Science is only beginning to catch up on what God had man record in the Bible from ancient times. The Bible never claims to be a Science text book but when it does speak on nature, biology physics etc it is absolutely accurate. So what has taken man thousands of years to gain wisedom of, has been in the Bible all along. Here are just a few examples..


1. Numbering the stars.

Genesis 15:5 says the stars cannot be numbered by man. Jeremiah 33:32 explains the stars are beyond numbering. And yet before the telescope was invented, man was numbering the stars. Hipparchus said in 150 B.C. there are exactly 1,026 stars. 150 years later a Roman named Ptolemy said there are 1,056, Kepler counted 1,006. Since Galileo invented the telescope in 1608, we continued to discover more stars. Up until the last few hundred years until the discovery of the telescope there were only 6,000 stars seen by the naked eye. A modern telescope of 200 inches estimates 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. And there are not millions but billions of such galaxies. The Biblical scientific insights were far in advance of four modern day science. Today, with our technology and high powered telescopes in space and astronomers estimate that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy with an additional 20-100 billion galaxies in the universe!

2. The Bible had refuted the flat earth theory long before scientists actually disproved it
Isaiah 40:20 says "He sits enthroned above the sphere of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." For centuries, man believed that the earth was flat. Christopher Columbus was criticized for setting sail to the other side of the earth, they expected Columbus to sail off the edge of the earth. When people thought it was flat God told us it was round. If they only read the Bible...

3. The Earth's Suspension in Space
Job 26:7 says "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Early man thought Atlas, a huge turtle or elephants held up the earth. Today we know it is gravity that holds the planets and stars in their orbits making them appear to be hung on nothing.

4. The water Cycle
In recent history science taught that most clouds are formed by evaporation of water from the ocean, but the Bible recorded this centuries ago. Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 says "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. "
“The phrase, 'the wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course' is an accurate and astonishing description of the circular flow of air around the earth, called the 'jet stream,' well known to anyone who watches the evening news weather reports
Job 36:27 "For He draws up the droplets of water, They distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down, They drip upon man abundantly." The condensation and evaporation only known in recent years.


5. Oceanic Hydrothermal vents
These are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
Job 38:16 tells us there are springs in the sea (this was not known until 1913 when they found underground rivers).
Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened"

6. Ocean Currents
... and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. (Psalms 8:8) we now know there are ocean currents and that many fish swim the paths of these currents.

7. The Bible also says that each star is unique.


1 Corinthians 15:41 says
"There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.

Just to say a few...

Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all :)

Science is only beginning to catch up on what God had man record in the Bible from ancient times. The Bible never claims to be a Science text book but when it does speak on nature, biology physics etc it is absolutely accurate. So what has taken man thousands of years to gain wisedom of, has been in the Bible all along. here are just a few examples..


1. Numbering the stars.

Genesis 15:5 says the stars cannot be numbered by man. Jeremiah 33:32 explains the stars are beyond numbering. And yet before the telescope was invented, man was numbering the stars. Hipparchus said in 150 B.C. there are exactly 1,026 stars. 150 years later a Roman named Ptolemy said there are 1,056, Kepler counted 1,006. Since Galileo invented the telescope in 1608, we continued to discover more stars. Up until the last few hundred years until the discovery of the telescope there were only 6,000 stars seen by the naked eye. A modern telescope of 200 inches estimates 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. And there are not millions but billions of such galaxies. The Biblical scientific insights were far in advance of four modern day science. Today, with our technology and high powered telescopes in space and astronomers estimate that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy with an additional 20-100 billion galaxies in the universe!

2. The Bible had refuted the flat earth theory long before scientists actually disproved it
Isaiah 40:20 says "He sits enthroned above the sphere of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." For centuries, man believed that the earth was flat. Christopher Columbus was criticized for setting sail to the other side of the earth, they expected Columbus to sail off the edge of the earth. When people thought it was flat God told us it was round. If they only read the Bible...

3. The Earth's Suspension in Space
Job 26:7 says "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Early man thought Atlas, a huge turtle or elephants held up the earth. Today we know it is gravity that holds the planets and stars in their orbits making them appear to be hung on nothing.

4. The water Cycle
In recent history science taught that most clouds are formed by evaporation of water from the ocean, but the Bible recorded this centuries ago. Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 says "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. "
“The phrase, 'the wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course' is an accurate and astonishing description of the circular flow of air around the earth, called the 'jet stream,' well known to anyone who watches the evening news weather reports
Job 36:27 "For He draws up the droplets of water, They distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down, They drip upon man abundantly." The condensation and evaporation only known in recent years.


5. Oceanic Hydrothermal vents
These are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
Job 38:16 tells us there are springs in the sea (this was not known until 1913 when they found underground rivers).
Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened"

6. Ocean Currents
....and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. (Psalms 8:8) we now know there are ocean currents and that many fish swim the paths of these currents.

7. The Bible also says that each star is unique.


1 Corinthians 15:41 says
"There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.

just to say a few...

Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all :)

This is a keeper! Do you have a website I could bookmark for this info?

Here's another one. The Bible reveals the electro magnetic field which surrounds the earth:
Genesis 1:6 And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.

We now know that the electro magnetic field protects us from the solar winds. If it were not in place, the waters of the earth would blow away into space.

We have also learned that there is more water in space than there is on earth. On earth it is pooled together, but in space it is spread out through the galaxy.

Sincerely,

De Maria

With all respect for your religious beliefs : you are wasting your time on these senseless arguments. Believe whatever you prefer to believe.

The Bible is intended as a religious and philosophical manual for human beings, not as a scientific work.
Therefore the topic's line of thought is meaningless creationists babble.

:D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :D

Yes religious belief, scientifically confirmed. ;)

Agree, that it was not intended primarily as a scientific work - that changes with time.

The bible is first and foremost about God and our relationship to Him. :D

The bible is first and foremost about God and our relationship to Him.
That is what you BELIEVE !

:rolleyes:

And all of this information was known by man before the bible was written. Read a book about what knowledge ancient man really had. You will find out that people who studied (the people who could write stories) knew many things that the common people couldn't even dream of. All this shows is that the people who wrote the bible had studied the natural world. If you knew how much the Greeks actually knew in their time you would be shocked. It's a real pity that much of this knowledge has been lost to the ages and we are just now finding this information out again.

If you knew how much the Greeks actually knew in their time you would be shocked.I have a pretty good idea how much they knew, and how much went lost.

It's a real pity that much of this knowledge has been lost to the ages and we are just now finding this information out again.
Yes. And the greatest loss were the fires in the Alexandria Library (on four occasions) by :
- The (unintended?) fire during the Alexandrian War (48 BC)
- The Aurelian conquest attack (around 270 AD)
- The Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria on request of Christian Emperor Theodosius (391 AD)
- The Muslim conquest (around 642 AD)
So at least 2 out of 4 caused by religious fanatics!

But lets not go overboard : although much was known before the AD period, modern science is the source of lots of entirely new knowledge of which the Greeks had no idea. Nuclear, chemistry, astrophysica - just to call three - only got serious substance by modern inventions that made further discovery get snowballing into more and more new discoveries ! Science never before went as fast and as deep as it is going today ! And that is what worries most creationists and drives them into their senseless attack against theories on evolution and origin of the universe...

:)

I was thinking as now as in the modern era of science now(the last 150 years or so). We are of course more advanced today than we were them. It's just a pity that those cultures were destroyed and not allowed to go forward. The destruction of the greek culture alone probably delayed us by 1000 years or so of knowledge.

Pardon me, but the Grecian empire came MUCH later than Moses. You again mis-represent.

AND:

The book of Genesis is primarialy a history book. There is no claim that I know of that Moses didn't rely on various records and oral history when he wrote Genesis. All of this extra material that you say was incorporated into Genesis constitutes that OSE Cred is always harping about. Keep up the good work.

And all of this information was known by man before the bible was written.

Really? You can prove that?


Read a book about what knowledge ancient man really had. You will find out that people who studied (the people who could write stories) knew many things that the common people couldn't even dream of.

The people who could write stories? You mean they imagined this stuff? Or how did they know? Did they have powerful telescopes? Did they dream about it?


All this shows is that the people who wrote the bible had studied the natural world.

Is that what they said? That they learned this from studying the natural world? Which one of them went into the ocean to study the currents?


If you knew how much the Greeks actually knew in their time you would be shocked.

Try me. Tell us how much the Greeks knew that would shock us. Because I'm pretty sure we have a good idea of what the Greeks knew, what they philosophised and what they assumed.


It's a real pity that much of this knowledge has been lost to the ages and we are just now finding this information out again.

If you have evidence for all this, please show us. I'm interested.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I have a pretty good idea how much they knew, and how much went lost....

- The Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria on request of Christian Emperor Theodosius (391 AD)
- The Muslim conquest (around 642 AD)
So at least 2 out of 4 caused by religious fanatics!
....

:)

The destruction of the Alexandrian library was simply the fall out of war. I don't know about Muslims, but we can trace Christians confirming their theological conclusions with Greek classical philosophy throughout the centuries.

Do you have a letter or some other proof that either the Christians or the Muslims were commanded to destroy the classical works of the Greeks? Or is this just something else you believe without evidence?

Sincerely,

De Maria

First to answer Galveston the greeks are just an example, I use them because I've studied their culture more than the other ancient cultures. However the timeline for Moses according to "bible-history.com" is 1525 to 1407. The ancient greek culture goes back to about 1800BC to 86BC with the sacking of Athens by Sulla. I could have just as well said the Egyptians since they were also an advanced culture that had more knowledge in their day than many people give them credit for.

To answer De Maria,


Really? You can prove that?
Yes. Go study anchient cultures.


The people who could write stories?
Yes. Writing in ancient times was reserved for the very intelligent and the rich.


You mean they imagined this stuff?
In this case no although some of it might have been assumed like they probably assume the underwater volcanoes part although maybe not there might have been one close enough to the surface for them to see it.


Or how did they know?
Observation and complex mathmatical formulas.


Did they have powerful telescopes?
No but for the most part they didn't need them.


Did they dream about it?
Depends on what you mean by this, most people dream about ideas they have.


Is that what they said?
Yes


That they learned this from studying the natural world?
Yes isn't it interesting what you can learn with time and observations.


Which one of them went into the ocean to study the currents?
The sea fareing ones. Any culture that relied on fish would know where to fish and would know that there boat moves in the currents and where those currents are.


Try me. Tell us how much the Greeks knew that would shock us.
How about robotics? The had many complex machines that did all sorts of things. The robotics technology of the ancient greeks wasn't matched till Leonardo da Vinci.
They also not only knew that the earth was round but they knew how big it was within a 1% margin of error. They knew the tilt of the earth's axis. How far away the sun and moon where. It is really amazing some of the things they knew. Without the aid of modern equipment.

The destruction of the Alexandrian library was simply the fall out of war. There were 4 major destructions :
1 - The (unintended?) fire during the Alexandrian War (48 BC)
2 - The Aurelian conquest attack (around 270 AD)
3 - The Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria on request of Christian Emperor Theodosius (391 AD)
4 - The Muslim conquest (around 642 AD)

With nrs. 1 and 2 we can talk about fall out of war.
With nr. 3 there is definitely deliberate destruction for religious reasons :
In 391, Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan temples, and the Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria complied with this request. (http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap28.htm)
With nr. 4 it also was deliberate destruction for religious reasons :
Caliph Omar ordered the destruction AFTER the city was taken. (Accordingly to the written report by Christian Bishop Gregory Bar Hebræus. The Library's holdings either would have contradicted the Koran or they were superfluous, so they were all burned to warm the bath water of the Muslim solders) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria).


Do you have a letter or some other proof that either the Christians or the Muslims were commanded to destroy the classical works of the Greeks? Or is this just something else you believe without evidence?
Strange that you always accept pro-religious wild claims without any retort, but demand OSE for a historic wellknown fact.

:D :rolleyes: :) :p ;) :D

Michaelb, I found your post about greeks very interesting. I'd love to learn more. What books can this information be found in? Or are there any links on the internet that are a good source of information on this topic?

Cred, of course the Christians want OSE that you are correct, because they can't provide any for their faith. This is a way to frustrate you and eventually wear you down. This is what I went through for 10 years at Catholic school.

I cannot give any evidence of God, there is none. I do believe in God, without proof. The difference is, I don't expect anyone to believe what I believe. I don't need to bring anyone "into the fold". I'm happy here all by myself with my beliefs.

Of course, as a Deist, I don't have a mission to convert anyone. :)

Check out the History channel's "What the ancients knew." Other than that the information isn't well organized which is one of the reasons that people don't understand how much information has been lost through the ages.

Check out the History channel's "What the ancients knew." Other than that the information isn't well organized which is one of the reasons that people don't understand how much information has been lost through the ages.

Thanks, I will, always eager to learn new things, even if they're sometimes over my head. ;)

Cred, of course the Christians want OSE that you are correct, because they can't provide any for their faith. This is a way to frustrate you and eventually wear you down.
That person still has to be born, as some here should have noticed by now - if they were more open-minded !


