Hello,

Ok so I'm looking for some help with a new basement bathroom.

Our home is a 1970's ranch, I am working on installing a bathroom into the basement, I was going to go with a Saniflo system for a full bathroom. However I had a relative come over this weakened and say that its pretty easy to install one once you cut up the cement, and I was never that confident in using a "crap" pump.

So my question is this, the bathroom is going to have the waste pipe running right through it from upstairs, so distance is close to the waste pipe, once I cut up the cement what do I do, how do I cut into the iron waste pipe, I know how to cut in to it above ground but not bellow, the basement has plumbing running through it under ground for the utility sink and a half bath upstairs, and there is a stink pipe about ten ft from this stack.

Im thinking about using a pump for the shower and sink still since I have planned for that and am confident I can do that, however I would like to do the toilet. And its a lot cheaper to use a conventional toilet.

Thanks

Here is a picture of the instlation...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0823082312.jpg

Notes:
The tile is laminate tile , also the drain for a utility sink is inline with this waste stack in the next room over, as is another vent. I am suspecting that the pipe has an elbow that connects the lines? (relitive to this picture, the right side) also the basment has 2 drains built into the floor
This waste line turns into a vent after the toilet on the first floor feeds into it, also the shower and sinks from above empty into it.

It is doable... but it is lots of work, and lot of mess, for somebody who is not familiar with plumbing work and who doesn't have professional tools. Is there any way you could raise your floor 8" ?

Anyways: You will have to cut concrete to get to the pipe under the slab. Cut out chunk large enough so you can work with pipe cutting tools below the floor. Remove that clean-out "Y" that sticks up from the ground. ( Cut either 2" above the Hub or right below the Hub. Don't cut right at the Hub or you will have hard time connecting couplings ). You will probably have to cut off another 6" or so from the bottom pipe to compensate for the height of your 4"x3" closet bend 90. (Here, you have to pray that clean-out was not sitting directly on top of vertical-to-horizontal transitional fitting. If that's the case, than you would have to connect to horizontal pipe using slightly different installation approach) Install new 3" sanitary "T" with 2 - No Hub couplings. Distribute your new waste lines as per your new bathroom design.

Once you've gone so far, you can probably run rest of the drains under slab. You can use ABS instead of Cast Iron under slab. ABS is cheaper and easier to work with...

Hi MK:

As stated by Milo... you can do it if you want too.

Most important when messing with a cast iron stack will be to support that cast iron stack before you even begin to think about cutting into it! Not only could you destroy your plumbing upstairs if stack falls after cutting into it, but could also get seriously hurt if plumbing came down on you... ok? This part is not to be taken lightly!! Here, once you expose pipe and are ready to cut into the stack you take some 2"x4" studs and you support under fitting hub at highest point above the floor (or use a riser clamp and post under this... see last pic.)... use 2 or 3 studs if possible and kind of hammer them in so tight between floor and fitting... ok?

That being said, you will open the concrete to a 4 foot hole or so (rent a chipping hammer or similar tool), dig out to below the pipe and then use a sawzall with a LENNOX diamond cutting blade to cut into the cast iron stack. You could also use a ratchet snap cutter but I don't recommend it here as it can crush the pipe and make this a bigger job then it needs to be).

You would cut a 3" no-hub cast iron sanitary tee fitting into the stack if cutting into vertical pipe. If cutting into horizontal pipe use a 3" no-hub WYE fitting.

You would use shielded clamps or the 4-banded husky clamps to connect the fitting in between the cut sections of the pipe (see pictures below). You cannot use the two-banded rubber fernco couplings sold at home depot for this (see pic. Of last clamp).

I say you open the floor up , dig around pipes and then post us a picture of what is happening under the floor. See what we can do from there...

Let us know what you think!

MARK

This all sounds good... so once I cut up the cement, these pipes are buried under some dirt? Also if I need a 4tf space how do I have a spot to support the stack.

How much "waste" is possibly in these lines?

What about the cement around the pipes themselves? How do I get that out of the way.

And... should I use iron? Or pvc?

So I made a drawing, its not the best.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/plumb.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0823082312NEWSTUFF.jpg
This is how I want it to be laid out...

So I am wondering once I cut though do I need slope in my pipes for the drains and run to them to a "T" or do I branch the main pipe over to the shower and sink. Should I rase the base for the p trap under the shower? Or to the trap in the cement?

Oh and about the new "T" what if this has an elbow to a mail sewer line? And where do I put the new cleanout if I'm cutting that out?

Just for refferance... I am under 2006 Michigan Plumbing Code (IPC 2006)

Thanks

One more thing? How do I know if my seweage is gravity fed and if I need a backflow valve?

1. Pipes are below the slab, in dirt, or bed of sand. Usually they will be about 12" deep and deeper. The deeper they are, the better for you..
2. Sewer pipes should be empty ( remember, they are sloped and all waste should travel through the pipes out, and away, from your house ).
3. Use PVC or ABS. It is very easy to work with and you can buy all fittings and pipe in Home Depot / Lowe's type stores
4. Nail piece of 2x4 x 24" long over the drywall, on the wall about 24" high from the floor, and behind the existing C.I. pipe. Make sure you drive at least couple of nails at each end of this 2x4 and into the wall framing member (stud). Than, take plumbers tape ( piece of flat metal strip with holes) , wrap it around the vertical C.I. pipe and tie it tight against this 2x4 using drywall screws. Double the support up for better grip
5. I don't think you need check valve. Your sewer is coming from above, changes flow from vertical (above ground) to horizontal (below grade) and uses slope to exit your property to towards City sewer. Therefore, you should have gravity type sewer system within your house...

Open up your floor and post a photo. We'll take it from there.

Ok so I talked to someone today that's does this regurly, they recommended, just build a base for the floor up since that will still leave about 7ft of ceeling height( from the drop ceeling), from there take the cap for the cleanout off atach a t and run my piping from there. Around under my new floor? What do you think is this a better faster cleaner aproach? They said 8" im wondering why i couldnt do 6"...
Is there a way I could thread in a iron "T"? Or use a pvc? Also would I need to build some kind of access to these pipes under the new floor?
Let me know what you think of this

Thanks again for everything... sorry for all the changes, just looking for all angels,

I suggested the same thing in post #2. Ok, nominal lumber you will use will be 2x8" which actually measures 1 1/2" x 7 1/2" inches + 5/8" plywood on top as floor.

You cannot use 2x6" lumber ( actually 1 1/2" x 5 1/2" joists) because you need space to clear 3" bends + bit of slope towards the stack. Also, you have to cut the stack vent to attach San T. That will use some of your valuable space as well. That's why 8" step.

Use PVC or ABS. Both are HomeOwner friendly. And cheaper too. No special tools needed.

OK sounds good, so I'm thinking if I cut two inches above the floor coupling will this allow for the insertion of a pvc san T


On the floor I was planning to lay tile... between the sheathing and backer board plus the tile... about what another 1.5" maybe more.... and my shower walls are 78" should I cut these down to fit the room because I will no longer have 78"... its going to be more like 73"

Why couldn't I just find a pvc iron threaded adaptor atach it to the san t and thread it into the clean out and then bring the clean out up to the new floor level.. . of course I would thread it first then bond it...


Also can I use a angle adaptor with a smaller atachment for the shower... and then a horizontal wye at the shower drain for the sink drian.. the bathroom layout is a sort of you shape so it would work out if I could do it like this...


Thanks

1. Sure, you can use Female Adapter and screw it into existing CI clean out
2. yes, you can use Y adapter and angle one outlet to sink, the other one towards shower

OK so I know this wouldn't pass any code ever... but will it work and not leak? What do you guys think of this??

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0827081449.jpg

It has a fernco doughnut between the iron and pvc

Can I connect a 90 "Ele" directly to a tiolet flange?

And are there any recommendations for not having enough height from underneath for piping... besides rasing a floor


Thanks

Yes you can. Pluming code only specifies how long your drop can be before having a vent. You can put a street 90 right into you closet flange. Let me know if this helps. If not I will go more indepth.

yes you can. pluming code only specifies how long your drop can be before having a vent. You can put a street 90 right into you closet flange. let me know if this helps. If not i will go more indepth.


Thanks... helped... since I have you here..

Do you know anything about pressure testing?? Is it nessicary or could I just pour a lot of water down a few times?

Also I do have one other post on here if you get a chance,, the last post I made on the thread is what I'm looking for now also.

Thanks so much

Hi MK..

I didn't think the male adapter was going to thread into that cleanout... sometimes threads at cleanouts don't match any known threads of a fitting to adapt over to pvc because they don't want people threading fittings into them... ;)

What fitting is that.. Is that a male adapter or a reducing coupling in the fernco donut? Is it a street reducing coupling?

If one of the above, as good as it looks, this connection could very well leak later when placed under pressure (such as a full toilet flush). The fernco donuts are made to accept full size pipe not any of the other fittings I mentioned.

You could try installing full size pipe in the fernco donut and then take off with sanitary tee and cleanout from there... Or you could install a manhoff fitting (see picture) and PACK that in using a little oakum and some lead (melt this in ladle or similar tool). Here, you pack oakum around joint to within about 1-1.5" of top of cast hub and then melt/pour lead to rim of cast hub... let cool and then pack the lead tight with packing irons (last 2 pictures). Tools can usually be rented for this.

