Ok we all know we have to Die someday, there is no if's an's or buts about it. But there is an Actual " Fear " of the Physical Aspect of the Dying Process. I am not afraid of Death itself per-say, but just the fact of Dying in pain, struggling for my last Breath, Labored Breathing which is very painful and uncomfortable, and that horrible " Death Rattle " that we do upon death.

Now knowing that we all have to die someday does not remove the " Fear " of The dying process, actually it only increases it, knowing that we all must die. I am 47 years old and I see that Death is coming closer and closer, and I just watched my mother die of a horrible sickness that I am afraid to get.

Now is there anyway that one can die a Peaceful and Painless Death without doing that Death Rattle and struggling for breath, that thought just terrifies me ? :eek: :confused:

When we reach the point of the "death rattle" in most cases, we will not be truly aware of what is happening.

At least not on the same level as when we are normal and healthy.

It is a legitimate fear, one that most of us face, I try not to think about it too much or it would interfere with living and enjoying the time we do have left.

I don't know of any way to eliminate the fear itself.

Thank you for your response, yes it is interfering with my life, I have panic attacks about it, I can't sleep at night, and my heart is always beating irregular in my chest. I tried Praying, going to church, meditation and speaking to people, but nothing helps. All most people can say is " We all have to die someday " so just accept it, and live your life to the fullest. Again that still does not remove the " Fear " that I have about the Dying process.

You know its ashamed, Animals can be put to sleep Peacefully when they are terminally ill
But we humans have to go the hard way, Struggling for breath, doing the Death rattle, actually Drowning in our own fluids, and that thought terrifies me, to know that someday I will do that, weather it is tomorrow, or 10, or 20 or 40 years from now, I still cannot remove that Fear as each year that we pass we get closer and closer to our Deaths, and I am just petrified of it.

I guess I look at it a little differently.

I could die in a car wreck on the way home tonight.

That thought alone, stops me from worrying about dying a slow and painful death.

The reality of it all is that unless we are inclined to take our own life, none of us really gets to choose how or when it will happen.

Just knowing that I may not die in such a way, tends to keep the thought from being overwhelming.

I hope you find a way to cope with it though, it has to be a heavy weight to carry everyday.

Yes it is a very heavy weight to Carry, especially since I watched my mother dying for 4 years from Kidney Failure, Diabetes, Gangerne it was a horrible experience. Now that she is gone I am left alone, I have no family of my own, and I am an only child with no brothers or Sisters, so yes with me it is even more freightening, as I live with this fear constantly and I cannot seem so shake it, especially when I saw all of those people in the ICU room on those life support machines it is horrible, when they shut of the machine, that is when the person choacks or suffocates to death, it is just awlful.

In my activities as unpaid volunteer compagnion and attendant in a local hospes, I meet many people at the end of their life. The strange thing is that the more religious people are, the higher their fear is for death. Not for death as a physical act, but for what happens after death.

As a Secular Humanist I do not have any problems with death. Though I like to live as long as possible - subject to remaining healthy and independent - I have no fear for death. It's not different to falling asleep, though without re-awakening.

The fear of death is NOT based on the physical action. It is based on the consequences of years of religious brain washing and inducing that fear to force believers to follow the suggested religious lines.

So if you are terrified of the dying process , first step is to become a Secular Humanist, and free yourself of all these ridiculous religious delusions !

:rolleyes:

You can actually have yourself 'put to sleep' as it were, but you would have to be in a terrible state and terminally ill, I'm not sure if its either Switzerland or Sweden and I'm not entirely sure on what the requirements are, I just know that there have been people to fly out and have it done, but on a basic level what you are essentially doing is committing suicide.

Actually it is legal in the State of " Oregon " too and the name of the Drug they use is called " Euthanasia " and it is known as a " Happy Death " but unfortunately I live in New York City where it is not legal. We have to go out the Hard way, while animals are painlessly put to Sleep and die peacefully and humans have to die from Strangulation or Suffocation from loss of breath, I know what loss of breath is, I had asthma a long time ago and it is horrible, imagine the Agony on our Death beds !

Yea that's the name for it, but my point being people actually fly out there to have it done, doesn't matter where they are.

I have seen two relatives die, one from cancer and one from old age. You mention several times fighting for breath. Neither of them fought for breath. The breathing became increasingly more shallow but there was no panic of any kind whatsoever. The body knows how to handle thousands of problems in life and you can bet it is programmed to handle it final function. Remember, a coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero dies but one.
Harsh, but very true.

imagin the Agony on our Death beds !
Have you met with a counselor regarding this fear? I'm guessing you are experiencing a lot of unresolved grief and even anger/guilt that enough wasn't done to relieve the pain and complications of your mother's health problems. Please find someone to help you to work through that.

OK what about the " Death Rattle " that is done upon the person's dying breath ? From what I read on line about it, they are choacking or Drowning in their own syliva that is why we hear that Death Rattle. Also there is something called " Dyspena " which happens when a person is dying they call it struggling for breath or labored breathing which can be quite uncomfortable.

you can actually have yourself 'put to sleep' as it were, but you would have to be in a terrible state and terminally ill, im not sure if its either Switzerland or Sweden and im not entirely sure on what the requirements are, i just know that there have been people to fly out and have it done, but on a basic level what you are essentially doing is commiting suicide.
I live in W.Europe. And I am involved in accompanying and attending the dying in the local hospes.

There are several possibilities to speed up the dying process :

First there is the "no-action" instruction for medical staff in hospitals, when the patient has asked for that. (NOTE : the patient self, not his/her family). Patients are than either not revived or - while kept under full medical care - left to die without pain (often in deep sleep).

Second there is non-active euthanasy : not taking any medication other than for pain, to speed-up the dying process.

Third there is the active euthanasy : taking a pill or drink that ends up in dying.

Forth there is suicide.

In countries like the Netherlands the law has been upgraded to allow possibilities 1 to 3.
All of course under strict conditions and full accompany of medical caretakers.
The thought behind it is that it is YOUR LIFE, and you may decide in case of a fatal illness how and when you will die.

Those who for (religious or personal) reasons want to leave death to nature are of course fully supported in that process too.

It is just that in Europe we think a little different about God/Gods and provide the patient with more say in his/her own death.

