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Peter Wilson
Aug 9, 2008, 06:18 AM
What did Jesus mean when He said in John 3 -

3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What are the signs and how do you know for sure, that you have been "Born again"?

Peace.

Tj3
Aug 9, 2008, 06:53 AM
What did Jesus mean when He said in John 3 -

3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What are the signs and how do you know for sure, that you have been "Born again"?

Peace.

Water is used in scripture to refer to the flesh or body which is. In fact, mostly made up of water. Jesus speaks of this inm that passage when he equates water to the flesh:

John 3:4-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

Being born of the Spirit is when we are born again, and the Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit, having a Spiritual rebirth by receiving Christ as Saviour and having the Holy Spirit indwells you. Having been born again means that your sins have been wahsed away by the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. Anyone with sin cannot enter the Kingdom of God, thus you must first be born again.

Choux
Aug 10, 2008, 12:27 PM
This is the center of the meaning of Christianity, and is often misunderstood.

It means that an individual must incorporate the loving teachings of Jesus and discard old misery generating materialistic ways so they can enter the Kingdom of God Within, and the Kingdom of God on Earth.

It is about an inner transformation of an individual... being born again of one's mind and spirit.

Galveston1
Aug 10, 2008, 01:06 PM
I think this answers the last sentence in the original post.

Rom 10:8-11
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(KJV)

revdrgade
Aug 10, 2008, 02:09 PM
The simple, but rather cryptic answer is that: you will be able to see the kingdom of God.

But that begs the question, "What does it mean to see the kingdom of God?"

Both questions have to do with almost purely spiritual matters that can only be discerned spiritually. Probably the clearest explanation is in the following:

1 Cor 2:10-16

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"

But we have the mind of Christ.
NIV

When Adam and Eve accepted the "serpents" word and ate from the forbidden tree, they "died". But what died immediately was not their body but the spirit of God within them. When one is "born again" they receive spiritual life again and once again have a true relationship with God and not just a knowledge of Him.

The "signs" you ask for include a desire to have God as your lord and king, to seek Him and His grace and power, and the desire to serve Him out of love for His goodness and favor towards man.

Jesus pointed out that not all those who call themselves His disciples ARE His disciples.

Luke 6:46-49

46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord ,' and do not do what I say? 47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
NIV

The best signs that we ARE His disciples are doing the works of love for others. The power of God to do good works is given by God; it is our selfish will which can keep us from maturing enough to have confidence that we really are born again.

1 John 3:16-4:1

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts , and he knows everything.

21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
NIV

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 04:15 PM
Having been born again means that your sins have been wahsed away by the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. Anyone with sin cannot enter the Kingdom of God, thus you must first be born again.

I think 'born again' can only come from repentance. Not just believing the sacrifice of jesus, cause even the devil believes it. And if you think you're without sin, is it because you believe? Or has sin actually stopped in your life? Don't you still need to repent?


The power of God to do good works is given by God; it is our selfish will which can keep us from maturing enough to have confidence that we really are born again.

1 John 3:16-4:1

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts , and he knows everything.

21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
NIV

god's commands are from his spirit to our heart and mind. If we don't follow them, we remain in our sin, unrepentant. Are we born again just because we believe in his sacrifice? How, if we remain unrepentant? And, and, how will we know god's commands, unless he tells us? Should we read the bible and try to guess? I did this for years, getting nowhere, cause of course I wasn't murdering or stealing. But I wasn't born again. When I started to listen to god, and trying to understand where he needed me to repent, then I could say that I might have a chance of being reborn, because I would be changing and maturing on a spiritual level. By the way, the devil and unrepentant will never try to go through this process. But they might believe jesus died on the cross.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 04:21 PM
I think 'born again' can only come from repentance. Not just believing the sacrifice of jesus, cause even the devil believes it. And if you think you're without sin, is it because you believe? Or has sin actually stopped in your life? Don't you still need to repent?

I did not use the word believe. I said that it was receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour, and all that entails.


god's commands are from his spirit to our heart and mind. If we don't follow them, we remain in our sin, unrepentant. Are we born again just because we believe in his sacrifice?

Do you believe that obedience to the law is essential for salvation?

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 04:55 PM
I did not use the word believe. I said that it was receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour, and all that entails.
...Do you believe that obedience to the law is essential for salvation?

Receiving jesus christ... I don't believe receiving is being born again. As far as obedience to the law: first I'd ask, what is the 'law'; and second, are we able to keep the 'law'? People would say that jesus did away with the law, but jesus said he came to fulfil the law. 2 meanings could come from this: one, that he actually did the law in the flesh (wonder how?), and two, that his work is still being done in us, as far as the law goes, fulfilling old testament prophecy, even continuously, as:
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Why are christians still sinning? Surely as soon as you accept christ, your sins never reappear... or is it probable that we're unable to keep the 'law' and 'statutes... and... ordinances'. So 'essential to salvation', sure, as long as you're able to keep them. But if you can't, then what? Jesus paid for sins. Okay. Will we ever on earth, be able to keep statutes, law, and ordinances? How did jesus do it?

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 06:08 PM
receiving jesus christ... I don't believe receiving is being born again.

So you separate salvation from being born again? Is this what you are saying?


as far as obedience to the law: first I'd ask, what is the 'law';

If you are saying obedience to the law is a requirement for salvation, then why don't you tell us which law you mean.


and second, are we able to keep the 'law'?

My position based upon scripture is no. That is why when we re receive Jesus as Saviour, we also receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who guides and strengthens us. If we could, we could be saved under the law. Thus my original question to you.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 07:17 PM
So you separate salvation from being born again? Is this what you are saying?
(I'm so glad you're staying with me) yes, because what you are calling 'salvation' is not the same as jesus' atonement on the cross.
what are we saved from? Is it the law? Jesus paid the price. So yes, he saved us from the law.


If you are saying obedience to the law is a requirement for salvation, then why don't you tell us which law you mean.

lol, I was asking you the same question, what is the law? The reason I ask, is that we would have to know what it was, in order to keep it. But, since jesus paid the price of whatever the law is, then we don't have to pay that price. But, that only means we have salvation from the ultimate death that the law requires. But I don't believe we're born again because we believe this, or accept it, or embrace it. Then we'd only be saying, 'yay, way to go, jesus. Great job'(without the following):...


My position based upon scripture is no. That is why when we re receive Jesus as Saviour, we also receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who guides and strengthens us. If we could, we could be saved under the law. Thus my original question to you.

... cont. we're on the same page, because the holy spirit is what jesus knew we would need to begin the process of purity that would ultimately lead us to the kingdom of heaven, where we would find salvation. This process begins with the seed of the holy spirit in us. That is what makes us born again, because we have to respond by repentance of whatever sin god shows us, that's in our heart. This is the beginning, or birth, of our maturity. We cannot go to 'heaven' without this process, that's why I say that even though jesus saved us from the law, he didn't save us from this process of rebirth. I know the question becomes, 'so even though jesus died for our sins, we aren't going to heaven'? No, not if you skip through life without coming to god, and repenting of what he shows you to be sin. 'what happens if I sin, do I go to 'hell''? No, that's where jesus' atonement enters (thank god). We don't have to pay the wage of sin, we can continue to get purified by god.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 07:32 PM
(I'm so glad you're staying with me) yes, because what you are calling 'salvation' is not the same as jesus' atonement on the cross.


Really? Please explain and provide scriptural justification for your claim.


what are we saved from? Is it the law? Jesus paid the price. So yes, he saved us from the law.

The Apostle Paul disagrees.

Gal 3:24-25
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

The law was to point us to Christ, showing us our sin. Jesus saved us from our sins through the blood shed on the cross.

Rev 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
NKJV

Do you mind if I ask what church denomination you attend?

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 07:45 PM
Salvation means simply saved. Yes, jesus saved us from the wages of sin. This is what I was trying to say. However, jesus did not save us from our own sin. We still sin. So although the ultimate payment for our sins was paid by jesus' atonement, his work continues through the holy spirit, in us. We still sin. We cannot avoid sin, unless, and until, we allow the holy spirit to speak god's word to us (not scripture reading), and show us where to change. This is the beginning of our birth toward maturity, where we will have salvation from sin. This step is crucial, and even though jesus did his work, this work must continue in us.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 07:51 PM
I don't attend a church. However, every day, I am in a class that teaches me how to follow god's word. This is only because god is living, and not
In any building.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 07:52 PM
salvation means simply saved. Yes, jesus saved us from the wages of sin. This is what I was trying to say. However, jesus did not save us from our own sin.

Scripture disagrees

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV


we still sin. So although the ultimate payment for our sins was paid by jesus' atonement, his work continues through the holy spirit, in us. We still sin.

Yes, that is true, but Jesus' sacrifice still paid the price for all of our sin, all of our unrighteousness.


even though jesus did his work, this work must continue in us.

The continuing work is called sanctification.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 07:53 PM
i don't attend a church. however, every day, i am in a class that teaches me how to follow god's word. this is only because god is living, and not
in any building.

You don't have to answer, but I would be interested in knowing who (organization/group, not individual) puts on this class. If you do not wish to post publicly, I would appreciate it if you PM it to me.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 07:59 PM
He's faithful and just to forgive and to cleanse, but this cleaning, or sanctification takes time. If we sin, yes, he's already forgiven us, but that doesn't mean we don't sin. Jesus' death did not stop us from sinning.
If someone wants to call purification sanctification, they can call it whatever they like. But to skip this process will not get you into heaven.
Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:00 PM
Lol... I was saying that in life, everyday, god is the one who holds this class, in our hearts and minds, through the holy spirit.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:02 PM
if someone wants to call purification sanctification, they can call it whatever they like. but to skip this process will not get you into heaven.


It is sin which keeps us from heaven, and that price was paid.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:05 PM
how will you stop sinning? Will you go to heaven by sinning? Who tells you what sin you're committing? Why do you need transformation, or rebirth? Can't you go to heaven dirty, sinful, unclean?

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:07 PM
lol... i was saying that in life, everyday, god is the one who holds this class, in our hearts and minds, through the holy spirit.

Heb 10:24-25
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
NKJV

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:08 PM
how will you stop sinning? will you go to heaven by sinning? who tells you what sin you're committing? why do you need transformation, or rebirth? can't you go to heaven dirty, sinful, unclean?

When Jesus said that He cleanses us of all unrighteousness - what do you think "all unrighteousness" means? Is sin unrighteousness?

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:11 PM
Heb 10:24-25
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
NKJV
This is a forum. From dictionary.com:
3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc. for the discussion of questions of public interest.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:12 PM
When Jesus said that He cleanses us of all unrighteousness - what do you think "all unrighteousness" means? Is sin unrighteousness?
How does he do this?

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:17 PM
how does he do this?

1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:17 PM
When Jesus said that He cleanses us of all unrighteousness - what do you think "all unrighteousness" means? Is sin unrighteousness?
yes, sin is unrighteousness... which refers to our wrong behaviour, thoughts, motives. Now, the way (lol) jesus cleanses us, is through the holy spirit. This takes time. We still sin. Sin cannot enter into heaven.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:21 PM
yes, sin is unrighteousness... which refers to our wrong behaviour, thoughts, motives. now, the way (lol) jesus cleanses us, is through the holy spirit. this takes time. we still sin. sin cannot enter into heaven.


Heb 10:13-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:22 PM
1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV
But if I slap some of jesus' blood on me, it won't stop me from sinning. So the cleansing process takes time.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:24 PM
but if i slap some of jesus' blood on me, it won't stop me from sinning. so the cleansing process takes time.

