I once worked in an apartment building New York City where I met this Jewish gentleman who always requested that we press the elevator button for him and open his apartment door because if he did it it would mean that he had worked and he was sinning. Is this an official belief Jewish community or is it a misunderstanding on this person's part?

That's more than simple misunderstanding... it's extreme superstition.

Hi,
Sounds like the person just wants to feel important; having others do things for him! I don't think this comes under "sinning", for any religion!

Please forgive the above post, it shows a lack of understanding of other religions.

I know a few Jews who have different levels of orthodox observance. Even among themselves the debate is endless as to what contitute "work" on the Sabbath.

Over the years I've heard a variety of the debates over what is work and what is not... but never so extreme as opening a door or pushing a button.

Those extremes make me wonder if the guy would say he's not allowed to eat: to open a box of something, turn on his stove, press Start on a microwave, etc...
... or how about relieving himself: unzip his zipper
Flush his toilet? (press the flush lever)
Brush his teeth? (squeeze the tube).

... ok, I'll leave the poor fella alone now.

Hopefully a Jewish member will pipe in on this one.

HI,
I do apologize if I have "shown a lack of understanding of other religions". However, with that apology in mind, and maybe not even needed at all, can anyone shed some light on just specifically what religion or spiritual belief is there that specifically says "pushing an elevator button" or "opening a door" is "sinning"?
Thank you.

Please forgive the above post, it shows a lack of understanding of other religions.

I know a few Jews who have different levels of orthodox observance. Even among themselves the debate is endless as to what contitute "work" on the Sabbath.
I totally agree with this sentiment.
For some ultra Orthodox jews, even turning on a light switch is forbidden during the Sabbath as it is against their holy laws.

Ok, I see the point. Pardon me if I've gone too far to make light of "religious" practices. :(

In my faith we have what's called superstition: In short it's taking a good thing, or even a doctrine, too far. I wonder if this is the case.

For the always wondering side of me I'd love to see an official pronouncement of a religion [branch of Judaism] that prohibits such things as these.

fredg,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabat

http://www.practicingourfaith.org/prct_keeping.html

http://www.ou.org/publications/kaplan/shabbat/39.htm

The third one is neat in that it gives some examples for each of the 39 prohibited categories.

But nowhere do we find prohibitions of the likes of opening a door or pushing a button.

I once worked in an apartment building New York City where I met this Jewish gentleman who always requested that we press the elevator button for him and open his apartment door because if he did it it would mean that he had worked and he was sinning. Is this an official belief Jewish community or is it a misunderstanding on this person's part?

The reason for this is that there is a prohibition against creating a spark on the Sabbath. I'm not sure if this is an interpretation or specifically mentioned. It may stem from the Exodus 16:23 where it said "bake that which ye will bake today", meaning before the Sabbath.Therefore pushing the elevator button would involve using electricity, creating a spark. Opening his apartment door seems going too far and I'm not sure why he wouldn't do that. But any use of electricity is forbidden. But many apartment buildings that have a number of orthodox Jews will set elevators to stop at every floor during the Sabbath.

To Rick:
This is NOT superstitution anymore that eating the wafer is. Its an interpetation of Bible.

Yes this person would not turn on his stove or microwave. Nor would he watch TV or listen to a radio. He WOULD walk to temple.


Edited:
Just looked at Need's Wikipedia link and that details it. It lists 39 activities that the Talmud (not the Bible) prohibits on the Sabbath. Kindling a fire is listed as #37. Ergo creating a spark.

This is NOT superstitution anymore that eating the wafer is. Its an interpetation of Bible.

Hmm. What does that have to do with the question?. or even my comment?

We have a question as to whether there is a sect of Judaism that believes that pushing an elevator button AND opening a door is prohibited. Where would we find this sort of "interpretation"?

For the record: Someone educate us and show us a recognized branch of Judaism that prohibits opening a door, and I will personally apologize not only here, but to them directly - in writing.

Starman, I am further curious: You say the guy "always...". Was this just a sabbath thing, or was it on any day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottgem
This is NOT superstitution anymore that eating the wafer is. Its an interpetation of Bible.

Hmm. What does that have to do with the question? ...or even my comment?

