every blessing or what we feel is a blessing is not always from God, it sometimes is a distraction. For example a pastor may get a offer for a large church, he takes it since God is giving it to him, while in fact God had wanted him to take the small church that could not pay a full time salary since that was where he was needed.

But the other is forgivenss, we have to learn to forgive others and not try to drag the past with us,

I think we all feel insecure in our walk with god sometimes. I believe god leads us even when we don't expect it. God's knowledge is complete, and the things he wants to teach us may span years. I would say give it some time, and keep repenting of anything you feel is a sin. Also, remember,
Mar 7:15 there is nothing from without the man, that going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are those that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 [If any man hath ears to hear, let him hear.]
Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the multitude, his disciples asked of him the parable.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Perceive ye not, that whatsoever from without goeth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? [This he said], making all meats clean.
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which proceedeth out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22 covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.

So you can see that it's really about your inner life with god that's important.

To really draw close to God we need to be genuine when we pray and ask for guidance and direction. This brings true intimacy with you and your grand creator, who loves you and wants to be close to you. But we have to make the effort.
To not really want to read deeply into his word is telling God that you can't really be bothered getting to know him properly. Just appearing to be christian on the outside is a far cry from truly following Jesus footsteps. It's certainly not easy being a true christian, but with the effort comes rich blessings and a wonderful reward at the end.

Ask yourself first how serious you really are about walking down that right path.
Then if you still think you're prepared to make necessary adjustments in your life, pray about it and ask for God's holy spirit to guide you and help walk the true path.
Don't just leave it at that. You need to take action in order to exercise faith in God (John 3:16), so start reading and taking in knowledge of him (John 17:3) and try to apply fully what you learn.

Drinking is not an offense to christians but it's the becoming intoxicated that is a sin (1 Cor 9:10; Gal 5:19-24; Prov 20:1).

2 Cor 6:14 warns us that becoming involved with someone who doesn't share our beliefs can lead to disaster. It is your life but God wants you to enjoy it and be safe not only from harming ourselves but also from what Satan can do to harm us. The only way we can keep Satan at bay is by drawing close to God and keeping ourselves in his love.

I love this scripture Tadita in 2 Tim 3:16 - "ALL scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching and reproving and setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness."

May the path you take from now on truly set things straight for you. :)

You need to understand that every child of God will be tested, no one is exempt. Let me share a few scriptures with you that I have found helpful through many years. You WILL be tempted but:
1 Cor 10:13
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
(KJV)

Jesus is faithful to us. Listen to what the Apostle Paul said here:
2 Tim 1:12
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
(KJV)

Paul had committed himself, body and soul to Jesus and he was confident that Jesus would never let him down, and Jesus will not let you down either. This scripture is the first one I committed to memory and it has helped me many times in time of stress.

Jesus forgives all kinds of sin, and believers sometimes need thaf forgiveness. When we do sin, Jesus is our lawyer at the bar of Heaven.
I Jn 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(KJV)

Jesus died for you and me nearly 2,000 years ago, but what has He done for us lately? He is praying for us! Rejoice in knowing that He knows how to get His prayers answered.
Rom 8:34
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
(KJV)

No one, not even Satan has any right to condemn us. What wonderful news!

Do you have a friend who is a strong Christian? If so, ask them to pray with you. You don't need to tell any details, just say that you are going throug a difficult time.

And finally, remember that the "secret" of living a successful Christian life is to get up just one more time than you get knocked down.

You have my prayers.

If you are not a serious Christian please do not answer this question. If this turns into a religious debate it does not help me with my problem so please don't corrupt this thread.

Ok.


I was raised in a Christian home and gave my heart to the Lord at a young age. I was raised knowing the dos and don'ts. I used to be super on fire for God. I mean I did everything I could with my church, youth group, even organized events and outreach outside of church. Then I got burnt out. I had a lot of people take advantage of me and my unwillingness to say no to a good cause and I just worked myself too hard. About 5 years after the burn out and I still haven't recovered. Not to mention the fact that I finally had a real relationship in that mix somewhere with a guy I thought loved me and he dropped me flat with no explanation as to why. It took me years to get over that relationship and I'm still dealing with "side effects" from it. As for what's going on now, I don't really know who I am anymore. I believe in God, I love Jesus and I know what he did for me, but I find myself loving him, but not being close to him like I used to be. I want to be a good servant, but I just don't know how anymore. I have a hard time motivating myself to read the Bible and I even find myself questioning my faith at times. I've been fighting this battle for years now. Everyone always looked to me for advice and encouragement and I just kind find it anymore but I don't want them to know how far I've backslidin'.


You might want to read about the Purgative way.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: State Or Way (Purgative, Illuminative, Unitive) (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm)

Essentially, what a study of the Saints has revealed is that when we are converted to God, we seem to go through a honeymoon stage which many call being "on fire".

At that time, loving God and doing His will is easy. But there comes a time when God seems to hide from us. At that time, doing His will becomes a chore. But this is when we obtain more graces. Its easy to roll down hill. But when we have to struggle to remain united to God, that is when we reveal our true love for Him.

You are perhaps going through this stage in your life, when it doesn't come easy to love God. But, if you hang in there, God will reward you:
Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.


I've also found myself changing my stance on some things here and there. I was raised ultra conservative. I have decided that some of the things that I was taught I shouldn't do aren't as bad as I originally thought. For example. I was raised not to drink AT ALL. Now I'm thinkin' a glass of wine at dinner or a fruitly little drink on vacation isn't all that bad. Am I compromising or just finding my own way?

Last part of my delimma I promise! My boyfriend is not a Christian. Its not that he's an atheist or anything he just doesn't understand faith in Christ. He was not raised in a Christian home and these things just don't make sense to him. I'm not pushing him , but I do invite him to church and church functions and I don't hide the fact that I am a Christian. I do however believe that I'm not the best example for him to learn from. But I love him (although I haven't been able to tell him yet) I believe that God brought the two of us together because the circumstances around us even meeting were so awesome. More to this situation though. The bad relationship from earlier, I keep letting that effect the way I think. Its like my brain won't stop thinking. I analyze everything he does and assume that it's a sign that he's losing interest or fear that he's going to dump me. I can't stop no matter how hard I try. He hasn't done anything that a normal person would see as a sign of a break up, but I'm so scarred from this last guy, that I worry constantly about him leaving me. I worry so much that I can't enjoy the relationship.

As you can see I seem to be totally screwed up. So please give me some advice!!

As St. Paul said:

Ephesians 5 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.

Although he is still your boyfriend and as yet not your husband, a relationship of love with a man has the same dynamics as a relationship of love with Jesus Christ.

At first, it is easy to love. But then, after many dates and the familiar becomes, shall we say it, boring. It then becomes an act of will to continue to love. It is at this point that faith kicks in. Faith in each other. Not blind faith. But faith which is earned. Is he there when he says he'll be there? Does he provide what he says he'll provide? Is he caring? Etc. These are questions you must answer for yourself. Because you need evidence to build faith that he will be as loving after the marriage as he is before. Because no matter what anyone says, faith alone is dead. No one wants empty words and promises.

And these are questions that he must answer for himself about you as well. He also needs evidence of your love and faith. Do you keep your promises? Can he have faith that you will be as loving after the marriage as you are before?

In the end, each of you must WILL to love each other the way that you love the Lord. Better, if you can love each other the way that the Lord loves the Church. He died on the Cross to save Her.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Don't label yourself as "all screwed up" that is a total exaggeration! You are a woman of character with needs who is in a situation that has her emotions up! A normal experience in the life of a woman. :) You want to have a man/husband; the problem is that he is not your idea of a good Christian man... in fact he has no faith. Secondly, and really most important to you, you worry about what might happen if you love him and he leaves you like your first boyfriend. That is very, very painful.

I am reminded of a famous quote from, I forget who!.
"Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all".

I had to answer because I'm happy for you. :) Don't plan too far ahead in your imagination. LIve one day at a time if you decide to continue with this man. :)

Let me just introduce myself as a Roman Catholic. I was raised in a Christian home too but the avatars of life sort of quenched my initial devotion. I was very busy trying to succeed in life to pay much attention to my eventual success (much more important) in my other life. Gradually, I became what I would define as one of the many indifferent Catholics that can be found in those countries where allegedly everyone is supposed to be a born Catholic. I'm Spanish. That may clarify what I'm saying.
When I retired, though, I think Jesus sort of enlighten me again and ever since, I am intently trying to make up for all these past years with the hope I will be able to square my accounts –which are in the red- with GOD.
This is just to explain that Faith is a very delicate flower, that is exposed to all kinds of weather harshness and, consequently, needs constant attention to avoid its withering.

Backsliding is very common, unfortunately, when we lose sight of the truly important facts of life, which is not difficult bearing in mind the materialist world we are all living in.

I do not know what Christian denomination were you raised into. But I do not think you are compromising by having a glass of wine or a fruitly little drink every now and then. At least, not from my Catholic point of view.

I must say that some tool that has helped me a lot into redirect my life is to read everyday's Gospel with a short commentary included. I have found this web: Contemplating today's Gospel - Gospel catholic homilies (http://www.evangeli.net/gospel/gospel.html) where you can subscribe for free, and receive it by e-mail, every day, in English.
I do not think it matters whether you are not Catholic for, after all, the Gospels are the same for ALL denominations, aren't they?

As for the last part of your dilemma just remember that Jesus died in the Cross for ALL mankind. And please stop worrying that he may eventually drop you. It does not necessarily follow that what happened once has to happen again. Show him that you love him and, more often than not, this may work out extremely well.

You are not “totally screwed up”. Just a little confused, perhaps. But who is not these days?

tadita83 -

I'm not sure if there is any interest left in this thread but I did want to try to encourage you with some thoughts.

It seems like your experience in your walk is really not uncommon at all. All serious-minded believers go through a "honey-moon stage" as another has put it... we love our new found joy at the thought of God forgiving us of our sins and experiencing a true transformation of our minds and hearts. But as time goes on, something happens.

Over the past few years, I have personally come face to face with something in the bible that was not immediately clear to me when I became a believer. That is, that God intends to try our faith... to test it, not because He needs proof that it's authentic but because we need proof that it's authentic in a subjective way. Let me explain.

James says in Ch 1 of his letter, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." What I understand James to be saying here is that we will face trials in our lives and when we do, we are to count it all joy when we face them. What is he saying?

The idea of all New Testament writers on this subject is that when a person believes that Jesus Christ is Lord, that initial faith, although real and authentic, is a very immature faith. God's desire is to mature our faith so that when we are tested, we see that our commitment to God is real and lasting, not a fleeting thing that happened at a point in time and that was it. The idea of "lacking in nothing" as James puts it means not lacking in faith. It is a faith that has been tested and after being tested that faith has been found to be the real deal.

Here's an example from Scripture. When Abraham was promised a son, he waited on that promise for almost his whole life. God had said he would give him a son through whom all the nations of the world would be blessed. Then God gave him Isaac. Years later God asked Abraham to take his son, whom he loved, and kill him. What we fail to appreciate is the anguish in Abraham's soul at this request. He might have thought "anything God, but this; please not my son." But you see, Abraham pushed through that anguish and as Hebrews says, "he reckoned that God was able to raise Isaac from the dead." It was when Abraham decided in this that his faith in God became really mature and was perfected... or made complete. Abraham's faith had become a faith full of the kind of commitment that resonates with a soul-stirring strength. For Abraham, there was no turning back.

What does this mean for you, tadita? I don't know the ways in which God chooses to work in all of our lives but if the bible is any indication, God is very active is this process. Perhaps what you needed most was a scenario in which who you are and what you really want in this life was forced out into the open. God uses all of the things in our lives to bring about good, according to His purposes, to those who He has called. If you love God, keep pursuing Him and if you find in your life that you keep coming back to the truth and you cannot escape Him and your heartfelt commitment to Him, then reckon yourself to be one of His. We ought to take heart in the fact that "He who has begun a good work in you will finish it upon the day of Jesus Christ." You may not always know what you should do but trying your best to obey God and walk in what you know and understand is where it's at. Don't despair but trust that God is bringing us through this process of life and shaping us for the life that is to come.

tadita83
All I can think about is just one word. ''RESET''!!
You wrote ''I worry so much that I can't enjoy the relationship.'' meaning the relationship with your boyfriend but I think that is also the problem about your relationship with Jesus.
Keep it simple!

Oswald Chambers' "My Utmost For His Highest": November 2nd. (http://www.myutmost.org/11/1102.html)


The Lord does not give me rules, He makes His standard very clear, and if my relationship to Him is that of love, I will do what He says without any hesitation. If I hesitate, it is because I love some one else in competition with Him...







Oswald Chambers' "My Utmost For His Highest": October 31st. (http://www.myutmost.org/10/1031.html)

God wants you to understand that it is a life of faith, not a life of sentimental enjoyment of His blessings. Your earlier life of faith was narrow and intense, settled around a little sun-spot of experience that had as much of sense as of faith in it, full of light and sweetness; then God withdrew His conscious blessings in order to teach you to walk by faith. You are worth far more to Him now than you were in your days of conscious delight and thrilling testimony.






Know this - God is the father waiting to celebrate the prodigal - Never will He leave or forsake you.

In your 4th paragraph, you seem overly concerned with your boyfriend - I think if you concentrate on your relationship with Christ first, things will work out.

Hi. I did notice that you made much mention of the trials and tribulations in your life, but no mention of your current relationship with Jesus. May I suggest getting on your knees and finding Him again? When we get to the end of ourselves, that's where He is waiting to catch us. As long as we "try" to be christians without allowing His Holy Spirit access to our daily lives, we will fail. We cannot, for we were not made to, live the Christian life without the help of the Helper. We were made to breathe Him in, live in Him and love in Him. We cannot be complete without this vital relationship in place. Christianity any other way is religion--man's attempt at getting to God. True religion--Christianity as Jesus taught--is through His Holy Spirit, by God's grace.

