Just my thoughts. I can HAVE & SPEAK. About them. This America!! Why should Mexican people be any different, than any other person wanting to come to the US ? The process of any person wanting to come to the US should be the same for ALL!! A person from Europe, such as Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Go through a very strict process even to visit here. Example. Even if a WEALTHY person from the Ukraine who wants to see sites like Disney Land, Hollywood etc. Many detailed documents must be completed and viewed by the American consulate in their country. Also a in person interview. They must show cause and reason why they would want to return to their homeland. Such as own a business, family they support. Also meet income requirements. Then if all is OK, they MIGHT get a visa to come here. Even so, it could be a year or longer before they get the visa. I know that many of the thousands of Mexican people who cross or boarder illegal everyday are good God fearing people who want to better their life. But reality dictates a large % of these people are involved in Drug, Weapons, Gang related issues. Also reality is many of the illegal Mexicans who are here already, tax the medical & welfare system. Meaning less for the Real Americans who are native or here legal. There are some issues that just piss me off. I live in central California where English is pretty much a second language. I might be more supportive of their cause if they did not wave the Mexican Flag, wanting to be Americans. I also do not understand our National Anthem words to be changed for their cause. It has been many years since I have studied about our fight for independence from England 200+ years ago. But I do not recall any Mexicans being there. My stepfather was a Mexican. Even way back in the 70's he did not like term Mexican American. He said that he was a American who just happened to be a Mexican. Amen to that!! I do not feel we need for Congress to make new laws, costing American Tax Payers MILLIONS of dollars. We just need to enforce the laws we have. Therefore ANYBODY from Mexico or Tim Buck Two, who are here illeagle should be ARRESTED & DEPORTED YESTERDAY!! But that's just me. :)

Hey it is me again
Althow I do believe that it is not fair that mexicens do not have to do all that stuff
Some of these people are poor or have something else inthere life that makes them not abel to fill these requirements and the have no chance of a better life in mexico so they need to get in to the US so they can have a better life

This applise to people in other contries also but they don't relly have a way to get across the border that easy so I will just talk about mexicens for now

Also or aconemy needs them we would not be abel to function without them

While yes many of these people are poor, so are the people in many african nations, middle eastern nations, china, and so on.
But they don't get to come just because they are poor.

If these people were all middle eastern and all here illegally, how fast would they start sending them home ?

Thank You Fr_Chuck. Just because Mexico is a boarder Country should make no difference. Not that we have a problem with Canada, but the same LAW should apply to ALL. That is my point. The LAW has to be drawn & enforsed because it is the LAW. The protest, Mexican Flags, our National Anthom and the term Mexican American is my opinion. The word illeagal means crossing against a LAW. The opposite of legal. Doing something against what a majority of people, persons in our Government voted on for the betterment of the American society. I will admit there are some old & silly outdated laws. But when you are talking about National Security & social/economic issues that are a true injustice for hard working legal Americans, you don't screw with. I am not a RACIST, or hate anyone. But I feel we are Ameicans or not. I respect all cultures. But the term Mexican, African, Asian American, I just don't get. I do not claim to be a European Decent American. Just American & proud of it. The only true Americans are Native Americans (Ameican Indian). And we all know that story. And at some point 5000+ years ago, they migrated from Asia. But hey that's just me.:)

I say SUE the president if you're NOT of Mexican descent!! its discrimination outright!

Today is the boycott so Mexican immigrants can show how important they are to the economy. A lot has been said about the immigrants' importance to the economy and how they do jobs Americans don't want, which is a crock to begin with. Here in Texas the evidence shows that they actually cost jobs and are exploited daily by contractors who pay them below minimum wage, thereby running many who can make a decent living priced out of the market. Your president knows this but has done nothing because he knows it benefits his rich buddies, and keeps wages low.:cool: :eek:

Hi, Rublue,
I could not agree with you more!
The problem with Mexican illegal immigrants is it's NOT a priority with the Federal Gov't. We help with the North Viet Nam and South Viet Nam borders, protecting them. But, we can't supply the needed money to take care of those crossing out borders illegally!
CO is now working on getting signatures for the State elections in Nov, stating no State Money is to be used for illegal immigrants. Congress is working on a Bill to make it mandatory that the National Anthem be sung in ENGLISH, not Spanish. English is the major language for America, and should not be turned into Spanish or any other language.
These illegal immigrants are hired by companies, due to working for less. The Federal Gov't has not been doing it's job, supplying needed money for protecting the borders, and this is the result! The illegals are taking advantage of our own taxes, with States spending our own money, and we are paying for it. This is the results.
I really think you will finally begin to see the rest of American voters speaking out and voting, against what is, and has been, happening.

I agree!! Here in my large city in Central California, we have a huge agricultural industry. Going to be a big Hoop T do event. Protest parade, kid's cutting school, walk out, boycott etc. This is a day I am glad we have a Maveric, good ole boy Police Dept. Always known to shoot first & ask questions later. DO NOT PUT UP WITH ANY CRAP. But I to will take to the streets, to support & stand firm on a cause I have much passion for. Unfortunately there a some on that side I do not agree with their ideology. Skin Heads, Nazi white supremacist. I am not a Racist, or hate anyone. Just a LAW abiding American working class Joe. At this point our failed Government, I have very little Faith in. God Bless America!! God help our failing Government!!

I now understand the frustratin famous people, Movie & TV stars & politicians etc, are angry with the media. At the Protest I went to today May 1st. At a very large park in my city. Police said on the news about 3500 to 4000 people. I was very much a minority by color & opinion. Local news TV wanted a brief interview, because of being on the other side. So not thinking DUH. I was wearing a baseball cap backwards with Sun glasses. The news anchor led with questions. It only lasted maybe 3 or 4 minutes. But in my answers I stated I was not a Racist & hated nobody. So while watching the news I was shocked. Before my interview, was Mexican girl crying. She said she could not believe the hate people have for each other in 2006. Then me. My 3 or 4 minute interview was cut to 6 words. There I am, my full name at the bottom of the screen (yes I am stupid sometimes). The 6 words were THEY SHOULD BE ARRESTED AND DEPORTED. Wow!! Even those words were out of context. Looked like a real nice guy, especially after the crying girl talking about hate. Oh Well!! Live & learn. And screw the media. I learned my lesson. Never again!!