===

I stated this also in another topic here :

The fear for death is NOT caused by the fear for the physical process. That is just like going to sleep, but without ever waking up again.
The fear for death is induced by a life time of religious brain washing, to get and keep the "sheep" in line towards the "goal" of an afterlife in "heaven".

:rolleyes:

Well that is great for Europe but here in the United States people are left to die in the ICU Rooms, and even if nothing is done to speed up the dying process, they are still suffocating for Air because even those in a Coma, can feel, they may not be able to talk but they still can feel all the pain and discomfort. I know because my Supervisor's Father when he was in a Coma, he was having mini strokes, and he was crying and feeling all of the pain. Regardless if someone is on life support, or pulled from life support, or not on life support they still struggle for Breath and do that horrible " Death Rattle " upon dying .

Putting one to Sleep without them feeling that they cannot breath or suffocating for air is the best, but here in the United States, except for Oregon that is not legal.

People travel there from all over to do it, so just because its not legal in america shouldn't really be a factor unless you can't travel for some reason, in which case I hear drowning yourself is painless and apparently you just go too sleep because of the lack of oxygen to your brain.

death rattle
Not everyone dies as horribly as you think and describe. My father died between breaths at a church meeting, and after dessert too! His mother had died peacefully in her sleep. My father's brother died peacefully during a morning nap. My aunt (who had ALS--Lou Gehrig's disease) had trouble breathing toward the end, but there was no gasping or death rattle. I actually look forward to dying--another adventure.

... but here in the United States, except for Oregon that is not legal.
So the real problem at your side is the USA moral, ethical, and political views, and not the dying process itself.
Than you know where to start !

:rolleyes:

people travel there from all over to do it, so just because its not legal in america shouldnt really be a factor unless you can't travel for some reason, in which case i hear drowning youself is painless and apparently you just go too sleep because of the lack of oxygen to your brain.


Actually Drowning is horrible, the people who Struggle for breath as they cannot breath, just try putting your head in the water and don't breath , see how long you can do it before you become so uncomfortable that you jump out of the tub gasping for air.

The Worst Deaths are from Drowning, Suffocation ( Asphyxiation ) and Burning.

Actually Drowning is horrible, the people who Struggle for breath as they cannot breath, just try putting your head in the water and don't breath , see how long you can do it before you become so uncomfortable that you jump out of the tub gasping for air.

The Worst Deaths are from Drowning, Suffocation ( Asphyxiation ) and Burning.
Yea but that's because of survival instinct

So the real problem at your side is the USA moral, ethical, and political views, and not the dying process itself.
Than you know where to start !

No I don't care about the moral's of the USA, when a person is dying or suffering do you think they care about morals ? No the problem is when someone is dying and on their death bed, you don't have the physical strength to just pick yourself up and fly to another country, besides it all costs money, and many insurances do not pay for that. Its just not that simple, The dying person may not even make it through the flight to the other country. Besides I am dealing with the USA because I live hear, I wish the USA had the same thinking as Europe does, as when a person is dying they should be made as comfortable as possible, I mean it is their dignity we are talking about, they are dying anyway so why not go out peaceful. Maybe perhaps I would have to move to the State of Oregon before that situation arrives, because things like that we cannot wait for the last minuet.

maybe because the USA is highly religious and they see it as a sin against god that's why they don't have it, I mean I'm supprised there is even one state that allows it, oh you don't fly out at the last minute you fly out wel in advance

Not everyone dies as horribly as you think and describe. My father died between breaths at a church meeting, and after dessert too! His mother had died peacefully in her sleep. My father's brother died peacefully during a morning nap. My aunt (who had ALS--Lou Gehrig's disease) had trouble breathing toward the end, but there was no gasping or death rattle. I actually look forward to dying--another adventure.

Well my mother did, the Day she was dying, I received a phone call at work saying she was taken to the " ICU " Room at the hospital because she was having problems breathing.
When I went to see her after I left work, she was on some machine taped to her mouth, her hands were ice cold, but her face was still warm. She looked like she was very uncomfortable and in pain, although she was unconscious she could not express herself but that does not mean she did not feel anything. I know the week before that she was in great pain as I was there and she was telling how sick she felt and how much pain she was in. Well that night 3 hours after I left the ICU, she Died. It was a horrible experience for me. I even watched my Cat die, many years back he had Feline Lukemhemia and he was gasping for breath as he was dying and his eyes were all glossy and just staring into space. My experiences with Death have been horrible, with my family and pet. Also it is known that when people are dying they get " Dyspena " which is difficult breathing and very painful at that, then towards the end when they are taking their last breaths they do the " Death Rattle ". It is just awlful what we have to go trough when we are leaving this world. I don't mind leaving, but I want to leave in Peace and tranquality, not in suffering.

maybe because the USA is highly religeous and they see it as a sin against god thats why they dont have it
That's not why active euthenasia is illegal. Passive euthenasia is legal though.

Also it is known that when people are dying they get " Dyspena " which is difficult breathing and very painful at that, then towards the end when they are taking their last breaths they do the " Death Rattle ". It is just awlful what we have to go trough when we are leaving this world. I don't mind leaving, but i want to leave in Peace and tranquality, not in suffering.
Only some do. Perhaps there's a low pain threshold in your family? And why did you allow your cat to suffer? Your family could have done something about that.

maybe because the USA is highly religeous and they see it as a sin against god thats why they dont have it, i mean im supprised there is even one state that allows it, oh you dont fly out at the last minute you fly out wel in advance

Yes there is one State that I believe it is legal here in the USA and that is in the State of Oregon, but that is the only State I heard of so far. The USA considers it Suicide or Assisted Suicide, that is why they don't allow it. But animals are allowed to be put painlessly to sleep, so they don't suffer. I Should think that Humanity should get the same treatment , as I would rather be put to sleep that to die from lack of air, suffocation. :eek:

Only some do. Perhaps there's a low pain threshold in your family? And why did you allow your cat to suffer? Your family could have done something about that.

Actually when my Cat Died my Father had just passed away one week ago, and my mother and myself was in a very bad state of mind. My Cat I had taken to the Vet a few weeks ago, he told me that Cats maybe can through it off, not like people. So I paid the vet 575.00 just to help save my cat, actually Felix my cat belonged to myself and my Father
But you are right, that cat should have been put to sleep. We put our first cat to sleep Smokey who had developed Feline Luhkemia also. That was a very hard time for myself and my mother, when my Dad passed, then right after I lost my cat.