Of course, as a Deist, I don't have a mission to convert anyone.
As Secular Humanist - the same here !

:)

There were 4 major destructions :
1 - The (unintended?) fire during the Alexandrian War (48 BC)
2 - The Aurelian conquest attack (around 270 AD)
3 - The Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria on request of Christian Emperor Theodosius (391 AD)
4 - The Muslim conquest (around 642 AD)

With nrs. 1 and 2 we can talk about fall out of war.
With nr. 3 there is definitely deliberate destruction for religious reasons :
In 391, Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan temples, and the Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria complied with this request. (http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap28.htm)

Pagan temples. But not libraries. And this is simply a quote with no reference. Do you have a source document? Or a fragment perhaps?

If not, then you are simply jumping to conclusions without OSE.


With nr. 4 it also was deliberate destruction for religious reasons :
Caliph Omar ordered the destruction AFTER the city was taken. (Accordingly to the written report by Christian Bishop Gregory Bar Hebræus. The Library's holdings either would have contradicted the Koran or they were superfluous, so they were all burned to warm the bath water of the Muslim solders) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria).

Wiki? That's your source?

Here's what else wiki says:

The Library of Alexandria, generally thought to have been founded at the beginning of the third century BC, was conceived and opened during the reign of Ptolemy I Soter, or that of his son Ptolemy II of Egypt. It has been reasonably established that the Library or parts of the collection were destroyed on a number of occasions, but to this day the details of the destruction (or destructions) remain a lively source of controversy based on inconclusive evidence.
Library of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria)

So, shall I say it? Do you believe without PROOF!! Where's your OSE!! :D


Strange that you always accept pro-religious wild claims without any retort, but demand OSE for a historic wellknown fact.

No, no. I've provided the evidence for my beliefs continually. You simply deny them.

As for me, I have evidence that Christians would not destroy any Greek masterpieces intentionally. Throughout the centuries, the Church Fathers used Greek philosophy either to substantiate Christian belief or as a point of comparison.

Sincerely,

De Maria

To answer De Maria,

Ok


Yes. Go study anchient cultures.

No. I asked, "CAN YOU PROVE THAT?"


Yes. Writing in ancient times was reserved for the very intelligent and the rich.

And so, they made up "stories"? Why should we believe these "stories"?


In this case no although some of it might have been assumed like they probably assume the underwater volcanoes part although maybe not there might have been one close enough to the surface for them to see it.

Might have been? You expect us to believe your speculations as though they are facts?


Observation

Again, who observed the Oceanic hydrothermal vents and the earth suspended in space?


and complex mathmatical formulas.

That doesn't surprise me. Did it surprise you?


No but for the most part they didn't need them.

But you said they observed these things. Did they observe them with the naked eye?


Depends on what you mean by this, most people dream about ideas they have.

True. But I'm trying to find out how they knew the things which we have only recently confirmed with modern technology.

If you are saying they dreamed of these things which we now confirm with modern technology, then that seems a mystical or spiritual means of understanding the world? Is that how you mean that they knew about these things, spiritually?


Yes

Yes isn't it interesting what you can learn with time and observations.

I'm sure you're wrong there. The people who wrote the Bible said they were inspired by God to do so:

2 Peter 1 20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. 21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.


The sea fareing ones. Any culture that relied on fish would know where to fish and would know that there boat moves in the currents and where those currents are.

And they observed the deep ocean currents and the hydro thermal vents?

Do you have source documents in which we may confirm these observations of the Greeks?


How about robotics?

They had robotics? How do you define "robotics"? I knew they had simple hydraulic machines, but I've never heard they had robotics.


The had many complex machines that did all sorts of things. The robotics technology of the ancient greeks wasn't matched till Leonardo da Vinci.

That depends on how you define "robotics". I don't believe Leonardo da Vinci had robotics either.


They also not only knew that the earth was round but they knew how big it was within a 1% margin of error. They knew the tilt of the earth's axis. How far away the sun and moon where. It is really amazing some of the things they knew. Without the aid of modern equipment.

All we need now is your proof. You've expounded what you believe admirably. Where are the source documents.

Sincerely,

De Maria

And so, they made up "stories"? Why should we believe these "stories"?

Why is it so hard to believe? You believe the "stories" in the bible, even though none of them can be proven.


Might have been? You expect us to believe your speculations as though they are facts?

That's what you expect with regards to the bible.


I'm sure you're wrong there. The people who wrote the Bible said they were inspired by God to do so:

Do you believe everything someone says is true? Obviously not because you are questioning Michaelb's findings.


All we need now is your proof. You've expounded what you believe admirably. Where are the source documents.

Ditto.

Pagan temples. But not libraries.
The initial order was for pagan temples. But fanatical "christians" could not let that source of knowledge in the Library go, and burned it down too.

Till the 17' century that burning of goods and people kept a general trademark of "christianity". And till deep in the 18' century "christianity" tried to keep the cork on the scientific bottle. Fortunately they failed.

There is loads of support. Hundreds. I just took Wiki as that turned up as first link.
Anyway : still better than your source : a book, poorly copied and translated, written by paysants, selected a couple of hundred years later by involved believers themselves (what validity provides that ?), and without any evidence that there ever was any inspiration.

:D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :D

sassyT,
Well done.
Do you have more info on that sort of biblical knowledge or can you provide a source for more.
I'm very much interested.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[QUOTE=michealb]And all of this information was known by man before the bible was written. Read a book about what knowledge ancient man really had. You will find out that people who studied (the people who could write stories) knew many things that the common people couldn't even dream of. All this shows is that the people who wrote the bible had studied the natural world. If you knew how much the Greeks actually knew in their time you would be shocked. It's a real pity that much of this knowledge has been lost to the ages and we are just now finding this information out again.

Michealb, of course everyone know that the ancient Greeks and Egyptians had advanced cultures but do you have any OSE that proves your claim that they knew the earth was spherical? Are there any ancient writing of a spherical earth, innumerable stars, a suspended earth, water cycle, oceanic thermal vents, ocean and wind currents etc..
If the man already knew all this scientific information, then why have recent scientist gotten creadit for discoveries that we supposedly should already have known for thousand of years?

You claim all this information was known to man before the bible? Can you tell me how 4000 years ago, without a telescope, man knew there were hundreds billion upon billions of stars? If this was common knowledge then why is it that eminent astrologist just in 150 BC were counting stars giving fixed numbers in the thousands? Do you have any OSE that man 4000years ago had this knowledge?
Can you tell me how 4000 years ago man knew the earth was spherical? Do you have any ancient writing from this period that proves man believed the earth to be spherical?
Can you tell me how 4000years ago man knew before deep sea technology, that there are springs and hydrolic vents?
And if the Hydrologic Cycle was already known to man 4000 years ago then why do men like Pierre Perault (who "discovered' the water cycle and evaporation in the 1670's) get creadit?
And you say all this shows is that people in the bible had studied the natural world... do you have OSE to prove this? And if for arguments sake they did study the natural world, what eqipment and technology did they used to gain this scientific knowledge that we now know because of technological advances?

Please do not just make hot air claims. Please can you back your claims with objective supported evidence. Thank you :)

do you have any OSE that proves your claim that they knew the earth was spherical?
Yes. Considoring Eratosthenes was able to calculate the circumference. It would be a pretty safe concultion that if he was calculating circumference he knew the earth was a round. Also if you do a little bit of history work you'll find the idea of the world being flat is actually fairly new as far as ideas go not really gaining ground until the 12th centuary when the Church started to push the idea.


Can you tell me how 4000 years ago, without a telescope, man knew there were hundreds billion upon billions of stars?
He didn't the bible reference only said "the stars are beyond numbering" Which just means there are a lot of them and the author didn't bother to count. You are assigning the number not the author which if you can assign a number they are not beyond counting.


Can you tell me how 4000years ago man knew before deep sea technology, that there are springs and hydrolic vents?
He didn't again you are assigning more knowledge to the author than what is written. He said "all the fountains of the great deep." Springs on land were a very important part of life back then, people knew that water welled up from underground it was easy to see. So it's not really a stretch for the author who knew that the source of water on land came from fountains it wouldn't really be a strech for them to be under the sea as well.

And if the Hydrologic Cycle was already known to man 4000 years ago then why do men like Pierre Perault (who "discovered' the water cycle and evaporation in the 1670's) get creadit?
Because the knowledge had been lost. Did you miss that part about me saying that much of what ancient people knew has been lost to the ages. You can also get credit for discovering something if you find out how it happens, even if everyone already knows it happens.

and if for arguments sake they did study the natural world, what eqipment and technology did they used to gain this scientific knowledge that we now know because of technological advances?
They used their eyes, ears, noses, and hands. I think you would be surprised just how much science can be done with the equipment we are born with.

sassyT,
I still waiting and hoping you will answer my question about more of such scientific information from the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sassyT, I still waiting and hoping you will answer my question about more of such scientific information from the bible.
Dear Fred : sassyT just copied that from other websites. It is of course called plagiarism, when one does not clearly state that it is copied, or provide a link to the original text source.
May be that is the reason why she can not answer you , as that would reveal that she did not write that herself.

There are several other websites with texts that are near identical to SassyT's post. A simple Google search will reveal that (like the "let us reason ministries" website).

:rolleyes:

Credendovidis,
Then is she will not tell me from where she got that information perhaps you will so that I can study it.
Thanks,
Fred

Fred,

I'm not sure this is the one, and there's too much info to go through to be certain, but here's a link about God and science for you.

Evidence for God from Science (http://www.godandscience.org/)

I hope it's the information you're looking for. :)

.... perhaps you will so that I can study it.
Just Google headers of the topic starter, one of which will lead you to : --> the let us reason ministries (http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo6.htm) <--

But there are a load of other similar websites. All creationist's stuff...

:rolleyes:

Altenweg and Creden,
Thanks much,
Fred

I hope it was what you where looking for Fred. :)

Don't you just love it! The Bible haters keep saying that it is just a collection of myths, lies, and superstition, and then when they are forced to acknowledge that many things it says are confirmed by recent discoveries, they say it is because of the observations of ancient man, preferably any ancient man other than Hebrews. What fun!! Kudos, Sassy.

Every work of fiction has some truth in it, no one has ever denied that. It makes it easier for people to relate to it. What you are missing is that in order for reasonable people to acknowledge that the knowledge came from a supernatural being you have to do one of two things either rule out all other sources or prove it came from supernatural sources.

Again find me one case in which that the only answer possible is supernatural. As often as most of you think the supernatural acts on this world it should be fairly easy to write up the science experiment and prove it. Until it is proven that magic exists I will continue to discount it when I deal with the natural world.

By the way I don't hate the bible, the bible is an object. It sort of unreasonable to hate an object don't you think.

Well, in a couple of threads, I have shown you history written before the fact, but that doesn't count in your thinking, so I guess we'll just have to continue to disagree.

Don't ya just love it! The Bible haters keep saying that it is just a collection of myths, lies, and superstition ....
How strange!! I do not see any "bible haters" here.
Only people who say that there is no OSE for the bible to be God's word, nor OSE for God to exist.
All they say is that that all is based on BELIEF and on nothing else!!

Why do you always twist things out of their context, make up arguments that were never stated, and/or just post lies - just to sooth your frustrations??

:D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :D

I agree Cred.

I don't believe that the bible is the word of God, it is an interesting book though, and I don't hate it, in fact I have 2 bibles, one that belonged to my mother and was handed down from generation to generation, and my Dads bible, also handed down.

It's an interesting book, and I'm not going to say that all the stories aren't true. My point is that the book was written by men, and therefore fallible, like men. If all of us witnessed the same event and then wrote about it, we'd all come up with very different stories. Some of us would perhaps add to the original tale in order to make the story more interesting. That's what I think the bible is.

I don't base my belief on the bible, that's all, but hate it, no. :)

Every work of fiction has some truth in it, no one has ever denied that. It makes it easier for people to relate to it. What you are missing is that in order for reasonable people to acknowledge that the knowledge came from a supernatural being you have to do one of two things either rule out all other sources or prove it came from supernatural sources.

Again find me one case in which that the only answer possible is supernatural. As often as most of you think the supernatural acts on this world it should be fairly easy to write up the science experiment and prove it. Until it is proven that magic exists I will continue to discount it when I deal with the natural world.

By the way I don't hate the bible, the bible is an object. It sort of unreasonable to hate an object don't you think.

History written in advance IS supernatural.

History written in advance IS supernatural.

Or psychic, or not fact, or just luck, a guess... supernatural isn't the only possibility.

Pity these "predictions" were made with such wishy-washy language that the bible couldn't inspire the science. Science had to find it independently, and then you look back in your book to find something that sounds like it predicted it. Thanks for the help God.

History written in advance IS supernatural.