I hate to be a bummer on you... looks like you did some hard work there... but you asked if this looked like it would work and in my experience the fittings I mentioned first don't work with these donuts! I would hate for a sewer smell/leak to develop later down the road under that floor... so figure that we should take a little extra time here and discuss this so that we can be sure no issues later... hope you don't mind!

Let me know what you can... ok?

MARK

Hi MK..

I didn't think the male adapter was going to thread into that cleanout...sometimes threads at cleanouts don't match any known threads of a fitting to adapt over to pvc because they don't want people threading fittings into them....;)

What fitting is that...? Is that a male adapter or a reducing coupling in the fernco donut?? Is it a street reducing coupling??

If one of the above, as good as it looks, this connection could very well leak later when placed under pressure (such as a full toilet flush). The fernco donuts are made to accept full size pipe not any of the other fittings I mentioned.

You could try installing full size pipe in the fernco donut and then take off with sanitary tee and cleanout from there...Or you could install a manhoff fitting (see picture) and PACK that in using a little oakum and some lead (melt this in ladle or similar tool). Here, you pack oakum around joint to within about 1-1.5" of top of cast hub and then melt/pour lead to rim of cast hub...let cool and then pack the lead tight with packing irons (last 2 pictures). Tools can usually be rented for this.

I hate to be a bummer on you...looks like you did some hard work there...but you asked if this looked like it would work and in my experience the fittings I mentioned first don't work with these donuts!! I would hate for a sewer smell/leak to develop later down the road under that floor....so figure that we should take a little extra time here and discuss this so that we can be sure no issues later...hope you don't mind!!

Let me know what you can...ok??

MARK


Thank you massplumb...

OK, don't think I'm not taking your advice and not listinening to you... because I am,
But,, I was looking online for the adaptor that you were talking about, I found it to be called a soil adaptor, and I came across a an adaptor that's made for this and then it says to use plastic lead, they are both made by genova, I would send a link but the site froze up.

Let me know what you think

p.s. you are a good plumber, that was a male threaded adaptor. Later I did switch that with a portion of pipe, however I'm now thinking it would be better to ditch the rubber and go with a seal such as this one or the one you were talking about.

Thanks

Got the links,

http://doitbest.com/PVC+fittings-Genova-model-71730-doitbest-sku-442747.dib

http://doitbest.com/Water+pumps+and+parts-Genova-model-14210-doitbest-sku-419931.dib

Hi Mk...

As a pro... I wouldn't use it because I have all the leading tools and lead and oakum on the truck!

However, seems to me that this will be a very good choice for your circumstance! I especially like that the plastic lead expands as it dries!

I say you go for it and then let it dry exactly as recommended then hopefully you can get this project up and running.

I am planning on posting a basic idea of how to pipe this tonight sometime. I would love to know if wet venting is allowed in your area... any chance you could call a local inspector and ask him?

Let me know...

MARK

Mark,

Not sure about the wet venting but that main stack is a vent and the toilet is going to be about a little over a ft away, however the do it best store here didn't have those items instock so I went over to the local plumbing store,, again, and happened to find a 3" galvinised adaptor for the 3" pipe,, the pice ran me 33 bucks but I'm sick of waiting on this crap... been 3 days now doing the same stuff,

So now I'm using the galvnized adaptor threaded and I can thread my pvc male threads into this... and bam its solid, sealed,
.

If your drawing this up, note I have to use a ele right onto the toilet flange

Thanks so much for the help
I love this site

MK...

Call local plumbing inspector and ask him if wet venting is allowed?

Then tell me if anything connects into the vertical pipe from above... if it does then this is a waste stack at this point and toilet, sink and shower will need to be individually vented or may be possible to vent all from 1-2" wet vent... That is, wet venting will save significant time and money.

Let me know more here...

MARK

Well I called up an inspector, they are going to call me back when they are avaible,,

There is a toilet and a shower and sink that feeds into this stack, and also there is a stack from the addition upstairs on the 2nd floor that feeds into this stack, the stack is a vent after the first floor toilet.

Also the shower and sink are going to have to be on the sanishower system because I can't get enough height for the drains of those, I was planning to have that drain into a wye after the toilet in the piping...

I think that wet venting is allowed because the utility sink has a wet vent... I think at least... here is a picture of the utility sink
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0828081752.jpg

The pipe is going straight up to the roof, I know for sure it's a vent

Hi MK...

The picture posted actually shows that the utility sink has no vent at all. For a vent to be a sink vent it must come off ABOVE the ptrap of a the sink. Clearly there is no vent coming off the top of the trap so this is an unvented fixture and should be fixed now if you have the chance... (just so you know anyway). You could install an individual vent as required and connect to other vents or you could also install a provent (see picture #1) here if not going to be inspected, but at least the provent would allow air to mix as utility sink drains AND allow air to enter into the system when water flows through that pipe to the left instead of pulling it from the trap of the utility sink and siphoning the ptrap dry and allowing sewer gasses into your home when the fixture (kitchen sink perhaps??) above drains (a health hazard)... so if get chance, at a minimum consider the pro vent (see picture #2)... *whew*... ;)

OK...now what is this about using the sanishower system for the shower and the sink?? Great system...but why can't you get all this to gravity drain...?? Let me know more...ok??


Chat soon... MARK

Hi MK...

The picture posted actually shows that the utility sink has no vent at all. For a vent to be a sink vent it must come off ABOVE the ptrap of a the sink. Clearly there is no vent coming off the top of the trap so this is an unvented fixture and should be fixed now if you have the chance....(just so you know anyway). You could install an individual vent as required and connect to other vents or you could also install a provent (see picture #1) here if not going to be inspected, but at least the provent would allow air to mix as utility sink drains AND allow air to enter into the system when water flows through that pipe to the left instead of pulling it from the trap of the utility sink and siphoning the ptrap dry and allowing sewer gasses into your home when the fixture (kitchen sink perhaps??) above drains (a health hazard)...so if get chance, at a minimum consider the pro vent (see picture #2)....*whew*...;)

OK...now what is this about using the sanishower system for the shower and the sink?? Great system...but why can't you get all this to gravity drain...?? Let me know more...ok??


Chat soon...MARK

So that's why the sucking sound always... however the traps remain wet, the sink was that way when we moved in and has always been that way I suppose...

But, the reason I can get this to all gravity drain is because the shower base is raised already about 8" which is the max because my shower doors are 72... the way I had to connect the san t to the existing clean out has caused me to have more height that expected... I'm already going to have to raise the floor an additional 3.5 to 4 inches because of this and the mimnium drop caused by the elbow to toilet flange, unless you know of something else

But as of now this is how I plan on connecting to the stack,

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0828082020.jpg


Its too high to allow me to run all of the shower piping and sink piping with a downslope of even a 1/8th inch. And I have this as tight as I can get it...

Unless I can put a 45 ele at the stack run a wye then a 45 from the toilet, other side of wye I could install a T with a clean out? And then connect piping from shower and sink??

Let me know what you think of this,

However no inspections so if wetventing isn't to code but will work fine lets do that... if this works what I just had... wow that was a revelation

OK... I've done it

Pictures are ready... atfirst I found this on the right and started freaking out, but soon took off the clean out cap and realized this wasn't the path I could see...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/IMG_0752.jpg

Is that an old clay pipe?? Didn't think the house was that old and the basement seams to have a consistent cement... anyway

Here is a eye level of the pipes... if this continues on this path... it will intersect closly with the shower drain and sink.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/IMG_0751.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/IMG_0750.jpg


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/IMG_0748.jpg


If you need to see more let me know

I want the toilet to be in this area... to the right of the overall view picture... but within the hole I opened up so far.

Hi Brian... excellent job! I see you don't mess around!

The clay pipe is an inside perimeter drain pipe so try not to disturb this too much.. ok (I would have you cover the clay pipe with some gravel and then a liner fabric before closing up the hole... can discuss later).

I'll draw up the best way to pipe this up a little later tonight. I am going to present the piping in the wet vent manner discussed earlier.

You really lucked out with the pipe headed as it is... and not too deep. Seems you have a little luck on your side.. ;)

See if you can locate some lennox diamond sawzall blades at your area home depot or similar. If they don't have diamond blades then the carbide blades do OK, too.

Ideally a local plumbing supply house will be open tomorrow morning and you can go purchase the correct fittings and clamps. If not, then we can come up with another solution... best overall will be to get a cast iron no-hub wye fitting and some no hub or mission style clamps. Check local supplier in the AM and I'll give you a list for them if they are open. If not, then I'll give you another list to go to home depot and get supplies there... I am thinking you can finish this up this weekend and get working above ground next week!

PS: That looks like it is 4" cast iron underground...a good thing!! Just so you know!

Talk soon...

MARK

Hi Brian...excellent job!! I see you don't mess around!

The clay pipe is an inside perimeter drain pipe so try not to disturb this too much..ok (I would have you cover the clay pipe with a some gravel and then a liner fabric before closing up the hole...can discuss later).

I'll draw up the best way to pipe this up a little later tonight. I am going to present the piping in the wet vent manner discussed earlier.

You really lucked out with the pipe headed as it is....and not too deep. Seems you have a little luck on your side..;)

See if you can locate some lennox diamond sawzall blades at your area home depot or similar. If they don't have diamond blades then the carbide blades do ok, too.