We have a question as to whether there is a sect of Judaism that believes that pushing an elevator button AND opening a door is prohibited. Where would we find this sort of "interpretation"?

That comment doesn't have to do with the question. I had already answered the question prior to making that comment. You may not have seen the portion I added which shows where to find this interpretation.

That comment was a response to your superstition remark and I stand by it. I felt that remark was almost as insensitive as another remark in this thread that was, thankfully, apologized for.

I once worked in an apartment building New York City where I met this Jewish gentleman who always requested that we press the elevator button for him and open his apartment door because if he did it it would mean that he had worked and he was sinning. Is this an official belief [of the] Jewish community or is it a misunderstanding on this person's part?

Sorry, Starman, that we don't yet have an answer for you. Stay tuned, though, someone may come up with something.

For the record: Someone educate us and show us a recognized branch of Judaism that prohibits opening a door, and I will personally apologize not only here, but to them directly - in writing.


In my answer, I indicated that opening the apartment door went too far. I suspect that was more a matter of Starman's memory then the actual request. It doesn't make sense unless the resident called them to open the door when they went out as well.

But the issue of not pushing the elevator button is not uncommon. The same prohibition is what prevents them from flicking a light switch. Anything that would create a spark (kindle a fire) is prohibited.

OK, I guess we're in agreement, then, in that each of us call it "too far".

"Too far" is superstition, in "religious language".

Like I said, I'm not convinced the guy asked the building employees to open his apartment door. So until we hear from Starman with a qualification of that issue, I guess we table it.

I still think the jump to label the whole request as superstition from a non-Jew without any attempt to research or understand what might have been behind it was insensitive at best.

Sorry, Starman, that we don't yet have an answer for you. Stay tuned, though, someone may come up with something.Did I not answer the question? Look at both my previous posts.?

For the record: Someone educate us and show us a recognized branch of Judaism that prohibits opening a door, and I will personally apologize not only here, but to them directly - in writing.

Starman, I am futher curious: You say the guy "always...". Was this just a sabbath thing, or was it on any day?

It was just on the sabbath.

Did I not answer the question? Look at both my previous posts. ????

My reply was

The third one is neat in that it gives some examples for each of the 39 prohibited categories.

But nowhere do we find prohibitions of the likes of opening a door or pushing a button.

I gave more than a cursory glance at the 3 links but did not find anything about pushing a button or opening a door. I may have missed something.

In fact, if indeed creating a spark is prohibited, I could buy pushing a button that makes a spark, but the opening the door thing is the stickler for me at this point.

This is the stuff I thrive on in case they ever call me to go on Jeopardy, so I'm as curious as Starman on this one. :D

Like I said, I'm not convinced the guy asked the building employees to open his apartment door. So until we hear from Starman with a qualification of that issue, I guess we table it.

I still think the jump to label the whole request as superstition from a non-Jew without any attempt to research or understand what might have been behind it was insensitive at best.

I along with my uncle Hannibal worked as security guards, maintanance, and doormen. So the person had no trouble with the front doors since we were there to assist. After which we had to press the elevator button for him. I seem to remember that we also assisted him with opening his apartment door. I do recall accompaning him to his front door which we would only do if he needed further assistance. I also recall him standing outside at the outer entrance of the building waiting for us to open the outer building doors. If I were him, I'd just stay home and avoid the hassle.

My thanks to all for the responses.

It was just on the sabbath.

Hi Starman,
Can you clarify the apartment door issue? Did he really ask that as well? Did he ask that it be opened both when leaving and coming home?

Again, the reason for the elevator button pressing is clear. But the apt door opening isn't.

Hi Starman,
Can you clarify the apartment door issue? Did he really ask that as well? Did he ask that it be opened both when leaving and coming home?

Again, the reason for the elevator button pressing is clear. But the apt door opening isn't.

Since I worked the night shift, my only encounter with him was when he was entering building on his way to his apartment at night. I never heard my uncle mention that he needed his apartment door opened in order to leave. My uncle would have known about it since there was much interchange of info among workers and he had occasionally worked the day shift.

BTW
Others of the Jewish faith who lived there didn't do that.

