As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D

Many people THINK they are saved because they said the sinners prayer or they grew up in church or they religiously do good works but Matthew 7 says

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
Iniquity.

So I believe if you are truly saved then you can not lose your salvation

THE "LOSE" YOUR SALVATION MISDIRECTION

You know, words mean things. They often quite specific. The word "lose" is one of those pretty specific words. In the Christian debate over the permanence of the salvation experience, I get pretty frustrated when the phrase "lose your salvation" is tossed around. It's awfully vague and inaccurate. It misdirects the whole debate.

I really wish we could get EVERYONE to stop people from asking "can you lose your salvation"? Anytime you hear it, you stop, and correct the premise. Salvation isn't a set of keys to be misplaced. It's not a wrong turn leading you to the wrong address.

The real issue here is "once you have experienced God's grace on your life, once you have accepted His gift and claimed him as your Lord, can that ever be undone?"

To answer that, I often have to correct another slight misgiving people have about becoming saved. The Bible tells us that we are not saved by anything man does, but we are saved by what God has done in sacrificing His Son so that we do not have to experience the punishment for our sins ourself. Ok, fine and good.

So your salvation can't be "lost" accidentally along the way, but it can be forfeited on purpose. So the answer to the question "can salvation be undone?" I believe is "yes"... but only through intentional free will at work.

BUT, we actually DO have to do something to be saved. MAN has to make a choice, MAN has to choose to accept the gift given. So, we are participants in the process. We can choose God, or choose not God.

Once we acknowledge our required part in the "finding salvation" process, AND we've corrected the question about permanence removing the inappropriate word "lost", I believe the debate is simpler.

My belief is you cannot "lose" your salvation, if you sin after Christ has established himself in your life (and you WILL sin), then those sins are covered by the blood sacrifice. But, I believe you can CHOOSE to walk away from the gift. Free Will says this must be the case.

You choose to accept Christ, and you can intentionally choose to deny him forever at some point in the future. You can walk away. You cannot lose your salvation through sin alone, since all sin is equal in God's eye and thus all sin is covered by the grace gift.

... and the Bible says they are given over to a reprobate mind meaning they have no desire to *come back* to God. If they still have a desire to come back then they are more like the prodigal son.

YES a person can loose his/her salvation.:eek:
I’ll try to keep this short, but a small book could be written to cover all the different ways.
If we believe what the bible says about salvation.
Once saved always saved (or know so salvation) is a heresy.
The bible tells us in several ways that faith alone does not save.
The clearest message about that is in the book of James.
It says that a faith without works is dead.
A dead faith is and unproven faith. It is merely a claimed faith with nothing to back it up.
Another of the several ways a person can loose salvation is shown by statements Jesus made in several ways.
Basically it is this you must be forgiven of your sins and if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven.
Also, the Lord’s Prayer Jesus taught us gives a clear understanding of that, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
In that we actually ask God to forgive us as we forgive others.
If we don’t He won’t.
If we forgive with reservations such as, “I’ll forgive them only when they apologies and ask for forgiveness then I will do so.”
How many of us can remember every sin we commit?
How many people who have sinned against us can remember or even KNOW that they have sinned against us in thought, word, or deed?
In that stipulation we are asking God to forgive only the sins we confess and are sorry for, not those we have forgotten or don’t realize that we sinned.
Another way to lose salvation is for a person who once DID accept God and Christ’s salvation latter rejects them such as a once believer who turns to become an atheist.
Such does happen and often it happens to those who are converted to godless science beliefs.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

I agree that "lose" is an inaccurate term as been said you don't just drop your salvation and then forgot where it fell, losing it forever. It is clearly an act of free will and you can choose to abandon or turn your back on the gift God has given.

I have been challenged by this key theological issue by a book I am reading (Driven by Eternity) and am in agreement with the author and what you all are saying. This message should not be overlooked in our churches as we all need to have a firm view on this foundational premise and have a healthy fear of the Lord.

Thanks for your feedback.

