Hello,

I'm putting in 2 new bathrooms which will be stacked. Each bathroom will have a tub/shower unit, toilet and sink. I plan on running a 3" stack that will connect into clay sewer drain in crawl space and run all the way up to attic space. Each toilet will connect into this 3" stack with 3" pipe as well.

Is it ok if I connect the shower/tub with 2" pipe to the toilet run and then connect the sink with 1 1/2" pipe to the shower/tub run?

Can I connect the sink directly to the toilet run and the shower/tub directly to the toilet run instead if I like?

Can tee's be used on both horizontal and vertical drain lines as long as they are not on their back?

Wye's can be used on both drain and vent lines in any position correct?

I plan on running a separate vent (1 1/2" pipe) from both the 1st floor sink and shower/tub unit up to the 2nd floor and teeing in the 2nd floor shower/tub and sink (above flood rim) and continuing the 2 vents into attic space and connecting to main stack, is this called "dry venting" and is it OK?

Finally, would a 2" vent through the roof be sufficient or would I need to go to 3"?


Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Oops.. forgot to ask is a 3" main stack ok or would it need to be 4"? Thanks!

According to our Plumbing Code, none of what you described would be correct in So.California. I'll let other plumbers in this forum to lead you through this.

Hi Steve:

As Milo has pointed out... plumbing codes vary by state so you really need to check with your local plumbing inspector to see what code is being used in your area and if what I present below can be used in your area... ok? I am using Massachusetts Uniform State Plumbing Code, '93.

First, you will need a REDUCING FERNCO COUPLING (see 1st picture) to transition from the clay pipe in the crawl space to the 3" PVC (or ABS) pipe for this installation.

You want to install a 3" dandy cleanout (see 2nd picture) just after you come off the clay pipe, preferably at or near the base of the 3" waste stack so you can snake the drain (up or down) if needed in future.

TEES cannot be used on horizontal drain lines except as a vent connection (unless wet venting which I will explain in a minute). Tees can be used on vertical drain pipes to stub out for a fixture (tub, toilet, sink, etc.).

WYES can be used almost anywhere except to stub out for sinks (if use a wye and 45 degree fitting it lowers the vent/ptrap relationship and it actually negates the vent).

Now...lets name each bathroom you are piping as BATH1 (lower floor) and BATH2 (upstairs bath)..ok??

At Bath1 you will EITHER be required to install an individual vent to each fixture as follows: Toilet gets 2" vent, lavatory gets 1.5" vent and tub/shower unit gets 1.5" vent OR you may be able to WET VENT bath1 using a 2" (increased here) sink vent to vent the toilet, tub and the sink itself (see picture below).

The picture below is inaccurate in that it does not show the WYE fittings required for horizontal piping, so be sure to install WYE fittings off the 3" toilet pipe to pick up the 2" sink and tub drain... The 2" horizontal waste pipe picks up the sink and tub (tub reduces to 1.5" @ ptrap) and here the 2" sink vent must continue up to next bathroom and can connect there at least 6 inches above flood level rim of the sink in that bathroom... not back into the waste stack as in the picture below because you have a bathroom above this... ;)

But I think you knew that by your description! Anyway, remember that I just presented an oversimplified description of WET VENTING a bathroom... it may or may not be acceptable in your area and you need to check with your local plumbing inspector.. ok?

Now, at Bath2 you should be able to STACK VENT the bathroom. Here, the tub connects into the stack BELOW the toilet using a special side inlet fitting OR can also install a 3"x1.5" tee fitting below the tee fitting to pick up the toilet. Then install 3" tee fitting to pick up toilet, and finally install a 3" tee fitting to pick up toilet, and finally install a 3" tee above the floor and run the waste line to sink so it ends at about 17-18" off finish floor (the sink itself should be within 5 feet of the stack). No individual vents required... ;)

So... discuss WET VENTING Bath1 and STACK VENTING Bath2 (on top floor) with local inspector and see what he thinks... ok? Let us know what he says, please! Also, let us know what version of code you guys use in your area... always interesting to see what others are doing across the country!

Finally, the 1.5" vent for the kitchen sink is correct and I think you will need a 3" vent to penetrate the roof for these bathrooms. In my area we stub above roof 18" tee above the floor and run the waste line to sink so it ends at about 17-18" (lots of snow here). In Milo's area it is 12"-24" (I think)... just proving that codes vary quite a bit by region!

