Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I don't know the full meaning of this, but it doesn't sound like a physical church. And the name isn't catholic. Perhaps you can shed some light on what your interpretation of this scripture means, and not just the part about peter starting a church, but the scripture as a whole?

Exactly THE Church is a spiritual concept for any TRUE believers that come together.
It doesn't even have to mean a church or a building it can be a group of any true believers
Even if it is two or three gathered in a park. Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am in the midst.
Jesus was crucified by the religious and government officials reasoning that he was going against things they stood for. Much of the Church in Acts was believers meeting house to house.

Catholic means universal, all of the early churches were tied together, though councils of the church, the original groups that meet are what became the Catholic and Orthodox chuches that we know today.

But back to the scripture, what's the interpretation for us?

catholic means universal, all of the early churches were tied together, though councils of the church, the orginal groups that meet are what became the Catholic and Orthodox chuches that we know today.

The original posted statement is correct. The scripture was refer to Christ and how Our Father had revealed Truth of His Grace and Word to Peter, and not man of flesh and blood.

Note:The scripture has nothing to do with the catholic church. That is a concept the church developed for themself.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

I, I, I, "Jesus" confirmed the fact that Peter received the knowledge of Truth from the Father, and that Truth, that foundation, Peter would minister.

Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

By ministering the Truth of Jesus, this Truth has granted and brought forth the open door to heaven which is the key to heaven. ( Jesus is that key) All that is declared of Jesus in Truth is to be spead, brought forth on earth and in heaven. And whatsoever was declared of Christ is announced and laid out. Note: I will build my church. Jesus will build, Jesus opened the door, Jesus is the key.

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus gave the key to heaven when He was raised from the dead. Jesus gives His Life unto (all = church =membered body ) to be declared.

Matt 16:13-19
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

What do we see here?

- Jesus was speaking to his disciples as a group
- The topic was "who is Jesus"
- Peter answered that he is the Messiah, son of the living God.
- Jesus does not immediately refer to Peter, but rather the fact that the revelation of the truth came from God the father.

The word Peter here is Petros, which means stone or a piece of a rock, and then Jesus refers to the "rock" which is the revelation of who he is, and states that His church shall be built upon this revelation that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. The word "rock" here is Petra, which means rock, or a mass of rock. We do not build a building upon a piece of a rock or a stone, but rather upon a rock that is massive enough to provide a solid foundation. Jesus' choice of words made it clear which should be the foundation of His church.

It is interesting to note the consistency of scripture in the use of these terms, Rock and stone. Throughout scripture, the Rock is always God (Father or Son):

Deut 32:4
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.
NKJV

Deut 32:15
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
NKJV

Deut 32:18
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you.
NKJV

Deut 32:30-31
30 How could one chase a thousand,
And two put ten thousand to flight,
Unless their Rock had sold them,
And the LORD had surrendered them?
31 For their rock is not like our Rock,
NKJV

2 Sam 22:47
47 "The LORD lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let God be exalted,
The Rock of my salvation!
NKJV

2 Sam 23:3
3 The God of Israel said,
The Rock of Israel spoke to me:
NKJV

Ps 18:46
46 The LORD lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let the God of my salvation be exalted.
NKJV

Ps 28:1
To You I will cry, O LORD my Rock:
NKJV

Ps 42:9
9 I will say to God my Rock,
"Why have You forgotten me?
NKJV

Ps 95:1
Let us shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.
NKJV

Ps 144:1
Blessed be the LORD my Rock,
NKJV

Isa 17:10
10 Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation,
And have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
NKJV

Isa 44:8
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

Hab 1:12
O LORD, You have appointed them for judgment;
O Rock, You have marked them for correction.
NKJV

1 Cor 10:4-5
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
NKJV

As for the stone, there is much less, but here is what we do find:

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
NKJV

So, we are stones, but there are references to Jesus as a stone as well:

Rom 9:33
33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV

He is both a Rock and a Stone. That is because he is the cornerstone:

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
NKJV

The cornerstone is in fact, a rock. So Jesus can be called a stone (cornerstone), but is more frequently called the Rock and even the reference to Him being a stone refers to a Rock (cornerstone). On the other hand, there is no reference in scripture anywhere of Peter being called a Rock. He is a stone, as we all are stone per 1 Peter 2:4-6. This may also be a reference to the fact that Jesus is both God (Rock) and man (stone), and is the sole person to hold such a distinction.

