Why does a seemingly innocent conversation about religious beliefs so often turn into an argument or fight, and sometimes even deteriorate into name-calling, postering, etc? Most religions follow some version of the Golden Rule, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Why then is it so hard to be kind, patient, understanding, etc, with people who share beliefs different from your own? I mean shouldn't that be a priority?

Orange,

It is because I think, the same as it ever was. Religion would rather argue about healing, while faith gets it done.
When Jesus was in the Temple he was "sabbotaged" because He was doing the healing on a Saturday or Sabbath. Now I ask you... What is more important. That the man be healed of his infirmity, or that it was Saturday?

Religion to most is a passion. And there are many places where one faith can conflict with other major principles. And religion is not actually do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It is do good to others no matter what they do unto you.

But the real issue of religion is salvation, not behavior, since the bible tells us we all we have trouble in behavior from time to time. It is the basis for the relgion that can cuase the issues.

I'd like to add more:
Why is it that people relate with so much passion to religions?
Is it because of their love to God?
Partly, probably yes.
But, could it be pride as well?
Sometimes I see it like children fighting for the parent's attention.
In any case, I agree with Fr Chuck about doing good to others, that's one thing, but in our religion, there is also"don't do to others what you won't like having it done to yourself".
Please don't forget that many wars along the history were supposed to be "in the name of God" - including what's going on right now around the world.
But aren't religions being exploited in these ways for material reasons ?
I can't see in these cases anything to do with love of God, surely nothing of what I understand is the spirit of God or the scriptures which bear His name.
Bye,
Millie

It is hard I guess for some, but for example: There are some who label one religious group as evil just because there are some bad stories about a few members and when labelling them all evil in my opinion that person is just asking for trouble. The only reason I mention this is from an experience on this board talking about Catholics.

For me personally, I enjoy conversing about all kinds of religions and denominations and always have been interested in talking about these things and name calling is not right but we all probably have done it at one time or another and like the others have mentioned. The Passion that goes along with belief gets the best of some people.

Joe

The Passion that goes along with belief gets the best of some people.

Joe

Yes, but sometimes, it brings out the worst!
In any case, I agree that the first thing (in all aspects of life) is to keep an open mind. I value very much open minded persons.
Millie
:)

I too admire open-minded people. Or at least, if you can't be open-minded, such as my Orthodox in-laws, you can at least be kind. They are very kind and compassionate people.

They are very kind and compassionate people.


Dear, that credit trap again!
But any way:
I'd rather have compassion make "the world go round"
I guess thae Dalai Lama preaches something like this, forgive me if it's my privet interpretation
Shouldn't you be asleep?
Are you all right?
Millie
A million :)

Mans history is full of one group trying to change another group. In the old days it was about the best trade routes or amassing as much money and power that they could get their greedy hands on. Religion was and still is used to keep control of the masses and the leaders are always urging the lower classes or poor to do their bidding in the name of God. Even Christianity went through its period of grabbing land and power with their holy wars and inquisitions and all in the name of God. Europeans where notorious in the middle ages for having kings as the head of the religion all to keep power over the masses and power in their hands. The conquest of many western lands and Africa where through conversion of the heathen by missionaries spreading the word. They stayed poor and the mother country got rich. Slaves where denied there religion and language so master could use their labor to enrich himself and build a nation. So you see religion for whatever reason has been used through out history to enrich the few on the backs of the many. No wonder we get excited about the religion we follow cause then we can say everyone else is misguide or just plain wrong! Everyone wants to belong to something and if they don't like the way your hat sits on your head then they can always build a church and get a name and call you a misguided heathen. Wouldn't that make you mad?:cool: :eek:

As you probably can see I hate religion and what it does but follow Good Orderly Direction as I understand it in my life.:cool: :)

Hi, Orange,
At 64 yrs old, I still remember my grandfather (grandpa) telling me that if you want to start an argument, starting talking about either religion or politics! That goes back at least 162 years, combined ages. He was 98 when he passed away.
I am sure it goes back even farther, such as over 2,000 years ago, when denominations first started forming; not agreeing with each other. It still exists today, with certain groups breaking off from one denomination, starting their own Churches. Arguments are from how to be Saved, to other beliefs that are different.
Even more argument comes from those not associated with any Religious or Spiritual beliefs. The same is true for Politics; some of the most outspoken do not even vote!

I think part of the problem, at least with religion, is the nature of some religions that non believers need to be saved. Some religions have a mandate to convert anyone not of their religion. I think Judiasm is the only one of the major religions that doesn't have that mandate.

But with that mandate comes a fervor and zeal for making the non-believer "see the light". Christianity has particularly been guilty of this throughout its history. The paradox is that on one hand religions talk of brotherhood and love, the other hand denies it. The message is often love one another as long as they are like us.