We are not to set stumbling blocks before others or we ourselves do sin. But to follow Christ is acknowledgement of all that is written as truth about Him. Christ was worthy as the begotten Son of God. Walking with Christ is loving God as He loves us. We are told that even as believers we still are sinners but those sins are wash clean in Christ. Humble yourself in knowing you can not rid yourself of those sin. God knows what is within your heart. You must be accountable to your actions

agrees... how does it further this current discussion Did I miss it?

The answer to your question is that I was making the statement shown because of the quote below or part of it. This idea quoted is a traditionally taught way of looking at what the scripture have said. They were taught to confess each sin as they knew it. He has even questioned how anyone can know them all.. So he ended it that he has only confess sins that he knew... This is such a sad stumbling stone that was taught. For Christ Truth has brought so much more...



Basically it is this you must be forgiven of your sins and if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven.
Also, the Lord's Prayer Jesus taught us gives a clear understanding of that, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
In that we actually ask God to forgive us as we forgive others.
If we don't He won't.
If we forgive with reservations such as, “I'll forgive them only when they apologies and ask for forgiveness then I will do so.”
How many of us can remember each and every sin we commit?
How many people who have sinned against us can remember or even KNOW that they have sinned against us in thought, word, or deed?
In that stipulation we are asking God to forgive only the sins we confess and are sorry for, not those we have forgotten or don't realize that we sinned.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

I hope that God brings him closer to the Truth in knowing all sins are forgiven when you repent and humble yourself knowing you are a sinner, and it is not confess to each that makes or breaks your salvation. As I said you can not rid yourself of sin by confession. Jesus is the judge and no one else.. . what is in your heart and soul is what matters.

OK, that makes sense. We're just drifting slightly (not far) off topic, so I got lost. (easy for me to do... hehe).

sndbay,
It is not I who said that your sins are not forgive IF you do not forgive others.
Jesus Christ said it in several ways.
I believe Jesus he made it clear that If we forgive others only then He will forgive us.
That IS in the Holy Bible.
Peace and kindness

sndbay,
It is not I who said that your sins are not forgive IF you do not forgive others.
Jesus Christ said it in several ways.
I believe Jesus he made it clear that If we forgive others only then He will forgive us.
That IS in the Holy Bible.
Peace and kindness

Yes Jesus told us to be of pure hearted. Loving one another and not causing harm to one another. It is also a commandment. So in being forgiving to others is another way of saying be pure hearted to others. And Christ is not likely to find forgiveness in someone that holds no love for others in his heart.
`In Chirst

sndbay,
Very good observation on that.
Well said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D

The Bible is CLEAR on this... IF you are a Blood bought, born again Christian, IN CHRIST, CHRIST IN YOU, sealed with the HOlY SPIRIT of promise, there is NOTHING and I mean NOTHING that can cause you to LOSE your salvation! Period...

I will ONLY add this... I said... IF!

Lose accidentally or sin away = no.
Walk away from intentionally or forfeit = yes.

As I explained presiously here, there ARE ways that a person CAN lose their salvation. The bible makes that clear. Jesus Christ's words on it make that clear.
You must be forgiven to get into heaven and IF you do not forgive others you will NOT be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

If they 'lose' their salvation and never 'find it' again they were never really 'saved' and only believed they were.
If they were truly 'saved' and lost it then the verse about God giving them over to a reprobate mind applies and you have to do some really serious sin for that.
If you do not forgive then you have not grown spiritually and most likely never really saved to begin with.
Many people think they can say the sinners prayer, or a bunch of hail Mary's or do good works, or even say I am saved because my grandma told me. So really it is a fruitless argument as long as we do not know the persons real heart and do not know IF they were ever truly 'saved' to begin with.

If they 'lose' their salvation and never 'find it' again they were never really 'saved' and only believed they were.

I agree. You cannot lose your salvation!

And anyone who "walks away" from salvation wasn't saved to begin with.

I can't help but wonder if those who think salvation can be lost truly feel the strength and power of the Holy Spirit.

If anyone could go from truly saved to not saved then Jesus' death would not be good enough. I feel pity in my heart for anyone who believes such a thing. The only thing Jesus' death does not cover is those who don't accept God's free gift of salvation through the Son Jesus. Jesus' blood covers ALL sin.

