(From the NJB) Matthew 24:42. `So stay awake, because you do not know the day when your master is coming.
43. You may be quite sure of this, that if the householder had known at what time of the night the burglar would come, he would have stayed awake and would not have allowed anyone to break through the wall of his house.
44. Therefore, you too must stand ready because the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45. `Who, then, is the wise and trustworthy servant whom the master placed over his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46. Blessed that servant if his master's arrival finds him doing exactly that.
47. In truth I tell you, he will put him in charge of everything he owns.
48. But if the servant is dishonest and says to himself, `My master is taking his time,'
49. And sets about beating his fellow-servants and eating and drinking with drunkards,
50. His master will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know.
51. The master will cut him off and send him to the same fate as the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth."
Because of the many last days books and movie and the many preachers who claim that the end is coming soon, more people are EXPECTING that to happen than ever before in history.
The bible says in several places that Jesus will return when we least expect Him.
That is in direct conflict with the rapture' bogus theology.
So why do so many believe it when the bible says otherwise?
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

(From the NJB) Matthew 24:42.
So why do so many believe it when the bible says otherwise?
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Because as it is also written you can be deceived by satan, and satan has children that follow him.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto satan, Whence comest thou? Then satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Mark 14:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Remember and Know the Parable of the Fig Tree

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Arcura, What are you talking about?

Dear Fred

I assume your header meant to say "Why do so many believe in nature when the bible says otherwise?"

That suggestion is not going on all fours : one does not believe in nature.
One considers all the data and Objective Supporting Evidence for that, and draws a conclusion from the facts provided.

One can ONLY BELIEVE in religious claims and suggestions, as religion is entirely based on claims without even the slightest form of OSE. Every conclusion therefore has to be based on BELIEF.

The Bible has to be read within the context of 2000 years+ of hindsight. Knowledge of nature, physics, and science in general were at a low level. The Bible was written by - I assume again - goodwilling human beings, and therefore reflects the knowledge of that time, i.e. rather uneducated in all these mentioned subjects, and so the Bible itself must be seen in that light.

So that the Bible says otherwise to what we know today is rather logical and self-evident, and it are not the facts of nature that have to be seen in the light of what the Bible states. The MESSAGE of the Bible is important, not what is in Book X on page Y, line Z.

Have a nice day, Fred !

:>)

.

I think it's meant to read rapture Crede.

Sorry about the typo.
I was talking about the RAPTURE.
It is the so-called coming soon of Christ.
Because so many expect it soon what the bible says causes me to believe that the return of Christ is a long way into the future when far fewer people expect His return.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcira)

What is it that the Bible says that makes you think it is a long way away?

maje3 : don't you think NEVER is a long time ?

:>)

Where does it say He is never coming back?

OH Maje, DON'T get started with Crede, you'll get sucked into the vortex too! ;)

I am intrigued to know what Fred is talking about. But thanks for the warning.

I am intrigued to know what Fred is talking about. But thanx for the warning.
I think Fred is warning believers in the rapture that their idea of "soon" may not be as soon as what they think soon is. Jesus will return when He returns, and not necessarily soon.

(Did that help?)

Wondergirl,
You are right.
Jesus is coming soon compared to when he ascended 2000 years ago.
But the soon the rapture believers speak of is not "soon" as mean with "the near future"
When the great many people stop expecting him that will mean that His return will truly be sooner.
He will come as a thief in the night might.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl,
You are right.
Jesus is coming soon compared to when he ascended 2000 years ago.
But the soon the the rapture believers speak of is not "soon" as mean with "the near future"
When the great many people stop expecting him that will mean that His return will truly be sooner.
He will come as a thief in the night might.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I hope it's soon.

I hope it's soon.
I respect other peoples beliefs, but I do not understand statements like that.
You can only be sure of one life : the one here on earth. All formats of afterlife are religion based and subject to certain dogmatic conditions.

If a Christian tells me that IF the rapture happens, he/she will be glad with that, I can understand that.
But if a Christian tells me that he/she hopes the rapture is soon, I start questioning their ability to think realistic and their capacity to think well-considered.

Is our function in life only to survive death, or to ensure a future generation coming to full development? What about the lack of future for your children and grand children?