Hey Ru, things have a way of working out Here in The Great State of Texas No bodies mind has changed... immagrants are welcome... illegals are not!:cool:

Hey now that we're all talking about illegal Mexican Immigration perhaps you all can help me out! I'm writing a research arguing paper on Cuban vs. Mexican Immigration. My paper as opposed to the title is about if the U.S. government had a choice between the two countries, which should it let it in illegally? Mexico or Cuba? On my paper I wrote Cuba. My reasons being Cubans are dealing a heck of a lot of crap right now more than the Mexicans. I was just wondering if I could conduct an online interview with any of you to add some more support to this paper. I don't think the professor said it had to be a real argument as long as its arguing some point across its fine! Just let me know who wants to be interviewed right now??

This America!!

You have a very interesting way of saying things.

The geographical area you are so patriotically defending wasn't always America. It was once Mexico, and was defended as Mexico by Mexicans before it was taken by force under the fanatical belief of Manifest Destiny. Then to add insult to injury those Mexicans who had been guaranteed fair treatment under the treaty were stripped of their wealth with the help of hundreds of Anglo lawyers who greedily converged on the area hell bent on using any illegal means at their disposal to strip the Mexicans of their land and property. These formerly wealthy Mexican families were forced into poverty.


The irony of it all is that Mexico lost half its territory because of a conflict with foreigners whom they had legally permitted to live in Mexico, you know, the area called Texas. These immigrants had promised to abide by Mexican law in order to be allowed to live there and had taken oaths that they would. But then by rebelling against Mexican Law they became illegals and in that illegal state proceeded to wage a war of independence. So Mexico lost Texas. Later, when it protested against this loss they were stripped of California. New Mexico, Colorado and Arizona. This aggression was internationally criticized by the word's governments an ILLEGAL. Yet no heed was given to this accusation of ILLEGAL since to do so would mean that the stolen land would have to be returned to its LEGAL owner--Mexico and Manifest Destiny wouldn't quite jive with that.




I also do not understand our National Anthem words to be changed for their cause.:)

Could the problem be because you do not know Spanish? I didn't know that the illegals were suggesting that everyone sing the national anthem in Spanish!




It has been many years since I have studied about our fight for independence from England 200+ years ago. But I do not recall any Mexicans being there.


Perhaps they were studying history at another location? : )

But seriously, since when has ancestral participation in the War for independence been a requirement for American citizenship? Since you think that Hispanics are the only ones whose ancestors did not participate? Actually, criterion can be applied to millions of immigrant Italians, Jews. Poles, Germans, Irish, and others whose ancestors arrived a little after that war was over. Ever consider that? In any case--and I'm almost sure that it will come as a total shock to you, Mexicans did participate in that war. Even Puerto Ricans did under general Galvez since a contingent from the island was relocated to Texas to be under his command. Ever here of Galvez? Galveston?

Who was Bernardo Galvez?
Spain was an ally of France and an economic competitor of Great Britain. These relationships prompted Spain to officially enter the war against Great Britain in 1779.. . GÁLVEZ, BERNARDO DE (1746-1786). Bernardo de Gálvez was born on July 23, 1746, in Macharaviaya, a...
Who was Bernardo Galvez? (http://www.hispanicamericanheroesseries.com/who.php)


Look it up. He was a Spanish governor of that area who helped the American freedom fighters against the British with Spain's approval.
Hispanics in World History, an overview of Hispanic contributions to the World... States of America? Hispanics funded the American War of Independence, and not even... war since the War of Independence, however our history books omit this tremendous contribution...
Hispanics in History (http://www.getnet.com/~1stbooks/omit.htm)

Hispanic Perspective
... all contributions Hispanics made to the American war for independence. The Contribution and levels of... decisive. The Spanish contribution to the American War of Independence were in...
Hispanic Perspective (http://www.seguindescendantshp.com/hispanic.htm)



CONTRIBUTIONS OF HISPANIC AMERICANS IN THE UNITED STATES122
... in the War for American Independence. Spain's Role in the Atlantic and the Pacific. HISPANICS CONTRIBUTION TO AMERICA'S... as a result of the Spanish-American War.)
CONTRIBUTIONS OF HISPANIC AMERICANS IN THE UNITED STATES122 (http://www.hssmwlu28.com/contributions_of_hispanic_a.htm)

So why not do a little research before putting forth your ideas as fact?


I live in central California where English is pretty much a second language.

California? Wasn't that Mexico once and wasn't Spanish the official language of Mexico? If I invade Russia and take half the territory, isn't a bit weird for me to be amazed about how many people speak Russian in the area I took? : )


BTW
The ones who started the custom you claim to find annoying were those USA citizens of African descent who suddenly began preoudly calling themselves African Americans. No one had any complaints against that type of custom until now I suppose? At least I never heard any protest. So why now?

I guess this forum is dead by now but just my comment on original reference to 'good God fearing people'.What's that supposed to show? A pathetic picture of a poor nation to show they can be illegally present in any foreign nation(in this case US) ?

While US itself is a country made of Immigrants, however, it is important to make immigration and work permission a legal process. It is disturbing that they(protesting immigrants) are carrying the flag of their country when they are protesting to be legal in US! And, changing the national song into spanish? What's that? A dilemma of nationalism or sth?

Your identity is important but when you change yr nationality, it is important to understand that now you represent another land. People fail to see this as a big decision.

Immigration is a very important issue today in US as the country becomes more diverse. I recall a comedian making a remark on globalisation in this way: "One day, we are not going to have white ppl. You figure China and India almost covers the globe and they are all going to hump the whites one day and guess what's the kid going to be like?.."

I hope the issues r fairly resolved.

This issue is a long way from being resolved. And Bush putting 6000 National Guard Troops without the ability to arrest anyone is juts plain stupid. Funny & good thing. I have not heard anything about the destruction of our National Anthem lately.