That is what sanctification is. This is not cleansing. Scripture is clear that the cleansing occurred. And it is not our perfection, but it is His perfection that justifies us.

Rom 4:20-25
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:24 PM
Heb 10:13-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV
Ahhhh... those who are being sanctified.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:25 PM
ahhhh.... those who are being sanctified.

Exactly. Not perfected, not cleansed, but sanctified!

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:27 PM
I will never say that jesus didn't save us from the payment of sin. We could never pay that price ourselves. But don't you wonder how he did it?

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:29 PM
i will never say that jesus didn't save us from the payment of sin. we could never pay that price ourselves. but don't you wonder how he did it?

By the sacrifice on the cross.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:29 PM
Exactly. Not perfected, not cleansed, but sanctified!
Cleansed from what? Perfected how?

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:30 PM
By the sacrifice on the cross.
I'm talking about how he remained sinless... what method did he use?

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:33 PM
i'm talking about how he remained sinless... what method did he use?

He was fully submitted to the Father, and did not inherit the sin nature.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:35 PM
He was fully submitted to the Father, and did not inherit the sin nature.
Then temptation would have had no effect on him?

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:46 PM
then temptation would have had no effect on him?

I did not say that or even imply it.

Heb 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
NKJV

De Maria
Aug 10, 2008, 08:46 PM
What did Jesus mean when He said in John 3 -

3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What are the signs and how do you know for sure, that you have been "Born again"?

Peace.

To be "born again" is to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Water is the principle sign in this Sacrament because water is used to wash away filth from the body. Therefore it is used to signify the real washing away of filth from the soul and thus being born into the Body of Christ.

How do you know that you have been born again for sure? If you have been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and either washed or dipped in water as a sign of that Baptism.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:46 PM
To be "born again" is to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Baptism does not save.

cogs
Aug 10, 2008, 08:51 PM
Tj3 thanks for the back and forth... it helps to discuss and learn... I'm going home from work. I hope all of us can believe in a living god.

Tj3
Aug 10, 2008, 08:53 PM
Tj3 thanks for the back and forth... it helps to discuss and learn... i'm going home from work. i hope all of us can believe in a living god.

Have a good evening.

Peter Wilson
Aug 11, 2008, 02:14 AM
He was fully submitted to the Father, and did not inherit the sin nature.
I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".
If He wasn't, then it would be impossible for us to follow His example.
If He can resist sin as a man, then so can we.
We are all subject to the law of sin, it's whether we choose to obey it or not, that is the question.
We always have a choice, whether we obey our feelings, that is, if we allow our flesh to control our mind,
which takes our will right along with it.
Or if we do what is right, according to our conscience of good and evil, and if you are Born again, prompted or convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we will not follow the law of sin and death.
We will sow to the spirit, not the flesh.


Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.

There's other scriptures that show this as well, but my computer won't search at the moment.
Cheers.:)

Peter Wilson
Aug 11, 2008, 04:54 AM
To be "born again" is to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Water is the principle sign in this Sacrament because water is used to wash away filth from the body. Therefore it is used to signify the real washing away of filth from the soul and thus being born into the Body of Christ.

How do you know that you have been born again for sure? If you have been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and either washed or dipped in water as a sign of that Baptism.

Water is definitely a part of it, but being Born again is more than being sprinkled as a baby.
You have to make a decision to turn from sin and towards God, this is what "repent" means.
Then to confess that you are a sinner and need a Savior, to confess that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for your sins, then you will be saved.

Romans 10
8
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
9
for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
11
For the scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."
12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him.
13
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."


That is not the end of the story though, in order to do this, you must firstly, "make a decision".
A baby cannot,"make a decision", neither can they confess their sin, or even confess that Jesus died for their sin and rose again on the third day.
It must be an adult decision, "The answer of a good conscience" as Peter puts it in 1 Peter.
Then you must ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit, for if your son asks you for bread, you will not give him a stone, even so, if you ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, then you will receive it.

Luke 11

9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
When you do, it will be accompanied by signs, one of which is speaking in an unknown tongue, or "the tongues of angels" as Paul calls it in 1 Corinthians 14.
In Acts 2:38-39,
Peter states
38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39
For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."
What happened when they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, (I might add here, that Mary also needed the Holy Spirit, as she was also in the Upper room),
they spoke in tongues.
When Simon the sorcerer saw the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of hands, he wanted this power also. (Acts 8)
What did he see, babies getting sprinkled, I think that he was amazed at the miraculous signs that he saw.
What were these signs.
In Acts 10, Cornelius received the word of God and believed, the Holy Ghost fell on him and he spoke in tongues.
In Chapter 11, Peter says,

15
As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them as it had upon us at the beginning,
16
and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, 'John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
17
If then God gave them the same gift he gave to us when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?"
18
When they heard this, they stopped objecting and glorified God, saying, "God has then granted life-giving repentance to the Gentiles too."

In Acts 19, there were some new believers that Paul met,


1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the country and came (down) to Ephesus where he found some disciples.
2
He said to them, "Did you receive the holy Spirit when you became believers?" They answered him, "We have never even heard that there is a holy Spirit."
3
He said, "How were you baptized?" They replied, "With the baptism of John."
4
Paul then said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus."
5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6
And when Paul laid (his) hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
7
Altogether there were about twelve men.

This is a sign that can be verified not only in the Bible, but by many thousands today.
I am not saying that it is the only sign, but if you don't have this gift, then I would wonder as to the validity of your supposed "Born again " experience.
You did have an experience didn't you?
If you obey God and get baptized by full immersion, that is "Buried in Baptism" (Romans 6) and ask, in faith, to receive the Holy Spirit, then just submit your life, (this includes your tongue!) and begin to praise Him, fully expecting to speak in tongues, then you will.
However, you don't have to be baptized first, to receive the Holy Spirit , as was my experience, but you still need to obey God and get baptized.
Not because I or anybody else tells you to, but because you believe that is is God's will that you do this.

A couple of examples,

John 1

11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Being Born again, is not something that we can do, our spirit is made alive unto God, when we are immersed into the Holy Spirit.


The Baptism of Jesus
13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

If Jesus needed to get baptized by full immersion, then we should follow his example, to fulfil all righteousness.






29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

Even in Jesus day, the religious leaders rejected the way and plan of God in order to preserve their own religious ideas!
Do you reject it today?

Acts 22

14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Even as Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, His commandment was to be baptized and wash his sins away, exactly the experience that I had when I was obedient to God's word.
I didn't expect anything to happen, I just thought that I would go under. Get wet and get out!
But as soon as my head broke out of that water, I felt clean immediately.
I knew that all my sins were washed away, my desire for alcohol, drugs and illegitimate sex, were gone immediately.
Even the desire for cigarettes was taken away!
I couldn't even stay in the same room as some-one swearing, anymore, for at least 6 months afterwards!
It was like some-one hitting my spirit with a stick when they swore!
Maybe you will accept something less, but that is your choice, and when you stand before God, then you will have to explain why you rejected His way for your own way.
My greatest desire for you, is that you come into the knowledge of the truth, not by my argument, but by the submitting of yourself to the revealed will of God, so that God will do His part in the promise,
39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

And to let Jesus have the last word on this, from Mark 16

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


Peace.:)

Tj3
Aug 11, 2008, 07:04 AM
I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".

He was subject to temptation, but the sin nature refers to the desire to sin inherited through the generations.

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 07:13 AM
I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".
If He wasn't, then it would be impossible for us to follow His example.
If He can resist sin as a man, then so can we.
We are all subject to the law of sin, it's whether we choose to obey it or not, that is the question.
We always have a choice, whether we obey our feelings, that is, if we allow our flesh to control our mind,
which takes our will right along with it.
Or if we do what is right, according to our conscience of good and evil, and if you are Born again, prompted or convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we will not follow the law of sin and death.
We will sow to the spirit, not the flesh.


Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.

There's other scriptures that show this as well, but my computer won't search at the moment.
Cheers.:)
Peter, I think you got this right, and I needed to hear it. As far as the tongues, and the baptism, I think that's right too, but for me right now, I'm not going to do that, because I'm having enough trouble living in god's spirit, and listening to him. If he tells me that, then I'll probably end up doing it. The reason why I accept about the tongues, is because I've read books that have explained what you did in the post of yours above, using the same scriptures. But I will tell you, that god will not leave me where I am because I haven't been immersed, or speak with tongues. These things are physical, and in order not to sin, I need god's spirit, which is spiritual. Some things in the bible are symbolic and figurative, just like the parables. When jesus washed the apostles' feet, it was a symbol that we indeed needed cleansing by god. We aren't going around washing peoples' feet, just because jesus did. We're the ones in need of cleansing. Also, wouldn't you agree that immersion is the picture of jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, and that our sinful nature must go through the same process? And, as far as speaking in tongues, out of our inner parts, flow the rivers of living waters, through the holy spirit, that is a fountain of eternal life, of which we drink. So you can see how I have the thinking, that not all is literal when it comes to doing physical things in the bible. I take this stance, because I look at how it helps me develop spiritually, with the living god inside, telling me what to do.

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 07:30 AM
I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".
If He wasn't, then it would be impossible for us to follow His example.
If He can resist sin as a man, then so can we.
We are all subject to the law of sin, it's whether we choose to obey it or not, that is the question.
We always have a choice, whether we obey our feelings, that is, if we allow our flesh to control our mind,
which takes our will right along with it.
Or if we do what is right, according to our conscience of good and evil, and if you are Born again, prompted or convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we will not follow the law of sin and death.
We will sow to the spirit, not the flesh.


Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.

There's other scriptures that show this as well, but my computer won't search at the moment.
Cheers.:)
peter, what role does the holy spirit play in our choice to deny sin? I ask, because when I realize I really cannot stop sinning, I wonder if god's power is helping me. If you understand the operation of this power, please reply. I know that the spirit shows me my sin that I cannot discover myself, but I wonder if the spirit helps me to overcome even the temptation, by some action? You said your desire to quit certain things stopped altogether. What about us, who still have the desire? Do we continually have to deny the temptation, or is there help to overcome completely?

ScottRC
Aug 11, 2008, 07:44 AM
I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".
That's an interesting opinion... but I'm wondering then, what did 2 Cor 5:21 mean?

"Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him." (DR)

I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin... but that he simply resisted.

Please expand on this.


God bless..

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 08:01 AM
That's an interesting opinion... but I'm wondering then, what did 2 Cor 5:21 mean?

"Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him." (DR)

I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin.... but that he simply resisted.

Please expand on this.


God bless..
2Cr 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him. ASV
this is making jesus like a scapegoat, where he took our punishment for sin upon himself. He was a spotless lamb, because he did not sin, so he was an acceptable sacrifice. He was also human, like us, taking in his flesh the punishment for sin. This is why I agree with peter, because our flesh is weak. Jesus said that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

ScottRC
Aug 11, 2008, 08:15 AM
this is making jesus like a scapegoat, where he took our punishment for sin upon himself.
Ummm... that's what He did (Died for our sins), right?

Not sure what you are objecting to.

he was a spotless lamb, because he did not sin, so he was an acceptable sacrifice.
A sacrifice is meant to atone for sins... so I'm still confused as to your intitial comment.

he was also human, like us, taking in his flesh the punishment for sin.
Now I'm really confused... he took the punishment for sin, but you object to making him out to be a "scapegoat" where he took the punishment for sin.... :confused:

this is why I agree with peter, because our flesh is weak. Jesus said that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
I'm not making a judgement, just trying to understand why you two believe this...