Since I worked the night shift, my only encounter with him was when he was entering building on his way to his apartment at night. I never heard my uncle mention that he needed his apartment door opened in order to leave. My uncle would have known about it since there was much interchange of info among workers and he had occasionally worked the day shift.

BTW
Others of the Jewish faith who lived there didn't do that.

There are three main divisions of Judiasm; Reform, Conservative and Orthodox. Within each, especially Orthodox, there are variations. Some use a very strict interpretation of Bibilcal and Talmudic law, others a looser, more modernistic interpretation.

I used to date a girl raised in stricter household. If I would go over to her house to hang out on Saturday afternoon, I would have to operate anything electrical, she couldn't.

Was the outer door a security door that worked on a buzzer? That might explain waiting for the security people to open that door. I don't understand any need to open the aprtment door. But the desire not to do anything that involved electricity is completely normal.

As to avoiding the hassle, I'm sure I could find some Christian rituals that are more onerous. I don't think, enduring some inconvenience in order to attend services should be considered a "hassle".

As to avoiding the hassle, I'm sure I could find some Christian rituals that are more onerous. I don't think, enduring some inconvenience in order to attend services should be considered a "hassle".

My apologies for the hassle statement. You are 100% correct.
Perhaps he was waiting be let in because of a locked door.
In an case, thanks for the time taken to respond.

Everything that Scott said was right on!

Well I guess I'm late to this question, but I wanted to add, my in-laws are Orthodox Jews, and they would never push a button on the Sabbath as they are Shomer Shabbos (meaning they keep the laws of the Sabbath). They do other things too, such as tape the lightswitches on or off so that no one accidentally flips them, and tear toilet paper in the bathroom and place it in piles (since you are not allowed to tear on the Sabbath, either). It might seem extreme, and even I don't agree with it, but it's a very common practice among Orthodox Jews in general, not just the Ultra Orthodox. It's not a matter of superstition; it's based on scriptures, Talmud, and Rabbinical interpretations. And if you've been brought up with it and know nothing else, it's extremely difficult to think of doing things in any other way.

Regarding the Jewish man who asked you to press the button for him, he was just following Shomer Shabbos; there was no misunderstanding on his part. In synagogues there is often a non-Jewish person who is employed as a helper to do certain "work" on the Sabbath, since the law doesn't apply to non-Jews. Maybe this man was thinking of you in the same way as he would the non-Jewish helper.

Hi!
I've read this thread several times before deciding to join the debate.
I don't wish to discuss this person in particular, since we don't have enough facts concerning him.
Still, I do have some remarks:
though we all , here, agree there is only one God, I think we'll also agree there are many ways to worship Him.
Who's to say which way is the true one? We're only human beings, and it's only human we shall not agree upon this.
In the main three monotheist religions, there are different "streams" all of which belong to this specific religion, yet they will not agree to submit to the other stream.
The same holds for Judaism. The three main streams were mentioned above, yet there are so many more "shades of gray" in each and everyone of them. I assume that holds true for the other religions as well, though I won't be categoric about subjects I hold myself as ignorant about.. I truly appreciate Starman's interest, I find his curiosity very sincere. I'd never label or categorize something without understanding, I have too much respect for others. Wouldn't you raise an eyebrow at an Argentinian (who can't see himself living without his Assado) winking at a Hindu who considers cows holy and would never harm them? I would. If I were an Argentinian I think I would respect the Hindu very much for giving up something so delicious, because of his belief!
I'd like to add that there are also secular Jews , like me, who are not very observant of our strict religion, yet keep many traditions going. We lived for 35 years in a high apartment building - there were religious families there only up to the 3rd floor, so that on Shabath and Jewish religious days, they wouldn't have to use the elevator. Although almost all us were secular Jews, they wouldn't ask us to help them, so that we won't commit a sin on their account!
I wouldn't know about opening the lock of the apartment door, but on Shabath and Jewish religious days, the downstairs door would be always left open: this door had an electric lock.
They will never touch any appliance in the kitchen. There is a hot plate left on for 24 hours, and the food is kept warm on it.
Yes, and they DO walk to the synagogue, even when very old .
If a very religious person had access to a pool on foot, they'll never use it on such a day, so as not to "wash" the swimming suit when they immerse in the pool.
There is toilet paper pre - cut, so that they won't have to tear it.
Seems odd?
Looking from a different angle, everything could look like superstition - there are probably endless examples in other religions as well, but I'll never get into it.
When I was a little girl in Romania, people used to make the sign of the cross whenever they passé by a church - and there were so many! I admired their deep belief - that's how I saw it.
I will end with a very wise ancient hebrew saying which I apologize in advance for translating it awkwardly, but I'm sure you'll see the point, and that's what really matters;
"whatever one rejects in others, he is actually rejecting in his own self"
That's why, whenever I fell I begin to criticize something, I look inside to see where I can see it in me and don't like having it deep inside!
Millie

