Hi,

I have a 1995 ex civic with a motor from a prelude (h22). I went to school Monday and came back heom 4 hours later with no problem and the car was running a1. I parked it in my garage and 2 hours later I tried to start it up but it didn't work. I can't hear the fuel pump when I turn the ignition to on. The motor is cranking but I am not getting gas. Ive tried to check the main relay wiring and the only thing suspicious is when I connect my multimter in the #6 (ignition switch) chamber in the main relay plug and ground it real good. I turn the key to start and I am not getting any voltage.

What I did so far:

-new main
-new fuel pump
-tired another ecu from a friends civic with the same motor

So far nothing is working and I am getting sick of it

Can anyone help me?

. Perform tests, in Sections A and B, below:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/faq-how-troubleshoot-repair-maintain-hondas-46563.html

. Test all under-dash and under-hood fuses with a test light or multimeter:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/faq-how-troubleshoot-repair-maintain-hondas-46563-3.html#post252145

. Clean the main ECM ground (3-wire brass connector) on the thermostat housing.

. Perform K-Test on the ECM, which may be failing.

Well I did the tests... the computer is fine, the main relay is fine, the fuel pump works (I have connected it to the battery) but my problem is that bthe fuel isn't running when I turn the key to on when you see the check engine light for 2 seconds. I can hear all the clicks from the main relay (bought one 2 days ago from honda)

I doubt it could be the ignition switch because the main relay work fine and the computer to. My guess is that I have a loose wire or disconnected wire that doesn't give power to the fuel pump. Any ideas?

If you can hear the fuel pump run, it's likely okay. Have you recently replaced the fuel filter? Check the fuel pressure at the fuel filter.

Did all of the under-dash and under-hood fuses check out okay?
Normally, if the car passes the 3 basic diagnostic tests, you want to focus on the ICM, coil, or distributor housing (failing internal sensors).

No I can't hear the fuel pump running when the ignition is on. That's the problem

-I have fire, my engine was running like a charm before the failure to start
-the motor cranks
-the starter works

I have no pressure what so ever (me and my friend took off the line from the fuel filter tried to start it but I didn't have any pressure)

Could a bad fuel filter cause the fuel pump not to run?

Check the ACG (S) (ALT) fuse in the under-dash fuse box. It's either Fuse No. 24 or Fuse No. 12. Be very thorough in testing fuses with a test light or multimeter.

If you jump main relay terminals 5 and 7, I bet the fuel pump runs great.

If the fuses, ECM, main ECM ground, and main relay are good, then the problem is with the ignition switch. Here's how to check the ignition switch for wear, pitting, or melting:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/faq-how-troubleshoot-repair-maintain-hondas-46563-2.html#post224652

Clean the main ECM ground, on the thermostat housing, and apply dielectric grease.

Real quick... its a tight fit to get there. Any tips? Should I take off the distributor

And its located near the thermostat right? Couple of inches behind it?

"f you jump main relay terminals 5 and 7, I bet the fuel pump runs great." I did try that but I coundlt hear the fuel pump work (can you describe more how to test) I have another fuel pump that isn't in the car... is there a way to test it?

I tried and clean the ground but its strip there... ive move it a little bit forward and backward but the connection seems fine (1. Disconnect main relay connector. Check for continuity between BLK Terminal 2 and body ground. If there isn't continuity, repair an open in BLK wire between the main relay and the main ECM ground, located on the thermostat housing. If there is continuity)

How can the ignition switch be faulty if I never had any problems with it and I can hear all 3 clicks (can it give up so easily... usually when I cranked the motor it didn't take 1 second that she was fired up)

I am about to take it to a mechanic...

Normally, the main ECM ground is 3-wire brass connector, which is connected to the thermostat housing. Is your's like that?

Real quick, did you properly check all fuses?

OK OK... I have a connector with 2 wires (black and green) and a bolt with 4 wires connectected and welded together

Did all fuses, particularly the ACG (S) (ALT) fuse, test okay?

Ye I checked them all one by one and replace those ones even if they were OK... ok can I test the fuel pump (maybe its deffective)

If your fuel pump really is bad, it will be the first one I have ever heard of on a Honda. They are just that reliable.

My gut is that it's a basic electrical problem, before the fuel pump. See if you, in fact, have a fuse in the ACG (S) (ALT) slot--likely Fuse No. 24. I helped a naval aircraft mechanic, Coronado, CA, where someone removed Fuse 24 on his Civic as a practical joke. It kept his car from running for a week. Humor me and make sure there's a fuse in that slot.

The ACG(S)(ALT) fuse controls power to main relay Terminal 5. A problem here could explain why the fuel pump doesn't run when you jump Terminals 5 and 7.

Yep I just checked and there is a 15a fuse and I changed it for a new one... still nothing.