Ideally a local plumbing supply house will be open tomorrow morning and you can go purchase the correct fittings and clamps. If not, then we can come up with another solution...best overall will be to get a cast iron no-hub wye fitting and some no hub or mission style clamps. Check local supplier in the AM and I'll give you a list for them if they are open. If not, then I'll give you another list to go to home depot and get supplies there...I am thinking you can finish this up this weekend and get working above ground next week!!

Talk soon...

MARK


soundss great mark... I know that the one main plumbing supply in my area is closed sat and Monday because of labor day, but of course home depot is open, however there could be another local plumbing supply open, not sure though
there is a local hardware store it's a True Value, but this place is huge and has been here forever, they cary everything, alota people say if you can't find it anywhere check northside, and usulay they do have it. This place will be open,

haha, and no I never mess around, I'm the kind of guy that will work his off until its done then take a break and if I'm talking about it I will problay want to do within ten min, don't like to mess around,, as you can see,
sometimes this works sometimes it gets me into a mess, haha



question, since I see that your still here, if this runs in the directon of the shower drain should I just do two sepret cuts? Or should we stay with one?

oh and the perimnter drain... it had a small amount of gravel, but some dirt fell down in that crack? Is that OK? Should I be concerned?

this is the stack above my floor and underneath the first floor.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0829081902.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0829081903.jpg

the cast iron wye goes to second floor full bathroom, the galvanized steel pipe is from first floor shower/bath and then the pvc is from the first floor toilet

if possible could we use the open 2inch fitting for the venting? Only things above this is the firstfloor sinks, there are two small ones


thanks
-Brian

Hi Brian...

No issue with a little dirt getting into the clay pipe... happens at every joint between clay sections. Just be sure to cover with 3/4" to 1" gravel stone.

Sorry... that 2" tapping is a waste line tapping and will not be anything close to a vent for this bathroom. I bet if you chase out the other 2" tapping with galvanized piping that it picks up the lavatory or tub..? Let me know.

As presented... YOU WON'T LIKE THIS... but we will need to get a little creative with the venting to this bathroom, but we discussed fact that venting was going to be tough underground or above the floor so that really is not a change as much as a fact.

I mentioned connecting in at least 6 inches above the sink in the bathroom... either you need to connect into the stack a foot or so above the sink on 1st floor or you will need to run vent into the attic and connect vent from this bathroom up there (or could go with accessible PRO-VENT.. but since going this route I suggest you go full tilt and finish accorrding to code and tie 2" vent into vent system as described! ). We will discuss more.

Anyway.. I will draw up some basics... be right back... (refresh screen every 5 minutes until you see next post).

MARK

Haha, OK on standby refreshing every 5 min, don't rush though I'm in my own world... however, I did label all of those connections in my post. The galv pipe goes to the tub on first floor yes

For venting... kind of worried about this... don't have any access to the vent stack between here and the attic, even in the attic I was looking its really cramped not much space at all... what about, I've read about air valve... I forget what its called, the alztimers is kicking in again

Ahhh... air admittance valve

A start...

Refresh again in 5 minutes. Hoping I did not confuse files... BRB

Ahhh.. AAVs... yes.. may be option in this case... we'll see. First is to present best choice... work from there... ;)

Hi Brian... get that floor opened a bit more and dig down so the dirt is under pipe.

I will post all info needed from here by 8:00am eastern time... check back then.

I am having fun with this and think you are doing a great job. Talk in AM... my little guy wants to play!

MARK

a start...

Refresh again in 5 minutes. Hoping I did not confuse files...BRB

Ahhh..AAVs...yes..may be option in this case...we'll see. First is to present best choice...work from there...;)


Haha OK, No Files are looking good, keep in mind... I'm no longer at the job, so I can not take any additional pictures tonight, I may have some saved in email I can look if you need others.

? Question? ->am I using iron for anthing other than the wye?

Hi Brian...get that floor opened a bit more and dig down so the dirt is under pipe.

I will post all info needed from here by 8:00am eastern time...check back then.

I am having fun with this and think you are doing a great job. Talk in AM...my little guy wants to play!!

MARK


OK good good,, go go

I have a little one also, a new one for me :) talk soon thanks, I'm hoping for a early start so as early as you can, but don't get up any eariler...


Thank you

No.. after wye I hoped to transition to pvc via an adapter or clamp.

And missed one question. You should take this off the one 4"x3"wye I drew earlier... not two fittings.. will explain in AM.

Good night...

MARK

No..after wye I hoped to transition to pvc via an adapter or clamp.

And missed one question. You should take this off the one 4"x3"wye I drew earlier...not two fittings..will explain in AM.

Good night...

MARK


Goodnight

Thanks

OK.. here is some more info.:

see next post for more info.



.

OK...

You will need to purchase:

1-4"x3" no-hub cast iron wye fitting
2-4" 4-band clamps (best here..see 1st pic.) or can purchase shielded clamp (2nd pic.), but don't buy fernco rubber clamps (third pic.).

1-3" shielded clamp that transitions from cast iron to pvc plastic pipe (will say so on the clamp)

PVC cement
Pvc primer
2-3" 45 degree fitting
2-3" street 45 degree fitting
1-3" pvc 90 degree fitting
10 feet 3" pvc pipe
1-3"x2" pvc wye
1-2" pvc wye
2-2" pvc couplings
1-2" pvc ptrap without cleanout
3-2" pvc 45 degree fittings
3-2" pvc street 45
1-2" dandy cleanout (also called a test tee... see fitting picture)
2-2" pvc 22.5 degree fittings
2-2" pvc street 22.5 degree fittings
1-2"x1.5" sanitary tee fitting (will be installed above ground to pick up sink)
10 feet 1.5" pvc pipe
3-1.5" pvc couplings
1-1.5" pvc 90 degree elbow
2-2" rubber jim caps (see last pic... cap pipes after they come out of ground)
1 can rectorseal pipe dope (for lots of things as we go along).
1-3" jim cap (toilet)
20 feet 2" pvc pipe

That should get you started. If can't find the 4x3 no-hub cast iron wye then will need to purchase a 4"x3"PVC wye, a 10 foot piece of 4" pipe and 2-4" no-hub x 4"pvc adapters....ok?? You will still use the original clamps.

I have included a few extra fittings...JUST IN CASE! You may want to purchase other fittings as well... they can be returned.


Some basics here:

All pipes pitch at 1/4" pitch per foot.

Toilet pipe gets roughed in so it is 11.5" to 12" to center of pipe from rear finished wall.

Sink gets piped so it centered on sink. Sink pipe ends up at 18" to center off the finished floor... so if traveling 4 feet from the vertical 2" pipe you must start the 2" pipe you must start the 2" sanitary tee at 17" to center from finish floor so ends up at 18" off finish floor in the end.

Shower p-trap placement cannot be finalized until you have the shower base in home... so for now can stub to shower area and cap for now and then get the shower, determine correct rough in and then will place the shower p-trap.

We can discuss testing all this once you get all this piped and capped.

For now, stub the 2" sanitary tee at 17" and cap (after cementing over floor you will add the 2" dandy cleanout here and then the 2" pipe out of ground about 20" sanitary tee for the sink).

Obviously, after the wall is built by the sink you can drill through the studs and install the sink waste.

No regular 90s underground... only long sweep 90s... can make using 45 and street 45 fittings as I discussed with you earlier.

Let me know if you have questions. You know my number... ;)

MARK

OK...

You will need to purchase:
Let me know if you have questions. You know my number...;)

MARK


Hey mark...

Thanks for all this,

One question? When I attach the iron wye, do I make the part that comes off sloped a little bit?( if you were to put a level on the piece perpendicular it would not be level across it, so the part leading to the toilet is sloped into the drain pipe slightly?)

Hi..

Yes you want to install so has pitch up.

When get set to cut into the cast iron you would lay the fitting on top of the pipe and then cut the pipe so it is about 3/4" longer than the fitting....this is very important..ok?? This 3/4" excess will allow for the clamps inner rib.

You will install the clamps, slide clamps back, then bend the rubber parts back upon themselves, then install fitting, then flip rubbers back to grab the fitting.. then slide clamps in place and clamp this up to a proper torque.

Keep me posted

Ok got it,, thanks

Going shoping now and plan to be cutting by 11

Thanks so much Mark

Good luck!. don't forget to add sawzall blades to your list!!

You still here?

Can't find the CI WYE could you explain the route I have to take to install the 4" wye?

Oh and I do have the shower already :)

yup...

You want to purchase a length of 4" (ouch), 1- 4"x3" pvc wye and then if available 2-4" no-hub x 4"pvc adapters. Then cut 2-3" pieces of 4" pipe and prime them and fitting and then cement these into the wye. Then cement the no-hub x pvc adapters onto pipe ends.

Then you put on top of pipe and make marks PLUS 3/4" and then make straight cuts through pipe... etc...

If no-hub x pvc adapters are not available we can discuss alternative. They are usually available at home depot!

This is not that soil pipe adapter you showed me earlier... this has a rib at one end... see picture below

yup...

You want to purchase a length of 4" (ouch), 1- 4"x3" pvc wye and then if available 2-4" no-hub x 4"pvc adapters. Then cut 2-3" pieces of 4" pipe and prime them and fitting and then cement these into the wye. Then cement the no-hub x pvc adapters onto pipe ends.

Then you put on top of pipe and make marks PLUS 3/4" and then make straight cuts through pipe.....etc....

If no-hub x pvc adapters are not available we can discuss alternative. They are usually available at home depot!!