We have gone over this. I can write that I'm going to go to jail. Then go rob a bank and go to jail for robbing the bank. Technically I foretold the future. Does that make me supernatural? No. The other way I can foretell the future is by misdating my work
"On September 11th 2001 three planes will crash.By MichealB July 3rd 2000" If I were to write that down and pass the information around a primitive culture that had no way of knowing exactly when something was written down it would seem that I foretold the future. Does that make me supernatural? No. The third way of telling the future is leave out details. "Tomorrow something bad will happen." We all know that tomorrow something bad will happen to someone or if nothing bad enough to warrant a warning from the past happens we can use future events like it was the day that two terrorist met that planned a future bombing and had they not met the bombing wouldn't have occurred. Does that make me supernatural? No.
(Sorry for all of the 9/11 references but my office over looks the side of the Pentagon that got hit and they are currently setting up for the events tomorrow. So it's sort of on my mind.)

The claim of supernatural must be proven beyond the natural because the natural is know to exist where as the supernatural is not.
Takes less evidence to say a baby deer was in my backyard and busted a hole in my fence. (happened to me last week, really)
Than to say a unicorn was in my backyard and busted a hole in my fence. Although it would might be easier for unicorn to bust a hole in fence versus a baby deer it still doesn't make it a more likely story.

I only discount the supernatural because there is no evidence for it.

Sorry folks but I must agree with Galveston1.
Things prophesied (predicted) many years before they happen is Supernatural to my way of thinking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Of course you do arcura, you base your beliefs on the bible, to believe it isn't factual would be to admit that God doesn't exist. I understand that.

Sorry, I believe in God, but I still have to say that there are many other explanations about these "predictions" in the bible.

I agree if I could predict what was going to happen before it happened every time with great detail that would be supernatural but that's not what the bible does so its not.

michealb,
I disagree.
The bible does predict certain events with amazing detail in many cases such as the crucifixion of Jesus many, many years before it happened.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Y'all just haven't read the scriptures I gave you. You dismiss it without knowing what you are talking about. I think that is really narrow minded. I expect more from intellectuals!

It doesn't matter what the scripture says because even if it gets every detail right if you can't prove beyond a doubt of when it was written it doesn't matter. The other problem is you need all of the writing from one particular author to prove that the author didn't write a huge amount of material and bound to get one thing correct. The other problem with predicting the coming of Jesus in particular is there are hundreds of stories that tell the same tale as Jesus with a minor differences(Its the standard hero story of the ancient world). Then of course there is the question if Jesus was even a real person anyone can write a follow up story if they know the original. Until the supernatural is proven to exist, if there is a plausible natural solution reason insists you use it. If you do anything else you might as well make up your own fantasy world exactly to your liking, instead of using someone else's.

[QUOTE=michealb]Yes. Considoring Eratosthenes was able to calculate the circumference. It would be a pretty safe concultion that if he was calculating circumference he knew the earth was a round. Also if you do a little bit of history work you'll find the idea of the world being flat is actually fairly new as far as ideas go not really gaining ground until the 12th centuary when the Church started to push the idea.

Ehem... lol your buddy Eratosthenes is from 276 BC - 194. We are talking 4000 years ago.. so are you saying Job from the Bible consulted with this guy? Your arguments are so weak.



He didn't the bible reference only said "the stars are beyond numbering" Which just means there are a lot of them and the author didn't bother to count. You are assigning the number not the author which if you can assign a number they are not beyond counting.

Again, you are just displaying ignorance of the subject matter. I think you need to do a little more scriture reading and studying before you make continue to make invalid, hot air points. First of all if you read the entire passage you will see that God compares the number of stars to the number of grains of sand there are in the ocean therefore using figure of speech God was basically telling abraham that there are billion or even trillions of stars that are "beyond numbering". So again, you desperate effort to discredit the scientific insight the Bible has has, is failing dismally.



He didn't again you are assigning more knowledge to the author than what is written. He said "all the fountains of the great deep." Springs on land were a very important part of life back then, people knew that water welled up from underground it was easy to see. So it's not really a stretch for the author who knew that the source of water on land came from fountains it wouldn't really be a strech for them to be under the sea as well.

In case you didn't know the "great deep" is synonymous with the ocean. So he was not talking about spring on land. Again, an invalid rebutal.


Because the knowledge had been lost. Did you miss that part about me saying that much of what ancient people knew has been lost to the ages. You can also get credit for discovering something if you find out how it happens, even if everyone already knows it happens.

Right... we lost such an important piece of information. Do you have any OSE to prove this knowledge was "lost"


They used their eyes, ears, noses, and hands. I think you would be surprised just how much science can be done with the equipment we are born with.

Right... who needs a telescope, apparently according to you we can look into space with our "eyes" and some how know there are billion of stars and galaxies out there. :o

Your reaching and lacking in reading comprehension.


ehem... lol your buddy Eratosthenes is from 276 BC - 194. We are talking 4000 years ago.. so are you saying Job from the Bible consulted with this guy?
Again Eratosthenes is an example of how important knowledge has been lost. Many many other ancient cultures knew the earth was round by observation alone. It's interesting though that when the bible says the earth is round it is a prove of divine inspriation but when it says it's flat it's a metaphore. Wish I could use that when I was wrong.


First of all if you read the entire passage you will see that God compares the number of stars to the number of grains of sand there are in the ocean therefore using figure of speech God was basically telling abraham that there are billion or even trillions of stars that are "beyond numbering". So again, you desperate effort to discredit the scientific insight the Bible has has, is failing dismally.
Again your not looking at this as an ancient man. First more stars could be seen by ancient man than we can see today. Light pollution sucks. Second there probably were more than the ancient author could count the least you could say that it would be a very daunting task to even try. Plus the stars move which makes it even harder. It is much more likely that the author was using metaphor since indeed even if you try only count the ones that he could see the task would be nearly impossilbe to get an acurate count there for they would not be able to be numbered.


In case you didn't know the "great deep" is synonymous with the ocean. So he was not talking about spring on land. Again, an invalid rebutal.
Poor reading comprehension I said since man knew springs cause lakes on land it would not be a strech for someone to guess that there are more or larger springs under the ocean being the source of the ocean. Being incorrect about the source of the ocean in this passage but being correct that there are springs under the ocean. Again a plausible rebutal.


right... we lost such an important piece of information. Do you have any OSE to prove this knowledge was "lost"
Why did we loose the important information of how to build pyriamids or did god build the pyriamids too? As for OSE sure take an ancient history class. Your in school go talk to the professor that teaches the course in your school. I sure he/she will be able to tell you much more than I can. Do a Google search and you will find tons of information.


Right... who needs a telescope, apparently according to you we can look into space with our "eyes" and some how know there are billion of stars and galaxies out there.
Correct me if I'm wrong but no where does the bible mention other Galaxies. We however can look into space and see a very large number of stars. Do me a favor go to a deserted mountain top and try and count the stars. Then tell me it's a far stretch to say that there are more stars than grains of sand.

I MUST agree with Sassyt.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I MUST agree with Sassyt.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Of course you must, because the bible tells you so.

The Bible is our guid line to heaven. The bible was not wrote so we can figure out what's to come or what is hidden in the codes.. There is no codes . If God wanted us to know when he was coming back he wouldn't have said he was coming like a thief in the night, not even the angels in heaven know when Jesus is coming.

Altenweg,
Correction.
The bible does not tell me that I MUST believe what is written in it.
But because I have had so many personal experiences with God Himself and what the bibles has taught me about Him that I do believe that the bible does contain His word.
I emphasize that it is due to PERSONAL experiences through answered prayers and the fact that I believe God saved my life in the Korean war.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, I too have had experiences, personal experiences with God. Enough experiences that I still believe regardless of 10 years of terribel treatment in Catholic school. Ten years of the wonderful Catholics belittling me, ostrasizing me, telling me I'm a bastard because my parents, although legally married, weren't married in the Catholic church. Ten years of sitting on the pew while the rest of my classmates went up to receive communion, a wafer for goodness sake, a simple store bought wafer. I couldn't have that wafer and be "blessed" because to them I was not a child of God. Ten years of bible study, I'm surprised I was allowed to tarnish their book by reading it, after all, I'm not Catholic. Ten years of my friends parents calling my house and telling my wonderful Mom and Dad that in their eyes I was being neglected because they did not baptize me as Catholic. Ten years of being told I was going to hell because I didn't go to their church. Ten years Fred, ten long years.

After all of that, most people would have walked out of that institution refusing to believe in God, not me. I have found God, but not in a book and not in Church. You see, I don't need a book to believe in God, nor do I need Church. God is in my heart and soul.

Peace and kindness to you too Fred, and I do mean that. I know that your faith is important to you, just because we don't agree doesn't mean that I don't respect what you have to say and the choices you've made. To each their own. :)

Alty

Altenweg,
You were wrongly treated. Terribly so!
Very much so.
It seems that THOSE Catholics were not taught about what Christian love is all about as Jesus taught by both word and example.
This Catholic would NEVER treat you that way.
You are a child of God as am I so you are my sister in that regard.
I have never told anyone they were going to hell.
The bible I believe in tells us all that God id the ONLY judge of who goes where.
It seems that there was very poor bible instruction at the school you went to.
Peace, Kindness, and love,
Fred

Fred,

Thank you for those kind words, they mean a lot to me.

I realize that not every Catholic is like the people I went to school with,
And really, I have nothing against anyone's chosen religion, be it Catholic,
Lutheran, Mormon, whatever.

I know what's in my heart and soul, and I live my life trying to be the best person
I can be. I do pray at home, and I do accept God into my life. I just won't ever
Step foot in a Church again, nor will I accept the bible as the word of God. God
Is a part of who I am, and I am thankful for that.

Oops, we've strayed off topic, sorry SassyT, I apologize.

Peace Fred. :)

Altenweg.
Off topic it may be but I think it is imortant that I an others know how you and others have been treated by some un-Christ-like Christians.
Thanks for sharing.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Actually they were being Christians. The bible is full of references about torturing and killing other tribes because they don't believe or aren't "god's children" or had sinned.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

Yes, Michealb, everyone will bow before Jesus and admit that He is Lord. Even you. Doesn't that just chap you? Now, me, I don't mind. I already do that.

Come on over to this side, I guarantee you won't be disappointed!

So much for free will.

As far as not being disappointed my life has greatly improved since I stopped wasting time praying for things and instead spent my time getting those things myself. It's almost amazing what you can accomplish in 5 to 10 minutes a day spent doing rather than praying. I recommend you try it sometime I guarantee your life will improve.

So much for free will.

As far as not being disappointed my life has greatly improved since I stopped wasting time praying for things and instead spent my time getting those things myself. It's almost amazing what you can accomplish in 5 to 10 minutes a day spent doing rather than praying. I recommend you try it sometime I guarantee your life will improve.This is my experience as well.

The initial order was for pagan temples. But fanatical "christians"

Where's your source? Do you believe without OE? This is just your BELIEF!


could not let that source of knowledge in the Library go, and burned it down too.

Till the 17' century that burning of goods and people kept a general trademark of "christianity". And till deep in the 18' century "christianity" tried to keep the cork on the scientific bottle. Fortunately they failed.

Where's your proof? This is just your BELIEF!!


There is loads of support. Hundreds. I just took Wiki as that turned up as first link. Anyway : still better than your source : a book, poorly copied and translated, written by paysants, selected a couple of hundred years later by involved believers themselves (what validity provides that ?), and without any evidence that there ever was any inspiration.

:D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :D

Where's your support? This is just your BELIEF!!

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes, Michealb, everyone will bow before Jesus and admit that He is Lord. Even you. Doesn't that just chap you? Now, me, I don't mind. I already do that.

Come on over to this side, I gaurantee you won't be disappointed!

You're an angry Christian aren't you Galveston? It just irks you to no end that you can't prove God through the bible.

You remind me a lot of the people I went to school with. Very "My way or the highway" mind set.

Why can't we just accept people for who and what they are? Is that really so hard? Do we really have to belittle, is it that important to prove ourselves right?

I guess so, because now I'm doing it too, but not to prove I'm right. :(

De Maria,
Cred continues to prove that he also has beliefs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You're an angry Christian aren't you Galveston? It just irks you to no end that you can't proove God through the bible.

You remind me alot of the people I went to school with. Very "My way or the highway" mind set.

Why can't we just accept people for who and what they are? Is that really so hard? Do we really have to belittle, is it that important to proove ourselves right?

I guess so, because now I'm doing it too, but not to proove I'm right. :(

You are wrong about the angry part. I state things forcefully in hopes of stimulating some thought processes.

And what makes you think that I haven't thought about what you've said, or studied the bible and church? Believe me, I have.

Galveston, in the end, isn't it more important that you are a good person then a God fearing person? I think so.

I've said it before, not everyone can be right about God, or religion, someone has to be wrong. There are so many different beliefs, and everyone believes that they are right in what they choose. There are so many books that claim to be the only way to God, which book is right, are any of them?

In the end, believe in God, don't believe, be Catholic, Muslim, Lutheran, Mormon, whatever, but just do your best to be a good person, live a good life, because that's all that matters in the end. If the Aethists are right and there is no God, no heaven, then yes, I will be disappointed, but if I'm right and all good people will go to heaven, even the Aethists, well, that's the heaven I want to go to.

