When St. Elizabeth greets Mary the Mother of Jesus, she says:

Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

I believe she is recognizing that Jesus is God and therefore means Mother of my God.

What do you think she means?

Lord simply means a person in authority. It's use is not exclusive to God. If you want to see someone refer to God, look at what Thomas said:

John 20:27-28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
NKJV

If "my lord" meant "My God", then Thomas would not have added the "My God" comment. But He did because it is important to note that Jesus is not just Lord (which could mean that He was just a man with authority), but He is also God.

Mary is referred to as "mother of my lord", not "mother of God" or "mother of my God". She was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, not the mother of His divinity. Jesus' divinity pre-existed Mary and therefore she could not have been the mother of God.

Yes I agree with Tj. 1 Pet 3:6 speaks of Sarah calling her husband Abraham "Lord" but I'm sure she didn't think he was God. It was a sign of respect and recognision of authority as Tj mentioned.

Lord simply means a person in authority. It's use is not exclusive to God. If you want to see someone refer to God, look at what Thomas said:

John 20:27-28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
NKJV

If "my lord" meant "My God", then Thomas would not have added the "My God" comment. But He did because it is important to note that Jesus is not just Lord (which could mean that He was just a man with authority), but He is also God.

That is a Hebrewism. Thomas is simply emphasizing that Jesus is God.


Mary is referred to as "mother of my lord", not "mother of God" or "mother of my God". She was the mother of Jesus in the flesh, not the mother of His divinity. Jesus' divinity pre-existed Mary and therefore she could not have been the mother of God.

Why else would she speak of the child in Mary's womb as a person in authority?

Are you saying that Elizabeth is denying that Jesus is God?


Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes I agree with Tj. 1 Pet 3:6 speaks of Sarah calling her husband Abraham "Lord" but I'm sure she didn't think he was God. It was a sign of respect and recognision of authority as Tj mentioned.

Does anybody think that Abraham is God?

What do people mean when they say, "Jesus is Lord!"?

Sincerely,

De Maria

That is a Hebrewism. Thomas is simply emphasizing that Jesus is God.

That is your assumption.

The Jews, in Hebrew use the word "YHWH" which has been translated as Lord in the OT in many Bibles. It is, however, not the only word translated as lord, which is why you find that when it is YHWH that is translated as "lord", most Bibles put it in capital letters as "LORD".

In the NT, you will see that God is often referred to as lord, but so are others who are not God. That is why we find frequently use of the term "Lord God" to designate who is being referred to. We also find other indiactions when it is God. But lord does not always means God in either the OT or NT. Examples of exceptions are:

2 Sam 24:3
3 And Joab said to the king, "Now may the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?"
NKJV

Note the contrast between the submission to the lordship (authority) or God versus the lordship (authority) of the king? This is not suggesting that the king was God or thought to be a god, but rather it refers to the authority.

Matt 25:19-20
19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, 'Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.'
NKJV

Again, the lord of the servants - basically their boss.

The same is true of the House of Lords in Britain - are they all gods? Or is it with reference to their authority? Any person can be a lord, but there is only one who can be called "My Lord and My God".

Let's look at the dictionary definition:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lord

1. a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler.
2. a person who exercises authority from property rights; an owner of land, houses, etc.
3. a person who is a leader or has great influence in a chosen profession: the great lords of banking.
4. a feudal superior; the proprietor of a manor.
5. a titled nobleman or peer; a person whose ordinary appellation contains by courtesy the title Lord or some higher title.
6. Lords, the Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal comprising the House of Lords.
7. (initial capital letter) (in Britain)
a. the title of certain high officials (used with some other title, name, or the like): Lord Mayor of London.
b. the formally polite title of a bishop: Lord Bishop of Durham.
c. the title informally substituted for marquis, earl, viscount, etc. as in the use of Lord Kitchener for Earl Kitchener.
8. (initial capital letter) the Supreme Being; God; Jehovah.
9. (initial capital letter) the Savior, Jesus Christ.
10. Astrology. A planet having dominating influence.
–interjection
11. (often initial capital letter) (used in exclamatory phrases to express surprise, elation, etc.): Lord, what a beautiful day!
—Idiom
12. lord it, to assume airs of importance and authority; behave arrogantly or dictatorially; domineer: to lord it over the menial workers.
(Source: Dictionary.com)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice that every definition refers to a position of authority. Only 8 and 9 are specific to God, and even then it only refers to how Bibles choose to translate a present the text with all capitalization when, for example, YHWH is translated to LORD in the Old Testament.

So, No, despite your claim, "My Lord" does not mean the same as "My God"

Does anybody think that Abraham is God?

What do people mean when they say, "Jesus is Lord!"?


They can mean many things. Some do not believe that He is God and are simply referring to His authority which they claim is simply delegated by God. Others speak of His authority as God. But in both cases, it is in reference to His authority, not His nature. Unless we had the specific indication in scripture that he is God, if all scripture said was that Jesus is a "lord", we would be hard pressed to claim, as a doctrine that He is God. The reason that we know for a fact that Jesus is God is because, from Genesis to Revelation, we are told that Jesus is God.

When St. Elizabeth greets Mary the Mother of Jesus, she says:

Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

I believe she is recognizing that Jesus is God and therefore means Mother of my God.

What do you think she means?
All:

Holding the view that Mary was NOT the mother of God is akin to the error Nestroianism. Nestorius (circa 425 A.D.) held the unorthodox view that the essence(s) of Christ were separated into two natures, the man Jesus and the God that was Christ. In failing to recognize that Mary is the Mother of God, this leads to the rejection of theotokos (Mother of God) replacing it with (Giving Birth to Christ) khristotokos. The Council of Ephesus rejected Nestorianism in 431 A.D.

To claim that Mary only carried the human nature of Christ is the same error. Mary didn't give birth to the nature of a child; she gave birth to the person of Christ.

Concluding, we see that by holding Christ as God, then Mary is the Mother of God. Hence, St. Elizabeth being in the presence of God, exclaimed to Mary, “…the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

JoeT

All:

Holding the view that Mary was NOT the mother of God is akin to the error Nestroianism. Nestorius (circa 425 A.D.) held the unorthodox view that the essence(s) of Christ were separated into two natures, the man Jesus and the God that was Christ. In failing to recognize that Mary is the Mother of God, this leads to the rejection of theotokos (Mother of God) replacing it with (Giving Birth to Christ) khristotokos. The Council of Ephesus rejected Nestorianism in 431 A.D.

No it is not. No one is saying that Jesus is separated into two natures, but rather accepting the reality that Jesus is God and always was God who took upon Himself human flesh. He is therefore fully God and fully human, but was not always human. This doctrine is summarized in scripture:

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

On the other hand, to claim that Mary is the mother of God expresses, in essence, 3 heresies:

1) Denial of the Trinity

If one argues that Mary is mother of God by giving birth to Jesus because Jesus is God, then the argument actually also by default says that God is Jesus. The second is a heresy because it omits the truth that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2) Denial of the Eternal pre-existence of God

The claim that Mary is mother of God presumes that she pre-existed God. If she is in fact the vessel through whom jesus entered the world in the flesh, it expresses the Biblical truth that the eternal son of God also became man when born of Mary.

3) Exaltation of Mary to Godhood

If Mary was the mother of God, she also had to be God.

If you say that she gave birth to Christ, are you saying that Jesus was not Christ prior to His birth?

It is amazing how the same word can merely mean a person in Authority, so that is all Jesus is to you all, a person in authority?

And is it not the same wordas used in Luke 1:25, when he was speaking of God, or perhaps some other man of authority did all the works in Luke 1.

How silly one will not take the obvious use of the bible because the doctrine of your denomination refused to accept the bibical teachings of the Catholic Church.

On the other hand, to claim that Mary is the mother of God expresses, in essence, 3 heresies:

1) Denial of the Trinity

If one argues that Mary is mother of God by giving birth to Jesus because Jesus is God, then the argument actually also by default says that God is Jesus. The second is a heresy because it omits the truth that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2) Denial of the Eternal pre-existence of God

The claim that Mary is mother of God presumes that she pre-existed God. If she is in fact the vessel through whom jesus entered the world in the flesh, it expresses the Biblical truth that the eternal son of God also became man when born of Mary.

3) Exaltation of Mary to Godhood

If Mary was the mother of God, she also had to be God.

1. About the most silly teaching, because Mary gave Birth to Jesus, that denies the entire trinity??
No, it means to many of the newer man created doctrines wishes to put limits on Gods power by defining a limit on what God can do in the creation of the Trinity, and of course forget that it is the Same Catholic church that helped in the defining of the Trinity. So in no way would they deny the trinity. What it does mean is that if the Trinity does exisit ( and it does) then that baby was Jesus , was God and was the Holy Spirit, and the baby had to be born,? So what else is Mary but the mother to all.

2. And again, there was not always a baby in her womb, it was created and Mary gave birth, he was not hatched, he was not beamed down, So Mary gave birth to Jesus, and thus ends that silly idea

3. Mary is honored and the bibie itself says she is blessed above all women, No one calls her a God,

Trying to show it as heresies merely goes to show the false nature of your claims to be any catholic expert at all, and in fact proves somewhat a false advertising since it is obvoius you know nothing of the true meaning and faith.