This is not that soil pipe adapter you showed me earlier....this has a rib at one end...see picture below


HD Supplies precut 4ft or 2ft I can't remember sections of 4"pipe is this enough?

YES... I was just thinking that... you only need 6-8 inches... ;)

Cool cool,, OK addig to list and off to buy :)

Wish me luck,, haha

Thanks SO MUCH!!

Everything is going good mark,, just want to write a couple of questions before I forget, haha


OK so not quite sure how this works... but... with the ele I put bellow the floor it brings the plumbing right up to concrete level,, isn't my flange going to bring up the toilet another 2" or so?? or do they have street flanges?

also i just noticed the 2" pipe from the wye to the wall, I just noticed you had it in the wall... one problem, the wall is already there, I'm wondering,, can I just bring up underneath the vanity then use a 45 or 22.5 above a SAN T to curve this into the wall and then keep going? I didn't build this wall it was an existing wall,

Let me know...

Thanks

hey mark,

hope your still there, OK so I have the pipes all laied out and I'm waiting for approval. :D

too many pictures to post in here but I have them all up at this link (http://s357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/mylx5oh_/),


couple of things... how do I know when I have a 1/4" slope? I've just been using a level ontop of the pipe... also

the ele for the vanity and vent,, it is sticking out of the cement inorder to keep the proper slope.

not quite sure how to do the p trap, do I have it correctly,, the pipe will not come up straight because its not straight its angled back towards the drain direction,, its in the correct location according to the instructions of the shower 1ft X 1ft center of pipe

anything else you see...
let me know

Hey Brian... I'm here!

Looks like you did a great job! Really.. a great job here!

Be sure to remove those rocks up against the pipe... backfill with good soil (rocks are bad)... cement as needed.

You need to wrap some cardboard strips around the toilet pipe you stub up so can install the closet flange later. Cardboard around pipe should be about 5" diameter hole...ok?? You will remove the cardboard after concrete has dried...then you will cut pipe and install flange OVER TILE floor (if tiling).

You know you have 1/4" pitch per foot when you take a 1/2" shim under a 2 ft. level and level reads level...that make sense?? If using a 9" torpedo level would use a 3/16" shim and again should read level when laid down on pipe.

You don't need to worry about that though... ALL LOOKS GREAT!!

Just need to stub up pipes and perform water test... will discuss tomorrow.

Looks really good!

Hey Brian...

Again, all looks great!

First, I want you to cap a piece of 3" pipe that is six inches long and then cap it with a jim cap. Then I want you to dry fit this into the toilet elbow. You need to dry fit (just place into toilet hub) this because you will be pulling it out later and using a STREET closet flange after tile is installed to install the toilet. Wrap cardboard around the hub and the pipe so that concrete won't touch it when patching floor.

Second, cement 15" pipes into the shower ptrap and the sink drain and then cap them with jim caps.

Third, you want to build a box out of 2"x4" so that box is about 8"x8"... build it with only 1 nail in each end as this will be installed around the shower pipe so that it is about an inch above the concrete floor and then you will install the concrete floor and then you will pull the 2"x4" box out later so that you can install the shower strainer assembly for your new GRAVITY FLOW shower... ;)

Fourth, I would now have you remove the caps and flood this system with water from a hose... cold water only. Also fill the tub upstairs and drain that to assist in testing the main wye fitting/connection. Test each pipe with hose at full run for 5 minutes each and then inspect each joint. That will have to do as a test here!

Fifth, cap the drain lines again and then backfill this baby to within 3 inches of the concrete floor

Sixth, wet the dirt pretty good and the edges of the old floor, then mix/pour concrete and use a WOOD FLOAT (trowel) to work the cement into the old concrete floor edges. Then use a wetted straight piece of 1"x4" pine (I dunk mine in 5 gallon bucket of water when doing this alone) and screed over the trench to bring concrete level with old floor. Finally, use a metal trowel to smooth out the finish of the concrete and then let it dry. A metal trowel will pull water to the surface of the floor so don't overdue this part...just smooth and be done.

Mix the concrete in a wheelbarrow if you have one. I am thinking you will need about 7-8 80lb bags of concrete.

After all done, post another pic. So we can see this put to bed and we can all know that you have completed this underground job AND you don't need to cut the shower walls or step up 8 inches into bathroom or listen to pumps whirring at midnight or have to replace pumps ever, etc... :) Glad you opted for this!!

Let me know what you think or if have more questions!

MARK


.

Hey Brian...

Again, all looks great!!

First, I want you to cap a piece of 3" pipe that is six inches long and then cap it with a jim cap. Then I want you to dry fit this into the toilet elbow. You need to dry fit (just place into toilet hub) this because you will be pulling it out later and using a STREET closet flange after tile is installed to install the toilet. Wrap cardboard around the hub and the pipe so that concrete won't touch it when patching floor.

Second, cement 15" pipes into the shower ptrap and the sink drain and then cap them with jim caps.

Third, you want to build a box out of 2"x4" so that box is about 8"x8"....build it with only 1 nail in each end as this will be installed around the shower pipe so that it is about an inch above the concrete floor and then you will install the concrete floor and then you will pull the 2"x4" box out later so that you can install the shower strainer assembly for your new GRAVITY FLOW shower...;)


Let me know what you think or if have more questions!

MARK


.


Sounds great Mark, thanks for the list

2 questions right now?

Do I pack the dirt good?

And is my p trap correct, by not being straight (its tilted back with the drain pipe.

Oh and my ele's for the sink are coming out of the ground..

Thanks

Oh... and what do you think about using some of the old concreate small pices as aggregate? It was actually in there to begin with

And is my idea for the lavetory drain OK?

Pack the dirt good... especially under the pipe but do so in a manner that does not raise the pipe higher.

Can add larger concrete pieces in the trench after you have covered the pipes real good with dirt (no rocks /concrete pieces go near the pipe).

Shower Ptrap is not good...sorry! This pipe needs to come out of ground plumb both directions. To do this you need to level the last piece of pipe going to ptrap and then level the ptrap in other direction... this is critical later as is the placement. Spend extra time getting this dead on nuts so that when you go to install the shower base it is easy!

The fitting at lavatory is fine... lots of fittings end up in concrete... just try not to let pipe up in concrete or cover with less concrete here... ok?

Your idea with coming up inside vanity will work just fine. You will install the vanity and then later you will add that dandy cleanout I mentioned and then the 2"x1.5" sanitary tee and then 90 into wall (which will have pipe stubbed out from 2" vent to attach to).

Keep me posted...

MARK

JUST IN!!
READ ALL ABOUT IT!!
Haha, wow after a long day of working getting 600+ lbs of concrete

ITS DONE, and I think it looks great,, went mostly with no problems (knock on wood)

I've been done for a few hours now, just got back to my house


So I've updated that link I posted,

Here's a quick view :)
Before
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/mylx5oh_/0831081545.jpg

After :)

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/mylx5oh_/IMG_0770.jpg

Better and more pictures here (http://s357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/mylx5oh_/)

So you were saying earlier about water supply lines,
I my have done this half backwards, but I already ran lines for shower and vanity a week or so ago... I knew how to do copper supply lines, hopefully its OK,, as you were saying copper is too expensive, wish I would have known,, good thing I know for the longest line ( the toilet)

I will take pictures,, you can kind of see them in some of those pictures I already have,, the vanity ones are going to be moved,, those were where I thought things were going to end up... but I've had to make some adjustments, as a new door has been requested... lol

Talk more in the AM,, I'm dead tired

Night

Brian..

Fantastic job you did there... Mom should be very proud of you!

I bet you are glad that's over... :) Now I can drop- by and take a shower and I won't bump my head or have to bend down to get my chest wet!!

Next will be to get that 2"x4" box pulled up and out and get that cardboard from around the toilet pulled, too. You did dry fit that stub up for toilet like I stated (twice)... yes?

Next will be to finish piping the water... if you started copper and only need to finish the shower valve itself and pipe up the toilet you stick with the copper tubing you've been using. At least you'll know about the PEX systems I talked about earlier for next bathroom :p PEX requires special tools and just not worth learning just to run 1 cold water line to toilet.

Toilet water usually roughs in at 6 inches to left of toilet pipe center and about 6 inches off finish floor... but can go as high as 8 inches off the floor for standard two-piece toilet.

Finally, you will want to purchase a NO-CALK shower drain assembly (see picture below)... this will be installed as expected (use clear silicone under lip of drain) and then the shower base with the drain assembly in place will be lowered over the shower drain pipe and the base will be leveled from front to back and from side to side and then screwed into the wall via the flanged edges of base.

The shower base should be set in a bed of mortar or structolite as I discussed with you earlier.

Then you will slip the rubber donut over the pipe (see enlarged pic. Of donut) by soaping up the inside of the donut a bit. Then install the metal ring about hand tight (will compress the donut later when tightened)... mark the pipe at the height of top of ring... and then remove the ring and cut the pipe down to about 1/4" below that mark using an inside pipe cutter tool in a drill (see last picture). Practice with this tool by cutting a piece or two of pipe out of place. Then you will replace the metal ring and you will tighten it with the flat wrench with slot in it that is provided with the unit (tie a string onto this wrench as it has a tendency to fall into the pipe if dropped). Then click the shower strainer in place and you should be finished with the base. If base rises a little off the floor to plumb it up it will be fine as long as no higher then 1/2" or so (tile will hide later).