Check your codes.. let us know what you think... chat soon... MARK

.

Thanks Mark, I appreciate your helpful reply.

Can I use a donut or an "any bore" to connect the 3" PVC to the INSIDE of the clay pipe as far as being allowed by code? The bell is broken off of this clay pipe partially and I do not wish to try and cut it off completely to put the fernco coupling on (afraid of cracking further).

The clay pipe is also laying horizontally (sloped of course), so is there a problem with code allowing me to use this type of fitting in a non-vertical application?

I was going to stick the 3" PVC in the clay pipe about a foot or so from the end and seal with the donut or any bore and then come out with (2) 45's or a 90 to get vertical and then go to a tee as you suggested for cleanout and then to (2) more 45's and then to 3" stack. Is this too many bends?

I have to use the last (2) 45's to offset the stack into the wall (stack will come out of crawl space and immediately 45 into wall at sill plate).


Regarding bathroom group 1, the toilet will be about 9 - 10 feet from stack, any problem with this?


Can the 3" x 2" WYE be located anywhere on this 3" toilet run to pickup sink and then shower/tub (such as middle of the run)?


And lastly, can local towns have there own specific plumbing codes or does every town have to follow 1 of the 3 plumbing codes (I think there is 3 right?)?

Thanks again for your advice!





Hi Steve:

As Milo has pointed out...plumbing codes vary by state so you really need to check with your local plumbing inspector to see what code is being used in your area and if what I present below can be used in your area...ok?? I am using Massachusetts Uniform State Plumbing Code, '93.

First, you will need a REDUCING FERNCO COUPLING (see 1st picture) to transition from the clay pipe in the crawl space to the 3" PVC (or ABS) pipe for this installation.

You want to install a 3" dandy cleanout (see 2nd picture) just after you come off the clay pipe, preferably at or near the base of the 3" waste stack so you can snake the drain (up or down) if needed in future.

TEES cannot be used on horizontal drain lines except as a vent connection (unless wet venting which I will explain in a minute). Tees can be used on vertical drain pipes to stub out for a fixture (tub, toilet, sink, etc.).

WYES can be used almost anywhere except to stub out for sinks (if use a wye and 45 degree fitting it lowers the vent/ptrap relationship and it actually negates the vent).

Now...lets name each bathroom you are piping as BATH1 (lower floor) and BATH2 (upstairs bath)..ok??

At Bath1 you will EITHER be required to install an individual vent to each fixture as follows: Toilet gets 2" vent, lavatory gets 1.5" vent and tub/shower unit gets 1.5" vent OR you may be able to WET VENT bath1 using a 2" (increased here) sink vent to vent the toilet, tub and the sink itself (see picture below).

The picture below is inaccurate in that it does not show the WYE fittings required for horizontal piping, so be sure to install WYE fittings off the 3" toilet pipe to pick up the 2" sink and tub drain...The 2" horizontal waste pipe picks up the sink and tub (tub reduces to 1.5" @ ptrap) and here the 2" sink vent must continue up to next bathroom and can connect there at least 6 inches above flood level rim of the sink in that bathroom.....not back into the waste stack as in the picture below because you have a bathroom above this...;)

But I think you knew that by your description!! Anyway, remember that I just presented an oversimplified description of WET VENTING a bathroom...it may or may not be acceptable in your area and you need to check with your local plumbing inspector..ok??

Now, at Bath2 you should be able to STACK VENT the bathroom. Here, the the tub connects into the stack BELOW the toilet using a special side inlet fitting OR can also install a 3"x1.5" tee fitting below the tee fitting to pick up the toilet. Then install 3" tee fitting to pick up toilet, and finally install a 3"x1.5" tee above the floor and run the waste line to sink so it ends at about 17-18" off finish floor (the sink itself should be within 5 feet of the stack). No individual vents required...;)

So....discuss WET VENTING Bath1 and STACK VENTING Bath2 (on top floor) with local inspector and see what he thinks...ok?? Let us know what he says, please!! Also, let us know what version of code you guys use in your area...always interesting to see what others are doing across the country!

Finally, the 1.5" vent for the kitchen sink is correct and I think you will need a 3" vent to penetrate the roof for these bathrooms. In my area we stub above roof 18"-24" (lots of snow here). In Milo's area it is 12" (I think), and in Tom's area (Florida) it is 6" (I think).....just proving that codes vary quite a bit by region!!