Jesus, as the Rock, is also the cornerstone, which is the most notable piece of the foundation, but the confession of Peter that Jesus is Christ is the foundation upon which the church will be built. We see this endorsed in scripture as well, later by Paul:

1 Cor 3:11
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

So the foundation is Jesus, not Peter. A church built upon Jesus, and the revelation of the fact that he is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God is the church that will stand, not a church built upon a man.

IF the Catholic Church was meant to BE THE church then why didn't Jesus have it established during his life time? Why did he have Peter do that? AND why did it take 325 years after Peter IF Peter established it??

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?

Jesus inquired of the disciples.


Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Simon responded.


Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus commends Simon for his response. Jesus says that Simon's response was inspired by God the Father.


Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Jesus then rewards Simon by designating Simon as His representative.

I believe TJ already listed all the times that God has been called the Rock in Scripture. By renaming Simon, "Peter", Jesus is designating him His representative.

This is not something new. God has assigned men to represent Him in the past. Chief amongst these representatives of God is Moses:

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.


Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:

This verse is what lets us know that the office of Peter is a continuing office. The keys designate an office of vicar. Let us compare to Isaias 22:22 where perhaps you will recognize the language.

22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.


and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

And note the power that is associated with this office. God confirms in heaven, this man's decisions on earth.


I don't know the full meaning of this, but it doesn't sound like a physical church. And the name isn't catholic. Perhaps you can shed some light on what your interpretation of this scripture means, and not just the part about peter starting a church, but the scripture as a whole?

I hope that helps you. The part about it being a physical entity on earth is found in Matt 18:17:

Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

If Christ's Church were not physical and therefore visible, one could not find it in order to resolve disputes.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I believe TJ already listed all the times that God has been called the Rock in Scripture. By renaming Simon, "Peter", Jesus is designating him His representative.

That would be blasphemy for Peter to be called by a designation for God alone, and it is in fact not what is said in scripture.

That would be blasphemy for Peter to be called by a designation for God alone, and it is in fact not what is said in scripture.

It would if you or I had made that designation. But Jesus is God incarnate. And God has done something similar before. He called Moses God.

It would if you or I had made that designation. But Jesus is God incarnate. And God has done something similar before. He called Moses God.

It is YOUR claim that Jesus said that, but we do not find any such thing in scripture for Peter - or Moses.

It is YOUR claim that Jesus said that, but we do not find any such thing in scripture for Peter - or Moses.

Here are the references again:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Here is my question again if I go to Washington D. C. and sit in the Oval office does that make me the President?

Here are the references again:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Sigh! Do you see a pattern here? Every time you post this, you leave out the context:

Here is the context:

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV

The Rock is Jesus - scripture calls Peter a stone (except in the eyes of those who have not looked into the Greek)


Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.[/I]

As I said before, get a better translation (and I note that you chose not to say what translation you use)

Here is a better translation:

Ex 7:1-2
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV

Jesus is referring to Himself when He states that "upon this rock I will build my church." He builds us up in Him and upon His Truth. The church is the body of believers who obey Him.

Here is my question again if I go to Washington D. C. and sit in the Oval office does that make me the President?

No.

But if God tells you that you are Rock and gives you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and tells you that what you lock He will lock and what you loose He will loose, and if you see that this is written in Scripture, will you believe Him?

Scripture tells us that Jesus said this of Simon. We believe Scripture.

Jesus is referring to Himself when He states that "upon this rock I will build my church." He builds us up in Him and upon His Truth. The church is the body of believers who obey Him.

Not from the context. Jesus says, Simon, you are blessed of my Father, therefore you are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church.

Why would Jesus change subjects mid stream? Why would Jesus after declaring Himself the Rock, then go on to give Peter the keys and declare that he could lock and unlock?

Its obvious, that Jesus gave Simon the name that reflected the office which he was receiving. He renamed him Rock because Simon would now be Jesus' representative on this earth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sigh! Do you see a pattern here? Every time you post this, you leave out the context:

Here is the context:

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV

The Rock is Jesus - scripture calls Peter a stone (except in the eyes of those who have not looked into the Greek)

I don't dispute that. Jesus did call Peter the foundation stone or rock. Rock and stone mean the same thing.