Well my mother had her Leg amputated from Gangerne, that is painful in itself. She was a Diabetic and was on Dialysis for failing kidneys, But no one in my family either on my mothers side or fathers side died peacefully. Actually even the ones who die in their sleep we don't know what they feel, as even people in Coma's can feel pain, just because they cannot express it does not mean they are peaceful. Actually I don't think there is any peaceful way to leave this world. Except if we are put to sleep like the animals are.

In Sorrow,
Sorry to hear about your losses.

I agree with wondergirl, you have a lot of unresolved issues,concerning your losses and the information you seem to have acquired regarding death.
Death is different for different people,not everyone is struggling for breathe as they die,not everyone suffers during death,and we as onlookers seeing our loved ones dies maybe more painful to us than to the person dying.

Regarding your fear of the "death rattle" as you keep mentioning,you need professional help.

In Sorrow,
Sorry to hear about your losses.

I agree with wondergirl, you have a lot of unresolved issues,concerning your losses and the information you seem to have acquired regarding death.
Death is different for different people,not everyone is struggling for breathe as they die,not everyone suffers during death,and we as onlookers seeing our loved ones dies maybe more painful to us than to the person dying.

Regarding your fear of the "death rattle" as you keep mentioning,you need professional help.

I Believe I do need professional help, because it is stoping me from living my life, I am waking up with my heart racing in my chest, at night I don't sleep, and I am even fearful at work, It is interfering with my quality of life. Yes I need to find a good support group perhaps or some Bereavement counseling, but I just don't know where to look . Actually to remove the fear of the Dying process, is hard because since we cannot stop it, the fear is only more real as each day passes, and I am terrified to inherit my mother's illness or just to die of Suffocation.

In Sorrow,
Support groups are not that hard to find if you prefer the web support groups like these-
Lightning Strike Pet Loss Support :: Death of Pet, Sick Pet, Pet Loss Grief, Message Board, Chat Room (http://www.lightning-strike.com/)
Grief Support Groups, Resources, Coping with Grief, Dealing with Death. H.O.P.E. Unit, Los Angeles California (http://www.hopeunit.org/index.html)


According to the following article,you maybe just experiencing part of the grieving process.
---------------------
UCB: Responding to Death: Grief and Loss (http://death-response.chance.berkeley.edu/griefandloss.html)
II. Stages of Grief

Within the first few weeks to months after a death, you may find yourself riding on a roller coaster of shifting emotions. Most people go through these stages not in linear steps, but in unpredictable waves-- moving through one stage to the next and sometimes shifting back. Some people will also experience certain phases but not others. Here are several common, typical grief reactions:

* SHOCK/DISBELIEF
This is the numbing, disorienting sense that the death has not really happened, not really occurred. This reaction can be intensified and complicated if the death is sudden, violent, or unanticipated. Your mind may be telling you "there must be some mistake," or "this can't be true." These symptoms typically last from several hours to several days.

* ANGER
Your anger may be targeted at a number of sources. You may feel waves of anger at the doctors who treated your loved one, anger at your family members for not rallying together, anger at God over what seems senseless or unjust, even anger at yourself or the person who died and "left" you.

* GUILT
You may blame yourself for not doing more, not being there enough, or not being there when the death happened. You may feel regret over "unfinished business" -- conflicts you and the deceased never resolved, or feelings between the two of you that were never fully discussed or shared.

* SADNESS
You may experience a deep sense of loss. There may be moments when you find yourself at a loss for words, weeping, or bursting uncontrollably into tears.

* FEAR
There may be anxiety or panic; fears about carrying on, fears about the future. If the person who died was an adult (partner, sibling, parent), it may bring up fears about your own sense of mortality or sense of being left behind.
* DEPRESSION
You may go through periods of melancholy, or "blueness," where you feel inclined to withdraw or isolate yourself. You may lose interest in your usual activities, or feel helpless or hopeless.
-------------------------------

No i don't care about the moral's of the USA, when a person is dying or suffering do you think they care about morals ?
I did not ask you if you cared about that or not. I stated that the real problem at your side is the USA moral, ethical, and political views, and not the dying process itself. Weekly I see people dying, but most of the time their suffering is mainly from fear for dying, and not caused by pain (pain can be taken to an extreme low level by medicines).


No the problem is when someone is dying and on their death bed, you don't have the physical strength to just pick yourself up and fly to another country, besides it all costs money, and many insurances do not pay for that.
Here you just make some phone calls, are interviewed by a psychiater and a lawyer, and you can make - if approved - an arrangement with a medical specialist in euthanasia on date and time. At home even, if you prefer (and most do that).


Besides i am dealing with the USA because i live hear, i wish the USA had the same thinking as Europe does, as when a person is dying they should be made as comfortable as possible, I mean it is their dignity we are talking about, they are dying anyway so why not go out peaceful. Maybe perhaps i would have to move to the State of Oregon before that situation arrives, because things like that we cannot wait for the last minuet.
If you have a problem with the fear of dying by people (the topic here) , than address the cause of that fear. I can not help that that is - in your case - caused by the USA mindset. Just start doing something about it !

Do you think that in Europe these changes in law did introduce themselves? Years of pressure were required before governments started to listen to the demands. Again : start doing something about it !

Of course I realize that this does not solve the problem of your present feelings due to recent losses.
I wish you strength in coming to terms with your feelings !

:)

If you don't die a quick death, the very best way to go, then you will be lying down and gradually stopping breathing. Medical science will make your death painless. Don't fight it, just let go.

Just relax and let go, as the oxygen in your blood decreases more and more, you will have an altered state of mind and then, slip away quietly into nothingness. Peaceful.

Hello Mary Sue !

The problem here seems to be multiple : one is about getting to terms with recent losses.
Another one is about the facilities open to the dying for euthanasia.
Again another is about the lack of such facilities due to the local ethical and political views.

I am glad to live here, and be able to control - if necessary - when and how I will die, if there ever will be a need for that.