Check your codes..let us know what you think....chat soon...MARK

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You should cut the clay pipe. This is a sewer pipe and connection is very important. If the pipe is old and fragile, use 4" diamond blade. It will cut through clay as through butter. Use Flex Seal couplings to connect PVC transitional fitting.

Hi Steve...

As a plumber, I would be required to cut the clay pipe (diamond saw) or I would be required to go back to the next piece of clay pipe that is in good shape...

I cannot just stick the pipe inside the pipe as the lip of the pipe would eventually catch stuff and would probably cause the pipe to back up sooner than later.. ;)

Here, if say a 6" clay pipe...then a 6"x4" fernco will be the way to go as the inside of 6" clay is approximately equal to inside of 4" pvc pipe... ok?

Stick with the 45s off the clay... use 2-45s to make a 90 then clean out then 45s as needed!

9-10 feet off the stack for Bath1 is fine, if wet venting is allowed. The 3"x2" wye can be used in the middle of run but should not connect further than 8 feet from the toilet elbow.

Let us know if need more...

MARK

Oops.. forgot to ask is a 3" main stack ok or would it need to be 4"? Thanks!
Our code mandates that one three inch vent be installed on every single family dwelling. As a rule we take this vent off the kitchen since changes in our code require us to run kitchen drainage at a minimum of three inches. This is due to the additional garbage produced by the disposal.
Good luck, Tom

Finally got the clay pipe cut off with the suggestions from Milo and Massplumber to use a diamond blade on my angle grinder. I ended up making 2 trips to Lowe's to get the right blade (purchased wrong size first time). Yep it cut it off like butter, I took my time though to make sure I didn't mess it up, but I got the fernco on :) Now here my new questions...


Could I start the 4" fernco end with a pvc reducing bushing (4" x 3") then a street 45, street 90, cleanout tee, sanitary tee (for 1st floor toilet, etc), 45, 45, then soil/vent stack?

I know it's alot of bends, but I am faced with a very tight space and I cannot think of anything else that would work.

Would there be any code violations in this setup such as usng the reducing bushing in the fernco?

Also, I forgot that I will have a gas fired tankless water heater mounted in my 1st floor bath closet. This unit will have a condensate drain. Should/could I install a laundry standpipe in the closet for this limited amount of water? Would there need to be another vent for this? Where would this pipe into my 1st floor bathroom group at if I am using the following setup:

3" from stack to toilet, 2" off toilet run to sink, 2" off sink run to shower/tub, 2" vent off sink stub out to attic and vented into main stack

Thanks again!

Hi Steve.. good for you!

If possible, don't reduce right out of the end of the pipe in this case. Here, you want to install a 4"x3"wye fitting and install a 4" end cleanout in the end of the 4" end cleanout in the end of the 4" wye and then a 3" street 45 degree fitting into the 3" branch of the 4" wye and then a 3" wye fitting. Then if can fit it, you want the 3" dandy cleanout installed next in line and then fittings as required to accomplish job!

That is how my code book says it needs to be done, so yes code disagrees with reducing drain line right out of the fernco without full size end cleanout for future snaking of drain (and since older clay pipe more cleanouts are better... just in case... ;) ).

The tankless water heater drain can come off the 3" vertical stack as long as have a 1.5" branch of the 4" vent for the drain (kinda like a sink).

The rest sounds good!

Let us know what you think... Mark

Hi Mark,

Thanks again for your reply. Unfortunately I do not have the space to fit the wye in right out of the fernco. The clay pipe sticks out horizontally right at the corner of the crawl space foundation, with the end facing the walls. I have just enough room to get that 3" street 45 and 90 in to get the pipe going vertically.

Is there anything else I could do that you can think of? I took a picture of the pipe with my camera phone today, but my phone won't let me upload it the computer :mad:

If there is room (a big if), would it be allowed to add a 4" street 45 and 4" street 90 directly in the fernco, then add a 4" cleanout tee with a reducing bushing at the top of cleanout taking it down to 3", then my sanitary tee and (2) 45's?

Thanks again!







Hi Steve..good for you!!

If possible, don't reduce right out of the end of the pipe in this case. Here, you want to install a 4"x3"wye fitting and install a 4" end cleanout in the end of the 4"x3" wye and then a 3" street 45 degree fitting into the 3" branch of the 4"x3" wye fitting. Then if can fit it, you want the 3" dandy cleanout installed next in line and then fittings as required to accomplish job!!