I believe in God, but I don't believe we will be punished if we don't follow a certain book or certain religion. After all, he didn't exactly make it easy to decide which way is right. ;)

Altenweg your missing the point of religion. Not being a good person is forgivable however not believing in their religion is not.

Altenweg your missing the point of religion. Not being a good person is forgivable however not believing in their religion is not.

I guess I am missing the point, probably because I don't believe in organized religion. If not being a person is forgivable, then does it matter if you believe in God or not? I guess it does if you believe in the bible and church. I am a Deist, so my beliefs are very different then others that believe in God. I don't follow the bible, nor do I go to church. I don't belong to a specific "religion" although I do have a specific faith, unlike anyone I know.

Not everything I believe can be lumped into a neat word like Deism, it's the closest word to describe what I believe. I believe in a kind, caring, forgiving God, and if we are all "God's children" then we will all go to heaven, because no parent would turn their back on their child just because he went down the "wrong path".

We really have strayed off the topic folks, and I apologize again to SassyT.

I think we should get back on topic. :)

Peace

Well, where we have gone in this thread is a natural progression. Sassy makes a point, those who don't believe the Bible begin to say that it is no evidence at all, and here we are.
Some do not understand the Christian mind-set. It is strongly missionary. I'll try to explain.
I am on a highway at night, and I have information that I accept as reliable that a bridge over a gorge is out, and it is just over the hill. Cars are approaching at high speed. What are my options? I can either try to flag down the drivers and warn them of the missing bridge, or I can let them speed by and die. Now if this were literal, and I did nothing, I would be guilty of at least criminal neglect, and could be prosecuted if proven. I do not want to have to answer to my God for deliberately letting people be eternally lost. I say what I say, not because I hate, but because I have a genuine concern for you. You may not agree with this, but you shouldn't judge me as a hater.

Well, where we have gone in this thread is a natural progression. Sassy makes a point, those who don't believe the Bible begin to say that it is no evidence at all, and here we are.
Some do not understand the Christian mind-set. It is strongly missionary. I'll try to explain.
I am on a highway at night, and I have information that I accept as reliable that a bridge over a gorge is out, and it is just over the hill. Cars are approaching at high speed. What are my options? I can either try to flag down the drivers and warn them of the missing bridge, or I can let them speed by and die. Now if this were literal, and I did nothing, I would be guilty of at least criminal neglect, and could be prosecuted if proven. I do not want to have to answer to my God for deliberately letting people be eternally lost. I say what I say, not because I hate, but because I have a genuine concern for you. You may not agree with this, but you shouldn't judge me as a hater.

The problem is that while sassy may well be trying to tell us that the bridge is down, she's actually saying that the bridge is down because a giant snake came up from the depths and ate it. I therefore associate the fact that I know there are no such things as giant snakes, and even if there were they would not come out from hiding just to eat a bridge, with the actual statement of the bridge, and assume you to be untruthful about that as well. If she is performing missionary work, then she's doing it very poorly.

Galveston, I understand very well the mission that Christians have, but let me try to explain my way.

If the bridge is out and I know I can make it over, then what right do you have to tell me I'm wrong? Perhaps I'll take another path that you don't know about, that you have no idea exists, perhaps I'm just as informed as you, but choose to follow another road.

If someone wishes to be told about the Christian way, then by all means, preach, educate, and convert. But, if someone is quite happy with their way, even if it isn't the Christian way, then what right do you have to force your beliefs on them?

I'm not lost, not at all, I've found God, just in a different way than you've chosen, I've followed a different path.

But when you flag the person down and tell them the bridge is out when you really have no clue whether the bridge is out or not. Your pretty much just wasting everyone's time. Which isn't a crime but should be.

Michael, I'd never flag you down, that I can promise. As a Deist I have no mission to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I just want the right to think it, that's all. I'm tired of people telling me my belief isn't as strong because I'm not a Christian.

I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish, be it God, science, or the spaghetti monster. ;)

Where's your source? Do you believe without OE? This is just your BELIEF!
Where's your proof? This is just your BELIEF!!!
Where's your support? This is just your BELIEF!!!

There is ample proof for that, to be found in all libraries. Non-claiming historical reports of what happened politically and practically. With OSE - what does your OE means?

The validity of the Bible is a different matter.
It is based on a non-visible entity that sits on a cloud outside (!! ) our universe, that has perverted interests in every human beings sexual habits.
It is based on an entity that can create an entire universe in 6 days, but is unable to write, copy, translate, produce, nor distribute the operation manual for humanity itself, reason for that manual to be overloaded with faults, inconsistences, and contradictions.

But you have no problems believing in - and accepting - such an entity's existence.
However, that "christians" were ordered to destroy pagan temples and added the Library to that list of destruction has to be proven with OSE...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

===


Cred continues to prove that he also has beliefs.
As you meant RELIGIOUS BELIEF : The more you post nonsense like that, the more I will have to tick you on your fingers, dear Fred !

:)

To all here about this.
This is my learned opinion.
I believe that all paths do NOT lead to God.
Some actually lead away from God.
I also believe the bible and that the bible encourages followers to tell others about the Biblical God and the way to Him and His salvation.
Christians who do that are doing what they believe should be done.
That is not much different than this...
If I were a carpenter and saw someone building chair improperly, I would be a good person by helping that person build the chair correctly.
It is not a crime to attempt to help others.
However, it is not ethical to try to shove something down another's throat who does not want it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Cred must have his comments in his computer so he can click them to post. Repetitive. I again challenge him to present a contridiction in scripture of any significance. There are differences in numbers stated is some places, but it doesn't change the history or message presented. I like to shoot down hot air balloons.

Your comment about the universe being created in 6 days: You don't believe it and neither do I. NOWHERE does the Bible make any such claim.

The Bible NOWHERE says that God sits on a cloud or outside the universe.

God's interest in our sex lives is that we may live happy, disease free lives that provide the proper environment for our children to grow up in.

God's interest in our sex lives is that we may live happy, disease free lives that provide the proper environment for our children to grow up in.

Why not just get rid of the diseases wouldn't that be easier? The very least he could do would be to make it so that if you follow the bible rules you don't get any diseases. Yet I openly mock gods existence and I'm as healthy as can be. How could any god that loves his followers allow me who openly mocks the possibility of his existence live yet kills an innocent child.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus Quotes

Why does he allow this? "because of man's rebellion against God's Word"

Sin entered the world through man. Not through god... Good job man. We cursed ourselves to suffering. We cursed ourselves to death. We cursed ourselves to disease. We, We, We, We, We,. From that point on every person on this planet was a sinner.

There is no such thing as innocent suffering. In the eyes of god we are all sinners and because of this fact, we are wretched. Now, good thing god sent his son to die on the cross (suffering terribly) to die for us who are evil. In his mercy, with grace, and faith he is willing to forgive us our sins and grant us eternal life.

Why does he allow this? "because of man's rebellion against God's Word"
That is what you BELIEVE...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Why does he allow this? "because of man's rebellion against God's Word"

Sin entered the world through man. Not through god....Good job man. We cursed ourselves to suffering. We cursed ourselves to death. We cursed ourselves to disease. We, We, We, We, We,....From that point on every person on this planet was a sinner.

Their is no such thing as innocent suffering. In the eyes of god we are all sinners and because of this fact, we are wretched. Now, good thing god sent his son to die on the cross (suffering terribly) to die for us who are evil. In his mercy, with grace, and faith he is willing to forgive us our sins and grant us eternal life.

So let me get this straight you believe that a child who has done nothing wrong in it's life deserves to suffer because you feel he is wretched because of something you think someone 6 thousand years did.

That is what you BELIEVE ....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

His question was "why does god allow"... you believe something different why don't you answer his question with what you believe instead of some nonsense that has no baring on the topic.

So let me get this straight you believe that a child who has done nothing wrong in it's life deserves to suffer because you feel he is wretched because of something you think someone 6 thousand years did.

First, did I say I think he deserves it? It is not a matter of what I think. It's a matter of what the theological facts say. We are fallen beings, with physical bodies prone to disease and illness.

A great passage from the bible is

Passage Psalm 119:67-75:

67Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

68Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

69The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.

70Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.

71It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

72The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

73Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

74They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

75I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

I know you all hate for people site a source but...

But when you flag the person down and tell them the bridge is out when you really have no clue whether the bridge is out or not. Your pretty much just wasting everyones time. Which isn't a crime but should be.

I do hope you don't really mean what you said here. You just said it should be a crime for me to flag you down when I have reason to believe your life is in danger. You are saying that you are not willing for me to have my Constitutional rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. If I don't have those rights, you don't have them either.

Now who is being intolerant?

I do hope you don't really mean what you said here. You just said it should be a crime for me to flag you down when I have reason to believe your life is in danger. You are saying that you are not willing for me to have my Constitutional rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. If I don't have those rights, you don't have them either.

Now who is being intolerant?

A bridge is one thing, believing in God is another. No one's "life" is in danger because they don't believe in God, although I realize that's what you believe, it isn't reality.

You have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, you do not have freedom to harrass.

As for who is being intolerant, I think all of us are guilty of that, obviously.

I do hope you don't really mean what you said here. You just said it should be a crime for me to flag you down when I have reason to believe your life is in danger. You are saying that you are not willing for me to have my Constitutional rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. If I don't have those rights, you don't have them either.

Now who is being intolerant?

Freedom of speech has limits you can't yell fire in a crowded room. You can't flag people down and tell then the bridge is out if you have no knowledge of the bridge being out.

The issue is that I have the right to have freedom from your religion.

So I'm not intolerant, I just want the guy to get out of the middle of the road so I can go on my way to the perfectly fine bridge that I can see in the distance.

I think though you have your metaphor wrong. I think religions are waving people down and telling them to take a right because there is a bridge that only the locals can see but the people in the car should go full steam to the bridge and not to worry if they don't see it just keep going.

There is ample proof for that, to be found in all libraries. ....

We're not discussing all of the other stuff. All that boils down to the fact that you provided no evidence. You simply tried to side step the issue again. Which proves that your statement is simply an unsupported statement of what YOU BELIEVE.

Sincerely,

De Maria

michealb,
One of the things that non-Christian people fail to understand or acknowledge is the fact that Christians are supposed to spread the Word of salvation of souls. It is a main part of the religion.
In all cases it is supposed to be a loving thing to do.
ALSO Christianity is supposed to be a religion of attraction though there are many who do not practice it that way.
Christians are not to try to shove the religion down other peoples throats or worse yet FORCE it on them via one way or another.
In fact those who do that are chasing people way from the loving Son of God, Jesus.
To me "Freedom of religion" means I have a right to practice it with no harm to others.
Freedom from religion, I think, is that a person has the right to not be a part of or practice a reliegion.
To live in a country where the great majority of people are of one religion or another and try to not be exposed to religious activities seems to me to be a futile effort.
Religious symbols, buildings, advertising, and people are just about everywhere there exists communities.
How does a strong anti-relgion person avoid being exposed to all religious things and activities?
Close their eyes, ears, and avoid being exposed to religious symbols and buildings?
Do you take a different route just because there is a Church on the street which is the shortest route?
I'm just wondering about the answers I might get to those two questions.
I'm seriously interested in that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I don't shy away from religious symbols, or churches. Of course, I do believe in God, just not church or the bible.

When I was last in Germany I took my husband and son to Rothenburg ob der Tauber, the city I was born in. It is a very old city and has many old churches, actually, all of Germany does.

We went in to a few, they were absolutely beautiful. I lit a candle for both of my parents in every church we went to. My mother died on that trip to Germany, we were there for 3 weeks, and went to Rothenburg around 1 week after she died, my father passed 6 1/2 months before her.

I love the churches there, the are all so old, so beautifully made, architecture at its finest. Yes, I have to say that even I was respectful of what that building represents, even though I have no wish to belong to a church.

I have a cross necklace given to me when I was confirmed, and even though I am no longer a practicing Lutheran, I still wear the cross once in a while.

If you don't mind, I'll post a picture of my parents final resting place. You see, they were both cremated and the urn is with me and my family, in our home. My husband built a special alcove for them, it's right by my computer. You will see a cross on the right, two angels, a cross on the urn.

12242

Even though I no longer go to church or believe that the bible is the word of God, I still believe. :)

Altenweg,
Thanks for sharing that.
May your folks rest in peace.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you Fred. :)

I believe that they are waiting for me in heaven, we will meet again. :)

I think though you have your metaphor wrong. I think religions are waving people down and telling them to take a right because there is a bridge that only the locals can see but the people in the car should go full steam to the bridge and not to worry if they don't see it just keep going.

So, in your opinion you think "hell with salvation and afterlife" best life now is all I have? Pretty common view actually. Thing about it is, I have a great life and also don't have to be concerned with my afterlife.

1.) If I am right I have eternal salvation
2.) If I am wrong then it doesn't matter anyway

So, instead of living a man centered "it's all about me" attitude, I live a good holy life. A life of attempting to model my life after my maker. Model my life trying (attempting) to be more Christ like. Man, I am so screwed. Lol

michealb,
One of the things that non-Christian people fail to understand or acknowledge is the fact that Christians are supposed to spread the Word of salvation of souls. It is a main part of the religion.
In all cases it is supposed to be a loving thing to do.


