It's ownership by your own decision.. You decided what you do.. You decided what you believe..

ARE WE? The word ignorant is found 17 times in the Word of God. Are we foolish and ignorant as beast before Our Lord? What are the patterns of our thoughts each day? Where do those thoughts take us? How does the Word of God fit into that pattern of thoughts each day? Do we remain foolish and ignorant?

Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.
Psalms 73: 26-28 My flesh and my heart faileth: God [is] the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever. For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.But [it is] good for me to draw near to God: [B]I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

One of the things that we gained when we received new life in Jesus Christ is an awakened spiritual nature. We came to know what God considers sin and what is righteous behavior. We are still learning this more and more as we walk with Him.

But until we leave this world our flesh still clings to us. We have a spiritual nature from God and a fleshly nature as an effect of the rebellion of Adam and Eve against God. That means that we have a "battle" going on in our minds between these two.

Rom 7:14-25

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do — this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!
NIV

In these few lines, Paul explains why some of David's Psalms(and other parts of Scripture) confess failure to be perfectly following God's will while others speak about us being the very "righteousness of God".

Our failure is all in the realm of Sanctification(our growth in holiness in this life) and not in the realm of Justification(our having been saved by the blood of Christ).
God has declared us righteous/justified but is still working on our new life with conviction by His Spirit. The Spirit teaches us daily things we haven't learned. Thus God uses the word "ignorant" - we still don't know it all. We are "disciples". We are learning.

And as we study His Word and aim at righteous living, we grow. That we make mistakes in our lives or even backslide into former sins we see that we still need to learn how to use the spiritual weapons which God has given to us to fight the good fight of faith.

In summary: We now have two natures. With our renewed spirit we serve God... with our clinging flesh we show our ignorance of how to follow the new life in Christ completely.

Job 12:13
“But true wisdom and power are found in God;counsel and understanding are his.

Proverbs 2:2
Tune your ears to wisdom,and concentrate on understanding.

Proverbs 3:13
Joyful is the person who finds wisdom,the one who gains understanding.

Proverbs 14:6
A mocker seeks wisdom and never finds it,but knowledge comes easily to those with understanding.

Proverbs 14:33
Wisdom is enshrined in an understanding heart;wisdom is not found among fools.

Proverbs 19:8
To acquire wisdom is to love oneself;people who cherish understanding will prosper.

Proverbs 21:30
No human wisdom or understanding or plan can stand against the Lord.

It is the attitude of our hearts with which we seek wisdom and understanding that will determine if we remain ignorant or become wise.

Psalm 19:7
The instructions of the Lord are perfect,reviving the soul.The decrees of the Lord are trustworthy,making wise the simple.

Psalm 107:43
Those who are wise will take all this to heart;they will see in our history the faithful love of the Lord.

Proverbs 9:8
So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you. But correct the wise, and they will love you.

One of the things that we gained when we received new life in Jesus Christ is an awakened spiritual nature. We came to know what God considers sin and what is righteous behavior. We are still learning this more and more as we walk with Him.

But until we leave this world our flesh still clings to us. We have a spiritual nature from God and a fleshly nature as an effect of the rebellion of Adam and Eve against God. That means that we have a "battle" going on in our minds between these two.


In summary: We now have two natures. With our renewed spirit we serve God....with our clinging flesh we show our ignorance of how to follow the new life in Christ completely.

I agree with you and the scripture you refer does definitely add an explanation for our daily paths and pattern of life which we take. And indeed Adam and Eve actions did set the path for man.

Genesis 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

But I still go back to scripture in 1 Corinthians colored in teal below.The scripture tells us pretty much the same which you refer: But it also tells us as an example of what not to do, because God was displeased with them. And note did all drink of the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

All said and done we should see the light, and understand better today because of the examples that are in scripture for us to be advised and encouraged as it is written.

ARE WE? The word ignorant is found 17 times in the Word of God. Are we foolish and ignorant as beast before Our Lord? What are the patterns of our thoughts each day? Where do those thoughts take us? How does the Word of God fit into that pattern of thoughts each day? Do we remain foolish and ignorant?
In a way, I'd have to say "yes":

As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").
CCC #418

... but we believe the victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Rom 5:20).

Peace be with you.

All said and done we should see the light, and understand better today because of the examples that are in scripture for us to be advised and encouraged as it is written.[/QUOTE]


Yes, we "should". But we sometimes have a difficulty in "seeing the light" with any real clarity. Or maybe I should say that we don't know how to take the examples of the past and put them into advantages practice of walking with God.

Our problem is an ignorance because of our still being imperfect. As even Paul said:

Our problem is an ignorance because of our still being imperfect.
Why would anyone want to become perfect? And why would being imperfect be a problem?

:rolleyes:

·

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;




Yes, we "should". But we sometimes have a difficulty in "seeing the light" with any real clarity. Or maybe I should say that we don't know how to take the examples of the past and put them into advantages practice of walking with God. .

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment [is] a lamp; and the law [is] light; and reproofs of instruction [are] the way of life:

God said: Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant. So with all the promises and love God gives us. And He gave us light because light is the law. The way in life.. If we don't see the light, that path became filled with excuse or allowance, which becomes the ownship of choice. Yet still an excuse.


Our problem is an ignorance because of our still being imperfect. As even Paul said: .

No I don't think for a moment we can be perfect. And I don't believe God ever expects us to be perfect. So where should we go in our pattern of life? But to seek the Lord, and to thus to the light, and testimony.