:)

Post #5 : progunr disagrees: "If you really read her post, you would know that her fear is not of the afterlife, it is of the dying process itself".

In my reply I clearly stated that in my activities as unpaid volunteer compagnion and attendant in a local hospes, I meet many people at the end of their life. The strange thing is that the more religious people are, the higher their fear is for death. Not for death as a physical act, but for what happens after death.

So I referred to and addressed the actual dying process. But my findings as a specialist in these matters are that it is NOT the physical dying process that produces the fear of dying for most people. That fear is caused by the consequences of years of religious brain washing and inducing that fear to force believers to follow the suggested religious lines.

If progunr has a problem with my findings - findings that are based on actual working in a hospes, and clearly against his/her religious views - than he/she should address that. Not by rating my post negatively.

:)

If you don't die a quick death, the very best way to go, then you will be lying down and gradually stopping breathing. Medical science will make your death painless. Don't fight it, just let go.

Just relax and let go, as the oxygen in your blood decreases more and more, you will have an altered state of mind and then, slip away quietly into nothingness. Peaceful.

Ah I wish it were that easy, but its not, I watched my mother and her breathing difficulties were very bad, you see when you are dying your Respitatory system shuts down, and yes you get what we call " Dyspena " labored breathing and gasping for air, which causes later on the " Death Rattle " which is most heard from people in the dying process.

Ok we all know we have to Die someday, there is no if's an's or buts about it. But there is an Actual " Fear " of the Physical Aspect of the Dying Process. I am not afraid of Death itself per-say, but just the fact of Dying in pain, struggling for my last Breath, Labored Breathing which is very painful and uncomfortable, and that horrible " Death Rattle " that we do upon death.

Now knowing that we all have to die someday does not remove the " Fear " of The dying process, actually it only increases it, knowing that we all must die. I am 47 years old and i see that Death is coming closer and closer, and i just watched my mother die of a horrible sickness that i am afraid to get.

Now is there anyway that one can die a Peaceful and Painless Death without doing that Death Rattle and struggling for breath, that thought just terrifies me ? :eek: :confused:
I am so sorry for all that you've been through, but your mothers fate, as sad as it was is not yours from the day we are born we are also dying there can be beauty in both remember the body dies the spirit lives on:)

Ah i wish it were that easy, but its not, i watched my mother and her breathing difficulties were very bad, you see when you are dying your Respitatory system shuts down, and yes you get what we call " Dyspena " labored breathing and gasping for air, which causes later on the " Death Rattle " which is most heard from people in the dying process.
I understand your feelings and sympathize with them, but the question remains : why did your mother had to go through this all? Why did nobody assist to end it before getting to this situation? Was it her wish to go to the bitter end? Or was it that no such facilities were available?

:)

Assisted Dying is not allowed hear in NY, we were not even allowed to take her home, they kept her against our will, because she was a Dialysis patient and needed her treatments 3 times a week. When her breathing became labored they took her to the ICU room, the fact is before she was taken to the ICU Room she already had trouble breathing at that point she was already suffering as she developed Resipatory failure, so all they could do was take her too the ICU Room and monitor her condition, until she finally passed on three hours after I left. When I saw her she was as cold as ice, her hands and her arms, were already turning a dark color, I knew she was dying, she was unconscious and did not even know I was there, but I was crying so much even if she woke up I probably would not have been much comfort to her. She had her leg amputated due to developing Gangerne, that is when her condition became much worse, then it all started to go downhill from there.

Assisted Dying is not allowed here in NY...
Yes, that says it all. And it shows the religious-ethical-political component that prevents people from living (and dying) the way they would select if they were free to decide for that themselves.

There are two approaches for you to react to this for your so horrible experience :

- learn to resign to the present general line of thought - that as human being you have no influence on the way you (have to) depart.
- start campaigning against that line of thought : become an advocate of euthanasia (within whatever level
- of restriction). This in memory of your mother and to prevent others to have to go through the same "hell".

I am sure the first alternative is the least demanding, though certainly not the most satisfying.

I wish you much strength in the process of coping with this experience.

:)

Yes, that says it all. And it shows the religious-ethical-political component that prevents people from living (and dying) the way they would select if they were free to decide for that themselves.

There are two approaches for you to react to this for your so horrible experience :

- learn to resign to the present general line of thought - that as human being you have no influence on the way you (have to) depart.
- start campaigning against that line of thought : become an advocate of euthanasia (within whatever level
- of restriction). This in memory of your mother and to prevent others to have to go through the same "hell".

I am sure the first alternative is the least demanding, though certainly not the most satisfying.

I wish you much strenght in the process of coping with this experience.

:)

Yes you are absolutely right, as a human being we have no control over the way we die, that is what makes the " Fear " even more real, because I can't control it. So since I know what to expect I am terrified of it, it's like a prisoner on death row, he know he is going to be executed he can't control it, but deep inside the Fear is very real and it cannot controlled

Also me being an " Advocate of Euthanasia " would be great I am all for it, but it would take a lot more than just me saying this law needs to be past, even if I can start an entire rally in favor for it, the Stupid USA government sees it as Suicide, so they would not even pass that law. The only sure way would be if was to move to the State of Oregon, and hopefully by that time they will still be practicing it.

Yes you are absolutely right, as a human being we have no control over the way we die, that is what makes the " Fear " even more real, because i can't control it. So since i know what to expect i am terrified of it, it's like a prisoner on death row, he know he is going to be executed he can't control it, but deep inside the Fear is very real and it cannot controlled

Also me being an " Advocate of Euthanasia " would be great i am all for it, but it would take alot more than just me saying this law needs to be past, even if i can start an entire rally in favor for it, the Stupid USA government sees it as Suicide, so they would not even pass that law. The only sure way would be if was to move to the State of Oregon, and hopefully by that time they will still be practicing it.
I disagree I think that we can control how we die, up to a certain point, yes there are more... horrible ways to die, and a lot of unexpected ones, but if we get to the point where we can feel that our time is soon then we can choose how we end it, carry on down the path of nature or end it by our own means, it's the unexpected ones that catch us off guard, but what I'm getting from you is that you want to be able to kill yourself legally (tell me if I'm wrog), but really it would be taking a life and that's murder and although many criminals would hope they change it from being against the law am afraid I just don't see that happening.

i disagree i think that we can control how we die, up to a certain point, yes there are more .......horrible ways to die, and a lot of unexpected ones, but if we get to the point where we can feel that our time is soon then we can choose how we end it, carry on down the path of nature or end it by our own means, its the unexpected ones that catch us off guard, but what im getting from you is that you want to be able to kill yourself legally (tell me if im wrog), but really it would be taking a life and thats murder and although many criminals would hope they change it from being against the law am afraid i just dont see that happening.