Tadita82,
So far you have received some excellent advice from several folks here.
I just have one thing to add. It is a question.
Have you forgiven that guy who dumped you?
I suspect not.
It is important that you do so.
To forgive others is a blessing for it dumps the burden and regrets from you mind and soul.
Remember that God forgives us AS WE forgive others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tadita82,
As stated previously you've received some great Biblical and loving advice. There is something that I would like to address that hasn't really been tackled in depth. There's a reason why the Bible says we are not to be "unequally yoked together" with unbelievers.

I, too, was raised in an ultra-conservative denomination, was saved at 5, served the Lord, but when I was in my early 20's I drifted away (because of associating with unbelievers). During that time I married a man who "got saved" after I told him I wouldn't marry a non-believer. His "salvation" lasted no longer than it took the ink to dry on the marriage certificate. The marriage ended after 4 years when he "fell in love" with a married co-worker.

The only good thing about the marriage is that I cam back fully to the Lord. However what followed was a number of years where I didn't "feel" close to the Lord. Times I would stumble, ask forgiveness and then go on.

Eventually I remarried, again to a man who claimed to be a Christian. I quickly learned otherwise. It was a rough 7 years.

Believe me, the only way to avoid marrying a non-believer is to stand your ground and determine not to waste time even dating a non-believer. For one thing, when it comes to spiritual things you have nothing to discuss. Even if he gets saved, without some time to concentrate on the Lord and the Word, he'll have a tough time being the spiritual leader of the relationship.

At 51 and slightly overweight, some men think I should be grateful for any attention. I very quickly (but gently) let them know that unless they are 100% sold out to Jesus Christ and a mature believer, then we really have nothing in common.

Just some words from a "been there done that" and don't want to repeat it.

clhend,
Thanks for sharing your story with us.
I hope we learn from it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

tadita82,
As stated previously you've received some great Biblical and loving advice. There is something that I would like to address that hasn't really been tackled in depth. There's a reason why the Bible says we are not to be "unequally yoked together" with unbelievers.

I, too, was raised in an ultra-conservative denomination, was saved at 5, served the Lord, but when I was in my early 20's I drifted away (because of associating with unbelievers). During that time I married a man who "got saved" after I told him I wouldn't marry a non-believer. His "salvation" lasted no longer than it took the ink to dry on the marriage certificate. The marriage ended after 4 years when he "fell in love" with a married co-worker.

The only good thing about the marriage is that I cam back fully to the Lord. However what followed was a number of years where I didn't "feel" close to the Lord. Times I would stumble, ask forgiveness and then go on.

Eventually I remarried, again to a man who claimed to be a Christian. I quickly learned otherwise. It was a rough 7 years.

Believe me, the only way to avoid marrying a non-believer is to stand your ground and determine not to waste time even dating a non-believer. For one thing, when it comes to spiritual things you have nothing to discuss. Even if he gets saved, without some time to concentrate on the Lord and the Word, he'll have a tough time being the spiritual leader of the relationship.

At 51 and slightly overweight, some men think I should be grateful for any attention. I very quickly (but gently) let them know that unless they are 100% sold out to Jesus Christ and a mature believer, then we really have nothing in common.

Just some words from a "been there done that" and don't want to repeat it.


Thanks for a very sobering and instructing story and my personal congratulations (whatever that may mean to you) for knowing quite clearly the way to follow to get "There", where we ALL want to get...

If even one person learns from what I've gone through, then it was worth it. If one young woman realizes that this life here is less than a blip on the radar of time, yet eternity will be... just that: forever.

If she realizes that only by being absolutely focused on Jesus Christ will she ever have true happiness, then sharing my story is worth it.

Then when the Lord brings a mate into her life, that that union will be blessed of God. That doesn't mean they won't have problems, we live in a sinful world. But if they make the Lord the center of their relationship, then it won't end in divorce. There won't be mistreatment. Each will fulfill his or her role in the relationship.

clhend,
I really like your attitude.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I too have often felt less on fire then I have been at times. I would say that you need to take a less demanding role in your church. Take yourself out of any administrative position and out of the "office" part of church events. You should try to just be one of the participants for awhile again so you can focus on the meaning instead of the amount of seating, etc. Maybe you should go to a convention or camp (depending on your age) Or like a retreat or something to help you get away from everyday life and refocus. Maybe you need to find a new church that worships in a way that you find more exciting with a pastor who speaks more "your language" Also try speaking to your current pastor or other church person about your concerns and get the support of the clergy behind you. I too find it hard to sit and read the bible or pray or do other Christian activities. Set aside a specific time frame for you to read every day or once a week or whatever you feel comfortable with. Then make yourself sit and read or pray for that time every time. Even if it is just five minutes on your way to work on Monday mornings that you have a conversation with God. Or the ten minutes after you get home on Thursdays before your favorite show comes on. Just to dedicate yourself and committ yourself to getting back on track. After awhile it will become fun again.
The bible teaches that we shouldn't be with a non-believer. That is for you to decide what to do with. You know what the bible teaches but you can decide how strictly to "abide" by that. It does bring about compications not only in your faith but also in the relationship because there are things you simply won't ever agree on based on religious views. No one can tell you what you should do about that. As long as he doesn't stop you from worshiping and doesn't condemn you for doing so then I think it is OK but be aware of the compications that will inevitably arise.
AS far as the drinking and what not... I think you are just finding your own way. The bible does not tell you not to drink... it does say not to get drunk but I feel that when you are reading the entire context of that part it is not saying that getting drunk one Friday night is sinful but rather giving into alcoholism is sinful. Again that is for you to interpret as well as to discuss with a trusted church advisor from your place of worship. Again... I feel you are just finding your own way. I had a friend whose famiy very strictly did not visit any business on Sundays as they felt it was not right to make someone else work on the day of rest. Now as a young adult she carried that tradition for awhile but has since made up her own mind about that situation and will occasionally do those things on Sundays. This does not make her a sinner... just makes her an educated adult who doesn't feel as though there is anything wrong with this in today's culture. I hope you find your fire again cause it is awesome when your soul burns for God. Don't wait too long to talk to someone from your church. The ember taken out of the fire will soon burn out but place it back in the fireplace and it will soon ignite and erupt back into flames!

The bible teaches that we shouldn't be with a non-believer. That is for you to decide what to do with. You know what the bible teaches but you can decide how strictly to "abide" by that...

The only response I can make to this is: this is the same argument that the serpent used with Eve in the Garden. "Sure God said that you'll die if you eat of the Tree, but He didn't really mean that."

If the Bible is God's Word, then we either live by it or we don't. And if we choose NOT to live by the Word, then why be followers of Jesus Christ?


No one can tell you what you should do about that. As long as he doesn't stop you from worshiping and doesn't condemn you for doing so then I think it is ok but be aware of the compications that will inevitably arise.

When you get married you just naturally want to please your mate. An unbelieving spouse may not stop you from worshipping, but all too often, plans will be made or arguments initiated that ultimately interfer with the believing spouses freedom to attend church or to concentrate on the service.

There are just too many situations that arise in a marriage that require a commitment of faith to believing that God has everything under control. The Bible says "where two agree as touching any one thing...". An unbelieving spouse will never be able to "agree" when it comes to a matter of faith. Thus when problems arise such as a sick child, financial difficulty, major decisions there is no agreement in prayer.


The bible does not tell you not to drink...it does say not to get drunk but I feel that when you are reading the entire context of that part it is not saying that getting drunk one friday night is sinful but rather giving into alcoholism is sinful.

The problem with getting drunk on Friday night is that when inhibitions are loosened by liquor bad, BAD decisions often result. Very seldom does a young adult stay at home and guietly get drunk. Instead they go to places where drinking and drunkenness is promoted.

A Christian who is serious about her relationship with Jesus Christ should NEVER find herself in bars. I speak from experience. I can tell you that the "friends" that you make in a bar, are only your friends as long as you are going to the bar. When you stop going to the bar and getting drunk on Friday nights you are no longer friends.

Getting drunk in that atmosphere too often results in sexual sin. Those places are really just watering holes where the predator and prey gather to drink. The unwitting "good Christian girl" is seen as a challenge. She will be pursued, flattered and deceived all in an attempt to seduce her. Getting drunk on Friday night will result in decisions that, in this day and age, could result in the loss of her life.

The Bible says we have to be either hot or cold. If we're going to be lukewarm, God Himself will SPIT us out! Compromise is a deceptive trick promoted by the Father of Lies, Satan himself. God is a Holy God and will not accept compromise. Sadly that's one of the problems with the Church today. We've compromised with the World to the point that there's really no difference between the sinner and the "saint".

kraussnumber2,
That is some good well thot out advice.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks Fred!

In response to clhend I definitely do not disagree with your "challenges" on my points. I feel your points are also ultra conservative. There is nothing wrong with that but I feel she already knows all this as this is how she was raised. The bible also teaches that we shouldn't have tattoos or eat certain animals that almost all of us eat. It also teaches that women are unclean while on their cycle and that certain measure are to be taken to cleanse themselves afterwards and their husbands shouldn't even touch their wife while she is on her cycle. I wonder if you adhere to these rules clhend? Im not trying to start a debate or anger anyone... Im just trying to prove the point that no one lives strictly within the laws of the bible and that does not make them bad. Truth is we are all sinners, we all fall short, and we all deserve to die but through the grace of God we are forgiven. This is the way I was taught. It is not fair to expect some to be perfect.
On the issue of drinking... you do not have to go to a bar... by yourself and get trashed to drink on a Friday night. You can go over to a friends house that is having a party. Or you can go to a bar with friends... you don't have to go alone and make friends. You should go with trusted friends and your boyfriend and that way you will be safe. And probably more like a club where you can dance and just have fun... I personnally don't see a point in going and sitting at a bar drinking by yourself to make friends. I would agree that most people that you make friends with at a bar aren't going to be the best friends... that is why you should go with your current friends who you trust to stay safe. And that way they will still be your friends even if you aren't going to bars anymore.
I agree with clhend that it will cause problems in the long run with having a partner who doesn't share your views on religion. I stated that in my first post. I however feel that even with couples who do believe the same things still have these issues. One partner will always be a stronger Christian then the other and one will always want to fix things themselves as opposed to looking to God for help. But I would definitely encourage your boyfriend to go with you to church and other activities so that he can hopefully find his faith. Don't make him an ultimatum... it can never be "become a Christian or lose me" this won't work. Even if he says OK I believe in God and I am a Christian it doesn't change anything unless he really means it. You need to make a decision to yourself that if you feel you can't be with a nonbeliever that you will "secretly" give him a set amount of time to figure it all out or you will break it off. And then in the time express to him how important it is to you and continueally invite him to come along. Hopefully he will find his faith. And seeing you be "on fire" will really encourage him to want to feel the same way.
I guess my take on religion is a little less conservative. I feel you should read the bible and decide what you think it is saying. Not to the extent of thinking the bible is saying to go out and kill all americans as some people "read" it but just in the sense that you know what is right and wrong and you know that you are to ultimately do good as opposed to wrong. Read it and listen to what God is telling you. God will put it on your heart that something is good or bad. If you feel a guilt about certain things then you can assume that God is telling you that it is wrong. Or is you are apprehensive about doing something you probably shouldn't be doing it. And again it would be a good idea to talk to someone at your church that can help you decipher what your church teaches and how they feel about all the issues you have spoken about. And if all else fails just pray about it. God will lead you right!

Just to settle this so neither of you will feel likeyou are leading me astray. I wouldn't go out and get drunk, I'm saying having a drink that you enjoy not for getting drunk from it, but you enjoy drinking it, it tastes good.

I think both of you (clhend and kraussnumber2) have given me wonderful advice and I can tell that you feel very strongly about it. I don't want this to end in an argument or bad feelings.

I do want to give you an update:

I have started slowly getting back into reading my Bible and enjoying it. Mostly because of the issues with my boyfriend. I feel like I need to cling to the only steady thing in my life and my boyfriend is not it. I feel like we've been drifting away for some unexplained reason. All those fears about him leaving me, I don't think they were unwarranted, except now its leaning more towards me leaving him. He rarely calls me, we rarely hang out and when I confront him about it he gets mad (although he says he's not mad he is) and basically says that I am asking too much. Where it stands now. I haven't talked to him in 4 days straight and I have decided that I'm going to see just how much he does care about me. If he cares then he'll miss me, if he misses me, he'll call. If not then I guess we aren't supposed to be together.

Anyway because of this trial, I have HAD to lean on God to get me through it. Every time I feel the urge to give in and call him, or when I start feeling down. I turn up my music and start singing. I used to sing all the time in church, and nothing filled me with the spirit more than when I would sing. I've finally found that spirit again and I'm loving it. I'm still sad and a bit depressed about what's going on with my boyfriend. I love him, and I miss him, but because of God I can survive. It's not going to be easy or fun, but I will survive. And this time (unlike the last break up) I'm not going to blame God and run and hide. I realize now that I need to do the opposite. I need to cling to Him because he will get me through it unharmed.

Glad to hear that you are finding your way! There is a saying that I like that I think you will appreciate...
A woman should be so lost in God that a man will have to seek Him to find her!
Hope things work out for you in whatever way they need to work out.

...A woman should be so lost in God that a man will have to seek Him to find her!

Love that answer!

No fight, no upset. I'm glad you are seeking the Lord.

I'm sure I came across as uncompromising, but that's only because I compromised. How different my life would have been if I'd done like you are doing and cling to the Lord in the midst of heartbreak.

Remember: Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and ALL these things (including love) will be added to your life.