I don't expect you to accept my reasons for rejecting this notion (the fifth ecumenical council, at Constantinople in 553) but I'm hoping you can explain your views.

Thanks for your helping me understand your faith!

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 08:24 AM
Ummm.... that's what He did (Died for our sins), right?

Not sure what you are objecting to.

A sacrifice is meant to atone for sins... so I'm still confused as to your intitial comment.


lol, no, I'm supporting the scripture we posted... lol... you misunderstand, because I'm not saying it's bad that he was a scapegoat. A scapegoat was, in the old testament, a goat they used as a symbol for a sacrifice of sin. So jesus was a scapegoat, symbolically.
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
I'm saying that the blame (scapegoat) fell on jesus, for all of us.

ScottRC
Aug 11, 2008, 08:33 AM
i'm saying that the blame (scapegoat) fell on jesus, for all of us.
Ok... but I'm hoping that you'll comment on my earlier post:

I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin... but that he simply resisted.

How do you think it is possible for God to sin?

tsila1777
Aug 11, 2008, 10:43 AM
Matthew 3
13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
The devil did have the power to give Jesus the kingdoms of the world, because after Adam sinned satan became god of this world. It would not have been a temptation if this were not so. Jesus would have known that.
11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you…. That is how you stop sin in your life. The devil is the tempter…we have a choice to follow him or to follow Jesus and say, It is written, Thou shalt not murder…steal…lie…covet…commit adultery… whatever it is that you are tempted to do, there is a Scripture for it. Then draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

Whatever is in your heart will come out your mouth. Feast on the Word of God and it will fill your heart and you will be prepared for every trick of the devil.

The Holy Spirit baptized us with Jesus when we accepted Jesus as Lord, born-again. Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit, evidence of speaking in tongues. These are two separate acts. It is our spirit, sometimes translated heart, that is born-again. Our mind which is our will and emotions must be renewed by the Word of God.

Abraham was under grace, not under law. Abraham was a believer with faith, who loved and obeyed God, and needed no Law. Jesus Christ the promised Seed of Abraham was born and died under the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 21:23; Galatians 3:13). Being made a curse for us, His death and resurrection redeemed us from the curse of the Law, that the blessing of Abraham might come on we Gentiles through Jesus Christ; so we might receive the promise of the Spirit or new birth through faith.
Every Christian was judged and condemned, and has already paid for his sins in Christ on Calvary since we are each Attributes in the Logos of God. Then God raised Christ for our justification so we can never again come into condemnation. We were glorified and made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Romans 4:13-25; 8:28-30; I Corinthians 5:13-21).
We are sons and daughters of Abraham, gentiles, not Jews; we were never under the law. We are now, because of Mercy, under Grace. We are the wild olive branches that were grafted in for a season…the Jews are the natural branches.

I have been accused of writing my posts too long. I am sorry it this is too long.

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 11:51 AM
You're saying that if you have the scripture, then you can resist the devil, and stop sinning? What would happen if you could stop sinning altogether like jesus did? Why didn't abraham need scripture, that wasn't written yet? Are we really sitting in heavenly places right now? I'm asking these, because right now, I have the holy spirit, and I've never spoke in tongues. But I have had what I believe god, speak to me. Although it wasn't a voice, it was a knowing. Once, when I was a teen, he let me know that we were created for his good pleasure. Now, as an adult, that the kingdom is what is important in a person's life. I didn't understand that, but I'm beginning to. Also, I have thought things only to myself, but they have come to pass, and I believe god could read my mind, cause I didn't tell anyone. I believe the more I listen to him, the more I'll hear. He's made some passages of scripture quite easy to understand. Again, it's a knowing, as if I've just discovered something. Not because I was thinking about it so much, but it comes from out of nowhere. However, I think the bible certainly does point us in the right direction, toward finding out what his personality is, and what we should be doing. So I rely on both bible and word, but the living word takes precedence, and the bible should certainly support him. One example:
Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 12:02 PM
Ok.... but I'm hoping that you'll comment on my earlier post:

I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin.... but that he simply resisted.

How do you think it is possible for God to sin?

With what power did jesus do his miracles? With the spirit of holiness, or god's spirit. With what power do we stop sinning? The same spirit of holiness. If we didn't need it, jesus wouldn't have asked the father to send it. Jesus had flesh like us, and he went through the same temptations. We know how we feel when tempted. Did he feel any different? When they nailed him, did he feel pain? So if we are able to sin, then why wasn't jesus? Were the temptations not really dangerous? Was it just a show, especially when he was really hungry and weak, to show us that he's god, and can tie one hand behind his back, and temptation just bounces off? I know he quoted scripture. But scripture will not keep you from sinning, but are a focus for your mind. It's your internal mind and heart that will stop you from sinning. But this is only strengthened over time. I'm not sure how jesus conditioned his spirit, or what took place when he was growing up, but he was impervious to temptation, because of his will to obey god. Not because he couldn't sin.

ScottRC
Aug 11, 2008, 12:37 PM
i'm not sure how jesus conditioned his spirit, or what took place when he was growing up, but he was impervious to temptation, because of his will to obey god. not because he couldn't sin.
Okey dokey... thanks for explaining your beliefs.

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 01:34 PM
Okey dokey... thanks for explaining your beliefs.
Until I hear something that makes me believe different. How do you believe jesus overcame temptation?

ScottRC
Aug 11, 2008, 01:51 PM
until i hear something that makes me believe different. how do you believe jesus overcame temptation?
I believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate... and overcame temptation because of his divine power.

The historical Christian beliefs contend that Jesus was truly 100% God and 100% man... like us in all things EXCEPT for sin... and we believe God COULD NOT sin... but thanks again for your explanation.

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 02:45 PM
I believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate... and overcame temptation because of his divine power.

The historical Christian beliefs contend that Jesus was truly 100% God and 100% man... like us in all things EXCEPT for sin.... and we believe God COULD NOT sin.... but thanks again for your explaination.

Then what need had he of temptation?

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 03:02 PM
To make my point more clear: if jesus was god, then temptation would have had no effect on him. However, since jesus was man, his flesh was working against him, just as it is in us... he had to deal with the physical body. So what does it mean for him to be all god and all man, when temptation arises?

De Maria
Aug 11, 2008, 04:34 PM
Tj3 thanks for the back and forth... it helps to discuss and learn... i'm going home from work. i hope all of us can believe in a living god.

Yes we can!! Amen!

ScottRC
Aug 11, 2008, 04:36 PM
then what need had he of temptation?
Yell tell me... I never said he had a "need" of temptation.

to make my point more clear: if jesus was god, then temptation would have had no effect on him. However, since jesus was man, his flesh was working against him, just as it is in us... he had to deal with the physical body. So what does it mean for him to be all god and all man, when temptation arises?
We just have different understanding of what "divine" means and on the nature of Christ.

De Maria
Aug 11, 2008, 04:36 PM
Baptism does not save.

1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Scripture says it does.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Aug 11, 2008, 04:43 PM
then what need had he of temptation?

None.

Two things.

First thing. As someone on this forum so effectively said in another thread, "There is temptation and there is temptation."

What is the difference?

Well, lets take a nice juicy slice of cantaloupe for example. I imagine that sounds pretty tempting to many folks. BUT NOT FOR ME. I hate cantaloupe.

So, if someone TEMPTS me with cantaloupe. I'm not the least bit tempted.

Understand?

So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.

Second. Satan tempted Jesus so that Jesus could overcome the temptation and give us a model to follow. Jesus is our model:

Matthew 8 22 But Jesus said to him: Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3
Aug 11, 2008, 06:43 PM
1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Maybe to you, taken out of context. Let's look at the passage in context

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to
God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went
and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the
Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV

We see three things discussed here:

1) Noah's Ark and its role in saving people through the flood
2) Water baptism
3) The gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This passage relates these three items by showing how they relate. First Peter speaks the death of Christ on the cross, setting the focus for the passage. As a result of this passage, we know that the focus of the verses that follow are regarding the death of Christ on the cross for our sins.

This death for our sins is then compared, to the flood, with the flood discussed as a symbolic “type” or comparison to salvation which come through the cross of Christ. Then we are told that there is an anti-type, baptism. I often hear the argument that an “anti-type” is the opposite of a type, or as one person recently said, an anti-type being the opposite of a type is “reality”. Unfortunately that argument is not “reality” because in Greek and similar languages, “anti-” often does not mean “opposite” as we understand it in English, but rather means a replacement or a contrast. Thus when we are told about one type, and then we are told that there is an anti-type, what we see here is a contrasting type of the death on the cross.

an·ti·type n.

- One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
- An opposite or contrasting type.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin
Company. All rights reserved.

This understanding also agrees with what Paul said in Romans 6 where he identifies baptism as a “likeness” or symbolic of the death and resurrection on the cross:

Rom 6:3-7
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized
into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just
as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old
man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should
no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

In discussions with proponents of baptismal regeneration, they will often just read out
Romans 6:3 and then stop before you get to the verse which describes baptism as a “likeness” of the death and resurrection of Christ. So we find that Romans 6 and 1 Peter 3 are telling us the same thing – baptism is symbolic.

Now with that in mind, let's look at the verse which you referenced:

1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh,
NKJV

The contrasting types, the ark, which saved Noah and family through the water, and baptism which saves us in the water - as a type. A "type" simply means symbolic, and thus is symbolic of the death and resurrection of Christ through we we are in fact saved.
Now, let's look at the wider context:

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to
NKJV

Salvation came by Christ suffering on the cross for our sins and then we are made alive by the Spirit. Scripture says that there is one baptism, and it is not a baptism that replaces the blood with water, or replaces the spirit with water, but it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Note that by stating that it is water baptism that is essential, what we are in effect being told is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not essential, and that they choose water to replace the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Consider the implications.

1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV

Note that it is water that removes the filth of the flesh, but the water is symbolic of the salvation on the cross. Also note that the substances which cleanses, is the answer of a good conscience towards God. We see a similar reference in Hebrews 9

This passage is very clear regarding the symbolic nature of the various rituals. The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament
Where it is translated as “baptism”.

Heb 9:11-15
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more
perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood
of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all,
having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of
a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 1 4 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this
reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV

We see confirmation here that it is not the water that cleanses, but the blood of Christ sacrificed on the cross.

Tj3
Aug 11, 2008, 06:45 PM
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.


Heb 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
NKJV

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 06:47 PM
De maria, is it possible for us to overcome temptation like jesus did? If yes, then why do we need jesus? Can't we just say no?

Tj3
Aug 11, 2008, 06:51 PM
de maria, is it possible for us to overcome temptation like jesus did? if yes, then why do we need jesus? can't we just say no?

It depends upon whether you are saved. As Paul said, before you are saved, you have the sin nature and are slaves to sin. After you are saved and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you have been freed from slavery to sin. It does not mean that we don't slip from time to time, but we are no longer enslaved to sin.

Rom 6:4-14
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
NKJV

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 07:11 PM
OK, I'll just say that I need the holy spirit to stop sinning, because he shows me my sin. If I wasn't shown where I'm sinning, I wouldn't know what not to do. I think this is the problem today: people have no idea what sin is, so they go around with a cloud of guilt for not doing something. And/or someone tells them what they're doing wrong, as if they know what god wants. Preachers say to stop sinning, but they provide no 'how', or no direction to turn to stop. Who knows what god wants, except god himself. So my point is that we can only stop sinning through the work of the holy spirit in us. Jesus sent his spirit, and he had a reason for doing so.

De Maria
Aug 11, 2008, 07:14 PM
de maria, is it possible for us to overcome temptation like jesus did? if yes, then why do we need jesus? can't we just say no?