True, spreading the word of the gospel is called for in the bible.



ALSO Christianity is supposed to be a religion of attraction though there are many who do not practice it that way.


I might have taken this statement wrong so understand that before you respond to my next couple sentences.

First, Attraction? The point of Christianity for example is not to "attract" people to a religion. The point is the spread the word of the gospel and bring the world the "good news".

Not everyone, actually very few are truly saved. God does not promise "our best life now". Your promise is salvation if you truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. Seeker sensitive attitudes are what causes the non-believers to fall when they "try on" church for size.




To live in a country where the great majority of people are of one religion or another and try to not be exposed to religious activities seems to me to be a futile effort.
Religious symbols, buildings, advertising, and people are just about everywhere there exists communities.
How does a strong anti-relgion person avoid being exposed to all religious things and activities?
Close their eyes, ears, and avoid being exposed to religious symbols and buildings?
Do you take a different route just because there is a Church on the street which is the shortest route?


This is a very true statement. I would be interested in the answer.

Alt,
Thank you for sharing that. May your mom and dad rest in peace.

I do have a question, curiosity. What made you turn away from the church and the bible?

Alt,
Thank you for sharing that. May your mom and dad rest in peace.

I do have a question, curiosity. What made you turn away from the church and the bible?

Thank you Smoked.

The answer to your question isn't really an easy one. Many things contributed to my turning away from church and the bible.

Part of it was my years in Catholic school and the way I was treated, part of it was the fact that our long time pastor was forced to leave the church because of an argument with the people who ran that church. Part of it was bible study and realizing (for me anyway) that the bible was written by men, not God and therefore not relevant to my faith.

So many different things contributed to the way I feel and the things I do, I can't pinpoint one specific event that took place, it was the combination of all that lead me to where I am now.

My parents death also contributed, in a very large way. I actually turned my back on God for a while after they died, or at least I thought I had. I was very angry with God, how could he take two such wonderful people away, and in such a horrible way? They were young, my dad was 60, my mother 63. They both suffered terribly. I was 30 when they died, an adult with a family of my own, an only child. I had the best relationship I can imagine with my parents, their death left a huge gaping hole in my heart, it still does. I hated God for quite some time after that.

I did what I thought they wanted, had their funerals in the church where our old pastor now preached. I kept their ashes with me, that's what they wanted. I stopped going to church because for me it was no longer a comfort, but a reminder of what I had lost. I also didn't want to hear the preachings of a man written book.

I did find my way back to God, but in a very different way than I had before. God is still a part of who I am, a part of my life, but not in a man made way, in my own way.

Not really an explanation, I know, but like I said, so many things contributed to my becoming a Deist. :)

For Smoked + Galveston1 + De Maria + Arcura + whoever else agrees with the topic header .

Actually the topic header is :

"Science is now catching up with what God already established thousand of years ago"

I have the following disagreements with that header :


... with what God already established...
"God"?? "God" is a CLAIMED to exist deity.
There simply is no OSE for "God's" existence.
All you can do is BELIEVE that.

And - surprise surprise ! - there is not any OSE for "God" to have established anything at all.
So neither is there is any OSE for "God" to have established anything.
All you can do is BELIEVE that.


... with what God already established thousand of years ago
Besides that there is no OSE for "God's" existence, nor for "God" having established anything at all , nothing really noteworthy happened to earth for the last 63 MILLION years (other than perhaps a "homo sapiens" investation, that currently is threatening to destroy the environment of the planet).

... "thousands of years" is a preposterous statement, that has to be seen in the light of the creationist's claim that the earth etc. is only approx, 6.400 years old (a total ridiculous claim in view of the science supported fact that earth + solar system is already 4,6 BILLION years old.


Science is now catching up with what God already established thousand of years ago
Besides that there is no OSE for "God's" existence, nor for "God" having established anything, nor for "God's" claimed creation to be thousands of years old, there is one more point that is ludicrous :
Science is not in some sort of match against "God". As far as REAL SCIENCE is concerned there is no "God".
Science is not catching up at all. How can you catch up with a wild claim without any OSE support ? So far as I know there is no OSE for god/gods at all, so it remains with that BELIEF ONLY.
Therefore science has overtaken and corrected anything that ever has been religious claimed. That includes anything irrespectful of specific religious belief..

NOTE 1 : Science demands that claims are supported by OSE.
NOTE 2 : Science demands that any Theory or Thesis is frequently checked against the latest findings and possible mistakes - thereby correcting itself and insuring that the data is as near to reality as possible.

Unlike religion, where there are only CLAIMS combined into a story and rules (called DOGMA) that is beyond any scrutiny, it even is beyond any real discussion. You simply has to accept it (You have to BELIEVE it).

Of course : if theists can manage to provide any OSE for any religious claim, we can validate such claim on it's reality. Till that moment every religious statement remains a wild claim.

So back to the topic header :

"Science is now catching up with what God already established thousand of years ago"

A totally unsupported and preposterous wild claim : nothing else!!

:rolleyes: ;) :p :rolleyes:

Eye witnesses saw the miracles that Jesus did. Eye witnesses touched Jesus, the holes in his hands, his flesh, at the resurrection. This all documented in the bible.

Archeologist have been uncovering artifacts for years that support the material in the bible. Historians state the bible is probably the oldest accurate compilation of human history. Geneticists can't fathom how something like DNA, actual living DNA, DNA that actually has a purpose, could have been produced by something or someone less then a supreme being.

The bible explains creation, where science can't. But you claim foul-able in the bible but not science?

Why do you keep spewing the same rhetoric? Might you have a new thought? You know, when someone contests a topic they usually have some evidence of their own. So, the ball has been in your court now for a while. Evidence to the contrary, Asked by countless members to produce.

By the way, why? Why would you, someone who if god dropped down and said hello probably still wouldn't believe, bother yourself in a conversation about god? Puzzling, unless your only agenda is to cause trouble and strife. Oh, let me use conflict. That way no confusion.

The whole debate boils down to evidence. Some insist on using one source for all their evidence others want to use multiple sources.

You have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, you do not have freedom to harrass.

As for who is being intolerant, I think all of us are guilty of that, obviously.

I apologize. I didn't realize that I was forcing you to read my posts.

I apologize. I didn't realize that I was forcing you to read my posts.

I think she meant in general. A lot of posts seem to be one sided and may even be construed as intolerant. From the conversation that alt and I have been having in this post and others I believe she was making a blanket statement.

I apologize. I didn't realize that I was forcing you to read my posts.

Galveston, do you know how to read? I never said that you were forcing me to read your posts, nor did I say that I was forced to respond. I do so of my own free will.

You are exactly the type of Christian I went to school with. When you don't get your way you become belittling, sarcastic, and offer fake apologies to try to prove your point.

After 10 years of dealing with such people, putting up with their "Christian" ways, I will not tolerate any more.

You are exactly the type of Christian that turned me away from Christianity. Thank you for reminding me.

God Bless. :)

I think she meant in general. A lot of posts seem to be one sided and may even be construed as intolerant. From the conversation that alt and I have been having in this post and others I believe she was making a blanket statement.

I was making a blanket statement. :)

I have to say that everyone is guilty of intolerance at times, myself included, as I just blatantly pointed out in my post to Galveston.

It's hard to turn the other cheek when you feel that someone keeps slapping you. I've been slapped too many times, and now I slap back. I'm honestly trying very hard to change that aspect of my personality, but 38 (darnit, I just turned 38, gulp) years of being who I am is hard to change over night.

Bear with me everyone, I am trying.

Smoked,
When I say that Christianity is a religion of attraction, I mean that Jesus did that. He attracted people to Him by what He said and did.
He set the example of how to be Christ-like.
He presented the story on how to live eternally and did so in a kind loving way.
Note that when some of His followers left Him He did not call them back or belittle them or harrass them for doing so.
It is also true that Jesus did put labels on certain people that described what they were doing. He IDENTIFIED them for what they were and for others to see them accurately.
In that way He was doing the others a favor and giving those He identified the opportunity to see themselves for what they were and change for the better.
He exposed the lying, twisting, hypocritical, bigots for what they were.
And Yes that was a part of the attraction to Him for others.
It is called being honest with though love, I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Smoked,
When I say that Christianity is a religion of attraction, I mean that Jesus did that. He attracted people to Him by what He said and did.
He set the example of how to be Christ-like.
He presented the story on how to live eternally and did so in a kind loving way.
Note that when some of His followers left Him He did not call them back or belittle them or harrass them for doing so.
It is also true that Jesus did put labels on certain people that described what they were doing. He IDENTIFIED them for what they were and for others to see them accurately.
In that way He was doing the others a favor and giving those He identified the opportunity to see themselves for what they were and change for the better.
He exposed the lying, twisting, hypocritical, bigots for what they were.
And Yes that was a part of the attraction to Him for others.
It is called being honest with though love, I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I see what you meant now. Like I prefaced my "question/comments" I figured I was was not understanding clearly the point of your statement. Thank you for clarification. :D

Smoked,
You're welcome
Fred

Dear Altenweg, I guess I have fallen prey to something similar to what you describe. I have heard that "forced down my throat" comment so many times that I tend to react to it. Really didn't mean to irritate you.

Galveston, irritated, maybe a little, but no permanent damage done. ;)

Truce? :)

Catholic Church says theory of evolution is compatible with the Bible (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26747166/)

Catholic Church says theory of evolution is compatible with the Bible (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26747166/)

The catholic church holds a lot of heretical views that are not supported by the bible or Christians.

The catholic church holds a lot of heretical views that are not supported by the bible or Christians.I hate to break it to you but Catholics *are* Christians.

I hate to break it to you, but if you follow catholic doctrine you are probably not actually a christian. Only one way to the father... Catholics hold a lot of rules, traditions, and general legalism that is not Christianity. Unfortunately people equate Christianity to this nonsense.

That's a beautiful thought. Thank you for sharing.

I hate to break it to you, but if you follow catholic doctrine you are probably not actually a christian. Only one way to the father....Catholics hold a lot of rules, traditions, and general legalism that is not Christianity. Unfortunately people equate Christianity to this nonsense.

I thought the only prerequisite was a belief in Christ as the Son of God.

I thought the only prerequisite was a belief in Christ as the Son of God.

Belief that Christ was the son of god, died on the cross for the sins of man, and was resurrected. A propitiatory act on behalf of man.

Catholicism is considered to be a "works based salvation". Which is contrary to what the bible teaches.

Belief that Christ was the son of god, died on the cross for the sins of man, and was resurrected. A propitiatory act on behalf of man.

Catholicism is considered to be a "works based salvation". Which is contrary to what the bible teaches.

But it's still Christianity, right?

But it's still Christianity, right?

no..

Let me make it simple.. The previous statement I made. Add anything to that. Put any requirement beyond that and it is no longer Christianity. It would be defined as a un-biblical sect or cult.

I think I figured it out, the term Christian only refers to people that think like you and act properly.

For example if someone goes to a christian church every Sunday for 30 years but then kills someone. He is not a christian. He was an atheist. When he goes to jail and finds god he becomes a born again christian until he does something wrong again then he has to go to jail and become born again again.

I think I'm starting to get the christian mindset now.

I think I figured it out, the term Christian only refers to people that think like you and act properly.

For example if someone goes to a christian church every Sunday for 30 years but then kills someone. He is not a christian. He was an atheist. When he goes to jail and finds god he becomes a born again christian until he does something wrong again then he has to go to jail and become born again again.

I think I'm starting to get the christian mindset now.

How did you come up with wild inference? Christianity, a true believer is defined clearly in the bible. Believe Christ is the savior, believe he died on the cross for your sins.. Jesus did this sacrifice to release man from the law (sin). Simple.

Does that mean that as a believer we have sinless perfection? By no means. BTW- the bible defines the only unforgivable sin also. Killing someone isn't it. Your example, although very ridiculous, is still wrong.

I hope people find security in what ever they believe. Just don't confuse the point. The bible defines what is and what it means to be a Christian. When a religion starts adding its own rules and regulations it would no longer be Christian (for example). Was it based on Christian beliefs? Sure, based on them but departed by their own differing views.

Catholicism for example says "You must go to church", "You must do good works", "You must", "You must...", "You must...", to get into heaven. This is just not the case. This is doctrine that they have added over the years and departs from the teaching of the bible. The bible, what "Christianity" believes to be god's inspired word and only resource to define it's religion.


I think I figured it out, the term Christian only refers to people that think like you and act properly.

The term only refers to those who believe the bible as the word of god, do not add to or subtract from that, and believe Christ is the savior, believe he died on the cross for your sins.. Jesus did this sacrifice to release man from the law (sin).



I think I'm starting to get the christian mindset now.

It is exciting to know you are actually thinking about it at all.

