Hello everybody I recently bought a water softner and I'm having trouble trying to figure out on how to install it. My house is 3 years old so we have the pex plumbing and there is no loop done currently. They ran all the water lines into one single maniblock which the maniblock says vanguard on it. So is there anyone out there that could help me figure this out it would be much appreciated so thank you in advance. Signed seriously frustrated

Dear seriously frustrated. Don't fret. You need to find the water line coming into the house before it converts to Pex. Nowadays, it is usually PVC, or Polyethylene. You just intercept that line, elbow off the incoming from your meter, go to the softener with PVC, then go out of the softener with PVC and elbow back into the main line before it goes into the house.

If they used Poly as the main line coming in, it will convert to either PVC or copper before going to Pex. At least that is the way they are here in FL.
Al

Al, that's the way we install if we run into major issue when doing a retro fit. However, that makes the whole house soft water and that's not necessary or desirable. You don't want soft water going to your outside spigot of the cold at the kitchen sink. Soft water sodium levels are pretty high and would hurt outside plants and lawn and probably get the hairs on your doctors neck to stand up. That interception should work just fine if you do it right at the water heater. Depending on how the house is plumbed you could tap just before the water heater and still branch off to pick up some of the cold lines like to the bathroom. Again depending on how its plumbed that may not be feasible.
Bob

Bob,
You are right, there is no sense in irrigating with softened water. I can certainly understand your concerns. However, I install these all of the time like this. I usually try to intercept just before the entry of the house. Usually the irrigation line comes off before it enters the house, or if there are only outside spigots, I install one ahead of the softener. There is not much you can do about outside spigots that go through the house plumbing first.

But, I definitely want soft water on all of the interior of the house. It helps to avoid buildup in all of the pipes, and helps to save all fixtures etc. from hard-water build up and staining. It also dramatically reduces the amount of soap one has to use. I think it depends on if the person likes softened water or not. I personally wouldn't have anything but softened water. It is likely that the person that is posting wants soft water, or they wouldn't have bought a softener.

The salt issue is truly not a major consideration, because there is such a minuscule amount of salt remaining in the water after regeneration. The salt is only used to regenerate the resin. It "reactivates" the positively charged ion bed, so that negatively charged ions will cling to them. If a person is concerned about sodium in their diet, they can use potassium chloride to regenerate instead of sodium chloride. Or, they can install a reverse osmosis for their drinking water.
Al

I am guessing you are younger than 60 years of age. The first question my doctor asked when he saw my high BP was if my tap water was softened. Soft water sodium levels are higher than well or city water. Not so much that you can taste salty water but enough to affect geezers like me who drink and cook with water. I have done many homes like you describe simply because their construction and plumbing allowed not other avenue. A new home will not have soft water at the kitchen sink or any outside spigots or irrigation. Here is a fun little test for our kids or grand kids science fair experiment. Get two identical pans filled with potting soil. Sprinkle and mix in grass seed from the same bag. Irrigate one with straight plain water and the other with softened water. Tell me in two weeks how they are doing. Great science fair exhibit. Bottom line, both appraoaches will work butnew construction would take my track. Respectfully, Bob

I still don't understand why they would want hard water at the kitchen sink. I think your doc is wrong. I have done the lab #'s, they don't support his theory. A large majority of my work is with Public water systems that have to test for sodium, and tons of other stuff. In my business, I treat public water systems when they have failures. I have treated for radiation, arsenic, disinfection byproducts (caused by chlorine), iron manganese, etc. I know the numbers inside-out. I have many public water systems that have softened water due to nitrate, radiation, or other issues. They wouldn't allow us to install softeners on those systems, if the softeners would create sodium failures, it would defeat the purpose of the treatment. It is very highly regulated! I spec treatment plants for engineers, who draw and submit them. Then, I install them after they are approved.

We have to do many follow up samples. We have never had one increase sodium to the point of non-compliance with regulations. That is after 100's of systems over about 20 years.