Dictionary:
rock1
(rŏk) pronunciation
n.

1. Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone.
2.
1. A relatively small piece or fragment of such material.
2. A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak.
3. A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust.
rock: Definition, Synonyms and Much More from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/rock)

Dictionary:
stone
(stōn) pronunciation
antique stones
antique french limestone fireplaces architectural elements, fountains
Vieilles Pierres du Mellois (http://www.vieillespierresdumellois.fr)
n.

1.
1. Concreted earthy or mineral matter; rock.
2. Such concreted matter of a particular type. Often used in combination: sandstone; soapstone.
2. A small piece of rock.
3. Rock or a piece of rock shaped or finished for a particular purpose, especially:
1. A piece of rock that is used in construction: a coping stone; a paving stone.
2. A gravestone or tombstone.
3. A grindstone, millstone, or whetstone.
4. A milestone or boundary.
stone: Definition and Much More from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/stone)

As you can see, a rock can be large, a stone can be large. A stone can be small, a rock can be small.

But it is Jesus who calls Simon a Rock, "Cephas":
John 1 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.


As I said before, get a better translation (and I note that you chose not to say what translation you use)

You're the one floundering in your understanding of the Word. My dictionary is just fine.


Here is a better translation:

Ex 7:1-2
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV

And this helps your cause how? It still highlights that God sent a man to be His representative before men.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sigh! Do you see a pattern here? Every time you post this, you leave out the context:

Here is the context:

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

NKJV

That is like me saying to my kids


When mom said to her, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the boss."
And I said to them: You are my kids and ''upon this rock'' I will discipline you.
Meaning upon MY authority, I did not hand it over to them. I hand it on to them. I am STILL the Rock of their discipline.


Sigh: I do not know why you like to complicate the scriptures :confused:

Sigh! Do you see a pattern here? Every time you post this, you leave out the context:

Here is the context:

Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

NKJV

That is like me saying to my kids


When mom said to her, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the boss."
And I said to them: You are my kids and ''upon this rock'' I will discipline you.
Meaning upon MY authority, I did not hand it over to them. I hand it on to them. I am STILL the Rock of their discipline.


Sigh: I do not know why you like to complicate the scriptures :confused:

It is you who are confusing your interpretations with Scripture. Lets look at your example again.


That is like me saying to my kids

No, you've changed it up.


When mom said to her, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the boss."

OK, so far.


And I said to them: You are my kids and ''upon this rock'' I will discipline you.

Here you changed it up.

For one, Jesus singled out the child that said "you are the boss" and gave that child a compliment, "I tell you you are blessed, flesh and blood did not reveal that to you but my father in heaven."

You didn't do that but instead immediately threatened them with discipline.

And Jesus went further. He then renamed that child. You are rock and upon this rock.

Whereas you said, you are "MY KIDS" and upon this rock I will discipline you.


Meaning upon MY authority, I did not hand it over to them. I hand it on to them. I am STILL the Rock of their discipline.

Yeah, and the context of your statement is clear.

And so is the context of Jesus blessing. Jesus said Simon you are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my church. It follows logically that Jesus was talking to and about Simon.

To make your example fit the reality, your example should go something like this:
Child, you are so right and because you are right, I will give you an extra helping of ice cream.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I don't dispute that. Jesus did call Peter the foundation stone or rock.

He called him a stone. Niot a foundation stone (scripture says that is Jesus).


Rock and stone mean the same thing.

No they don't. First, note that even in your definition (for which you give no source or credit) there is a differentiation given in size, and in the Greek, the word by which Jesus calls Peter can be either a "stone" or a "piece of a rock" (which is one definition in English for a stone). A piece of a rock cannot be the rock.

Yep a stone is lesser than a rock by definition.
And when you get Prudential insurance you have A PIECE of the ROCK You don't have the whole company

Not sure anyone will read this but I will start with replying to post#8



Jesus inquired of the disciples.
Simon responded.
Jesus commends Simon for his response. Jesus says that Simon's response was inspired by God the Father.

Jesus replied or told those that were present that Our Father in Heaven reveals the Truth of what Simon spoke. Jesus has placed "all honor" to His Father in Heaven for what Simon spoke. As it should be!