To believe in anything other than Theotokos is to believe that Jesus Christ was made and not begotten:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father, that is, of the substance of the Father; God of God, Light of Light, Very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made, both those in heaven and those in the earth. Who for us men and for our salvation, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man. He suffered, and rose again the third day. He ascended into the heavens, from thence he shall come to judge both the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost: But those that say, There was a time when he was not, and, before he was begotten he was not, and that he was made of that which previously was not, or that he was of some other substance or essence; and that the Son of God was capable of change or alteration; those the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes. Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)

And

If anyone says that the Emmanuel is true God, and not rather God with us, that is, that he has united himself to a like nature with ours, which he assumed from the Virgin Mary, and dwelt in it; and if anyone calls Mary the mother of God the Word, and not rather mother of him who is Emmanuel; and if he maintains that God the Word has changed himself into the flesh, which he only assumed in order to make his Godhead visible, and to be found in form as a man, let him be anathema. . Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)

JoeT

It is amazing how the same word can merely mean a person in Authority, so that is all Jesus is to you all, a person in authority?

You missed what I said. I was quite clear about the nature of Jesus. Scripture is also quite clear. I also do not think that scripture errs in the description that is given of Mary's role.

Let me try an analogy for you. If you ran a packaging company and you were sent widgets to package, would it be correct to call you the manufacturer of the widgets because you put the widgets in the final packaging? Of course not, and a similar situation is true here. Jesus did not change - He was, and is and always has been, and always will be God. Mary was the vessel through whom He entered the world in the flesh.

Scripture is right to call her "mother of my lord" rather than "mother of God".


How silly one will not take the obvious use of the bible because the doctrine of your denomination refused to accept the bibical teachings of the Catholic Church.

I have no denomination. I stand by what God's word says and that is why I reject the doctrine - it has nothing to do with what denomination put forward the doctrine. I would reject the doctrine on the basis of what scripture says regarding of whether your denomination says it, or Baptists, or Lutheran or any other denomination. The authority of God's word overrides any denominational authority. That is because God is Lord.

1. About the most silly teaching, because Mary gave Birth to Jesus, that denies the entire trinity??

Is God limited to being just Jesus? That is a form of modalism.


2. And again, there was not always a baby in her womb, it was created and Mary gave birth, he was not hatched, he was not beamed down, So Mary gave birth to Jesus, and thus ends that silly idea

That is right - the baby (flesh) that Mary gave birth to was created. God was not. Mary therefore cannot be the mother of God.


3. Mary is honored and the bibie itself says she is blessed above all women, No one calls her a God,

Mary was indeed honoured to be chosen by God to be the vessel through whom Jesus entered the world. And whether anyone calls her God, if she is the mother of God, that effectively makes her God. One of the doctors of the RCC, Alphonse Liguori gives Mary the attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. He says that she must be worshiped and that even God bends His knee to Her. Sounds pretty much like he is making her God.

Jesus was careful to keep the distinction between Himself and the Father clear. While on Earth, he BECAME man, the firstborn among MANY Brethren.

Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(KJV)

Jesus did no works or teaching other than by the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
(KJV)

If He needed the anointing of the Spirit of the Lord, then He was not functioning as God, therefore Mary is not the mother of God, but of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus was careful to keep the distinction between Himself and the Father clear. While on Earth, he BECAME man, the firstborn among MANY Bretheren.

In Matthew 13:55 we see the clansmen of Christ, called brothers and sisters as was the custom, who were children of Mary of Cleophas, sister of the Ever Virgin Mary: refer to Matt 27:56, and John 19:25. With proper Hermeneutics we see in the Old Testament the word “brother” to express a broad kinship or clanship as well as the word indicating siblings. Following are selected thought from St. Jerome who argued vehemently that to hold that Christ had siblings was an error:

17. I say spiritual because all of us Christians are called brethren, as in the verse, Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. … Shall we say they are brethren by race? … Again, if all men, as such, were His brethren, it would have been foolish to deliver a special message, Behold, your brethren seek you, for all men alike were entitled to the name … Just as Lot was called Abraham's brother, and Jacob Laban's, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 She is indeed my sister, on the father's side, not on the mother's, that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.

If we were to argue for the literal interpretation of brother so as to insist on Jesus having siblings in this instance, then wouldn’t that redefine John 19:26-27? Jesus says to John, “Behold thy Mother.” Being redefined in our errant insistence on a literal interpretation would add John to James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude as siblings of Christ; which of course is nonsense.

Given the verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment Christ was conceived God was infused; at that moment Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy. Being literally full of grace, would we, could we, expect less.

I’ll go a step further, not only was Mary Ever Virgin, so was Joseph.

… Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication… the conclusion is that [Joseph] who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.

Mary is Ever Virgin.


JoeT

Joe,

You are posting on the wrong thread.

Tom

Joe,

You are posting on the wrong thread.

Tom

I agree my post was a bit off topic. But, I was responding to Galveston1 comments.

JoeT

I agree my post was a bit off topic. But, I was responding to Galveston1 comments.


I don't see the relationship.

They can mean many things. Some do not believe that He is God and are simply referring to His authority which they claim is simply delegated by God. Others speak of His authority as God. But in both cases, it is in reference to His authority, not His nature. Unless we had the specific indication in scripture that he is God, if all scripture said was that Jesus is a "lord", we would be hard pressed to claim, as a doctrine that He is God. The reason that we know for a fact that Jesus is God is because, from Genesis to Revelation, we are told that Jesus is God.

Why else would she speak of the child in Mary's womb as a person in authority?

Are you saying that Elizabeth is denying that Jesus is God?

Joe,

You are posting on the wrong thread.

Tom

Galveston1 brought it up. He simply followed that line of thought.

Galveston1 brought it up. He simply followed that line of thought.

I think Joe mis-understood.

Why else would she speak of the child in Mary's womb as a person in authority?

Are you saying that Elizabeth is denying that Jesus is God?

Sigh! We have been through this loop so many times. You keep asking this question and it keeps getting answered. So I cannot believe that you are serious in asking it.

Do you understand the difference between Mary and Jesus?

Hopefully yes.

Elizabeth was speaking about Mary's role, not Jesus' nature.

Jesus nature is God. He always was God and always will be God.

Jesus was not always man, though He will be fully God and fully man into eternity.

God was not created.

As Fr_Chuck put it so nicely, the baby was creatyed - the flesh did not pre-exist Mary, but God did.

Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh - she did not give birth to divinity / God / trinity.

Elizabeth acknowledged Jesus' authority as Lord.

Jesus as fully man and fully God has that authority as Lord.

Mary gave birth therefore to the Lord as she she gave birth to Jesus (this was His initial entry into the world as a man.

I hope that in point form it is easy enough to understand so that we don't have to go through this loop again.

Sigh! We have been through this loop so many times. You keep asking this question and it keeps getting answered. So I cannot believe that you are serious in asking it.

You keep avoiding the questions. Just answer them directly.


Do you understand the difference between Mary and Jesus?

Hopefully yes.

Elizabeth was speaking about Mary's role, not Jesus' nature.

EXACTLY!! Mary's role is mother of God.


Jesus nature is God. He always was God and always will be God.

AMEN!!


Jesus was not always man, though He will be fully God and fully man into eternity.

God was not created.

Correct.


As Fr_Chuck put it so nicely, the baby was creatyed - the flesh did not pre-exist Mary, but God did.

Bravo Fr Chuck!!


Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh - she did not give birth to divinity / God / trinity.

Oooooh too bad. You were so close. Mary did give birth to God. Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to Jesus. Therefore, Mary gave birth to God.

Mary did not create God in eternity. Eternal God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, entered her womb and willed to be born of her in the flesh.

Therefore, Mary gave birth to God in the flesh.

It makes as much sense to say that Mary gave birth to Jesus the man but not to Jesus who is God, as it would to say that an ordinary woman gave birth to her sons flesh but not to his spirit. A person is one being. And Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Holy Trinity IN THE FLESH.


Elizabeth acknowledged Jesus' authority as Lord.

Are you saying, that inspired by the Holy Spirit, she meant "how does the mother of my human authority come to me?" Then why did the child, John the Baptist, jump in her womb?


Jesus as fully man and fully God has that authority as Lord.

Because He is God. If Jesus were simply a man, I wouldn't be a Christian and I would not call Him Lord. Simple as that.

Would you?


Mary gave birth therefore to the Lord as she she gave birth to Jesus (this was His initial entry into the world as a man.

Are you saying that Jesus was not God when He was born?

When did He lose His Divinity, when He was conceived in Her womb?


I hope that in point form it is easy enough to understand so that we don't have to go through this loop again.

The logic is very simple.

Jesus is God.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

And St. Elizabeth recognized that Mary is the Mother of God and therefore called her the Mother of my Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You keep avoiding the questions. Just answer them directly.

I can post them, but unless you read'em...


Mary did give birth to God.

See this is where we keep getting caught. Mary did not pre-exist God nor give birth to the trinity.

Now if you believe this, just show us the verse which says that she did, and we can end this discussion. But we get stuck on this point because you hold to your denomination's teachings and I hold to what scripture says. Until you can demonstrate that scripture calls Mary the mother of God, we will be at that impasse because I do not accept the teachings of your denomination as doctrine unless they are in concert with scripture.

You will note that I skipped many of your questions because I see little need to keep answering them over and over.


The logic is very simple.

Jesus is God.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

Using your same logic, which ignores the following facts:

1) God is a trinity
2) Jesus is the only person 9even of the trinity) who is fully God and fully man.
3) God was eternally pre-existent.

Now using your approach, and assuming that your claims are accurate for the moment, here are some other logic syllogisms that we could come us with.

Jesus is the Son of God
Mary is mother of God
Therefore Mary is the grandmother of Jesus.

Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God
Mary is therefore the wife of God the Father.
Mary is the wife of Joseph
Mary is a polygamist.
Mary is also married to her son.

I could go on and on. The fallacy in the approach that you are taking should be clear and obvious.

I can post them, but unless you read'em...

Post what?


See this is where we keep getting caught. Mary did not pre-exist God nor give birth to the trinity.

Did I say that she did? I thought I clearly explained:

Mary did not create God in eternity. Eternal God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, entered her womb and willed to be born of her in the flesh.

Therefore, Mary gave birth to God in the flesh.

It makes as much sense to say that Mary gave birth to Jesus the man but not to Jesus who is God, as it would to say that an ordinary woman gave birth to her sons flesh but not to his spirit. A person is one being. And Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Holy Trinity IN THE FLESH.


Now if you believe this, just show us the verse which says that she did, and we can end this discussion.

Every verse that says that she is the mother of Jesus means that she is the Mother of God.


But we get stuck on this point because you hold to your denomination's teachings and I hold to what scripture says. Until you can demonstrate that scripture calls Mary the mother of God, we will be at that impasse because I do not accept the teachings of your denomination as doctrine unless they are in concert with scripture.

When Elizabeth says that Mary is the mother of my Lord, that means that Mary is the Mother of God.


You will note that I skipped many of your questions because I see little need to keep answering them over and over.

You answered them before?


Using your same logic, which ignores the following facts:

1) God is a trinity
2) Jesus is the only person 9even of the trinity) who is fully God and fully man.
3) God was eternally pre-existent.

No. You skipped over those portions of my message.


now using your approach, and assuming that your claims are accurate for the moment, here are some other logic syllogisms that we could come us with.

Jesus is the Son of God
Mary is mother of God
Therefore Mary is the grandmother of Jesus.

That syllogism would only work if Mary were the eternal mother of eternal God. But that isn't the Catholic Teaching. Mary is the mother of Jesus therefore she is the mother of God.



Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God
Mary is therefore the wife of God the Father.
Mary is the wife of Joseph
Mary is a polygamist.
Mary is also married to her son.

You are interpreting the Biblical truth that Mary is the mother of God almost as a Muslim interprets the Biblical truth that Jesus is the son of God. Muslims claim that if Jesus is the son of God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then God had sex with Mary.

But that isn't true. Mary is the Mother of God because you can't say that Jesus was ever not God. And Mary is Jesus' mother. Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

As Luther would put it:
"God did not derive his Divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's Mother . . . She is the true Mother of God and Bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc."

"For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . .just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone. (On the Councils and the Church, 1539).
Deployment journey: The veneration of Mary isn't as offensive to Protestant reformers as I was led to believe (http://quinault-deploymentjourney.blogspot.com/2008/08/veneration-of-mary-isnt-as-offensive-to.html)


I could go on and on. The fallacy in the approach that you are taking should be clear and obvious.

There is no fallacy in my approach. Your approach seems much like the Muslim approach.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Post what?

Sigh! Please read the previous posts and keep up with the thread. We were talking about the answers that I keep posting.


Did I say that she did? I thought I clearly explained:

Then she cannot be mother of God.


Every verse that says that she is the mother of Jesus means that she is the Mother of God.

That is your claim. But we are still waiting for your proof from scripture that she pre-existed God and gave birth to the trinity.


When Elizabeth says that Mary is the mother of my Lord, that means that Mary is the Mother of God.

Again, your claim. Facts are not created because you declare them to be so.


You answered them before?

See what I mean - I can answer them (as I have), but unless you read 'em...


That syllogism would only work if Mary were the eternal mother of eternal God.

That was my point - these syllogisms of yours may be cute, but they omit some key details that invalidate them logically.


You are interpreting the Biblical truth that Mary is the mother of God almost as a Muslim interprets the Biblical truth that Jesus is the son of God. Muslims claim that if Jesus is the son of God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then God had sex with Mary.


Again, please stick with defending your position rather than trying to mis-represent and attack my faith.

A = Gabriel said to Mary, Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus (C.f. Luke 1). So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave brth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. We can confidently say Mary is a Mother. Do we believe it; sure we do!


B = Gabriel continued saying that He, “born of thee shall be called the Son of God … Son of the Most High…And the child grew and was strengthened in spirit (C.f. Luke 1). We can confidently say, Mary gave birth to God; the Son of God, Son of the Most High, the second person in the Triune. Do we believe it; sure we do!


So, we can examine the axiomatic property of closure and say that the sum of A+B=C


Mary is a Mother + Mary births God = C ===>>> Holy Mary is Mother of God !


Do we believe it, sure we do! It’s in the Bible. Now that we’ve finished with the hard math, let’s turn to something a little easier.


Biblical meaning of Lord = God.


Thus, as the Doctors and Fathers of our faith teach from scripture; when Elizabeth asked why, “the mother of my Lord should come to me?” We can assertively say that Elizabeth was addressing, “the Mother of God.” Why? Because it’s in the Bible.

[Corollary: Now get this; with A, B and given that the throne of David will be given to Him by God! Consider, Throne ->authority -> keys –> get it? We’ll do this one some other time; just thought I’d point it out.]

All of which might help explain why we call the Blessed Virgin Mary,

Holy Mary
Holy Mother of God
Most honored of virgins
Mother of Christ
Mother of the Church
Mother of divine grace
Mother most pure
Mother of Chaste love
Sinless Mother
Virgin most wise
Virgin rightly praised
Cause of our joy

And why we say:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


I hope the logic wasn’t too much.


JoeT

A = Gabriel said to Mary, Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus (C.f. Luke 1). So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave brth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. We can confidently say Mary is a Mother. Do we believe it; sure we do!

You said:

"So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave birth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. "

Your (faulty) logic is:

- Mary is a mother
- Mary births God
- Mary is mother of God.

But scripture says more that that. It says that mary conceived Jesus!

Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV

So now using your (faulty) logic, we now have:

- Mary is a mother
- Mary conceives God
- Mary is mother of God.

So you are saying that Mary conceived God?

I don't buy it. It is a heresy because God pre-existed Mary, and Jesus was God from eternity (Micah 5:2). But if you are going to use that faulty syllogism, this is where it leads.

Jesus did not change (Heb 13:8), but Mary conceived a baby, the flesh that in which Jesus manifested Himself (1 Tim3:16). Prior to this, though He was fully God into eternity past, He was not a man. When Mary conceived through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, He was manifested in the flesh and became fully man.

Mary conceived the flesh - she did not conceived God. God already existed.


Thus, as the Doctors and Fathers of our faith...

Sorry, but I do not base my doctrine on the tradition of your denomination, but rather I base my doctrine on scripture.

Luke 11:27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
KJV

BTW, what was Mary Queen of, according to you?

Fr Chuck,
I agree with you 100% on that.
It is silly that people will try to twist what the bible says just because they disagree with Catholic teaching.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

So you are saying that Mary conceived God?
No, that's not what I said. What I said was, “Holy Mary is Mother of God.” (It contained 21 letters and was divided into six words.)

Just to make it painfully clear, I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

I don't buy it.
It's not for sale.


Jesus did not change (Heb 13:8), but Mary conceived a baby, the flesh that in which Jesus manifested Himself (1 Tim3:16). Prior to this, though He was fully God into eternity past, He was not a man. When Mary conceived through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, He was manifested in the flesh and became fully man.

Mary conceived the flesh - she did not conceive God. God already existed.
So you hold that Mary gave birth to a human child we call Jesus who was later made (or who made himself) into a god? (That's what you say in the statement above)

Salve, Regina!

JoeT

Tj3,
For some reason your posts seem to say that you do not believe that "with God all things are possible."
You are saying that God could not be born of a woman named Mary, ye the bible clearly says that Mary gave birth ti Jesus Christ who was/is God the Son.
I find your post denying that silly and amazing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Yes, to deny that Jesus was born of a virgin and her name was Mary, is to deny part of the bible. To deny that Jesus is Lord and Saviour is to deny part of the bible.

And if we do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then there would be no real salvation coming from his death.

And if he is not True God, then there is no real Trinity.

A person can not really have it both ways, if Mary gave birth to Jesus and the bible tells us this is true, she was and is his mother.

Sadly arcura this sounds like almost cut and paste out of some of those "chick publications" that spew hate of many christian groups. Sadly too many groups have less teachings of their own and more teachings against other groups.

No, that's not what I said. What I said was, “Holy Mary is Mother of God.” (It contained 21 letters and was divided into six words.)

That is what YOU said. Scripture says that nowhere.


Just to make it painfully clear, I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

Good! Then I hope that you will understand that God was not conceived by Mary.


So you hold that Mary gave birth to a human child we call Jesus who was later made (or who made himself) into a god? (That's what you say in the statement above)

No I said nothing of the sort - reread.

Byut I note that you avoid the question that I asked. Let me ask it again:

You said:

"So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave birth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. "

Your (faulty) logic is:

- Mary is a mother
- Mary births God
- Mary is mother of God.

But scripture says more that that. It says that mary conceived Jesus!

Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV

So now using your (faulty) logic, we now have:

- Mary is a mother
- Mary conceives God
- Mary is mother of God.

So you are saying that Mary conceived God?

It is either that, or using your logic, you would be denying that Jesus was God since scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus.

Answer the question.

Tj3,
For some reason your posts seem to say that you do not believe that "with God all things are possible."

Fred,

Just because all things all possible with God, does not mean that God must do all things. That is a logic fallacy.