Reference : Post # 109

I hate to break it to you, but if you follow catholic doctrine you are probably not actually a christian. Only one way to the father....Catholics hold a lot of rules, traditions, and general legalism that is not Christianity. Unfortunately people equate Christianity to this nonsense.
The developing threat is providing a very interesting view on Christianity.
"Smoked" turns out to be omniscient in judging others towards their religious intentions and belief experience. Within a few posts he (she?) has decimated Christianity into the second or third world religion, by declaring all Roman Catholics into some sekt of non-christians.

Out goes Final Judgment, as activist "christians" here are now deciding in their arrogant and intolerant manner who is Christian or not.
Next step is of course to dump the involved deity also in all three available versions, as our activist "christian" friends do not need these any longer in their "wisdom" and smallmindedness : they seem to believe they are omniscient themselves!!

I hate to break it to "Smoked" but may it not be that whatever "Smoked" believes is nothing more than a personal version of the Christian religion? A pure sektarian belief itself??

Next to that I thought that lines like "Unfortunately people equate Christianity to this nonsense" were not allowed on this board, as it is insulting to more than half of all Christians, and such statements are totally unnecesarry.

Has board management fallen asleep or are they silently sympathizing with similar thoughts ?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

I think I figured it out, the term Christian only refers to people that think like you and act properly.

For example if someone goes to a christian church every Sunday for 30 years but then kills someone. He is not a christian. He was an atheist. When he goes to jail and finds god he becomes a born again christian until he does something wrong again then he has to go to jail and become born again again.

I think I'm starting to get the christian mindset now.


No need to be born again and again, :D

Actually you can think of church as a club of acknowledged SINNERS, relying on the grace and forgiveness of God.

The adulterer in John 8 or the Samaritan in John 3 were NOT PERFECT people, it was the religious, who thought themselves as better, that saw these people as sinners. These sinners were the ones that Jesus personally talked to. Jesus said HE came for the sinners.

I do something "wrong" everyday and everyday I am not perfect or sinless. But at anytime I can confess to God and say oops, my bad, I screwed up, I was not loving or kind or patient or humble, or I lusted, or lied etc... and know I that He forgives! :D

The problem within "Christendom" is the simple fact that some accept the Bible, and some accept their tradition. There will never be a meeting of the minds. Time will prove which view is correct.

Time will prove which view is correct.

I doubt this.

The problem within "Christendom" is the simple fact that some accept the Bible, and some accept their tradition. There will never be a meeting of the minds. Time will prove which view is correct.
Fortunately most Christians are rather tolerant believers, minding their own business.

All that will be revealed by time is the unending intolerance of religious fanatics.

:rolleyes:

.

Galveston, are you saying that time will tell that you are correct?

What about the Jews, they to think they're right, as do the Muslims, the Lutherans, The Baptists. Every religion thinks their faith is the right one, the only way. What makes you think that you're right?

Like I've said before, someone has to be wrong. What if we are all wrong, there is no God, no heaven, no afterlife? What if you just die and that's it, you're worm food?

I want to believe in heaven, I have to or I'll go crazy. The thought that I'll never again see my parents, that we won't meet after I die, that's too much to bear. But am I right? I'm not as sure as you seem to be, I wish I was.

Part of belief is accepting that it is only belief, because no one has ever been able to prove the existence of God. I do believe, but I'm not going to say that I'm absolutely right, because I can't. No one can.

Yes, time will tell, and by that time it won't matter, it's not like you can come back and tell anyone that you were right, if you are.

Galveston1,
I think that those who accept the bible AND holy tradition that the Holy Ghost inspired will be viewed by God as correct.
That is my belief and that of a great many other Christians.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Reference : Post # 109
"Smoked" turns out to be omniscient in judging others towards their religious intentions and belief experience.

I have done nothing of the sort.. All I have done is pointed out the mere fact that the bible contradicts with that particular religions views and traditions. I love the wild inferences though. Sekt! Sparkling whine!:D



Out goes Final Judgment, as activist "christians" here are now deciding in their arrogant and intolerant manner who is Christian or not.
Next step is of course to dump the involved deity also in all three available versions, as our activist "christian" friends do not need these any longer in their "wisdom" and smallmindedness : they seem to believe they are omniscient themself !!!

You assume much as usual. I make no decision. The bible is clear and should be the only resource on the topic of how to be saved (as it pertains to Christianity). It also clearly warns about adding or taking away from its words. People are free to believe and do as they please. But, on this topic regarding Christianity, the bible would be the authority to turn to.

Of coarse others have their own books, ideas, but... that wasn't the question now was it MR/MRS Cred? The questions that was posed to me was "are catholics cristians?". I read a great post from Gavl that sums it up. "The problem within "Christendom" is the simple fact that some accept the Bible, and some accept their tradition.". If someone believes in the bible as the inspired word of god and believes Christ died on the cross for their sins then I would say "yes", they are Christians. Add anything to that, make up some new rules as you go, anything else, I would say "no'...

Why? Because pertaining to this question the bible is clear. There is only one way to the father. No where did I say that I have anything to do with that fact.

Is that because I have some self imposed belief? No, that is because the bible states it. The bible which is the document that Christians use to define the faith. The document that is clear. Clear in the Hebrew, in the Greek, and once in a while in a English translation.




I hate to break it to "Smoked" but may it not be that whatever "Smoked" believes is nothing more than a personal version of the Christian religion? A pure sektarian belief itself ???


If you meant sectarian (adj), while probably a poor choice in words, the criteria for Christianity is narrowly defined in the bible. If you meant it as a noun.. I think that would be used better to describe you sir/mrs cred. If you meant it as some sort of sparkling whine then I will let you explain that particular inference.

Why did you cherry pick this post but never respond to the previous questions I asked you?

Like I've said before, someone has to be wrong. What if we are all wrong, there is no God, no heaven, no afterlife? What if you just die and that's it, you're worm food?


Alt,
That is truly a beautiful question. I look at it like this. If I am right, then I am good to go. If I am wrong then what did I waste? Being a better person? I worked hard, took care of my family, did all the things that non-believers did, what did I loose out on? If I am right, based on my beliefs, my trust in the lord, my trust in his inspired word, I inherit the kingdom of heaven.

I am sure a lot of religions, and people in them feel the same way.

If I am wrong then what did I waste?
Time
Money
Thinking for yourself
Holding back science education
Just to name a few.

If I am wrong then what did I waste? A life of being divisive towards your fellow man.
Telling people they were wrong when they weren't.

Science is only beginning to catch up on what God had man record in the Bible from ancient times. The Bible never claims to be a Science text book but when it does speak on nature, biology physics etc it is absolutely accurate. So what has taken man thousands of years to gain wisedom of, has been in the Bible all along. here are just a few examples..


1. Numbering the stars.

Genesis 15:5 says the stars cannot be numbered by man. Jeremiah 33:32 explains the stars are beyond numbering. And yet before the telescope was invented, man was numbering the stars. Hipparchus said in 150 B.C. there are exactly 1,026 stars. 150 years later a Roman named Ptolemy said there are 1,056, Kepler counted 1,006. Since Galileo invented the telescope in 1608, we continued to discover more stars. Up until the last few hundred years until the discovery of the telescope there were only 6,000 stars seen by the naked eye. A modern telescope of 200 inches estimates 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. And there are not millions but billions of such galaxies. The Biblical scientific insights were far in advance of four modern day science. Today, with our technology and high powered telescopes in space and astronomers estimate that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy with an additional 20-100 billion galaxies in the universe!

2. The Bible had refuted the flat earth theory long before scientists actually disproved it
Isaiah 40:20 says "He sits enthroned above the sphere of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." For centuries, man believed that the earth was flat. Christopher Columbus was criticized for setting sail to the other side of the earth, they expected Columbus to sail off the edge of the earth. When people thought it was flat God told us it was round. If they only read the Bible...

3. The Earth's Suspension in Space
Job 26:7 says "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Early man thought Atlas, a huge turtle or elephants held up the earth. Today we know it is gravity that holds the planets and stars in their orbits making them appear to be hung on nothing.

4. The water Cycle
In recent history science taught that most clouds are formed by evaporation of water from the ocean, but the Bible recorded this centuries ago. Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 says "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. "
“The phrase, 'the wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course' is an accurate and astonishing description of the circular flow of air around the earth, called the 'jet stream,' well known to anyone who watches the evening news weather reports
Job 36:27 "For He draws up the droplets of water, They distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down, They drip upon man abundantly." The condensation and evaporation only known in recent years.


5. Oceanic Hydrothermal vents
These are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
Job 38:16 tells us there are springs in the sea (this was not known until 1913 when they found underground rivers).
Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened"

6. Ocean Currents
....and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. (Psalms 8:8) we now know there are ocean currents and that many fish swim the paths of these currents.

7. The Bible also says that each star is unique.


1 Corinthians 15:41 says
"There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.

just to say a few...

Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all :)
My question is,, of all these miracles and scientific impossibilities that happened in biblical times, why do we not see these in modern times? Did all these miracles cease after the bible was completed? What made starving peasents so special? I want to see some mind blowing miracles also, so I have proof and can believe. Let's see Oprah walk on water. Let's see Carrot-top turn water into wine. I want to see 50,000,000 animals stuffed onto a small boat.

My question is,,,, of all these miracles and scientific impossibilities that happened in biblical times, why do we not see these in modern times? Did all these miracles cease after the bible was completed?
That's a very good question!

Science is only beginning to catch up on what God had man record in the Bible from ancient times. The Bible never claims to be a Science text book but when it does speak on nature, biology physics etc it is absolutely accurate. So what has taken man thousands of years to gain wisedom of, has been in the Bible all along. here are just a few examples..


1. Numbering the stars.

Genesis 15:5 says the stars cannot be numbered by man. Jeremiah 33:32 explains the stars are beyond numbering. And yet before the telescope was invented, man was numbering the stars. Hipparchus said in 150 B.C. there are exactly 1,026 stars. 150 years later a Roman named Ptolemy said there are 1,056, Kepler counted 1,006. Since Galileo invented the telescope in 1608, we continued to discover more stars. Up until the last few hundred years until the discovery of the telescope there were only 6,000 stars seen by the naked eye. A modern telescope of 200 inches estimates 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. And there are not millions but billions of such galaxies. The Biblical scientific insights were far in advance of four modern day science. Today, with our technology and high powered telescopes in space and astronomers estimate that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy with an additional 20-100 billion galaxies in the universe!

2. The Bible had refuted the flat earth theory long before scientists actually disproved it
Isaiah 40:20 says "He sits enthroned above the sphere of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." For centuries, man believed that the earth was flat. Christopher Columbus was criticized for setting sail to the other side of the earth, they expected Columbus to sail off the edge of the earth. When people thought it was flat God told us it was round. If they only read the Bible...

3. The Earth's Suspension in Space
Job 26:7 says "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Early man thought Atlas, a huge turtle or elephants held up the earth. Today we know it is gravity that holds the planets and stars in their orbits making them appear to be hung on nothing.

4. The water Cycle
In recent history science taught that most clouds are formed by evaporation of water from the ocean, but the Bible recorded this centuries ago. Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 says "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. "
“The phrase, 'the wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course' is an accurate and astonishing description of the circular flow of air around the earth, called the 'jet stream,' well known to anyone who watches the evening news weather reports
Job 36:27 "For He draws up the droplets of water, They distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down, They drip upon man abundantly." The condensation and evaporation only known in recent years.


5. Oceanic Hydrothermal vents
These are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
Job 38:16 tells us there are springs in the sea (this was not known until 1913 when they found underground rivers).
Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened"

6. Ocean Currents
....and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. (Psalms 8:8) we now know there are ocean currents and that many fish swim the paths of these currents.

7. The Bible also says that each star is unique.


1 Corinthians 15:41 says
"There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.

just to say a few...

Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all :)
SassyT. You said,, Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all.
If God knew,, why did he create something that he KNEW he was going to have to destroy many times over? Why did a perfect God create something so imperfect to begin with? Why did he create evil in the first place? It just seems like he could have came up with a better plan before he Banged it into existence.

That's a very good question!

NeedKarma,, I think it is too.

But with these questions, as I have seen many times in the past, I will be booted for the debate. They have no practical answers and I am gone from here. They simple kick you to avoid answering questions. That's the Christian way. See you...

I have done nothing of the sort.
You stated in Post # 109, referring to Catholicism :

Unfortunately people equate Christianity to this nonsense.
"Nonsense" : That is an insult to more than 1 Billion (Roman) Catholic Christians, more than half of all Christians.

:rolleyes:

.

A life of being divisive towards your fellow man.
Telling people they were wrong when they weren't.

But wait, no god then when we die we would not even be aware of our mistake. Or are you saying you believe in a afterlife, just not the one that I believe?

But wait, no god then when we die we would not even be aware of our mistake. Or are you saying you believe in a afterlife, just not the one that I believe?
Without a god you are not aware of the mistakes you make? That's odd, I don't need a god to tell me when I've made a mistake.
I said nothing of an afterlife, it doesn't enter into the discussion.