Its obvious that the powers that be don't really want a solution. This issue didn't crop up over night and the solution will not be forth coming with out a lot of public outrage.:cool: :eek:

Wow Starman! You are quite the historian. You seemed to have left out the Native American Indian. And the plight they suffered by my European forefathers. But even they migrated from Asia 5000+ years ago. The point is this is 2006. Reality, for many years the boundries set on this part of the North American continent is called The United States of America. It's just the way it is, and it is not going to change. And as any country like Mexico, Russia, Poland, wherever, there are rules. With all that history I find it difficult to see who you are defending. The country of Mexico and how they were wronged in the 19th century. Or illegal Mexican immigration. I find great irony in how hard it is for a American to get Mexican citizenship. I have no problem with anyone coming to the US. Just as long as they follow procedure. That's called the LAW.

Werefang, I am opposed to anyone coming here illegally. There is no difference whether they are from Cuba, Mexico, Canada. Your question is like asking what is worse. Paying $4,00 for a gallon of gas. Or the CEO of Exxon/Mobil making $400 million a year. It's all wrong!! But that's just me!

Is there anyone out there who if you had to walk in the shoes of an alien would do any different? Maybe we all need to think a minute, What would make so many people risk so much?:cool: :eek:

Wow Starman!! You are quite the historian. You seemed to have left out the Native American Indian. And the plight they suffered by my European forefathers. But even they migrated from Asia 5000+ years ago. The point is this is 2006. Reality, for many years the boundries set on this part of the North American continent is called The United States of America. It's just the way it is, and it is not going to change. And as any country like Mexico, Russia, Poland, wherever, there are rules. With all that history I find it difficult to see who you are defending. The country of Mexico and how they were wronged in the 19th century. Or illegal Mexican immigration. I find great irony in how hard it is for a American to get Mexican citizenship. I have no problem with anyone coming to the US. Just as long as they follow procedure. That's called the LAW.


You seem to be a stickler for procedure and law as long as others are the ones who are
Required to abide by procedure and law. Otherwise why would you so nonchalantly justify land theft and ignore the role our employers have played and continue to play in creating and perpetuating the present situation by their disrespect for American procedure and law? I'm sure that you are well aware that these employers are so money hungry that they feel justified in ignoring your cherished procedures and laws by encouraging illegal immigration. These employers know that paying people a fair salary is called law and yet our employers don't give a hoot when it comes to exploiting the illegal immigrants do they? This even though they are aware that paying people such low salaries for a hard day's work is inhumane. Not employing illegals is also called law and our American employers have ignored it for decades in order to profit financially haven't they? So let's view the whole situation as it has developed and not focus on the victims and cry out for their further victimization.


You say I am pro illegal immigration? Actually the issue isn't illegal immigration. The issue is the vehement refusal to accept Bush's suggested guest worker program or the naturalization of all honest hardworking people who are here already. That is the real issue since it involves a situation that was encouraged by our government by allowing these people to settle here while being exploited by our factories and farms and allowing them to grow in hope of a better future. That is the issue.

About the present state of affairs, I am not denying that this is the way it is. Neither am I denying that the present boundaries enclose what are NOW the United States. Neither am I suggesting that the boundaries be changed. Also, I am not advocating that hordes of illegal immigrants be allowed to cross our border unregulated since it endangers our national security. Also, I agree that countries should not be entered illegally.

Neither am I placing Mexico above the USA in reference to this issue of illegal immigration.
Obviously the Mexican government has a responsibility toward its citizens which it has to address and the sooner it does so the better. However, I am not sure whether the Mexican government has the resources needed to solve this poverty problem. So it then becomes a people problem doesn't it? And when we have a people problem we have a moral duty to show compassion for those deserving our compassion and if we are unable to offer help, then we might at least try to avoid kicking in the teeth of our fellowman when our fellowman is down.

About being a historian, in order to help them to gain a more balanced view of things,
People who habitually get on their morally high horse in reference to legality of residence have to be reminded just how the land which they are now self-righteously disputing about was illegally acquired.


BTW
What is morally wrong cannot be justified merely by an appeal to passage of time.

Is there anyone out there who if you had to walk in the shoes of an alien would do any different? Maybe we all need to think a minute, What would make so many people risk so much?:cool: :eek:

This fellow Lou Dobbs who regulary calls for unmerciful policies should one day wake up as a poor Mexican in need of earning a living, unable to find employement, and being faced with starvation. He should spend at least a month under those desperate circumstances. Then his identity should be restored. I'm sure he'd be singing a less vindictive song after the experience.

Or have him spend a month working eight hours a day on the farms while being paid below minimum wage by unscrupuous money hungry-employers. That should affect his present attitude.

This issue is a long way from being resolved. And Bush putting 6000 National Guard Troups without the ability to arrest anyone is juts plain stupid. Funny & good thing. I have not heard anything about the destruction of our National Anthem lately.

Funny that you should infer that these people are trying to destroy our national anthem when all they did was sing it in another language. Actually, they were trying to pay us a compliment because if an English speaker translates an Hispanic country's national anthem into English in order to sing it, it is considered by Hispanics an attempt at paying them a compliment. Obviously they are unfamiliar with a certain type of American mentality in reference to such things.

BTW
Some Americans find the Afro American ways of singing the national anthem both annoying and disrespectful. Yet they prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt in reference to their motives and say nothing because the motives or intentions of the singers are assumed to be noble.

Its obvious that the powers that be don't really want a solution. This issue didn't crop up over night and the solution will not be forth coming with out a lot of public outrage.:cool: :eek:



Strange that all those factrories seeking cheap labor should travel 12000 miles to Asia, communist China for example, instead of taking advantage of the cheap labor available to them in their sister democracies just across our border. If they had, the flow of illegal immigration would have ceased or would have been drastically reduced long ago.

Public outrage can have many causes.
Jorge Mariscal: The Paradox of Mexican Americans at War (http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKnbP3FE3NQA1gVrCqMX;_ylu=X3oDMTBvdmM3bGl xBHBndANhdl93ZWJfcmVzdWx0BHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=12562ggtv/EXP=1148359003/**http%3a//www.counterpunch.org/mariscal06242005.html)

I guess this forum is dead by now but just my comment on original reference to 'good God fearing people'.What's that supposed to show? a pathetic picture of a poor nation to show they can be illegally present in any foreign nation(in this case US) ?