I completely agree.
Tat least as it do for judaism, I know they make it very difficult - they want o make sure the person who wishes to convert really means it and knows it's full meaning.
As for the "salvation" thing: I think it's deplorable that salvation should be presented as something dependent on the way one is worship God - his religion - instead of the one one behaves towards others.
Bye,
Millie

tat least as it do for judaism, I know they make it very difficult - they want o make sure the person who wishes to convert really means it and knows it's full meaning.

Yes I remember my father-in-law saying that's traditional to discourage and turn a potential convert away three times. If they come back the fourth time and still want to convert to Judaism, the rabbi will talk to them. And even after that it takes much study before you are allowed to convert.


as for the "salvation" thing: I think it's deplorable that salvation should be presented as something dependent on the way one is worship God - his religion - instead of the one one behaves towards others.
Bye,
Millie

I have a lot of trouble with this too, Millie. I could understand having the two together - worship of G-d and behaving well towards others, but if you only worship G-d and how you behave towards others doesn't matter, then that makes absolutely no sense to me. It's so far removed from anything I've ever been taught. I know the nuns at my boarding school always told us we should be kind and compassionate to everyone, regardless of who they were, or how they treated us.

I I know the nuns at my boarding school always told us we should be kind and compassionate to everyone, regardless of who they were, or how they treated us.
Right - for me, that's the meaning of being human, and having God in your heart!
Hag Sameah!
Millie :)

i think it's deplorable that salvation should be presented as something dependent on the way one is worship God - his religion - instead of the one one behaves towards others.
Bye,
Millie

AMEN! I was born on NYC's Lower East Side and grew up there until just before I reached my teens. At the time it was a true melting pot with people from all sorts of backgrounds. We went to temple at the Brotherhood Synagogue in Greenwich Village. This synagogue shared the building with an Episcopal Church. On Saturdays, they held Sabbath services, on Sundays, Mass.

Such a background left me with a belief that the key was not how one worshipped but how one behaved. I believe strongly in what is referred to as the Judeo-Christian ethic, which is based on the "Golden Rule" and the Ten Commandments. As long as one lives a life in accordance to that ethic then they have nothing to fear if there is an after life.

That sounds kind of like my current neighborhood, Scott. Of course it's not as cool as New York, haha, but we have a mosque, syngogue, Sikh Temple and 4 Christian churches all within proximity to each other. There's also a joint community centre that everyone shares. And four times a year, multi-faith services are held and attended by people from all the religious communities, in the interests of peace and understanding.

A

Such a background left me with a belief that the key was not how one worshipped but how one behaved. I believe strongly in what is referred to as the Judeo-Christian ethic, which is based on the "Golden Rule" and the Ten Commandments. As long as one lives a life in accordance to that ethic then they have nothing to fear if there is an after life.
As all already know, I also grew up in a Christian country (Romania) until I was 12. We had wonderful relationships with our neighbors, though as a child I remember having "tasted" antisemitism twice (it's not much in 12 years)
These didn't make me angry, just sad. And coming from a nation who's been persecuted for ages, my parents were prisoners in German concentration camps during WW2, made me be more sensitive and acceptant to people who are'nt like me.
As for the Ten Commandments:
I keep saying, and I truly believe it: whatever is needed in order to be human and to have a healthy society is said there, loud and clear.
Since the last bomb in Tel Aviv yesterday, I've been thinking about hate and it's "culture"
If I have time tomorrow, I'll write it on my computer and then share these thoughts with all of you.
Hag Sameah!
Millie:)

BUMP

I hope it's okay for me to bump this thread (if not, mods feel free to move or remove it!). Since I've asked this question a couple of months back, there's still been a lot of fighting about religion and religious beliefs, rather than friendly discussion. And I'm still interested to hear what people have to say about my original question. Thanks.

I think its different for a lot of people...

For some its pride, for some its fear, for some its just ignorance, and for some its all three and more.

Right before a breakthru or an epiphany, there is a state of dillusion or confusion even. When someone's reality is tested and pushed to its very edge, they will show resistance by shutting down, closing themselves off, getting defensive, resorting to childlike behavior, etc. If the pushing continues in the right way, the right context, and the right time, an epiphany or breakthru is possible... disco! However, if not, the subject will likely bounce back even harder and may be even more closed off to the new idea than they were before. In this case, the defense mechanism I mentioned early will happen more quick and more often.. its like they have been toughened... defense mechanisms have strengthened.. now, its more difficult to create that breakthru.

Wow that's a really interesting theory, DrJizzle... defense mechanisms. I never thought of it in that context before, but it sounds really plausible. Especially if your beliefs or faith form the whole basis for your life.

Anyway thanks so much for sharing! I couldn't give you any rep. Guess I already gave you some today! :p

Orange, I think a lot of what is said in this thread is true. I think pride has a lot to do with it on both sides. I also think a little of zeal for God or their belief system and thinking they are doing or saying the right thing.

As far as Christians feeling the need or mandate to convert is true. They way it should be done, however, is more by action than by words. Preaching and talking is needed, but if it isn't backed up by "good" action than it is worthless. There is a saying "Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works".