That is how my code book says it needs to be done, so yes code disagrees with reducing drain line right out of the fernco without full size end cleanout for future snaking of drain (and since older clay pipe more cleanouts are better...just in case...;) ).

The tankless water heater drain can come off the 3" vertical stack as long as have a 1.5" ptrap and a separate 1.5" vent for the drain (kinda like a sink).

The rest sounds good!!

Let us know what you think...Mark

You should really post a photo for better visual... crawl spaces are usually at least 16" tall which should be just enough space for 4" combination Y.
You can also come out of your clay pipe with horizontal Y, then 45 also installed horizontally, than go from horizontal to vertical with large sweep combination Y.

That condensation line from your tankless w/h can be connected to washer stand pipe, or lead it to the outside.

It is not a good practice to have 135 degree bend in toilet line...

Go my camera to work, but the picture is very bad. If you can see the picture, the stack I need to connect to is offset a little, so that is why I needed the 90 and 45.


http://home.comcast.net/~sk77/pipe.jpg

Hey Steve:

Picture helped a lot! I can see why a WYE fitting (or combo. Fitting) won't work here... ;)

In this case, I would have you install a 4" long sweep elbow (I would use 2 - street 45s glued together and then slip street end into the fernco) to come out of ground (brings horizontal pipe to vertical) then install the 4" cleanout, then install 4"x3" flush bushing (save a little more space) into cleanout, and then install 2 - 3" 45 degree fittings to OFFSET the pipe so it lines up with the vertical stack!!

Also note here, Steve that they make 3" and 4" 22.5 degree fittings that may help you to align things so things are squared up better (if underground line coming out of ground at odd angle, for example).

Good luck with it.. let us know how you make out!

Good day... MARK

Thanks for the photo...

It looks like you could cut that existing drain closer to the foundation. Can you ?
But in any case, you seem to have lots of room between drain and stack. Follow Mark's suggestion

If I was in this situation, I would insert Long Sweep Street 90 to the existing sewer, street end first. Then Bushing. Then, glue street 45 into your stack. Now, all you have left is to connect those two with on more regular 45. This 45 will fit somewhere in between those two.

Also, Home Depot sells 3" - 60 degree bends. I think they are made for this situation.

Ok... I'm back. I talked to my local inspector and he said my area follows the UCC 2006 plumbing code. With that being said, I have attached a picture of my 1st floor plumbing layout I would like to use. This was just dry fit and I do not have the slope properly set yet, but would the way I have this connected work as far as code?

Also, I forgot to check to make sure my clearances for my bathroom were code acceptable as well (stupidity on my part). What are clearances required by code for things like toilet space width, space in front of rim, bathroom door width size, etc?

I'm not sure on everything that is checked, but I do know my toilet space width is 29 1/2" wide (wall to wall) and my bathroom door width is 30".


Is there a minimum length of 3" vent pipe that is needed to stick out of the roof?


Thanks again for your help.

http://home.comcast.net/~sk77/pipe2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~sk77/pipe3.jpg

Steve... everything looks great! Nice job!

Minimum space for a toilet is 30" (I think inspector will let 291/2" slide... but it's close! )

30 inch door is fine (unless requiring handicap accessibility and then everything would have different requirements altogether... ;)... so hopefully, not the case here).

Vent out the roof depends on where you live. In my area we need to pipe the vent so it is between 18 and 24" (Massachusetts = snow), In Milo's area it is 12" (if I remember correctly) and in Tom's area it is 6" (Florida)... so need to check this requirement with local inspector.

Just be sure to put a STRAP HANGER every 4 feet with 1/4" pitch per foot piping and you should be all set here.

YOU did check to be sure that WET VENTING is allowed in your area...yes?? Confirm this please??

Again, great job! Keep us posted as you go.

MARK

Hello Mark,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, inspector says wet venting is allowed with 2" vent. I will check with him on the distance of vent through roof. Thanks again for all your help, I will keep you posted.

- Steve



Steve...everything looks great!! Nice job!!

Minimum space for a toilet is 30" (I think inspector will let 291/2" slide...but it's close!!)

30 inch door is fine (unless requiring handicap accessibility and then everything would have different requirements altogether...;)...so hopefully, not the case here).

Vent out the roof depends on where you live. In my area we need to stick it oit between 18 and 24" (Massachusetts = snow), In Milo's area it is 12" (if I remember correctly) and in Tom's area it is 6" (Florida)...so need to check this requirement with local inspector.