Therefore salvation cannot be lost, and anyone who is truly saved wouldn't walk away from it!

Jesus tells us in several ways that one must forgive others to be forgiven.
He talk us to pray, "Forgive us our trespasses AS WE forgive those who trespass against us."
It is clear that salvation is NOT for those who refuse to forgive.
Whether you want to call that lose salvation or never had, the fact of Jesus Christ's words remains.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Arcura:

I admit this is, at times, confusing to me,

Does faith come first then the deeds, as referred to by James, such as forgiving others, come after?

Or is the deeds that lead to faith?




John 15

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing



I appreciate your opinion.

Grace and Peace,
Gerry

Does faith come first then the deeds, as referred to by James, such as forgiving others, come after?

Or is the deeds that lead to faith?


If we examine the Greek text we find that the word in the NT translated as "faith" and "faithfulness" is the same word (in Greek it is pistis). This will help us understand that our faith, if it is real, will exhibit itself in faithfulness (thus deeds). To be faithful, one must first have faith. It would make no sense to suggest that one could exhibit their faithfulness to God before they had faith.

If we consider scripture this way, the relationship between faith and works becomes clearer. For example, the passage that is often used to suggest that works are necessary for salvation suddenly loses the apparent ambiguity:

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV

If we replace the word "faith" with "faithfulness", we read:

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faithfulness without works is dead also."

This makes sense. If a person truly has faith, that faith will exhibit itself in faithfulness by means of works. If a person is not faithful by acting on that faith, then one could rightly ask if they have a true or living faith. Read with this understanding of the original Greek, we can see that there is no passage which, read in context, suggests that works comes first.

Further, scripture is clear that woprks without first having faith in God cannot please God:

Rom 8:7-8
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
NKJV

Thus it is first faith, which results in faithfulness, which produces works pleasing to God.

inthebox,
It appears to me that what Tj3 is doing is twisting Scripture to fit the idea that faith alone saves.
That ignores the very many passages which tell the Christians to do go works, thus working their faith.
Yes, a truly strong faithful person will try to do as Jesus and the apostles tell us regarding doing go works, but the other side of the coin is that not doing works is a dead faith as scripture clearly says.
Doing good works also lays up a treasure in heaven where niether thief breaks on or moth destroys.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

inthebox,
It appears to me that what Tj3 is doing is twisting Scripture to fit the idea that faith alone saves.
That ignores the very many passages which tell the Christians to do go works, thus working their faith.
Yes, a truly strong faithful person will try to do as Jesus and the apostles tell us regarding doing go works, but the other side of the coin is that not doing works is a dead faith as scripture clearly says.
Doing good works also lays up a treasure in heaven where niether theif breaks on or moth destroys.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Rather than attacking the person, why don't you get into the Bible, go to the Greek, and if you feel that I erred then demonstrate that from the word of God.

Attacking a person with accusations of "twisting" because they fail to agree with you is not convincing. If we truly want to hear what God's word has to say, we need to be willing to allow it to speak to us, and not force fit our personal views or those of our denominations on to what scripture says.

Why don't you show us why you believe that the Greek does not say what I indicated? Do you have a lexicon reference to show us?

I don't mean to start a debate.

I appreciate both Arcura and Tj3's input. Thank you both.
Sorry Mountain Man - good question.
Grace and Peace all,
Gerry

Not a problem Inthebox! You became passionate no harm.

I appreciate all the feedback and responses.

We should be clear that this is a much debated topic which very mature Christians still sometimes have to "chew on" for a time.

It is a "chicken or the egg" type debate that leaves a lot of IF's in question.

This question was raised for me out of a book that I am reading (Driven by Eternity, John Bevire). Before the book I believed you could not "forfeit" your salvation BUT now I believe you can. BUT still very interesting takes from all of you.

Stay strong in your faith until the end and have a healthy fear of the Lord that created you and this will not become an issue.

Revelation 3:5
All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.

Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 7
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


Yes. Salvation can be lost.

savedsinner7,
Yes. Good post.
You posted some of the many bible teachings on that subject that some people do ignore.
Know-so-salvation is un-biblical and a heresy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

savedsinner7,
Yes. Good post.
You posted some of the many bible teachings on that subject that some people do ignore.
Know-so-salvation is un-biblical and a heresy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

Could you define what you mean by "know-so-salvation"?

I am sure that you are aware that God provides assurance of salvation to those who have receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:

1 Thess 1:5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

Therefore I presume that this is not what you mean. But it is not clear what you do mean by "know-so-salvation". Please clarify.

Tj3,
We have discussed this on other boards so why are you bringing it up again here if not to cause trouble.
God has promised assured salvation (know-so-salvation) IF we do certain things an having faith is but one of them. So the bible says.
That is what I believe; the bible.
And I WILL NOT discuss it further with YOU.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
We have discussed this on other boards so why are you bringing it up again here if not to cause trouble.


Fred,

It seems to me that you raised the point and since the term has not been defined previously, I believe that it is important to do so to avoid mis-understanding. Check your accusations at the door when you come in!


God has promised assured salvation (know-so-salvation)


This sounds like you are saying that you are defining "know-so-salvation" (which you say is a heresy) is the Biblical assurance of salvation. Is that correct? Because if that is what you are saying, I must explicitly disagree that scripture teaches heresy.

This is why I think that we need to be clear on terminology.


IF we do certain things an having faith is but one of them. So the bible says.


I agree that faith does not save - It is believing in Christ that saves.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NKJV

I trust that you understanding the differentiation between "believing" and "believing in Christ".

Are you saying that there is something other than believing in Christ that is essential for salvation?

Tj3,
As I said, I will NOT discuss it further with YOU!
You believe as you wish as I will. OK?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
As I said, I will NOT discuss it further with YOU!
You believe as you wish as I will. OK?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

You are always welcome to believe as you wish. But I trust that you are aware that this area is for discussion, and I and others who may or may not agree with you have an equal right to believe as we wish and to provide the scriptural basis for those beliefs.

If you chose not to respond to what I post, that is okay with me and that is your option. But that will not stop me from posting and validating my position.

Tom

No. You can Not lose your salvation. We are made perfect and justified by the blood of Christ. Many Christians say otherwise, but that is because they have either not studied the Bible closely and have listened to what others teach, or just don't fully understand the teachings. The Bible tells us that all we need to do is believe that christ is our saviour. Our human bodies will never be perfect, nor will our carnal actions. God does not expect them to be. It is our spirit that is perfect and that is what he is most interested in. God is not petty nor vindictive as some would have us believe. God loves us as we are.

There is no such thing in the bible as "Onced Saved, Always Saved". In fact, even saved, there is possibility to go back to perdition as stated in Hebrews 10:38-39

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

One perfect example of this is Judas Iscariot who sold Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

Criado,
Excellent passages and example.
The reason I will not discuss his subject farther with Tom Smith (Tj3) is that I have been on boards with him and others like him where it has been shown be me and many others that the bible clearly tells us in may ways and passages that the idea of once "saved always saved" is not in the bible and indeed is a heresy.
Those who think that way can not be convinced with the many bible passages that prove know-so salvation is a very wrong belief.
I an many others are certain the Judas loved and believed Jesus up to a point.
He THOUGHT that with Christ's power he would resist arrest which he could have done or call a leagion of angels to protect Him.
But that would have been a conflict to Christ Jesus' mission.
Judas could not get that through his head so he lost the salvation that he once had.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Criado,
Excellent passages and example.
The reason I will not discuss his subject farther with Tom Smith (Tj3) is that I have been on boards with him and others like him where it has been shown be me and many others that the bible clearly tells us in may ways and passages that the idea of once "saved always saved" is not in the bible and indeed is a heresy.


Fred,

Thank you for a great example of why there are problems in communication on boards like this. We (you and me, though you may imagine others) may have discussed many things, but you have not taken the time to read what I have said. I see it over and over when you mis-represent me. Indeed, though we have had discussions, I do not remember you ever asking me my views on this specific topic. Maybe you just guessed?

Now listen clearly:

I do not believe in once saved always saved.