God bless

tadita83,
Thanks much for the update.
I think you are on the right track.
O understand about your singing.
St. John of the Cross (I think it was) said, "When one sings in worship one prays twice." or words to the effect.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If even one person learns from what I've gone through, then it was worth it. If one young woman realizes that this life here is less than a blip on the radar of time, yet eternity will be...just that: forever.

If she realizes that only by being absolutely focused on Jesus Christ will she ever have true happiness, then sharing my story is worth it.

Then when the Lord brings a mate into her life, that that union will be blessed of God. That doesn't mean they won't have problems, we live in a sinful world. But if they make the Lord the center of their relationship, then it won't end in divorce. There won't be mistreatment. Each will fulfill his or her role in the relationship.

You have just hit the basic condition. To make the Good Lord the Center of our life, the center of any relationship of any married couple. My wife and I have survived throughout 58 years of marriage and 5 of courtship (the old way) "through fair and stormy weather", as the song goes. We have been through Hurricanes and Tsunamis of all types, mostly fault of mine! But we are still in love and we hope to reach in 2010 our diamond wedding, if we are still here.
And every day I'm more convinced that, somehow, this has been possible because from the very beginning we tried to put God in the center of our lives.
So it was God who gave her the necessary strength to overcome my many failures and impertinences and it was God we also gave me strength to resolve my faulty behaviour when needed!
And with God's help we have managed to grow a wonderful family, which right now, already numbers 20!!

gromitt82,
Good for you!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82,
Good for you!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks a lot!

gromitt82,
My pleasure.
God bless you much.
Fred

The main problem I see with being with someone that is not a Christian is are they holding you back from what you feel God wants you to do? Are they dragging you down in your faith?
Are they doing things that in your spirit you have a negative feeling about?
God forgives and God sees and knows your heart. Actually I believe that the Christian that 'screws up' has valuable lessons and an understanding that many more pious Church goers have.
Really read the story of the prodigal son.

N0help4u,
That is good advice,
Fred

Speaking as a child who was also raised in the church...
I, too was raised in the church. At my late teens, I stopped going. I was gung ho for christ much the same way you were. But I stopped. I backslid for quite some time. In the process, I got married. Different story. Anyway. I know that if you were raised in the church, that the seed of God remains in you. That was planted at an early age. Now, at this age, it's no longer what you do, but why you do it. One good example.
I had a friend who received Jesus as her Lord and Savior. She had piercings everywhere and the church told her to take them all out; that she did not look moderate like a woman of God should. She asked me what I thought. I told her not to take them out. BECAUSE the same God who saved her could teach her how to dress. If the piercings did not offend her, then neither could I! I advised her to pray and seek God for his will for her life. And listen when he speaks to her spirit.

No one has room to judge you. In fact no one knows why you are going through what you're going through. I do know that this experience will be a testimony one day to someone who will need to hear of God redeeming power. Maybe you should evaluate your life. Not what you're doing, but why. Why do we love God? Because he first loved us. That's scripture. If you want to return to Jesus and renew the relationship, he's certainly not going to turn you away. Just have the right reason for serving him, so that when all else fails, your relationship with Jesus won't.

splittin
Good advice.
Fred

I was raised the same way, very strict Christian upbringing and I struggled for many years leaving the church, coming back to the church, trying new churches, new demoniations. Over time I've come understand the different church beliefs but have tried to narrow down the important ones into my life and drinking is not one of them. We are here on this earth to love, share and experience God's wonderful unconditional love.

I was in your shoes in terms of relationships with someone who was not a believer. What I think got me through all those relationships and eventually lead to finding my husand (who is Christian) is that I always prayed to God that His Will Be Done in my Life. Sometimes, especially with relationships we don't want to hear what God might be telling us whether it's our conscious telling us, circumstances changine, etc... but I believe deep down inside you have an idea of what you should do.

There is a reason why you are questioning your relationship. I personally believe that you should not be with someone who is not a believer. It's hard enough being in a marriage and having a man that has your same faith makes the world of difference. You want a man that looks to God for his guidance and not the world. He will also understand God's grace and unconditional love in a way that non-believers are unable to understand and share.

The bible does talk about being unevenly yoke. Maybe there are some books out there of women's relationships with non-believers and that they went through.

So what I say is pray and make the tough choices when you feel at peace about where God is guiding you. I try to never make decisions until I have the peace of God.

Pray for God's Will in your Life and He will open and close the doors that need to be. He will also not give us anything that we can't handle, so if you do end up breaking up He will be there through the pain and through the healing. Remember, God wants to give us our hearts desire and many times we are the ones blocking it. His heart is to give you the man of your dreams, for you to be loved and cherished until your last day.

I hope this helps.

First of all: when we first become born again christians, it is so new to us. We feel so good and strive to do all we can for the Lord. This isn't unusual. We are baby christians feeding on the milk. After we mature, we have to get to the meat and potatoes so to speak. This takes diligence. We never walk everyday without making mistakes and we cannot settle up any accounts. The key is to ask God/Jesus to forgive us and when we do His word says He remembers it no more, it is cast into the deepest sea and put as far away as the east is to the west. His mercies are new every morning. If we keep going back and asking forgiveness for the same thing, He doesn't remember it. Jesus completed our salvation on the cross, but don't leave Him there. He now sits on the right hand of God making intersession for us. Sometimes, churches make man made laws to live by, I don't believe this is Gods intention. Live by His laws under grace. Try to do your best that is all He asks. As far as your boyfriend, only you can make that decision. Remember, first and foremost, God will send to you the right person to create two perfect halves. Sometimes, totally and complete opposites. Each to complete the other. My husband and I started pretty rocky. Neither of us were saved. His family did attend church, mine did not. He insisted that we would go to church. I got saved first and then he did. Looking back I can see the hand of God at work. That is what it will be like when you find the right person. You will look back and see what God has done.

uvware,
Wonderful advice you gave.
Thanks for sharing your story.
I'm happy that things worked out well for you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Thank you all for your advice! I just wanted to update you on the situation. I have since broken up with this guy. He did not treat me the way I felt I should be treated and I think a lot of that has to do with him not being a Christian. The bible says that husbands (although he was not my husband, but even still the guy in the relationship) should love their wives as Christ loves the church. So I guess it was insane of me to expect him to love me in that way when he did not understand the love of God.

I'm still a little heart broken about the whole thing for several reasons. ONe the obvious, I loved this man, and still do even though I'm the one who did the dumping. Two, I feel like I have failed him. I didn't do enough to share the love of God with him. Now I feel like his soul is on my conscience. I had the opportunity and I didn't take it. So all of you out there that have been giving advice and praying for me, please pray for him because he needs to know Christ. I just wish that he could know what real love is. I tried to show him unconditional love, but my love pales in comparison to the love of God of which he has never known. So please everyone, pray for him. Only God can reach him!

tadita83,
I THINK that you did the right thing.
I can understand that you still love him, but it is not your fault that he is not a Christian.
You still can put the Holy Spirit to work to help him eve tually see the ligh of Christianity via praying for him a lot.
If fact that is a great way for you to express that love of the guy, though God's love.
Much good luck and a prayer for a full loving life in the near future,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you all for your advice! I just wanted to update you on the situation. I have since broken up with this guy. He did not treat me the way i felt I should be treated and I think a lot of that has to do with him not being a Christian. The bible says that husbands (although he was not my husband, but even still the guy in the relationship) should love their wives as Christ loves the church. So I guess it was insane of me to expect him to love me in that way when he did not understand the love of God.

I'm still a little heart broken about the whole thing for several reasons. ONe the obvious, i loved this man, and still do even though I'm the one who did the dumping. Two, I feel like I have failed him. I didn't do enough to share the love of God with him. Now I feel like his soul is on my conscience. I had the opportunity and i didn't take it. So all of you out there that have been giving advice and praying for me, please pray for him because he needs to know Christ. I just wish that he could know what real love is. I tried to show him unconditional love, but my love pales in comparison to the love of God of which he has never known. So please everyone, pray for him. Only God can reach him!

Will do.
It is very loving of you and mature of you to be concerned with the destiny of his soul. :)





g&p

hey there! i have read yur question and as much as i would like to read the others right now, i'm not, because i'm goin to focus on answerin yur question and not getin distracted by the others answers.k.
first thing, i have to tell you this, and i'm telling you the truth and i know it's probably gonna hurt~ but i'm bein honest and goin only by the word of God. it says in the bible we are not to be unequally yoked. since you are a believer in Christ Jesus the son of the living God then you can not be with a non-believer. God will never put a believer and a non-believer together, it totally contradicts his word. now i, can understand if you were friends w/ this fellow and you had shared the gospel w/ him and then the guy recieved Jesus as his savoir and belived on him~ thats different than what yur sayin here. you say this is yur boyfriend , it also says in the bible~God's Word that you are not to commit forncations. Everyone is supposed to stay pure(virgin) until their married. you know this is true, but are you obeyin God? please do not get upset. if you are sinning, and living in sin. you need to come to the knowledge of it, and know that yur hurting the lord by sinning. God loves you very much and desires to have a personal spiritual relationship w/ you! God will still forgive you, he loves you that much~ he doesn't have to think twice about. you said you have burnt out. the truth is that God has never left you........the very reason the fire went out is because you left God. The Lord has feelings just like us, you know how painful it is when someone you love leaves you or rejects you.
i know don't know what you were taught growing up. but as a christian, you are to obey God's word. Jesus is the vine and the children of God are the branches. John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
you need to ask the Lord for forgiviness and turn away from yur sins.
do not become a man pleaser, we are to please the only living GOD! we please him by having simple faith in his son Jesus Christ. its a daily walk with the Lord and everyday it takes a leap of faith or even a baby step.
remember FIRST and GREATEST COMMANDMENT~we are to LOVE the LORD our GOD with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind. and many seem to forget this commandent~ it is second but not least. To love one another!
love is not self-seeking or self-centered. :)
* my advice on drinking, that is yur choice. God gave us freewill and that just shows us how much he loves us all, he wants us to love him back and doesn't want to force it, he commands us to obey his word, but he will not make us choose to do his will and obey it.
I myself don't not drink, only because i don't want the risk of me getting drunk, which could lead to other things like harming others or myself. i can have fun without the stuff, i have seen what it can do to some people and it's hurts me to think of it.
if you need to ask me any other questions or need any help you can contact me by myspace......i'll be glad to help you with yur relantionship w/ the Lord and in growing closer to him. [email protected]
much love,peace and joy to you!!!!
i'll be prayin for you!

hey there! i have read yur question and as much as i would like to read the others right now, i'm not, because i'm goin to focus on answerin yur question and not getin distracted by the others answers.k.
first thing, i have to tell you this, and i'm telling you the truth and i know it's probably gonna hurt~ but i'm bein honest and goin only by the word of God. it says in the bible we are not to be unequally yoked. since you are a believer in Christ Jesus the son of the living God then you can not be with a non-believer. God will never put a believer and a non-believer together, it totally contradicts his word. now i, can understand if you were friends w/ this fellow and you had shared the gospel w/ him and then the guy recieved Jesus as his savoir and belived on him~ thats different than what yur sayin here. you say this is yur boyfriend , it also says in the bible~God's Word that you are not to commit forncations. Everyone is supposed to stay pure(virgin) until their married. you know this is true, but are you obeyin God? please do not get upset. if you are sinning, and living in sin. you need to come to the knowledge of it, and know that yur hurting the lord by sinning. God loves you very much and desires to have a personal spiritual relationship w/ you! God will still forgive you, he loves you that much~ he doesn't have to think twice about. you said you have burnt out. the truth is that God has never left you........the very reason the fire went out is because you left God. The Lord has feelings just like us, you know how painful it is when someone you love leaves you or rejects you.
i know don't know what you were taught growing up. but as a christian, you are to obey God's word. Jesus is the vine and the children of God are the branches. John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
you need to ask the Lord for forgiviness and turn away from yur sins.
do not become a man pleaser, we are to please the only living GOD! we please him by having simple faith in his son Jesus Christ. its a daily walk with the Lord and everyday it takes a leap of faith or even a baby step.
remember FIRST and GREATEST COMMANDMENT~we are to LOVE the LORD our GOD with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind. and many seem to forget this commandent~ it is second but not least. To love one another!
love is not self-seeking or self-centered. :)
* my advice on drinking, that is yur choice. God gave us freewill and that just shows us how much he loves us all, he wants us to love him back and doesn't want to force it, he commands us to obey his word, but he will not make us choose to do his will and obey it.
I myself don't not drink, only because i don't want the risk of me getting drunk, which could lead to other things like harming others or myself. i can have fun without the stuff, i have seen what it can do to some people and it's hurts me to think of it.
if you need to ask me any other questions or need any help you can contact me by myspace......i'll be glad to help you with yur relantionship w/ the Lord and in growing closer to him. [email protected]
much love,peace and joy to you!!!!
i'll be prayin for you!

I do not wish to start an argument over this subject, but I will just say how much inclined some of us seem to be to affirm GOD would do this or would not do that... What do we know what GOD is like or what would GOD do?
As to GOD never putting a believer with a non-believer, again this is something that, in my opinion, goes against the very spirit of Christ having died for ALL of us, believers or not. In fact, in several Gospels you can read that He pays more attention to sinners than to believers. Furthermore, one instance you can find when Jesus was criticized for choosing Mathew as one of his apostles and Evangelist, despite he was considered by the Jews a great sinner...

gromitt82
Excellent points, well made.
Fred

Sorry you guys. Alive backed up what his opinions were with scripture. It is written not to be unequally yoked together. Now if one should come to the knowledge of Christ as Savior before their spouse does, it is not grounds for divorce, but the saved spouse should pray for the salvation of the other. I believe God makes it quite clear what we should and should not do. Take the 10 commandment for an example and the greatest of all is love one another. Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and wives obey your husbands. Boy where did that come from. If only more husbands would take over as head of the house and more wives would just let them. Be so much easlier. I believe ms serious christian did say she no longer is going with the young man in question. I know she will find that right young man soon. I wish her well...

margar,
Good for you.
Fred

Define unequally yoked
What about two Christians that are not right for each other?
What about a Christian and a non Christian that both have a desire to do missionary work?