You only gave the "if yes" option. Did you not consider "if no"?

The answer is no.

All is grace. We can't overcome temptation without the Grace of God. The grace of God flows to us through Jesus sacrifice on the Cross.

You might ask, "what about the Jews?" Jesus had not yet been sacrificed. How could they overcome temptation if Jesus did not yet die on the Cross?

It is simple. Jesus sacrifice transcends time and space. It is an eternal sacrifice which Jesus offers in heaven. That is why the Catholic Church does not sacrifice Jesus again and again in the Mass as many anti-Catholics allege. The eternal sacrifice of Jesus happened only once but is applied to all human beings who accept God's love throughout human history.

617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation" and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us." And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."

Our participation in Christ's sacrifice

618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men".452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow [him]",454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458


Galatians 6 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.

Sincerely,

De Maria

cogs
Aug 11, 2008, 07:29 PM
...All is grace. We can't overcome temptation without the Grace of God. The grace of God flows to us through Jesus sacrifice on the Cross...

What is that grace? Is it just god saying, 'hey, I forgive you. Now go stop sinning.'? Is not jesus' work ongoing? Why would he send his spirit to us, unless that spirit had something in us to accomplish? We are not left as orphans, to stop sinning on our own. Jesus came to set the captives free, and we are slaves to sin, if we sin, which we do at times. The holy spirit is the purifyer of our spirit. This is spiritual baptism, cause we start to become transformed. We are reborn, to begin to spiritually mature. The seed for rebirth, is the word of god, which is not the bible or scriptures. It's god's word, through the holy spirit. If it happens to sound like the bible, at least it's god repeating himself. And to what end? Aren't we supposed to enter the kingdom of god at some time? When does this happen? Perhaps when we have put on the robes of righteousness, and are purified by jesus? Then we're free from sin.

Tj3
Aug 11, 2008, 07:46 PM
It is simple. Jesus sacrifice transcends time and space. It is an eternal sacrifice which Jesus offers in heaven. That is why the Catholic Church does not sacrifice Jesus again and again in the Mass as many anti-Catholics allege.

Allege? Who is it that you claim is the sacrifice in every mass?

tsila1777
Aug 11, 2008, 10:50 PM
It is the Blood of Jesus, that washes away our sin; not water. Water has been here since the world began, if water was all that was needed why did Jesus have to die on the Cross for the sins of the whole world. If water was all that was needed everyone would be saved, for at one time or another we have all been in water.

Baptism is a 'symbol' of His death and resurrection, a public display that one has accepted the work of the cross, the sacrifice of the Lamb and has made Jesus the Lord of their lives.

Jesus was indeed tempted, and we can resist sin the way He did.

He said 'take no thought saying…' sin first comes as a thought; we can cancel that thought with the word of God. You cannot think one thing while saying another. Try it. You cannot do it. I do not know if the devil spoke to Jesus in an audible voice or not, but the way the devil speaks to us is in our thought life.

God can also speak to us in our thought life, also in an audible voice or though his word or other people. God does know our thoughts and sometimes thoughts can be prayers.

Fundamentalists (those who take the Bible literally) would point out that born again would mean being born of the spirit. (John 3:5)

How else is one to take the Word of God? It is our spirit that is born again; the old man passes away…behold all things become new again.

Church traditions: the traditions of man make the Word of God of no effect. Sorry I do not remember the chapter and verse now…perhaps someone could provide.

Originally Posted by De Maria
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.

How can you tempt someone and they not be tempted? That is what it means to tempt someone. Jesus came in the flesh; he was a man. He was the Word made flesh. God sent His Word and healed them.

ScottRC
Aug 11, 2008, 11:01 PM
Of course they are willingly ignorant of church traditions which teach that baptism, not faith is the means that one becomes born again.
Well, to be clear, the Church teaches that it is by BOTH means that one can be justified/born again:

"The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism.. "
(CCC #1987)

tsila1777
Aug 11, 2008, 11:06 PM
Well, to be clear, the Church teaches that it is by BOTH means that one can be justified/born again:

"The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism.."
(CCC #1987)

Which church?

ScottRC
Aug 11, 2008, 11:07 PM
Which church?
I'm speaking of the Catholic Church in this case... sorry I wasn't clear on that.

Tj3
Aug 12, 2008, 11:49 AM
I'm speaking of the Catholic Church in this case.... sorry I wasn't clear on that.

It would be best to be clear that that is only the teaching of your denomionation to avoid mis-understandings.

De Maria
Aug 12, 2008, 03:58 PM
Allege? Who is it that you claim is the sacrifice in every mass?

The eternal sacrifice is Jesus.

Apocalypse 5 6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.

Or was the Lamb of God slain over and over again in heaven?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Aug 12, 2008, 04:02 PM
Well, to be clear, the Church teaches that it is by BOTH means that one can be justified/born again:

"The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism.."
(CCC #1987)

Excellent! You two are great! I think an interplay amongst Catholics would be great on this forum.

You are correct Scott, it does take both. But, for instance, in the case of an infant, whose faith are we talking about?

And in the case of a convert, whose faith are we speaking of at Baptism?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Aug 12, 2008, 04:09 PM
Fundamentalists (those who take the Bible literally) would point out that born again would mean being born of the spirit. (John 3:5)
Of course they are willingly ignorant of church traditions which teach that baptism, not faith is the means that one becomes born again.

That's awesome. I can honestly say that I never thought about it that way.

That is why Scripture also says:

1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:

And explains why Scripture also says:
Mark 16 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

In other words, faith alone does not save you:
James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

In other words, a person who claims to believe but is not baptized really doesn't believe. So it is the work of baptism which justifies that man:
James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?


The waters of Baptism put to death the old person of sin and gave birth to the new person in Christ. How does a Person become a Catholic. Page 5
The sprinkling with water, which may replace the penitenial rite, reminds us of how we accepted the Lord at Baptism, turning from sin. Thirty Questions about the Mass. Page 16
At baptism I became your child robed in the white gown of your love and friendship and began the adventure of learning about and loving you. Mini-meditations for Morning Prayer, page 21

Wonderful! What source are you referring to?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Aug 12, 2008, 04:32 PM
It is the Blood of Jesus, that washes away our sin; not water.

Correct. Water is the sign of what is happening in our soul.

694 Water. The symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit's action in Baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit it becomes the efficacious sacramental sign of new birth: just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As "by one Spirit we were all baptized," so we are also "made to drink of one Spirit." Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.



Water has been here since the world began, if water was all that was needed why did Jesus have to die on the Cross for the sins of the whole world. If water was all that was needed everyone would be saved, for at one time or another we have all been in water.

Who said that "water was all that was needed"? First, Jesus sanctified the water by permitting Himself to be baptized:

Matt 3 14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Then Jesus explained that without being born again of water and spirit, one could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven:
John 3 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And then Jesus was Crucified for our sins and from His side poured out the water and blood which would wash us of our sins:
John 19 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water.


Baptism is a 'symbol' of His death and resurrection, a public display that one has accepted the work of the cross, the sacrifice of the Lamb and has made Jesus the Lord of their lives.

True. But it is an effective symbol which accomplishes what it symbolizes. First, we are born again into the family of God. In other words, we become brothers in Christ. Sons of the Father:
Hebrews 12 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.

In addition, the water symbolizes the washing of the dirt from our skin as the Holy Spirit is washing the sin from our souls:
Acts Of Apostles 22 16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.

So, the water symbolizes for our eyes, the Spiritual truths with which we are blessed in our souls.


Jesus was indeed tempted, and we can resist sin the way He did.

He said ‘take no thought saying…’ sin first comes as a thought; we can cancel that thought with the word of God. You cannot think one thing while saying another. Try it. You cannot do it. I do not know if the devil spoke to Jesus in an audible voice or not, but the way the devil speaks to us is in our thought life.

Actually, you can. I've done it before. Its called a Freudian slip. When out of your mouth comes what you really believe rather than what you intend to say.

But I think the point you are trying to make is that if you keep your mind on God you will not as easily be tempted. That is true. But we don't have to remember Scripture for that result. We pray. The Rosary is an excellent meditation on the life of Christ which keeps one anchored to God.


God can also speak to us in our thought life, also in an audible voice or though his word or other people. God does know our thoughts and sometimes thoughts can be prayers.

Excellent! I said that above. And you've confirmed it.


Fundamentalists (those who take the Bible literally) would point out that born again would mean being born of the spirit. (John 3:5)

How else is one to take the Word of God? It is our spirit that is born again; the old man passes away…behold all things become new again.

Correct. We certainly don't go back in our mom's womb and come back out physically.


Church traditions: the traditions of man make the Word of God of no effect. Sorry I do not remember the chapter and verse now…perhaps someone could provide.

No need. That is true. But Scripture also says:
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Obviously then, some Traditions are of God and do not make the Word of God of no effect. In fact, these Traditions, since they are of God, are actually the Word of God.

1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.


Originally Posted by De Maria
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.

How can you tempt someone and they not be tempted? That is what it means to tempt someone. Jesus came in the flesh; he was a man. He was the Word made flesh. God sent His Word and healed them.

As I said before. I don't like cantaloupe. So, if you tempt me with cantaloupe, I won't be very tempted.

On the other hand, I love chocolate. But I'm borderline diabetic. So I have to watch my sweets. However, if you tempt me with chocolate, it is very likely I will be overcome by temptation.

Now, Jesus is God and perfect man. So when Satan tempted Him to commit sin, it was as though someone were tempting me with cantaloupe.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Wondergirl
Aug 12, 2008, 05:11 PM
Now, Jesus is God and perfect man. So when Satan tempted Him to commit sin, it was as though someone were tempting me with cantaloupe.
If that's the case, then Jesus really wasn't tempted, didn't think to himself, "Should I or shouldn't I?" It was "No way" from the get-go. No temptation.

De Maria
Aug 12, 2008, 05:18 PM
If that's the case, then Jesus really wasn't tempted, didn't think to himself, "Should I or shouldn't I?" It was "No way" from the get-go. No temptation.

That is what I believe.

I'm willing to inspect any Scripture you have which leads you to a contrary opinion however.

James 1 14 But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.

Did Jesus have concupiscence?

Wondergirl
Aug 12, 2008, 05:34 PM
That is what I believe.

I'm willing to inspect any Scripture you have which leads you to a contrary opinion however.

James 1 14 But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.

Did Jesus have concupiscence?
My Bible (RSV) uses the word "desire." The next verse says, "Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin...." Heb 2:18 tells us that "he himself has suffered and been tempted" and Heb. 4:15 says "[we have] one who in every respect has been tempted as we are... " Jesus was true God and true man, the latter meaning he was up against the same temptations as we are.

Tj3
Aug 12, 2008, 06:23 PM
The eternal sacrifice is Jesus.

Then it is Jesus who you claim to sacrifice in each Mass. Over and over again.

N0help4u
Aug 13, 2008, 04:29 AM
I believe it first means to accept Jesus (salvation) and when you are born again your eyes are open to the corruption and lies of this world and you see the truth. Then you are set free from man's traditions and you see the truth rather than following man [even men of religion if they are teaching man's doctrine] You are set free in your spirit and have discernment.
Too many Christians are blind sheep being led astray by the corruption and deceptions of this world.

Peter Wilson
Aug 13, 2008, 07:33 AM
Cogs, it is very exciting to hear that you are considering receiving the fullness of the Spirit.
In Mark 4
A Lamp on a Stand

21He said to them, "Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don't you put it on its stand?
22For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. 23If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."
24"Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more.
25Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."