But on the fuse cover it says (ACG (S)) and I have 2 slots for that fuse but one has a fake plastic fuse in it and I did try and put one in.

http://spoon.org/civic/pics/Interior-Fuse-Panel.jpg

The focus has to be on the ACG (S) fuse. I'm concerned it's missing a fuse and you are not getting power to main relay Terminal 5.

With the Supplemental Restraint System, it should be Fuse 24, which is the fuse on the top right of your picture.

Did you test all under-hood fuses? Since you didn't record voltage while testing main relay connector Terminal 6 (Starter Switch), check Fuse No. 31 (15 A) in the under-hood fuse box (controls power to the main relay), and also test the STARTER SIGNAL fuse (7.5 A) in the under-dash fuse box. It appears you have a power issue between the under-hood fuse box and the main relay. If all fuses test okay, examine the ignition switch for wear, pitting, or melting.

Mmm... what fuse are you talking about when you say fuse #31

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/martino291/Automotive/fusebox-hooddiagram.jpg

There should be 4 fuses along the back row of the under-hood fuse box. Fuse No. 31 is the 15 amp fuse on the left. It controls power to the PGM-FI Main Relay.

On your photo, it says 15A ECU.

Just checked it... was working fine

I put a new one in just to be sure... still nothing

Is the 7.5 amp Starter Signal fuse in the under-dash fuse box good?

I always use a test light or multimeter to test power "through the fuse" (both test points), when the ignition is turned to ON. Have you done this?

Yep just changed it and I did checked all fuses with the key turned on and there all OK

Since all fuses test fine, I'm inclined to suspect the ignition switch, since you are not getting power to Terminal 6 of the main relay connector. Still, I don't understand why jumping Terminals 5 and 7 doesn't cause the fuel pump to run, when the ignition switch is turned to ON. It's either the ignition switch, again, or the fuel pump is bad. If it's the fuel pump, it will be the first Honda fuel pump that I've seen be bad.

Fuel pump is fine because I just checked it... I hookep it up to a batterie and it ran fine.

If I change the ignition switch, do I have to get a new key?

One thing I don't understand... why can I hear all 3 clicks if the ignition switch is messed up?

No, you don't need to get a new key at all--just the switch and harness. They normally cost around $65.

I hope your right... ill go to the scrapyard tomorrow and we'll see from there

But I still don't understand how it can be faulty since ALL electrical on the car are working fine (ecu, radio, light etc... )

Don't buy one yet. Check out the old one first:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/faq-how-troubleshoot-repair-maintain-hondas-46563-2.html#post224652

Look for visible signs of wear, pitting, or melting.

Your switch may work on Position II but not when it's turned to START. You just need to check it out first. Other than this, I don't know much else to suggest. It's obvious you have a power issue. The only other option is to start performing continuity checks on the wiring harness.

The ignition switch and harness plugs into the Main Harness and into the under-dash fuse box.

Is your new main relay an exact match to the old one?

No but the one I got at the dealship is the new one... but with a different code

Anyway I've check the ignition switch and everything seems fine... no melting or sign or failure

One my friend who works at honda might come today to check the bloody wiring (he think that the fuel pump isn't getting power)

Wich wire connext the fuel pump to the main relay?

Ill try something tonight... ill just put a brand new wire from the really to the fuel pump but first I need to ned wich connections if the fuel pump in the main relay connector (dont ask me about the colors... I'm color blind)

Terminal 7 goes to the fuel pump.

Is there a way I can check if I get 12 volts to the connector and then check the wire... before I start cutting I want to check everything

OK here are the results... I put the positive behind the connector with the fule pump wire and when I turned the key to on I got my 12 volts with the clicks

But when I want at the end of the fuel pump pulg and did the same test.. I got 0 volts

So should I just trhwo a new wire?

I think you should wait until your Honda friend can look at it for you. What I previously posted would not work, which is why I deleted it.

Disconnect the main relay connector.

1. Check for continuity between connector terminal 2 and body ground. If none, repair an open in the wire between the main relay and the main relay ground at the thermostat housing.

2. What voltage do you get when you measure the voltage between connector terminal 1 and body ground? If none, repair an open in the wire between the main relay and the ECU (15 A) fuse.

I'm still convinced you have a problem getting battery voltage to the main relay.

I get 12-13 volts

That's good. Check for continuity between connector terminal 2 and body ground. If none, repair an open in the wire between the main relay and the main relay ground at the thermostat housing.

OK my friend

I just took a ing long wire and hooked it up behind terminal 7 and took off the connector of the pump and just plug it straight up to the pump... I turned the key to on AND BANG FUEL PUMP RUNS FINE

Si what ill do... ill just strip the wire behind both connector and just fuse the new wire to the old one and put electrical tape

What you think

I'm not sure I exactly follow what you did. I defer to your judgement.