Jesus then rewards Simon by designating Simon as His representative.

Jesus then told Peter and those present what the (rock) (note the lower case r) from the True Rock, would be in building Christ' church. Christ said," I will build upon this rock" Honor and credit remains in the hands of Christ. As it should be!



I believe TJ already listed all the times that God has been called the Rock in Scripture.

Tj did indeed give all honor and credit to Christ.. A true child of God will do this. God has revealed this Truth to Tj.



By renaming Simon, "Peter", Jesus is designating him His representative.
This is not something new. God has assigned men to represent Him in the past. Chief amongst these representatives of God is Moses:

The disciples were ministers of Truth revealed by God unto a (rock) that would declare "Christ the Rock," the foundation of what Christ' church is established. Today Christ is the promise land of eternity.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Moses was a different time frame, that was before Christ. And Moses followed the law of the Old covenant. He lead Israel out, as God commanded, from under Pharao. God has all honor and credit for what Moses did! God parted the sea... God put into the mind of Pharao that Moses was a god.

Exodux 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. KJV

Let's take Aaron path Moses' brother, who as a Levite priest put in charge of the Lord's house ( 1 Chronicles 23:32) 1 Chronicles 24 listed the sons of Aaron. 24:2 tells us Aaron's sons Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest's office. 24:4 chief men are these sons, and their sons. There was 24 in total number, priesthood sons divided into the sanctuary. They are listed as according to services for the house of the Lord 1 Chronicles 24:7-19. Levite priests under the rule King of Israel, David.

Easy to follow details in the Word of God so that we indeed are foretold all things concerning the ministering of the Lord's House.

As you get to know these facts of the priesthood also note other family members like the daughters of Aaron : Christ will come through Aaron's heritage priesthood of Levites to claim His throne. Christ is the Key of David, the Root of David that prevailed. This is all detailed in scripture, so there is no question forever means forever. Christ does not hand Himself off,his kingdom there shall be no end. Christ does tell the disciples the ministering they will do, by proclaiming His Truth as said in John 1:17. Christ has always shown honor unto His Father, the Lord God that gave Him the throne of his father David.

Note: Priesthood of Aaron and His daughters

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth.

Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli, (continued heritage 24-26-27-28-29-30-31-32-33-34-35-36-37 Luke 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.




This verse is what lets us know that the office of Peter is a continuing office. The keys designate an office of vicar. Let us compare to Isaias 22:22 where perhaps you will recognize the language.

22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.
And note the power that is associated with this office. God confirms in heaven, this man's decisions on earth.


Isaish 22:15-25 Described as: Israel Judgement and Mercy & Verse 20-24 Eliakim

Isaish 22:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:

Neh 11:11 Seraiah the son of Hilkiah, the son of Meshullam, the son of Zadok, the son of Meraioth, the son of Ahitub, [was] the ruler of the house of God.

Neh 12:7 Sallu, Amok, Hilkiah, Jedaiah. These [were] the chief of the priests and of their brethren in the days of Jeshua.

Isaish 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open

Verse 22:22 which shows the fulfillment culminates in Messiah, the same that Rev 3:7 has declared to the church of Philadelphia

Isaish 22:24-25 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that [was] upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

.Verse 22:24 is the direct and collateral issue and embraces his offspring, his entire kindred of offspring.

Big Problem: Are you implying that somehow the catholic church could be this church? The last I knew catholic priests did not marry, so catholic priests have no sons or seeds of offspring?

But if God tells you that you are Rock and gives you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and tells you that what you lock He will lock and what you loose He will loose, and if you see that this is written in Scripture, will you believe Him?

Scripture tells us that Jesus said this of Simon. We believe Scripture.

No I disagree totally.. And I have shown scripture and the exact detail that God has put forth to bring Christ to us. And I will offer another detail that examples' Peter as a mortal person with little faith.

Matthew 14:26-27 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.

Matthew 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.


Matthew 14:29 And Jesus said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

Matthew 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink[/B], he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

[B]Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth [his] hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

~The Rock Walks on Water

Jesus is telling the disciples that He will build the church on the great confession of faith that Peter had just made; namely, "You are the Christ. The Son of the Living God". Who ever believes this with their heart and life is a part of His church.

