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Turtley
Mar 24, 2006, 10:42 AM
Have leased a cabin. Don't know what the service amps are but I know there are 2 15 amp br and 1 30 amp which might have gone to an electric stove. Loks like other br have been removed, poss to the baseboard heating. 11 outlets, 3 overhead lights, fridge. When I plugged in a 1500 watt space heater the fridge seemed to cycle freq. the lights dimmed but the breaker never tripped.My TV & cd player would turn on for a few minutes and shut off. The space heater seemed to power down along with the lights. Seemed to affect the entire cabin. When I told the property owners they looked at the outside wiring and said "holy bejeebas" closed it up and called an electrician. That's all I know. Could this be an open circuit, open neutral, low voltage, fire hazard, or me just trying to run too much at once? They have an electrician coming tomorrow. Could all this be an external prolem? Could it be in the box? I would appreciate any info you can give. Thx

tkrussell
Mar 24, 2006, 02:57 PM
I can only speculate, but yes, the problem can be due to all the reasons you list plus more:

Low voltage due to length of the utility service entrance conductors
Open Neutral
Loose connection in phase or neutral
Can be anywhere from the utility transfomer, the meter, and the panel.

Or any combination of the above.

The load you run is not excessive and should operate fine on a stanadrd noraml service properly installed and rated.

Living in Maine, I get to see many cabins, cottages, camps (local term used here in Maine). If your is like many I have seen, the electrical service is probably in terrible unsafe shape.

Turtley
Mar 24, 2006, 07:19 PM
Thanks for your response. What should I ask before the electrician has looked into it? Do you think this is a fire hazard? The property owners are quite anal about most things they know about. My concerns are:1) Will I be able to run a 1500w space heater/blow dryer. 2) Will they look further than outside the box? What should I suggest given the symptoms? Could it be bad breakers causing the main to absorb the whole load? If I have described this adequetly what is your gut feeling? Thx

Turtley
Mar 24, 2006, 07:22 PM
Should I just jump and run from this?

tkrussell
Mar 25, 2006, 06:39 AM
When the electrician arrives explain all the symptoms you have experienced. You should not need to suggest anything to the electrician other than explain what happens when you try to use certain appliances. Leave the troubleshooting to the pro.

He needs to check the entire system, from the connections outside where the utility lines feed the service, the meter, and the interior of breaker panel.

He may not be able to open the meter due to the utility regulations, and some utilities don't mind if an electrician opens the meter, but he will need to check the connections somehow, so he may need to contact the utility to gain permission to open the meter, but this must be done.

You certainly should be able to run a 1500 watt load with no problems at all, along with everything else in the home.

As far as you "running", you need to be careful about this since you have signed a lease. If the electrical system is in any way faulty and is not repaired today by the electrician to a point that it is perfectly safe and operational, then you may have some recourse to breaking the lease.

If I were the electrician on site, I would ask you to explain the symptoms , and then be checking each connection in the service equipment. Any loose connection can be a fire hazard, because a loose connection creates heat, which melt the insulation on the wires at that point, and can damage the surrounding materials, whether it be the metal parts or the insulating parts.

If the issue is due to voltage drop because of the long utility lines, then the owner will need to have them resolve this. This may be contributing to the problem, but I feel there is a loose connection or defective part somewhere.

Once the electrician is done, have him operate the appliances you have been having trouble with to prove that he solved the problem.

Turtley
Mar 28, 2006, 10:14 AM
Thanks again. Got an e-mail from the property owner. The "next level" electrician determined an open neutral as the problem and referred them to another guy,hopefully, who can find and repair/replace the line. At this rate we might be able to enjoy the cabin by August! They are doing their best to fix this I am sure. I have given them money but have not signed the lease yet. What is the difference between an open neutral, open circuit. What do you mean by "phase?" They have not killed the power to the cabin should this be done?

tkrussell
Mar 28, 2006, 01:10 PM
With the open neutral still there, nothing electrical should be used in the building, as an open neutral can apply 240 volts onto 120 volt devices and destroy those devices, and I have seen fires started by the catastrophic damage caused.

An open neutral means the neutral wire or connection is broken, may be intermittent at times. At those times, depending how the system is wired, 240 volts may get across any 120 volt circuit.

Phase is referring to the hot legs. Not really the correct word to use, but understandable by most people that know electrical systems.

Open circuit means just that, for example when a switch is "OFF", the circuit is opened.

As far as the lease, may not really be an issue. The owners need to have the electrical repaired to protect their investment of the building, of which they probably have insurance. If you do lease it, and occupy the building, have yourselves and possessions insured, whether the repairs are made or not.

Turtley
Mar 28, 2006, 07:55 PM
Thanks! I have asked several times if they have killed the power. The answer remains "no." I unplugged everything but the fridge when I left Last Monday. Going tomorrow to get stuff out of the fridge and hope to know more then. Our homeowners will cover what little I have stored in the cabin. I think I understand your term "phase" to possibly be an open hot? I appreciate your clarifying my basic understanding. I have one more question. With the sags in power why did the breaker not trip but my appliances shut off? Should I shut off the main in the box when I go tomorrow?

tkrussell
Mar 28, 2006, 09:23 PM
Disregard the word phase, does not mean anything except a hot leg.

The breakers did not trip because they had no reason to. If the voltage goes down to a certain percent of full voltage, the device is just going to stop operating, which has no effect on the breakers. A breaker only opens if there is an overload in current.

Turtley
Mar 29, 2006, 06:51 AM
Okay I think I am more confused than I started. Bare with me. If low voltage can be caused by too long of a run and an open neutral can cause a deregulation of power disbursement. Can these two be connected? Or are you saying there are two different issues here? The power sag seemed to be caused by increased demand. I get what you meanby low voltage not supplying enough power to run things appropriately. I also understand that an open ground can cause uneven volts on the AC. I think I may have just answered my own question? If I am still clueless please enlighten me. Thanks

Turtley
Mar 29, 2006, 09:24 PM
Spent the afternoon with the electrician at the cabin today. I now get the phase and hot legs - so simple! I also had the opportunityto pull the new neutral/ground through the tight conduit with the hot wires! The electrician was so nice to me! Ha Ha! The ground was alluminum, crumbling, and not insulated! That is what I helped him replace. Since he replaced the ground the electricity seems fine in the cabin! Who knew it could be so easy? My previous question stands. Thanks!

tkrussell
Mar 30, 2006, 03:34 AM
The actual work can be easy, learning how and why it works takes a while, with all the theory and code that is necessary. Watching and having someone point out what is what is so much easier than trying to use words here.

Sorry but which question still stands?