Isaiah8:19-29 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? For the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

I would hope choice was each day is with the Lord. Otherwise the result is as Isaiah 8:19-20 speaks of being no light in them

In a way, I'd have to say "yes":

As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").
CCC #418

...but we believe the victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Rom 5:20).

Peace be with you.

Thus once again an excuse or allowance given to a path taken. And in this excuse, are you thinking Christ will allow the same. For that is not so.

Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

But rather God tells us be holy.

Lev 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.

I agree that Christ won over in victory this is your scripture refer: Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Romans 2:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yet again look at the verse just before Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Then you can see it is still the path they have elected to take. They remain ignorant to Truth, and thus to the knowledge of the Word of God.

Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

This is not for us to worry about, because God will draw near to those that draw near to Him.
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


We need not judge the hearts of others. Christ is on the right hand of God.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

It is the attitude of our hearts with which we seek wisdom and understanding that will determine if we remain ignorant or become wise.



Yes... And all the scriptures you offered shows this wisdom... A gift of wisdom and love.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:34-35 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 9:23-24 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


Come after Me, deny yourself, take up the cross, follow... The ignorant will do as they please with excuse.

And I rejoice in that claim of Truth.. and tell you, he that is not of God heareth not .

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

Psalms 25:5 Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou [art] the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

And I rejoice in that claim of Truth .. and tell you, he that is not of God heareth not .
And from me you may BELIEVE that !

:D

And from me you may BELIEVE that !

:D

Don't be ignornant to the Truth, for God is a consuming fire.

There are 3 verses in scripture that speak of God as the consuming fire. Each time refer. God's anger being pushed by the ignorance of man.

The first Deu 9:3 is the tribe of Anakins which were known as the tribe of "Giants" those born of woman by the falling angels = sons of god.
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

God was brought to show His anger upon them, and did away with those Anakins that were with the children of Israel.

[B]Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God [is] he which goeth over before thee; [as] a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Jos 11:22 There was none of the Anakims left in the land of the children of Israel: only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, there remained.

2. The second time again God finds evil being done, and He again is refer as the consuming fire in Due 4:24

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu 4:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt [yourselves], and make a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

3. The third time is a warning us not to anger God, but to serve Him with love, as He love us.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

So heed the warning, God is a consuming fire, to Him give all glory and honor.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


Christ is our Saviour

Don't be ignornant to the Truth, for God is a consuming fire.
You BELIEVE that !


Christ is our Saviour
You BELIEVE that !

:rolleyes:

·

You BELIEVE that !


You BELIEVE that !

:rolleyes:

·



Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.


O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

YES I BELIEVE!!!

Let me explain this clearly with example.. What I pointed out was the description of what shoes could be put on. One will give you blisters, and one will give you comfort..

It is you who puts your own shoes on...

Have a good walk today.

Post #13 Points to the shoes a person puts on for his or her walk in life


Then you can see it is still the path they have elected to take. They remain ignorant to Truth, and thus to the knowledge of the Word of God.

Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

This is not for us to worry about, because God will draw near to those that draw near to Him.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


We need not judge the hearts of others. Christ is on the right hand of God.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Post #11 Wisdom is found in these scriptures


Thus once again an excuse or allowance given to a path taken. And in this excuse, are you thinking Christ will allow the same. For that is not so.

Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

But rather God tells us be holy.

Lev 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.

I agree that Christ won over in victory this is your scripture refer: Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Romans 2:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yet again look at the verse just before Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Wisdom in understanding the guidance God's Word does offer His children.

Err yes indeed we ALL are.

Err yes indeed we ALL are.

God does not want us to be ignorant. And shows us the example.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The Word of God comes as encouragement or like it says for our admonition
Ownership is making the choice. Like putting on a pair of shoes to walk through life. God gives everyone that choice..


Choice.. Ownership


1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

The word ignorant is found 17 times in the Word of God

Word of God? The bible is the word of man, God never wrote a book. The bible is mans word, stories that the apostles claim happened, not the actual word of God. Why do you think the bible contradicts itself endlessly, it's because it was written by different men, years after the events occurred (if they occurred).

If you insist on quoting scripture, quoting the bible, if you wish to have a religious discussion with like minded people, then perhaps you should post in the Christian forum, there you will be able to discuss your beliefs with others that believe the same thing.

Before you ask, yes, I believe in God, but I believe in a tolerant, kind, caring, forgiving God, is he the same God you believe in, I'm still trying to figure that out, how can he be if our beliefs are so different? I do not believe in a man written book, men are fallible, not perfect, therefore you cannot take the bible at face value, that's my opinion.

Now, to address your question, are we foolish and ignorant? Yes, many are, in fact, in one time or another we all show foolishness and ignorance, these are human traits, so of course, as humans we do possess these traits.

If you are basing your question solely on bible scripture, then I don't know how to answer your question, not because I haven't read the bible, but because I don't believe the bible is fact.

Can you pose your questions, state your claim in a way that we can all understand and accept?

If you insist on quoting scripture, quoting the bible, if you wish to have a religious discussion with like minded people, then perhaps you should post in the Christian forum, there you will be able to discuss your beliefs with others that believe the same thing.

Let me set the record straight, I did post this in the Christian forum. It appears in two ways #1 someone under the management of this web site felt it was better discussed under religion, #2 it appeared here under religious discussion without refer to me.[/



Before you ask, yes, I believe in God, but I believe in a tolerant, kind, caring, forgiving God, is he the same God you believe in, I'm still trying to figure that out, how can he be if our beliefs are so different?