While US itself is a country made out of Immigrants, however, it is important to make immigration and work permission a legal process. It is disturbing that they(protesting immigrants) are carrying the flag of their country when they are protesting to be legal in US! And, changing the national song into spanish? What's that? A dilemma of nationalism or sth?

Your identity is important but when you change yr nationality, it is important to understand that now you represent another land. People fail to see this as a big decision.

Immigration is a very important issue today in US as the country becomes more diverse. I recall a comedian making a remark on globalisation in this way: "One day, we are not going to have white ppl. You figure China and India almost covers the globe and they are all going to hump the whites one day and guess what's the kid going to be like?.."

I hope the issues r fairly resolved.

All available data shows clearly that your accusation has no basis inreality since Mexican Americans and other Hispanic Americans have repeatedly fought for the country in whichthey are citizens, the USA and have paid the ultimate prize by the thousands. S where you get thios weird idea is beyond me.

Additionally, Anglos don't have a monopoly on whitness as you seem to be assuming. The Hispanic community is composed of people of all races and only
A person who never benefited from an elementary education or is feigning blindness or is too infurtaiated by bigotry to see would argue otherwise.

Not only reduced but people affected by the plant closings would be going south HHMMMM.. It is no secret that there is no OSHA in Asia or China or is there such a thing as unions or health benefits that the company pays for... or... retirement packages for employees, the list goes on, Obviously the government of Mexico is to corrupt even for greedy American businessmen.:cool: :eek:

BTW-I've heard the spanish version of the Star Spangled Banner, its beautiful! But it was pulled from radio stations in Texas because it was said to be inflamatory.:cool: :confused:

I guess this forum is dead by now but just my comment on original reference to 'good God fearing people'.What's that supposed to show? a pathetic picture of a poor nation to show they can be illegally present in any foreign nation(in this case US) ?

While US itself is a country made out of Immigrants, however, it is important to make immigration and work permission a legal process. It is disturbing that they(protesting immigrants) are carrying the flag of their country when they are protesting to be legal in US! And, changing the national song into spanish? What's that? A dilemma of nationalism or sth?

Your identity is important but when you change yr nationality, it is important to understand that now you represent another land. People fail to see this as a big decision.

Immigration is a very important issue today in US as the country becomes more diverse. I recall a comedian making a remark on globalisation in this way: "One day, we are not going to have white ppl. You figure China and India almost covers the globe and they are all going to hump the whites one day and guess what's the kid going to be like?.."

I hope the issues r fairly resolved.

All available data shows clearly that your accusations of disloyalty has no basis in reality since Mexican Americans and other Hispanic Americans have repeatedly fought for the USA and have been willing to pay the ultimate prize by the thousands.

65th Infantry Regiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/65th_Infantry)


170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam;
133,500 Hispanics served in Korea

So where you get this disloyalty idea is beyond me.


Also, you seem to share a popular misconception about Hispanics and Anglos.
Anglos don't have a monopoly on whiteness and Hispanics are not a race.


Hispanic is not a race (http://www.panamerco.com/reason4.html)


BTW
Very often those boast the most about being patriotic Americans are the least suited to put themselves forth as representing the American ideal due to their bigotry, a state of mind which is more in tune with Nazism.

Not only reduced but people affected by the plant closings would be going south HHMMMM..........! It is no secret that there is no OSHA in Asia or China or is there such a thing as unions or health benefits that the company pays for ...or...retirement packages for employees, the list goes on, Obviously the government of Mexico is to corrupt even for greedy American businessmen.:cool: :eek:


There are already American factories in Mexico operating just fine. They are located close the border. Any explanation? Neither is Mexican government corruption said to be one of the factors which are preventing further business expansion there.

Excerpt:

American investors in Mexico are fully protected under Chapter 11 provisions of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).


Long-Term Financing to Businesses Investing in Mexico (http://www.maquilaportal.com/public/artic/artic95e.htm)

In fact, the Mexican government is taking steps to stop the present problem from getting worse.


Excerpt:

IN HISTORIC BREAKTHROUGH, OPIC TO SUPPORT PRIVATE INVESTMENT IN MEXICO

President Fox hails new opportunity for US-Mexican partnership

WASHINGTON, D.C. and MEXICO CITY – Opening its doors to America's second-largest trading partner and a potential boon to U.S. investment, Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) President and CEO George Muñoz and Mexico's Secretary of the Economy Luis Ernesto Derbez announced today that OPIC would offer long-term financing to U.S. small businesses investing in Mexico, setting the stage for the launch of OPIC programs in that country.

OPIC Press Release 0-04: 1/19/2001 (http://www.opic.gov/pressreleases/2001/1-04.htm)



BTW
The plants I am referring to don't provide jobs for Americans right now so in effect they are closed to Americans. Since I don't see Americans heading south now, how is it that because the factories close after going to Mexico would cause Americans to head south?
The ones most affected by the plants relocatiing to Mexico or closing in terms of jobs would be the Asiatics and the Mexican workers themselves as well as the factory owners.