Indeed, consider what you hear, if you say God can only do this much, or put Him in a box that you can handle, then that is all he will be to you.
As for me, I knocked down all the walls of unbelief and doubt as far as to the right, the left, in front and behind, as high and as low as is possible, and submit myself to God and whatever He wants to show me.
I used to believe that God would only do this or that and put limits on His power.
If you want to speak in tongues, just submit your tongue to God and just do it!
You don't go into a trance or anything, it's just a prayer language, (1 Cor.14)
God is Spirit and desires all to worship Him in Spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
(1 Cor.14:14)
It is a prayer language that only God can understand, the enemy (the devil) cannot understand it!
It is like a secret code language the Holy Spirit with our spirit enables us to speak.
Being baptized, is symbolizing Christ's burial and resurrection, (Romans 6)
We do it to follow His example and show obedience.
To be Born again, is from God alone.
John 1
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Our spirit is immersed into the Holy Spirit. And we we become one with God.
we become alive to God and the Holy Spirit makes us aware of sin and begins to change us from the inside out.


John 14
Role of the Spirit
16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

When you first believe, the Holy Spirit is with you, when you submit yourself completely to God from your heart, then you open the door for the Holy Spirit to enter.
It is His job to teach you all things.
John14
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 16
Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.


In 1 John 2
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

The anointing is the Holy Spirit.
He will teach you all things. Don't believe any-one, ask the Holy spirit to confirm all that you have heard from me or anybody else.
If you can't confirm it in the word of God, then discard it.
As far as sin is concerned, you have feelings, these want to be satisfied, the devil knows man's weakness and his pride.
He knows how to tempt us as he has his demons watching us at all times.
If we are tempted, then that is not a sin, if we are led away by that temptation, and fulfil that desire, then that is a sin. (That is, if that desire is in ordinate lust or greed or the other lusts mentioned in Galatians 5)

Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
5Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

God is not against feelings, but He wants you to desire the higher feelings, like love, peace , joy etc.
As the others on this forum can attest, when the Joy of the Lord comes upon you, you laugh and cry at the same time.
In Nehemiah 8:10
Nehemiah said, "Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is sacred to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength."

If your rejoicing in the Lord all the time , speaking to yourselves in psalms hymns and spiritual songs, it doesn't give the devil a foothold, that's how you resist temptation.
If you sin , just confess your sin to Jesus, God is not angry, sin doesn't worry Him, He's got it covered!
If you confess your sin, then He will forgive you and wash you from an evil conscience.
If you have thoughts of condemnation after you sin, that is the accuser (satan's name means accuser), don't even listen to him, tell him to shut up and get out!
When you confess your sin, you are coming into agreement with God, and He likes that!
If you feel condemned after you confess your sin, then you believe the accuser and stand with him, against God.
Better to believe God and receive forgiveness and rejoice!

Bless you heaps, Jesus said that all the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner repents.

Peace bro'!
:)

N0help4u
Aug 13, 2008, 07:50 AM
I am about ready to burn my Bible according to THE Church being the final authority!
What good is the Bible when THE Church trumps it with things that go contrary to the Bible teachings!!

tsila1777
Aug 13, 2008, 09:12 AM
He said 'take no thought saying…' sin first comes as a thought; we can cancel that thought with the word of God. You cannot think one thing while saying another. Try it. You cannot do it. I do not know if the devil spoke to Jesus in an audible voice or not, but the way the devil speaks to us is in our thought life.


Actually, you can. I've done it before. Its called a Freudian slip. When out of your mouth comes what you really believe rather than what you intend to say.

That is not at all what I meant. In your mind start counting to 20 and then at the same time say the names of the months. If you say you can do both at the same time without forgetting to count, I will believe you. But you will be the first person I have ever heard of that can do that.

We tried this at church one day, and no one was able to do it.

IF the devil is saying things in your mind of guilt, shame or unbelief, temptations, start saying the Word out loud and that will drown out the voice of the devil in your mind.



blessings

N0help4u
Aug 13, 2008, 10:04 AM
Tsila
The Bible has several verses that say out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

James 3
3Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? Either a vine, figs? So can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Calvary Fellowship » Out of the Abundance of the Heart (http://www.calvaryfellowship.org/blog/2008/06/04/out-of-the-abundance-of-the-heart/)

tsila1777
Aug 13, 2008, 11:00 AM
This is true. So we do need the Word of God in out hearts in order to speak it out of our mouths. And we need the Holy Spirit to help us control our tongue so that we speak blessings and good things.

Blessings to you

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 11:23 AM
My Bible (RSV) uses the word "desire." The next verse says, "Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin...." Heb 2:18 tells us that "he himself has suffered and been tempted" and Heb. 4:15 says "[we have] one who in every respect has been tempted as we are..." Jesus was true God and true man, the latter meaning he was up against the same temptations as we are.

Did the evil well up from within Jesus?

Mark 7 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile a man.

Tj3
Aug 13, 2008, 11:26 AM
I am about ready to burn my Bible according to THE Church being the final authority!
What good is the Bible when THE Church trumps it with things that go contrary to the Bible teachings!!!!

We have to decide what our authority and standard of truth is - is it an institution of man? Or is it God's word.

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 11:38 AM
Then it is Jesus who you claim to sacrifice in each Mass. Over and over again.

Nope. Jesus was only sacrificed once. But He continues the same sacrifice in heaven.

Apocalypse 5 6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.

I get it. You don't know anything about the nature of Jewish sacrifices.

Remember, Jesus is our Pasch:

1 Corinthians 5 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.

After the lamb was sacrificed, the High Priest would enters the temple and offers the sacrifice to God:

Heb 9 6 Now these things being thus ordered, into the first tabernacle the priests indeed always entered, accomplishing the offices of sacrifices. 7 But into the second, the high priest alone, once a year: not without blood, which he offereth for his own, and the people's ignorance:

Do you understand that if Jesus did not enter the heavenly temple and offer the Sacrifice to God, it would not matter that Jesus was crucified on the Cross. It is the offering of the Sacrifice which accomplishes the sacrifice.

And Jesus does not offer the sacrifice IN time but in eternity. That is why it is a once for all sacrifice:

Heb 9
11 But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation: 12 Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and of oxen, and the ashes of an heifer being sprinkled, sanctify such as are defiled, to the cleansing of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who by the Holy Ghost offered himself unspotted unto God, cleanse our conscience from dead works, to serve the living God?

If anyone ever wondered, this is why it was imperative for Him to come before the Father:
John 20 17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 11:39 AM
We have to decide what our authority and standard of truth is - is it an institution of man? Or is it God's word.

The Church was established by God.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u
Aug 13, 2008, 11:41 AM
I have yet to see the Biblical connection that proves Peter started the RCC.
I mean I can say I went to Washington D.C. and spent a year and even had a tour of the White House and that would not make me the President of the U.S.A.

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 11:45 AM
I am about ready to burn my Bible according to THE Church being the final authority!
What good is the Bible when THE Church trumps it with things that go contrary to the Bible teachings!!!!

That is the Protestant problem. The Bible says, don't lean on your own understanding and obey the Church and calls the Church the Pillar of Truth.

But, since you don't want to obey the Church, but you want to obey your own inclinations, you would rather discard the Bible than obey it.

I would rather obey the Bible and because the Bible says so, I obey the Church and my leaders within the Church. I believe this is the more Biblical attitude.

Sincerely,

De Maria

N0help4u
Aug 13, 2008, 12:05 PM
BUT again WHAT CHURCH... I have yet to see where it is the Catholic church.

Why so you say you would rather obey the Bible to try and prove the RCC IS the Biblical church yet you insist the RCC is to be believed over the Bible??
Seems like a lot of picking and choosing to me!

cogs
Aug 13, 2008, 02:46 PM
Cogs, it is very exciting to hear that you are considering receiving the fullness of the Spirit.
...(1 Cor.14:14)
It is a prayer language that only God can understand, the enemy (the devil) cannot understand it!
It is like a secret code language the the Holy Spirit with our spirit enables us to speak.
Being baptized, is symbolizing Christ's burial and resurrection, (Romans 6)
We do it to follow His example and show obedience.
Our spirit is immersed into the Holy Spirit. and we we become one with God.
we become alive to God and the Holy Spirit makes us aware of sin and begins to change us from the inside out.


John 14
Role of the Spirit
16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

When you first believe, the Holy Spirit is with you, when you submit yourself completely to God from your heart, then you open the door for the Holy Spirit to enter.
It is His job to teach you all things.
John14
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 16
Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

In 1 John 2
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

The anointing is the Holy Spirit.
He will teach you all things.

I understand the meaning of baptism. But, as in this scripture, there's no qualification for baptism, in order to receive the gift of the holy spirit from the father. I totally agree with you about the holy spirit making us aware of sin and changing us from the inside out. When jesus said he would lead us into all truth, then what is untrue in us is made evident, and to be ejected from our spirit and lifestyle. That, peter, and I say this is all love and respect, is what is the true baptism, because it does purify us from that which does not belong in us.

Mar 1:8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit. ASV

I am not saying in any way that people cannot be baptized with water. I think even some people think that the water has some power in it, that literally changes our insides. With water, though, this is not my experience, knowing the laws of physics. But that is not the point.
I was a little disappointed, cause I saw that you were excited for me, but then I realized it was not because I believed like you do, that the holy spirit is now changing me from the inside out. But thank you for reading my posts, and thank you for yours.

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 03:00 PM
BUT again WHAT CHURCH...

That is the decision you have to make. I can only tell you which decision I made and why.


I have yet to see where it is the Catholic church.

Perhaps because you don't know as much about the Catholic Church as I.

For instance, I know that the only Church that gives daily Communion is the Catholic Church:

Luke 11 3 Give us this day our daily bread.

Acts 2 46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;

The Catholic Church is the only Church which steps in faith and accepts her role as Pillar of Truth:

1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The Catholic Church is the only one that recognizes that Jesus named Simon His representative and in confirmation of that fact, gave Him a name which previously referred to God alone:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Catholic Church accepts the responsibility of binding and losing men from sins:

John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.


Why so you say you would rather obey the Bible to try and prove the RCC IS the Biblical church yet you insist the RCC is to be believed over the Bible??
Seems like a lot of picking and choosing to me!

Well yes. I pick the Catholic Church's interpretation over yours.

Like so many Protestants, you believe that your interpretation of the Bible is equivalent with Scripture. That is rather arrogant. And Jesus has said:

Matthew 23 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

We on the other hand, accept the Church's interpretation before our own. And when we do interpret it is in obedience to the parameters stated by the Catholic Church which in Scripture is called our Pillar of Truth.

You may select another Church. And that is fine. But you have no Scriptural grounds to tell me not to believe the Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 03:04 PM
I have yet to see the Biblical connection that proves Peter started the RCC.

Peter didn't. Jesus did.

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


I mean I can say I went to Washington D.C. and spent a year and even had a tour of the White House and that would not make me the President of the U.S.A.

Nor could you find that information in the Scriptures. The fact that you went to Washington would be found only in your personal notes and perhaps the business receipts of the companies you engaged for your travel.

In the same way, St. Peter's Bishopric in Rome is not mentioned in the Scriptures. But it is mentioned in Church tradition, Church history, in Roman history and in world history.

Sincerely,

De Maria

cogs
Aug 13, 2008, 03:32 PM
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I don't know the full meaning of this, but it doesn't sound like a physical church. And the name isn't catholic. Perhaps you can shed some light on what your interpretation of this scripture means, and not just the part about peter starting a church, but the scripture as a whole?

Forget it, I'll put a new post in main. Thank you.