Life is short enough, and HOPING that it ends soon seems more the thoughts of someone with a lacking wish to live his/her life to the fullest. After all : that is what the rapture is about : the ending of earthly life, and moving to heaven for those who fulfill the criteria.

Personally I feel great with the one and only life that is given to all of us : the one here on earth. And I'll take it from there, "come Hell or High Water" (how suitable and applying in this respect !)

:>)

.

I respect other peoples beliefs, but I do not understand statements like that.
You can only be sure of one life : the one here on earth. All formats of afterlife are religion based and subject to certain dogmatic conditions.

If a Christian tells me that IF the rapture happens, he/she will be glad with that, I can understand that.
But if a Christian tells me that he/she hopes the rapture is soon, I start questioning their ability to think realistic and their capacity to think well-considered.

Is our function in life only to survive death, or to ensure a future generation coming to full development? What about the lack of future for your children and grand children?

Life is short enough, and HOPING that it ends soon seems more the thoughts of someone with a lacking wish to live his/her life to the fullest. Afterall : that is what the rapture is about : the ending of earthly life, and moving to heaven for those who fullfill the criteria.

Personally I feel great with the one and only life that is given to all of us : the one here on earth. And I'll take it from there, "come Hell or High Water" (how suitable and applying in this respect !)

:>)

.

But surely this is one of the psychological benefits of religion, to quench the fear of death? It seems to do that fairly well, if only by introducing fairytale in its place.

Jesus coming as a thief in the night is referring to him coming when we least expect it so we should always be ready. That is why we are always expecting it. And the Bible is clear about the signs that will precede His coming. And several of them have come to pass, so yes I do think it is in the near future. Wondergirl, I hope it is soon too, we live in a messed up world and it is only getting worse. And for those of us who do believe in the rapture, it is going to be a glorious day. For those who don't, well...

Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I hope it's soon.

I respect other peoples beliefs, but I do not understand statements like that.
I don't believe in the rapture. I was just hoping that, if there will be one, it will be soon so as to get on to the next adventure.

That's sad Wondergirl - this life isn't that bad for many of us, we're actually enjoying ourselves. :)
I kind of find it shocking that the Parenting expert wants the world to end soon. How does that play into helping raise the next generation?

That's sad Wondergirl - this life isn't that bad for many of us, we're actually enjoying ourselves. :)
I kind of find it shocking that the Parenting expert wants the world to end soon. How does that play into helping raise the next generation?
"Soon" is relative, and I was speaking only of myself. As for my "personal rapture," it will be sooner rather than later.

Or it could be in 23 days. No one knows.

Or it could be in 23 days. No one knows.
NK, you're too quick for me. I was still editing my response when you posted this.

"personal rapture"? We all die, that's the natural process.

Poor guy writes a question and the "welcomed" few come and turn it into something totally different. I do not do this often or enjoy doing it but seriously, F-OFF. I'm sick and tired of every question about the Bible being re-routed into a debate about the existence of God.

This Credefljd just hears what he wants to. Sure, sure you thought he meant nature did you? I think anyone could tell he meant rapture, unless you are as clueless as to the contents of the Bible as it seems you are. I submit you knew EXACTLY what he meant but wrote nature so you can comment about something. PLEASE, do not respond and overrun this thread with you usual ramblings. If you do respond I would ask that you please NEVER use the phrase OSE when speaking to me, if I hear it again I'll hurl.

To Acura, many believe the rapture is a certain date at a certain time for all who happen to be alive on the earth. I for one hold the belief that the rapture is when we die individually. Jesus returning is Jesus returning to our lives, the day of Judgement is when we die. My day of judgement is when I pass away, I'll not know the time or place and in many ways I doubt I will expect it.

Hope this makes sense.

Sorry if I offended you Crede, I just don't think this gentleman's question should be a basis to start the usual back and forth between the usual members that engage in the usual back and forth so often seen in religious discussion.

"personal rapture"? We all die, that's the natural process.
Yup, that'll be it for me.

That's sad Wondergirl - this life isn't that bad for many of us, we're actually enjoying ourselves. :)
I kind of find it shocking that the Parenting expert wants the world to end soon. How does that play into helping raise the next generation?