Jrwild62,
Miracles are taking place often during these days and have been for many, many years.
I've seen some.
Many people have seen some or experienced them.
There are thousands of accounts and authentic records of miraculous happenings.
Some were quite spectacular.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Well that's all the proof anyone needs.

Need karma,
Yes it is for most people.
Fred

I also healed a person who was dying. It was wonderful.

I also healed a person who was dying. It was wonderful.
If that is true, that must be a wonderful feeling. Tell us why you did, what you did, and how you did that, please.

As unpaid volunteer I assist patients during their last couple of weeks of their life here in the local hospes. I have never seen any such miracle healings. All patients die. Sad, but a fact.
I do not believe in miracles...

:(

The other issue with Pascal's wager is we all could be wrong. There are more gods than just the Christian god. You could be sent to a hell worse than me because the real god feels that believing in a false god is worse than not believing at all.

The other issue with Pascal's wager is we all could be wrong.
Pascal's wager was proved to be false as validation for Christianity. It is strange that so many Christians do not seem to know that...

:)

Without a god you are not aware of the mistakes you make? That's odd, I don't need a god to tell me when I've made a mistake.
I said nothing of an afterlife, it doesn't enter into the discussion.

How sir would you be aware of a mistake in death with out afterlife? Please explain?

You stated in Post # 109, referring to Catholicism :

"Nonsense" : That is an insult to more than 1 Billion (Roman) Catholic Christians, more than half of all Christians.

:rolleyes:

.

Let me jump right onto wiki and fix that definition for you so that it reflects correct data.

I want to believe in miracles. :)

I have seen many things in my life that cannot be explained. I wouldn't go so far as to call them miracles though.

As for an afterlife. I want to believe that heaven exists. Am I convinced that it does? No, sadly I'm not.

Is there a place where my parents are, where they are waiting for me, where we will be reunited? God I hope so. But once again, if there isn't, then it won't matter a lot after I die, in fact it matters more to me now then it will then.

NeedKarma
Good for you.
I DO believe in miracles for I have seen some.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

How sir would you be aware of a mistake in death with out afterlife? Please explain?
I don't understand what you mean by "a mistake in death", can you explain please?

[QUOTE=NeedKarma;1284903]
Telling people they were wrong when they weren't.[/QUOTE

Sorry, let me explain. If I am telling people they are wrong how would I ever know unless there is some afterlife? No one would know until they die. So if you are right and there is no afterlife then what will it matter? It won't... but back to other point. Are you suggesting there is life after death? Just not the one that I believe in?

You don't consider that telling people they are wrong is perhaps a little insulting to them? All I hear is you talking about yourself.

I didn't suggest anything about an afterlife though I don't believe there is one.

God created free moral agents. If you are free, you can choose wrong. Anything else is merely a robot.

Angels are free moral agents too, and we have a long history on one of them who chose wrong.

So no, (in the sense you use it) God did not create evil. He created beings that can choose to be evil.

God created free moral agents.
Correction : you BELIEVE that the clamed-to-exist God entity created "free moral agents".

:rolleyes:

God created free moral agents. If you are free, you can choose wrong. Anything else is merely a robot.

Angels are free moral agents too, and we have a long history on one of them who chose wrong.

So no, (in the sense you use it) God did not create evil. He created beings that can choose to be evil.

Well, that's a bit mean of him, isn't it?

In other words, he gave us free will but it is our job to find the right way, to find God, to worship him? Why so many options? It really isn't fair to create free moral agents, give them all these options and then condem them if they make the wrong choice.

Altenweg,
When we raised our kids we told them what was right and wrong.
It was their choice whether to follow the right path or not and what the consequences of their choice would be.
I believe God did the same with us through His word, the bible.
To top that off he gave us a conscience to help guide us.
I have so much faith in that that I am sure of it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I respect your right to believe that Fred, I really do, but I disagree.

I do not believe that the bible is the word of God, merely the word of man, therefore I do not base my beliefs on the bible, nor do I choose a path based on the bibles teachings.

But, for the sake of conversation, the bible, if the basis of your beliefs, is not clear on which religion is the correct one.

Of course every religion that uses the bible as the basis for their belief claims that the bible clearly states that their religion is the correct one.

So, who is right?

The problem with the bible is that it isn't clear. Why? Because it was written by man. If God had written the bible then the instructions therein would be clear as a bell.

Now conscience I do possess, and I use it well. I have chosen a different path than you, and that's fine. If heaven exists I'm sure that God will see fit to admit all good people into paradise, no matter which path they chose.

Peace. :)

Altenweg,
I was already aware of you beliefs which I respect for you.
I was merely expressing mine and hoping you and others who read it understood why.
I also believe that God inspired men (in their time, culture and understanding) to write what is now in the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I too am aware of your beliefs Fred, and though I don't agree I do respect your right to believe that. :)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. :)

Peace.

Altenweg
Agree to disagreem,
Yes.
It is nice to get along.
Nice is good.
Fred

Now that I agree with. :)

Peace. :)

SassyT. You said,,,, Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all.
If God knew,,,, why did he create something that he KNEW he was going to have to destroy many times over?

What are you asking me for? I am not God. Ask Him.

My question is,,,, of all these miracles and scientific impossibilities that happened in biblical times, why do we not see these in modern times? Did all these miracles cease after the bible was completed? What made starving peasents so special? I wanna see some mind blowing miracles also, so I have proof and can believe. Let's see Oprah walk on water. Let's see Carrot-top turn water into wine. I wanna see 50,000,000 animals stuffed onto a small boat.

Such miracles happen all the time! I was in healing service once where I witnessed a blind eyes open, a paralytic healed, and I also witnessed with my own eyes a child who had one leg shorter that the other, his leg grew 2 inches right before our eyes. Miracles happen all the time, the dead are even raised! Nothing is impossible to them that believe. I see miracles happen in my own life. But of course to you that is all fake.. go figure :rolleyes:

Such miracles happen all the time! I was in healing service once where i witnessed a blind eyes open, a paralytic healed, and i also witnessed with my own eyes a child who had one leg shorter that the other, his leg grew 2 inches right before our eyes. Miracles happen all the time, the dead are even raised! But ofcourse to you that is all fake.. go figure :rolleyes:

Why is there no solid evidence of such feats?

and i also witnessed with my own eyes a child who had one leg shorter that the other, his leg grew 2 inches right before our eyes.So how come you never hear of an amputee get their limb back no matter how hard they pray?

what are you asking me for? i am not God. Ask Him.

If you can't answer even a simple question like that how are we suppose to believe that you know anything about god at all. With your god your allowed to make up answers for questions like this and you can't even make up an answer that works. Doesn't that strike you as odd.

On a side note I think it is apparent who has a job where they stare at their email all day long.

On a side note I think it is apparent who has a job where they stare at their email all day long.

Haha, actually it's the end of the day for me, my hobby is staring at my e-mail :p

God created free moral agents. If you are free, you can choose wrong. Anything else is merely a robot.

Angels are free moral agents too, and we have a long history on one of them who chose wrong.

So no, (in the sense you use it) God did not create evil. He created beings that can choose to be evil.

That's right.. Well Said. :)

sassyT,
I also went to a healing service conducted by Father DeOrio and saw what he said the Holy Spirit was doing.
People I knew were healed for various problems plus some others, many were not.
I was not.
The Holy Spirit chose who would be healed.
I had to accept that.
I have seen other miracles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Why is there no solid evidence of such feats?

Just watch one episode of the Benny Hinn Healing Crusades and there is your evidence. If it is not sufficient for you then I can help you. I am not here to convince you of anything. Your believing me or not has no material effect on the fact that God does miracles and I have witnessed them. :)

If you can't answer even a simple question like that how are we suppose to believe that you know anything about god at all. With your god your allowed to make up answers for questions like this and you can't even make up an answer that works. Doesn't that strike you as odd.

No actually it doesn't. There are a lot of things I don't know about God and why He does certain things. My human mind can not even begin to comprehend an omnipotent omniscient, omnipresent Being who has no begging and no end, so how can I even claim I know everything about Him?
What I do know about Him is sufficient for me. So if you have questions about Him that I can not answer, you can ask Him yourself by developing a relationship with Him. I talk to Him every day and He reveals a lot of things to me. So I urge you to ask Him any questions you may have.

sassyT
Very good responses.
Fred

sassyT,
I also went to a healing service conducted by Father DeOrio and saw what he said the Holy Spirit was doing.
People I knew were healed for various problems plus some others, many were not.
I was not.
The Holy Spirit chose who would be healed.
I had to accept that.
I have seen other miracles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes that right Acura. My Brother had full blown AIDS and weighted 80lb on his Death bed and God Healed him. He is fully recovered, no trace of the HIV. A true modern day miracle!

Just watch one episode of the Benny Hinn Healing Crusades and there is your evidence. If it is not sufficient for you then i can help you. I am not here to convince you of anything. Your believing me or not has no material effect on the fact that God does miracles and i have witnessed them. :)

I mean, why are no scientists invited to these healing sessions to write up evidence to publish in journals? This would be a huge scientific breakthrough.

Well, that's a bit mean of him, isn't it?

In other words, he gave us free will but it is our job to find the right way, to find God, to worship him? Why so many options? It really isn't fair to create free moral agents, give them all these options and then condem them if they make the wrong choice.

Its very fair! You just have to make the right choice. It's that simple.. lol
Jesus said " I put before you life and Death, choose life"
It is amazing how many people choose death.

I mean, why are no scientists invited to these healing sessions to write up evidence to publish in journals? this would be a huge scientific breakthrough.

Lol.. Scientific break through?? You are joking right?
The things of God are have nothing to do with what human "science".. these are supernatural miracles...
Just so you dong get it twisted let me school you on something...
In case you were not aware of this, Science is the study of natural phenomena, therefore science can never be used to explain or study the supernatural. ;)

Meaning it doesn't work on a regular basis and that if you actually study it. The people weren't really healed and the people that were healed were not healed anymore than a control group. Isn't that what your saying by it being beyond study because if we could study it then it and show that this was not the case then it would be a break through. In your own words though it can never be studied because it is made up or supernatural.

lol.. Scientific break through??? you are joking right?
the things of God are have nothing to do with what human "science".. these are supernatural miracles...
Just so you dong get it twisted let me school you on something....
Incase you were not aware of this, Science is the study of natural phenomena, therefore science can never be used to explain or study the supernatural. ;)

Increased rate of healing (or even naturally impossible healing) would be a completely observable phenomenon. Why could it not be studied? If something happens in our world, then it's natural and worthy of scientific enquiry.

[QUOTE=Credendovidis;1279316]For Smoked + Galveston1 + De Maria + Arcura + whoever else agrees with the topic header .

Actually the topic header is :


I have the following disagreements with that header :


"God"?? "God" is a CLAIMED to exist deity.
There simply is no OSE for "God's" existence.

Cred, yes, this is what you BELIEVE regarding the existence of God.



And - surprise surprise ! - there is not any OSE for "God" to have established anything at all.
So neither is there is any OSE for "God" to have established anything

Again, this your belief regarding God.




Besides that there is no OSE for "God's" existence, nor for "God" having established anything at all , nothing really noteworthy happened to earth for the last 63 MILLION years (other than perhaps a "homo sapiens" investation, that currently is threatening to destroy the environment of the planet).

Again Cred this is what you believe.


... "thousands of years" is a preposterous statement, that has to be seen in the light of the creationist's claim that the earth etc. is only approx, 6.400 years old (a total ridiculous claim in view of the science supported fact that earth + solar system is already 4,6 BILLION years old.

Again cred this is your opinion and belief on the matter



Besides that there is no OSE for "God's" existence, nor for "God" having established anything, nor for "God's" claimed creation to be thousands of years old, there is one more point that is ludicrous :
Science is not in some sort of match against "God". As far as REAL SCIENCE is concerned there is no "God".

Again These are your Beliefs regarding Science and God.


Science is not catching up at all. How can you catch up with a wild claim without any OSE support ? So far as I know there is no OSE for god/gods at all, so it remains with that BELIEF ONLY.
Therefore science has overtaken and corrected anything that ever has been religious claimed. That includes anything irrespectful of specific religious belief..

Yes this is what you Believe.


NOTE 1 : Science demands that claims are supported by OSE.
NOTE 2 : Science demands that any Theory or Thesis is frequently checked against the latest findings and possible mistakes - thereby correcting itself and insuring that the data is as near to reality as possible.

Yes! This is the only factual statement you have made in this entire post.


Unlike religion, where there are only CLAIMS combined into a story and rules (called DOGMA) that is beyond any scrutiny, it even is beyond any real discussion. You simply has to accept it (You have to BELIEVE it).

However these are just your Beliefs regarding religion.




So back to the topic header :

"Science is now catching up with what God already established thousand of years ago"

A totally unsupported and preposterous wild claim : nothing else!!

This is your opinion based on your Atheistic beliefs. :)

Just watch one episode of the Benny Hinn Healing Crusades and there is your evidence.

Like this?

gr_YaQXbaLM

Actually when you have evidence for things they stop becoming beliefs and become facts. When you don't have evidence they are beliefs. You can believe something other than the facts but that doesn't make the facts beliefs.