I actually don't see it as murder, because if someone is already on their Death bed, they are already dying. So its just a matter of making their passing more peacefully and without pain. I mean a person has the right to die with Dignity, and as their last wish on this earth, why not help them go out painless. The law should have Mercy on the dying, because after all they are dying, weather they are helped to die or not, they are dying anyway, so I don't see it as murder. But then this is just my opinion. Why do you think animals are put to sleep? So they don't suffer, is it murder? I don't think so because they are doing anyway. Not putting them to sleep will not stop them from dying, it will only make the pass peacefully, that is why people put their pets to sleep. I think we as humans should have the same right, to die with dignity, as it is bad enough our illness has kept us in pain, but at least our last wish should be carried out. Anyway like I said its just my opinion, and it would be my wish as well. The State of Oregon has already made it legal,
So why not make it legal in New York too and other states? It's legal in Europe .

Death is my 2nd biggest fear right after flying.

The only thing I have found that helps is putting it out of my mind. When I start to dwell on it (the what ifs and whys) I panic.

It's not as hard as it seems after a while. I simply put it out of my mind... I can talk about it, but don't think about it...

Clear as mud right? LOL

I actually don't see it as murder, because if someone is already on their Death bed, they are already dying. So its just a matter of making their passing more peacefully and without pain. I mean a person has the right to die with Dignity, and as their last wish on this earth, why not help them go out painless. The law should have Mercy on the dying, because after all they are dying, weather they are helped to die or not, they are dying anyway, so i don't see it as murder. But then this is just my opinion. Why do you think animals are put to sleep ?? So they don't suffer, is it murder ?? i don't think so because they are doing anyway. Not putting them to sleep will not stop them from dying, it will only make the pass peacefully, that is why people put their pets to sleep. I think we as humans should have the same right, to die with dignity, as it is bad enough our illness has kept us in pain, but at least our last wish should be carried out. Anyway like i said its just my opinion, and it would be my wish as well. The State of Oregon has already made it legal,
so why not make it legal in new york too and other states ?? It's legal in Europe .
I know you don't see it as murder (and I'm sure many killers would say they were dying anyway) but seriously I'm the same if somebody wishes to be euthanised so that they don't sufferi think that they should be allowed to do so. There are a lot of complicated issues with it though like I said before I believe the US being largely christian isn't helping, but another is that people could kill the elderly like this and it could be very difficult to prove that they killed them on purpose, harold shipman comes to mind, he killed older women by drugs and if it was legal here to euthanise people if they wanted to be all he had to do was get them to sign a form asking for it in a drug induced state and he might have gotten away with it, especially since people tend to leave something for their doctors/people who look after them in their will, things could get very ugly seeing as humans are so greedy, and I think thas another reason why most countries don't allow it. But s you say Oregon seems to have found a way to allow it.

Death is my 2nd biggest fear right after flying.

The only thing I have found that helps is putting it out of my mind. When I start to dwell on it (the what ifs and whys) I panic.

It's not as hard as it seems after a while. I simply put it out of my mind.... I can talk about it, but don't think about it....

Clear as mud right? LOL

My Dear you are lucky that you can put it out of your mind, I never used to think about it before, but its just that I just lost my mother, and now I am all alone in this world. Also my age I am already 47 years old, soon I will be 50 years old in 3 years from now. I will be half a century old, and that time has gone by so fast. When I look back I say where did all of the 47 years go? So that means Death will come for me just as fast, and knowing that I am just terrified, my mothers death only made it more of a reality how Death is apart of us, and each year that people celebrate their birthday they are actually getting a year closer to their own deaths, that is why I don't celebrate growing older, as the times gets closer and closer to do that old " Death Rattle " on the Agony of our death beds.

Death is my 2nd biggest fear right after flying.

The only thing I have found that helps is putting it out of my mind. When I start to dwell on it (the what ifs and whys) I panic.

It's not as hard as it seems after a while. I simply put it out of my mind.... I can talk about it, but don't think about it....

Clear as mud right? LOL
:) lol there's too much to think about in this life, so just hang the sense of it and just get through life one day at a time :)

Hi IS... like you I lost my dear Mum( bless her ) not long ago and my dear Dad is also gone, making me an orphan... hence the user name.

As you say... the watching and remembering is too much to bare.. I won't go into my details they are to painful, I know you'll understand.

Like you I have all the same problems... sleeping, flashbacks and much more.
The shortness of breath you speak of is also there, which is caused by anxiety.

I promise you it does get better and easier to cope with in time, but in the mean time you must visit your GP, you need some help with the sleeping and anxiety. If you can get some decent sleep it will help your mind to heal and deal with day to day living.



You think you are alone but trust me when I say your Mum will not be far from you.Do you talk to her when going about your daily life, I do and it really does help, I also go to her resting place and fill her in on all the gossip etc... I don't really care if people think it's strange I know she hears me. There are several people where I go that do the same.

Perhaps you might find some councilling might help, just talking about your fears will clear your mind, making less heavy.

Try and focus on the good times you spent with your Mum... the time you shared and the laughs you had, if you get the flashback pictures replace them with a good picture of you Mum, I know how hard it is, but please try for your own peace of mind, your Mum would want to look down on a smile and not a tear.

Once you have some help with sleep etc... you will find that the concentrating on dying will fade into the back ground.

I wish I could help you more... please go see your GP and talk about your feelings.

Takecare

... I mean a person has the right to die with Dignity, and as their last wish on this earth, why not help them go out painless...
Precisely. Dignity is the norm here.
And so far I have seen lot's of words, but not one single valid reasoning as to why people are not allowed to decide for themselves when "to flip the switch".

All that prevents the introduction of euthanasia is the religious influence in political matters.
If someone - for religious reasons - does not want euthanasia for him/her, than don't ! Nobody should be forced. But for those who want that : WHY NOT ?