My post was meant as an honest inquiry and wasn't meant in any way as criticism. It's unfortunate that it be taken that way since doing so stifles any other questions that might be asked. Perhaps no questions at all should be asked. This way no offense will be taken.

I for one didn't take offense, Starman. I can tell you are sincere, and your questions are really good ones. I'm looking forward to you asking more.

My post was meant as an honest inquiry and wasn't meant in any way as criticism. It's unfortunate that it be taken that way since doing so stifles any other questions that might be asked. Perhaps no questions at all should be asked. This way no offense will be taken.

Whoa! That is exactly the way I took your original question. It was a good question. I've seen a lot of your posts and respect your attitude and perspective as well as your knowledge. I've learned a good deal from them. I had a problem with answers you received, not with your original question.

I will end with a very wise ancient hebrew saying which I apologize in advance for translating it awkwardly, but I'm sure you'll see the point, and that's what really matters;
"whatever one rejects in others, he is actually rejecting in his own self"
That's why, whenever I fell I begin to criticize something, I look inside to see where I can see it in me and don't like having it deep inside!

I guess I was reacting to the above words which seem to imply that. But then again I might be wrong. In any case thanks for the info. I am learning many things myself.

My post was meant as an honest inquiry and wasn't meant in any way as criticism. It's unfortunate that it be taken that way since doing so stifles any other questions that might be asked. Perhaps no questions at all should be asked. This way no offense will be taken.

Actually I understand what you mean though... I also like to ask questions, especially questions about Christianity, but I have stopped doing that. I just had my feelings hurt so many times. Certain people would attack me, leave nasty negative comments on my posts, etc. It just wasn't worth it. And it's too bad, because I too am sinerely interested in Christian beliefs, and not trying to be a smarta** or whatever.

Actually I understand what you mean though... I also like to ask questions, especially questions about Christianity, but I have stopped doing that. I just had my feelings hurt so many times. Certain people would attack me, leave nasty negative comments on my posts, etc. It just wasn't worth it. And it's too bad, because I too am sinerely interested in Christian beliefs, and not trying to be a smarta** or whatever.

WEll you can feel free to ask me. I won't feel offended. If not here you can email me at [email protected]

BTW
Everything going well with the pregnancy?
How many more months until the little one arrives?
May God bless and be with him always as well as with yourself and your family.

Thanks Starman... I may just take you up on that. In any event, I'll add your email to our address book so my husband can send you something when our baby is born!

I'm due on June 16, so I have about 8 weeks left. However, I've been feeling quite sick and extra tired lately, and this morning the doctor confirmed that I have the beginnings of preeclampsia. So far I am all right, but I have to take it easy and be monitored very closely. If the preeclampsia progresses, I will have to have the baby early... they will either induce labour or do a c section. The doctor is hoping though that I will be able to hang on for at least another 3 weeks. But if I suddenly disappear from the forum, you'll know I'm probably having the baby!

My post was meant as an honest inquiry and wasn't meant in any way as criticism. It's unfortunate that it be taken that way since doing so stifles any other questions that might be asked. Perhaps no questions at all should be asked. This way no offense will be taken.
That's exactly how I understood your original question - I've never doubted your sincere interest, didn't think you were criticizing
Millie :)

That's exactly how I understood your original question - i've never doubted your sincere interest, didn't think you were criticizing
Millie :)

Thank you and God bless!
Sorry about my misperception.