Tj3
Aug 13, 2008, 06:33 PM
Nope. Jesus was only sacrificed once.

Right.


But He continues the same sacrifice in heaven.

Not on in scripture, and even if it were true, your denomination is not heaven.

Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering
NKJV

Do you know what "one sacrifice" means? Do you know what "forever" means?

Tj3
Aug 13, 2008, 06:41 PM
The Bible says, don't lean on your own understanding

So why does the Roman Chruch say to lean on the understanding of men?


and obey the Church and calls the Church the Pillar of Truth.

Nowhere are we told to obey any denomination. As for the "pillar of truth".

1 Tim 3:15-16
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
NKJV

What does scripture say?

Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
NKJV

So we see that individuals who "overcome" are the pillars. Who are those who overcome?

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV

There is much more in scripture, but it is clear that it those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them. If the word of God abides in them, then the word of God preceded the church, and the pillars of the church are the individuals who are saved, which agrees with what we read in scripture:

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

The church is not an organization, but it is the body of Christ, of overcomers, those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them.

The physical church building represents the church insofar as it has the "pillars" to uphold the word of God within the church, if not, like any building without pillars, it falls. Further, the foundation is Jesus:

1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

And where the pillars are absent, so is the foundation absent and again, the building must fall.

No church organization/denomination can stand as a Church of God unless it has Jesus Christ as it's foundation and those who are saved and in whom the word of God abides as it's pillars.

Tj3
Aug 13, 2008, 06:43 PM
Peter didn't. Jesus did.

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Why do Roman Catholics leave out the context of this verse to make it appear to say something that it doesn't?

Matt 16:13-18
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NKJV

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 08:42 PM
So why does the Roman Chruch say to lean on the understanding of men?

Because God loves men and established many to be our leaders in the Spirit:

Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,...17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Question: Who taught you the alphabet? Who taught you to count? Was it men? Or was it a spirit or something?


Nowhere are we told to obey any denomination.

We are told to obey the Church.
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.


As for the "pillar of truth".

1 Tim 3:15-16
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
NKJV

What does scripture say?

Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
NKJV

So we see that individuals who "overcome" are the pillars. Who are those who overcome?

Those who overcome are those who persevere to the end.

Note that the Pillar of truth is here and now. St. Paul is going to teach them how to behave in it.

But those who overcome will be appointed pillars at the resurrection.


1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

The very word, overcomes, entails perseverance to the end.


1 John 2:14
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV

There is much more in scripture, but it is clear that it those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them. If the word of God abides in them, then the word of God preceded the church, and the pillars of the church are the individuals who are saved, which agrees with what we read in scripture:

It doesn't change the fact that Scripture calls the Church the pillar of truth.

And you are taking this verse from 1 John generalizing very broadly from this one verse of 1 John.

First of all, it is written to a select group of young men whom St. John knows have overcome the evil one.

Second, he still admonishes them to:
15 Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him.

Why would he do so unless they could fall?

29 If you know, that he is just, know ye, that every one also, who doth justice, is born of him.

Notice how he says "if" you know him at the end. And right before he warns them to "abide in him". That is a direct reference to his Gospel, chapter 15:

27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be confounded by him at his coming.

John 15 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.


1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

The church is not an organization, but it is the body of Christ, of overcomers, those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them.

That verse is pretty much telling that the Church is an organization. The body is composed of "organs". Another word for body is "corporation." The body of Christ is literally Christ's incorporation.


The physical church building represents the church insofar as it has the "pillars" to uphold the word of God within the church, if not, like any building without pillars, it falls. Further, the foundation is Jesus:

1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

And where the pillars are absent, so is the foundation absent and again, the building must fall.

No church organization/denomination can stand as a Church of God unless it has Jesus Christ as it's foundation and those who are saved and in whom the word of God abides as it's pillars.

Therefore, the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ since it has all those earmarks.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 08:43 PM
Why do Roman Catholics leave out the context of this verse to make it appear to say something that it doesn't?

Matt 16:13-18
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NKJV

Doesn't change anything. If anything, it confirms the Catholic position.

Tj3
Aug 13, 2008, 08:45 PM
Doesn't change anything. If anything, it confirms the Catholic position.

Only if you believe their private interpretation and mis-translation. I prefer what the Bible says.

Your choice.

De Maria
Aug 13, 2008, 08:48 PM
Only if you believe their private interpretation and mis-translation. I prefer what the Bible says.

Your choice.

My choice is the Catholic interpretation. I believe yours is the mistranslation.

Tj3
Aug 13, 2008, 08:51 PM
Because God loves men and established many to be our leaders in the Spirit:

So you admit that Roman Catholics lean on the understanding of men (which is, BTW, private interpretation).


We are told to obey the Church.
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

This does not command us to obey your denomination or any other. It speak of local church discipline.


It doesn't change the fact that Scripture calls the Church the pillar of truth.

But is does refute the false teaching that it is a manmade organization, whether we speak of your denomination or any other denomination.


Why would he do so unless they could fall?

Man can reject their salvation.


That verse is pretty much telling that the Church is an organization. The body is composed of "organs". Another word for body is "corporation." The body of Christ is literally Christ's incorporation.

Wow! How you can conclude that is beyond me. It says the exact opposite.

Tj3
Aug 13, 2008, 08:51 PM
My choice is the Catholic interpretation. I believe yours is the mistranslation.

You chose the private interpretation of man.

I stick with what the text says in the original language.

N0help4u
Aug 13, 2008, 08:52 PM
So you admit that Roman Catholics lean on the understanding of men (which is, BTW, private interpretation).


This does not command us to obey your denomination or any other. It speak of local church discipline.

But is does refute the false teaching that it is a manmade organization, whether we speak of your denomination or any other denomination.

Man can reject their salvation.

Wow! How you can conclude that is beyond me. It says the exact opposite.

Ran out of greenies :D

Exactly what I have been saying. Own interpretation of man!

Peter Wilson
Aug 14, 2008, 02:57 AM
i understand the meaning of baptism. but, as in this scripture, there's no qualification for baptism, in order to receive the gift of the holy spirit from the father. i totally agree with you about the holy spirit making us aware of sin and changing us from the inside out. when jesus said he would lead us into all truth, then what is untrue in us is made evident, and to be ejected from our spirit and lifestyle. that, peter, and i say this is all love and respect, is what is the true baptism, because it does purify us from that which does not belong in us.

Mar 1:8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit. ASV

i am not saying in any way that people cannot be baptized with water. i think even some people think that the water has some power in it, that literally changes our insides. with water, though, this is not my experience, knowing the laws of physics. but that is not the point.
i was a little disappointed, cause i saw that you were excited for me, but then i realized it was not because i believed like you do, that the holy spirit is now changing me from the inside out. but thank you for reading my posts, and thank you for yours.

Hey Cogs, baptism by full immersion in water does have a spiritual significance.
It is an act of obedience to God, and this is the first way that show our desire to obey God.
When I got baptized, no-one had spoken to me about it, the Holy Spirit told me to get baptized by full immersion when I was 21.
I rejected it, as I was a catholic and believed that I was in the right church.
I told the Holy Spirit that, "If I didn't settle down in the world by the time I hit 35, then I would follow Him then, even if I had to become a priest or a monk or a nun!" (I was being sarcastic with the Holy Spirit, I glad He didn't just fry me then!)
When I was 35, I had been using and selling drugs for 17 years, I was a binge drinker, smoked, swore, living in sin, steal anything that wasn't nailed down etc.
I was on my way to kill some-one that had slept with my fiancée, the first time, an angel stopped me, the second time, God spoke to me in an audible voice, quite loud too.
He said, "NOW,GO AND GET BAPTIZED"
There is more to this story, but that is another story.
I found a church that believed in the gifts of the Spirit and full immersion baptism and got baptized on a Wednesday night.
I didn't expect anything to happen, I was just going to go and get baptized and leave, I had no interest in going to any church.
I got into this big tub thing that they used to use for baptisms, and after confessing my faith in Jesus and that He died and rose again, I was laid back under the water.
I was only under a second or two, but as soon as I broke the surface of the water, I felt different. I felt clean, there is no other way to describe it!
I dried off and went into their meeting. The strangest thing was, as I looked at these strangers, I had this feeling in my guts, that I had come home. I walked around and looked intently into everbody's face, I didn't know any body, yet I felt that I had come home!
I felt like the prodigal son, ( which is the exact representation of a sinner returning to God)
I lost the desire for sin, even though I continued to smoke for a couple of weeks, I gave up drugs and fornication, drinking took a few weeks too, but the desire just went away.
I continued purely by habit.
But this was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is a wholly separate thing.
They prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit, they told me to keep saying Hallelujah over and over and just go with whatever comes.
I started to speak in tongues, as the Hallelujahs started getting mixed up.
I thought that I was making it up, as I had done it before when I was 21. (I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in the backyard of my parents home in Adelaide, though I didn't know that is was the Holy Spirit, I thought that I had made up a new language myself!)
I perservered for a couple of months, speaking in tongues now and then, then I went to a Christian camp and they had a prayer meeting where a lot of people would pray in tongues for an hour before the main meeting.
I thought,"Wow, praying for a whole hour in tongues," I had only done it for a few minutes at a time.
I thought that I would give it a go, and went in there the next morning.
I had been praying in tongues, for about 50 minutes when the Holy Spirit reminded me of all the dreams that I had had, those many years ago, and that I had been baptized in the Spirit at the same time. He also reminded me of the all the other things that He had told me way back then
I had to drive to Sydney for some work, after the meeting, it was about a 4 1/2 hour drive.
I laughed and cried all the way, and I hadn't cried since I was 10 years old!
You just have ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit and receive it by faith.
Then just start speaking in tongues, it doesn't matter what you say, just make up a language and start speaking.
As you pray, and are submitted to the Holy Spirit, He comes and supernaturally, you receive a prayer language.
You will notice the change in your tongue (language) as you pray, it will just flow out, you don't have to concentrate, or think of what you are going to say next, just pray!
If you can, pray for an hour at least, at least once a week, it usually takes 30-40 minutes for our fleshly mind to get out of the way and our spirit to really get into worship.
Pray for a half hour each day and you will really get built up in the spirit.
It is the most natural thing when you do it, you wonder what the fuss is all about, it just fits.
The reason that I am excited for you, is that you are very close to the kingdom of God, but the main thing is to believe what the Holy Spirit is saying to you right now!
What ever I say or anybody else says, don't believe it unless you can prove it by the word of God.
Be like the Bereans
Acts 17
10As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Don't trust me or anybody else for you salvation, trust God.

Peace:)

Peter Wilson
Aug 14, 2008, 03:08 AM
De Maria

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
And he will make your paths straight.

Peter Wilson
Aug 14, 2008, 03:45 AM
De Maria,
There is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome, he may have been taken there to be killed, but there is not even any evidence of that.
Lets look at Peter's ministry,

Galatians 2

6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.
7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.
9James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.


Funny how their ministry was to the Jews and Paul's was to the gentile romans!