People all over the world have different gods. So I would acknowledge my God as the flawless, loving, forgiving, all powerful God of rightousness. My God gave of himself out of love and mercy by giving His Own Begotten Son, Christ. My God has the power and strength to create everything on earth including the bible. My God wrote the bible throught His Spirit known as The Holy Spirit . All done yesterday, today and tomorrow in that same presence as the Holy Spirit here on earth with us.[/



I do not believe in a man written book, men are fallible, not perfect, therefore you cannot take the bible at face value, that's my opinion.

Man is falliable, but God is NOT. God is perfect without blemish. God wrote His letter the bible to: guide us, protect us, and to show His love.



Word of God? The bible is the word of man, God never wrote a book. The bible is mans word, stories that the apostles claim happened, not the actual word of God. Why do you think the bible contradicts itself endlessly, it's because it was written by different men, years after the events occurred (if they occurred).

I don't believe the bible contrasts itself. But you are correct to say man, who have tried to teach this letter the bible, can cause their actions of natural blemish to occur. That is why it's important for all to read, themselves, the letter that is written. God is a revealing strength, and power who will allow His children to understand. Those that draw near to God, He will draw near to them in pure heartedness of love. Jesus told us His sheep hear His voice and follow.



Now, to address your question, are we foolish and ignorant? Yes, many are, in fact, in one time or another we all show foolishness and ignorance, these are human traits, so of course, as humans we do possess these traits.

Again you are correct. That is the reason I offered the scripture God sent in refer:
1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Everything God wrote is of example for us and to us. God's love and protection to guide you, and help you in life's sorrows and blessings. To understand them, God has told us of obedience in trusting Him. And in the fear of loosing His love when you deny Him. God tells us of evil on this earth, and you can see satan at work doing what he has done from the beginning in deserving whomever will follow in his darkness.



If you are basing your question solely on bible scripture, then I don't know how to answer your question, not because I haven't read the bible, but because I don't believe the bible is fact.

My God wrote the bible through strength and power of the HOLY SPIRIT. Choice to deny this is owned by that one who chooses to deny the Holy Spirit. And I will add, denying the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin... I do not ask anyone to follow man, but it is for us to believe in God, and all His creation (that would includes the bible).



Can you pose your questions, state your claim in a way that we can all understand and accept

I have tried to do so for those who will hear and hold God's love in faith, in light, and in grace. God reveals to those who call upon Him. That is why I ask, what pattern in life do you follow each day? "Our "choice, "Our" foolish ignorance is ownership only to that choice should anyone not believe.

With all respect : that is what you BELIEVE.


With all respect : that is what you BELIEVE.

I have no problem what-so-ever with what you believe. The question is if what you believe is reality.
But many mistakes and contradictions in the bible point either into the direction of a completely unguided man-made book, or a non-perfect guiding god entity. Why would anyone take whatever you believe as reality?

:rolleyes:

·

A child of God... They hear His voice and follow God..

There are however sons of the devil.. and the murderer from the beginning was Cain.John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

Reality... a shoe that can fit.. choice... ownership...

My God wrote the bible through strength and power of the HOLY SPIRIT. Choice to deny this is owned by that one who chooses to deny the Holy Spirit. And I will add, denying the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin... I do not ask anyone to follow man, but it is for us to believe in God, and all His creation (that would includes the bible).

Your God? Well, perhaps he is yours and yours alone, the God I believe in would never punish someone for having doubts.

You believe that the bible was written by the Holy spirit. What about the apostles, the men that actually wrote the bible?

Not believing in the Holy spirit is an unforgivable sin? The God I believe in forgives all sins, but you say this one is unforgivable. Also you state that man must believe in the Bible. Why? I've studied the bible, I can quote scripture left right and centre, that's why I choose not to follow what is written in it. I mean no disrespect, if you choose to follow the bible's teachings that's fine, your choice, but do not tell me that I must.

Is the fact that I do not believe in the bible and Church threatening to you? If so, why? Do you really think that reading a book and going to Church will earn you favor with God?

The more I hear the happier I am with my faith, the more it confims to me that I am doing the right thing for me.


told us His sheep hear His voice and follow.

Sorry, never been a great sheep, I usually lead, I'm not much for following.

I respect your right to believe but I do not respect you claiming that your way is the only way, your rules or punishment.

Good luck.

Posted in #33 Before you ask, yes, I believe in God, but I believe in a tolerant, kind, caring, forgiving God, is he the same God you believe in, I'm still trying to figure that out, how can he be if our beliefs are so different?

Logically this question suggests that you were comparing the God you believe in and the God I believe in?



Your God? Well, perhaps he is yours and yours alone, the God I believe in would never punish someone for having doubts.

Reasoning this statement out, I figure that I could have done the same to your original question.. But I did not try to discredit your choice in anything that you said or what your belief is.. Secondly God is a very understanding God, and without blemish. Now I ask you, how would your parents feel if you questioned their rules and guidence when they were raising you? Were they there and understanding, yet giving into every wrong turn you made. Or did they teach you right from wrong with rules, and guidence? If God were to send someone to help you with those doubts, would you hear them?



You believe that the bible was written by the Holy spirit. What about the apostles, the men that actually wrote the bible?