You are saying that God could not be born of a woman named Mary, ye the bible clearly says that Mary gave birth ti Jesus Christ who was/is God the Son.

Scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus. Did Mary conceive God? Using your "logic", it is either that, or using your logic, you would be denying that Jesus was God since scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus.

Joe apparently did not want to answer that question - can you?

Mary, according to scripture was the vessel through whom an eternally pre-existent God entered the world manifest in the flesh. She did not conceive God and thus was not the mother of God.

Catholic teaching (and some others) miss the fact of Jesus' HUMANITY. Jesus was NOT God in disguise, teaching and working as the Almighty, but rather as perfect man anointed by the Holy Ghost. The Son left Heaven to become ONE OF US, otherwise He could not have been the "kinsman redeemer". If He were not man, then His sacrifice on the cross would have been invalid. The sacrificial lamb had to be ONE OF THE FLOCK. He had to be human. If that were not so, then explain this part of His prayer to His Father:
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)

This clearly shows that Jesus did NOT have that glory that He once had, and needed to have restored to Him. You fail to see the difference between The Son in Heaven, and The Son on Earth.

Catholic teaching (and some others) miss the fact of Jesus' HUMANITY. Jesus was NOT God in disguise, teaching and working as the Almighty, but rather as perfect man anointed by the Holy Ghost. The Son left Heaven to become ONE OF US, otherwise He could not have been the "kinsman redeemer". If He were not man, then His sacrifice on the cross would have been invalid. The sacrifical lamb had to be ONE OF THE FLOCK. He had to be human. If that were not so, then explain this part of His prayer to His Father:
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)

This clearly shows that Jesus did NOT have that glory that He once had, and needed to have restored to Him. You fail to see the difference between The Son in Heaven, and The Son on Earth.

Jesus is not divided. Jesus is man and God. There is not one Jesus who is man and another who is God.

Fred,

Just because all things all possible with God, does not mean that God must do all things. That is a logic fallacy.



Scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus. Did Mary conceive God? Using your "logic", it is either that, or using your logic, you would be denying that Jesus was God since scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus.

Joe apparently did not want to answer that question - can you?

Sure. Mary conceived God the Son in her womb. But Mary did not conceive Eternal God in her womb. That would be impossible by definition.

The Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb.

Here's the question for you, did God take flesh in her womb?


Mary, according to scripture was the vessel through whom an eternally pre-existent God entered the world manifest in the flesh. She did not conceive God and thus was not the mother of God.

She did not create God. God is uncreated and eternal. But she did conceive God in her womb. Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Joe apparently did not want to answer that question - can you?


Yes I can answer the question. But, just to be clear ask it again.

Salve, Regina!

JoeT

Tj3,
Perhaps you should star reading the bible fir what is says. It does tell us clearly that Mary us the mother of Jesus Christ the God/man not what you say.
For some reason you can not understand what the bible clearly says about that.
By denying that Mary is the Mother of God The Son you are denying that Jesus is divine.
It is a simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria,
When you said of Mary, "She did not create God. God is uncreated and eternal. But she did conceive God in her womb. Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb."
You summed it up well and correctly.
According to the bible, that is exactly what took place.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV

Try to focus; this verse says that the child born (birthed) and was named by the angel. How does this verse contradict what Catholics believe?

Salve, Regina!

JoeT

This whole exchange is pointless. Catholics do not regard scripture as the FINAL authority, while the rest of Christendom does. One side or the other has to back off before there can be any meeting of the minds. That is highly inlikely.

Jesus is not divided. Jesus is man and God. There is not one Jesus who is man and another who is God.

That is right. And just as true is the fact that Jesus was not fully man before being conceived in the flesh.


Sure. Mary conceived God the Son in her womb. But Mary did not conceive Eternal God in her womb.

Did she? Then what you are saying is in effect that Jesus was not eternally pre-existent.


Tj3,
Perhaps you should star reading the bible fir what is says. It does tell us clearly that Mary us the mother of Jesus Christ the God/man not what you say.

Fred,

I note that you could not answer the question - did Mary conceive God - yes or no?

BTW, I believe what the Bible says, not your unvalidated private interpretation.


Try to focus; this verse says that the child born (birthed) and was named by the angel. How does this verse contradict what Catholics believe?



Heh hah - you brought up the fact that the word conceived was associated in the Bible with Jesus, and I quoted the verse. But now I note that you avoid the word conceived, and change it to "birthed".

I will take that to mean that you do not want to answer the question as to whether Mary conceived God.

I understand why you don't - really, I do!


This whole exchange is pointless. Catholics do not regard scripture as the FINAL authority, while the rest of Christendom does. One side or the other has to back off before there can be any meeting of the minds. That is highly inlikely.

There will never be a meeting of the minds so long as one side insists that the other side must first accept the private interpretation of the men who lead their denomination.

heh hah - you brought up the fact that the word conceived was associated in the Bible with Jesus, and I quoted the verse. But now I note that you avoid the word conceived, and change it to "birthed".

I will take that to mean that you do not want to answer the question as to whether Mary conceived God.

I understand why you don't - really, I do!


I did ansewer your question (some time ago) as follows: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. " You still haven't shown how "conceived" in this verse contradicts Catholic belief. Try to do it without chopping Christ up into pieces.

Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?

Salve, Regina!

JoeT

This whole exchange is pointless. Catholics do not regard scripture as the FINAL authority, while the rest of Christendom does. One side or the other has to back off before there can be any meeting of the minds. That is highly inlikely.

I'm sure it must seem that way. But, the point is exactly where that “FINAL authority” rests. What we do know is that that authority can't lie in a book, especially in a book that makes no claim to be “the final” or “the ultimate” authority. The RCC holds that all Scripture should be in harmony with the Tradition of the Apostles' teachings and the Magisterium of the Church. We see that among other things, Christ prays for us to have one faith, a holy faith, a catholic faith, as taught by the Apostles. John 17: 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. St. Augustine says it best:

But those reasons which I have here given, I have either gathered from the authority of the church, according to the tradition of our forefathers, or from the testimony of the divine Scriptures, or from the nature itself of numbers and of similitudes. FIFTEEN BOOKS OF AURELIUS AUGUSTINUS BISHOP OF HIPPO, ON THE TRINITY

Furthermore, as far as scripture themselves


But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. St. Augustin, AGAINST THE EPISTLE OF MANICHAEUS CALLED FUNDAMENTAL.(1)[CONTRA EPISTOLAM MANICHAEI QUAM VACANT FUNDAMENTI.] A.D. 397. Chp 5

JoeT

I did ansewer your question (some time ago) as follows: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. " You still haven't shown how "conceived" in this verse contradicts Catholic belief. Try to do it without chopping Christ up into pieces.

You avoided the question entirely. Was God conceived in Mary?

BTW, I was quite clear about God being fully man and fully God. I am trying to get you to acknowledge His human nature.



Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?

Sure, if you can answer it. If so, then do so.

I’m sure it must seem that way. But, the point is exactly where that “FINAL authority” rests. What we do know is that that authority can’t lie in a book, especially in a book that makes no claim to be “the final” or “the ultimate” authority.

Since that "book" as you call it, is the written word of God, I take that word with the authority of God. There is no denomination, or church, or human who carries authority equal to that of God's. There is no authority of any denomination, or church, or human which I would require before I would believe God's word or accept God's authority.

You avoided the question entirely. Was God conceived in Mary?

BTW, I was quite clear about God being fully man and fully God. I am trying to get you to acknowledge His human nature.

God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ was man and God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary.

Given the verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN, we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.

Thus we hold Mary was Ever Virgin and Mother of Mercy


JoeT

Since that "book" as you call it, is the written word of God, I take that word with the authority of God. There is no denomination, or church, or human who carries authority equal to that of God's. there is no authority of any denomination, or church, or human which I would require before i would believe God's word or accept God's authority.

If you believed this "book", you would believe every verse. And this "book" tells you that the Church is your authority:

Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

That we should obey men of the Church:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

That the Church will even teach the powers in the heavenly places:

Ephesians 3 10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

So in disregarding the Church, you disregard the Scriptures which tell you not to disregard the Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ was man and God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary.

I see that you are still avoiding the question.

Was God conceived in Mary?



We must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary's Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary's womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.

Can we stick with dealing with one erroneous doctrine at a time?

If you believed this "book", you would believe every verse. And this "book" tells you that the Church is your authority.

That is a different thread, De maria, and we have already discussed that to death. You believe that "The Church" is a denomination started in 325AD, and I go by what scripture says about The Church.

Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?

Sure, if you can answer it. If so, then do so.

Well I thought you would never ask.

The illustrious Mother of Christ is held to be Queen of the Universe:

But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren", (Acts 1: 14) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, (Cf. Rom. 8: 10-11) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. 1 Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confirmed to her Son, the Lord of lords (Cf Apoc. 19: 16) and the conqueror of sin and death.( Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8: 15-16 and 26.) ." Lumen Gentium, 59

We hold that;

Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.( Cf. Mk. 4: 26-29) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me". (Lk. 1: 48) Lumen Gentium, 59


And which is why we say:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.



JoeT

Originally Posted by JoeT777
God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ was man and God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary.


I see that you are still avoiding the question.
Was God conceived in Mary?
Words mean things, read what was written.


we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.

Can we stick with dealing with one erroneous doctrine at a time?

There is no error here.

JoeT

Well I thought you would never ask.

The illustrious Mother of Christ, is held to be Queen of the Universe


He he he.

I notice that all you could do was copy and paste someone's private interpretation.