What VALID argument is there against that format of euthanasia ?

Hi IS......like you i lost my dear Mum( bless her ) not long ago and my dear Dad is also gone, making me an orphan ...hence the user name.

As you say... the watching and remembering is to much to bare..i won't go into my details they are to painful, i know you'll understand.

Like you i have all the same problems...sleeping, flashbacks and much more.
The shortness of breath you speak of is also there, which is caused by anxiety.

I promise you it does get better and easier to cope with in time, but in the mean time you must visit your GP, you need some help with the sleeping and anxiety. If you can get some decent sleep it will help your mind to heal and deal with day to day living.



You think you are alone but trust me when i say your Mum will not be far from you.Do you talk to her when going about your daily life, i do and it really does help, i also go to her resting place and fill her in on all the gossip etc... i don't really care if people think it's strange i know she hears me. There are several people where i go that do the same.

Perhaps you might find some councilling might help, just talking about your fears will clear your mind, making less heavy.

Try and focus on the good times you spent with your Mum....the time you shared and the laughs you had, if you get the flashback pictures replace them with a good picture of you Mum, i know how hard it is, but please try for your own peace of mind, your Mum would want to look down on a smile and not a tear.

Once you have some help with sleep etc... you will find that the concentrating on dieing will fade into the back ground.

I wish i could help you more...please go see your GP and talk about your feelings.

Takecare

Thanks for your answer, you know I always talk to to my mothers picture, I have it on my altar along with my Dads, But the thing is I don't believe she hears me. I have asked her Spirit to come to me, even in a dream so I may talk to her and tell her how much I miss and love her, but so far she doesn't come to me. According to the Bible, The Dead are not
Alive but are sleeping, until the day of Christ's return which will be the 2nd coming of Christ. The Dead have no memory of the living all of their Love or Hate of anything in this world is perished. So sad to say , we can speak to them but they cannot hear us, because Christ has made them fall asleep, until he comes to judge the living and the dead.

Ok what is a GP? Do you mean general practitioner ? A Doctor ? A Doctor will only tell me what everyone else tells me, Death is apart of life you have to accept it, we all have to die some day, And nothing we can do to prevent. Then he will give me some pills for either Sleep or Anti-Depresents, and that's it. But The " Fear " of Death is still there.
Saying that we all have to die is something I already know, and that only makes my fear even worse. So actually I don't think a doctor can help, because what he would tells me, anyone else from my family or co-workers would tell me the same thing. I guess only God
Can remove this Fear, only he has the power, and if he wants to he can wake up my mothers Spirit to come to me, to give me some peace, other wise I will just suffer till the end of them.
:(

Precisely. Dignity is the norm here.
And so far I have seen lot's of words, but not one single valid reasoning as to why people are not allowed to decide for themselves when "to flip the switch".

All that prevents the introduction of euthanasia is the religious influence in political matters.
If someone - for religious reasons - does not want euthanasia for him/her, than don't ! Nobody should be forced. But for those who want that : WHY NOT ?

What VALID argument is there against that format of euthanasia ?

The only Argument they have is they consider it assisted suicide, which I don't. They perfer to wait for the body to shut off on its own, regardless to how much people are suffering.
As they feel by doing that they consider it murder. That is why that Doctor Korvikian got arrested for so many years they called him " Doctor Death " . But actually he helped people that were dying anyway, just go more peaceful and painless just like when they put the animals to sleep. To that is not murder, it is just being humane.

The only Argument they have is they consider it assisted sucide, which i don't.
So you agree that there is no VALID argument against euthanasia.

:)

So you agree that there is no VALID argument against euthanasia.

:)

Yes I agree I see no valid argument against Euthanasia, I wish by the time I am ready to Die New York will make it legal to do it, just in case I would need it. Other than that the only other way out would be if the end of the world came before I died, the 2nd coming of Christ, which clearly states that those who are alive will be taken up in the clouds and will be together with the Lord and the Dead who resurrected in Chirst. At least in that way who ever is alive and believes in Christ, would not have to die.

I have known people who have been dying... to be helped on their way, the dose of morphine is increased enabling the person to be pain free so that they may slip away peacefully.

Although this is not suppose to happen it does,and every one knows it does.I do think if you wish to end your life, the decision should be yours and yours alone. The only objection I would have is... what if the person suddenly began to get better, it does happen despite medical opinion, new medication is being discovered all the time, for all manner of deceases, so I always have that lingering doubt.

Many peoples opinions on this subject are down to their religious beliefs,however I think the good guy upstairs ( GOD) would understand if the person ending their life was in severe pain leaving no quality of life for this person.

Yes GP is a doctor and yes they probably will give you pills to help you, this is a difficult time right now, it is natural to grieve it is all part of the healing process but a little help until you are stronger I feel would be beneficial, obviously it has to be your choice.

I am so sorry that you don't believe your Mum can hear you, obviously you have to stand by what you believe and I respect that, I can only add that I have not seen my Mum either but I have heard her call my name, I have seen my Dad though and I have spoken to him.

I think they come of their own free will you cannot call them, they will come naturally to you, I have had many eperiences that prove to me that there is a spiritual life without doubt, what I have seen leaves me no doubt, I am only sorry that you cannot gain some comfort from this.

I do still think that you need some sort of councilling... we all think of death and dying but try not to think about it, where as you seem to have become obssesive about death which is not normal behaviour... try and speak to a berievement counciller or maybe your minister, I am sure they will help.

Your only 47 you have many years in front of you yet, so try not to dwell on the fact that soon you will be 50... there is still 3 years to go.



Takecare

The panic attacks you describe could be a real medical problem. You could have a heart valve problem, even bacteria from your teeth can cause small blockage and a leaky heart valve. I saw a dr. years ago and she prescibed calcium channel blockers (which didn't work for me) and then beta blockers. After that the whole racing thoughts can't breathe pain in chest worried about dying thing went away completely, it was like I was a whole new person. So get a good medical checkup, especially if family history of diabetes.
Also it's important to remember if a person is approaching death like you speak of, they are very likely unconscious which is a whole lot like being asleep, you aren't aware of your surroundings. The brain and organs start to shut down and you go into a sugar rush or intoxicated state because the body is not removing the normal waste products. The limbs may be numb it's like when a person is out in exteme cold and starts to fall asleep.
I do not agree with "putting them to sleep" I made that decision once for one of my dogs that was very old. The injection I understand just paralyzes the muscles so they can't move or breathe and they die of oxygen starvation. My dog never got rigor mortis after the injection. The vet pronounced him dead because there were no vital signs. For all I know I buried him alive. That still haunts me. I would never do it again.