Yes I do believe the bible was written by the Holy Spirit using the disciples, and apostles as willing men to follow. Their love was great and faithful to God. As I also believe God did all miracles. Not one miracle was done by man himself. God is the creater of all. This would include God's chosen one the Virgin Mary. God found favor in Mary to work His blessing of grace through her to bring Christ, for us. And Mary felt joy and love to serve God.



Not believing in the Holy spirit is an unforgivable sin? The God I believe in forgives all sins, but you say this one is unforgivable.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.



Also you state that man must believe in the Bible. Why? I've studied the bible, I can quote scripture left right and centre, that's why I choose not to follow what is written in it. I mean no disrespect, if you choose to follow the bible's teachings that's fine, your choice, but do not tell me that I must.

This is true, it is my choice. And you have the right to your own choice.



Is the fact that I do not believe in the bible and Church threatening to you? If so, why?

No because my choice goes along with my responsibility to my own life, and I will be held accountable for that choice in life. Your choice is your path and responsibility in life.



Do you really think that reading a book and going to Church will earn you favor with God?

I feel you have more to gain by reading the bible yourself, and that God would love to have all His children enjoy what He has to tell them. As for going to church, I acknowledge two or more gathered together speaking of His name, God is with them by the Holy Spirit presence.

Point of fact: I need not give reason for my own choice in church. To find a church that will claim nothing more then God's Word as Truth is difficult. Most try to improve upon God's Word by offering their own mortal blemished errors in traditions and objects that make them think they are closer to God.



I respect your right to believe but I do not respect you claiming that your way is the only way, your rules or punishment.

This is not necessary .. I did not claim that you must follow me.. I only said God's children follow Christ because they hear His voice.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Sorry, but I don't believe that, it's a bible passage, I think I've made it quite clear that I do not put faith in the bible.


Secondly God is a very understanding God, and without blemish. Now I ask you, how would your parents feel if you questioned their rules and guidance when they were raising you? Were they there and understanding, yet giving into every wrong turn you made. Or did they teach you right from wrong with rules, and guidance? If God were to send someone to help you with those doubts, would you hear them?

Yes my parents taught me right from wrong, they also let me make mistakes and learn from them. They taught me to think for myself, to question things and find my way in this world. They did have rules, which I respected, never once did the threaten hell if I didn't obey. If I made mistakes I was forgiven, always, not matter what I did.


I feel you have more to gain by reading the bible yourself, and that God would love to have all His children enjoy what He has to tell them. As for going to church, I acknowledge two or more gathered together speaking of His name, God is with them by the Holy Spirit presence.

I have never gained anything from reading the bible except fear of hell and damnation. I have read the bible, and if believing in the bible is the only way to God, then I guess I'm doomed. The second part of your quote, can you rephrase it, to my understanding of what you wrote you believe that the presence of the Holy spirit is with Priests, is that correct?


I only said God's children follow Christ because they hear His voice

And his voice is in the bible? Well, it seems that once again I'm doomed.


Logically this question suggests that you were comparing the God you believe in and the God I believe in?

Not so much comparing, but trying to understand how our beliefs can be so different if we both believe in God. Maybe I do believe in something different than you, and if so, what does that mean? Does it mean that you are following the wrong path, or that I am, and how does anyone know for sure which path is right? I'm questioning, trying to find an answer, an answer that I know, for me, doesn't lie in the bible or church. So, where to go from here? I honestly don't know.

I am happy with my beliefs, I am comfortable knowing in my heart that I do not have to conform in order to believe in God. That's what I believe.

Why did I come to your thread? I was interested in what you had to say, because I don't agree. I do agree that it's your life and your choice to believe what you want. Since this is in religious discussions this thread is open to discussion by all, and I came here to state what I believe. I didn't mean to offend you, if I have then I apologize.

Good Luck.

Sorry, but I don't believe that, it's a bible passage, I think I've made it quite clear that I do not put faith in the bible.

I am not pointing a finger, nor do I find this form of thinking that odd, because many people feel the same that you do. On the other hand, I don't find anything impossible with God, and trust by all that is written God knows better then I, and more then I.


Yes my parents taught me right from wrong, they also let me make mistakes and learn from them. They taught me to think for myself, to question things and find my way in this world. They did have rules, which I respected, never once did the threaten hell if I didn't obey. If I made mistakes I was forgiven, always, not matter what I did.

What I view in this statement is what you did.. You respected your parents! And they had rules! They taught you right from wrong! And they taught you to think for yourself! Mistake were forgiven! I think you had great parents, and I feel you were a loving child.. Did you make mistakes..Yes, yet that is how we learn ... by mistakes... God talks about all of this, and His forgiveness, mercy, and love. .. (no matter what I did)? This is the one statement that throws aside respect.. no matter what I did? Have you ever don't anything really bad? The reason I say this is because we do have really bad in some people. When you see the world and what takes place day in and day out. Doesn't some of it make sense to needing enforcement for those who don't respect, and don't love others?



I have never gained anything from reading the bible except fear of hell and damnation. I have read the bible, and if believing in the bible is the only way to God, then I guess I'm doomed.

I feel the bible examples how God has tried to clean up the mess men have made. And some of these are harmful to others. I also feel the bible shows how God is trying to protect us from satan. And how satan each day is the cause of evil that is here on earth. God wants us protected from the evil, yet to understand He is presence, and He will help us in our fight against satan when doing anything harmful to us or throught us.


The second part of your quote, can you rephrase it, to my understanding of what you wrote you believe that the presence of the Holy spirit is with Priests, is that correct?