Then Jesus gives to the church the authority to forgive sins ( or bind the sins of the impenetent) of those who are the church. This authority did not belong to men, whether one man or hundreds of them. It belong to the one church over which Christ alone rules.

There is a difference in the words in the Bible about who or what is being built. The Greek word used for "Peter" is "petros" - the masculine gender for "rock". After calling Peter this, Jesus says He(Jesus) will build His church on the "petra" - the feminine form of that word.

A few moments after this Peter makes a very negative confession of his faith by telling Jesus that He CAN'T go to Jerusalem to be killed(and fulfill His purpose for coming into the world). Then Jesus has a word not given to anyone who is to be the future builder of His church: "Get behind me satan".

Sndbay:


Post #8 -By renaming Simon, "Peter", Jesus is designating him His representative. This is not something new. God has assigned men to represent Him in the past. Chief amongst these representatives of God is Moses:

The disciples were ministers of Truth revealed by God unto a (rock) that would declare "Christ the Rock," the foundation of what Christ' church is established. Today Christ is the promise land of eternity.

Big Problem: Are you implying that somehow the catholic church could be this church? The last I knew catholic priests did not marry, so catholic priests have no sons or seeds of offspring?

How is it that "grace and truth" become the promise land of eternity? How were the disciple ministers of Truth? No, I think the big problem is the lack of discipline in interpretation of the Scriptures such as that found within the Catholic Church. (You know, once a Protestant once complained that I didn’t capitalize the P in Protestant that it was a mark of disrespect both for him and for his faith. He went a step further, he said that it was a mark of a man’s ignorance and immaturity. With shame, I could only agree. )

[De Maria - You might want to read this and perhaps help me flush out all the various scriptural metaphors, Christ the fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant. Maybe you know of this, but I was amazed. I started following up a lead our Parish Priest gave us in Mass. This is a good example of how Catholic discipline in scriptural reading brings about a fullness of faith.]

No the 12 were not ministers of truth. They were much much more! Not simply representatives of the 12 tribes. Bigger than that! The Apostles were the “loaves of proposition” Unlike the Leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, these twelve were the only loaves that the Son of David, The Messiah, found within his temple. (Cf. 1 Sam 21:6). As you remember David went to the high priest Achimelech for bread. The only bread was the “proposition loaves.” These loves were unleavened, uncommon bread; the holy bread to be consumed (metaphoric vision of the real presence in the Eucharist - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm) )

"Bread of the faces", i.e. "bread of the presence (of Yahweh)" (Exodus 35:13; 39:35, etc.), also called "holy bread" (1 Samuel 21:6), "bread of piles" (1 Chronicles 9:32; 23:29), "continual bread" (Numbers 4:7), or simply "bread" (Hebrew Version, Exodus 11:23). ’ártoi tês prothéseos, "loaves of the setting forth" (Exodus 35:13; 39:35, etc.) which the Latin Vulgate also adopts in its uniform translation panes propositionis, whence the English expression "loaves of proposition", as found in the Douay and Reims versions (Exodus 35:13, etc.; Matthew 12:4; Mark 2:26; Luke 6:4). The Protestant versions have "shewbread" The loaves of bread spoken of here formed the most important sacrificial offering prescribed by the Mosaic Law. (New Advent) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Loaves of Proposition (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09317b.htm)

In Exodus 40 we see the tabernacle (the residence of God) has been set up. A veil or curtain separates the ark from the priests. Loaves of bread were stacked in front of the curtain in two stakes of 6 (12 loaves) in the presence of God. The loaves were in the presence of God, hence the name presence-bread.

“And Moses did all that the Lord had commanded …And he set the table in the tabernacle of the testimony, at the north side, without the veil, 21 Setting there in order the loaves of proposition, as the Lord had commanded Moses”

If we hold that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament then each and everything he did should be related to the temple. So, we see the 12 Apostles “in the presence of God;” the holiest of sacrifices in the temple; bread made of wheat sieved multiple times, i.e. separation of wheat and tars. I’m sure you can find other metaphoric comparisons to the Mosaic Law. It seems to me that one most important is that the first time the tabernacle the 12 loaves were in the presence of God, and when He held the bread Christ said at the last supper “this is my body,” the twelve holy loves were present – facing God, “face bread”. The loaves were to be consumed by the people every time they preached; they nourish the masses with the body and blood of Christ. Still further, at the end of their time, new freshly baked loaves were replaced, with new “.