The only objection i would have is ....what if the person suddenly began to get better, it does happen dispite medical opinion....
This suggests somehow that euthanasia would be available on impulse. That is clearly not the case. Here in Europe you first get a physician, than a psychiater, and last a lawyer next to your bed, all making sure that you have a terminal disease, pain, and the wish to pull your own "plug".

If you read the story about In Sorrow's mother, you will know that for her there was no longer any chance to get better. And that her mother was in great pain and distress.
Than why not allow her the dignity to depart in the way she wanted? Why did she have to go through all that pain? Why are people forced by religious fanatics - through their influence on US politics - to die like beasts ? (actually they die worse than beasts, as beasts at least get their injection...

:rolleyes:

#5 : Aliboosh disagrees : "If your not religious you could still fear nothingness"

You may disagree... But I work at a hospes where I see people dying on a weekly basis.
In general (and I can assure you this is correct) the majority of those fearing death do not do that in view of the nothingness. Do you fear sleeping each night because that is several hours of nothingness?

Under normal circumstances (being healthy) nobody looks forward to his/her death.
Mainly because it is final, without any way back.
People who fear death do that because they were brainwashed by religion to fear death.
And religion does that, because it is a way to keep control over the flock, to keep people in line with empty promisses of heaven and empty threats of hell.

Christian people who fear death fear Final Judgement and hell. Not nothingness.

:rolleyes:

Well my mother passed away after a long illness of 10 years She had Alzheimers'. She had a bad reaction to some medication and coded in cardiac arrest but was resuscitated and rushed to a hospital. I sat there with my father as he struggled over his decision whether to sign a no code order for her after this. A priest gave her the anointing of the sick or maybe it was the last rites and asked her if she loved Jesus. My mother had not spoken to anyone in years because of her illness, clearly said, "yes I do" I can't think she could have been afraid
My father broke down in tears as he realized if she held nothing against God, he had no reason to and he needed to get on the right path if they were going to see each other again on the other side(she passed away 3 years later)

The panic attacks you describe could be a real medical problem. You could have a heart valve problem, even bacteria from your teeth can cause small blockage and a leaky heart valve. I saw a dr. years ago and she prescibed calcium channel blockers (which didn't work for me) and then beta blockers. After that the whole racing thoughts can't breathe pain in chest worried about dying thing went away completely, it was like I was a whole new person. So get a good medical checkup, especially if family history of diabetes.
Also it's important to remember if a person is approaching death like you speak of, they are very likely unconscious which is a whole lot like being asleep, you aren't aware of your surroundings. The brain and organs start to shut down and you go into a sugar rush or intoxicated state because the body is not removing the normal waste products. The limbs may be numb it's like when a person is out in exteme cold and starts to fall asleep.
I do not agree with "putting them to sleep" I made that decision once for one of my dogs that was very old. The injection I understand just paralyzes the muscles so they can't move or breathe and they die of oxygen starvation. My dog never got rigor mortis after the injection. The vet pronounced him dead because there were no vital signs. For all I know I buried him alive. That still haunts me. I would never do it again.

Well my mother was completely aware, she was having difficulty breathing so they rushed her to the ICU, she just did not fall into a peaceful sleep and peacefully dirft away, I wish that were the Case, she struggled for breath that was why she was put on a machine in the ICU to help her breath . And I fear that happening to me.

If you look on line, they tell you the signs that a person is approaching Death, and one of them is " Dyspena " which is difficult breathing like my mother had. And also the dropping of the blood pressure, not wanting to eat, feeling naushas, these she had a week before she died, then last but not least is the " Awlful Death Rattle ", just the thought of the dying process terrifies me alone, as I would not want to die from Suffocation or not being able to breathe.

I have known people who have been dying... to be helped on their way, the dose of morphine is increased enabling the person to be pain free so that they may slip away peacefully.

Although this is not suppose to happen it does,and every one knows it does.I do think if you wish to end your life, the decision should be yours and yours alone. The only objection i would have is ....what if the person suddenly began to get better, it does happen dispite medical opinion, new medication is being discovered all the time, for all manner of deceases, so i always have that lingering doubt.

Many peoples opinions on this subject are down to their religeous beliefs,however i think the good guy upstairs ( GOD) would understand if the person ending their life was in severe pain leaving no quality of life for this person.

Yes GP is a doctor and yes they probably will give you pills to help you, this is a difficult time right now, it is natural to grieve it is all part of the healing process but a little help until you are stronger i feel would be beneficial, obviously it has to be your choice.

I am so sorry that you don't believe your Mum can hear you, obviously you have to stand by what you believe and i respect that, i can only add that i have not seen my Mum either but i have heard her call my name, i have seen my Dad though and i have spoken to him.

I think they come of their own free will you cannot call them, they will come naturally to you, i have had many eperiences that prove to me that there is a spiritual life without doubt, what i have seen leaves me no doubt, i am only sorry that you cannot gain some comfort from this.

I do still think that you need some sort of councilling....we all think of death and dying but try not to think about it, where as you seem to have become obssesive about death which is not normal behaviour......try and speak to a berievement counciller or maybe your minister, i am sure they will help.

Your only 47 you have many years in front of you yet, so try not to dwell on the fact that soon you will be 50...there is still 3 years to go.



Takecare

My friend you are lucky that you at least heard your mums voice, and you said you saw you dad and spoke to him, how was this in a Dream , or while you were awake?