Increased rate of healing (or even naturally impossible healing) would be a completely observable phenomenon. Why could it not be studied? If something happens in our world, then it's natural and worthy of scientific enquiry.

Oh Okey, I see.. if you are talking about the kinds of studies that can be done as Michealb said above then these studdies have already been done.
Check these articles out.


Researchers Look at Prayer and Healing (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032302177.html)
HowStuffWorks "Can prayer heal people?" (http://health.howstuffworks.com/prayer-healing.htm)
Prayer and Faith Healing, Proof that prayer works (http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm)
Scientific Evidence of Prayer, Miracles, God and Christianity (http://awesomepower.net/prayerstudies.htm)

The bottom line is miracles happen everyday. Like I said I have witnessed my own brother healed from full blow AIDS by the power of God. Now my brother travels the world preaching the gospel sharing his testimony with the world. I don't need science to prove God does miracles, because I have seen them first hand in my own life.
If you choose to believe you can experience the same miracles yourself. Nothing is impossible to them that believe! :D

Actually when you have evidence for things they stop becoming beliefs and become facts. When you don't have evidence they are beliefs. You can believe something other than the facts but that doesn't make the facts beliefs.

Yes, I am yet to see Cred prove that his belief that God is a myth, is an actual Fact. Until he proves it.. it remains another one of his many BELIEFS.

Oh Okey, i see.. if you are talking about the kinds of studies that can be done as Michealb said above then these studdies have already been done.
Check these articles out.


Researchers Look at Prayer and Healing (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032302177.html)
HowStuffWorks "Can prayer heal people?" (http://health.howstuffworks.com/prayer-healing.htm)
Prayer and Faith Healing, Proof that prayer works (http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm)
Scientific Evidence of Prayer, Miracles, God and Christianity (http://awesomepower.net/prayerstudies.htm)

The bottom line is miracles happen everyday. Like i said i have witnessed my own brother healed from full blow AIDS by the power of God. Now my brother travels the world preaching the gospel sharing his testimony with the world. I dont need science to prove God does miracles, because i have seen them first hand in my own life.
If you choose to believe you can experience the same miracles yourself. Nothing is impossible to them that believe! :D

Those links all confirm that there is scant scientific evidence for intercessory prayer providing any benefit.

It's quite easy to show that miracles happen everyday. If you define a miracle as an event that has a 1 in a million chance of happening, and assume that the average person witnesses one event every second, then the average person should expect a miracle once every 30 days. Miracles are normal without God. Statistical anomalies are to be expected - we live in a statistical world.

God is a negative. You can't disprove a god. Until he is proven he remains a negative and it is a fact that he doesn't exist. Just as I have no evidence that a teapot doesn't orbit between here and mars but it's still a fact that there is no teapot in orbit between here and mars. That is the way you have to address things in a logical world to do other wise is fantasy.

Those links all confirm that there is scant scientific evidence for intercessory prayer providing any benefit.

It's quite easy to show that miracles happen everyday. If you define a miracle as an event that has a 1 in a million chance of happening, and assume that the average person witnesses one event every second, then the average person should expect a miracle once every 30 days. Miracles are normal without God. Statistical anomalies are to be expected - we live in a statistical world.

Like I said before, your believing or disbelieving in miracles has not material effect on the fact that God does miracles in my life and many other Christians everyday. I am not here to convince or convert you, so I am not going to argue with you. So if you believe miracles don't happen, good for you, that is just your opnion on the matter. So lets just leave it at that. ;)

I am not here to convince or convert youSo why did you start this thread?

Have you ever seen magma? No? But yet, you claim to KNOW it exists. Sure, you say, others have seen it and proved it. But not YOU. Others claim to have seen God and KNOW Him to be true. Why would it be true for one thing but not true for the other?

To say that it is fact that God doesn't exist because His existence hasn't been proven my our limited minds is just ignorant.

sassyT,
Science HAS investigates and confirmed MANY miracles. Most of them were healings.
Just like your father.
He had HIV killing him now he does not.
Science conformed that the healing to place.
Such healing have taken place in recent years in many places around the world.
And science confirmed that they did take place.
Those are fact of science.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

God is a negative. You can't disprove a god. Until he is proven he remains a negative and it is a fact that he doesn't exist. Just as I have no evidence that a teapot doesn't orbit between here and mars but it's still a fact that there is no teapot in orbit between here and mars. That is the way you have to address things in a logical world to do other wise is fantasy.

God is a negative to you yes because you don't know Him. I know Him so he is not a negative to me.

Have you ever seen magma? no? but yet, you claim to KNOW it exists. Sure, you say, others have seen it and proved it. But not YOU. Others claim to have seen God and KNOW Him to be true. Why would it be true for one thing but not true for the other?

To say that it is fact that God doesn't exist because His existence hasn't been proven my our limited minds is just ignorant.

That true.. lol these athiests should speak for themselves. Just because they have not had the opportunity to encounter God, they think that means he does not exist. :rolleyes:

Have you ever seen magma? no? but yet, you claim to KNOW it exists. Sure, you say, others have seen it and proved it. But not YOU. Others claim to have seen God and KNOW Him to be true. Why would it be true for one thing but not true for the other?

To say that it is fact that God doesn't exist because His existence hasn't been proven my our limited minds is just ignorant.

Your mind might be limited. I however am one of the smartest beings in the solar system perhaps the universe. If I don't believe in magma and want proof I can go see magma. If I want to see god, I can't go see him. It's more like bigfoot people claim to see and know bigfoot and if you ask the general population they will tell you he is real but he really doesn't exist.

Have you ever seen magma? no? but yet, you claim to KNOW it exists. Sure, you say, others have seen it and proved it. But not YOU. Others claim to have seen God and KNOW Him to be true. Why would it be true for one thing but not true for the other?.KMlEYIw2_WY

Your mind might be limited. I however am one of the smartest beings in the solar system perhaps the universe. If I don't believe in magma and want proof I can go see magma. If I want to see god, I can't go see him. It's more like bigfoot people claim to see and know bigfoot and if you ask the general population they will tell you he is real but he really doesn't exist.

Well, 2nd smartest being at best ;)

And you are correct. If you want proof that magma exists, you can go see magma. But of course, you first must be open to the possibility that magma exists in the first place.

And if you want proof that God exists, you can go see God. Of course, you first must be open to the possibility that God exists in the first place.

And of course, you would need a clear definition of what both magma and God really are.

The general populations opinion does not concern more nor does it have an effect on what I know to be true.

[quote=NeedKarma]

Nice magma video dude! What did they use? CGI? Lol

Check it out! BigFoot!

YouTube - BigFoot sighting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ax0-JZrwsA)

It seems to me that with this thread religion starts now catching up with the possibility that God is no longer surely established after thousand of years ago because of science...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

.

And if you want proof that God exists, you can go see God. Of course, you first must be open to the possibility that God exists in the first place.

Where do you keep him? If you can prove god to everyone like you can magma why are there so many religions? Surely if god speaks to those that listen some one is being told wrong information. Which means either there are multiple gods telling different people different things or people think they are talking to god and really only talking to themselves. I know my answer.

Michaelb,
God does exist for billions of people. They know Him and pray to Him. He answers many of their prayers and yet today still performs miracles.
That is enough proof for me and many millions of others.
As far as I am concerned He save my life during the Korean War and has answered many of my prayers.
That and more has established my religious faith.
A religious faith is much more that JUST belief.
It is belief plus trust and a knowing.
I know that God exist and my savior lives.
I am very comfortable with that.
I just though that you might like to know.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

God does exist to billions of people
God also doesn't exist to billions of people
Also billions of people believe in a different god.
Who all feel that god is speaking to them but god says different things to different people.
So either there are multiple gods or someone is wrong. If someone is wrong that means everyone is likely to be wrong.

michealb,
I do not agree with your conclusion.
The God of all deals with His children His way not to our way of thinking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

So do you believe that all religions are equally true? Even the new ones and that they all are inspired by the same god he just tells them to do different things?

So even people that worship Zeus worship your god they just don't know it because your god told them something different?

Where do you keep him? If you can prove god to everyone like you can magma why are there so many religions? Surely if god speaks to those that listen some one is being told wrong information. Which means either there are multiple gods telling different people different things or people think they are talking to god and really only talking to themselves. I know my answer.

I keep Him in my pocket. Luckily for me, He can shrink from infinite-size to pocket-size... for easy travel.

Maybe I should state that I am not exactly a Christian... and I would certainly not try to prove that God exists by referencing the Bible or reciting clichés.

And also, I didn't say that I can prove God to you or anyone other than myself. What I said was if YOU want to go see God, YOU can go see God... but first, you must be open to possibility that God exists... which it's clear, you're not.

Where were we going with this?

Oh yeah... that.

I'm pretty sure God is NOT the white-bearded dude sitting in a golden chair that floats on top of the clouds. I'm pretty sure that no one can quite fathom just what God is... but the simple fact, there is no better word to refer to God other than God... and at the same time, there is no worse word.

The problem is that man doesn't have the vocabulary to explain God... we don't even have the wisdom/knowledge to understand God.

We use words like "spoke into existence" because we had no other way to try and describe whatever it was that happened.

We ARE created in His image... but so is everything. It's like saying that atom created the molecule in Its image... well duh. God is me, God is you, God is ice cream, God is AIDS, God is Life and God is Death, God is Buddha, God is Christ, God is Allah, God is the Devil (I know some of you are just loving this right now)... simply put, God is.

But the last place you want to look for God is in Religion.

I understand that Science tries to rebuke God but really, the battle is between Science and Religion. God is not hard to prove, if you are willing. Religion, on the other hand, is impossible.

</ramblingsofamadman?>

The God of all deals with His children His way not to our way of thinking.
Remember Pascal's Wager, Fred : if you believe in the wrong "God" you are damned...
But nobody can prove that he/she believes in the right "God".
And nobody can prove that there is a right "God/Gods".
So is/are there (a) right "God/Gods". Or is that BELIEF BASED ONLY??

On what OSE can Christians base their BELIEF that they have "right" "God"?

:rolleyes:

.

Cred,
Pascal's wager does not bother me at all.
I KNOW the God I believe in exists.
That is all I need. I need no wagers.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I KNOW the God I believe in exists.
You call that "know" but it is no more than what you BELIEVE to be.
Of course you may EXPERIENCE that as knowing...

Have a nice day too, Fred !

John

:)

.

Cred,
I said that I KNOW God exists.
God proved that to me.
Fred

I said that I KNOW God exists. God proved that to me.
Dear Fred,

As I stated in "God is amazing" :

You say that you KNOW that God exixts.
But you do not KNOW that, dear Fred. You BELIEVE that.
And that is the reason why you keep repeating that you know, but keep failing to provide the OSE to prove that what you claim to know is anything more than what you actually BELIEVE!!

From me you may BELIEVE anything you want, and assume that personally as a fact.
But it only becomes a fact as in factual / reality as soon as you provide OSE for that.

And remember : it is not I who needs to prove anything, dear Fred.
I do not claim anything. I ask you to support that what you claim to be factual with OSE.
And as long as you do not do that, all you claim to "know" is what you BELIEVE.

:)

.

Cred,
I disagree.
Please do NOT try to tell me that I don't know.
I tell you I do know that God exists
I know what I know, but YOU can believe as you wish.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Please do NOT try to tell me that I don't know.
I tell you I do know that God exists.
No Fred : you BELIEVE that. If you really KNEW (as in "fact/factual"), you would post about that knowledge...

:)

.

Cred,
NO!!
I know that God exists.
He proved it to me.
I'm sorry that you can not understand that.
Fred

Cred, NO!!! I know that God exists. He proved it to me.

Dear Fred : that is no proof. That is some personal confirmation based on what you believe, and how your belief influences your thinking.

Of course as I have said so many times, you may BELIEVE that, but that does not make it reality. If it was reality, you could OSE prove that whatever happened to you could ONLY be caused by "God".
But you can't do that. Because your claims on "God" and "God's" actions are all based on BELIEF and on nothing else.


I'm sorry that you can not understand that
I understand what you say, Fred. I just do not agree with what you say.

I do not know why you are so persistent with that "I know".
It seems to show that you find that the general meaning of "TO BELIEVE" is something inferior to your experience, which you call "TO KNOW".
I see that often also with other Christians who use the term "faith" as some more valuable format of "to believe".

Religion is based on BELIEF, Fred. On nothing but BELIEF.
You may - like you do - give it any other name, but it remains just BELIEF !

:rolleyes:

.

How do you know the right god proved it to you?
By proving it to you didn't this god take away your free will to not worship him and if he can take away your free will why not prove it to all of us?
How do you know your not being fooled by some minor god?
Some god that wants to take you away from the truth?
If you say because you know, are you really so sure of yourself that you think you couldn't be fooled by a god even a minor one?
What about the other people who know there god exists and were told to do something completely different are they making it up?
Isn't it just as likely that there is no god and your believe is simply a by product of evolution and culture?

As ever the thread has become circular again

>Thread Closed<