You should purchase a drop ear elbow for the shower arm/shower head... see third picture. And if your shower valve requires male adapters (see fourth picture) then you want to be sure to PRE-SOLDER these to copper tubing before putting teflon or pipe dope on them and installing them into shower valve.

That should be enough to keep you going for a few... ;)



MARK

Not just Mom, me too ahah,, man I think I spent more work trying to do it the other way,, what a waste,, whish I would have done it right the first time,, no other way but the right way to do things, it did indeed feel good to finally be done with the drains in this...


... well I will problay need another 25 to 30 ft of copper to run the toilet,, plus id like to learn, so it would be financaily worth it... haha

Are the tools expensive? Its always good to have tools ::

I have the drain already also,, well it came with the shower... here's a link (http://www.sterlingplumbing.com/onlinecatalog/detail.jsp?frm=&module=Shower%20Kits&item=4255703&c) that has instlation instructions and spec sheet.

Also,, I have all the supply lines hooked up and pressurized... shower too, the only thing is that I have the wrong drop ear ele... the one that I have doesn't have ancors


You should purchase a drop ear elbow for the shower arm/shower head... see third picture. And if your shower valve requires male adapters (see fourth picture) then you want to be sure to PRE-SOLDER these to copper tubing before putting teflon or pipe dope on them and installing them into shower valve.

Check,, I made sure I did that :)... only thing with my shower is that I planned for it to be higher... now its not so I'm going to have to move it down anyway the valve is at 52 inches, which should be fine... lol the head is at like 82 or something like that

Thanks mark for helping me with that floor, don't spend too much time on here today enjoy your labor day with your family :)... tomorrow morning I will call the plumbin store and ask about the PEX they carry


Talk to you then


P.S. Your welcome to come over any time... haha

I swear... always takes more time to screw around then to do it right!

Your shower unit came with a no-calk drain so all set there... ;) Cool!

You don't need to have drop ears on shower elbow if threaded fitting in place already... just anchor well with copper clips and will be fine. Common height for shower arm is between 78 and 80"...then the arm is installed with ehad lowering to comfortable height for most. In your case, opt for 78" (cause you guys aren't too tall) and will enjoy that for your family. Shower valve itself can be anywhere you want it.

Check what type of PEX in your area... and most plumbing supply houses actually rent the tools so don't necessarily need to purchase tools... ;)

Click on this link to learn more about PEX systems:

AOL Image Search results for "viega pex plumbing tools" (http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?invocationType=imageDetails&query=viega+pex+plumbing+tools&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pexinfo.com%2Fimages%2Ftoolde crimper-thumb.jpg&site=&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pexinfo.com%2F&width=74&height=61&thumbUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fimages-partners-tbn.google.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AYc_iX4knzz3EiM %3Awww.pexinfo.com%2Fimages%2Ftooldecrimper-thumb.jpg&b=image%3Fquery%3Dviega%2Bpex%2Bplumbing%2Btools%2 6page%3D3%26displayCount%3D20%26invocationType%3Dt opsearchbox.image%26clickstreamid%3D13027647896035 16134)

I use the viega pex system (not shown at above link), but not sold everywhere so determine what's in your area and we can chat about that anytime.

Have a good day, Brian!

MARK

Couple of questions...

How long do you usually let your floors cure for?.

Small difference in my thought... the toilet elbow is not even with floor in fact its about an inch and half down :/

I am suspecting you thought of this when you told me to use the cardboard so that there is room for a regular flange? Or does the street flange have some length to it? I hope that I don't have a problem here

And I still have venting to do right?

Thanks

Just wanted to write these down before I forgot them

I usually finish the plumbing and the electric work.. then I blueboard and plaster then I set my tile... so cure time never really works into things for me. If yopu want to tile sooner than that I would say to let the concrete dry for a couple days and you should be all set to tile.

A street closet flange does have some depth to it (about 2.5" deep from under ring of closet flange to make up on the fitting)... so I think you'll be all set once you set the tile. You may need to order an extra deep street flange.. ;) Try a regular street flange and see what happens.. let me know.

And yes... you still have to connect that 2" vent from the lavatory into a vent in the attic...if I remember your setup. Look around basement and just make sure there is no vent to connect into...I'm quite sure there won't be after seeing that utility sink setup...;) Then look around for a way to get 2" into attic (I run them up inside closets once inawhile.. justify left or right and really will never see it)... and connect into a 2" vent or larger up there.

Keep em' coming Brian... looking forward to you finishing this one and taking a shower in that baby!

PS...you are installing a bathroom fan in this bathroom...yes?? Let me know?? And, who's doing the electrical?? Let me know...

MARK

Hey mark,

Yes yes,, of course I'm putting in a fan, I am going to do the electrical,

I've done elcetrical many times before and also I'm in school for electrical, not residentail work but I know how it all works and the proper precautions to take,, as well as the required equipment :)

Ceiling- I'm doing a drywall/ and pannel tile board over the shower,, and then vinyl drop ceiling for the rest (I got some high humidity clima plus tiles from usg... garenteed for 30yrs... ) because there is a lot of acces to pipes right above this area... walls I'm doing same drywall and then a tile pannel board.

Man,, the attic is going to be hard to get to... we have 2 floors to go through and all finished walls, this bathroom is sitting underneath the kitchen

If possible may be able to run the vent to the upstairs bathroom.. cut a hole in the wall and install a vent there. There will definitely be a 2" vent at the 1st floor bathroom...would need to connect in at about 48" off the floor... just another thought for you.

Otherwise all sounds good. If need electrical advise on this let me know... been wiring them for over 20 years now.

MARK

Wow... you do it all... OK if I have problems I will let you know lol

On venting... I'm pretty sure the upstairs vent is running through the wall... right at where another wall connects... so at the T... what kind of bends can we do for the venting? I could get it to a closet I think and then up and through to a vent in the atic... not sure though... I will look around


Oh and I think its iron in the walls,, up to the attic
Brian

You will need to use as few fittings as possible. 45s are best, but if need 90s use them.

Iron in the walls would just make this more fun for you... :) LOL...

MARK

Well there is iron in the attic,, it's a tight space also there is problay only maybe a ft... before it goes into the roof... it flares out and gets biger for most of this also...

And I would have to cut across the atic as well... what if I just run this up into my own atic vent?

Can always cut this and penetrate the roof separate of other vents.

They make a KOZY KOLLAR vent kit that allows you to punch through the roof and install the roof flange WITHOUT GOING OUT ON THE ROOF... SEE PICTURE BELOW.

How do you recommend I line this all up for drilling... I mean from the basement to the attic?

Not sure I understood..?

I'm thinking shortest route using closets if necessary.. let me know.

... lol I meant to line up each hole but I thought of a way... I meen from the floor to the ceeling and through to the other floor and then ceeling again... each hole

Can always use a PILOT DRILL BIT (about 18" long) if needed... sold at home depot.

Hey mark,

I will talk to you later just letting you know in case you check this first, I called the shop and the guy didn't know what kind he carried. He said what do you mean?? As if he didn't understand the question... so no help there, he says to me PEX is just a name. He did tell me the type of connectors they cary but I doubt that means anything because you can use different connectors for different types.

Also they don't rent the tools and they cost about $140, I checked rental places around here too,, no one

Let me know what you think,

Found out,, called the other location he said BOW?? Its not even listed on the page you gave me to check.

Homedepot caries PEX,, but I don't see the tools on the webpage, I say this because I could buy and return from these places. Haha
Homedepot and Lowe's both cary Zurn

This is what Lowe's has on the webpage (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&Ne=4294967294&Ntt=pex&Ntk=i_products&category=Tools&N=4294961060)... could I use these?



But I have to go to this plumbing store because I bought that 30 dollar steel bushing, and they have a 15% restocking fee in 5 days (25% after until ten days, then no return) plus a handling charge, so he says well figure out what your going to get and come back here and I'll give you the 15% still and waive the handling charge

Im at school right now so I'll check back in a few

1st guy must be a dunce 'cause as you already know there is viega, zurn, wirsbro, etc. Some people just like to make things tougher for people... *shrug*.

Zurn pex is good, reputable system...

You aren't planning on running pex just for the toilet pipe.. are you?

Talk later...

Well I was going to... just because I will be looking at another 30 dollars or more in copper,, I could cut costs in half...

What do you think?

I will post a picture of the current copper I have up here... just in case its wrong.. I don't think it is, I may have done something you shouldn't I'm not sure...

I did some reserch,,

Bow is here (http://www.bow-group.com/pages/SousCategories.aspx?LANG=EN&cat=57)

They have a 25yr warranty they can't be that bad?

and here is some more information (http://www.bow-group.com/doc/catalogs/usa/PEX-0608.pdf)

I came across this website (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-731.html) saying that Bow and Vanguard are the same (pex-b) some grading system someone made,,

The plumbing sore sells in 20' length or 100' rolls

Talk to you soon

Hi Brian...

If you want to try this system out I don'tsee why you couldn't.

Usually, however, I wouldn't recommend investing the time running down the tools and/or purchasing the tools and learning the entire system.. especially where something could go wrong based on the idea that you have never used this system... all for just one 15 foot run of cold water over to toilet.

Fact is that you will need to cut into the cold water copper pipe to install a copper tee fitting and then install a transition adapter and tubing and sweat all that up... why not just finish in copper and be done with it?