Giant complexes of cement and glass stand where vast desert once was. The maquiladoras, American-owned factories in Mexico, are enormous, and their modern design creates a stark contrast with the run-down gas stations, homes and stores in their neighborhoods.
The maquiladoras are a sanitized version of doing business in Mexico that began in 1994 when the North American Free Trade Agreement took effect. NAFTA allows American businesses to go within 50 miles of the U.S. border in an area called the Free Trade Zone. In this area, businesses are not subject to U.S. taxes or many tariff restrictions. The signees of NAFTA—the United States, Mexico and Canada—have set a goal of 2008 for full implementation of the agreement's many objectives.
But the changes are already apparent. In 1990 there were 1,700 American factories in Mexico; in 2001 there were 3,600.
Currently, there are no health benefits and, for the most part, no unions in Juarez, according to Public Citizen, a non-profit public interest group. People interviewed for this story accused American companies of a number of abuses in Mexico:
• Improperly disposing waste, which has led to the contamination of drinking water and an elevated risk of Hepatitis A.
• Working people up to 12 hours a day.
• Showing a hiring preference toward women because they are more docile than men.
Since NAFTA took effect, the minimum wage has fallen 20 percent, according to Public Citizen. Half of the maquiladora workforce makes less than $8 a day.
The women who work in maquiladoras are often from rural parts of Mexico and have no family support system, says Tom Hanson, director of the Mexican Solidarity Network. That makes female maquiladora workers targets for killers.
The best-paid maquiladora workers are in the auto segment, Hanson says—they are paid $70 a week.
Tom Fullerton, an associate professor of business and finance at the University of Texas at El Paso, says NAFTA is not all bad, but some policies passed by the Mexican government have hampered reform.
“Maquiladoras have been in the area since the 1960s, but the Mexican government makes it hard for companies to lay off or terminate workers,” Fullerton says. “So when the economy goes into a decline, the wages the employees receive suffer since the companies cannot decrease their employees.
“A lot of people like to claim the maquiladoras don't pay fair wages, but look at the thousands at the border. Mexicans are voting with their feet—they leave behind their family and friends. Their situation could be much worse.”
Once, NAFTA was good for the border, says Richard Bath, a retired professor of political science at the University of Texas at El Paso.
“A lot has slipped behind,” he says. “A lot of the gains after NAFTA have been negated. The whole concept of NAFTA is anti-agricultural.”
Sales of corn, Mexico's staple crop, have been stunted by U.S. exports. When NAFTA began, nearly one quarter of Mexico's population—8 million people—was involved in agriculture. This number fell to 6.5 million people by 2003.
Global Trade Watch says the Mexican government recently estimated that more than half of its population doesn't earn enough money to cover the basics of food, clothing, health care, housing, education and public transportation.
“Unemployment in Juarez is only at about 2 percent, but if you sell cigarettes on the street, you are considered fully employed,” says Victor Muñoz, the co-director of the Coalition Against Violence for Women and Families on the Border.
I googled american factories in Mexico,and this was the first one that came up. Not a pretty picture at all but does show what american business men are doing in mexico. No wonder people are running!:cool: :eek: (sorry about the cut-paste)

Thanks for the information. I was under the impression that American-owned companies in Mexico were providing a way to make a living there. If indeed this is not working then the solution of immigrant flow across the border has to be another. It seems that the companies are causing the people to flee instead of causing them to remain in Mexico.
So their policies have to be addressed and modified by those who can do so. Otherwise they seem to be making the problem worse. Relocating factories with such policies would do no good. Can't the federal government force these companies to behave themselves properly? That is to say, sign a contract in which they promise to abide by certain policies or else be prohibited from doing business in Mexico? Actually, I don't understand how such a situation has been ignored and permitted to worsen in this way.

I was astounded myself and look at the immigration problem through different eyes. Between the American and Mexican governments it sure looks like EXPLOTATION of the Mexican people to me.:cool: :eek: :mad:

By the way

I always thought it strange that people would risk their lives to get to America but had no idea it was that bad.:cool:

BTW-I've heard the spanish version of the Star Spangled Banner, its beautiful! But it was pulled from radio stations in Texas because it was said to be inflamatory.:cool: :confused:


I haven't heard it yet. But I'm sure that it probably is inflamatory to certain Americans. Hilary and Bush didn't mind that the anthem was sung in Spanish. To be honest, I just can't imagine citizens of any other country being offended in the same way if their anthem was sung in another language. Sometimes I wonder. About two years ago, prior to an athletic, event an Hispanic woman was about to sing the anthem in English. Before she had even uttered the first note there were hoots, howlings and whistles from the audience.

Well about the only thing I agree, is strong sanctions should be put against the rich mostly Republican employers that hire the illeagal Mexicans in the first place. But I would hardly call Mexico a sister democracy. If Arnold Swarzenegger had migrated to Mexico instead of the US, he could not have run for Governor. If Argentina native Sergio Villanveva, firefighter hero of 9/11 attacks had moved to Tecate instead of New York he would not have been allowed on the force. Even as Mexico presses the US to grant unrestricted citzenship to millions of undocumented Mexican migrants, its officials at time calling US policies "Xenophonic", Mexico places daunting limations on anyone born outside its territory. In the US only two posts- the Presidency and Vice Presidency are reserved for legal naturalized citizens. Foreign born Mexicans can't hold seats in either house of their Congress. They are also banned from state legislatures, the Suprem court and all Governoships. Also Mexico's Constitution reservs
ALL Federal posts, and position in the Military, Merchant Marines for native born Mexicans. Since 2003, it has encouraged cities to ban non-natives from local jobs as Firefighters, Police and Judges. Mexicos foreign-born make up is just 0.5% compaired to 13% in the US. Mexico grants citizenship to about 3000 a year, compaired to 500,000 a year in the US. As far as Mexico being a sister democracy, I think NOT!! I also feel for the tens of thousands of LAW abiding Mexicans who followed procedure (LAW) waited in line, who are now citizens, it is a slap in the face. My stepfather is one of them and he agrees with me. And as for politicians to starv and work for little or no wages, give me a break. There are so many other countrys in South Africa, North Korea, China, Ukraine, Poland, Russia, that are just as worse off as Mexico. But because they are a boarder country, and having been breaking the LAW froever, we should overlook that. This one issue, people being here illegal is tearing this country apart. Irony, if the illegal people were not here, there would not be a issue.