I just bypassed the normal wire

If you are basically just replacing a bad wire with a new one, I have no problem with it. Just make sure the relay still works the way it was originally designed. There are safety components to it.

Well my friend... if I ever have any more problems ill get back to you... youve been really helpful and now my car start no problemo. Just like before

Id like to talk you for the time you gave me AND my car (since she is my beauty)

Good job!

Thought you would find this of interest. Wrote this up, after our efforts--thanks for the inspiration. It should make life easier for others.

Fuel System Troubleshooting

This is a two-part problem: 1) Determine if the fuel pump works, and 2) Determine why the PGM-FI Main Relay doesn't work properly.

If you don't hear the fuel pump run, when the ignition switch is turned to ON (Position II):

Problem 1: Determine if the fuel pump works.

1. Disconnect the main relay from the main relay connector. Jump main relay connector Terminals 5 and 7, turn the ignition switch to ON, and listen for the fuel pump in the gas tank. If you can hear the fuel pump run, which is usually the case, it is likely good and you should proceed to Problem 2. If it doesn't run, go to Step 2.

2. Turn the ignition switch ON. Measure voltage between main relay connector Terminal 5 and ground. If there's not battery voltage, test/replace the ACG (ALT) (S) (15 A) fuse in the under-dash fuse/relay box. If necessary, repair an open in the wiring between the main relay and the ACG (ALT) (S) fuse. Verify that you now have battery voltage to Terminal 5. If the fuel pump still doesn't run, however, go to Step 3.

3. Check for continuity between main relay connector Terminal 7 and the fuel pump. If necessary, repair an open in the wiring. If the fuel pump still doesn't run, go to Step 4.

4. Check fuel pump. Even though it's certainly possible, I have never seen a Honda fuel pump fail. They are very reliable. Clean connections and thoroughly test pump motor, prior to replacement. Before going any further, all efforts must be focused on getting the fuel pump to run (i.e. solve Problem 1 first), when main relay connector Terminals 5 and 7 are jumped and the ignition switch is turned to ON. If the main relay and fuel pump still don't work properly together, however, go to Problem 2.

Problem 2: Determine why the PGM-FI Main Relay doesn't work properly.

5. Check for continuity between main relay connector Terminal 2 and body ground, with the ignition switch OFF. If there's no continuity, clean the main ECM ground, which is usually located on the thermostat housing. Look for 3 wires going to a brass connector. Remove the 10 mm bolt, clean with No. 240 abrasive cloth, and apply dielectric grease. Repair, if necessary, an open in the wiring between the main relay and the main ECM ground. If there's continuity, go to Step 6.

6. Measure voltage between main relay connector Terminal 1 and ground. If there is not battery voltage, test/replace the ECM fuse (15 A) in the under-hood fuse/relay box. If necessary, repair an open in the wiring between the main relay and the ECM fuse. If there is battery voltage, go to Step 7.

7. Turn the ignition switch to START. With manual transmissions, depress the clutch pedal. With automatic transmissions, the gear selector must be in Neutral or Park. Measure voltage between main relay connector Terminal 6 and ground. If there's not battery voltage, test/replace the STARTER SIGNAL (7.5 A) fuse in the under-dash fuse/relay box. If necessary, repair an open in the wire between the main relay and the STARTER SIGNAL fuse. Should the main relay and fuel pump still not work properly, go to Step 8.

8. Perform the K-Test on the ECM. Remove the MAP Sensor connector and turn the ignition switch ON (not start). Using a multimeter, check for 5 volts going between the MAP Sensor connector's reference wire (+) and ground. As you look at the connector, this is the socket on the right. Really press the black test lead into a cleaned main ECM ground on the thermostat housing. If the voltage is low, it's probably indicating ECM failure. Most failed ECMs will record a fraction of a volt. To me, the K-Test is simple, elegant, and accurate. The ECM controls grounding to main relay Terminal 8, which affects when the second relay inside the main relay opens and closes. If the ECM cannot control grounding to the second relay, the fuel pump will not run. The only alternative is to replace the ECM.

SUMMARY OF MAIN RELAY PROBLEM AREAS:

Terminal 1--Test ECM fuse in under-hood fuse box.
Terminal 2--Clean main ECM ground on thermostat housing.
Terminal 5--Test ACG (ALT) (S) fuse in under-dash fuse box.
Terminal 6--Test STARTER SIGNAL fuse in under-dash fuse box.
Terminal 7--Test continuity to fuel pump.
Terminal 8--Test ECM (K-Test).

Well the car is running nice and smooth has before but I have a fuel leak... its the one of the fuel line(not the one with the bolt) and it's a small leak between the plate of the pump and the gaz line... its there a quick fix for this?

Ensure any soft copper sealing washers were properly installed and you used a torque wrench to tighten the banjo bolt. Old copper washers should not be reused. You positively don't want any leaks.