Why do so many people think that the "rapture" is the same thing as the end of the world? No Bible believer that I have ever met thinks that. The return of Jesus FOR the Church is only the end of an age or era. And as to how many are expecting that to take place, there may not be as many as Arcura thinks. Many so-called evangelicals no longer believe it will happen. That may be the "falling away" that Paul wrote about.

Poor guy writes a question ...
Fred "Arcura" Brown is not a "poor guy" at all. I know Fred already for many years, and in a way I count him as my friend. Fred posted a new topic on the Religious DISCUSSIONS board, and I responded to that with my comment.
Please note that this is NOT the Q&A section of AMHD.


Sure, sure you thought he meant nature did you?
Yes I did. Any OSE against that, BMI?


I submit you knew EXACTLY what he meant but wrote nature so you can comment about something
NoI did not. Any OSE against that, BMI?


If you do respond I would ask that you please NEVER use the phrase OSE when speaking to me, if I hear it again I'll hurl.
You do whatever you want, but a request for OSE is not against the board rules.


Sorry if I offended you Crede...
You have to come from better breeding to do that, BMI.


I just don't think this gentleman's question should be a basis to start the usual back and forth between the usual members that engage in the usual back and forth so often seen in religious discussion.
But that is precisely the general idea of a discussions board, BMI.
If you have any problems with that, just stay on the Q&A section.

:>)

.

maje3,
Yes, you are right several of the signs of Jesus return have come to pass but the one that I fear is a long time in the future is the building of the third temple of Yahweh on Temple Mount.
Although funds have been collected to help build that for several years, the work to start building it is a long time in the future, I fear.
It is true that the temple mount belongs to Israel, but early on after the war on independence Israel agreed to let Moslems occupy the Mount.
They are not about to relinquish it back to Israel soon.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Yes, you are right several of the signs of Jesus return have come to pass but the one that I fear is a long time in the future is the building of the third temple of Yahweh on Temple Mount
Dear Fred : which are precisely the remaining signs that you think still have to occur first before rapture can take place, and why is that?

Peace and kindness to you too, Fred !

:>)

.

Our Lord is against rapture doctrine Ezekiel tells you He was aware of this doctrine being put forth by pillars = (those who believe their own doctrine and attempt to stand above God and what He has fore told as Truth) Hunting the souls to make them think they will fly...

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make [them] fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, [even] the souls that ye hunt to make [them] fly. KJV

Read the Truth of how Christ will return...

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him, That ye be [not soon shaken in mind,] or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, [B]as that the day of Christ is at hand.KJV

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and [exalteth himself above all that is called God,] or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. KJV

{{{{son of perdition is satan}}}}


2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? JKV

Continue to read 2 Thessalonians for what is to come.. and Note

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 [Even Him], whose coming is after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the Truth, that they might be saved.

God does allow the Free Will choice of believing what you have chosen to believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Fellowship in The Spirit of Truth and walk in the light of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2: 13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

So those Left Behind books are based on a lie?

Crede - lol... better breeding... what a tool!

Okay here is what I believe.

I believe that the Bible teaches that while we can not know the day or the hour we can know the time and 'season' that we will know when we are in the end times if we line it up with 1948 and current events as shown in the Bible.

I also believe many Christians are deceived in believing in a pre trib rapture when a rapture more would likely take place mid trib after the anti-christ and some other events but before the fourth bowl in Revelations 16:8 & 9 where God pours out his wrath with serious plagues.

Okay here is what I believe.

I believe that the Bible teaches that while we can not know the day or the hour we can know the time and 'season' that we will know when we are in the end times if we line it up with 1948 and current events as shown in the Bible.

I also believe many Christians are decieved in believing in a pre trib rapture when a rapture more would likely take place mid trib after the anti-christ and some other events but before the fourth bowl in Revelations 16:8 & 9 where God pours out his wrath with serious plagues.

To realize what is written in what was posted of #30 really helps spell things out for what was fore told by Christ when He was here. Read the Truth of how Christ will return...2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be [not soon shaken in mind,] or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.KJV

Jesus gave ONE prerequisite for His return. His gospel will be preached for a witness to all the world, then the church age will end. This is being accomplished with many souls being added to the Kingdom of God daily, especially in nations other than the US. I know of just one group that began in 1992 that is within about 60 of being in every nation currently.