Just be sure to put a STRAP HANGER every 4 feet with 1/4" pitch per foot piping and you should be all set here.

YOU did check to be sure that WET VENTING is allowed in your area...yes?? Confirm this please???

Again, great job!! Keep us posted as you go.

MARK

Oh, yes, that 60 degree bend - who would ever thought it will fit in so well..! And how about those street 45? :-)

Good job..

Yes, yes, yes... I thank you very much as well. Those fittings did fit nice :)

I was planning on connecting the laundry standpipe (for tankless waterheater) directly to the 3" stack with it's own vent, but would I be allowed to connect it via 3" x 2" WYE between the toilet and the fitting marked "To Toilet" in this picture?

If so, would I still need a separate vent for this standpipe?


http://home.comcast.net/~sk77/pipe2.jpg






Oh, yes, that 60 degree bend - who would ever thought it will fit in so well... !? And how about those street 45 ?! :-)

Good job... !

Hi Steve:

NOPE... sorry, adding washing machine anywhere on the toilet drain line is a No-NO when it comes to WET VENTING... OK?

You would be better to cut a 3"x2" wye into the vertical stack above the toilet sanitary TY fitting and then running pipe over to where it needs to go... again hanging every 4 feet with 1/4" pitch per foot of piping. You would also install a 2" cleanout like you have installed at the 4" drain line and then reduce the tankless heater drain line to 1.5"... add P-TRAP, and I am afraid, an individual 1.5" vent is needed, too.

You may also be required to add a TRAP PRIMER to this installation... depending on how often condensation/discharge from the tankless heater occurs... BUT, as I always seem to say to people... You need to check with your plumbing inspector to see if you need to do this... ok?

A trap primer is simple device that spills about a tablespoon of water into the p-trap every time a fixture it is hooked to is operated (usually hooked to a sink water line and then copper pipe is usually run over to the trap (pipe must pitch for water to fall via gravity to p-trap). This will prevent the p-trap from ever drying out and allowing sewer gas to flood the house/basement, etc.

Never easy huh Steve... ;)

Check into the trap primer... let us know if need more.

MARK

Geez.. Is that I all I have to do :p Would I be allowed to run a 3/4" pvc drain line (like used in HVAC) from the closet to a floor drain in basement?

Also, I am having a air handler installed in our attic for our 2nd floor heating/AC, I was told by the HVAC company that I could run a 3/4" PVC drain line through attic, down 2nd floor and 1st floor walls (closet space) and drain into floor drain in basement, would this be allowed?





Hi Steve:

NOPE...sorry, adding washing machine anywhere on the toilet drain line is a No-NO when it comes to WET VENTING...OK?

You would be better to cut a 3"x2" wye into the vertical stack above the toilet sanitary TY fitting and then running pipe over to where it needs to go...again hanging every 4 feet with 1/4" pitch per foot of piping. You would also install a 2" cleanout like you have installed at the 4" drain line and then reduce the tankless heater drain line to 1.5"....add P-TRAP, and I am afraid, an individual 1.5" vent is needed, too.

You may also be required to add a TRAP PRIMER to this installation...depending on how often condensation/discharge from the tankless heater occurs.............BUT, as I always seem to say to people.........You need to check with your plumbing inspector to see if you need to do this...ok??

A trap primer is simple device that spills about a tablespoon of water into the p-trap every time a fixture it is hooked to is operated (usually hooked to a sink water line and then copper pipe is usually run over to the trap (pipe must pitch for water to fall via gravity to p-trap). This will prevent the p-trap from ever drying out and allowing sewer gas to flood the house/basement, etc.

Never easy huh Steve...;)

Check into the trap primer....let us know if need more.

MARK

YUP! All allowed...

In some states that floor drain won't require a vent. In most, it will require the vent.

My state would want a trap primer in this circumstance as well... ;)

Let us know what happens will you?

MARK

Uh oh... Ran into an issue today :( It appears the path I originally choose to run the vent from the 1st floor sink is not going to work (I'd have to cutout 2 1/2" of a 4" header in a loading bearing wall). I should have realized this at first, but I didn't.

Are you allowed to run the vent for the 1st floor bathroom group from a connection under the floor such as via a WYE on horizontal run of the sink drain line?

If no connection under the floor is allowed, is there a limit on the # of 90's that can be used on the vent lines?

Also, do I have to use a long sweep 90 when connecting to toilet flange or a regular 90 is fine?