UP to you... I mean , if you want to for fun..then go for it! You deserve some fun after all the hard work!

Let me know...

I would like to learn for the next project I do, but I guess I'll just have to settle for the copper, more simple.

so my shower drain moved maybe a 1/4" in each direction but its plumb still, should I just put some filler strips behind the shower base?

I'm just waiting for the floor to dry some... then I'll do the shwer base... problay tomorrow,

question,, When you set up the rough shower valve... How do you measure to see if you have the right depth... I just measured the difference from the back of the 2x4 brace I put behind it.

Hi Brian:

If you put filler strips behind the shower then you will also have to build out the rest of the left wall and the wall on the right so that when you sheetrock the sheetrock will cover the flange of the shower without bowing outwards.

In fact, I will fir out my walls sometimes just depending on how thick the nailing flange around the shower is... I don't like a bow... and my customers wouldn't either.

After you dry fit all this and slide donut down over pipe (without cutting it) check to see if you can just push the unit back into proper placement... a 1/4" is usually OK to force the unit back and still maintain a good seal at the pipe... let me know.

The shower valve should have a mark on the rough in plate or the rough in plate itself should be flush with the finish wall of the shower... read the instructions provided with shower... or give me a name on the valve and I can tell better... just be sure to include the additional depth required by firring out the 1/4" from behind the unit if you end up doing that.

Keep 'em coming...

HEY Mark,

So this is what I will do, I will see if I can't get this to line up good by itself. My walls are going to be drywall and then I got some GP Tileboard, it's a waterproof pannel 1/8th" thick so overall im looking about 5/8ths" thickness. In the directions of the shower they don't make it clear about the walls, if they come down over the side of the base, and the walls behind don't cover the side of the base... then what about that gap? What goes there is there just a gap?

also what about the 8x8 hole am I going to be putting grout in this hole?

My shower valve is Moen, the instructions are so vauge,, there aren't even any words just pictures... haha

Thanks Mark

Also... I alllmost forgot,

The vent pipe is kind of worrying me, The closest route I will be able to take is going to require a horizontal run of about 15-20ft, and even then I'm not sure if these two closets line up,, if they do, it will be great but that initial run is that a problem?

I traced the iron and that just happens to run right through the perimenter wall right at the point that another wall intersects, and its iron :)

Glad to help...

The moen shower valve has a black or white plastic cover plate that comes with it... this is the rough in plate. Install it onto the valve (if not already on the valve) and make sure that this cover plate is FLUSH with the finished shower wall.. see pictures below.

I fill the gap you are talking about with something that won't wick water... like a premixed thinset or premixed mastic... just trowel into this space, let dry overnight and then apply the panels as instructed. This will prevent panels from curling in or getting pushed in.. so important step.

The 8"x8" hole will be filled with the substrate you will be setting the base in... I use a structloite perlited gypsum (sold at home depot in my area)... can also use a premixed thinset mortar here, too... just be sure not to put so much that it comes squeezing up and out of the drain hole which will present difficulty when setting donut... this is a fine line and I will go into more detail at my next post. Look for it tonight sometime.

I hope that is what you were talking about... ;)

I'm off to work... talk soon.

Use that pilot drill bit I mentioned and check how things line up. Pilot drill bit is 12 to 18" long and only costs 10 bucks...

Hey mark,

I will get that pilot bit... :)

With the shower, how do I know once I assemble it and morter in in that I'm getting a water tight seal? Is there any way to really test it?

I'm thinking pour some water in the pan, but then when I take it apart and look, if there is any water on the inside of the drain it will drip down... or no?

Hey hey..

You will dry fit the base first and cut pipe down so it is about 2 inches higher than needed.

Play with it and examine how much tilt will be needed to achieve a plumb base from side to side and from front to back. How much do you have to raise each side to achieve perfect plumb? Make note of it on left and then on right sides of wall. Then you want to take a pencil and trace the level base where it is perfect.

Now is a good time to dry fit the donut at the drain and mark the pipe for cutting. If super confident in all this then you can cut the pipe to the right height, but be sure to study the drain with piece of pipe in it first by playing with drain and pipe and the brass ring to tighten it (remember to tie a string onto the flat wrench).

Now, examine the base and with information gained from above determine how much mortar you will need to set the base. You want base plus lift needed to level base plus an inch or so extra to squeeze out to edges. Then install mortar so that it is about 4 to 6 inches away from the center of the base (so won't squeeze up through drain hole) and set the base to match the pencil line on the wall.

Double check with the level and then screw the base to the studs. Don't be afraid to set temporary shims from front to help support the front of the base while base mortar dries (front has a tendency to drop overnight so shim this). Then, before mortar sets, install the drain as required... install pre-soaped rubber donut, then install ring, then tighten appropriately. Then pour 1/2 gallon of water into drain (not in pan... just into pipe to reduce sewer gasses from coming up). Then snap cover over drain. Do all this without moving/falling into base... ;)

Let base dry overnight and then set walls according to instructions. If mortar happens to squeeze into drain area just take a pencil and thin rag and remove propmtly.. then proceed.

You should not really need to test the drain at this stage if you do all this correctly... study the drain with piece of pipe in drain and be sure to get good understanding of a tight seal.. then go for it. You can test the whole job next day or two but I have never seen one of these no-calk drains fail if person understands how they work! I think you'll see what I mean.

On the walls... if just 1/8" panels that get adhered to wall then one trick is to install as usual but then after setting panel in place you want to pull it off the wall, let air dry for 3-4 minutes and then readhere the panel. This will help keep panels in place better than if you don't do this.. ;) Don't forget to fill the space we discussed earlier.

Let me know what's next??

MARK

Sounds good... what about the dirt down in the hole? Should I throw a small amount of morter down there?

Not necessary as excess mortar will fall in if you space mortar only 4-6 inches away from drain and then set the base (better it fall in and fill this void then to squeeze up through hole).

Hey mark,

So I am still here,, still working,, haha

Couple of things... I think I might have messed up, I thought I had enough morter down but after a day, I came back and put some weight on the shower,, and I kind of got a squishy sound and herd some air squeeze out,, :-/

Also I'm worried about the drain,, it seams as though I can't tighten it all the way, it will get so tight then slip out of the threads... and be uneven... maybe I'm just tighting it too much,,

Hi Brian... see if possible to unscrew the pan and see if can pull it up. If not... fine, but if can would be best too and start over.

The slipping of the threads is most likely due to the rubber not being pushed down deep enough into the drain assebly. Take a 1/4" nut driver or similar blunt tool and tap on this with a hammer to see if can set the donut deeper... let me know... ok?

82 answers on this thread! Got to be a new record for a single thread!

Funny stuff huh, Tom. This guy is actually working closely with me and together we're going to finish it!

I'd hire this guy in a heartbeat!

MARK

I will see if I can't get it up... actually I stuck my hand down there last night through the open wall side,, and it was still mostly wet... so hopefully I can,, one thing, you said thin set morter was OK right? I thought I remembered you saying it was...
Could I just put some more down over the stuff now? Or should I try to get most of what's there up?

Haha Tom we were going for a record,,

Funny Mark,, I was thinking I should go into plumbing ;)

I always had respect, but this is definetely a new found greatness for Plumbers

Thank you thank you thank you

Have a great day

Brian... try to get it up and clean all... then post back... thinking maybe structolite may be best here (sold at home depot in my area).

Let me know...

Got it up easy... wasnt even sticky... wasn't even dry, I don't know if it's the stuff I got or what... its premixed thinset from home depot, it says for tile, will it be OK for the tile??

Anyway I don't think I'll have a problem getting it up, definitely going to go get some structolite... :)

I forgot to say about the seal... I think I am getting it down all the way it looks kind of slanted in the drain also... did I mess it up? Or is it problay just stuck will try again when I reset the shower base.

Talk soon

Thanks mark

Stick with the structolite... stuff dries overnight... see picture below. This is all I use... squeezes out nicely too.

If donut looks crooked then it must not have been set deep enough? Double check the fit again when base is up and then try again.

Let me know...

Hey mark,,

Just finished with the structo,, I have to say, that plus the brass drain unit, I feel 100 times better.

:) thanks

That structo-lite is great stuff to work with huh.. Wait'll the morning then let me know what you think...

Lol yea it wasn't too bad, I opted for the manual hand mixing... wasn't bad at all, and that brass drain made all the difference, it's a lot better.

So is there a maximum horizontal run for my vent pipe? Because I have a way but it would require an L shape would be 22ft in one direction then a right turn and about another ten ft, then straight up to the roof... is this allowed? Otherwise the other way is a little more complicated.

Let me know

Brian...

You want to take shortest route possible...

As Iamgrowler (on-site plumber) so perfectly posted to me back at an older post... "Most codes allow only 1/3 of a vents overall developed length to be run horizontal. On a vent with a developed length of 60 feet, only 20 feet of that run would be allowed to be horizontal -- If the horizontal run exceeds 1/3 of the developed length, then you must increase the pipe size of the entire vent by one pipe size."

That means that if you go the route you presented that you would need to increase your vent to 2.5" minimum... not readily available either...

OR... find a shorter horizontal route... ;)

Let me know

I can do a shorter horizontal route :) I could cut it down to something like 20 ft , then straight up

P.S. That shower base is awesome, its solid :D

:D Back at you!

Keep 'em comin'...

So if I were to have a horizontal L at 20ft total that would be OK?