As for going to church, I acknowledge two or more gathered together speaking of His name, God is with them by the Holy Spirit presence....The presence of the Holy Spirit is with all that want Him. It's God! Not just priests, but any that gather together in His Name will and does call upon God's presence. We have the open veil, through Christ, to walk through and speak to God ourselves. God request that we do that, and it pleases Him to have you speak to Him of His promises. (Book of Isaish) I know you don't look to scripture.. but I myself would rather look to scripture then to men that read one verse or two and impress traditions.




And his voice is in the bible? Well, it seems that once again I'm doomed.

God is in your heart. And your heart, mind, and soul can hear if you want to hear. Please don't get me wrong in thinking I worship a book or scriptures. I don't! The work that was done to create the bible was done as loving sevants to God in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.



Not so much comparing, but trying to understand how our beliefs can be so different if we both believe in God. Maybe I do believe in something different than you, and if so, what does that mean? Does it mean that you are following the wrong path, or that I am, and how does anyone know for sure which path is right? I'm questioning, trying to find an answer, an answer that I know, for me, doesn't lie in the bible or church. So, where to go from here? I honestly don't know.

There is difference belief, we view that around the world. The focus of my belief is Christ because Christ is who God Our Father sent to us. Apart of God as the begotten Son of God. How else could God put Himself here on earth to save us, other then by creating a son from Himself to do it. The Creater of all.. You do admit to needing God right? Is the God you love, include Christ, and His Spirit? Our Father will reveal all to whoever ask.. How do we know? By faith, and not by objects and metals, and statues. Just by faith that lies within your heart. I think you have that faith... I feel somewhere alone the path of your life something or someone has thrown a question in, and perhaps you just need to stop the question. Don't allow satan' attemping his work.



Why did I come to your thread? I was interested in what you had to say, because I don't agree. I do agree that it's your life and your choice to believe what you want. Since this is in religious discussions this thread is open to discussion by all, and I came here to state what I believe. I didn't mean to offend you, if I have then I apologize.

Again your choice.. And thank you, I do note the pureness of heart in your discussion. I hope you find what you need.

God talks about all of this, and His forgiveness, mercy, and love...But if you don't follow his rules, you go to hell .... And as George Carlin continued such lines : "But he loves you"!


I feel the bible examples how God has tried to clean up the mess men have made.
How can men have made such mess, if God made them in his (perfect) image?
And who created good AND bad? Why would a perfect being create bad? And than blame men to have bad tendencies?


I also feel the bible shows how God is trying to protect us from satan.
Why would God not simply ban all bad, including satan? He is supra-natural, doesn't he?

:rolleyes:

·

One of the things that we gained when we received new life in Jesus Christ is an awakened spiritual nature. We came to know what God considers sin and what is righteous behavior. We are still learning this more and more as we walk with Him.

But until we leave this world our flesh still clings to us. We have a spiritual nature from God and a fleshly nature as an effect of the rebellion of Adam and Eve against God. That means that we have a "battle" going on in our minds between these two.

Rom 7:14-25

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do — this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!
NIV

In these few lines, Paul explains why some of David's Psalms(and other parts of Scripture) confess failure to be perfectly following God's will while others speak about us being the very "righteousness of God".

Our failure is all in the realm of Sanctification(our growth in holiness in this life) and not in the realm of Justification(our having been saved by the blood of Christ).
God has declared us righteous/justified but is still working on our new life with conviction by His Spirit. The Spirit teaches us daily things we haven't learned. Thus God uses the word "ignorant" - we still don't know it all. We are "disciples". We are learning.

And as we study His Word and aim at righteous living, we grow. That we make mistakes in our lives or even backslide into former sins we see that we still need to learn how to use the spiritual weapons which God has given to us to fight the good fight of faith.

In summary: We now have two natures. With our renewed spirit we serve God....with our clinging flesh we show our ignorance of how to follow the new life in Christ completely.


Just my opinion, a great reply / post. :D Thank you.

How can men have made such mess, if God made them in his (perfect) image?
And who created good AND bad? Why would a perfect being create bad? And than blame men to have bad tendencies?

God created the cherub, Satan: he was created perfect in every way, until his own "PRIDE" of being perfect in beauty and wisdom was found in him. God created this perfect cherub out of love, and allowed him greatness.

Now tell me how many people do you know, that would give thanks for such a blessing? How many people wish life here on earth could be perfect? However:What if like in satan the perfect world of all people you are asking for were to also find they too, are greater then God ? What's left to be created, that might be thankful of such a blessing rather then what Satan brought in his Pride? Perhaps a Zombie of loving thankfulness is the answer. I can tell you it is not what God wants of His children.

God created Adam and Eve.. You know what followed.. Is is so hard to believe that satan, with all his pride, wants to deserve the world and attempt to gain out of his pride those who will follow him?



Why would God not simply ban all bad, including satan? He is supra-natural, doesn't he?

Think of what you are asking for God to do. Man is not perfect because of what perfection can bring. And God does not want His children as Zombies! Are you ask God to kill off the bad rather then what He did do for us all. God gave apart of Himself in sending His Son Jesus to save us. Aren't we all sinful, Aren't we all bad? Do you wish for God to kill us all?

Point of Fact:

Eze 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Encouragement:

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Why? ..
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

We need to help in this fight against satan by understanding God's love for His children. We should be aware of Truth.. We have been foretold.

And YES this is what I choose to believe with my heart, mind and soul. We have a loving God who does try to protect His children.