My own view is that God like a parent tells you what is our best interest and well being
But there is permissive will and perfect will
If you choose permissive will and are not equally yoked then you are in for a harder life possibly.

N0help4u,
Right.
Two people who are unequally yoked are a push pull and drag problem.
The only thing then can do IF they want to stay together is to struggle to become equally yoked.
That is NOT an easy thing to accomplish.
Often times the only solution is to become un-yoked.
Pulling together as equally as possible is a marvelous way to move forward.
It is sad that there are so many who do not realize that or work at it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I like to think of equally yoked is being of the same mind set. So a non christian and a christian can do missionary work because they have the same mind set. I am confused however, how a non christian would be a missionary outside the realm of service to Christ. There are a lot of non christians feeding and clothing people in poverty I suppose one could address as missionaries. This isn't how I think of a missionary. Yes I agree God gives us a free will to do what we want, but after salvation we should be seeking His devine plan for our lives. He alone knows what is best for us. He knows the beginning and the end of everyone. Counts the hairs on our heads He loves us so much. He loves it when we fellowship with Him. It is why He created us. I love Him so... He is so good to me and mine.

margar.
I believe that there are special cases.
As an example...
Two of my best friends are retired college professors. They travel to Spain and other countries helping people.
He was raised a Catholic and she a Jew.
They get along just fine working together and have done so for many years.
They understand each others faith well.
He is a professor of archaeology and she is a professor of anthropology and they get along fine with that as well.
God bless them both, I pray.
They are a good example of being oddly but well yoked.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Your friends are of one mind set. Even though they are different religions. Jesus was sent to the jewish people, rejected by them and then the message was given to the gentiles, who accepted Him. There will be awakening in the Jewish community I believe, but it probably won't come until the last days. I pray for the Jewish nation at this time. America needs to remain faithful to them. I guess that is a totally different topic, isn't it? I have enjoyed these responses from you all...

Gromitt: I have read back to your response.
I do not feel that God will listen to and respond to a non-christian more than a christian. The first prayer of a non-christian should be one of repentance and asking forgiveness of past sins. I am not sure non-christian prayers before salvation are heard. Something to figure out there. Think of it this way, if we call a company for information, do they ask us our name and do we find out there product information and then accept it as true before we agree to buy that product. Doesn't a relationship between the two of us has to take place first? I'm not sure I have made my point very clear??

margar,
To be accurate one should not say flatly the Jews did not accept Jesus.
That makes it appear as it all of them did which is not so.
Hundreds even thousands of Jews accepted Jesus and still do.
The Jews were the first Christians. It was they who spread the gospel to the known world.
Praise God for what they did.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I didn't mean to say that all Jews in Christs time didn't believe he is God son. Yes, the apostles and crowds of people believed Jesus was the Son of God and not a mere prophet yes I realize the 12 apostles were Jews and many were martyred for the gospels sake. Thus it was spread to the gentiles. In present day, are Jews who accept Christ as Savior and Gods son accepted by their families? I have always heard they are shunned. I am searching here, not making waves. In the last days the Bible speaks of a number of Jews who will be saved. I really am getting off the main subject here aren't I?

Do you believe the catching away of christians is close at hand?

margar
No I do not.
As I have said before we have far to many the EXPECT it to happen soon and the bible tells us that it will happen when the world least expects it.
When the world gets to the point that many are disappointed that it did not happen and stop expecting it soon THEN it will happen sooner than now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You stated it yourself when you said the world will not expect it. Jesus return is the fartherest thing away from the worlds thinking. The world doesn't give a hootenanny about His return. However, I believe it can happen any time. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned. This world isn't going to hold me here. I will be changed in a twinkling of an eye. I am expecting Jesus return any time. The scriptures even declare it for us to state the return can happen any time. I don't want any to be lost and if people think they have all the time in the world to get right with God, they'll put it off until maybe it may be too late. What do you think?

margar,
Let me make it MORE clear.
Jesus said that He will come like a thief in the night when a we least expect it.
MORE people on this world now expect the return of Christ SOON than EVER before.
That is because of the many books and preachers who are PREDICTING the return to be very soon.
They ARE ignoring the fact that all of the prophesies have not been fulfilled and in particular the building of the third temple of Yahweh on temple mount which is now under Muslim control.
First the Jews must regain control of THEIR temple mount and then build a new temple which will take years.
Then the anti-Christ comes to years later be booted out.
That is why I think it will be at the least 100 years from now that Jesus returns to this planet in any way.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes the temple has to be rebuilt. But haven't we seen many things turn around over night in history in the past few decades? Look how we went from being an industrial nation and now most of our industry has gone overseas. In the 80's we barely had the modern technology we have today. One day CD's were the latest thing, now we have all these things that practically make CD's obsolete. One day we had the twin towers and the next minute they were gone and we ended up in homeland security! Who was expecting Homeland Security? Now we have Obama for change and we can expect just about anything. SO while we do not see the temple being built today, we see it controlled by Muslims who's to say it won't be different within a few years? Look at the Berlin wall one decade it was there the next it was gone.

Yes I forgot about the temple having to be built. What do you feel might have to happen for that muslim temple to be replaced? Do you think it might be destroyed by a war of some kind? Might this be the very temple where the antichrist dies and comes back to life?

You are right, no help for you. Things do change in a matter of short time. I find it all so interesting, to be able to discuss this and no one get agitated simply because we don't know exactly what we are talking about and only want to know more. I see through a glass darkly.

N0help4u,
Building the third temple will taker much time if it is built according to God's directions.
Look up the rules fir building the temple.
Example no iron tools may be used.
Notice the materials needed and where from.
It will take many years to rebuild the temple.
Fred

For it to follow scripture I think it would have to be built within three and a half years.

REBUILDING THE JEWISH TEMPLE (http://endtimepilgrim.org/temple.htm)

Jewish Temple to Be Rebuilt in Last Days (http://www.scribd.com/doc/6951743/Jewish-Temple-to-Be-Rebuilt-in-Last-Days)

NoHelp4U
I think that is impossible.
I'll bet a fresh chocolate covered doughnut that it will take at least 15 years to build it.
That includes the time needed negotiate and to gather the materials.
But the time needed to get started will be much longer.
Fred

I was the same way. In my young Christian life I felt that things were not exactly as I would read them from the Bible. There just seemed to be more than what I was getting from it and there was.

I begin to do what I believed I should do on my own and that was to search the scriptures, cross reference the scriptures because that gave me more of a understanding of what I wanted to and more of the truth of what the Bible really had to say.

I got to thinking, why would God put a Mother in heaven and her son that was going to spend the rest of his life in Hell and her see him burn for ever and ever.

That just did not make sense to me. So the more I check and read I found that one will not burn for ever and ever in Hell. For it tells un in scripture that one will either receive Eternal Life of Eternal death. Eternal death is not living in Hell fire for ever.

I know this will not set well with many and that is because of their tradition and not what scripture tells them.

Prophetic News for America! - "To Warn a Dying Nation". (http://www.americasfinaldaysprophecy.org)

Freeman,

In the first place we must assume the fact that the O.T was written 4 to 5.000 years ago by a number of writers who were trying to explain to their contemporaries (most of whom could not even read or write) in a way they could assimilate the stories or legends which have been orally transmitted to them by their ancestors.

It was, therefore, simply to tell their listeners the world had been created in 7 days than in 13 billion years. To start with they did not even know such a figure nor would have undesrtood it.

It was also necessary to describe Yahve as a vindictive god to make those somewhat wild and greedy citizens of old Israel walk the line. Therefore, Hell and Heaven had to be explained as places of eternal fire and eternal hapiness, sitting next to God.

Then, Jesus was sent by His Father to redeem ALL of us. And His message was entirely different. It was a message of love and it was not meant only for His coevals but for all generations to come for, as God Himself, He knew the past, the present and the future.

And He spoke of Eternal Life and Eternal death. And it was clear that denying being overwhelmed by the Glory of God was enough punishment for us mortals. However, we must realize that some concepts cannot be grasped or comprehended by our very limited intelligence.

We cannot start to imagine what eternal means. Our earthly idea of a very long, long lapse of time means nothing. Eternal should rather mean with no end. Can we imagine that?
And denying the vision of God is also another idea that we cannot assume. Because, to start with, how can we imagine the Creator of our Universe, the Creator of trillions of celestial bodies, of which, our Earth is just a minuscule speck of dust?

Furthermore, is we try to judge God's ways with our own words, like justice, fairness, forgiveness, etc. we may also be making a mistake, because, who said that we think the way God does, assuming that God thinks at all?

The mystery of God is just too big for us to understand. But we were given a clue by Jesus to follow if we want to see on day what God is like. "Love each other as I have loved you"

Gromitt82

It was, therefore, simply to tell their listeners the world had been created in 7 days than in 13 billion years. To start with they did not even know such a figure nor would have understood it.

Shameless plug: I just addressed this question in the latest episode of Bible Insights. You can get to it via the link in my signature.

Dwashbur,

Sorry to see you consider what I said a "shameless plug". You probably realize you are not the only one to deal with the subject of the actual age of the Universe.

Nevertheless, if there are those who believe our Earth is only 10.000 years old it is likely they also believe our Planet is in the center of the Universe and the stars are just little lights God put out there for our amusement.

There are too those who actually claim the Creation was just a matter of 7 daysm accod¡rding to the Genesis.

But all this is irrelevant, because ALL monotheistic religions accept right now what the science says regarding our Universe and its age. Because it simply does not minimize in the least the work of our Creator. It is rather the other way round. It exalts and glorifies it... to a point we can hardly understand.

Gromitt82

Dwashbur,

Sorry to see you consider what I said a "shameless plug".

Gromitt82

DW was referring to his link, not to what you wrote, grommit.

Athos,

Wow. I agree with you? Did the earth move, was there a giant earthquake? I am officially frightened to my very core.

P.S. don't get use to it... teehee. Yeah yeah, I know you dislike me and my comments.

Freeman,

In the first place we must assume the fact that the O.T was written 4 to 5.000 years ago by a number of writers who were trying to explain to their contemporaries (most of whom could not even read or write) in a way they could assimilate the stories or legends which have been orally transmitted to them by their ancestors.

It was, therefore, simply to tell their listeners the world had been created in 7 days than in 13 billion years. To start with they did not even know such a figure nor would have undesrtood it.

It was also necessary to describe Yahve as a vindictive god to make those somewhat wild and greedy citizens of old Israel walk the line. Therefore, Hell and Heaven had to be explained as places of eternal fire and eternal hapiness, sitting next to God.



Then, Jesus was sent by His Father to redeem ALL of us. And His message was entirely different. It was a message of love and it was not meant only for His coevals but for all generations to come for, as God Himself, He knew the past, the present and the future.

And He spoke of Eternal Life and Eternal death. And it was clear that denying being overwhelmed by the Glory of God was enough punishment for us mortals. However, we must realize that some concepts cannot be grasped or comprehended by our very limited intelligence.

We cannot start to imagine what eternal means. Our earthly idea of a very long, long lapse of time means nothing. Eternal should rather mean with no end. Can we imagine that?
And denying the vision of God is also another idea that we cannot assume. Because, to start with, how can we imagine the Creator of our Universe, the Creator of trillions of celestial bodies, of which, our Earth is just a minuscule speck of dust?

Furthermore, is we try to judge God's ways with our own words, like justice, fairness, forgiveness, etc., we may also be making a mistake, because, who said that we think the way God does, assuming that God thinks at all?

The mistery of God is just too big for us to understand. But we were given a clue by Jesus to follow if we want to see on day what God is like. "Love each other as I have loved you"

Gromitt82

If one has Gods Holy Spirit truly dwelling them they CAN know more than what you give them credit. If what you say is true then do not read the Bible for it will really screw you up

Athos

DW was referring to his link, not to what you wrote, grommit.

Thanks for the clarification.

Gromitt82

Freeman

If one has Gods Holy Spirit truly dwelling them they CAN know more than what you give them credit. If what you say is true then do not read the Bible for it will really screw you up

If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you I have nothing to say but to congratulate you very heartily for you are a privileged human being. In fact more than Pope Francis who recently said he wished to be visited by the Holy Spirit more often...

On the other hand, I must confess that I do not read the OT very often. I do read, instead, every day the Gospel of the day which I find much more indoctrinating. I receive it by mail for free along with some sort of homily who helps a lot to understand it.

Incidentally, just for your information, when I lived in the States many years ago I met a number of characters who practically knew the Bible by heart and boasted of how good Christians they were, but when they saw any dark-skinned person they referred to him/her as a "nigger" ; they considered the "wetbacks" in California 3rd or 4th degree persons and
All South Americans were called scornfully "latinos".

Very good Christians and Bible lecturers, by Jove!

Gromitt82

Freeman

If one has Gods Holy Spirit truly dwelling them they CAN know more than what you give them credit. If what you say is true then do not read the Bible for it will really screw you up

If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you I have nothing to say but to congratulate you very heartily for you are a privileged human being. In fact more than Pope Francis who recently said he wished to be visited by the Holy Spirit more often...

On the other hand, I must confess that I do not read the OT very often. I do read, instead, every day the Gospel of the day which I find much more indoctrinating. I receive it by mail for free along with some sort of homily who helps a lot to understand it.