I believe in the law the same as you do,and I feel for all the poor ,oppressed people of the world but its very hard to see poor people trying to eek out a living and that law that is supposed to protect you is putting you behind the eight ball. Since we now are seeing that its not the people but the policies that are the real issue the solution is clear-change the policies and get rid of those who use the LAW to enrich themselves at the expense of the poor. Those so-called illegals are running from policies they cannot fight and deserve the help of all of us.:cool:

I guess the first step would be to stop blaming people for the things that they do because they are hungry and desperate!:cool:

Well about the only thing I agree, is strong sanctions should be put against the rich mostly Republican employers that hire the illeagal Mexicans in the first place. But I would hardly call Mexico a sister democracy. If Arnold Swarzenegger had migrated to Mexico instead of the US, he could not have run for Governor. If Argentina native Sergio Villanveva, firefighter hero of 9/11 attacks had moved to Tecate instead of New York he would not have been allowed on the force. Even as Mexico presses the US to grant unrestricted citzenship to millions of undocumented Mexican migrants, its officals at time calling US policies "Xenophonic", Mexico places daunting limations on anyone born outside its territory. In the US only two posts- the Presidency and Vice Presidency are reserved for legal naturalized citizens. Foreign born Mexicans can't hold seats in either house of their Congress. They are also banned from state legislatures, the Suprem court and all Governoships. Also Mexico's Constitution reservs
ALL Federal posts, and position in the Military, Merchant Marines for native born Mexicans. Since 2003, it has encouraged cities to ban non-natives from local jobs as Firefighters, Police and Judges. Mexicos foreign-born make up is just 0.5% compaired to 13% in the US. Mexico grants citizenship to about 3000 a year, compaired to 500,000 a year in the US. As far as Mexico being a sister democracy, I think NOT!!! I also feel for the tens of thousands of LAW abiding Mexicans who followed procedure (LAW) waited in line, who are now citizens, it is a slap in the face. My stepfather is one of them and he agrees with me. And as for politicans to starv and work for little or no wages, give me a break. There are so many other countrys in South Africa, North Korea, China, Ukraine, Poland, Russia, that are just as worse off as Mexico. But because they are a boarder country, and having been breaking the LAW froever, we should overlook that. This one issue, people being here illegal is tearing this country apart. Irony, if the illegal people were not here, there would not be a issue.

By sister democracy I didn't mean identical democracy since democracies vary in detail.
England is not an exact duplicate of our democracy either yet it's a democracy nevertheless. Any democracy's foreign policy, naturalization systems, and social institutions are irrelevant to its democratic status as long as they don't deprive the citizens of their vote.

Ancient Greek city states practiced a democracy where only men who owned land or a home could vote. Yet they were democracies. In fact, the United States was a men-only voting democracy for some time and women had to struggle to gain suffrage. Would you have accused America of not being a democracy because it didn't allow its women to vote? Ask any history college professor and he will tell you that America has always been a democracy. So why not grant Mexico and all the other Hispanic democracies you might be excluding the same leniency?

Women's Suffrage. Harry Osborn, Two More Bright Spots on the Map, Maryland Suffrage News (14th November, 1914)... The struggle for women's suffrage in America began in the 1820s... In the United States the stoutest enemy of the movement acknowledges that woman suffrage is ultimately inevitable...
Women's Suffrage (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAsuffrage.htm)


Merriam Webster's Dictionary

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'mä-kr&-se
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek demokratia, from demos + -kratia -cracy
1 a : government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

Your step father feels that because he had to wait everyone should be made to wait regardless of the differences in circumstances? That's called deontological or rule thinking and its inflexibility in the face of the need for
Adjustments can lead one to commit injustices.

We are in favor of what?
There you go again Jimmy! No one is suggesting that illegality be ignored or encouraged. What's being suggested is that it be remedied and that part oi the remedy be the guest worker program which permits the government to keep track of the workers and a naturalization for those who deserve it due to the long years they have spent here with the full cooperation of our business owners who needed the cheap labor, and with the tacit cooperation of our federal government which conveniently turned its face the other way as all this was going on.

Tearing the country apart? That's an unfounded fear due to a perceived threat that only exists in the minds of those who fear the country is being torn apart. To propagate such a fear by repetition in direct opposition to what the president tells you to do is to foment the very social instability that those who spread the concept claim they want to avoid. Ever hear of a self- fulfilling prophecy?

Might be the answer?

Dig a moat the length of the Mexican border.
Use the dirt from the moat to raise the levies in New Orleans.
Put the Florida alligators in the moat.

Any other problems you want me to solve?

Might be the answer?

Dig a moat the length of the Mexican border.
Use the dirt from the moat to raise the levies in New Orleans.
Put the Florida alligators in the moat.

Any other problems you want me to solve?
Please run for President!! Straight common sense, WOW!! Solved 3 problems at 1 time.

Hahahah... funny one magprob
I wish the peepole in the congress had brains like u. at least it would be funny.

I was going to ask you fr a solution on global warming. But nervermind, the congress thinks we can still abuse the planet.

Illegal immigrants.Umm... Who are the lawmakers? Human beens, and human beens make mistake. They say something is illegal because they believe it that way, not because it is. I don't like people crossing the border illegally, and something needs to be done to stop that. However, deportation is not the answer because that would be the destruction of many families, kids don't have to pay for these things. They would be harm psychologically, and that is not good since they are going to be part of the future of this country because they are Americans. Moreover, not all the illegal immigrants are poor because many overstay their visa, and to get a visa to come here is not easy and cheap. Education, and the American dream is what they want. Sometimes,the country from where they come from is the reason.This situation is illegal because that is the law, but these people make mistakes as human beens such as lawmakers make.We need to find the solution to these situations not to find guilty people. These undocumented alliens are not criminal unless they have committed a crime. Being illegal is not a crime.
That is my opinion.

Illegal immigrants.Umm...Who are the lawmakers? human beens, and human beens make mistake. They say something is illegal because they believe it that way, not because it is. I don't like people crossing the border illegally, and something needs to be done to stop that. However, deportation is not the answer because that would be the destruction of many families, kids don't have to pay for these things. They would be harm psychologically, and that is not good since they are going to be part of the future of this country because they are Americans. Moreover, not all the illegal immigrants are poor because many overstay their visa, and to get a visa to come here is not easy and cheap. Education, and the American dream is what they want. Sometimes,the country from where they come from is the reason.This situation is illegal because that is the law, but these people make mistakes as human beens such as lawmakers make.We need to find the solution to these situations not to find guilty people. These undocumented alliens are not criminal unless they have committed a crime. Being illegal is not a crime.
That is my opinion.
Hmmm, being illegal is legal, or not a crime. Sounds like a Bush language stumble speech. They broke the law when they came here illegal. Does anybody think of the criminal element coming across the boarder ? Gun's, Gang's, Organized Crime. The affect 1 kilo of cocaine cooked into crack. Just how many lives are touched, families torn apart. Kid's dying. Ok most come for the American dream. But everyday MANY come for another kind of American dream. To profit at American's suffering!! If they are here illeagal, just cut of ALL social services at once. See how many go home. But that's just my opinion. With a lot of fact.