I think the main problem is everyone is fighting for their rights to be able to say what they want to say and in doing so takes away someone else's rights by saying you can't say that. To me that is pride clear and simple.

There was a case on TV today that a validvictorian (sorry about the spelling) got cut off her speech because she wanted to say that God got her where she was. This is in no way infringing on anyone's beliefs. Why can't she say this? SHe feels this to be true and no one can deny this. They wouldn't have cut her off if she said Joe Shmoe got her there. Everyone cheered and then when they cut her off everyone booed. To me that is pride of the school district of not checking into the matter of whether this is permissiable. As soon as God is mentioned automatically that denies their free speech. In case anyone wants to debate this, there are many cases that the decision of the school district was overturned because it was unconstitutional to deny them of their free speech to mention God in their speech.

Great answer, Jduke! I think pride has a lot to do with it too... it takes humility to back down and not try to be "better" and "right" all the time. And I most heartily agree that actions speak louder than words. Actually I feel sorry for people who share their religious beliefs and then ultimately get nasty and defensive about them. To me being nasty and intolerant cancels out anything you've said about your beliefs. Anyone can "talk the talk" but "walking the walk" is the hard part.

That's really sad about the valedictorian. She should have been allowed to mention her beliefs. I agree it's a violation of free speech and intolerant. I think things have gotten way out of hand as far as restricting beliefs, not allowing holiday celebrations in schools, etc. I like what our city has done, actually; rather than remove all beliefs from public schools, at holiday times, Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan, etc... are all mentioned and celebrated in the schools by the kids. So that way no kids feel left out, and they all get to learn about others and learn tolerance, too.

Anyway thanks for a great answer!

Respect for others is a tough concept for some folks. People erroneously think that if they treat someone badly, it reflects on the someone treated badly and not on themselves, which is absurd. Another good one is if they are mad, they think if they can make someone else angry, they will have in essence given away their anger, which is silly since it just makes two mad people instead! Denial is not the exclusive domain of alkies and addicts, I am sorry to report, LOL.

As to why people like to play "my god's bigger than your god" - I would guess has roots in the original "my daddy's bigger than your daddy" and that, I believe is all about a very important topic: SURVIVAL!

Hence all the energy on it.

Some people threaten more easily than others, and the rest of us have been tested and know. :p

From talking with different people of different religions, faiths, etc. My experience seems to be that as soon as you mention something that someone else doesn't agree with or believe in, believes in the opposite they take offense to it as questioning their belief system - not just their religion, and in their nature they must rise up and defend themselves as you would if you were under attack.

There is a way to have a non-violent (verbal or otherwise) conversation about religion, but BOTH or ALL sides must be open-minded and learn to accept or at the very least hear the other sides out.

I see so many arguments between different groups, but what surprises me the most is those that are religious and we'll take Christians, but they are not alone. Christians will fight and defend their beliefs to no end, and that's good, but the bad is when they get stuck or can't answer a question, instead of going "you know, I never thought of like that, I don't know the answer, but let me find out what the church believes or "here's what I believe" they resort to calling the person who questioned their beliefs names, and some nasty names.

Also I'm not sure there's a true neutral medium in religion. Because regardless of what you say, no matter how hard you try to stay neutral you'll be speaking on your beliefs or the beliefs of a religion that you follow.

Example: I have had many conversations with religious folks, with non-religious folks and with atheists. I'd be part of the non-religious group, and hesitate to solidify with one specific non-religious group, but I'm not an atheist. I can discuss religion for as long as we want to, but one of us usually gets tired and wants to stop the conversation. More times than not the religious person to conclude, or if they have not an answer
"Well that maybe, but the bible is the word of the lord, you can't argue with that."

In which I actually tell them I can and if they'd like to know why. But two problems here, using the word argue they've now moved into a more aggressive. Because now it's a you say, I say.

The atheist usually says something like: Well, you can believe want you want to believe, but there is no God, and no holy book and I have proof why."

Well, Science hasn't proven there is no God, Science has yet to disprove it. On the same count religious folks have yet to prove there's a god. I understand that a lot Christians accept and trust that there is a God need not proof - that's fine, but then they can't continually say that truly is a God. Belief and Truth are not the same.

Where I usually conclude with "Well, I think God would want acceptance and this/that over religion"

So who's right and who's wrong? Okay, trick question - No one is wrong, and everyone is right, or everyone is wrong and no one is right. The bottom line no one knows...

Wait... before I continue Think back to the start of this - Do you agree with everything I'm saying, part of it or any of it? Probably not.

That there lies the problem, because I'm speaking on personal beliefs mixed with the beliefs that I have associate with in different religions, and experiences. Just as your beliefs personal or otherwise will influence how defend and/or how to discuss religion.

We can only speak form our own experiences and what our heart truly tells us. You have a choice to become part of religion, it might be a subconscious choice or a one made clear, but regardless if you are or are not religious or if you do or don't believe in God or multiple Gods it's hard to be neutral because of the beliefs you already have and the length and depth of the discussion.