Paul, speaking in Romans 11
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Peter went to Antioch, Samaria, Joppa, Ceasarea and other places, but not Rome.
If he had, then it would have been mentioned as Rome was considered the most important city in the world.
The Catholic Encyclopedia says that a tradition appeared as early as the third century for the belief that Peter was the bishop of Rome for 25 years, these years, according to Jerome, were from 42 A.D. until 67 A.D.
The problem is, that about the year 44, Peter was in the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15).
About 53, Paul joined him in Antioch, (Galatians 2:11)
About 58, Paul wrote his letter to the Christians at Rome in which he sent greetings to 27 persons, but didn't mention Peter!
If Peter was the head of the church, then this would be a bit of a oversight on Pauls part.
Cheers. :)

cogs
Aug 14, 2008, 07:28 AM
Hey Cogs, baptism by full immersion in water does have a spiritual significance.
It is an act of obedience to God, and this is the first way that show our desire to obey God.
When I got baptized, no-one had spoken to me about it, the Holy Spirit told me to get baptized by full immersion when I was 21.
I rejected it, as I was a catholic and believed that I was in the right church.
I told the Holy Spirit that, "If I didn't settle down in the world by the time I hit 35, then I would follow Him then, even if I had to become a priest or a monk or a nun!" (I was being sarcastic with the Holy Spirit, I glad He didn't just fry me then!)
When I was 35, I had been using and selling drugs for 17 years, I was a binge drinker, smoked, swore, living in sin, steal anything that wasn't nailed down etc.
I was on my way to kill some-one that had slept with my fiancee, the first time, an angel stopped me, the second time, God spoke to me in an audible voice, quite loud too.
He said, "NOW,GO AND GET BAPTIZED"
There is more to this story, but that is another story.
I found a church that believed in the gifts of the Spirit and full immersion baptism and got baptized on a Wednesday night.
I didn't expect anything to happen, I was just going to go and get baptized and leave, I had no interest in going to any church.
I got into this big tub thing that they used to use for baptisms, and after confessing my faith in Jesus and that He died and rose again, I was laid back under the water.
I was only under a second or two, but as soon as I broke the surface of the water, I felt different. I felt clean, there is no other way to describe it!
I dried off and went into their meeting. The strangest thing was, as I looked at these strangers, I had this feeling in my guts, that I had come home. I walked around and looked intently into everbody's face, I didn't know any body, yet I felt that I had come home!
I felt like the prodigal son, ( which is the exact representation of a sinner returning to God)
I lost the desire for sin, even though I continued to smoke for a couple of weeks, I gave up drugs and fornication, drinking took a few weeks too, but the desire just went away.
I continued purely by habit.
But this was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is a wholly separate thing.
They prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit, they told me to keep saying Hallelujah over and over and just go with whatever comes.
I started to speak in tongues, as the Hallelujahs started getting mixed up.
I thought that I was making it up, as I had done it before when I was 21. (I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in the backyard of my parents home in Adelaide, though I didn't know that is was the Holy Spirit, I thought that I had made up a new language myself!)
I perservered for a couple of months, speaking in tongues now and then, then I went to a Christian camp and they had a prayer meeting where a lot of people would pray in tongues for an hour before the main meeting.
I thought,"Wow, praying for a whole hour in tongues," I had only done it for a few minutes at a time.
I thought that I would give it a go, and went in there the next morning.
I had been praying in tongues, for about 50 minutes when the Holy Spirit reminded me of all the dreams that I had had, those many years ago, and that I had been baptized in the Spirit at the same time. He also reminded me of the all the other things that He had told me way back then
I had to drive to Sydney for some work, after the meeting, it was about a 4 1/2 hour drive.
I laughed and cried all the way, and I hadn't cried since I was 10 years old!
You just have ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit and receive it by faith.
Then just start speaking in tongues, it doesn't matter what you say, just make up a language and start speaking.
As you pray, and are submitted to the Holy Spirit, He comes and supernaturally, you receive a prayer language.
You will notice the change in your tongue (language) as you pray, it will just flow out, you don't have to concentrate, or think of what you are going to say next, just pray!
If you can, pray for an hour at least, at least once a week, it usually takes 30-40 minutes for our fleshly mind to get out of the way and our spirit to really get into worship.
Pray for a half hour each day and you will really get built up in the spirit.
It is the most natural thing when you do it, you wonder what the fuss is all about, it just fits.
The reason that I am excited for you, is that you are very close to the kingdom of God, but the main thing is to believe what the Holy Spirit is saying to you right now!
What ever I say or anybody else says, don't believe it unless you can prove it by the word of God.
Be like the Bereans
Acts 17
10As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Don't trust me or anybody else for you salvation, trust God.

Peace:)
I thank god he got your attention before you ruined some lives. I can totally see how the spirit could see your future, and then remind you how he was trying to warn you. I don't know how you quit your habits, other than god blessing you. I don't know how you will hear god speaking, when you're not listening, and praying in tongues. I have tried tongues before, but I always thought it was just talking, and thought that if I just pray, and listen to god, it's just as good. As far as obedience, god hasn't prompted me to get baptized (I already have been, but not full immersion), and hasn't prompted to speak in tongues. Right now, I'm trying to obey what I know, and listen to god in case he speaks to me (which I believe he has in the past), so I'll be prepared to not resist, but obey. I need cleansing on the inside, by obeying, and not continuing my way. This is what I think is purification. It's wonderful that god was doing a good work in you all the time, which is as you said about the prodigal son.

De Maria
Aug 14, 2008, 08:10 AM
I'm glad you brought this up. It highlights a great difference between Catholics and Protestants.


So you admit that Roman Catholics lean on the understanding of men (which is, BTW, private interpretation).

Why yes? Which Scripture are you reading? Here the BIBLE tells me to lean on the understanding of men:

Hebrews 13

7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Is that Scripture missing from your Bible?

Here Jesus sent men to teach the world what He taught:

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

And here, St. Paul is obviously doing the same thing, he is teaching Timothy to teach others who would find others to teach and on and on:

2 Timothy 2 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

So, the Bible is telling me to lean on the understanding of men. Show me where the Bible tells me that I shouldn't listen to them.

Here's a bit more:

Jesus said we should be like little children. Little children learn from their parents:
Matthew 18 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Oh and the Israelites came to Moses to learn the Will of God:
Exodus 18 15 And Moses answered him: The people come to me to seek the judgment of God.

And God told the Israelites to teach their children:
Deuteronomy 4 10 From the day in which thou didst stand before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord spoke to me, saying: Call together the people unto me, that they may hear my words, and may learn to fear me all the time that they live on the earth, and may teach their children.

So, throughout Scripture, God tells us to lean on the understanding of men.


This does not command us to obey your denomination or any other. It speak of local church discipline.

Certainly it does. This speaks to all men and says that the Church is authority over our disputes. Further it says if we don't obey the Church we will be cast out.


But is does refute the false teaching that it is a manmade organization, whether we speak of your denomination or any other denomination.

I never said the Church was manmade. Unless you mean because Jesus is both God and man. The Church was made by Jesus. That is Catholic teaching.


Man can reject their salvation.

And thereby lose it.


Wow! How you can conclude that is beyond me. It says the exact opposite.

Really? Is your body disorganized? What do you think the word "organization" means?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Aug 14, 2008, 08:14 AM
De Maria

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

Very good! Did I say to lean on your own understanding or why did you post this?

Here's one for you:

What does this mean:

Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Does this mean I should learn from the leaders of my Church? Or does this say that I should not lean on their understanding but on my own?

Sincerely,

De Maria

tsila1777
Aug 14, 2008, 02:45 PM
Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

Acknowledge him, meaning God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit....

He shall direct your ways....

Tj3
Aug 14, 2008, 06:34 PM
I'm glad you brought this up. It highlights a great difference between Catholics and Protestants.

Or Mormons and Christians. (Remember you believe as Mormons do that men become God and that heaven is a place of everlasting fire)


Why yes? Which Scripture are you reading?

You do know that all scripture must be read in context and that you cannot take snippets out of context to argue a point.

Prov 3:5
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
NKJV

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Here the BIBLE tells me to lean on the understanding of men:


Hebrews 13
7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

First let's note that you omitted a large portion of scripture and tied two verses together that are not following one another in scripture. By so doing, you are changing what scripture says. Let's look at the context, using a better translation:

Heb 13:7-17
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
NKJV

Note that this refers to men of God whose faith shows their focus on God, and you are to follow the Bible so as not to get carried away with strange doctrines. These men therefore are to teach you the Bible.


Is that Scripture missing from your Bible?

No, but you seem to be missing verses 8-16!


Here Jesus sent men to teach the world what He taught:

Really? Where do any of these passage say that they did not teach what the Bible teaches?


Certainly it does. This speaks to all men and says that the Church is authority over our disputes. Further it says if we don't obey the Church we will be cast out.

Only if you apply your private interpretation to the meaning "church". BTW, there are many church organizations today that would cast Jesus out for telling the truth of the gospel - that does not mean that we should obey a church denomination which does not adhere to the word of God.


I never said the Church was manmade.

Denominations are all manmade.



And thereby lose it.

Did yours fall out of your pocket?

tsila1777
Aug 15, 2008, 02:58 AM
What are the signs and how do you know for sure, that you have been "Born again"?

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14And as Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3:
31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. (meaning Jesus)
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Mark 16:

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.



Rom 15:
18For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


Hebrews 2

1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

When you confess you are a sinner and in need of Salvation, when you believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and confess with your mouth His Lordship. The signs that follow will be a change of heart, of attitude, but we must remember Jesus is the Head of the church, and the Word of God is Truth.

We were given aplostle, prophets, teachers preachers, to teach us and for the perfecting of the saints. But we were also given the Holy Spirit, and a heavenly language to lead us into all truth.

We are called the children of God and His Spirit dwells in us,and will lead us into all truth. We are to compare anything that is told to us, no matter what title he calls himself, we are to compare it with the Word of God, God will not contradict Himself.

We know we are the children of God if we walk in love for God is Love, and do those things pleasing in HIS sight.

If God's Word is not final authority in one's life they need to, in my opinion, repent and either get born-again, or if they are born-again, renew their minds with the word of God as we are instructed to do.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



Jesus is our High Priest, and we have been made priests unto God, so that we now have a Way to God, Jesus is the Door, we can go into the very Presence of God in His Name, and fellowship with our Father. God said for us to call upon Him and He would answer us, He would be our everpresent Help in time of trouble, and He would show us His Salvation.

Peter Wilson
Aug 15, 2008, 06:57 AM
Very good! Did I say to lean on your own understanding or why did you post this?

Here's one for you:

What does this mean:

Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Does this mean I should learn from the leaders of my Church? Or does this say that I should not lean on their understanding but on my own?

Sincerely,

De Maria

The word "Faith", in this verse is "Pistis", the living, Divinely, implanted principle.
The word "follow", is "mimeomai"in Greek, it means to imitate.
The word "considering" is "Anatheoreo", which means to "gaze on with purpose and attention".
The word "conversation" is "Anastrophe" which means "manner of life".

This is saying that we should pay attention to those who have rule over us and if their life is in accordance with the way of God, then we should imitate them.

Yesterday, in Sydney, a Catholic priest was charged with 30 counts of sexual assaults on boys.
I wouldn't be to good to follow his example, would it?
He had rule over those boys, they had to submit to him as their spiritual leader, they put their full trust in him, now he has ruined 30 more lives, not to speak of the boys families and friends.
This is a very common thing, even today, in the Catholic church, but not only the Catholic Church.
How-ever, we are talking about the Catholic church, pointing the finger at some-one else, does not justify the sins that is so prevalent in this church.
Priests should be allowed to marry, so that they don't burn with sexual lust, this is a big mistake by this church.
As for me, I will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, and whatever my leaders say, I will either know, from my knowledge of the Bible, or I will check it out to confirm it.
Actually, when you have the Holy Spirit, and have read the Bible from cover to cover a few times, and read it every day, you know as soon as some-one uses a word out of context, or a false doctrine as soon as they say it.
You feel it straight away in your spirit.
There is one thing that I would like to know, have you actually had any spiritual experiences, or is all your knowledge come only from the doctrines of the Catholic church.
Cheers,:cool:

Peter Wilson
Aug 15, 2008, 07:49 AM
i thank god he got your attention before you ruined some lives. i can totally see how the spirit could see your future, and then remind you how he was trying to warn you. i don't know how you quit your habits, other than god blessing you. i don't know how you will hear god speaking, when you're not listening, and praying in tongues. i have tried tongues before, but i always thought it was just talking, and thought that if i just pray, and listen to god, it's just as good. as far as obedience, god hasn't prompted me to get baptized (i already have been, but not full immersion), and hasn't prompted to speak in tongues. right now, i'm trying to obey what i know, and listen to god in case he speaks to me (which i believe he has in the past), so i'll be prepared to not resist, but obey. i need cleansing on the inside, by obeying, and not continuing my way. this is what i think is purification. it's wonderful that god was doing a good work in you all the time, which is as you said about the prodigal son.