My post was meant as an honest inquiry and wasn't meant in any way as criticism. It's unfortunate that it be taken that way since doing so stifles any other questions that might be asked. Perhaps no questions at all should be asked. This way no offense will be taken.Geez, I hope that wasn't based on my first post - I was referring to Fred's answer not your question. If this is the case I apologize for any confusion. :(

NeedKarma, it was clear to me at least that you were referring to Fred's post, not Starman's. I don't think you need to worry.

Geez, I hope that wasn't based on my first post - I was referring to Fred's answer not your question. If this is the case I apologize for any confusion. :(
Hi, Neither have I considered your input when I wrote my lines.
I have a very high appreciation to your inputs.
Millie:)

Hi, Neither have I considered your input when I wrote my lines.
I have a very high appreciation to your inputs.
Millie:)


Thanks for the explanation Millie. I'll try not to jump to conclusions from now on. One of the many things I have to work on.

Folks:

Although I am bothered by the tone of some of the posters in response to the question "Is pushing buttons in an elevator and opening doors on Shabbat considered work for religious Jews?", I will give the person asking the question the benefit of the doubt, and assume that (s)he is sincerely trying to understand why the request is being made.

I am a religious Jew. I understand the man's request. Here is why something trivial as pushing an elevator button and opening a building door on Shabbat (and even some other Jewish holidays) forbidden in his opinion. For those "educated" posters who think "work" is forbidden on Shabbat, I have good news and bad news. They are only partially right. SOME forms of work are forbidden to religious Jews on Shabbat, and some are not.

One of the more astute responders tried to point y'all in the right direction by sending you to a web site with a description of the 39 categories of "work" that are forbidden. The entire basis of these 39 categories is one sentence in the book of Exodus:
Moses' discourse to the Community of Israel about the building of the Sanctuary opens with the following words:

"Six days labor shall be performed, and on the seventh day you will have a holy Shabbos of rest in honor of G-d: anyone who performs a labor on Shabbos shall be put to death." (Ex. 35:2).

It is a commandment to labor -- "Six days labor shall be performed". Part of that same commandment is the commandment to observe the Shabbos by willfully abstaining from labor when so commanded. So stringent is this commandment that its willful infringement is punishable by execution. The example of forbidden labor given in the Torah text is that of kindling fire on the Sabbath day, which is infringed by acts as simple as flicking on a light-switch, lighting a cooker or starting a car ignition.

The ability to observe Shabbos and the ability to engage in truly meaningful labor on the other days of the week are bound up together. Only when a person can consciously abstain from action and willfully NOT perform a particular range of actions as instructed by G-d on Shabbos can he be said to have true INTENTION when he does perform the action in honor of G-d on the six days of the week. Only then does his action have true merit.

Now, granted that in our society no human has the power to execute another just because (s)he worked on a day that rest is mandated, but for orthodox Jews, the order is absolute, since G-d can always execute judgment.

Hence your resident's request to have the elevator button pushed, an action that can create a spark (if not at the button, then somewhere along the entire electrical grid which provides the electricity to the button and to the elevator motors) is very reasonable, and as a professional doorman, you should execute it out of simple courtesy.

His request to open the lobby door for him is reasonable if your lobby door has any kind of electrical device that gets activated when the door is pushed open. Examples of such devices are alarm system sensors, power-assists for the handicapped, closed-circuit systems, electromagnetic locks...

So as you can see, his request for you to open the door is also very reasonable, without any implication of him having a desire to be catered to.

By the way, the same restrictions apply to certain Jewish holidays, but not all. So if you are a truly professional and customer-oriented doorman, you would approach him and ask him if there are any other times of the year he would like the same service performed.

If the resident asks that you (the doorman) press the elevator button and hold the door open 24/7, then maybe he can be accused of wanting to feel important, but even then, your job as a customer-service oriented doorman is to find out why and how you can accommodate it.

I must caution all of you against making arguments such as "So and so, also Jewish (or any other religion), doesn't do "X". So and so may be an agnostic Jew, a reform Jew, or a conservative Jew, or just a plain secular person with Jewish ancestry, and have no clue about what Jewish law says about the 39 classes of forbidden types of labor.

Hope this post helps you do your job better, and the rest of the posters understand Jewish theology better.

Brent

Wow that sounded so painful. It's hard for me to believe that there aren't other choices. But I guess you're not looking for any either.

Cheers!