Just like your claim about mother of God, this claim is also not validated by scripture.

Anyway, that was a good interlude - now how about answering my question - did Mary conceive God?

Words mean things, read what was written.

They do and I did.

Now please answer my question.

Was God conceived in Mary? Yes or No, please, no more copy and paste answers.

he he he.

I notice that all you could do was copy and paste someone's private interpretation.

Just like your claim about mother of God, this claim is also not validated by scripture.

Anyway, that was a good interlude - now how about answering my question - did Mary conceive God?


Mockery is your best argument?


JoeT

Mockery is your best argument?


Joe,

No argument needs to be given for that one because there is no validation - just some private interpretation that you copied and pasted.

Should you find a reference in scripture to the Queen of the Universe, please let me know, and I'd be delighted to discuss further.

Well I thought you would never ask.

The illustrious Mother of Christ is held to be Queen of the Universe:

But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren", (Acts 1: 14) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, (Cf. Rom. 8: 10-11) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confirmed to her Son, the Lord of lords (Cf Apoc. 19: 16) and the conqueror of sin and death.( Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8: 15-16 and 26.) ." Lumen Gentium, 59

We hold that;

Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.( Cf. Mk. 4: 26-29) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me". (Lk. 1: 48) Lumen Gentium, 59


And which is why we say:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.



JoeT


Joe,

No argument needs to be given for that one because there is no validation - just some private interpretation that you copied and pasted.

Should you find a reference in scripture to the Queen of the Universe, please let me know, and I'd be delighted to discuss further.


Validation was given with Scriptural references.

Validation was given with Scriptural references.

Not a single one validates Mary or indeed anyone else as "queen of the universe", nor even suggests that any such position exists. It is all someone's private opinion. Even within the copied and pasted paragraph, there are addition claims which are unvalidated upon which this unvalidated conclusion is based.

Read what you copied and pasted.

But again, this seems to be a way of driving the discussion off topic and avoiding the question which you have circled around but avoided:

Was God conceived in Mary?

It's commonsense that mary was a human, and when she birthed another
Human, her nature didn't change. She didn't become divine... there's
No scripture that shows mary as some type of angel or goddess, just
Another human being. I think her and jesus' humanity is what trips up
Peoples' understanding of how jesus could possibly be anything other
Than a normal human being. The question of the trinity also arises,
Because jesus was born without a human father. Mary had a human father and mother. But jesus was different. So what made him different? I believe
That god worked his will through jesus so intimately, that jesus could
Draw on this miraculous power, at will. I believe jesus experienced this
Power from both within and without. My reasoning is because jesus was
Directed by god from within. And the forces without were dealing with
Food and weather, and water. This internal walk was perfected in jesus,
And mary could only be like us, waiting for what we can only hope, like paul says, in the future, when we'll see what god meant for us to be.
So mary was like us, and died like we will. I'm sure mary was a very
Good christian, but that's as far as her godliness went.

I’m sure it must seem that way. But, the point is exactly where that “FINAL authority” rests. What we do know is that that authority can’t lie in a book, especially in a book that makes no claim to be “the final” or “the ultimate” authority.
You have that right, except we don't need the catholic church, a pastor,
Or any other to tell us how to interpret scripture. And since you stated
It can't lie in a book, then it must come from god himself.

At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.
Thus we hold Mary was Ever Virgin and Mother of Mercy
JoeT

OK, let me try this tack: how would mary's womb have been any
Purer than other women's wombs? Lol, it's not what goes into
A man that defiles him, it's what comes out. In other words,
Mary was still the same spiritual person she was even after
She conceived. She didn't all of a sudden 'level up' in her
Walk with god.

it's commonsense that mary was a human, and when she birthed another
human, her nature didn't change. she didn't become divine... there's
no scripture that shows mary as some type of angel or goddess, just
another human being.
That Mary became divine was never said or implied. Nor is Mary an angel or goddess. But she is a Saint.


i think her and jesus' humanity is what trips up
peoples' understanding of how jesus could possibly be anything other
than a normal human being. the question of the trinity also arises,
because jesus was born without a human father. mary had a human father and mother. but jesus was different. so what made him different? i believe
that god worked his will through jesus so intimately, that jesus could
draw on this miraculous power, at will. i believe jesus experienced this
power from both within and without.

I don’t think “God worked through Jesus” because Christ was fully man and fully God. Wavering from His humanity to His Divinity or favoring His divinity or his humanity leads us into conflict with the Triune.


my reasoning is because jesus was
directed by god from within. and the forces without were dealing with
food and weather, and water. this internal walk was perfected in jesus,
and mary could only be like us, wating for what we can only hope, like paul says, in the future, when we'll see what god meant for us to be.

But, this was the point. God suffered humanity out of his goodness so we might live: He was buried to raise us up. For when our Lord suffered, His humanity suffered, that which He had like man; and He dissolves the sufferings of him who is His like, and by dying He has destroyed death…He is the resurrection and the salvation of all; He is the Guide of the erring, the Shepherd of men who have been set free, the life of the dead, the charioteer of the cherubim, the standard-bearer of the angels, and the King of kings, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen Alexander of Alexandria, Epistles on Arianism

Do you not agree?


so mary was like us, and died like we will. i'm sure mary was a very
good christian, but that's as far as her godliness went.

No, Mary wasn’t entirely like us. Catholics hold that she was immaculate; thereby supernaturally protected from original sin.

JoeT

How do you get this:


Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, ...on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19)

Out of this:

1Cr 6:19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? And ye are not your own;
1Cr 6:20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

?

I don’t think “God worked through Jesus” because Christ was fully man and fully God. Wavering from His humanity to His Divinity or favoring His divinity or his humanity leads us into conflict with the Triune.

No, it actually meshes well with the 'triune'. See, the power that jesus
Used upon the earth, was not used by other people, such as he used it.
He kept referring to the father, and he used the power of god (if you
Believe his miracles), so god was definitely living in him, and working
His power through jesus. You have to remember, it was flesh god was
Doing his will through. The holy spirit of god was the power of god
Working through the flesh. So you can see that you cannot take away
Jesus' flesh, spirit(he was alive), and god's spirit(working miracles).
This 'triune' interpretation works for me.



But, this was the point. God suffered humanity out of his goodness so we might live: He was buried to raise us up. For when our Lord suffered, His humanity suffered, that which He had like man; and He dissolves the sufferings of him who is His like, and by dying He has destroyed death…He is the resurrection and the salvation of all; He is the Guide of the erring, the Shepherd of men who have been set free, the life of the dead, the charioteer of the cherubim, the standard-bearer of the angels, and the King of kings, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen Alexander of Alexandria, Epistles on Arianism
Do you not agree?

Yes, but I don't see your point?



No, Mary wasn’t entirely like us. Catholics hold that she was immaculate; thereby supernaturally protected from original sin.
JoeT

She couldn't be protected from sin. Jesus had not died yet.

No, Mary wasn’t entirely like us. Catholics hold that she was immaculate; thereby supernaturally protected from original sin.


Your denomination may hold to that, and you have the perfect right to believe as you wish - but it is not found in scripture.

Nor have you said if you believe that God was conceived in Mary.

Tj3,
Yes, the bible says that THE CHURCH is your authority, but I know from your many posts that you do not believe much of what the bibles says, such as that Mary is the mother of God the Son and that the consecrated bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Jesus Christs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

you have that right, except we don't need the catholic church, a pastor,
or any other to tell us how to interpret scripture. and since you stated
it can't lie in a book, then it must come from god himself.

Men of good conscience do, and sometimes often, disagree on the meaning of Scripture. Therefore, if men of faith, good morals, and ethics can disagree while reading essentially from the same Scripture. Thus, receiving their understanding direct from the book through God himself (presumably the Holy Spirit) then why do you and I disagree? Why isn't the Spirit of God teaching each of us the same thing? Why then do we have 30,000 different Christian Churches when Christ prayed “And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me: that they may be one, as we also are… That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one. 23 I in them, and thou in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.” (John 17)

Are we all theologians, specialists in Greek, Latin and other dead languages? If not, then how are we to discern which is the Truth and which is not? Therefore, rightly, The teaching authority of the Church, promised to you and me by Christ, fills this role as commissioned by Christ.

JoeT

Tj3,
Yes, the bible says that THE CHURCH is your authority, but I know from your many posts that you do not believe much of what the bibles says, such as that Mary is the mother of God the Son and that the consecrated bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Jesus Christs.

I believe the Bible when it says that those who believed that Jesus spoke of eating literal flesh were those who betrayed Him.

no, it actually meshes well with the 'triune'. see, the power that jesus
used upon the earth, was not used by other people, such as he used it.
he kept refering to the father, and he used the power of god (if you
believe his miracles), so god was definitely living in him, and working
his power through jesus. you have to remember, it was flesh god was
doing his will through.

Not, God was living in Him. God was Him.


the holy spirit of god was the power of god
working through the flesh. so you can see that you cannot take away
jesus' flesh, spirit(he was alive), and god's spirit(working miracles).
this 'triune' interpretation works for me.

God doesn't need the power of god to do His work. I don't know if you're catching on or not. But, Christ was all man, all God.

JoeT

Are we all theologians, specialists in Greek, Latin and other dead languages? If not, then are we to discern which is the Truth and which is not? Therefore, rightly, The teaching authority of the Church, promised to you and I by Christ, fills this role as commissioned by Christ.


The important question is - what is the church? Denominations formed starting 325AD (such as yours), or the word of God (the Bible) and the body of Christ (the body of all believers regardless of what denomination they belong to).