I have heard of people Speaking to the Dead, but I have never seen my mother or my father I have prayed for their spirit to come fourth so I can talk to the, I even asked Jesus if he may please give me that favor, I go to church and pray to him and I pray also in my house, and I have never Seen my Dad or my mom, my Dad has been dead 21 years now, my mom just died on July 25th. Unfortunately the Dead are just Dead, I wish they could appear and speak to me. But according to the Bible the Dead are asleep until Christ comes
So they can't hear us, sad to say. Its ashamed that Christ keeps the Spirits of the Dead away from the loved ones, even though they are dead in Body, at least he should allow their spirit to come and comfort the living it would make things so much easier. Although it still would not remove my fear of the dying process, but I would feel much more comforted knowing that, my mom and dads Spirit was hear and they can speak to me.

Well my mother passed away after a long illness of 10 years ...
That's a nice story about your parents. And I am sorry to hear of your mother. But it has nothing to do with the topic.
Nobody here suggests that at a certain moment people will no longer be treated to get healthy again. Of course not. If the patients wants to go on : that is his/her wish, and that wish has to be respected and honored. Nobody - I repeat NOBODY (including those on death-row) should be forced against their will to die, other than from natural causes.

Once more : the following ONLY refers to a patient with a fatal illness :

You want to go on living to the natural end for personal or religious reasons, including pain and distress : Fine, it is your decision !
But if anyone else wants to end his/her life for personal reasons, than that should be fine too. Nobody has anything to do with what others believe or prefer.
It is their life, and they are the only one who has the right to decide what to do with that life.

I respect your decision to include your religious beliefs in this matter.
But you should respect my and other people's decision to end my/their life the way I/they want.

:rolleyes:

If you look on line, they tell you the signs that a person is approaching Death, and one of them is " Dyspena " which is difficult breathing like my mother had. And also the dropping of the blood pressure, not wanting to eat, feeling naushas, these she had a week before she died, then last but not least is the " Awlful Death Rattle ", just the thought of the dying process terrifies me alone, as i would not want to die from Suffocation or not being able to breathe.
Yes I understand what you are saying, your mother suffered from diabetes and could have had diabetic nerve pain, basically the sugars that her body couldn't handle built up in her tissues just like the uric acid crystals build up in the tissues of a person suffering from gout and they experience intense pain. There is no guarantee that you would suffer the same thing. And when a person's kidneys are affected by the overuse, trying to get rid of sugar, they start to fail which causes a build up of fluids in the lungs, just like a person with a bad case of the flu has to keep coughing to get rid of fluid in the lungs. Or heart trouble could cause excess fluid. Diabetes is an awful disease. This death rattle that you are so centered on, do you realize that the person is already dead when that happens. Just like CPR can put air into the lungs of a person who has stopped breathing, having the air go out of our lungs is normal. We have to be alive and breathing to draw the air back in, just like you have to blow up a balloon but the air will come back out of it on its own.
Your friend Wildandblue does not need to look up death on line, he has experienced it firsthand more times than he cares to think about when he was in combat. Trust me, living is a LOT harder. Any guy can die for his country, it takes a lot of work to come back alive and deal with it.

Be at Peace, dear Friend. You have had to endure the death of your mother, and that has affected you profoundly. In our culture, we do not have many good rituals to help us accept the process of dying. It is often not well handled for either the person dying or those who are close to her. Much of our medical technology is designed out of fear of death, not acceptance of it. We try to cut ourselves off from it, numb ourselves to it, sanitize it, and what you experienced is the consequence.

Trust your heart, and your body. You say in your signature line, "Only in death can we be our true selves." This is true indeed. Being born (and giving birth, from the point of view of the mother), having sexual intercourse, and dying are the three great quintessentially human experiences. In the physical process of these acts, we confront the most fundamental ground of our being as humans, and in those processes the boundaries that separate us as individuals from the rest of the universe are erased for a moment. Each of these processes is a labor of sorts on a physical level. It is hard work for the body, an effort, a strain, that causes transformation in breath and blood and bone. In this world we have different nationalities, ethnicities, socio-economic and educational classes, different jobs, different customs, different beliefs. But in the acts of birth, sex, and dying we share an experience with all other humans everywhere upon the earth, and with our most remote ancestors and distant descendants. These acts are hard, yes. Painful and upsetting they may be. Definitely messy, sweaty, awkward. All the things our society tries to prudishly deny.

You had the courage to be born. In your infant body was the wisdom of how to do it, just as your mother knew how to give birth to you, and went through that experience that is a courage and a radiance beyond the knowledge of any man. Trust, too, that your body, composed of atoms that have been taking and letting go of forms organic and inorganic for five billion years, knows well how to die, when it is time.

My wife "went natural" in the birth of our children, and described it as "a hoot." That is somewhat rare. It is also rare, especially in our culture, to find men and women who experience dying in a way in which their sense of wonder eclipses whatever fear or pain they feel. But it is not unheard of. Our society is beginning to realize that natural childbirth is a peak experience of female empowerment. Women have the right to fully experience this miracle, instead of being pressured to become helpless and dehabilitated and sedated, and that is better for both the mother and the child unless a specific medical condition prevents it. But our culture is still backward about dying. Surely there is a place for analgesic medication. But many of today's doctors use too many procedures to regulate and sanitize the dying process, and far too much sedation, leaving the dying person lost in a morphine haze, deprived of dignity.

Birth, sex, death. In the end how can we say of these things that they are good or bad? They are. We are born, we breathe the free air, we break bread and drink wine and water with our loved ones, we have sex, and we die. In the moment of our deaths and in the process of dying that leads up to it, no less and no more than in those other human activities, is all the weakness, the limitedness, the helplessness, and the magnificent glory of our existence as human beings.

It is all right to be terrified. Being brave does not mean not having fear; it means going ahead despite your fear. Trust that when the time comes, you will be brave. You will go through the process with dignity, showing nothing but love and compassion and understanding for your failing body. Your body may experience struggle, tension, air hunger. But you will be able to say to it, It's all right. Relax. You don't need to keep struggling, you don't need air any more. I won't force you to hold on when it is time to let go.

Trust that you can do that. And then let it go. We none of us know when La Senora Calavera will come to us. It may be years and years for you. For now, be open to the sunlight on your face and the wind and the water and the good earth. Reach out in compassion and love to everyone around you, having learned through the traumatic experience of your mother's death that we are all brothers and sisters, we are all given this world, this life, and we all die as humans. All boundaries we place between each other are false. Let your grieving give you wisdom, let it make of you a person who can bring healing and peace to all you meet.

May you be Blessed,

Alder