His gospel will be preached for a witness to all the world, then the church age will end.
In that case it will still take a long time - even if the dogmatic part of that were true.
All the world means every human being. Not every country.

And theists themselves make that a rather impossible occurrence, with their mutual intolerance of other views...

:>)

.

Interesting question
Who has never ever heard anything whatsoever about God or Jesus in today's times?

I am sure that Galveston1 stated that :

"His gospel will be preached for a witness to all the world, then the church age will end".

Now for me this is easy to say after living near 30 years in the tropics, but the living conditions in the tropics are surely different to those across the big pond.
And many people have indeed never heard of (with all respect) some Christian God and some Jesus. And even if they had heard about these two, that is not the same as being preached for a witness.

So either there is still a lot to do for Christian mission workers, or the idea of rapture has either to be dropped, or updated to a more realistic level.

:>)

.

Actually this is exactly what it says
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Now does that mean every individual will personally be preached to
Or does it mean that they will have heard of God/Jesus via missionaries, Billy Graham, Televangistists, reading something on the internet,.

Still would be interesting to know who and where have never heard of Christianity in some way.

Nohelp4u : I suggest you start travelling than...

:>)

.

A minister I know says "all nations" means "all people groups."

Wasn't there a tribe recently discovered in SA in the Amazon forests? I wonder how many other "people groups" are still undiscovered.

Nohelp4u : I suggest you start travelling than ....

:>)

.


Okay I would love to travel more than anything and I suppose I should start where Wonder girl said.

okay I would love to travel more than anything and I suppose I should start where Wonder girl said.
May I come along? I have two sons who will serve as carriers.

I'd love to just come and get me and we'll go!
My son would probably like to go too!

I'd love to just come and get me and we'll go!
My son would probably like to go too!
Who else would like to go, do you think? Alty, Starby, Sneezy? (Yes, definitely Sneezy. It would be good to have a medical person with us.) Should I pack sunscreen? We'll be under all those leafy branches.

Just to stay with the OP, maybe the rapture will happen while we're there.

We taking Alty to ward off the Amazon creatures? :D I know with that whip of hers she would be the best one for that.
Sneezy might be too allergic!

We taking Alty to ward off the Amazon creatures? :D I know with that whip of hers she would be the best one for that.
Sneezy might be too allergic!
Yes, definitely Alty!

I am a preacher's kid and former Christian school teacher. Do you or Alty have any interest in preaching? We could do some evangelical work while we're there (to help the End Times arrive faster). Maybe Pres. Bush would help us out financially--it'll be a faith-based initiative.

I would love to know how to get backing to do something like that.

I would love to travel more than anything and I suppose I should start where Wonder girl said.

I'd love to just come and get me and we'll go! My son would probably like to go too!

I would love to know how to get backing to do something like that.
WHY ??? Just go ! Work locally where ever you go, to support yourself.
Did Jesus got any "backing" on his travels?

The reality is almost certain that you will never go : you are enslaved by that dream, that "American dream". By that insane demand for security in all ways of life, and that ridiculous need for more, more, and still more.

I went for an almost 30 years stay in the tropics, and - if I had the chance - I would do it again. If you want to fulfill your dreams, you must be willing to take risks.

Can you, will you, or is it all just empty talk ?

You COULD make a difference...

:>)

.

Traveling the world is the best you can do to open your eyes.

WHY ??? Just go ! Work locally where ever you go, to support yourself.
Did Jesus got any "backing" on his travels?

The reality is almost certain that you will never go : you are enslaved by that dream, that "American dream". By that insane demand for security in all ways of life, and that ridiculous need for more, more, and still more.

I went for an almost 30 years stay in the tropics, and - if I had the chance - I would do it again. If you want to fulfill your dreams, you must be willing to take risks.

Can you, will you, or is it all just empty talk ?

You COULD make a difference .................

:>)

.

In Jesus day all it took to get anywhere was a donkey.
Now it takes money, transportation and gas to get anywhere. I have NONE of those!

You COULD make a difference .................
And I am making a difference, right where I live. I personally don't have 30 years left in this life to spend traveling to other countries to help people. Maybe in the next lifetime... Meanwhile, I do what I can right now, right here. You all can too.

Why 30 years? One year devoted to helping is more than what most people do - go for it!