Wow that sounded so painful. It's hard for me to believe that there aren't other choices. But I guess you're not looking for any either.

Cheers!

Huh, what was painful? What choices do you think there are? As a Christian are you given a choice whether to be baptized or not?

The 39 categories may be inconvenient, but many rituals and requirements of other religions are just as incenvenient.

Hi,
Very good answer, Omf, excellent.
The 24/7 was very good, showing that it's possible this is not to be observed every single day, every single hour.
I do hope you continue posting answers.
Best wishes.

Oh no disrespect intended. Just my reaction to the subject or object.

I mean it's just a button! Analyzing THINGS to death seems fruitless for PEOPLE.


Is it the button that launches a nuclear attack? :confused:

Oh no disrespect intended. Just my reaction to the subject or object.

I mean it's just a button! Analyzing THINGS to death seems fruitless for PEOPLE.


Is it the button that launches a nuclear attack? :confused:

You claim; "No disrespect intended", yet you continue to do so. The point is that its not "just a button". Its an interpretation of Talmudic LAW that evolved with the discovery and application of electricity. Talmudic law forbids kindling a fire. Since the use of electricity creates a spark, ergo kindling a fire, it has been prohibited on Shabbat.

I'm sure, if I looked, I could find similar laws placed on Christians and Moslems that would seem a stretch in interpetation. But that's not the point. The point is that Jews who strictly observe the Sabbath are prohibited from doing any activity that falls into those 39 categories. To denigrate those beliefs is to show disrepect for their religion.

Or the record- Your Points are duly Noted.

I appreciate the all the responses that have clarified this subject. I worked as a doorman some thirty years ago for six months in an apartment building in downtown New York City. It was during that time that the events I mentioned happened. We always respectfully and courteously pushed the buttons and opened the doors with no questions asked although we didn't understand why the person felt it necessary. My post isn't meant as a criticism. It was posted simply because I wanted to know the reason for the custom. Thanks again for the informative responses and God bless!

I've learned a lot here... and understand that some Jews will count certain button pushing as igniting a flame.

I'm curious. Was there a Jewish perspective clarified on the opening the door part that I've missed?

No, it's not a matter of respect. I would be one of those people pushing the button for the guy!

I'm well equipped with understanding. I lived and worked in N.Y.C. till I was 31. And did it with eyes wide open too. So, I was, very capable of UNDERSTANDING. Especially the obvious. If someone politely asks someone to push a button, well, everybody's got their reasons for doing things. I would just hope that man got to his destination on time.

As far as respect. That may be your own issue. Because for this particular subject, I can understand a person. However, I cannot respect something that I don't AGREE with.

I'm curious. Was there a Jewish perspective clarified on the opening the door part that I've missed?I think it's somewhere in here: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religion/pressing-button-work-24762-5.html#post116026

I've learned alot here...and understand that some Jews will count certain button pushing as igniting a flame.

I'm curious. Was there a Jewish perspective clarified on the opening the door part that I've missed?

I don't think opening a door is usually considered work; my in-laws open doors on Shabbos. But I think maybe this door was an electric security one, like the kind of door where you have to buzz to get in and out of an apartment building. So if that was the case, opening the electric door would be considered making fire (aka work). But opening a regular manual door would not.

With sincere respect to all faiths on earth, I asked God and he/she/it said no it is not a sin. Furthermore he said work is holy if done joyfully within his spirit of love, and the play is holy if done joyfully within his spirit of love and that he intends for an appropriate balance in all things. It was pretty simple, I thought.

And no, I am not some sort of cracked person talking with God, lol.

This is the first time I saw this thread. I am not going to add anythig profound or necessarily answering the question but I did want to put my 2 cents worth in reagrding the statement "going too far"

I am not trying to offend anyone and maybe nobaody cares about this but I wanted to clarify something from a Christian perspective. Ok, it is my point of view but here goes. Years ago, I might have been critical in my spirit about this thinking the person is going to far in their religion. But as this forum has taught me there is legitimate reasons people do or think the way they do. I am reminded of a scripture in the bible that Paul writes in Romans 14:2


Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

Now, I am not calling anyone weak. My point is that we shouldn't look down on someone for doing a certain thing because we don't do that ourselves. I am not saying anyone is doing this, I thought it would be an interesting point. Sorry if this is a bit off the subject.