Incidentally, just for your information, when I lived in the States many years ago I met a number of characters who practically knew the Bible by heart and boasted of how good Christians they were, but when they saw any dark-skinned person they referred to him/her as a "nigger" ; they considered the "wetbacks" in California 3rd or 4th degree persons and
all South Americans were called scornfully "latinos".

Very good Christians and Bible lecturers, by Jove!

Gromitt82

I do not care what color or nationality one is they are still one of Gods creation and potential son of God no mater who it is.

Not potential. A true "Son of Love", period.

And I was not, of course, referring to you, but to many "so called christians" that follow their Faith in a very peculiar way.

Gromitt82

Not potential. A true "Son of Love", period.

And I was not, of course, referring to you, but to many "so called christians" that follow their Faith in a very peculiar way.

Gromitt82

It is potential because you are still flesh and blood. Pinch yourself.

Freeman4,

According to the Oxford Dictionary, potential means:

adjective [attributive]
having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future:


Since we are born we are the sons of God who has created us along with everything else. God created us in blood and flesh, and as such, we are metaphorically God's sons and ALL EQUAL...

Perhaps you should also be "potentially" polite when answering these threads. We are debating different subjects. Not despising your objector.

Gromitt82

I am still saying you are not a "spiritual" son of God, just a physical being with a spiritual guide, the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ has not come and changed you into a spirit being yet. Not until He returns will this happen.

If that is so important for your. OK. Have it your way and be happy.

However, speaking of riches, as we did yesterday, today's Gospel, according to Luke says: “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also... Much will be required of the one who has been given much, and more will be asked of the one entrusted with more» (Lk 12:32-48)

Is not this one the supposed crowning moment of our life? Let us live our life more intelligently, and realize what our true values are! Stop searching this earth's treasures as so many actually do. Let us elude this mental attitude, and let's concentrate it in the truly important matters.

No matter how long our temporary dwelling down here may be, it is nothing at all compared with eternity.

So why do we attach so much importance to earthly matters which we know will vanish in thin air when our time here is over?

Gromitt82

If that is so important for your. OK. have it your way and be happy.

However, speaking of riches, as we did yesterday, today’s Gospel, according to Luke says: “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also... Much will be required of the one who has been given much, and more will be asked of the one entrusted with more» (Lk 12:32-48)

Is not this one the supposed crowning moment of our life? Let us live our life more intelligently, and realize what our true values are! Stop searching this earth's treasures as so many actually do. Let us elude this mental attitude, and let’s concentrate it in the truly important matters.

No matter how long our temporary dwelling down here may be, it is nothing at all compared with eternity.

So why do we attach so much importance to earthly matters which we know will vanish in thin air when our time here is over?

Gromitt82

Believe it or not there will only be 144,000 that will be Kings and Priests in Gods Kingdom and no I am not Jehovah Witness. Read Rev. about the 144.000 if you believe God. I am not being sarcastic just giving the facts.

How do you handle the fact that at least one of those "tribes" from which the 144,000 are culled never existed?

I do not know which Rev. are you talking about, though I could not care less as to what he may be saying.

He is probably referring to the 144.000 the book of Revelation speaks about.

This book is a highly symbolic one, and because of this fact, many false religionists have attempted to exploit the message of the narrative to their own theological ends.

The Apocalypse has become a happy hunting ground for some religious cultists who seek biblical support for their peculiar doctrines.

Twice in this Book, mention is made of a group consisting of 144,000. In chapter 7 John heard of 144,000 (12,000 each from twelve different Israelite tribes) servants of God who had been sealed on their foreheads. They were thus obviously redeemed people.

Again, in Revelation 14, John saw the Lamb on Mount Zion. With him were 144,000, sealed with the Father's name upon their foreheads. This great multitude had been “purchased out of the earth,” and they were said to be the “firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.”

However, and irrespective of John's dreams, no one in their right mind can take this statements seriously. Certainly not our Churches!

Some Jehova Witness do prefer to take the Bible literally. I respect their right to do so and if they feel fulfilled by doing so, let them be happy.

But you, who sound and write like an intelligent person, please do not go around spelling this sort of daydream tale, for serious people may believe you are scoffing at them.

Gromitt82

I'm sure that Freeman was only trying to be funny and he came out with such absolute piece of nonsense. He probably has no idea about the tribe of Dan missing or about the many explanations given to John's dream about the 144.000...

Gromitt82

Actually, some groups do try to take that whole thing literally, which is why they say that only 144,000 will be in heaven. Thing is, all passages that reference this number say they're taken from the 12 tribes of Israel, and as far as I know none of the people included in any of these groups' 144,000 chosen ones are actually Jewish. I'm not sure how they get around that one.

But it gets worse. Revelation 7:8 mentions the tribe of Joseph, except that there was no such tribe. Joseph's lineage, from the very beginning, was split into the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim. Verse 6 mentions the tribe of Manasseh, so this list has Joseph's tribe listed twice, without mentioning Ephraim. In Revelation 14:1 we see this 144,000 again, but they're not in heaven. They're standing on Mount Zion with Jesus. And according to verse 3, the only thing really distinctive about them is that they know a song nobody else can seem to learn.

The actual truth of the matter: We don't know who these people are, where they came from, what they do, or why they're mentioned. Anybody can speculate and build some kind of doctrine out of it, because everything is so vague you can make it say just about anything you want. The literalists want to make them be 144,000 Jewish evangelists who spread the word of Christ through the earth after the pretribulational rapture. But we don't see them evangelizing, or preaching, or really doing much of anything, so that's nothing but a wild guess. And it's a ludicrous one at that; 144,000 evangelists to reach 7 billion people all across the earth? Uh, sure. Good luck with that.

The only thing we know for sure about the number and the people it supposedly represents is, they're symbolic of something else. Either that or John, as a good Jew, didn't know the names of his own people's twelve tribes and got the whole thing screwed up beyond recognition. Take your pick.

If you think the Bible is a bunch of fairy tails and not to be taken literal I do not know how you can call yourselves Christian. You are living in a fantasy world. A world of make believe. When all this begins to happen then you will know that God is God.

If you think the Bible is a bunch of fairy tails and not to be taken literal I do not know how you can call yourselves Christian. You are living in a fantasy world. A world of make believe. When all this begins to happen then you will know that God is God.
If you could spell, I might even think... well, never mind.

None of us says the Bible is full of fairy tales, but not all of it is to be taken literally -- "the hills clapped their hands" or "the four corners of the earth"? And like Dave and I have said, much of what is in the Bible has already taken place, including the Book of Revelation.

So, because I read a metaphor as a metaphor and a symbol as a symbol, that means I consider it all "fairy tails" [sic]. I'm not even sure that warrants a response. Clearly, your major expertise lies in jumping to conclusions and dodging evidence. I believe I may have seen enough.

If you think the Bible is a bunch of fairy tails and not to be taken literal I do not know how you can call yourselves Christian. You are living in a fantasy world. A world of make believe. When all this begins to happen then you will know that God is God.

Revelation 1:16
In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Is Christ literally going to be holding seven stars and is a double edged sword really going to be coming from his mouth?

Instead of changing or brushing these things aside... I challenge you to answer directly what myself and WG just posted.

The Bible is the Word of God... but not everything is literal nor is everything symbolic.

This type of thinking is how the Joseph Smiths and Harold Campings of the world get everybody to forsake logic and reason. The Bible is NOT that confusing of a Book. People make it that way... not God.

Originally Posted by freeman4 View Post

If you think the Bible is a bunch of fairy tails and not to be taken literal I do not know how you can call yourselves Christian. You are living in a fantasy world. A world of make believe. When all this begins to happen then you will know that God is God.

With all due respect I do not want to waste time in debating such a ludicrous statement.

However, for the sake of clarification let me remind you that Genesis narrates the creation of
the heavens and the earth in 7 solid days.

Please reply. How do you interpret literally these 7 days and how can you explain the approx. 13 billion years our scientists consider right now the age of our Universe?

Who is telling fairy tales here?

Gromitt82

There were Tribes of Joseph, Descendants of Jacob, they were Ephraim and Manasseh. Ephraim being modern day America. See Gen. Ch 32,35 and 48.

You are not answering my question. See Gen. 1 for literal interpretation...

Gromitt82

Don't know what you are talking about, do you.

Don't know what you are talking about, do you.
He wants to know how you resolve the literal reading of Genesis 1 with the scientific evidence that our universe is very old.

You only seem to understand what you deem it more convenient. You have started by saying that if we do not take the Bible literally, and we consider it like a fable, then we are kind of doomed. And you imply subsequently that you DO interpret it literally. So I'm asking you to define yourself and tell me how long did it take to create our earth? 7 days according to Gen.1 or 4.5 billion years according to some "crazy" scientists.
I would also like to know your views about Adam and Eve. Were they the only inhabitants of our planet, Eve being created out of a rib of Adam? And if so how come we have discovered in Atapuerca (Spain) 100% evidence of men and women going back to some 500.000 years... How can you explain that? Is the Bible lying?
Please clarify your position.

Gromitt82

Do you believe that all was created in 6 literal days? I don't.

So then, even you don't believe your claim that we have to take the Bible literally?

In Geneses everything was re furbished, made new in six days. Everything was put back in order because of a war type situation between God and Satan when Satan tried to take Gods Throne.

I do not know how old the universe is, billions maybe.

In Geneses everything was re furbished, made new in six days. Everything was put back in order because of a war type situation between God and Satan when Satan tried to take Gods Throne.
And you know this how?

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:7-9).

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:7-9).
And that took place when?

And that took place when?

It happened back before creation and will happen again soon.

It happened back before creation and will happen again soon.
How do you know it happened at all? And will happen again?

It seems that you are not in lightened at all on scripture or you are just trying be funny, I have never seen anyone so out of it as for having any knowledge at all about what is in the Bible .It does not matter what is given at all. I am out of here.

It seems that you are not in lightened at all on scripture or you are just trying be funny, I have never seen anyone so out of it as for having any knowledge at all about what is in the Bible .It does not matter what is given at all. I am out of here.
There is no evidence any visions in the Book of Revelation happened before the Creation.

Of course, the thread ends up with people arguing about Revelation.
Can we be anymore irrelevant?

It is a 5 year old thread... but I was kind of noticing that as well...

It is a 5 year old thread....but I was kind of noticing that as well...
I've been busy closing the other old threads freeman has resurrected.

I am out of here.
Let's hope he means it this time.

Let's hope he means it this time.

You're the one who came back to me.

I know you are, but what am I?

Seriously?

Quote:
In Geneses everything was re furbished, made new in six days. Everything was put back in order because of a war type situation between God and Satan when Satan tried to take Gods Throne.

Well, Freeman, I've been re-reading the Revelation 12:7-12 and I cannot find any reference whatsoever to the Creation. Perhaps you would not mind indicating how on earth did you get to that conclusion.

On the other hand, you seem to skip the subject of Adam and Eve. Do you really take seriously that Eve came out of Adam's rib and that he was the first man on earth? And what about the beautiful Lillith, the alleged Adam's first wife, according to Isaiah 34:14, which reads "which reads: “The wild cat shall meet with the jackals, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow, yea, Lilith shall repose there and find her a place of rest.” The Dead Sea Scrolls and/or the Babylonian Hebraic Talmud also speak of her, so what is this another legend or something to believe literally?

Gromitt82

quote:
In Geneses everything was re furbished, made new in six days. Everything was put back in order because of a war type situation between God and Satan when Satan tried to take Gods Throne.

Well, Freeman, I've been re-reading the Revelation 12:7-12 and I cannot find any reference whatsoever to the Creation. Perhaps you would not mind indicating how on earth did you get to that conclusion.

On the other hand, you seem to skip the subject of Adam and Eve. Do you really take seriously that Eve came out of Adam's rib and that he was the first man on earth? And what about the beautiful Lillith, the alleged Adam's first wife, according to Isaiah 34:14, which reads "which reads: “The wild cat shall meet with the jackals, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow, yea, Lilith shall repose there and find her a place of rest.” The Dead Sea Scrolls and/or the Babylonian Hebraic Talmud also speak of her, so what is this another legend or something to believe literally?

Gromitt82

I have no commit because you would not understand it anyway.

I have no commit because you would not understand it anyway.

First, what's a "commit"? Last I heard, that word is a verb. Second, this is always the last resort of those who can't actually defend their material: aw, you wouldn't understand anyway. So I won't bother. Internally the statement is more like "I have no idea what to say here, so I'll just insult the other person's intelligence and then go off and pat myself on the back for a job well done."

This is the age of instant information. Nobody buys that cop-out any more.

Quote:
I have no commit because you would not understand it anyway.

Sorry, Freeman, my English is not that good I do not understand the word "commit".

I do understand, however, that you don't know how to answer me, so let's forget the whole thing and call it a day, OK?

Gromitt82

I feel like I'm a pretty smart guy. Perhaps I'll understand your explanation... never know till you try.

I hope you have an open mind enough to check out these things.

To make fun of individuals is all that some know how to do for misspelling a word, that shows real character by others.

Sorry Freeman,

All I can do is to refer you to Dashbur's answer 114, of Aug. 13th.

Gromitt82

I do not think I am the insulting one, all I did was post some information but evidently it was not to your liking. Was not to your standards. What you believe is you, what I believe is me. Until one comes at me to say I know nothing about what I talk about is not a very Christian a very good Christian snowman ship.

You keep saying show me, show me and when I do you say I do not know nothing because it is not to your likeness. I am sorry for you for I do not see a Christian attitude their at all. When I post, I do not post to change anyone because I could not if I wanted, only God can do that. Not man.

There are some here I am able to converse with and I will continue to do so.