The first life I would have ruined would have been mine, if I hadn't come to the Lord at that time, I would either be dead or in prison now!
Bad habits are usually demons that need a body to act out their lusts.
If you make yours available, then they will use it.
Continual sin will give place to demonic forces that will control your mind and your will.
Their only legal right to stay in or on you, is by unconfessed sin.
If you feel compelled to do something, like drink or smoke or look at pornography, then there is a demon controlling you.
I have a friend that is in Long Bay Psyche Ward, this is a high security prison.
He was only using grass, but started getting into the occult.
He told me once that he went to the catholic church with his parents and a huge demon followed him back to his car and hung onto the roof till he got home.
He was a kid at the time, but he was terrified.
That demon probably stayed there waiting for an opportunity, when he got into the occult, it entered into him.
Before this happened and he was telling me about his life, I told him to stay away from the occult, don't even read your stars in the paper as you invite demons in when you do these things.
I told him that if he got into the occult and continued to use drugs, the demons would either try to kill him or make him kill some-one else.
Unfortunately, he didn't listen and stabbed his mother and father and brother, to death, and then continued living in the house for nearly a week before some-one got suspicious.
When you are baptized by full immersion, it removes the sin and therefore the legal right for the demon to stay.
It is easy then to get rid of the habit as you are no longer compelled to do it.

Do you have any dreams, God speaks to you in dreams,
Numbers 12
6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

Peter quoted Joel in acts 2 and said

16but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
19'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
20'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
21'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

God will speak to you in dreams, He speaks to many people that way, also in visions, which is the way that I and most people that I know that prophesy now, hear from God.

It is also a still small voice, as in 1 Kings 19

11And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:

12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave.


You know that it is God speaking to you when it is great wisdom and something that you didn't know before.
It also fills you with joy, when He speaks, but there is one thing that you must remember, stay very still in your mind, do not think or say anything when the Lord is speaking to you, or He will stop immediately.
Don't even say thank-you until He has finished speaking.
Ask God for dreams and visions, if you have a dream, perhaps I can help interpret it for you.
If you are in the dream, it is about you, if you are only observing, it is about some-one else.
If there are things in your dream that you don't understand, then ask yourself, "what does this thing mean to me?"
For instance, a car could be a church, a motor bike could be a ministry, a storm could be spiritual attack etc.
Ask God to reveal Himself in your dreams and expect it to happen, if you don't expect it then it probably won't happen.

Hebrews 11

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking, never give up.
Seek first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness and all these things will be added to you!
Peace and dreams!:)

tsila1777
Aug 15, 2008, 07:55 AM
I don't want to piggy back, but when was the Catholic church first established? It seems to my memory, that it was established long before Jesus was even born of the Virgin Mary... and before Peter was born.

Peter was married, because Jesus healed his mother-in-law. So why does the Catholic church not allow the priest to marry? And why when one is caught doing that, the Catholic church just moves them to another church.

And what about the verse that says, we ought to obey God rather than man?

In Acts 2:
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (prophesy means to preach)
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


The Holy Ghost is a witnesses...and we have received Him, He abides in us, in our spirit and He speaks through us and tells us things to come and what is to be. God speaks to us through His Spirit to our spirit. My pastor says that we should not take every word he says as 'gospel', but that we should study on our own and see that those things are true.



Acts 11:25 6And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people.And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

My sister and her husband were Catholic, and they did not call themselves Christians, they said they were Catholic.

N0help4u
Aug 15, 2008, 08:04 AM
I can understand the distinction between salvation and born again in the same way the Bible says soul and spirit they have two distinct functions YET they can NOT be separated.

The difference between salvation and born again to me is
salvation is Jesus paying the price for our sin so we could have salvation
born again is more like the awakening of your soul and spirit to the truth.

tsila1777
Aug 15, 2008, 08:59 AM
Born-again. Jesus was the firstborn of many brethren. He was born-again when He was raised from the dead.


Peter 1:21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:


23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Jesus is the Seed of God, by which we are 'born-again'.

The first Adam was born-again when he ate the forbidden fruit. God told him he would die, that was not a physical death. His spirit died, became darkened. He knew he was naked.

The Second Adam was Jesus the Christ. He redeemed us from the curse, He paid the price and restored us. It is our spirits that are born again when we accept what Jesus did for us. He said the old things are passed away, behold all things are new again.

Salvation means: nothing missing, nothing broken. Salvation is of the Lord. He said He would show us His salvation. He would show us how to live a godly life until He sends for us. And all His promises are in Him yes and in Him amen. So be it.

Our soul is our mind, will and emotions. Our minds have to be renewed by the Word of God. As well as our spirit must be fed on the Word of God. The fruit of the spirit are in our spirit. Notice the little s…But the Gifts of the Spirit are of the Holy Spirit and He operates them as He wills through us if we are willing to obey Him.

And the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. God's very own Love is in us, in our spirits so we are able to love our enemies with the Love wherewith He loved us.

The battle between good and evil is still in our minds... our will to follow Jesus or our emotions... selfishness, anger, willfulness... these are the flesh the senses, how we contact the physical world. We do not actually 'make up our minds' we make up our will. Do we allow our emotions to rule or do we allow the will to follow Jesus to rule?

The Word said 'he that is born of spirit is spirit'. God is a Spirit, we are His children, and we are spirits. The spirit is the inner man, often translated heart. That is where trinity abides. He said “I will come and make my abode with you” Jesus said “he that abides in me and my Words abide in him, can ask whatsoever he will and it shall be done for him.”

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit abide in our spirits.

I am not sure I explained that well, as I am in a hurry waiting for my two sisters to come over.

But man is three dominions, spirit, soul and body. This body is just our earth suit, Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

and Forgive me if it sounds like I am rambling, I am in a hurry.
, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

make man in our image, after our likeness: Gen 1: 26And God said, Let us So God created man in his own image, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27
the image of God created he himin male and female created he them; And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 2:7

Wondergirl
Aug 15, 2008, 09:16 AM
Salvation = God the Father sending His Son Jesus to die on the cross

born again = the Holy Spirit dwelling in a person in order to begin the sanctification ("making holy" -- growing in grace) process

Peter Wilson
Aug 16, 2008, 06:35 AM
The battle between good and evil is still in our minds...our will to follow Jesus or our emotions...selfishness, anger, willfulness...these are the flesh the senses, how we contact the physical world. We do not actually 'make up our minds' we make up our will. Do we allow our emotions to rule or do we allow the will to follow Jesus to rule?

The Word said 'he that is born of spirit is spirit'. God is a Spirit, we are His children, and we are spirits. The spirit is the inner man, often translated heart. That is where trinity abides. He said “I will come and make my abode with you” Jesus said “he that abides in me and my Words abide in him, can ask whatsoever he will and it shall be done for him.”

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit abide in our spirits.

I am not sure I explained that well, as I am in a hurry waiting for my two sisters to come over.

But man is three dominions, spirit, soul and body. This body is just our earth suit, Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

What an excellent post, this is exactly the case, I concur wholeheartedly!

On another point, I believe that the Holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit and Jesus Spirit, come together to make one Spirit.
As we are made in His image, and how the figure of marriage is constantly used for the union of Jesus and the Church, even though two separate entities, come together as one.
This is why in Genesis 2 it says -

23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


If we are MADE in the image of God, the emphasis is on the Made.
Eve was always a part of Adam, she was taken from him and made a helper for him.
When they come together, they form another person, or spirit.
A man, before he is married, has his own way of doing things, as does a woman.
If they continue in doing things to satisfy their own desires and needs and not those of each other, then that marriage is not very stable and will probably fail.
If the husband and wife choose to enjoy each others company and forego their previous life styles, then they will grow closer and closer together, eventually even finishing off each others sentences sometimes.
Their spirits truly become one and a new spirit is born, (so to speak), and wherever one or the other is, the spirit of the other is there with them.
I believe that this is the image God is talking about, "Man" in Genesis 5, is man AND woman, not just Adam.
"MAN is made in God's image," if that is the case, if it were a mirror persay, then God is made in man's image. (I say this just to make a point, not that God is made in OUR image, for those that may take this out of context)
I believe that Jesus was taken from God, made a separate person with a separate Spirit.
He then came together with God the Father and their Spirits form the Holy Spirit.
So, wherever the Holy Spirit is, Jesus is there; and so is the Father.
That is why Jesus is called the Firstborn of all creation, and in Revelation 3

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Does that make sense to you? It was what I believe, God revealed to me a few years ago, after I pestered Him for the explanation of the Trinity for at least 15 years.
I would stand to be corrected if you could show that I was wrong, but as it is, it's a great story to tell the Jehova's Witnesses, they are shocked as the trinity is their favorite weapon against the Christian Church.
It shakes their doctrine to it's very core, they believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, not the true Son of God.
It's their best hook for taking people out of the Catholic church as they have no explanation and little knowledge of the scriptures.
Once you agree with them on one point, it's easy for them to get you to agree on another, then another, then another.
Just like the devil, he uses something small, like smoking or swearing when we are children, then slowly adds more and more rebellion until some commit murder or turn to drugs or suicide.
No-one decides to become a murderer overnight, or rob a bank overnight, it's a small step at a time.
I will say one thing for satan, he knows his business! And he knows our weakness!

Sorry, now I'm raving on!

Again, may I say how much I enjoyed your post, hope you weren't too late to see your sisters.

Cheers :) :)

tsila1777
Aug 16, 2008, 07:57 PM
No, we had a great time; it was a lovely afternoon. We enjoyed the peace and quiet of a nice cool day, at my country home, porch swings and great conversation. Thank you.

The Trinity is difficult to understand that is why faith is so important... but remember, in the beginning was the Word... and later the Word was made flesh, Jesus... He sent His Word and healed them. The Holy Spirit I believe is the very essence of God. The most tender part of Him, that's why blaspheming against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Some have even compared Him, the Holy Spirit, to a mother figure; the tenderness of a mother's care, love, teaching and sweet comfort.

I liked the way you described the relationship between a husband and wife. That was a good analogy. The Bible also uses that in some places, that is why, I believe, people get confused and think we are the Bride of Christ instead of the body. He said we are the body and members in particular. A man does not marry his own body. In Rev, the Spirit reveled who the Bride was, 'and I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem coming down….

From the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, His death and resurrection, until He returns for us, the Word calls us a peculiar people, a royal priesthood. Before that, the Jews were under the Law, the gentiles were outside, with no hope, but Jesus came and grafted us into the Olive tree for a season. We are under Grace, we who believe on Jesus, the Son of God.

Reconciliation making two one…. Now there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, bond nor free but all are one in Christ Jesus.

Peace and blessings,
t