With sincere respect to all faiths on earth, I asked God and he/she/it said no it is not a sin. Furthermore he said work is holy if done joyfully within his spirit of love, and the play is holy if done joyfully within his spirit of love and that he intends for an appropriate balance in all things. It was pretty simple, I thought.

And no, I am not some sort of cracked person talking with God, lol.

Sorry, but when you put down and negate someone else's religious beliefs (which is exactly what you did here), that is not showing "sincere respect to all faiths". There is biblical support keeping the Sabbath holy as a day of rest. How different faiths interpret that is up to them.

Sorry right back. While" your" religious beliefs have you "sitting it out", There are real heroes out there working on this SABBATH and even on Christmas.

So I'm certainly glad Jack and Jill are working Saturday when some poor victim gets hit by a car and needs to get medical attention fast!
Are you?

James 1:27- Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
:rolleyes:

Sorry right back. While" your" religious beliefs have you "sitting it out", There are real heroes out there working on this SABBATH and even on Christmas.


What they heck does that have to do with anything? I don't take off during the Xmas holidays because its not my holiday, leaving others to do so since its more important to them.

Exodus 20:8-11 states"

20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to set it apart as holy.
20:9 For six days you may labor and do all your work,
20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your male servant, or your female servant, or your cattle, or the resident foreigner who is in your gates.
20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, and he rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy

Christianity as well as Judiasm and Islam both follow the Ten Commandments.

Working on the SABBATH is an old testament thing. Bound by the old law.

For the record, Jewish doctors and other emergency personnel do work on the Sabbath. Saving a life comes before the Law.

Working on the SABBATH is an old testament thing. Bound by the old law.

Um do you deny that both Christianity and the Islam are built on the Old Testament and that the Old Testament is part the Christian's Bible and the Islamic Koran?

While its true that the extent and nature of holding the Sabbath holy has changed in those subsequent religions, the concept of holding the Sabbath holy has not.

Um do you deny that both Christianity and the Islam are built on the Old Testament and that the Old Testament is part the Christian's Bible and the Islamic Koran?

I am not sure about Islam but I can speak for Christianity. I think what 31pumpkin is referring to is that since the NT came along Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath (actually the OT law). Christians no longer observe it as a ritual of not working, no cooking, or whatever else the law for the Sabbath brings. I guess some may, I shouldn't speak for every Christian but in general.


While its true that the extent and nature of holding the Sabbath holy has changed in those subsequent religions, the concept of holding the Sabbath holy has not.

You are correct. Even though Christians do not hold the Sabbath in a ritualistic way, it doesn't take away that God does want us to take some time to rest. I think this should be taken seriously since in this day and age we are so rushed and don't seem to take the time for family. I know, I catch myself doing this also.

You are correct. Even though Christians do not hold the Sabbath in a ritualistic way, it doesn't take away that God does want us to take some time to rest. I think this should be taken seriously since in this day and age we are so rushed and don't seem to take the time for family. I know, I catch myself doing this also.

Exactly, Are not Christians encouraged (required?) to go to church on Sundays?

Exactly, Are not Christians encouraged (required?) to go to church on Sundays?


Apples to Oranges! What's doing something for one hr. got to do with NOT DOING something for 24 hrs. And more, if u want to include that leaving work early thing on a Friday to? :eek:

Exactly, Are not Christians encouraged (required?) to go to church on Sundays?

I am not sure what side this would prove. If I am understanding your question
Correctly most Christians are encouraged to go. Some churches because of the status of the people (elders, deacons) are required. I try to go every Sunday but view it as a time to re-energize my senses and body. It is like rest to me.

Would you go on to a synogogue on the Sabbath or is that forbidden also? My Jewish law is a little rusty. Actually after reading these posts, my Jewish law was never really there :p .

If I missed your point then let me know.

I am not sure what side this would prove. If I am understanding your question
correctly most Christians are encouraged to go. Some churches bc of the status of the people (elders, deacons) are required. I try to go every Sunday but view it as a time to re-energize my senses and body. It is like rest to me.