Freeman4,

I agree they shouldn't have made fun of you. It was mean spirited. I don't always spell everything perfectly either. I think your theology is screwy but I don't like personal attacks either. Just saying

Thanks, We can all agree to this agree, but in a good manner.

Thanks again.

freeman4, you say you post "information." But you clearly have a different definition of that than the rest of us do. We ask for biblical evidence for your unsupported statements, and you just give more unsupported statements. If you were backing things up with actual, good biblical exegesis, we might be able to have a conversation. But you brush everybody off by saying "you wouldn't understand anyway" and then complain about being insulted? I call shenanigans on that one. And all it would have taken was a little proofreading to realize you had written "commit" instead of "comment." As the sentence stood, it was confusing. Most people weren't making fun, they were genuinely puzzled. I'm a figure-outer by nature so I caught what you meant right away, but I'm a bit of an anomaly in my ability to do that.

We can indeed have a conversation, but it's going to require a lot more effort on your part to back up your statements. Anybody can assert something: I could assert that Jesus came back to earth riding on the back of one of the Perseid meteors this past weekend, but that wouldn't make it true, and people would (I hope) naturally ask me to back that up with some biblical evidence. That's all we've asked of you, but you have consistently refused to support your statements. That's why some of us have trouble taking your material seriously.

I hope this helps.

I have posted responses and Articles that show why I believe what I do but evidently it is not to others satisfaction so they come back with, show me proof. I do not know how much more I can show that would be OK to some here because it does not fall within their realm of belief or understanding. Like, Hell, I posted showing that it would not be an eternal punishing, but would be a eternal punishment. There is a difference. That is the way that I understand it, I am not saying for everyone else to believe that .

Freeman,

I don't get the difference? Can you explain it to me ?

"HELL" - IS THE GRAVE

HELL IS THE GRAVE

"HELL" - IS THE GRAVE

Hell is the grave
A place where we sleep
In Hebrew - called "Sheol"
In the ground, very deep

Job asked - could he rest there
When his troubles were sore
When life gave him problems
Which he heavily bore

Christ also went there
For three silent days
While he waited for Jehovah
His memory to raise

The Greeks called it "Hades"
A place they could hide
When death overtook them
And buried inside

All those forgotten
At deaths poignant door
Will lie in repose there
For many years more

Soon Christ will call out
And raise all the dead
From the slumber of hades
And the tears we all shed

~ ~ ~ ~

"Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused
through the early translators of the Bible
persistently rendering the Hebrew 'Sheol'
and the Greek 'Hades' and 'Gehenna' by the word 'hell'.
The simple transliteration of these words
by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible
has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion
and misconception."
-The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Surprisingly, fire is NOT mentioned in 78% of the
Verses where the word Hell appears in the King James
Version (KJV) bible. In the few remaining verses
Where fire and sinners are associated, it is clearly
NOT torture, but ANNIHILATION, which results.

The traditional concept of Hell does NOT come from
The inspired Hebrew or Greek manuscripts. It is a
Pagan myth adopted as Christian doctrine in the third
Century by church fathers. Yet, then as now, innocent
People are taught the traditional concept of Hell by
Trusted authority figures. That trust deters questions,
So for hundreds of years the myth has perpetuated.

"The Western religious from Roman times through
the Middle Ages borrowed the doctrine of eternal
torture from the Pagan Philosophers. Certain writers
of the Middle Ages had such tremendous influence
on the Christian-professing world, that their writings
and teachings came to be generally accepted and
believed, until it became the doctrine of the
Christian-professing world. Among these influential
writers were Augustine and Dante Alighieri."
-The Encyclopedia Americana

"Hell - any place, or some place covered over.
The word was first applied to the grave by our
German and English ancestors, and as superstition
came to regard the grave as an entrance to a world
of torment, Hell at length became the word used
to denote an imaginary realm of fiery woe."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"the word Hell comes from the
Anglo-Saxon helan, to cover..."
-Dr. Adam Clarke

"SHEOL AND HADEES- neither of these words is ever
used in the Bible to signify punishment after death."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"the words Sheol, and Hadees primarily signify
only the place, or state of the dead."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"In every instance in the Old Testament,
the word "grave" might be substituted for the
term hell, either in a literal or figurative sense."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"Hell - all the materialism of the heathen mythology
is suggested to the mind, and when rendered Hell,
the medieval monstrosities of a Christianity corrupted
by heathen adulterations is suggested. Had the word
been permitted to travel untranslated, no one would
give to it the meaning now so often applied to it.
Sheol or hades, primarily, and literally, the grave,
or death, is the precise force of the term, wherever
found."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"Hades and Sheol signifies the state of the dead
in general, without regard to the goodness or badness
of the persons, or their happiness or misery."
-Dr. George Campbell

"The punishment expressed in this passage
is cutting off from life, destroying from the earth
by some special judgment, and removing to the invisible
state of the dead."
-Dr. Allen, of Bowdoin College

"It must not be forgotten that contact with the
heathen had corrupted the opinions of the Jews,
at the time of our Savior. By receiving the traditions
and fables of paganism, they had made void the
word of God. They had accepted Hadees as the best
Greek word to convey their idea of Sheol, but without
investing it at first with the heathen notions of
the classic Hadees, as they afterwards did."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"[Christians] were in daily contact with Egyptians
And Greeks, and gradually began to adopt their
Philosophical and religious opinions, or to modify
Their own in harmony with them."
-Dr. Thayer in his "Origin and History"

"Pagans held Hadees to be a place of torment
After death, to endure forever."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

HELL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

SOME BIBLE TRANSLATIONS RENDER "SHEOL" AS - HELL

OTHERS - RENDER 'SHEOL' AS 'THE GRAVE'

'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been
inserted by translators into the Bible because of their
preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment.
This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators
realise that Hebrew words like 'sheol', simply meant -
the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures
and "NOT" a place of torment.

'Hell' is an Anglo-Saxon word for grave
( a 'hell-grond' was a graveyard) and in the Old Testament
is usually translated from an original Hebrew word 'Sheol'
meaning pit or grave.

The word 'hell' is "derived from the Saxon helan, to cover;
Hence the covered or the invisible place."
-(Revised Easton's Bible Dictionary)

The prevailing pagan idea, at the time of the translation
Of the King James Version, about hell being a place
Where the wicked are being tormented, had influenced
The translators' interpretation of the Hebrew word "
-(Revised Easton's Bible Dictionary)

The prevailing pagan idea, at the time of the translation
of the King James Version, about hell being a place
where the wicked are being tormented, had influenced
the translators' interpretation of the Hebrew word ".

With the idea that hell is a place where the wicked
Are being tormented, the translators could not use
The word 'hell' to translate 'Sheol' in every instance,
For to do so would have put some of the most faithful
Servants of God in a place of torment.

For example, the first time the Hebrew word 'Sheol' is used
Is in Genesis 37:35 concerning Jacob - who was a faithful
Servant of God. It reads :
"And all his [Jacob's] sons and all his daughters
Rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted;
And he said, For I will go down into the grave [Sheol]
Unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.".

With the idea that hell is a place where the wicked
are being tormented, the translators could not use
the word 'hell' to translate 'Sheol' in every instance,
for to do so would have put some of the most faithful
servants of God in a place of torment.

For example, the first time the Hebrew word 'Sheol' is used
is in Genesis 37:35 concerning Jacob - who was a faithful
servant of God. It reads :
"sheol"
- (Genesis 37:35)

Jacob believed that his son Joseph had been killed
by a wild beast and said that he would go down
into Sheol unto his son.

In this verse the translators used the word 'grave'
for "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave [Sheol],
That thou wouldest keep me secret,
Until thy wrath be past,
That thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
And remember me!"

Job was experiencing much suffering while he was alive,
Which finally caused him to ask God to let him go to 'Sheol'
Where he knew he would have rest.

There is much more information I can provide if you want.

Leo:

What's the difference between an "eternal punishing" and an "eternal punishment"?

Punishing is a continual thing, last and last, it doesn't stop.

Punishment is like one that has been punished and it is finished, does not continue.

Scripture says Eternal punishment. Lets say you Set a piece of paper on fire it would eventually burn up, not burn forever. The same with a person because they will be resurrected to a physical state if they are not in Christ for judgment.

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." —2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9

Everlasting destruction means to not exist any longer.

Punishing is a continual thing, last and last, it doesn't stop.

Punishment is like one that has been punished and it is finished, does not continue.
But you used the adjective "eternal" to describe both. Eternal means forever with no end.

But you used the adjective "eternal" to describe both. Eternal means forever with no end.

Exactly what I was going to say. That's like saying an infinite minute.

Eternal death means death forever, does it not. Not life eternal in a burning torment. I thing God is a more loving God that to have some see their love one burn in hell forever while they watched from Heaven, don't you?

Why do individuals want people to be tormented forever so much? I would have more love for people that that.

You're looking at this from a human perspective.

Do you think there is a Hell? With fire? Or does Hell mean something else?

Yes I do. Gods Kingdom will be established for 1000 years on this Earth.

Rev 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

The abyss is outer darkness. A place of bondage. This is Satan and his Demons.

Following is the time of the Return of Christ.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They [fn] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Next are those who have not accepted Christ and will not be resurrected until after the 1000 years have finished.

Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

Satan will be released for awhile.

Rev 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Go and read a few verses further and you will see that those who did not accept Jesus Christ will burn up in hell fire.

I agree with hauntinghelper. We look at things from Human perspective. God is not about do and don't. It's a spiritual relationship with God.

Yes I do. Gods Kingdom will be established for 1000 years on this Earth.
You've referenced only the Book of Revelation which I believe is over and done with, has seen its prophecy already fulfilled, from back in Nero's time.

Is there any other evidence in the Bible for a 1000-year reign?

How ciuld Revelation be done and over in Nero's time whenever the 1,000 year peace happens after and much of Revelation has never happened yet?

Revelation is end times

How ciuld Revelation be done and over in Nero's time whenever the 1,000 year peace happens after and much of Revelation has never happened yet?
Revelation's prophecies are over and done with.

For instance, regarding Nero, Dwashbur's answer in the now-closed 666 thread was this: "In Hebrew, the name NRWN KSR numerically adds up to six hundred sixty-six. Thing is, a lot of manuscripts of Revelation read six hundred sixteen Why? Because there's an alternate spelling of the above name, based on Latin pronunciation rather than Greek or Hebrew. It comes out NRW KSR. That adds up to six hundred sixteen. So we know where that variant reading came from. When we fill in the vowels we get:

NERO CAESAR.

This is the "beast" of Revelation whose number was 666. As WG said, this stuff already happened. There is no future "antichrist" with this number coming in the future, he's already been here and done his thing and passed off the scene. Nero slaughtered Christians, was responsible for the execution of Paul and probably also of Peter, and nobody knows how many other innocent believers. From John's perspective, he was truly the raging beast described so symbolically in chapter 13."

WG,

That is strickly your opinion and dwashbur... I strongly disagree. I don't think the Revelation prophecies are done with by any means. I think Nero was a type of the antichrist by but in NO way is he the one John saw. I am NOT the only one that thinks this either. MANY people do... yes I a am dirty rotten dispensationalist. LOTS of people agree with me. :)

One of the things that baffles me the most is what you all do with Israel.. she is back in the land a nation built in a day. Just a silly coincidence I suppose. It happens all the time! Well maybe some of the time... ok well, maybe never. I don't believe in coincidence... not to God's chosen people.

LOTS of people agree with me. :)
LOTS and LOTS of people agree with Dave and me. :D

Interpretation.

The Old Testament is replete with prophecies that predict the future millennial reign of Christ on Earth. Before we proceed with our study here, it would be profitable for us to look at a few from an Old Testament prophet that had a great deal to say about Christ’s millennial reign … the prophet Isaiah. He said,

There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. His delight is in the fear of the LORD, and he shall not judge by the sight of his eyes, nor decide by the hearing of his ears; but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Righteousness shall be the belt of his loins, and faithfulness the belt of his waist. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek him, and his resting place shall be glorious. It shall come to pass in that day That the LORD shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west; together they shall plunder the people of the East; they shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab; and the people of Ammon shall obey them. The LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt; with his mighty wind he will shake his fist over the River, and strike it in the seven streams, and make men cross over dry-shod. There will be a highway for the remnant of his people who will be left from Assyria, as it was for Israel in the day that he came up from the land of Egypt. Isaiah 11

I will open rivers in desolate heights, and fountains in the midst of the valleys; I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar and the acacia tree, the myrtle and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the cypress tree and the pine and the box tree together, that they may see and know, and consider and understand together, that the hand of the LORD has done this, and the Holy One of Israel has created it. Isaiah 41:18-20

For the LORD will comfort Zion, he will comfort all her waste places; he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness will be found in it, thanksgiving and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree; and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. Isaiah 55:13

Zechariah 14:3­4,

Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and the half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

It shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth. They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and will be shut up in the prison; after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed; for the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before his elders, gloriously. Isaiah 24:21-23

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? First Corinthians 6:2

I am sorry If you do not understand this, Like I said I just present what I do but God is the one who has to open the mind to understand.

I have given much scriptural information, I can do more.

Interpretation.

The Old Testament is replete with prophecies that predict the future millennial reign of Christ on Earth. Before we proceed with our study here
Instead of all these copies-and-pastes, I would really appreciate it if you wrote from your own knowledge and heart like the rest of us do. I will not read long paragraphs of copied stuff, but will avidly read the honest and well-thought-out musings and questions and beliefs of the members on this site.

WG,

I agree. Freeman just talk to us.

I actually do believe the Lord will rule and reign for 1000 years. I believe Satan will be thrown in the abyss. And he will be let out towards the end, there will be many that follow him. Are we on the same page on this part?