In conclusion, for me, this adds a new dimension to standing before the tabernacle at church. When we partake of the “real presence” we are participating in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Christ is truly present in any sense you want to consider; being sacrifice of both the Old Testament and the New. What is happening in Matthew 16 is THE MOST important sacrificial exposure of the bread (Apostles) to the Face of God. Only after Peter confessed was he open to the presence of God; who was Most Holy Sacrificial Lamb. Thus when Christ says, “That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” The intent is crystal clear to 12 Jewish Apostles. Christ was God, Peter was to be the head of the Church – that same church called by the world the, “Roman Catholic Church,” but whose proper name is the Church of Jesus Christ.

JoeT

Sndbay:

“That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” The intent is crystal clear to 12 Jewish Apostles. Christ was God, Peter was to be the head of the Church – that same church called by the world the, “Roman Catholic Church,” but whose proper name is the Church of Jesus Christ.

JoeT




I didn't capitalize the P in Protestant that it was a mark of disrespect both for him and for his faith. He went a step further, he said that it was a mark of a man's ignorance and immaturity. With shame, I could only agree.

If trivial punctuation is of great importance and respect for you head of shame, then I suggest you go back and capitalize bread, for you insist it is the real presence of Christ. I am not impressed with your attempt to discredit me or judge my integrity. Your grasp for power and authoriy is NOT the issue in this discussion.


The holy chamber at that moment was open to everyone permanently, the veil was opened throught Christ !

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Hebrews 7:14-16 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.


Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7:19-22 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath [he was made priest]: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


John 21:16 JESUS saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. JESUS saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

This BREAD is the Word, the Truth, the Grace of God

John 17:21 JESUS saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. JESUS saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Proclaim the Truth "CHRIST the SAVIOUR"

~child of GOD

Not from the context. Jesus says, Simon, you are blessed of my Father, therefore you are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church.

Why would Jesus change subjects mid stream? Why would Jesus after declaring Himself the Rock, then go on to give Peter the keys and declare that he could lock and unlock?

Its obvious, that Jesus gave Simon the name that reflected the office which he was receiving. He renamed him Rock because Simon would now be Jesus' representative on this earth.

Sincerely,

De Maria
Jesus is the Rock.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

Deuteronomy 32:18
Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,And have forgotten the God who fathered you.

1 Samuel 2:2
“No one is holy like the LORD,For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:47
“The LORD lives!Blessed be my Rock! Let God be exalted, The Rock of my salvation!

Psalm 18:31
For who is God, except the LORD?And who is a rock, except our God?

Isaiah 8:14
He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
There are many verses which speak of the Rock Who is Jesus. I suggest you do a word study.

Jesus is the Rock. Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, His work is perfect;For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Deuteronomy 32:4 The works of God are perfect, and all his ways are judgments: God is faithful and without any iniquity, he is just and right.
Deuteronomy 32:18 18 Thou hast forsaken the God that begot thee, and hast forgotten the Lord that created thee.
How is this the same “ROCK” discussed In Matt 16.
These are differences translation between King James Version and the Douay-Rheims. What's being expressed here isn't that Christ is the “Rock” in Matt 16. However, Christ was strong like a rock from which the water pours forth like the rock of Horeb (Exodus 17:5-7; Numbers 20:10-11; Psalm 104:41) And would this water be related to baptism?


1 Samuel 2:2
“No one is holy like the LORD,For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.
2 Samuel 22:47
“The LORD lives!Blessed be my Rock! Let God be exalted, The Rock of my salvation!
These are also translated quite differently. They hold no bearing on the Rock being discussed in Matt 16


Psalm 18:31
For who is God, except the LORD?And who is a rock, except our God?
Once again, not the Rock on which the Church is built.


Isaiah 8:14
He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
This is a prophecy of Christ that will be sanctification for venial sins and mortal sins. It's funny that Isaiah should talk of small sins and large sins? Isn't it your view that sin – any sin, any kind, any fault – is death of the soul? But why do we have a discussion of such things a hundreds of years before the Catholic Church?