I accept the latter because no denominations are mentioned in scripture and jesus did not speak of delegating anything to any denomination.

Nor does scripture say that God was conceived in Mary.

JoeT777,
Yes, that IS the reason Jesus did establish an earthly authority to exist after he ascended to the Father in heaven.
It, The Church, has been diligently doing it's appointed Job "feed my sheep" for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

The important question is - what is the church? Denominations formed starting 325AD (such as yours), or the word of God (the Bible) and the body of Christ (the body of all believers regardless of what denomination they belong to).

I accept the latter because no denominations are mentioned in scripture and jesus did not speak of delegating anything to any denomination.

I’m going to get clobbered for getting so far off this thread when De Maria logs back on. So, I’m going to pass on this, except to say you know I disagree.


Nor does scripture say that God was conceived in Mary.

Oh, but it does. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Luke 1: 31-33)

JoeT

JoeT777,
Yes, that IS the reason Jesus did establish an earthly authority to exist after he ascended to the Father in heaven.
It, The Church, has been diligently doing it's appointed Job "feed my sheep" for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)


Yes Fred exacatly! Feed my lambs... feed my lambs... feed my sheep.

Why do you suppose it goes: feed lambs, feed lambs, feed sheep? What's the significance?

JoeT

JoeT777,
Yes, that IS the reason Jesus did establish an earthly authority to exist after he ascended to the Father in heaven.

My Jesus is still here. As God, He is omnipresent. Sorry to hear about yours.

My Jesus is still here. As God, He is omnipresent. Sorry to hear about yours.


He sits at the right hand of the Father. He left so that the Holy Spirit could come. Do you recall which verse that was?

Oh, but it does. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Luke 1: 31-33)


Back to my question - if I were to use your faulty logic syllogism, I would come up with this:

Jesus is God.
Jesus was conceived in Mary.
Therefore God was conceived in Mary.

Do you believe that God was conceived?

Back to my question - if I were to use your faulty logic syllogism, I would come up with this:

Jesus is God.
Jesus was conceived in Mary.
Therefore God was conceived in Mary.

Do you believe that God was conceived?

Repeating my first response: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. "

This is what I believe - if you'll notice it starts with "I believe."

JoeT

Repeating my first response: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. "

This is what I beleive - if you'll notice it starts with "I believe."

Still avoiding the question which is - was God conceived.

I find it humorous how you are avoiding this question. But I know why. You dare not answer because it would open up all sorts of problems which you'd rather not deal with.

Tj3,
No matter how you try to twist it, JoeT777 answered your question.
I also believe that Jesus Christ, my Lord, God the son, was conceived in Mary's womb overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.
Well over one billion people believe that correctly.
If you do not that is your business and fault not mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Am I to understand that Catholics see no difference between God The Father and God the Son? You keep quoting that scripture which says "son of God" and then equating it to "God", saying that "God" was conceived by Mary, making her the "mother of God"?

While I am here there is something else that applies here (and many other places), and that is this; is the Bible the Word of God or not? If it is the Word of God, then NO ONE has any right to add to, subtract from, or supercede it. Logic tells me you cannot say it is the Word of God and also say chruch tradition or pronouncement of a Pope is just as, or more valid than the Bible. Which do you choose?

Not, God was living in Him. God was Him.



God doesn't need the power of god to do His work. I don't know if you're catching on or not. But, Christ was all man, all God.

JoeT
Hi... I'm sure jesus, as a baby, didn't levitate his pacifier to his mouth. But still the ancient god was working and living. God was
Working through flesh. He did this through the holy spirit. If I have
This correctly, you want me to accept that jesus somehow ruled the
Universe, even while here in the flesh on earth. Then why did he keep
Talking about his father, and why did he have yet to ascend to him? Not
To mention asking the father for the holy spirit to send to us, so that
We could be one as they are one. Which brings me to the point that we
Are able to become one with god, just as jesus is one with god, through
The holy spirit. Are we gods then? If you want to call us that, but we
Certainly don't rule the universe or heaven.

Am I to understand that Catholics see no difference between God The Father and God the Son? You keep quoting that scripture which says "son of God" and then equating it to "God", saying that "God" was conceived by Mary, making her the "mother of God"?

Yes, in the New Testament the title “the Son of God” is used to express the Divinity of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). (e.g. Luke 1:32, 35; John 1:49) In Matthew, chapter 16, verse 15, Peter declares that Jesus is “the son of the living God.”

Regarding the birth of Jesus: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary." I’m using the formula of the Apostle’s Creed so that I don’t misrepresent the Church’s position.


While I am here there is something else that applies here (and many other places), and that is this; is the Bible the Word of God or not?

Catholic would agree that the Scriptures are the inspired word of God written by men and as such are sacred. The Church holds that Scripture and Apostolic Tradition must be in harmony to be taught by the Magisterium of the Church for those things necessary for salvation.


If it is the Word of God, then NO ONE has any right to add to, subtract from, or supersede it.

No one in the Church has added to Scripture. No one has subtracted anything from Scriputre. The Church has maintain the Scripture through the ages. As I understand the way Catholic theology works, is that Scripture must bear out Tradition; as well as Tradition must bear out Scripture. Catholics today hold the same faith as those taught by the original 12 Apostles.


Logic tells me you cannot say it is the Word of God and also say church tradition or pronouncement of a Pope is just as, or more valid than the Bible. Which do you choose?
You’re absolutely right. The Pope can’t stand up and say – “believe this way” or you will not receive salvation. That is, without teaching through Scripture in harmony with Tradition. He’s prevented by the Holy Spirit. In this way we are assured by Christ’s promise to protect the Church from error. Furthermore, the Church teaches that the Holy Spirit protects the Pope from making any such error. But, this does not prohibit the Pope from establishing certain disciplines, e.g. ban on married priests. Or, from invoking his right to “bind or loosen,” e.g. the right of Rome to issue indulgences. (Which by the way, contrary to Protestant belief, can’t be sold)

I’ve explained these issues using my words and understanding of the RCC. I can, if you would like, discuss them more rigorously as they apply to Church doctrine; but I would suggest you do it under a different thread

JoeT

Joet777, we both believe in god, and jesus as the son of god. Mary
Was jesus' mother on earth. Mary was not born before god, and so cannot
Be the mother of god, as god is also spirit and timeless. We both want to follow god's will in our lives. God should be the focus, as we were created for his good pleasure. God has a plan for mankind, which involves his holy spirit within us. We are to become sons of god. How does this happen? Do catholics have a way to get there?

Cogs,
The bible says that Mary conceived and give birth to Jesus Christ.
It also says, Matthew 1:23. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,'' which is translated, "God with us.''
Because the bible says that Mary is the mother of God I believe it.
Jesus other name is Immanuel or "God with us".
That is perfectly clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura, thanks for your continued patience. I don't think we're on opposing sides of this, just a different perspective. If we were to look at jesus on earth, what would we see before us? A being that looks and acts just like us, a man. We would have seen his birth, infancy, childhood, teens, and then manhood. He would have appeared to us just as we are. The bible even says that he wasn't anything special, as far as appearance. The people up to that time had not seen god. Maybe god was not even see-able. So when we would have called jesus 'god with us', we surely would have been talking about something other than his humanity, else we would have called him 'average joe'. His divinity was only apparent from his miracles, and words. So something internal was active in jesus. I believe this was god. God is spirit. He can act through anything, just as jesus said he could have raised up stones to praise him. So when you say that mary birthed jesus, we agree. Where my perspective changes, is that the internal thing that made jesus different from us, was only available to him in the way that he did miracles and remained sinless. Not only that, but jesus' authority was given to him, to pay for sins as a sacrifice. We weren't accepted as a sacrifice. Mary, as well, could not be accepted as that sacrifice. She did not have that authority. And there is no record of her miracles. Yes, she birthed jesus, but his authority and power did not encompass her. So I can say that with jesus, god is with us. But with mary, god is not with us.

joet777, we both believe in god, and jesus as the son of god. mary
was jesus' mother on earth. mary was not born before god,

I never made the statement that Mary “Mary was born before God,” never implied it.


and so cannot be the mother of god,

Oh, but she was. She was the selfless handmaiden of God, blessed among women, full of grace; the “Mother of my Lord.” (Cf. Luke 1) What other person in the New Testament is honored this way?

God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ, who was man with God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary as according to “Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1: 31-33)

Mary birthed Christ. Just as we call the woman that gave birth to us, we call Mary the Mother of Christ; conceived in her womb she brought forth a son, the Messiah.


god is also spirit and timeless.
Agreed


we both want to follow god's will in our lives. god should be the focus, as we were created for his good pleasure.
God is the focus. Agreed, however as your father wants you to respect and honor your Mother, so does Christ wish for us to honor and respect His Mother; "behold thy mother."


god has a plan for mankind, which involves his holy spirit within us. we are to become sons of god. how does this happen? do catholics have a way to get there?
Yes, with fear and trembling do we work out our salvation, through faith and good works, harmoniously with God’s will, rejoicing in the sufferings for His sake, for our salvation; (Cf. Phil 2:12)

JoeT

catholics have a way to get there?

Sure, but that's an odd question. Who said we didn't? Didn't I address this above?