Is that clear now?

However, I also do not agree that it is a heresy, and I can receive those who disagree with me on OSAS as brothers in Christ, though I do not agree that their position accurately reflects what scripture says. What we do find in scripture is that we can not "lose" our salvation (i.e. John 10:28), but we can reject or turn away from it wilfully (1 Tim 4:1, 1 Tim 6:10, Heb 6:4-6).

Now let's see if you continue to make that mis-representation. Perhaps if you take the time to actually read what I said, and interact respectfully, we can have a dialogue, as I have suggested many times before.



Those who think that way can not be convinced with the many bible passages that prove know-so salvation is a very wrong belief.


This is another problem. You accuse people of believing this, but you consistently refuse to define what you mean. That is a logic fallacy known as a "straw-man"

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved"

No. Scripture is clear:

Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.


or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation?

Sin.

Galatians 5 21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.


Very interested to get your feedback.:D

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3,
Thank you for making your belief on that clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Thanks for the input on the topic I posted. I do believe as most of you that you can turn your back on God's assurance of salvation or reject it. There are many passages in the Bible that support that theology and we should live accordingly with fear and reverence to a God who has offered such a wonderful gift and promises eternal rewards for great faith through the long race.

To Tom and Fred: As brothers in Christ I find it very hard to listen to your bickering regarding this principle and only see a division occurring between you, when you both love and follow the same Saviour. Put aside the small differences and focus on unconditional love and respect for one another.

To Tom and Fred: As brothers in Christ I find it very hard to listen to your bickering regarding this principle and only see a division occurring between you, when you both love and follow the same Saviour. Put aside the small differences and focus on unconditional love and respect for one another.

Mountain_man, Fred has denied that he follows the same Saviour as I do, and has suggested that by following the Biblical gospel that I am unsaved.

There is no bickering from my side, but I am concerned about Fred. As Fred well knows, I have told him many times that I bear no ill will towards him, and remain hopeful and willing that someday that he will put down the hatchet and accept my offer. I have even offered to take whatever he has against me off line and discuss it with him, but he has rejected each attempt.

Nonetheless, my sincere offer to keep the door open for him will never expire. I remain hopeful that someday he will take me up on it. I do hope that he will be with us in heaven to spend eternity worshiping God.

As you have all quoted bible and verse very admirably ( I commend you all ) I will just put my simplistic view...

If you turn away from the hand that feeds you, it is very difficult for that hand to open up again, however the option is always there, for the hand to re-open

e,g born again

Blessings

NO You can not loose your salvation, because once you give your heart to Jesus Christ, He will hold on to it forever. You may give up in It, but He will always have your hand, and will never let go. Once you give your heart, there is no taking It back. GOD bless!

Thomaslover_C
Sorry but that is not biblical.
As has been pointed out here a person can lose his/her salvation.
Please read these post again.
Several ways persons can loses their salvation has been provided here.
Please and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Once you give your heart, there is no taking It back.

I can agree with Thomaslover because she said once you have him IN your heart,
not lip service of professing Christians that CAN 'lose their salvation'.

They word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

The scripture in Deuteronomy speak of lightly esteemed which means to be foolish, or to
Wither and fade the Rock of your own salvation.

Deu. 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered [with fatness]; then he forsook God [which] made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Note: Psalms 3:8 Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD: thy blessing [is] upon thy people. Selah.

The coming and going of salvation lies in the hands of the Lord. Christ brought salvation, and Christ gave salvation to those who believe in Him. But I would not question whether God would become as jealous as He says in Deuteronomy scripture to anyone that forsook Him.

Thomaslover_C
Sorry but that is not biblical.
As has been pointed out here a person can lose his/her salvation.
Please read these post again.
Several ways persons can loses their salvation has been provided here.
Please and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

Scripture is specific that one cannot lose their salvation. (John 10:28-29)

It is indeed possible for a person to walk away from their salvation (and scripture gives several examples of that), but they cannot lose it.