Borderline, but I think this will work just fine for you! Go for it!

Hey Mark,

In case your wondering ;) this is where the room is at, I'm working on the venting today but won't have much time to do so...

All the electrical is done, walls are up, tiles down and drying, plumbing is all done now... except for the venting

I don't think a pro. could have done better.

Thanks for update... waiting on picture of it all finished now!

Thanks...

MARK

Hey mark,,

Wow thanks, that's good to hear, however I have run myself into a slight problem, on the vent pipe, I ran it up through the wall, and just left the pipe there at the top, well I didn't think about it at the time but I really have no room to fit on a fitting. This is because the way the wall was built is that its right under a joist, so actually its about 2 inches of free space and 1.5 is taken by the joist, its right on the edge,. so I had to notch this for the pipe to come up,

That might be confusing, haha I have a bad headace right now, but my question is this,
Can I use a fernco adaptor here to connect the street 45's or a 90? Or is it best to just try to get this fitting on properly?

Thanks so much

Hi Brian:

Best here will probably be to try to enlarge the hole that pipe is coming through now... then pull the pipe forward as much as you can so that you can attach fitting without doing too much more damage to the joist...

Here, should just need sawzall with long blades to notch around the pipe. Or, you could drill another hole in front of it and lean pipe over and into that hole..? If you can get to pipe from underneath may be good idea to cut pipe and then install later using coupling...

Otherwise I think you have pretty good handle on how to get this done!

Don't you forget to post the finished picture... ;)

MARK

new Plumbing Page Record** 100 Posts!

I know this is a plumbing question but could you check over my electrical :) just to be sure, I'm pretty sure I followed code, I can take pictures if you need them, here is a diagram though

Tom... if anyone was going to break the 100 post record.. you just knew I'd be involved somehow... huh? :)

I swear...

Brian... you didn't need to run #12 to everything, but since it's done you may as well run with it. I'll try to post a pic. Of how I would wire this later tonight!

Talk then... MARK

Bye the way Brain,
Let me give KUDOS to both you and Mark. You for the great plumbing joib that I see pictured and Mark for guiding you through the process. You two demonstrate, to the max, what this page is all about. Congratulations on a job well done! Tom

Thanks Tom, I love this site, I'm on it all the free time I have now. :)

I've been reading, maybe not all 100 posts, but reading most. Can't help any better than Mark. You are at the point that I might suggest an epoxy stain proof grout that is pre-mixed, use on the floor and the wall tiles. I would not have suggested greenboard for inside the shower stall. Hardibacker or Wonderboard are a much better choice. Use of greenboad inside wet area stopped a long time ago.

Hey Ballengerb,

The walls are actually going to be a GP Tile board, and the shower has its own polystyrene walls, I was just using that for the backer

OK, that will work, you won't even need as much stain proof grout.

Mark,

OK, I made a stupid mistake, I have a venting issue,

Orignaly I was going to run down the wall about 6ft then because of some duct working the ceeling was droped here, so I was going to do a turn down at a 45 degree angle and cut across the walkway to a closet where I cut cut it back up and then through a wall and up to the roof... I didn't think this would be a problem until DUHHH rain water and condesation will eventually build up here and stop my vent... so now I'm at a rut,, the only other way would be to do my orignal run of about 25 to 30 ft... BUT, I realized I could tie into a 3" CI existing vent... or i thought about this,,, i could but a reducing T and run a "drain" in the middle of that drop to the utility sink and this could double as a vent for that?? What do you think? Any ideas? I've been thinking about this all morning now.

Let me know what you think

I could tie into a 3" CI existing vent... or i thought about this,,, i could but a reducing T and run a "drain" in the middle of that drop to the utility sink and this could double as a vent for that?? What do you think?
Brain,
If the cast iron vent is a dry vent you could cut in a inverted tee and vent your sink, however if somthing's draining into the vent from above you must revent back to 6" above that fixtures flood rim. Good luck and you've done a hellava job. Tom

Tom,

Well there is a sink but I would cut in 6" above that drain, that's the complicated way,, the other way I was thinking would be easiest,, well ither way its complicated I guess... lol its rough

When I cut into the iron Vent stack do I use shielded clamps again?

Hi Brian...

Yup... shielded clamps! Remember to support the stack above/below the cut.. just in case!

Your wiring looked fine. I didn't post a pic as I figured maybe three different ways I could do it which made me recognize that what mattered is that you GFCI protected the fan and the shower light!

Good job! Lot of junction boxes though... how come? And did you use any 12/3?

MARK

Lol I was wondering if you were still there,

Yea I used 12 3 for the two switches, and I used 12/3 for the jbox to the fan/light combo, haha I only used a box each time I switched the wiring.

How do I go about supporting this thing while its in a wall,? Did you happen to catch the post? What's your sujestion? Its post 113

Support piping from underneath if pipes are exposed beneath... or just use common sense... just be safe and don't let anything drop on top of you... ;)

Cut into drain line at 48" off finish floor...not 6" above drain, but 6" above the flood level rim of the sink (about 42-48") and connect into vent there... hopefully is 2". Or if necessary increase the vent size as we discussed awhile back and run that vent the 25 to 30 feet...

Not a good idea if I have that drop, then a Tee in the middle of that going to the utility sink, doubling as a vent? Maybe as 1.5" piping

This is what I'm hoping for, just because the vent now comes out up above the joists, and once I cross that doorway they switch direction, so its going to be a huge pain to go that way, and I don't know how good cutting a 2.5" hole in these joists is going to affect them,

Ahhh I'm stuck with this venting

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0913081137.jpg

I figure if I run the line in the drop,, this will drain any build up and also act as a vent for the sink which needs to be vented anyway... But this might not be allowed

Hey... not that it's not creative... I'll give you that... but goes against every venting principle I can think of! :p

Why do you have to drop down.. The picture presents that you could just go across the drop ceiling and keep pipe pitched as needed... as in my version with green line?

Let me know.

Oh how I would love if it were that easy,, :(

Problems; (ive highlighted these)

The yellow is the joist directon. So if I were to do anything on this side I don't see how I would get a pice much biger than 13" up in each hole between, i thought i would have the same problem through the room but,,, if i cut the holes i coud take the one long pice and stick it up in my joists running in the first room pictured, and stick it through, all the way,

1. The Height of the drop ceeling is about 3/4" from joists to top of runners, so nothing is going to fit through here underneath the joists
2. There is a air return section(yellow box)
3.The lowest I can get my new vent is still 2.5" into the joists,
4. At that door opening,,, There is;
i) A iron Beam (light blue) but about an 8" opening from the floor upstairs to the top of this
ii) 3 2x8 Joists together (about 4.5") so this is weight bearing (orange)
iii) A joist direction change (same as orange and blue)

i guess since ive figured out i could stick one long pice through my holes, is it ok to drill a 2.5" hole through these joists? And run as the second picture :)


I hope I'm not being a pain in the a#@ for you
sorry

If I'm being a pain just tell me to figure it out lol

We've gotten this far together... so no woriies there.. ok?

I'm off to a parade with my kid, but will pop back later and give some thoughts on this...

I got to ask... is there any room at all between bottom of joists and the drop ceiling?

Talk later..

Beginning of post 124 has it all

Have fun

Let me know

:) Thanks

Brian... all vents must pitch from the roof to the fixture being served. There can not be any trapping of pipes/vent in any way.

Your last pic looked OK, but seems to me that you would still need to drop down from the joist bay and into the boxout with beam anyway and then run back up so don't think this will work.

You could drill the joists at center if joists over say 8.5 inches tall..?

Otherwise... you sure you can't just run a pipe up inside a closet somewhere..? Check all again... let me know.

MARK

Hey mark,

Well even if I do go to a closet,, I still have the issue of opsit direction joists, and that return air ducting for the furnace

How do I get a section of pipe longer than 12" going opsit to the joists in there too?? You see my dielma

The closeist closet will require a 15 ft run still :-/

All I can tell you here Brian is that as a plumber, if I was having this inspected I would find a way to get that pipe up and into the attic and out the roof OR I would find a way to get it to the 1st floor bathroom and I would cut into a 2" vent up there (at 42-48" off finish floor)...

You'll find a way! Didn't I tell you I chased your telephone number down and determined your address and the plumbing police are on the way right now to inspect this... :) So best do good job... :p :p

Keep me posted... Don't hesitate to discuss this with us though... we never mind helping!

To go to the closet, I would have to go the opsit direction about 8 ft possibly more, and then make a left turn for another 5ft, there is 2 ducting pipes and 1 return ducting which is 2 joists wide

Didn't think it was going to be easy! Or you wouldn't be asking this question!

Haha nice, well I have been staring at this celing for a weak now :( grr maybe I'll just cut a hole through the kitchen floor and make it to the attic then :) haha, but I'll look at all of my options, its going to be difficult no matter what so il will try to get this a good way

Good attitude!

I can't tell you how many times I wanted to cry trying to get a vent to the attic... especially in cases like yours. BUT I always found a way and in the end always was easier than I thoughT!

Let us know how it goes!

When is the first shower planned?

So,, for some guidelines,,

Vent has to pitch up from drain use long 90's or 45's

Lol anything else?

Haha it was planned for last Sunday :-/

YUP... vents pitch, too! For vents you can use regular 90s and 45s.

Have you installed the shower doors?