JoeT

cogs,
You are right about Mary, she is not divine, but her son was and is.
Mary gave birth to the God/Man Jesus who was/is fully God and fully a human man.
He has the attributes of both God and Man.
Don't forget that God appeared as a man to Abraham, but Jesus was/is a man and God.
With God all things are possible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

JoeT777
Right, we Catholics have a way to get there.
The Eucharist is one of them.
Having a good strong working faith is another.
All though the grace and mercy of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I never made the statement that Mary “Mary was born before God,” never implied it.
I know, I just say this to explain myself.


Oh, but she was. She was the selfless handmaiden of God, blessed among women, full of grace; the “Mother of my Lord.” (Cf. Luke 1)
I believe she was.


God is the focus. Agreed, however as your father wants you to respect and honor your Mother, so does Christ wish for us to honor and respect His Mother; "behold thy mother."
I agree jesus respects his mother. The bible says to honor your father and mother.


Yes, with fear and trembling do we work out our salvation, through faith and good works, harmoniously with God’s will, rejoicing in the sufferings for His sake, for our salvation; (Cf. Phil 2:12)
JoeT
Yes, this is the work we should be doing, god's will, and enduring the sufferings we encounter for his sake [that he died] for our salvation. (brackets mine) the trouble, is finding out what is his will.

god was working through flesh.

Respectfully, the difference between us is that I would have stated that “God was flesh” in Christ. I view the statement above as a form of Arianism (link). (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm)


JoeT

Here's where the confusion comes: if mary birthed god, then god would have been conceived in her womb. Since the bible tells us that in the beginning god created the earth, and everything else, then mary was not conceived. So logic follows that, that which was not conceived, conceived that which conceived that which was not conceived.

here's where the confusion comes: if mary birthed god, then god would have been conceived in her womb.
No confusion on my part. Mary birthed God is precisely what happened, but he was “conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit” (Cf. Luke 1) The fact that God resided in the womb of Mary is precisely why I suggested that Mary’s womb was like the Holy of Holies in Moses’ Tabernacle (Cf. Ex 32?-40). To suggest that God resided in an unclean temple simply would have been unimaginable in Christ's time and is as unimaginable as Moses failing to keep the Tabernacle ritually clean. Thus, we conclude that Mary was immaculately conceived (without sin) by some miraculous miracle of God. Catholics do believe in miracles.

Again: I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary." This was carefully worded for a reason at the dawn of Christendom.


since the bible tells us that in the beginning god created the earth, and everything else, then mary was not conceived. so logic follows that, that which was not conceived, conceived that which conceived that which was not conceived.

Yes, God created the earth and the heavens above, and it was good. But that knowledge doesn’t come to the logic that Jesus, the man, was separate from Christ, which was God.

JoeT

Then we agree... mary was not the mother of god. You could just as easily say that mary was the daughter of god because she was the daughter of eve, who god created. So father, mother, sister, brother, if it feels nice, don't think twice, shower the people you love with love. (james taylor)

then we agree... mary was not the mother of god. you could just as easily say that mary was the daughter of god because she was the daughter of eve, who god created. so father, mother, sister, brother, if it feels nice, don't think twice, shower the people you love with love. (james taylor)

Are you quoting James Taylor the singer-songwriter? Never heard of him. But Mary was Mother of God.

JoeT

cogs,
God is eternal and infinite, true.
God chose His Word to be born as a human man from a human woman named Mary.
As the bible says the word is God and was born of Mary and named Jesus, a human name.
So it was, so it is, so it will always be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I agree arcura. Joet777, yes, the singer. Did you say that right, that you do not agree that mary was mother of god? And by the way, I believe that jesus was somehow god, I just don't understand completely how god worked himself into flesh. Doesn't matter though, because jesus had the authority to atone for the world's sins, as a sinless sacrifice.

i agree arcura. joet777, yes, the singer. did you say that right, that you do not agree that mary was mother of god? and btw, i believe that jesus was somehow god, i just don't understand completely how god worked himself into flesh. doesn't matter though, because jesus had the authority to atone for the world's sins, as a sinless sacrifice.


Yes I did say it backwards! I fixed it. I can agree that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world. (I didn't say that backwards).

JoeT

JoeT777, then who was jesus talking about when he said, 'i go to the father'?

JoeT777,
I'm glad you fixed that.
Also I note that God has the power to create this vast universe we live in with billions of galaxies and trillions of stars plus who knows how many planets.
So how come some can not fathom that He has the power to be born of a Human woman and to change bread and wine into His body and blood?
That is beyond me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cogs,
According to the Bible the triune God is the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.
The Father's heavenly kingdom is in heaven so when Jesus said that he is going to the Father then to heaven is where he went.
The bible tells us that Jesus sits to the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
So that is basically where they rule from.
That is the way I understand it.
I suspect that JoeT777 understands it similarly.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

joeT777, then who was jesus talking about when he said, 'i go to the father'?

To avoid an error on my part I'll quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85


254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

Therefore when Christ said 'I go to the father' he was implying that the 2nd person of God would go to the first person of God.

JoeT

cogs,
According to the Bible the triune God is the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.
The Father's heavenly kingdom is in heaven so when Jesus said that he is going to the Father then to heaven is where he went.
The bible tells us that Jesus sits to the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
So that is basically where they rule from.
That is the way I understand it.
I suspect that JoeT777 understands it similarly.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Its one and the same; except that your answer seems so much easier than the CCC

JoeT

JoeT777,
Thanks much, Joe.
You made it much clearer than did I.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
No matter how you try to twist it, JoeT777 answered your question.

And was the answer YES or NO? Did he say that God was conceived or not?


I also believe that Jesus Christ, my Lord, God the son, was conceived in Mary's womb overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe God was conceived in Mary?


Well over one billion people believe that correctly.

Really? You polled these one billion people, did you? Or are you just claiming to speak on their behalf?

Do you believe God's doctrine is rightly determined by majority vote?

I think I get your belief now: that mary could have mothered god, because jesus was god, putting aside that the father is god also. My thoughts are always on how the spiritual reacts with the physical. This is because we must interact with god on some level. The holy spirit must do something in us, for us to be transformed into doing his will. If I just believe in god, it soon becomes apparent that I'm not changing, and I start to sin. There has to be something spiritual interacting with the physical. And since jesus promised the holy spirit, which we cannot see, just as we cannot see god, then this spirit must be inside doing something for,to,with,or in us. I honestly believe it's just as the bible says, that jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and that includes the evil within us, through working his will by the spirit.

i think i get your belief now: that mary could have mothered god, because jesus was god, putting aside that the father is god also.
It’s not just “my” belief.

But, I think you came pretty close – I don’t know how or why you would “put aside the Father.” The idea isn’t that you’re putting Him aside; it’s that God is revealing himself in the Person of Christ. I’ve heard the three parts of the Trinity described as; God is the cause, the Son of God is the presence of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Word of God. Yet one god.

my thoughts are always on how the spiritual reacts with the physical. this is because we must interact with god on some level. the holy spirit must do something in us, for us to be transformed into doing his will. if i just believe in god, it soon becomes apparent that i'm not changing, and i start to sin. there has to be something spiritual interacting with the physical. and since jesus promised the holy spirit, which we cannot see, just as we cannot see god, then this spirit must be inside doing something for,to,with,or in us. i honestly believe it's just as the bible says, that jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and that includes the evil within us, through working his will by the spirit.
I don’t know if you intended to be understood this way, but I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough. But that makes for an entirely different topic.

JoeT

It’s not just “my” belief.
But, I think you came pretty close – I don’t know how or why you would “put aside the Father.” The idea isn’t that you’re putting Him aside; it’s that God is revealing himself in the Person of Christ. I’ve heard the three parts of the Trinity described as; God is the cause, the Son of God is the presence of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Word of God. Yet one god.
I'm not saying jesus wasn't god. Jesus said that he is the way to god, and I believe that he's intimately connected to god, the father. I really don't think we're ever going to separate one, (father, son, spirit), without the other, which makes sense, because they are of one will, and work it in heaven and this world. They are a dynamic person. But what I believe, is that god's holy spirit jesus promised to us, is what will change us. And the atonement of jesus is what will forgive us.



I don’t know if you intended to be understood this way, but I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough. But that makes for an entirely different topic.

JoeT
yes, that's another subject.

i'm not saying jesus wasn't god. jesus said that he is the way to god, and i believe that he's intimately connected to god, the father. i really don't think we're ever going to separate one, (father, son, spirit), without the other, which makes sense, because they are of one will, and work it in heaven and this world. they are a dynamic person. but what i believe, is that god's holy spirit jesus promised to us, is what will change us. and the atonement of jesus is what will forgive us.

I agree. The intent of my post wasn't to give you any impression other that that expressed here.

JoeT

JoeT777
You said, "I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough."
I agree!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777
You said, "I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough."
I agree!!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

I see that you also avolid the question - Was God conceived? YES or NO?

BTW, you are right simply believing is not enough - scripture says that we must believe IN Him. Quite different.

Fred,

I see that you also avolid the question - Was God conceived? YES or NO?

BTW, you are right simply believing is not enough - scripture says that we must believe IN Him. Quite different.

God was not created but God was conceived in Mary's womb.

Luke 1 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Now if you claim that Jesus is not God, then go ahead. But if Jesus is God, then God is conceived in Mary's womb.

Define: conceive
Fertilisation (also known as conception, fecundation and syngamy), is fusion of gametes to produce a new organism of the same species. In animals, the process involves a sperm fusing with an ovum, which eventually leads to the development of an embryo. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceive

You seem to regard the word conceive as always synonymous with new Creation. But you are wrong. Conceive also means to fertilize in the womb. In a normal fertilization, we have two pre existing seeds, the man's and the woman's joining together and forming an organic being.