Are there requirements by code as far a distances you have to stub out the drain and supply lines from walls or floors? Or toilet supply stubout?

Is there a required # shut off valves needed (not talking about the chrome ones under sinks or toilet tanks)?

I was only putting a shutoff valve before/after meter and on tankless water heater. My house I live in now has shutoff's in the basement everywhere (most leak too), they have ones to shutoff the water to the 2nd floor, ones to shutoff the water right before shower faucet. etc..

And lastly, I understand you have to support horizontal lines every 4 feet, but are vertical lines required to have any clamps or supports?

Thank you all once again, hopefully I'll get this right soon!


P.S. Inspector says I'm allowed to use AAV on laundry standpipe and vent pipe must extend out roof 12" (minimum) to 16" from lowest side of roof which you are going through.

Steve.. I'm off to fly remote control airplanes with my kid... I'll be back around 9:00 or so. Check back then for my reply.. ok?

Talk soon... MARK

No problem at all Mark, I appreciate the help. I have a remote control helicopter, sure wish I could keep it in the air for more than 2 minutes without crashing :)





Steve..I'm off to fly remote control airplanes with my kid...I'll be back around 9:00 or so. Check back then for my reply..ok??

Talk soon...MARK

Hi Steve:

Always amazes me to see a little person fly anything (kites, airplanes, helicopters... even paper airplanes).. even if only for a minute or two. We actually flew kites this weekend over 100 feet in the air... good times!

Lucky you that you get to use an AAV at the standpipe! Just be sure it is readily accessible... as per code requirement!

And sorry... NO... there is no way to run a WET VENT system from under the floor. In fact, except for an island sink installation there are no vents that are allowed to run up to fixture and then back down under floor to then run a distance and then run up the wall and connect into a vent 6 inches above flood level rim... so again, simply cannot run vent for entire bathroom from under the bathroom...:(

May be a good idea to ask inspector to drop by for a minute if he has to inspect all this anyway. If nice guy, maybe he'll pop out for fun. If super busy guy, may charge an inspection fee and then require a "reinspection fee"... but if it saves you time and labor, may be worth investigating this (reinspection fees in my area are $25.00 to $50.00).. doesn't hurt to call!

Now, there is not a LIMITED number of elbows as much as there is a LIMITED DISTANCE that a vent can run. If I remember correctly, total horizontal distance cannot exceed 1/3 overall length of total developed distance (length) of vent... here a vent with a total developed length of 30 feet should only have a 10 foot horizontal section of piping to vent. AT least that is how my code book calls it... ;)
Check with your inspector to see if he agrees.

Toilets can connect to toilet flange via regular 90 or even a street 90 if necessary.

STUBOUTs:

Toilet water is usually six inches left of center of toilet flange and 6" to 8" high off finish floor.
Toilet drain at 11.5" to 12" to center off finish wall.

Lavatory drain is usually 17-18" off finish floor.
Lavatory water is usually 20" off finish floor.

Check specification sheets of planned fixtures to be more specific...ok??

Shutoffs:

At each individual fixture as you know... then I would isolate the bathroom itself if possible (costs $30.00 now for 2 shutoffs).. if not, not required as you presented your house layout!

Finally, you should plan on supporting/strapping vertical pipes at each floor level... mostly common sense here. Don't span entire floor without some vertical support at mid pipe somehow (straps or clips work great).

Keep me posted on this...

Good night! Mark

Hello Mark,

I just wanted to thank you once again for your help and for answering my many, many questions. Hopefully I have all the information I need to finish this correctly so I can move on to the next phase. Maybe when I'm done I'll take some pictures and post them after inspection. Now if I could just get my solder joints to look good :rolleyes:

Have a good night!

- Steve

Hello Mark,

How are you? I started the copper rough in today and I was wondering, do they sell compression type straight and angle shut offs for 3/4" copper or do you always have to reduce down to 1/2" at stub out for the toilet and sinks?

Also, should I reduce down to 1/2" right before connecting to shower/tub faucet or keep it at 3/4" the whole !way?

Is there a certain distance you have to keep the copper spaced when running to the faucet? Like 8" center to center, etc?


Thanks again

- Steve

Hi Steve:

I'm great... how are you? How did you finally work out your vent issue?