Unfortunately the people that I help abuse what they do have.
Like you take them to get energy assistance so they can get their utilities turned on for the winter. Their kids leave all the upstairs windows open. The heat goes out the window.
You take them for diapers they cried they needed and all they buy is a carton of cigarettes.
You give them furniture they have it destroyed and in the trash in less than a month.
They buy beer and drugs with their food stamps and then cry their kids are starving.

Unfortunately the people that I help abuse what they do have.
Like you take them to get energy assistance so they can get their utilities turned on for the winter. Their kids leave all the upstairs windows open. The heat goes out the window.
You take them for diapers they cried they needed and all they buy is a carton of cigarettes.
You give them furniture they have it destroyed and in the trash in less than a month.
They buy beer and drugs with their food stamps and then cry their kids are starving.
I know what you're sayin' -- even teaching them "to fish" doesn't always work. But the helping and the giving are positives for YOU more than it is for them.

It can also end up just the opposite. My church sponsored a Vietnamese refugee family back in the early '70s. We church members all pulled together for this family to find a house to rent, we painted and recarpeted it, we filled the kitchen with canned goods and the refrigerator with fresh produce and milk and eggs, we bought a used car, we sorted donated clothing. The family was exceedingly grateful and invited small groups over to help them practice English and even for dinner. The family joined the church and enrolled their children in our parochial school where they did well and eventually went on to successful careers. The parents worked hard too and finally were able to fulfill their American dream of owning what turned out to be a very successful Vietnamese restaurant. Some church members groaned, "How dare they make more money than we do!"

Fred, back to the OP. Are you saying that you don't think there will be a rapture, or that there will be one, but not for a long time?

Fred, back to the OP. Are you saying that you don't think there will be a rapture, or that there will be one, but not for a long time?

His question was
Why do so many believe in the rature when the bible says otherwise? so it sounds like he doesn't believe in one. I'm sure Fred will be along later to answer you himself.

Galveston1
I do not believe in the rapture as the Last Days books theorize it.
I do not believe in a separate secret return of Christ, I believe that there will be only one return and the world will see it happen not just some people taken and the rest left for the great tribulations.
Those books and the believers of the statements in them are predicting a very soon return of Jesus and there are millions of such believers expecting that; more so now than ever before.
That alone tells me it is far in the future.
Also there are events prophesied that have yet to be fulfilled.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Dear Fred

I wonder why all these books, these statements, these expectations, and all that interest in the rapture is primarily originating from the US. I am well informed of what happens here in Europe in the religious field, but here? Nada, niente, nothing, nichts,!

What makes the US population so interested in that part of religion? Is it perhaps that they know they are one of the worlds worst abusers of natures richness and human resources - so caused by guilt? Or are they as nation extremely gullible to religion : why? Or is it the US capitalistic system that explores and misuses Christianity for it's last available penny in their quest for financial richness?

Peace and kindness,

John

:>)

.

John,
Your hate for the USA is showing.
Fred

Your hate for the USA is showing
What hate Fred? Just for bringing up that I wonder why all these books, these statements, these expectations, and all that interest in the rapture is primarily originating in/from the US?
I am well informed of what happens here in Europe in the religious field, but here? Nada, niente, nothing, nichts : hardly any interest here in that rapture at all!!

So what makes the US population so interested in that part of the Christian religion? Is it perhaps that they know they are one of the worlds worst abusers of natures richness and human resources - so is it caused by guilt? Or are they as nation extremely gullible to religion? If so : why? Or is it the US capitalistic system that explores and misuses Christianity and Christians for the last available penny in the quest for financial richness?

Peace and kindness, Fred

John

Fred, I think you are missing something. I know you accept Paul's writings so consider this.
1Thes 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

Notice that "the dead in Christ shall rise first:" This is not a complete resurrection, because we see here:
Rev 20:5
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)

Plainly 2 different resurrections.

Then, "we which are alive--" telling us two things. "We" indicating those hearing Paul, not the general population, and also that Paul expected it to occur in his own lifetime. He later realized that it would not be in that time frame, but his first opinion was that it would be.

Whether it is secret or not is not stated, as far as I know, but if you were not present with one caught up, you might not see or hear anything at this event. There is another event:

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

Obviously, the "saints" have to already be with Jesus in order to come with Him when He comes to reign.