In Mary's womb, we have pre existing GOD (i.e. God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity) joining with Mary's seed. God took flesh in Mary's womb and thus Jesus was conceived. Jesus, being Son of the Most High, is God from the instant of His Conception because the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is God from all eternity.

Sincerely,

De Maria

God was not created but God was conceived in Mary's womb.

If God was conceived, then God had a beginning, which denies the eternal pre-existed of God.

God was not conceived in Mary's womb. What began in her womb was the flesh in which God was manifested.

If God was conceived, then God had a beginning,

Wrong. We all know that God existed before Mary. Therefore, Jesus conception in the womb could not be the beginning of God.


which denies the eternal pre-existed of God.

You are trying to force that into Catholic doctrine. But obviously you don't know much about Catholic doctrine.


God was not conceived in Mary's womb. What began in her womb was the flesh in which God was manifested.

But Jesus was and Jesus is God. Therefore God was conceived in Mary's womb.

The only way you can logically believe that God was not conceived in Mary's womb is the Nestorian heresy which denies the Divinity of Christ:

Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.
Mary: Mother of God (http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp)

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3.
Yes, God the son was conceived in Mary's womb, but He was not created there.
God is eternal and infinite.
You denying Mar is the mother of God is saying that she conceived Just a man and not God the Son. Therefore according to you Jesus is not God.
With God all things are possible.
By the way as I have said many times I believe in and on the triune God.
Please no longer try to infer that I do not!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tj3.
Yes, God the son was conceived in Mary's womb, but He was not created there.

Then you do not understand what it means to conceive.

But Jesus was and Jesus is God. Therefore God was conceived in Mary's womb.

Then you must hold to the Mormon view that God had a beginning

Tj3,
Yes I fully understand what conceived means.
Thank you.
Fred

Tj3,
Yes I fully understand what conceived means.
Thank you.
Fred

Then are you saying that you believe God had a beginning?

Tj3,
NO!
I am not say9ng that.
God is eternal.
Don't try to twist my words again as you often do.
Just admit that you do not understand my belief that Mary IS the Mother of God the Son, the third person of the eternal triune God.
Peace and kindnesd,
Fred

Then you must hold to the Mormon view that God had a beginning

The only way you can defeat Catholic doctrine is by twisting it. You know full well that God is eternal. But God willed to be conceived in Mary's womb.

Its in Scripture:
Luke 1 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

So, its you against Scripture. Whom should I believe? I believe Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
I also believe scripture and not Tj3.
I have not believed him since I met him on askme.com years ago.
Fred

De Maria,
I also believe scripture and not Tj3.
I have not believed him since I met him on askme.com years ago.
Fred

Fred,

You never seem to understand. I have never asked you to believe me. I don't care if you believe me. That is why I go to God's word, and I hope that you will some day believe what it says!

Tj3,
NO!
I am not say9ng that.
God is eternal.

Then there could never have been a time where God was conceived.

The only way you can defeat Catholic doctrine is by twisting it.

I don't try to defeat Catholic doctrine. That is not my objective. My objective is to test all doctrine as the Bereans did and to see if it is true. Where any doctrine fails to align, then we will see that when we compare it to what god's word says.



You know full well that God is eternal.

I do indeed. I also know that God was from eternity past and at no time was conceived.



But God willed to be conceived in Mary's womb.

That is self contradictory. If a person wills to be conceived, then they are pre-existent and no conceived. To say that God was conceived is Mormon doctrine.

This is where your position becomes contradictory. That is because you fail to take into account the fact that God was not conceived, but that God was "manifested in the flesh" (1 Tim 3:16).

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

It is the flesh into which Giod was manifested which was conceived. Scripture nowhere says that God was conceived.

Tj3,
There are many things said in the bible that you DO believe.
It is sad that there are several things that the bible clearly says that you do not believe.
I hope that someday you will be able to speak with Jesus Chrsit's, God The Son's mother and answer her when she asks "Why do you not believe I am who I am, THE Mother of God the Son."
That hope says that I am hoping and praying that you do make it to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
It is sad that there are several things that the bible clearly says that you do not believe.

Fred,

Making false accusations does not help your position one iota. If you wish to debate a point, then do so, but do so with honesty.

Tj3,
There are many things said in the bible that you DO believe.
It is sad that there are several things that the bible clearly says that you do not believe.
I hope that someday you will be able to speak with Jesus Chrsit's, God The Son's mother and answer her when she asks "Why do you not believe I am who I am, THE Mother of God the Son."
That hope says that I am hoping and praying that you do make it to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


1 John 5:10-11He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Christ Born of God

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of Him.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Peter 1:19-21 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Speaking the Truth, Christ Born by the Word of God Incorruptive From the Beginning

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

God is the Father of all who hear.. No favorites.. God loves all His children who follow Him..

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Show Honor, Praise and Glory to ONE..

The incorruptive seed of God was Christ Jesus... Mary was a virgin vessel used to carry the incorreuptible seed of God. She was blessed by God, and kept holy, thus clean.

When St. Elizabeth greets Mary the Mother of Jesus, she says:

Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

I believe she is recognizing that Jesus is God and therefore means Mother of my God.

What do you think she means?
... For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.

And Mary abode with her about three months; and she returned to her own house. Now Elizabeth's full time of being delivered was come, and she brought forth a son...

Of course, Elisabeth recognized Mary to be the Mother of God, and so she was celebrating with humility that Mary had chosen to visit her. This is what is being celebrated in the Feast of the Visitation

Of course, Elisabeth recognized Mary to be the Mother of God, and so she was celebrating with humility that Mary had chosen to visit her. This is what is being celebrated in the Feast of the Visitation

It is just as much an error to deny that Jesus is fully man as to deny that He is fully God. When men claim that Mary is mother of God, that effectively denioes that she was the vessel through whom God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16), and effectively denies the eternal pre-existence of God, and subsequently makes Mary a god.

It is just as much an error to deny that Jesus is fully man as to deny that He is fully God. When men claim that Mary is mother of God, that effectively denioes that she was the vessel through whom God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16), and effectively denies the eternal pre-existence of God, and subsequently makes Mary a god.

Anyone who denies that Mary is the Mother of God, denies that Jesus is God.

A woman who adopts a son and gives him a bottle, changes his diaper, sits him on her lap and rocks him to sleep is considered that child's mother.

The woman who gave birth to the Son of God, suckled Him at her breast, and rocked Him to sleep is the Mother of God, because that child is God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3,
YOURS is the false accusation about me.
It has been show here repeatedly by many that you refuse to believe what the bible says about several things.
sndbay above has again shown you the truth from the bible that The Son of God was born of Mary.
You do not believe it. That is your choice.
As I said it is useless to discus it further with you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Anyone who denies that Mary is the Mother of God, denies that Jesus is God.

That false accusation is getting pretty stale, especially since by doing so, you are accusing the overwhelming majority of Christian denominations as heretical. Nice try, but once again, I stick with what God's word says, and if you think it to be heretical, that is your issue, not mine.

Indeed your comment reminds me of the words of Jesus:

Luke 11:27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
KJV

Tj3,
YOURS is the false accusation about me.
It has been show here repeatedly by many that you refuse to believe what the bible says about several things.

Really Fred? All I see from you is false accusations and your opinions - which, contrary to what you may believe, are not canonical! God's word is, yours isn't.


Sndbay above has again shown you the truth from the bible that The Son of God was born of Mary.

And who argued that He wasn't? Of course, another false accusation from you, Fred. Show us the quote - you won't because it is a boldfaced lie.

Be careful -

Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NKJV

Now if you feel that sndbay has the truth, then why not ask if he believes that Mary is the mother of God and in the heresy that God was conceived?

Tj3,
Yes!!
ReallY!
Discussing this issue with you is useless.
Fred

Tj3,
Yes!!!
ReallY!!
Discussing this issue with you is useless.
Fred

If you plan to continue to try to refute what scripture says with your opinion, yes, no doubt you will find it frustrating.

Tj3,
YOURS is the false accusation about me.
It has been show here repeatedly by many that you refuse to believe what the bible says about several things.
sndbay above has again shown you the truth from the bible that The Son of God was born of Mary.
You do not believe it. That is your choice.
As I said it is useless to discus it further with you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, As a child of God I trust that everything of goodness was of Our Father. I put no other before His Word and doctrine. In my heart and mind it will be the Will of God that is chosen.
Causion should be used in anything said by man because no man is perfect, but man should live in hopes of the prefecting faith. In the light of Christ and following Christ. Christ is the vine, the flesh that makes it possible for life with Our Father.

Show Honor, Praise and Glory to ONE..

The incorruptive seed of God was Christ Jesus... Mary was a virgin vessel used to carry the incorreuptible seed of God. She was blessed by God, and kept holy, thus clean. Any and all good works are manifest beforehand by God.

Scripture also tells us not one man was ever born of woman clean. Job 25:4-5 How then can man be justified with God? Or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

Honor no other then God Our Father..

1 Timothy 4:12-13 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

The doctrine is Our Father's Word, The Spiritual Truth

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

Mary herself gave all praise to the Lord. Her journey was blessed and manfested by God. A chosen vessel, a child of God herself, as Christ told us in the scripture of love shown to all that believe and hear His Word. Luke 8:21 God is the Father of all who hear.. No favorites.. God loves all His children who follow Him..

Luke 8:21 And He answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Thread closed, the facts of the matter presented over and over, merely repeating the same material.
The people what will accept it will, those that don't won't