Reduce the 3/4" to 1/2" at the sink and toilet... then purchase normal straight and angle compression shutoffs as needed (see pic. Below... ordered as a 5/8" OD compression by 3/8" OD compression ANGLE or STRAIGHT stop). You'll also want to pick up some 1/2" copper tubing size or 5/8" OD copper tubing size flanges to cover the holes.

After installing the shutoffs you will need to hold against yourself and tighten the packing nut as in my 3rd picture below. Just 'til nut feels snug.. ok? These leak a lot AFTER installation... so give a little TWEAK to the packing nut and you should be all set.

The tub/shower valve... if it has 3/4" inlets then feed it full size 3/4" copper tubing. Here, more volume is never a bad thing. If inlets to valve are 1/2" reduce anywhere along the line and will be fine, too!

In terms of center to center... no absolutes here unless pipes are going to be exposed then there are standards to adhere too.

For bathroom sinks I usually pipe water at 20" off finish floor, at 6 or 8" centers...

For toilets, water is generally 6" over from center of toilet flange and 6-8" off finish floor.

Flexible connectors will then allow FLEXIBILITY in connecting shutoffs to sink and toilet.

Always best to check the ROUGH in sheet for the toilets though as some toilets nowadays want water roughed as high as 10" off finish floor... so double check your installation instructions.. ok?

Hope that answered your questions... let me know when/if have more...

MARK

Hello Mark,

Regarding the vent issue, I ended up using (4) 45's to angle the vent around the header and go through to the 2nd floor bathroom. No matter which way I went with the vent, I had a choice to use (2) 90's or (4) 45's, so I went with the (4) 45's way. I was easier this way anyway :) I tied this vent into the 2nd floor sink vent about 60" from floor using upside down sanitary tee, which then runs up to attic and ties into 3" stack vent (using upside down 3 x 2 sanitary tee) that goes through roof.

Thanks again for your reply.

- Steve





Hi Steve:

I'm great...how are you? How did you finally work out your vent issue??

Reduce the 3/4" to 1/2" at the sink and toilet....then purchase normal straight and angle compression shutoffs as needed (see pic. below....ordered as a 5/8" OD compression by 3/8" OD compression ANGLE or STRAIGHT stop). You'll also want to pick up some 1/2" copper tubing size or 5/8" OD copper tubing size flanges to cover the holes.

After installing the shutoffs you will need to hold against yourself and tighten the packing nut as in my 3rd picture below. Just 'til nut feels snug..ok?? These leak alot AFTER installation...so give a little TWEAK to the packing nut and you should be all set.

The tub/shower valve...if it has 3/4" inlets then feed it full size 3/4" copper tubing. Here, more volume is never a bad thing. If inlets to valve are 1/2" reduce anywhere along the line and will be fine, too!!

In terms of center to center....no absolutes here unless pipes are going to be exposed then there are standards to adhere too.

For bathroom sinks I usually pipe water at 20" off finish floor, at 6 or 8" centers...

For toilets, water is generally 6" over from center of toilet flange and 6-8" off finish floor.

Flexible connectors will then allow FLEXIBILITY in connecting shutoffs to sink and toilet.

Always best to check the ROUGH in sheet for the toilets though as some toilets nowadays want water roughed as high as 10" off finish floor...so double check your installation instructions..ok??

Hope that answered your questions...let me know when/if have more...

MARK

Hello Mark,

I got the copper all roughed in and I was just wondering, is there a certain way to test for leaks in sections of pipe that have air trapped in them?

I do not have any valves in yet (stubouts just capped) for my sinks, showers, toilets so when I turned the water on today, the water only filled the lines to a certain point and stopped because of trapped air. Could I brush all the joints with dishsoap and look for air bubbles, will this show the smallest of leaks?

I do not want to sheetrock everything and discover leaks later on. Any suggestions?

Also, if I do discover any leaks, can I reheat the joint and apply flux and solder to reseal?

Thanks!

Hi Steve:

Good for you!

You can either test by just turning on the water on (air would leak out if leak was present, i.e. you would hear the leak and then see it as air worked its way out the leak and then water showed up, OR you could hook an air compressor to a point in the system and pump that up to 100PSI to 125 PSI.

Air pressure test guarantees that any sneaky little leaks will be found..

If you do find a leak, drain the system down and try to reheat/flux/solder. If that doesn't fix it then will need to cut out and repipe to repair it!

Let me know if have more questions...

MARK

How would I hook the compressor up to a joint?