How can men have made such mess, if God made them in his (perfect) image?

Perfect image?. No way, I don't know who told you that or where you read that?

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This to me means His [own] because all souls belong to God, so God made each of us as He wanted us to be.

Post #43
Just my opinion, a great reply / post. :D Thank you.

I think your opinion came from someone else..
revdrgade does say in his or her summary:
redrgade QUOTE:We now have two natures. With our renewed spirit we serve God....with our clinging flesh we show our ignorance of how to follow the new life in Christ completely.

Our mistakes in life are indeed the growth toward knowledge, and having the forgiveness of Christ and in Christ because we are not perfect, is a blessing of grace from God.



redrgade opinion: The Spirit teaches us daily things we haven't learned. Thus God uses the word "ignorant" - we still don't know it all. We are "disciples". We are learning.


The Spirit is here to help and guide us. God offers His love and protection from harmful doers, and Christ opened the veil to life with God in His Kingdom. ( igornance is a choice ) in the path of life here on earth that God would rather we not take.

God created the cherub, Satan: he was created perfect in every way, until his own "PRIDE" of being perfect in beauty and wisdom was found in him. God created this perfect cherub out of love, and allowed him greatness.
Sorry but that does not make any sense!!
If "Satan" was created perfect, how could he develop into a non-perfect being?
Pride not being part of a perfect being, where did that pride develop from?


God created Adam and Eve.. You know what followed.. Is is so hard to believe that satan, with all his pride, wants to deserve the world and attempt to gain out of his pride those who will follow him?
Why is it so difficult for you to explain why a perfect Satan and people created in God's image - so also perfect - all developed non-perfect treats? I repeat : where was that non-perfection coming from?

There is only one possible explanation : perfection does not exist. Not even for a deity - should such an entity exist.

:rolleyes:

·

Perfect image ?.... No way, I don't know who told you that or where you read that?
If one is made in the image of a perfect being by that same perfect being, the resulting copy has to be perfect too...
A perfect being can not even create non-perfect items, as that would make it itself imperfect.

:rolleyes:

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If one is made in the image of a perfect being by that same perfect being, the resulting copy has to be perfect too ....
A perfect being can not even create non-perfect items, as that would make it itself imperfect.

:rolleyes:

·


You did not read post #45 .. This is speaking of people.. They are not made in the perfect image of God... No way..

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This means His [own] because all souls belong to God, so God made each of us as He wanted us to be.

where did that pride develop from?

From perfection.. think about it.. That is the existence of satan today. The desire to be god? to take over? satan' wisdom as good as great?

I will repeat people were not made perfect..



There is only one possible explanation : perfection does not exist. Not even for a deity - should such an entity exist.

No I don't believe that..How is perfection defined? In beauty, In wisdom? That is what satan owns. I believe The Father in Heaven is all in perfection. In heart, In mercy, In judgement, In all.

Incorrect : I did read that post.
I also saw that you added : "This to me means His [own] because all souls belong to God, so God made each of us as He wanted us to be."
That may mean that to you, but is it that way? It makes the entire claim debateble to say the least ...


"Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."



I offered the thought because of a different scripture which God said He created a son in His own likeness. And also because of the scripture Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
To me God created us and loves us, so He would create what pleasures Him. I don't intend to do more then plant a seed of truth. And of course that seed can fall where ever it may.. It's irrelevant to my belief, as is your's to mine



As I stated : anything created by a perfect being (perfect as in "having no faults or bad sides") as a copy in his image has to be perfect too.

===
And let me repeat : Everything created by a perfect being (perfect as in "having no faults or bad sides") has to be perfect too. Humans and satans and anything else. A perfect being can not create bad things unless it is itself not perfect.

:rolleyes:

·

Well maybe in a perfect world.. It's scripture being God' Word which has the final say, and as you can see the Word says differently.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

CRED;


"Perfection" in this case means sinless or without sin.

What is sin? Breaking the law or lawlessness. The law in simplest form and most fundamentally expressed as the 10 Commandments.

God is perfect, that is without sin [, and so was Jesus Christ].

Adam and Eve, Satan / Lucifer were made perfect.

God gave them and I and us free will. We are allowed to make our own choices, we are not mere marionettes, are every move controlled directly by God.

Adam and Eve freely chose, to sin or rebel against God's instruction. Thus sin entered the world, and they and I and we are not perfect because we sin.

This is my belief. :)

Inthebox, can anyone say they've never broken one of the commandments? If we are supposed to follow Gods rules then we are supposed to obey the ten commandments right?

I've lied, not well, but I have.
I've said the name of the Lord in vain.

Churches make idols, that's against the ten commandments.

Can you perhaps see why I don't follow the bible and don't go to church?

One commandment I won't ever break, I will never covet my neighbors wife, just don't swing that way. ;)

Altenweg:

I've broken them all. [ 1 john 3 ;15 :eek: ]

And I did not have to swing that way. ;)

That is why a I agree with :

Romans 7

And

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/our-we-foolish-ignorant-245179.html#post1193507

I've broken them all. [ 1 john 3 ;15 ]

Even number 6?:eek:

1 John 3:
15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer

Guilty as charged :(

Oh, okay, I'm was going with the one I grew up with, thou shalt not kill.

Don't be so hard on yourself, you are human, and as such you will make mistakes. To err is human... :)

Well maybe in a perfect world.
In that case it is god's fault that the world in imperfect. Accordingly to your beliefs it is god who - although being a perfect being - created that imperfect world.
Logical conclusion : an entity that creates unperfection is unperfect itself, as a perfect entity can only create perfection.