Are we on the same page on this part?
I'm on a different page. Are we choosing up teams? ;)

WG...
LOL... well I get to pick who is on my team. Freeman, sorry dude you haven't made the cut. I know you feel the same. It's all good.

But I am curious Freeman, how long have you been interested in Jesus, end times...

Revelation's prophecies are over and done with.

For instance, regarding Nero, Dwashbur's answer in the now-closed 666 thread was this: "In Hebrew, the name NRWN KSR numerically adds up to six hundred sixty-six. Thing is, a lot of manuscripts of Revelation read six hundred sixteen Why? Because there's an alternate spelling of the above name, based on Latin pronunciation rather than Greek or Hebrew. It comes out NRW KSR. That adds up to six hundred sixteen. So we know where that variant reading came from. When we fill in the vowels we get:

NERO CAESAR.

This is the "beast" of Revelation whose number was 666. As WG said, this stuff already happened. There is no future "antichrist" with this number coming in the future, he's already been here and done his thing and passed off the scene. Nero slaughtered Christians, was responsible for the execution of Paul and probably also of Peter, and nobody knows how many other innocent believers. From John's perspective, he was truly the raging beast described so symbolically in chapter 13."

The Bible says, there will be many antichrists but in the end THE antichrist. The Bible says that in the end times knowledge will increase, knowledge is increasing in the past century more than it ever did. Revelation also says there will be a one world government and many other things that have not happened. There is no way Revelation was fulfilled in Nero's day. Many antichrists before THE antichrist ----Hitlers name adds up to 666 as well as many other rulers.

The Bible says, there will be many antichrists but in the end THE antichrist. The Bible says that in the end times knowledge will increase
Where in the Bible?

SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST (http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_antichrist.htm)

Yes, we are on the same page. I am not really understanding what some want. I give my intake on something, that is not good enough, then I do what they want and give scripture and they do not want that. I am confused as to what some do want. I could and do explain it in my own words and that is not good enough. I give up.

But you are seeing what I am talking about.

Freeman,

My man! Yes.. just speak from what you believe. I am not sure anyone is reading the copy and paste stuff.

Well, so far we are on the same page. I am a Christian, probably accepted Jesus before I was 4. I don't know when I did. I was young. I don't know that we believe exactly the same but at least we are on common ground.

So... if I were to ask you... what must I do to be saved from hell? What would be your answer? In your own words from your own heart without trying to patronize.

The Bible says, there will be many antichrists but in the end THE antichrist.

Show me where. John's letters talk about many antichrists, but why did he mention it?

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

They had heard that "THE antichrist" was coming; John corrects this misperception by telling them that there are many antichrists, not just one. There is no "THE antichrist." John wrote this verse specifically to counter that notion.

Also, I would love for anyone to show me a single place where the 666 character is called "antichrist."

And for those who think the whole thousand year thing is literal: a thousand years as measured by what? 365 day years? What about leap years? Suppose it turned out to be 999 years and 364 days; does that mean the Bible was wrong? Is it measured by the Gregorian calendar or the Jewish calendar? Or maybe the Julian?

Anyone who thinks anything in Revelation was meant to be interpreted literally knows zilch about actual biblical interpretation. And that includes the hacks who write books and make movies to tickle people's ears while separating them from their money.

My only point is HOW can anybody believe that the Book Of
Revelation WAS already fulfilled IN Neros day?

I am 74 years old and have been a Christian for 40 years. I was a devout church goer from a protestant Church for some time. I was electrocuted with 7, 200 Volt of Electricity will I was working in the oil field.

God saved me from this with no physical injuries at all. I started searching the Bible for answers. If God was God I wanted to know. I searched and I searched and I begin to see some things which God was revealing to me and found that some others had the same insight as I.

You can not just look at something and say, boy, that is too much to read, I am satisfied with what I have and go on. God expects one to search Him out, not to just say I accept you God and that is it.

You see, I know who I am and what God has in store for me. And that is to help in giving out what I have and I will continue even through death if I have to.

God will not verbally give His warnings, he has some who will do that for Him. He said if those who know do not give warning they would be in danger from Him.

What danger our Nation is heading for is not being given and will surprise many very soon. I will continue to do what I do.

My only point is HOW can anybody believe that the Book Of
Revelation WAS already fulfilled IN Neros day?

We get that by reading it the way it was intended to be read. The biggest problem with people reading Revelation today is, they keep making the mistake of trying to read it literally. This type of book was never meant to be read that way. It's symbolic from the first word to the last. We know this for an established fact, because we have other writings from the same period that are just as symbolic, use fantastic imagery, and basically read like a bad mushroom trip.

Why would they write like this? To protect themselves. You encode the empire's despotic activities in mythical language with symbols like different colored horses, monsters like frogs, multi-eyed creatures rising from the sea, images of them being overthrown by an invasion from the sky, and a nice round figure - a thousand years - to illustrate that the good guys will win in the end. About the only thing that's really literal in that book is the word "John." And since in chapter 4 he goes into a trance, even that might not be literal.

When we read it with a view to decoding the symbolism and what it would have meant to John and his listeners, we can see where the images fit with historical personages such as Nero. The 666 thing was a common device for saying "This guy is a major jerk, but if I say it out loud he'll have me beheaded, so I'm going to encode it. You guys all know what I mean." We know beyond any doubt that this was how they did such things in John's day. There is no reason, not a single one, to suspect that John was doing something different when he wrote Revelation.

That's how we understand that it was fulfilled around John's time. John saw the beast, Nero, rise and persecute the church, including the execution of Paul. He also saw Nero's downfall and the introduction of more moderate emperors, and a lot of other stuff that we can match up with the imagery in Revelation. It's right there it you throw off the phony chains of literalism and read it the way he wrote it.

I am going to be like others on here, where do you get such foolish information? You must believe in fairy tails. I know you do not believe this but what is happening in Egypt will spread to our Nation and soon. And it will be real, not symbolism.

I am going to be like others on here, where do you get such foolish information? You must believe in fairy tails.

Actually, I wasn't aware that fairies had tails. (Sorry, I couldn't resist. I think you mean "tales.") Where did I get it? History. The earliest Christians interpreted it this way, and there is really an unbroken line of interpretation that sees the book just this way. Confusion over all the absurd symbolism is one of the reasons that Revelation almost didn't make it into the canon. So-called literal interpretation, with all of its concomitant speculation about "current events" in every generation since the idea arose, is a relatively new idea. And once again, if we go with the style that John used, and what we already know about apocalyptic literature of the time, interpreting it literally is WRONG. That's basic historic fact. You are welcome to call it "fairy tails" if you wish, but you just undermine your own position by appealing to unfounded literalism.

Everybody wants to believe their generation is the one where all the big stuff will happen. It might be, or it might not. The symbols and all, as well as Jesus' own forecasts, are vague enough that any generation can find parallels in the imagery. That doesn't make any of it correct; in fact, one could argue that the note of desperation in the dispensationalists' and other literalists' arguments suggest that they are stretching the evidence as much as they dare in order to find parallels. The problem is, pretty much in every case, the parallels are more imagined than real.

I don't care about end-times speculation. I have my hands full trying to live my Christianity in the here and now. Idle speculation about the future has a way of elbowing out the more important matters of the faith, and I've had enough of that.

I am glad for you.

WG and Dave,

Come ON! Quit giving Nohelp a hard time. NO. John never said there would be many antichrist in revelation... JESUS said there would be many who claimed to be the Christ. I believe THAT is what she refers to. I don't know for sure... but I assume. JESUS warns against people who say they ARE the Christ... they aren't.
John talks about in his first epistle of anti-Christ and the spirit of anti Christ.
And the spirit is here and now... it always has been here since Christ but it is worse. Jesus was a rejected man on earth.. he still is. You can say God but say the name of Jesus and people are offended. Thus the spirit of antichrist.

HOWEVER.. there is coming and probably he lives today ONE that claims to BE God. He will cause everyone to take the mark of the beast on his left hand or his forehead. Without this mark no man can buy or sell. If a person will not bow to him as God his head will be cut off. Are you telling me that NERO fulfilled this prophecy? Please. I don't THINK so.

WG and Dave,

Come ON! quit giving Nohelp a hard time.
I'm not giving N0 a hard time. I simply asked a question 24 hours ago, and it still hasn't been answered. Where does the Bible say there is going to be ONE anti-Christ in our time?

WG..

Oooh oooh let me answer.. it doesn't.

I just like nohelp.. she is sweet.

Freeman4,

You know I appreciate your sharing. And I completely agree that we should be taught by the LORD. When you read my posts you must know I have been influenced by people in the past. I admit it. I have. Having said that, I do not lay hands suddenly on NO man. I make sure that what I believe is in line with scripture.

John never said there would be many antichrist in revelation

Correct, he didn't say it... in Revelation. He said it in his first epistle, which I already quoted in this thread.

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

I also said this about that verse:


They had heard that "THE antichrist" was coming; John corrects this misperception by telling them that there are many antichrists, not just one. There is no "THE antichrist." John wrote this verse specifically to counter that notion.

Also, I would love for anyone to show me a single place where the 666 character is called "antichrist."

I'm still waiting for a response, from you or anyone else.

I'll have to admit, I am not for sure on this one specific anti-Christ thing myself. I know that anyone who opposes Christ is considered to be-anti-Christ, or that is against Christ.

Have to look at this more.

If NERO really WAS the antichrist... ( he is certainly a type) then why wasn't he revealed as THE antichrist? We should KNOW he was... we don't. Hitler also was a TYPE of antichrist.

Paul said in 2 Thess. 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Sorry... he has NOT been revealed. He is coming...

Once again, there is no "THE antichrist" in the Bible. Paul's "man of sin" may or may not be such a character, we don't know. You keep talking about types, but that's not what John said. He said there's no such thing, rather, there are lots of antichrists. If you don't think that's what it says, I'm open to an alternate explanation.

That's part of the problem: people take a word like "antichrist" and assume that "man of sin" and "beast" and "666" and all that refer to the same thing and that it has to be future. Nothing in the text requires any of it.

In 11 Thess. He is called " the lawless one".

2Th 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness [fn] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

I do not believe it could be any clearer that there will be one specific individual who will be the end time " anti-Christ" and when that time comes we will know it.

I would hope I'm familiar with the passage, considering I already referenced it. But there are a few problems with it.

1. It doesn't say anything about an antichrist. It speaks of a "man of lawless" who wants to be God. There have been plenty of those. In the mid 20th century there was a guy, I think in Pennsylvania, who simply claimed to be God. He had several followers. For all we know, Paul was talking about him. The comments are so vague that they could mean anything. Why do you supposed Paul was so vague? Because we're not supposed to speculate! We have much more important things to do.

2. This could not have been literal, for one simple reason: less than a generation after it was written, the Romans destroyed the temple. So there is no way for such an individual to set himself up in the temple of God because there is no such temple. And don't tell me it's going to be rebuilt; that is nothing but rampant speculation based on nothing.

3. If this were talking about some eschatological "antichrist," it's clear that Paul expected his readers to be on earth to see it when it happened. He talks about this supposed individual as well as the Lord's coming and our gathering to Him as being something believers will see AFTER this character does his thing. So not only is it vague to the point of uselessness, built on the idea of a structure that no longer exists and isn't likely to again, but it also blasts the pretribulational rapture idea to pieces. Paul fully expected his readers, whether in his time or in the future, to experience these things on earth before Jesus returns.

4. It also speaks of a "rebellion." But what does that mean? In a word, nothing. There have been rebellions in every generation on every continent since the rise of Christianity, and I'm sure there are more to come. So what's he talking about? A Renaissance Catholic might have looked at this and considered the Reformation to be this rebellion. Some people look at certain political hot-button issues today and think maybe that stuff is the rebellion. What's the bottom line?

WE DON'T KNOW.

We have no idea what this passage actually means. Most likely, it was based on something Paul told them while he was there, but we don't know what it was. For some reason, too many Christians think that "I don't know" isn't an acceptable answer. But the Bible is full if I-don't-knows. Micah 6:8: do justice, love mercy, and walk something-or-other with your God. Most translations say "walk humbly" but the truth is, we have no idea what the Hebrew word there means. The Septuagint says "be prepared to walk with your God." We go with "humbly" because the word bears some superficial resemblance to another word that means "humble" but that's nothing more than a guess. The word there is a true I-don't-know. Why are we so afraid of those?

Sorry, but this passage doesn't make your case. And it says nothing at all about any "THE antichrist" nor does it have any clear ties with Revelation 13 or anything else. It's just sort of hanging out there in space for theologians to argue over.

1. It doesn't say anything about an antichrist. It speaks of a "man of lawless" who wants to be God. There have been plenty of those. In the mid 20th century there was a guy, I think in Pennsylvania, who simply claimed to be God. He had several followers. For all we know, Paul was talking about him. The comments are so vague that they could mean anything. Why do you supposed Paul was so vague? Because we're not supposed to speculate! We have much more important things to do.

You quote the above.

Something is wrong with ones thinking if they do not understand that anyone contrary to what God has to say , if it be MAN OF SIN or what is ANTI- GOD- ANTI CHRIST- I do not think they understand anything about God.

Dave,
I don't try to figure out who this man is going to be. I have no clue and I just personally believe he is alive and well right now.

I am not sure why you find the idea of the temple being rebuilt so outrageous. You think it is speculation based on nothing. I believe God's word says it will happen and that is enough for me. You know when John Darby a dispensationalist lived back in the 1800's the Lord showed him these truths and there was NOTHING he could see to back up what the Lord showed him. I mean... NOTHING. He believed it by faith. John Darby never lived to see Israel back in the land let alone the knowledge explosion, technology and the likes. I am sure he was laughed at plenty and told his thoughts were based on nothing. It didn't change truth? Israel became a nation in a day. Therefore I disagree that believing the temple will be rebuilt is speculation based on NOTHING. Obviously Israel needed to be back in the land. One down... I don't know how and I don't know when but take it to the bank it will happen. If God who flung the stars into existence ( kind of an incidental, by the way statement in Genesis) he can orchestrate the temple being rebuilt. No big deal for him.