U know rublue I wish people. Had the ability to speak like you when the native americans had the uninvited guests come over in THEIR land. You think the american people are not getting profits at american's suffering or for that matter some other countries' suffering now! 'to profit at american's suffering!' that's BS.

But I do feel that there should be some security measure along the border (I doubt if a fence would work) because we know there are lot of people who come here breaking the LAW or they are illegal. For those who are here, again there are illegal immgrants who work their a** off to make their living but there are others who are screw*** around. It's hard to pick one from the other. It may be not nice for them personally or for family but once you break the law, that calls for some actions right there.

But that doesn't have to mean US workforce is against mexicans. This is a point where we clean the system and allow renewed opportunities to immigrants but with effective measures.

But face it... we have different backgrounds... Any immigrant coming to America had their dreams and they made it true. It shaped America and here we are today debating again for what made us and America. We are facing this issue because of our inability to forsee such things, isn't that part of our fault too now?
O well.
Peace fellows!

I agree about the Native American Indian. If you would go back & read all the posts, you would see. And I think we all agree this is one big mess, with no easy answer. People are going to get hurt one way or another. Again I feel, if the law's we have in place would have been enforced over the past years, this huge mess would not be taking place. God help America!! God save our Government!!

Hey guys.. here is some wisdom right here. It's somewhat funny but goes along with the entire thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM&dpos=2

Feel free to pass it along yr friends in the congress..
Peace!

I agree about the Native American Indian. If you would go back & read all the posts, you would see. And I think we all agree this is one big mess, with no easy answer. Peolpe are going to get hurt one way or another. Again I feel, if the law's we have in place would have been enforced over the past years, this huge mess would not be taking place. God help America!!!!! God save our Government!!!
Why do I get the impression that the government is the main reason for all this controversy?:cool: :eek:

Just my thoughts. I can HAVE & SPEAK. about them. This America!!!. Why should Mexican people be any different, than any other person wanting to come to the US ? The process of any person wanting to come to the US should be the same for ALL!!! A person from Europe, such as Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Go through a very strict process even to visit here. Example. Even if a WEALTHY person from the Ukraine who wants to see sites like Disney Land, Hollywood etc. Many detailed documents must be completed and viewed by the American consulate in their country. Also a in person interview. They must show cause and reason why they would want to return to their homeland. Such as own a business, family they support. Also meet income requirements. Then if all is ok, they MIGHT get a visa to come here. Even so, it could be a year or longer before they get the visa. I know that many of the thousands of Mexican people who cross or boarder illegal everyday are good God fearing people who want to better their life. But reality dictates a large % of these people are involved in Drug, Weapons, Gang related issues. Also reality is many of the illegal Mexicans who are here already, tax the medical & welfare system. Meaning less for the Real Americans who are native or here legal. There are some issues that just piss me off. I live in central California where English is pretty much a second language. I might be more supportive of their cause if they did not wave the Mexican Flag, wanting to be Americans. I also do not understand our National Anthem words to be changed for their cause. It has been many years since I have studied about our fight for independence from England 200+ years ago. But I do not recall any Mexicans being there. My stepfather was a Mexican. Even way back in the 70's he did not like term Mexican American. He said that he was a American who just happened to be a Mexican. Amen to that!!! I do not feel we need for Congress to make new laws, costing American Tax Payers MILLIONS of dollars. We just need to enforce the laws we have. Therefore ANYBODY from Mexico or Tim Buck Two, who are here illeagle should be ARRESTED & DEPORTED YESTERDAY!!!!! But that's just me. :)


First, I think everyone should live in their own country, that includes Americans. This way the sense of foreigners taking liberties, such as yapping in their own language to the annyoance of the natives, in a land that isn't theirs or shouldn't be theirs wouldn't exist. Should Mexicans stay in Mexico? That would be the ideal both for Mexicans who really don't want to be here and wish that they weren't forced to leave their country and come here and for the Americans, such as you, who don't want them here.


Second, there is a reason why the present administration isn't leveling the gun on these illegals as you suggest it do. If the government could it would but since it can't it doesn't. Why? For the reasons already explained in the media and with which you should be familiar before criticizing the government.

Third, it's OK to disagree with the illegal immigrant presence since everyone has a right to an opinion. But it is not OK to create strawman arguments such as that they are demanding that everyone sing the anthem in Spanish when such a demand or even suggestion has never been made and their simply singing it in their own language in an effort to show worried Americans such as you that they too can be good citizens, doesn't constitute a demand. So the accusation is actually baseless and because of it comes across as inflammatory.

Fourth, the government has known for decades that this situation was developing. This is not something that appeared overnight out of the clear blue sky. But since there was profit being made it turned its attention to other things it considered more important until now. If indeed it had wanted to stop the immigration flow it could have easily done so long ago. Russia did it in Berlin Germany and only the removal of the wall allowed the flow to begin again after communism fell. So a similar wall could have been erected long ago. Yet, our government chose not to do this.

Fifth, your argument that Mexicans did not participate in the American Revolutionary War for indepenence from England is untrue. Under Spain Puerto Ricans, Mexicans and other Hispanics who were part of the Spanish colonial Army took part. In any case, your premise for citizenship is faulty since if you use it you would have to disqualify all those minorities, such as the Italians and the Irish, Jews, Russians, and so on whose ancestors didn't participate in the Revelutionary War because, unlike the Hispanics, who were here in what is now the USA even before the English founded the thirteen colonies,their ancestors arrived in this continent AFTER that war ended. The vast majority who did participate as part of the thirteen colony rebellion were of English descent. Two of the three governments which helped the thirteen colonies gain their Independence were France and Spain. So doing a little reading before stating something as fact prevents us from writing our own version of history.

Excerpt:

Part 2: Bernardo Galvez Drives the British from the South


By Judge Edward F. Butler, SR.