There are many verses which speak of the Rock Who is Jesus. I suggest you do a word study.

But, I don't know of any other verse where Christ gives one of his disciples another name. Do you?

There are a few verses that talk of Christ as a Rock, but only in the sense of strength. But for a moment lets say Jesus is the Rock referred to in Matt 16:18

The verse as written; Matt 16:18 And I say to thee [Simon]: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

In the plain language of today, the simple meaning of the verse 18 becomes: because this was revealed to you by God, I will call you Peter (which means rock) and on this Rock of faith I will build my church; hell won't prevail against it. And because my identity as the Messiah was revealed to you by God I'll give you the key to heaven.

Now we'll redo in plain language of today with Christ as a Rock: because this was revealed to you by God, I will call you Peter (which means rock) and on ME (or on My Faith) I will build my church; hell won't prevail against it. And because my identity as the Messiah was revealed to you by God I'll give you the key to heaven.

The second rendition just doesn't make plain sense, its contorted. Why would Christ build a Church on Himself because Peter had a revelation from God as to Christ's identity? Secondly, again in the second version, why would Christ build a Church on Himself and give Peter the Keys? Thirdly, if the intent was for Christ to build a Church, why not say, I'm the Messiah as it was revealed to you Simon, therefore I'm building a Church - why even mention turning Simon into a Rock?

JoeT


Note
In response to objections from others
(Those following this post)

[ Insofar as I'm able to discern, based on the knowledge of those fluent in Greek and Latin, the differences between the KJV and the Douay-Rheims are not major. Only a few verses in the KJV give a different understanding. That's why I feel free to use a KJV to get a more rounded sense of a verse. My reason for mentioning the Scriptural differences was to point out differences here, as elsewhere in my response, of cases referring to Christ as a Rock is related to his strength. Furthermore, when compared with a Rock it referrers to Christ's founding of doctrinal precepts; as it where knowledge pouring forth baptismal waters from Christ's strength refreshing the people of Israel, e.g., Exodus 17:5 And the Lord said to Moses: Go before the people, and take with thee of the ancients of Israel: and take in thy hand the rod wherewith thou didst strike the river, and go. 6 Behold I will stand there before thee, upon the rock Horeb, and thou shalt strike the rock, and water shall come out of it that the people may drink. This doctrinal foundation is shown in 1 Cor 3:11-12 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. NKJV

An often missed significance in Matthew 16 is Christ's declaration, Matt 16:17 “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona:” We only see such blessings conveyed in one other location, but not by Christ, rather by an angel: “blessed art thou among women.” This blessing went to Mary, the Mother of God. Are we to assume that Peter didn't know of this? Are we to assume that this blessing made to Mary, the “handmaid” of God, would not in the same sense make Peter, the primary servant of Christ? And what significance are we to make of this blessing that came out of Christ's own mouth? That this was just some utterance, a use of metaphors, a courteous remark? Would it not be safe to assume that what Christ blesses stays blessed? How does our eye pass so freely across the words “blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona” without stopping to wonder at the significance that's found nowhere else in the New Testament? Aren't you envious, aren't you just a bit envious? Peter is the only one in history blessed by Christ himself? But, such envy can only be appeased when you come to the understanding that in the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, you share that blessing. By making ourselves “servants” of the Church, we in turn make ourselves, subjects of the Church whose head is the vicar (earthly representative) of Christ; and as such sharing in that one and only blessing uttered by Christ. You might not be awed, others who write in this thread might not be awed, but for me and mine, I want a piece of that blessing uttered by Christ. Therefore, to ease everyone's mind about me leaving the Church of Jesus Christ; don't worry, God willing, I will continue living as a Roman Catholic!]

JoeT

How is this the same “ROCK” discussed In Matt 16.
These are differences translation between King James Version and the Douay-Rheims.

It is not that simple for you, though I agree that there are serious translation issues with the Douay-Rheims. The original Greek words disagree with you.



However, Christ was strong like a rock from which the water pours forth like the rock of Horeb (Exodus 17:5-7; Numbers 20:10-11; Psalm 104:41) And would this water be related to baptism?

No. If you want to understand baptism, you need to study the mikveh. But that is a different topic for a different thread.