Would I pump it up to 100 -125 PSI and if no air leak sounds are present it's good to go -or- do I hold it at that pressure for awhile and see if any pressure drops occur?






OR you could hook an air compressor to a point in the system and pump that up to 100PSI to 125 PSI.

Air pressure test guarantees that any sneaky little leaks will be found..

Good question!

Just need to cut off one of the caps and then adapt over to a test
Apparatus...

Here you will need to solder a 1/2" copper x male adapter onto any 1/2" coper pipe at any sink, for example. Then attach a 1/2" IPS black or brass tee fitting and then reduce the tee down to 1/8" (1/2"male x 1/8" female bushing) and add a 1/8" shrader valve and then reduce other part of tee down to 1/4" (1/2" male x 1/4" female bushing) and purchase a 1/4" 100-125 PSI pressure gauge.

Then connect all together and then pump the system up using an air compressor with a fill tip on it (like at a gas station).

Pump system up and hold test for 1/2hour... after that, no leaks, you will be sure of no issues in the future... promise!

A plumbing supply house will have all this stuff (bring list)... not home depot!

Check out the pictures below to see some of the ways some people set these up. The shrader valve is on right side.

I described a simple way to set up, you can do it however you want. You can also just use the water to test with if you want... but can miss a leak/loose joint sometimes so this is best way.. ok?

Let us know how you make out...



MARK

Great, thanks for the info. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks again!






Good question!!

Just need to cut off one of the caps and then adapt over to a test
apparatus...

Here you will need to solder a 1/2" copper x male adapter onto any 1/2" coper pipe at any sink, for example. Then attach a 1/2" IPS black or brass tee fitting and then reduce the tee down to 1/8" (1/2"male x 1/8" female bushing) and add a 1/8" shrader valve and then reduce other part of tee down to 1/4" (1/2" male x 1/4" female bushing) and purchase a 1/4" pressure guage.

Then connect all together and then pump the system up using an air compressor with a fill tip on it (like at a gas station).

Pump system up and hold test for 1/2hour....after that, no leaks, you will be sure of no issues in the future...prmoise!!

A plumbing supply house will have all this stuff (bring list)...not home depot!!

Check out the pictures below to see some of the ways some people set these up. The shrader valves are on right side.

Let us know how you make out...



MARK

Hi Mark,

I finally got around to pressure testing the copper. I was only able to pressurize it up to 70 PSI because I had to use a portable air tank (I do not have a 120 volt air compressor) and my tank was running low today so that's all the higher I was able to get up to. With that said, I kept it pressurized for 5 hours and it dropped 6 PSI total. I looked and listened for any leaks, but I could not see/hear any.

I do have 2 ball valves (hot/cold) that are currently not connected on the other end yet (these will supply our new kitchen lines when I get to that point), could these be leaking at 70 PSI?

Should I have any pressure drop at all?


Thanks again!




Good question!!

Just need to cut off one of the caps and then adapt over to a test
apparatus...

Here you will need to solder a 1/2" copper x male adapter onto any 1/2" coper pipe at any sink, for example. Then attach a 1/2" IPS black or brass tee fitting and then reduce the tee down to 1/8" (1/2"male x 1/8" female bushing) and add a 1/8" shrader valve and then reduce other part of tee down to 1/4" (1/2" male x 1/4" female bushing) and purchase a 1/4" 100-125 PSI pressure guage.

Then connect all together and then pump the system up using an air compressor with a fill tip on it (like at a gas station).

Pump system up and hold test for 1/2hour....after that, no leaks, you will be sure of no issues in the future...promise!!

A plumbing supply house will have all this stuff (bring list)...not home depot!!

Check out the pictures below to see some of the ways some people set these up. The shrader valve is on right side.

I described a simple way to set up, you can do it however you want. You can also just use the water to test with if you want...but can miss a leak/loose joint sometimes so this is best way..ok??

Let us know how you make out...



MARK

I kept it pressurized for 5 hours and it dropped 6 PSI total. I looked and listened for any leaks, but I could not see/hear any. Should I have any pressure drop at all? While water will not compress, even water will drop a little bit. Air compresses and a small drop is normal. If all you had is a 6 PSI drop in 5 hours with a 70 PSI head of pressure I would say you're just fine. I like to water test with air because if you hear or feel a leak you can shut the air off, bleed the system down and repair the leak. With a water test you must evacuate all the water out before you can start to repair. Air's much faster and easier. Good luck, sounds like you got it nailed. Tom