For what it's worth...
Al

It depends on where the maniblock system is located ,and how the plumbing contractor plumbed the system. We would always keep the spigots separate from the maniblock in case the home owner decided to go to a soft water system. Most home owners like to keep their softeners in the garage area. Have a licensed plumbing contractor take a look at your system and give his best recommendation, adding softeners to existing homes is nothing new, it just takes being creative sometimes. Goodluck---Zeke---

I guess it all depend on where you get your research from. Soft Water - It's Not For Drinking (http://www.triangularwave.com/f7.htm)

Bob,
I can understand how things get twisted around for sure. There are 4 major agencies that help to govern safe drinking water. DEP Department of Environmental Protection, EPA Environmental Protection Agency, NSF National Sanitation Foundation, and WQA Water Quality Association. I checked out the web-site that you referred to. Please click the link from the web-site to the City of Nashville. The article was removed from the city's web-site for unfounded, and untrue information. This was after the pressing of the Water Quality Association. I pasted the article here in quotes. Or, you can click this link for their site... http://www.wqa.org/pdf/IndustryUpdates/IU-feb06.pdf

"Joseph F. Harrison, PE, CWS-VI. “It's unfortunate that a public water utility would publish that in the first place, however, we do look forward to working with Nashville on any future articles on softened water,” he said. In November, a number of WQA members alerted us to an online article entitled “Soft Water: It's Not for Drinking,” posted by the water utility. The article included inaccuracies about water softening and the affects of consuming softened water. Among the misleading and/or false statements, the article suggested that soft water more aggressively leaches metals from water lines; that softeners should be considered solely for laundry purposes; that zeolite beads may back-siphon into toilet tanks and attack vital plumbing parts; and that softeners can boost a person's sodium intake. Harrison wrote a letter to the utility's public information officer in response, refuting the article's claims by citing Environmental Protection Agency research and other sources. Harrison ultimately requested the article be removed from the agency's Web site."

It appears that the company's web-site offers that info to promote their own treatment technology. It is unscrupulous business to operate that way. I am going to file a complaint with WQA to have them pursue that un-truth.

The fact is that ion-exchange using salt for regeneration does add trace amounts of salt to water, as I acknowledged earlier. But, it is minuscule. If a person who has a softener is concerned about that, they should install an under the sink RO.

I am not a softener salesman. Those guys are generally un-professional, and un-trained. I am a certified water treatment operator for public water systems. I work with regulators constantly. As previously stated, I have done several ion-exchange installations on communities, etc. I have sodium sample results, both before and after the installation of the equipment. Those results are done by third party independent labs. And, the public water suppliers who use those must continue to monitor for sodium and a couple of hundred other parameters. That is part of National Department of Environmental Protection's regulation.

I constantly refute false statements made by so-called water treatment companies, aka softener salesmen. I have had them tell homeowners that their water was unsafe and try to sell them $10,000 treatment equipment without even doing testing! The average homeowner is not going to spend the money to do the testing, and treatment companies are banking on that.

The unfortunate thing about all of this is that there are legitimate concerns about water quality. I would be more concerned about the things that a softener can remove such as radiation, than I would be about trace salt. There are also salt-based ion-exchange units that remove arsenic, nitrates, sulfates, etc. Trace salt, or trace radiation, which would you rather drink?

If I wasn't 100% sure that a water softener wasn't safe, I sure wouldn't have it on my water.

I am not trying to pretend for one second that I know everything. Until they imposed new rules for arsenic, I didn't know how to treat it. I am learning all of the time. Since I do so many highly-regulated community systems, I am always getting more education.

Have a good day Bob.
Sincerely,
Al

One more comment on the doctor's comments. I made a pretty crass comment. ("He is wrong"). He is going on articles such as the one that you sent me. But, we have plenty of documentation available through credible water regulators that indicate otherwise.

As you and I have both said, error on the side of caution if it is a concern. Use an RO for the drinking water if sodium is a concern.
Al

Al, you have been a big help and have debunked some crap I thought was fact. My doctor also thought this info was true so I'll share this newly found info. Thanks a ton pal, Bob

Sure Bob,
Glad I was able to help. You'll appreciate this statement... science is science. It is hard to argue with scientific proof. Even if it defies logic, or gut instinct sometimes! :)
Al