These are also translated quite differently. They hold no bearing on the Rock being discussed in Matt 16

They bear a great deal of bearing on the topic since the NT tells us that it is one and the same Rock.


Once again, not the Rock on which the Church is built.

If your church is not built on a foundation of Christ, then you should leave it.

1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

See the added note on my previous post

See the added note on my previous post

But Joe, you keep claiming that Peter means Rock, and it doesn't. If you base a doctrine on a false belief so basic as that, then your whole doctrine and beliefs about what your denomination is falls apart.

YEP I DO believe that we HAVE established that Jesus is the rock and Peter was a piece of the rock. I know my mom & dad were not THE Prudential company when they 'owned a piece of the rock'

YEP I DO believe that we HAVE established that Jesus is the rock and Peter was a piece of the rock. I know my mom & dad were not THE Prudential company when they 'owned a piece of the rock'


Too true, too true. That's why I'm Catholic. I'm graced with a piece of the Rock. Who needs Prudential!

JoeT

Too true, too true. That’s why I’m Catholic. I’m graced with a piece of the Rock. Who needs Prudential!
JoeT

I have assurance of salvation through the grace of the one and only ROCK. Not just a piece of the rock, but the ROCK Himself.

I have assurance of salvation through the grace of the one and only ROCK. Not just a piece of the rock, but the ROCK Himself.

I AGREE... Tj3 is proclaiming Christ.. The Rock.. Forever and Ever.. Amen

Scripture tells us many times that Christ is the Rock.
How do you ignore that fact?
And if you are not ignoring it, how do you explain not believing it?

Secondly Christ is not handing over His throne, power, and authority. Scripture tells us, Christ Jesus' forever.. King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

Details of this is written again and again in scripture. Scripture is intended as The Truth, proclaiming Jesus, NOT Peter.

How do you ignore what is written as an example of Peter?

It is Jesus who is saying, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Do you question or ignore what Christ says?

It is written His sheep hear His voice and follow!.. Who do we follow? Christ!

Jesus is trying to tell us not to doubt the Truth.

Matthew 14:26-27 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
Matthew 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. Matthew 14:29 And Jesus said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
Matthew 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth [his] hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Who reached out? Jesus

Who saved Peter? Jesus

Who had little faith? Peter

~The Rock Walks on Water

I believe that the Catholic Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate.
The trouble with the Latin Vulgate, is that the Latin does not have a very good range of words to translate Greek into Latin, and the same problem from Latin to English.
The best translations are directly from the original languages.
William Tyndale translated a version of the Bible that was a direct translation of the Hebrew and Greek.
Tyndale could read and write in a number of languages.
He, being a student of Greek and Hebrew, also wrote in the manner of the culture of the time of Jesus and Old Testament times.
He was the first person to write an English New Testament.
It really is a good version to read, but a bit hard to find.
He was strangled and burnt in 1535.

Cheers :)

I believe that the Catholic Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate.
The trouble with the Latin Vulgate, is that the Latin does not have a very good range of words to translate Greek into Latin, and the same problem from Latin to English.
The best translations are directly from the original languages.

Peter,

If you are referring to the Douay-Rheims, I think that you are right. We have seen a number of quotes from the DR translation on here which have been in error, and as you suggested, each time you translate, additional inaccuracies arise, which may be worse depending upon what languages you are translating between.

One very prominent error in the DR translation is the first prophecy of the coming of Christ in Genesis 3:15:

Gen 3:15
15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
DR

Here is how it reads in NKJV

Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."
NKJV

A small change in words, but it takes the prophecy from saying that Jesus is the one to defeat Satan, and effectively makes it Mary.

Cogs,

I checked Greek translation. Jesus called Peter as Petros which means a piece of rock while Jesus told him He's going to build His church in Petra which means a mass of rock. Petra does not obviously mean Peter.

Also, Matthew 7:25, shows what type of rock should a "house" be built. The word used is Petra.

In I Timothy 3:15, the church is called the house of God.

Therefore, the church should be built upon a Petra and not Petros.

Parallelism:
If you could also notice what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 "upon THIS rock". I believe this is parallel with John 2:19-21.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy THIS temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Attacks on others demonation faith ( and most wrong)

Thread closed