"Perfection" in this case means sinless or without sin.
That is YOUR interpretation. Perfect means being without faults. That we have to interpret "god's word" also points at god being unperfect...

:rolleyes:

·

In that case it is god's fault that the world in imperfect. Accordingly to your beliefs it is god who - although being a perfect being - created that imperfect world.
Logical conclusion : an entity that creates unperfection is unperfect itself, as a perfect entity can only create perfection.


That is YOUR interpretation. Perfect means being without faults. That we have to interpret "god's word" also points at god being unperfect ...

:rolleyes:

·

In the attempt to point out the importance of choice and our daily pattern we have gone back to the beginning and found perfection created, yet no thankfulness received. Instead satan, as the first at taking that perfection, and turning into correption by choice. Why correption? it was a choice. Why not a perfect Zombies? That was God's choice in wanting to create us for His pleasure. I believe God wants His children to love Him and have the choices in life to love others as well. God gives choice in loving Him rather then making a Zombie that has no choice in love or evil. No choice in sin or righteousness.

I think we got a better deal then what you are willing to admit. And one day in heaven there will be the perfect world that was by ownership of your own choice, and not as a Zombie.

Now is that Perfect..

You keep talking in circles, but keep missing the essential point here :

Such is life the continued circle. The pattern of choice.



Accordingly to your belief everything was created by a perfect being.


Correct, God is perfect, Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.



And perfect beings can only make perfect creations, as if they make imperfect creations, they are not perfect.


Each are created perfect, it is by choice which enters in to cause the imperfect.



And also lacking thanksfulness is an imperfection.

Choice to not be thankful..



Now without your personal interpretations please explain the existence of badness, of lacking thanksfulness, of the devil, etc. : all imperfections created by a claimed perfect entity !


okay no personal interpretation.. satan' choice

Eze 28:16-18 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted [/U]because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

What appears to be evident, is that your interpretation of perfection is that God should have created Zombies or some type of puppet.. Without choice in going left or right itself ?
Where I truly believe, God created the perfect solution by giving us choice in this earth age, to be or not to be of the age of eternity in heaven.

~ God is patient

Ecc 7:8 Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.

Such is life the continued circle. The pattern of choice
I note that you once more try to skip the essence of what I stated : perfection is just a religious claim. No OSE exists that 100% perfection is a valid claim.


Correct, God is perfect
In that case you can surely provide me with OSE for that religious claim, so I ask myself why you so desperately try to evade that point...


Each are created perfect, it is by choice which enters in to cause the imperfect.
Anything that is created perfectly has no choice, other than be perfect. If the choice exist to be(come) imperfect, it was never perfect in the first place.

:rolleyes:

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If I was created perfectly then where did I go wrong? I want my money back! ;)

Sndbay, I see that you feel very strongly about your beliefs, and that's good, but nothing that you've stated so far is proof of what you claim. You cannot prove God through scriptures, because the bible has never been proven to actually be the "word of God". Yes, it's an interesting read, yes there are some great stories, but fact? Really? I don't think so.

The problem we have on this thread is that you are dealing with everyone on this site when you post on the Religious Discussion board. Not everyone has the same beliefs as you, so claiming that your beliefs are fact because of the bible, well, that's not going to work for allot of us.

Cred has a point, if we were created by God and he created us in his image, then wouldn't we be perfect, without sin, without struggle? Something to think about.

Personally, I think that God was bored, and we're his entertainment. I'm kidding everyone, but it's an interesting thought. ;):)

Posted Topic

It's ownership by your own decision.. You decided what you do.. You decided what you believe..

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.




So either God is perfect and everyone was therefore created perfect, or ...
God is not perfect, which explains why humans are not perfect (well : at least if they were created by God).


It's ownership of your own decision... You decided what you do.. You decided what you believe... which explains why humans are not perfect

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

With all respect : that is what you BELIEVE and as argument it has no validity.
One does not just decide about such things. One does not just decide what to believe or not to believe.
Your subconcious has a great influence in such matters. It controls most of your feelings. It has great influence on one's views. That is why nobody just suddenly changes world view and start, change, or end religious belief. Time is the master of such changes.
Nobody just decides what he/she believes.

:rolleyes:

·

Thank you for allowing me what I believe...

As for the validity... Yes, you acknowledged how my choice and ownshiper to what I believe does indeed put forth a result known as Faith.

Power of suggestion has influence matters of this world for years. Agree. But also witnesses to a belief does count, as do witness to all world affairs count. Followed by that same choice to believe or not believe.

So I don't believe, NObody just decides what is or isn't.. I believe witness to Truth does plays the influence of what we choose. And that is why I hold the bible as that witness and example. A history of witness that has been in existence for years.

Thank you for allowing me what I believe.
If you mean with that "allowing you to believe" : I have ALWAYS stated that people should be allowed to believe whatever they prefer. So nothing new.


So I don't believe, NObody just decides what is or isn't..
There are always exceptions to every rule of hand.
But in general what I stated is correct.

:rolleyes:

.

Sndbay, my problem is that you believe only because of the bible. Yes I know you're beliefs, that the bible was written by the Holy spirit, but there is no proof of that. There is however proof that the book was written by men, men who claim that the stories are true.

Maybe the stories are correct, but they are too farfetched, in my opinion, to be truth.

My question to you, would you still believe if there was no bible, only stories passed on generation to generation by word of mouth?