Would you go on to a synogogue on the Sabbath or is that forbidden also? My Jewish law is a little rusty. Actually after reading these posts, my Jewish law was never really there :p .

If I missed your point then let me know.

My point was simply that Christians do follow the commandment to Remember the Sabbath day to set it apart as holy. The difference is simply to what extent. And yes, Jews do go to Synagogue. Actually they go both Friday night and again on Saturday.


Apples to Oranges! What's doing something for one hr. got to do with NOT DOING something for 24 hrs.? and more, if u want to include that leaving work early thing on a Friday to? :eek:

How can you say apples to oranges? The issue is the commandment to remember the Sabbath day. And you show your ignorance. Jewish holidays go from sundown to sundown. So the Sabbath starts sundown on Friday and ends sundown on Saturday. That's your 24 hours. If jews leave work early on Fridays its to make sure they are home before sundown.

My point was simply that Christians do follow the commandment to Remember the Sabbath day to set it apart as holy. The difference is simply to what extent. And yes, Jews do go to Synagogue. Actually they go both Friday night and again on Saturday.

Then I guess you and I are on the same page with this one.

We just don't take it to the point where we won't work in the yard or anything like that.

Remember hearing about the days when stores weren't even open on Sundays? You never ever see that happen again. I even see stores open on Thanksgiving and Christmas lately. Although if you don't celebrate Christmas I guess it would be OK.

Remember hearing about the days when stores weren't even open on Sundays? You never ever see that happen again. I even see stores open on Thanksgiving and Christmas lately. Although if you don't celebrate Christmas I guess it would be ok.

Don't try to go shopping in Paramus, NJ on a Sunday. All stores are closed. They continue to enforce what we call the "blue laws".

How can you say apples to oranges? The issue is the commandment to remember the Sabbath day. And you show your ignorance. Jewish holidays go from sundown to sundown. So the Sabbath starts sundown on Friday and ends sundown on Saturday. That's your 24 hours. If jews leave work early on Fridays its to make sure they are home before sundown.[/QUOTE]


Sundown, sundown... Sunrise, sunset... You're right... I'd pretty much have to be Jewish to know that! But I'm one of those "cool" people from N.Y. :D

Sundown, sundown...Sunrise, sunset...... You're right...I'd pretty much have to be Jewish to know that! But I'm one of those "cool" people from N.Y.! :D

Actually no. I don't believe you WOULD need to be jewish to know that. Especially being from NY. How many times have news media reported that x jewish holiday begins at sundown? Many calendars list jewish holidays as starting at sundown. I'm sure a large percentage of Gentiles would be aware of this.

While I don't claim to be a religious expert, I think its clear that I have some knowledge of other religions. I don't think one can effectively comment about something without at least some knowledge of it.

Actually no. I don't believe you WOULD need to be jewish to know that. Especially being from NY. How many times have news media reported that x jewish holiday begins at sundown? Many calendars list jewish holidays as starting at sundown. I'm sure a large percentage of Gentiles would be aware of this.

While I don't claim to be a religious expert, I think its clear that I have some knowledge of other religions. I don't think one can effectively comment about something without at least some knowledge of it.


No, I consulted with some Gentile friends up there and NO, they never heard of any of those things you mentioned.

I have enough knowledge of the Jewish peoples plight and the old testament to comment on the actual question in the 1st place.

Just because YOU THINK my comments not effective, doesn't mean that they aren't, AND that YOURS are. Ego

You claim to "have" some knowledge of other religions. Well, then why has the PENTECOST escaped you, ScotGem (this we know) if your so smart!? For all your "knowledge" tell us, where are you really headed!

Like I said, I have "some" knowledge and don't claim to be an expert. As far as your Gentile friends, sounds like "birds of a feather..."

Again your comments show a lack of knowledge and tolerance for other religions. That's why your comments are neither effective or accurate.

What about the Pentecost? What has that got to do with what has been discussed here?

No, it has to do what will be discussed between YOU and your "lack of Religion" on judgment day. Your " dead" self-spirit will be thoughly judged... I can tell. And the poison you bring to the others. Oh HELL! When you
Get down there, don't forget to shout out through the flames of what a BIG MAN you are! :p

To all participants,

As this thread has gone so far off course from the original question I'm closing it.

Thank you.