On 27 August 1779 Galvez led his army 90 miles up the Mississippi to Ft. Bute at Manchac (in current Louisiana). He started with a force of 667 men, which included 170 veteran soldiers; 330 recruits newly arrived from Mexico and the Canary Islands, and an assortment of Cubans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, militiamen, free Blacks and Mulattoes, and 7 American volunteers, including Oliver Pollock. Part of the force traveled in a flotilla of four boats, under the command of Juan Alvarez, while the main body went by land.
Along the way Galvez enlisted an additional 600 men from the German and Acadian coasts and 160 Indians. When he finally arrived to confront the British, his army consisted of 1,427 men. They attacked and seized Manchac on 7 September, taking 20 prisoners. Nearby developed the town of Galveztown, which was later settled by the Canary Islanders. [Note: Many Canary Islanders settled in and around San Antonio.]

OFFICIAL THANKS TO SPAIN FROM THE UNITED STATES

On 8 November 1779 Thomas Jefferson wrote to General Galvez, expressing his thanks for Spain's assistance to the revolutionary cause. In George Washington's farewell to his officers, he toasted Spain for it's assistance during the revolutionary war. In 1784 the U.S. Congress cited General Galvez and the Spanish government for their aid during the Revolution. Upon his father's death in 1785, Governor Galvez was named Viceroy of New Spain. He died in Mexico City on 30 November 1786 at 40 years of age. Part 3 Bibliography


http://www.sar.org/mxssar/spinvo-2.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardo_de_G%C3%A1lvez

http://www.americanrevolution.org/hispanic.html

BTW
Also, if you take issue with the term Mexican American then you also take issue with the term African American as well--correct? If you do then you would be in the minority since the majority of people in the USA don't mind at all that black Americans call themselves African Americans. In short, it isn't an issue. So if it isn't an issue in relation to African Americans why should it suddenly become an issue with Mexican Americans?

There are so many other countrys in South Africa, North Korea, China, Ukraine, Poland, Russia, that are just as worse off as Mexico. But because they are a boarder country, and having been breaking the LAW froever, we should overlook that. This one issue, people being here illegal is tearing this country apart. Irony, if the illegal people were not here, there would not be a issue.


You keep speaking about the law being broken and asking why should illegal Mexicans be an exception. I ask you who is it that you think is saying that it should be? Pray tell cause try as I might I can't see anyone out there recommending your weird idea-neither, Bush, nor Fox, nor Hispanics Americans, nor even the illegals themselves.

Furthermore, who twisted the government's arm to allow this lawbreaking?
Certainly not the illegals. Politically influential Corporate America out to make a quick buck perhaps?


Christian Viewpoint

But seriously, in God's eyes the earth is everyone's since mankind wasn't created to be fragmented into nations speaking a babble of languages and torn apart by borders.


Genesis 11
1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. KJV


Serious divisions are a consquence of man demanded doing things his own way without God's guidance. In short, to be like God in deciding what is good and what is evil. Results? Look around.

Does God consider it a wrong to cross national borders illegally? The Bible tells us to be law-abiding. So breaking the law by crossing borders illegally is not what a Christian is expected to do. However, during the holocaust when crossing borders that way meant fleeing for your life from an unjust government out to obliterate you, it wasn't wrong.
Perhaps these Mexicans feel more or less the same way about their government.

magprob agrees: Very Good, and strong points you bring up. Are you for a Globalist society Starman?


Glad you agree. : )

About my viewpoint, it is based on the scriptures which describe nationalism as a temporary thing which God has permitted in order to allow Satan and man sufficient time to prove their accusations if they can. I don't think my views are globalist since I try to stay as neutral as humanly possible in conflicts between nations. I prefer to place my hope on the promised intervention of God's Kingdom in human affairs and the establishment of a peaceful global society where the earth will return to its paradisiacal condition and mankind to its original physical and mental perfection.


Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. KJV

Where as I understand the frustration over this issue I cannot in good conscious blame mostly innocent people trying to feed families and raise kids for the current debacle along our borders. The real blame fits squarely on the shoulders of the Mexican and US governments under the guise of NAFTA. For the last 30 years American business men have built thousands of plants and factories 50 miles into Mexico along the border (Free trade zone) and exploited the local populations with low wages and long hours and sub-human conditions while they reap billions in PROFITS and pay no tariffs or benefits to the workers. I would run too if I worked for 70 dollars a week and it took 6, 12 hour days to do it in .What are they supposed to do and be honest what would YOU do with conditions such as these. The bad part is you and I only see the illegals who cross the border while your government has done absolutely nothing in the wake of this mass exodus from tyranny and oppression. This is going on all over the world as millions live and die and us fat Americans can only see our own little part of life that they let us have to keep our mouth shut or worse espouse the kind of rhetoric that shifts the blame to people who have no voice to defend themselves. Yep America has screwed everyone again. Are we proud of ourselves yet?:cool: :eek:

Most excellent Starman! I am for a globalist society if, and only if, GOD is in charge of it. Not Dubya Bush, the Rockerfellers, Duponts or anyone else that thinks they know better what I need than I do myself! So bring it on!!

Most excellent Starman! I am for a globalist society if, and only if, GOD is in charge of it. Not Dubya Bush, the Rockerfellers, Duponts or anyone else that thinks they know better what I need than I do myself! So bring it on!!!!



Human rulers have only managed to make a mess of it even to the point where the very ability of the earth to sustain life is threatened. But we are promised that will be remedied soon.

Revelation 11:18 (New King James Version)

18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”


http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKBpQH1E4DUATQtrCqMX;_ylu=X3oDMTBvdmM3bGl xBHBndANhdl93ZWJfcmVzdWx0BHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=12nddqoba/EXP=1149145577/**http%3a//verystrangeissues.blogspot.com/2006/02/sixth-extinction.html


BTW
Thanks for the compliment of excellence. But I prefer to be called either brother, in a spiritual senes, or just plain Starman. . : )

Yes there are other countries that also want to be able to come into The US but I see it as Mexicans are putting in a lot of effort to get here. I believe that once they are here they should be treated as human beings. I know this man who is here illegally but has been here for 10 years without any problems... he pays bills has a family and has a good job I don't see why he wouldn't be considered a citizen

We carry the flag to represent where we are coming from. We also carry the State flag as well but nobody points that out right?? Yea we would be glad to represent the land we are on but we must not forget where we come from and what are people are going through... you know what I mean??