What of churches and the fallible men who preach there? They too are filled with the Holy Spirit according to you. Well, why do some of these men molest children, have affairs (which is against the rules of the Catholic church) and commit other sins? If they are filled with the Holy Spirit then they should be without sin, but some of the sins they commit are not only against the church but against the laws of humanity and morality.

I do agree that you have a right to your faith, I just think that what you base your faith on is shaky at best.

Once again, I do believe in God, but not the God of the bible, not the God preached about in church. Those are mens words and mens beliefs, therefore they must be taken with a grain of salt.

I mean no disrespect, still trying to understand why you hold so much validity in the bible.

Sndbay, my problem is that you believe only because of the bible. Yes I know youre beliefs, that the bible was written by the Holy spirit, but there is no proof of that. There is however proof that the book was written by men, men who claim that the stories are true. .

Those same men told of the inspiration of their written work.
And were in the presence of Jesus enough to say they were witness to His Truth.
What is called legel-historical proof ? What is based on showing that something is fact beyond a reasonable doubt. Verdict is reached by weight of evidence. This depends on three types of testimony: oral, written, and exhibits.
As for scientific method; used method to prove repeatable things. It is not adequate for proving or disproving questions on history event. Did George Washington live? Was Jesus Christ raised from the dead? This is out of the realm of scientific proof, and are understandingly put in the legal realm.

First Note: Commandment "To Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind" Problem is some people seem to stop with their heart, and facts don't reach their mind. The mind is innovated by the Holy Spirit to know God, as well as the heart to love Him. The heart and mind are created to work in harmony together.



Maybe the stories are correct, but they are too farfetched, in my opinion, to be truth.

My question to you, would you still believe if there was no bible, only stories passed on generation to generation by word of mouth?

Yes I trust I would still believe in the existence of what is, because as I have said, it is evident. You might say you are an example of that in your own decision. But I do trust more in what scripture offers, and believe I am less likely to fall under man's authority verse God's. God had a good reason for bringing what is written through The Holy Spirit. Many manuscript which document as well to name just a few. History of Thucydides 460-400 BC available and written, MSS of history of Herodotus a likewise scarce. Aristotle wrote his poetics 343 BC. Caesar composed his history btween 58-50 BC. So when it comes to the manuscript authority which does refer New Testament, the abundane of material is almost embarrassing in contrast.



What of churches and the fallible men who preach there? They too are filled with the Holy Spirit according to you. Well, why do some of these men molest children, have affairs (which is against the rules of the Catholic church) and commit other sins? If they are filled with the Holy Spirit then they should be without sin, but some of the sins they commit are not only against the church but against the laws of humanity and morality.

Understand, that I do not disagree with what is wrong and sinful in this world. But it takes my heart and mind to refer scripture that tells us to beware. Why? Again goes back to free choice that was given to us. And the deception that comes in to either following light or darkness. Light is the law that balances these choices, if you choose to do so. I find Truth in the bible, and I am aware of what is taking place in churches that say they are of God in name sake, and are not. Scripture warns us of these false teachers, that ask you to follow their authority. I am thankful that scripture written has told us this. And Jesus Himself has fore told you this in II Thessalonians... There is a posting on the Christian forum example the scripture.

The Holy Spirit is present when? 1 Corintians 2: 9-16 But as it has been written, Eye saw not, and ear heard not, and went not upon the heart of man, the things which God... had prepared for them that love him. But God revealed [them] unto us through his Spirit: for The Holy Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things also of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, except The Holy Spirit of God. Now we... have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit [new nature]which is of God; in order that we might know the things that are freely given [as a act of grace] to us of God. Which things we speak also, not in the words taught by man's wisdom, but in things taught by The Holy Ghost; interpreting, to fit the meaning to the words, spiritual things to spiritual men. But the natural man receiveth not the things of The Holy Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual discerned all things, yet he himself is discerned of no man. For who knew the mind of the Lord, who shall instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.



Once again, I do believe in God, but not the God of the bible, not the God preached about in church. Those are mens words and mens beliefs, therefore they must be taken with a grain of salt.

I mean no disrespect, still trying to understand why you hold so much validity in the bible.

God invites you and all to open their hearts and minds to His love. His promise is there. The light is there. It is your free choice in decision to follow, and allow God to lead you through The Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1 Timothy 4: 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Tell me.. Do you believe the miracles of the disciples were done, and who actually did those miracles?

To Altenweg : "Tell me.. Do you believe the miracles of the disciples were done, and who actually did those miracles?"
Why would she believe that ? She is not a Christian. She is a Deist.

:rolleyes:

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Why would she believe that ? She is not a Christian. She is a Deist.

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#1 Because she has a right to her own choice (and) reply

# 2 Because of legel-historical proof.

#3 Evidence: oral, written, and exhibits.

#1 Because she has a right to her own choice (and) reply

Fine, you want me to tell you, I'm a Deist.


# 2 Because of legel-historical proof.

What do you mean by legel?


#3 Evidence: oral, written, and exhibits.

Oral the teachings in Church, nope, don't believe in that. Written, the bible, don't believe in that either, exhibits, which ones?

Sndbay, we aren't to agree, that's clear, you are trying to convince me using the bible, church, two things I will not allow in to my life, because to me they aren't valid and not proof of God's existence.

Thread closed, and a large percert of thread deleted, personal attacks, off thread discussion and repeating and repeating thierself again and agine with similar posts with the same comment of believing.