As far as the bible verse you Micah, I have never heard that no one can properly translate it. But I think it is a stretch for you to compare one word to Paul's letters and endtime teaching. Paul said over and over again "I would not have you ignorant brethren" . He wanted us in the know, he even used that pharse in thessalonians when I believe he is talking about the rapture. In in any event, I don't know everything for sure. But the Lord gave us his word and I believe he WANTS us to know what is coming. What good does it do for him to give us his written word if NO ONE can ever know what it means. It isn't of value. But that isn't what God says about his word. He states he places his WORD above his name. He goes so far as to say heaven and earth will pass away but NOT HIS WORD. I may not have all the answers, you may not have all the answers but they are IN there.

Frankly, Darby is a joke. Genuine biblical scholars tend to laugh at him. And dispensationalism has more holes in it than the average slice of Swiss cheese.

As for Israel, let's be real. The "nation" that is there now is an artificial construct that in no way resembles anything in the Bible. Even a lot of Jewish scholars don't consider it the Israel that God envisioned. Supposedly, the return of Israel should be a miracle of biblical proportions, but we all know that's not what happened. What's there now came about as a result of a lot of politicking backed up by a war. Some miracle. Even assuming that the dispensationalists are correct and there's still stuff to be done with "Israel," what we're seeing over there right now is NOT what's envisioned in the Bible.

Add the fact that they're wrong, and "Israel" in the New Testament includes believers like us whether Jew or Gentile and the promises to Israel have been fulfilled in us, and what's left? Not much. What else you got?

With all that is happening now in this world and in our Nation people are still sound asleep. It does not matter to me if one wants to believe that America is part of the Lost House of Israel or not. That will not stop what is going to happen to our Nation from happening.

If one is blinded from this fact then so be it and let it take it's course because it is going to anyway. The main stream media has people so confused they do not know which end is up. If they do not print what they are told to print they will not have a Job.

The Government is doing their best to shut down the News sources that give the under ground news, news you can not get anywhere else.

If one can not see the dangers larking in the Middle East and probably will not stop until all is on fire over their.

So individuals need to get their heads out of the sand and prepare for what is coming. When the devastation of the hurricane hit in our area all the stores run out of food, no Gas, nothing. I know I managed one. People had no food, water was gone. But what if this were to happen Nation wide, are you prepared, or are you going to let God bring you water and food. Believe me, we are heading in that direction and it want be to long

If one has any children they need to think of them for they get hungry to. I know I will get the third degree from this but it had to be said. God gives us all type warning on this but we do not listen. I hope some do now.

Since you people apparently like to discuss whether is right or wrong to literally interpreting the Holy Bible I'm going to suggest a different subject altogether to what you have been discussing so far, although, in my humble opinion, it is quite as relevant bearing in mind the many times it appears in the Books.
I am referring to the mention the “Son of Man is sitting at the right of the Mighty One”
I am quoting herewith four fragments from The New International Version of the Holy Bible, although there are others of which I give below the references:
Psalm 101.1 -

Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
Matthew 26:64

“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven

Ephesians 1:20
“he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms…”
1 Peter 3:22

“who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him”.
Others:
Acts 2:34-35 and 7:55-56; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3 and 1:13
The point I am driving at is that if we must literally interpret Jesus' words according to the Bible, we must be thinking, in accordance with our limited understanding of Heavenly matters, of a physical Jesus sitting next to God's right hand side, Who, in turn, should also be some sort of physical imponent figure dominating the entire Universe.
This image, in my opinion, fits quite well in the Greek mythology where we can see a powerful and bearded Zeus, looking like a greek athlet, with his wife Hera sitting next to him, and ruling the world from Mount Olympus. Except that in my wildest dreams I cannot visualize our Creator, our True and Only God, as a perfect representation of man and much less, sitting in some kind of golden throne...
We have no idea of what God may look like. Most probably God is some inimaginable or abstrat concept our mind is completely unable to comprehend and, consequently, only when we shall be able to uderstand IT we shall also understand ITS Kingdom and what ITS Glory actuallly means.
But when the Gospels were written the idea of God had to be transmitted to the people of those days (mostly completely illiterate), in a way they could assimilate it. And this is probably why the Bible, in Genesis 1:27, says that “God created man I his own image”... and why, in general, all other religions depict their gods with human figures.
Muslims, however, consider –and I think they are right- God cannot be represented by any image; doing it would be some sort of idolatry. In fact, some Protestants confessions also ban God images in their temples.
I would therefore like to see what you have to say re. the above subject. Are we looking like God or this is how the idea of God could be made understandable to people 5000 years ago?
Gromitt82

With all that is happening now in this world and in our Nation people are still sound asleep.

You say this a lot, but don't really give any details. So I ask: such as?

Gromitt,

I believe the bible is clear that God is a spirit. Jesus said in Luke 24:39 that a spirit didn't have flesh and bones.

Also the apostle Paul wrote several times that God is invisible. In fact in 1 Timothy 6:16 He said no man has seen God or CAN see God. So God as God we will never see. BUT we CAN see him in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He himself said if you have seen him you have seen the Father.

It is recorded that we were made in the image of God. Obiviously it isn't a physical image because God is a Spirit. BUT he did give man a spirit. Adam was made without sin; he was completely righteous just like God God gave Adam intellect. He also has made Adam like him socially and they enjoyed a relationship. So there are many ways in which man was made in the image of God... it just wasn't the physical image of God.

Dave,

Darby was a brilliant man... far from joke but you are entitled to your opinion. What are all the holes you speak of by the way.

ClassyT
I quite agree with you and, consequently, we both understand the Bible has to be interpreted bearing in mind when it was written and what it means, NOT what it says literally.
Thanks
Gromitt82

Freeman,
Quote:

God gives us all type warning on this but we do not listen. I hope some do now.

It is quite possible that God may be warning us of a doomsday to come one of this day. It is also possible that men pay no attention to such warnings as, usually, throughout History, men has paid little attention to God, considering how men have been behaving for the last 7000 years.

However, what is going on now in Egypt is far less important (in terms of casualties) that what has been going on in Syria, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Korea, or Viet Nam or durng WWII. And I'm not bearing in mind other conflicts such as Darfur, Cambodja, Rwanda, Somalia, where actual genocides have taken place before the general indifference of the 1st world.

As I said before, if God has been warning us all these times it is rather obvious that we have paid little attention to God.

Gromitt82

general indifference of the 1st world.
I don't agree that the first world has been indifferent. I know churches and other charities as well as national organizations have asked for and gotten donations and food and clothing for survivors, some people have been able to get into the country to give hands-on aid, but too often the governments or military (whoever is in charge at the moment) of these war-torn countries will not permit help to be given and will do everything they can to misdirect or will even claim any financial aid for themselves (e.g. Haiti). And as far as offering military assistance, that's any even larger problem.

God is perfect. I would invite you to examine yourself before the Lord through prayer and study. Please be careful not to examine the circumstance of your life or that of those around you.

A fire in your heart to serve God is a great thing. It is something that often comes with fresh belief and often sadly lost as one settles into life. The problem is that many do not know how to serve their Father, many find it easy to throw money at the church and say you do it, or follow a church's set of events centered on filling those slyly placed coffers. True service in the Lord starts first with obedience to Christ (John 12:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2012:20-26&version=NKJV)), whose life we can find outlined in scripture. The study of scripture can lead you to obedience in your life. However, I do point out that the study of scripture may give you direction, moreover through action will you be blessed in the Lord. (James 1:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:21-27&version=NKJV) , Luke 11:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2011:27-28&version=NKJV))

How then can we know service, except through obedience; and obedience except through His commandments? What you must first must focus on is the most central concept of the bible, second only to the salvation through Christ; it is the greatest commandment given: To love God with your all, and to love all man as yourself. (Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2022:34-40&version=NKJV)) I know many do not know how to love, it seems illusive and undefined, but we are to love as God loves us (John 13:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2013:34-35&version=NKJV)), and the bible puts it so simply in 1 Corinthians 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 13 &version=NKJV) and Galatians 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%205:16-25&version=NKJV). Furthermore the bible commands us, as a measure of love (for Christ died for us), to continually tell others about Christ and what He has offered them. (Mark 16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-19&version=NKJV))

These commandments alone give us a lifetime of work and opportunity. Why then should we worry about this and that when God has provided us with a simple plan. I would offer a suggestion, if you time to worry about more than these things, consider yourself continually. You know what is right and wrong, for each second are you choosing wisely, and are you honoring God? These thoughts and their remedies will fill all your time if you let them, and they further the work of our Lord, they become a light to the world, reflecting God's love into a dark and suffocating abyss we call the world.

I'm sorry, I do have so much more to say, but I must be off to work. I wish you many blessings and will keep you in prayer. Hopefully I will get back this evening to address this some more.

Further Reading

Obedience and Service:
John 14:12-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:12-23&version=NKJV) - Romans 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012&version=NKJV) - Matthew 20:20-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2020:20-27&version=NKJV) - John 13:1-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20John%2013:1-12&version=NKJV)

Originally posted by WonderGirl,
Quote:
I don't agree that the first world has been indifferent

I quite agree that there are many churches, private organizations and NGOs that do what they can to help these countries, some, even at the risk of their lifes.
But that does not mean the 1st world is not indifferent to the suffering and misery of millions of people who still are to be found all over 3rd world countries.

Large multinationals located in the USA and the EU find very profitable to do business at a large escale with some of the most corrupt leaders in the world to be able to have unlimited access to minerals and raw materials which are essential for their industries.
Others, sell all kind of last generationmilitary equipment that contributes to keep alive a number of conflicts at a price of thousands of casualties, particularly in Africa.

A good instance could be the Equatorial Guinea. It is one of the smallest and poorest countries in the continent but which, curioously enough, it happens to be the richest country per capita in Africa. According to the UN "less than half of the population has access to clean drinking water and that 20% of children die before reaching five".

How come? Since the mid-1990s, Equatorial Guinea has become one of sub-Sahara's largest oil producers. At the same time "Equatorial Guinea has one of the worst human rights records in the world, consistently ranking among the "worst of the worst" in Freedom House's annual survey of political and civil rights.[10] Reporters Without Borders ranks President Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo among its "predators" of press freedom"

A 2004 US Senate investigation into the Washington-based Riggs Bank found that President Obiang's family had received huge payments from US oil companies such as Exxon Mobil and Amerada Hess. Since 2005, Military Professional Resources Inc. a US-based international private military company, has worked in Equatorial Guinea to train police forces in appropriate human rights practices. In 2006, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice hailed Obiang as a "good friend" despite repeated criticism of his human rights and civil liberties record.

The Spanish government (BTW, my country) also considers Obiang as a great partner and he is received with high honors whenever he visits Madrid and other European cities, specially London.

Obiang and his familiy and relatives have an estimated fortune of several billion dollars which is well placed in Swiss, American and English banks as well as in profitable businesses.

I could give you many more and equally terrible examples but this is not really the place to do it.

I just wanted to emphasize that while individually many do care at which is going on in the 3rd world, the 1st world (understanding by this governments and large corporations) not only are indifferent to this situation but they take advantage of it.

Gromitt82

while individually many do care at which is going on in the 3rd world, the 1st world (understanding by this governments and large corporations) not only are indifferent to this situation but they take advantage of it.

And I totally agree with that.

Thanks, Wondergirl,

By the same token, and despite such indifference, we, as individuals, must keep on giving whatever little help we may, no matter how small, for everything counts.

Gromitt82

NfoJunkie4Life, said:

Quote:
God is perfect

Of course God is perfect. The mere consideration that God has created the Universe (the known and the unknown ones) with its uncomprehensible dimensions; that God has no Beginning and no End and Its Infinite power, must imply endless total perfection, although I am of the opinion that our qualifying terms cannot beguin to be applied to God.

However, God sent Jesus to redeem us and to show us the path we have to follow to reach our salvation. This path is contained in the 11th Commandment: "Love one another as I have loved you"

Nothing else, but nothing less...
Gromitt82

Rereading the original post, I'd like to address a couple of things. First, Christianity is not now, and never has been, a rule system. Those "rules" are artificial constructs that various church groups have placed on people over the centuries, but they aren't really biblical. The key passage is Romans 14: everything is permissible, as long as conscience allows it and it doesn't screw up someone else's spiritual walk. If you're growing beyond those rules and starting to understand your freedom in Christ and how best to live within it, you're growing up.

As for your BF, have you talked with him about these feelings? Does he know about the previous relationship and what it did to you? They key to everything in a relationship is communication. I lost my wife of 30 years because we couldn't communicate. By God's grace I got her back and we talk now more openly and forthrightly than ever before. If you're not comfortable talking one on one with him about this, get a qualified third party, whether a counselor, or one of your pastors, someone like that. They should be able, not only to help you open up and tell the BF how you're feeling, but also help him hear and understand what you're saying and not misunderstand or panic. But trust me, even at the risk of losing him, you do NOT want to keep that stuff bottled up. Because when it eventually does reach the bursting point, it's a lot worse than if you let the pressure out a little at a time through talking and working on it together.

As far as him becoming a Christian, the best thing you can do is live it for him to see, to the best of your ability. When you fumble, and you will, we all do, find ways to communicate that, yeah, I blew that one, that's why I'm glad that God forgives. I'm trying to do better. Inviting him to church is fine, but he, like most non-believers, is going to be a lot more interested in how it's making your life better and making you a better person. That too is communication.

Hope this helps.