No I haven't installed them yet, I'm waiting to do the walls and doors and stuff justincase I need to pull the one wall off to get to the venting pipe

FYI... can also run this vent outside of house to above roof line if absolutely necessary... with conditions! Let me know...

Well I realized I can cut into the kitchen sink vent, I just have to cut a hole in the living room wall, but its gota be done so,, only thing imworried about is support, this is a galvnized steel pipe 2"

Oh, when you say 6" above flood line, do you mean 6" above the top of the last drain point in a sink?

When I say 6" above flood line I mean 6" above the rim that the water would overflow if drain was plugged ansd water was running full stream...

The kitchen counter, for example, for a kitchen sink. In the case of the sink you will tie in about 42" to 48" off floor (counter is 34" plus 6" equals 40" but most of us go 42/48 so inspectors can see that we get the idea)..all vents from fixtures on this floor must connect in at this height...

The bathroom from the basement must connect at least 6 inches higher than the highest fixture on the first floor....again the kitchen sink or the lavatory sink...so plan on connecting vent in at 42 to 48" off the 1st floor.

If can see galvi. Pipe from below just support with 2x4s... otherwise, open wall so can get a riser clamp or a split ring around the pipe for support while cutting, etc...

Yea this is galvi from the basment floor and the kitchen sink is tied into it with galvi, so I'm asuming that its galvi up to the roof, sink is only thing on this stack

That is how it usually works! Sink almost always on its own vent.

Good solution here... I knew you'd figure it out and the right way, too!

Now to be a bummer... wanna bet that vent turns out to only be 1.5"?? :eek:

Haha... let me go up into the attic right now and check,, it better not be, although the piping from the sink is 1.5"

GRRR...

I am not known for bringing joy to others... :rolleyes:

I can't tell,, all I can see is a hub, and then it goes to 3" CI but underneath this hub its solid something all around it...

would they go 2" to 1.5" then 3"??

No.. most likely not.

You will know 100% when you open the wall!

Sounds like you got a winner here to me, Brian...

So is that solid pice under the hub strong enough to hold the weight of the pipe? Its not more than 8 ft of pipe above my cut

You should be OK cutting into the galvanized pipe... plan on the sawzall binding as you cut into the pipe... then, I would make the other cut...

Here's how I do it...

I pre make a 2" TY onto 6 inch pieces of pipe, then prime/cement 2" no-hubx2" pvc adapters ontp pipe ends...then I measure overall length and I cut this length plus 1/2" to allow for rubber sleeves. Then I make the cut and I try to remove the piece I cut.. if removes pretty easy I will just slide the new pipe in place, orient it correctly and clamp all up. If any resistance to removing the pipe then you will need to get a 2" riser clamp and install that above the cuts , place small 2x4s under wings, etc...

I know the pipe goes straight into ground downstairs, otherwise I would discuss other things here as well...

So for me to buy,, I need a 2" Tee and some spigot adaptors?

If its raining should I wait to cut this?

Yes to buying 2" sanitary tee and spigot adapters... Tee goes in upside down.

Yes.. no cutting in the rain!

Sounds like you almost got this licked!

.

Darn,, supposed to rain until Monday,, guess I'll do all the prep work and get it up to the right point of cutting

A vent fitting connects into the stack by being turned upside down. This allows water to flow from the vent at roof to the drain in basement without obstruction or interruption of flow... play with the fitting you will see what I mean.

Lol Yea I deleated that post, I thought it was a regular T didn't notice san T

Hey Mark,

Ok so I did it, I ened up just cutting through the joists in the first room, I will post pictures, but I decided to do this because I figured it would be better as the joists I cut through really don't have any weight on them.

Also I ended up getting just a regular flashing, the kozy kolar was 65$ compared to 3$ for a regular one, besides going on the roof isn't an issue for me.
I'll be finishing up this venting today :),

Is there any kind of testing I should do?

Not sure about cutting the joists..? Hope you know what you're doing with that!

I would run a hose down the vent a bit, turn on water and let it run for awhile. Be sure to check all exposed piping and check in basement frequently as you do this just in case there is an unknown blockage... ok?

That should be all you need to do at this point!

Talk later.. off to work again!

MARK

No I just used a 2.5" hole saw,, but I'll show you what I mean by where I did it in the picture later

Ok souds good talk later :)

Any tips for installing the flashing?

Hi Brian:

Good news on the joist!

To install the roof boot just need to cut an oblong hole so pipe will stand up straight through the roof. Then you will slide the roof boot under the first layer of shingle and trim the shingle so it matches the contour of the metal/rubber interface... Once trimmed, the roof boot will slide into place and pipe goes up through hole in roof boot.

Can add a little roof adhesive or even silicone under the roof boot if want... but not needed if sits down tight to roof and shingle matches contour of bulge in the roof boot!

Let me know if that makes sense?

MARK

Makes sense,, got it, its great,
And 17 pages later VENTING is done:) (correctly) :) haha

Awesome job! You could have given in so many times. Glad you stuck in there and did all of this the right way!

Talk later...

MARK

OK got the pictures


The last one goes out to the garage and up I think I used 6 couplings:):)

what I was saying about the joists is... the white box looking thing there is the iron beam... and at the end of the joists is a 3 wide 2x8 beam... so in between here there can't be much weight on these joists,, not only that, above this is a closed off area, under the stove and emptyness :) so I figured this would be better to drill than the other ones, as every one of the other ones carried the full weight of the room above because they spaned between the two basement walls... :)

Nice Job... no concerns here!

Mark small problem,, it's the atack of the vent, AGAIN! Haha

No but in the pictures you can see,, I can't get my connection to the vent lined up unless I move my san t down, but then I don't know if I can connect like what I'm thinking... I want to branch it out a little and then use a 90 and then use another 90 to the san t... but I'm not sure if I can do that,,

What the heck did they do to the atachments thing?

I'm not exactly sure Brian...

Site upgrade! I'm hoping they get the kinks worked out soon!

Mark can you check 166 right above, thanks

Brian...

In this case I would get an 1 1/4" extension tailpiece, which will lower the ptrap which will allow you to lower the sanitary tee fitting which should allow you to work the fittings a little better so you can attch up to the vent....

I can't post a picture because my browser won't allow me to yet....:(

The tailpiece should do the trick. Plan on getting the 6" long one or plan on cutting a 12" tailpiece to about 6"...

Can use the 2 90s if you need too...

Let me know if that made sense...

MARK

Makes perfect sense,, I forgot about the extension tubes...

Ok another question,, should I fastening the toilet flange to the concrete floor underneath via some concrete screws? Or is it OK because its on concrete and tile? Just cement it into place (pvc cement)??

Thanks, should be done with this bath today ;)

Cool that you will finish today!

I always screw my flanges to cement floor to reduce chances of toilet twisting and to reduce any chance of a call-back. I use the TAP-CON screws... just drill hole and screw right into the cement (just don't screw into pipe).

If you choose not to screw the flange in be sure to add a bead of caulk to the toilet base... about 3/4 of the way around to help keep toilet from twisting.

GOOD JOB DUDE!

Post final pics. If you can!

MARK

Ok here they are :) thank you so much everyone, still have a couple of things to do but mostly done :)

One thing do you recommend silicone or adhesive/culk for the shower walls, (I used silicone and it was leaking and pulled right off) but there was a small gap,

Thanks again
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0921082101.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/mylx5oh/0921082102.jpg

Good Job !

Only that exposed toilet supply pipe: was that necessary ?

Yep that's the basement concrete wall :) I know that kind of ruins the room, but its just how we decided to go. Is Copper paintable?

Sure, it can be painted...

I was watching your progress form distance. I think Mark did great job leading you though the project and various details - and you excelled in interpreting his instructions and making it happen.

Overall, you should be proud of your accomplishment ! Looks good ! You saved yourself a bundle ! Congrat's !

Wow thanks

Looks really good Brian...

I think this thread will serve to help others in the future... so check back once inawhile to see how many people have actually viewed this thread (already at like 1400ish)... ;)

I'm not clear on silicone issue... I use a mildew-resistant caulking for shower in this case... everything must be absolutely dry before applying.

Painting pipe: Sand the copper pipe down then apply a metal primer (rust-o-leum metal primer in can) and then paint using a rust-o-leum paint and should almost blend into wall... ;)

Like Milo said... we can advise you, but you took the directions and made it work!

GREAT JOB! And one last time I got to say it... NICE NOT TO STEP UP INTO THE BATHROOM... HUH? :p

Talk later Brian...

MARK

Haha its wonderful, I wouldn’t have done it with out your encouragement,

Thank you much for EVERYTHING!!
Can I get a round of applause for Mark, everybody.

As for helping people yes I think so, I ask so many questions haha, but maybe they could trim it up? There isn't much but I know they have modified it already.:p

Clap, clap, clap... from Los Angeles:D

Thanks Brian.

Really was a tag team effort though! Thanks Milo, Tom and Bob!!

By the way... my number was off earlier. This thread has been viewed over 1800 times... already! Wait'll 3-4 years from now... Brian will be famous!

Have good day all! :)

Wow how ironic, I live in Michigan, live in a 1970's ranch house connected to city sewer and am planning on putting a bathroom in my basement directly below an existing half bath ( in my case I plan on removing the above bath ) What a goldmine this thread is, I really enjoyed reading it. Now I just need to wait for next summer and build up the nerve to do it.

Glad you found it HG... :)

Pop back and let us know when you start!

MARK