There is no such thing in the bible as "Onced Saved, Always Saved". In fact, even saved, ther is possibility to go back to perdition as stated in Hebrews 10:38-39

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

One perfect example of this is Judas Iscariot who sold Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

Salvation is given to us by Christ.. If and when any decision on anyone's salvation is in question, it would be Christ only that judges.. Always causion yourself in judgement of others, no matter what your mortal mind thinks.
The same goes to Fred in judgement of forgiveness.. We are told to forgive or not be forgiven, but don't make the mistake in thinking you can judge the salvation of someone else or yourself because you question their forgiving nature, unforgiving nature, or their heart... Salvation belongth to the Lord Psalms 3:8

Tj3,
Scripture IS specific when Jesus says that if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven.
God forgives us as we forgive others.
If you are not forgiven than you will lose any salvation you might have had.
Just a day or so back you said that you do not believe in Know-so-salvation and now you come back and claim that Scripture indicates that.
So once again you make me not trust what you say.
I'm still praying for you.
Fred (arcura)

Tj3,
Scripture IS specific when Jesus says that if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven.
God forgives us as we forgive others.
If you are not forgiven than you will lose any salvation you might have had.
Just a day or so back you said that you do not believe in Know-so-salvation and now you come back and claim that Scripture indicates that.


Fred, it is dishonest to mis-represent what I said. I said nothing of the sort.

I said that I do not believe in once-saved-always-saved. You keep using that term "know so salvation" and have refused to define it every time asked, so I have never said that I do or do not believe it whatever it is, because I will not respond if you refuse to define your terms.

Once again, Fred, will you define your terms? Or are you playing games?


So once again you make me not trust what you say.

Fred, I could not care less what you think of me. You go from board to board playing these same games.

Tj3,
Once saved always saved and Know-so-salvation are the same thing as used by several different denominations, primarily various Baptist denominations.
To me they are the same non-biblical teaching because a person can lose his/her salvation via several ways.
And, only God knows for sure who will God to heaven.
Neither you or I or anyone else here knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tj3,
Once saved always saved and Know-so-salvation are the same thing as used by several different denominations, primarily various Baptist denominations.


Fred,

I did not realize that was your derogatory term for OSAS. But nonetheless, I do not believe in OSAS - why do you choose to mis-represent me? Don't you have enough to do trying to defend your denomination's doctrines?

Second, your lack of knowledge of Baptist denominations is horrendous. If you take 5 minutes some day to check out even the basics, you will find that Baptist denominations go from Arminian through to Calvinist, and most variations in between. It should not take you any longer than that to find out how wrong your mis-understanding is.


To me they are the same non-biblical teaching because a person can lose his/her salvation via several ways.

Do you know the difference between "losing" your salvation, and willfully choosing to walk away from it?

Do you know that people who believe in OSAS believe that you can do neither?

Can you show me a single verse that says that you can "lose" your salvation?

If you believe that a person can lose their salvation, how do you explain this?

John 10:27-30
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
NKJV

Now, people can walk away from salvation - scripture says so:

1 Tim 4:1-4
4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
NKJV

(BTW, do you find the examples of false doctrines to be interesting)

Tj3,
I did not intentionally misrepresent you as I explained.
If that upsets you I am sorry that it does.
I will henceforth try to keep in mind that you think that OSAS and Know-so-salvation are not the same thing as a great many other people do believe they are the same.
I have had several people of different denominations tell me that they believe that they are the same.
One verse, my goodness there are several, but the one I have used the most here that shows that a person can loses the salvation they may once have had is from the lips of Jesus.
From the NJB Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either."
As you know a person must be forgiven to get into heaven.
I know several people who were at one time very forgiven but something bad happened to them caused by another person and they refuse to forgive that person's crime against them.
On the other hand I know a mother here in Montana who's daughter was raped and murdered by a man who she now has publicly forgiven him.
I forgive everyone who has sinned against me by thought word or deed whether I know about the sins or not.
That is the way I ask God to forgive me and according to Jesus, God the Son, I will be forgiven in that manner.
He taught us to pray that way, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
I pray that way every day for you and everyone who has sinned against me and ask that your sins (whatever they may be) will be forgiven by God.
Why? The answer is that I would like to meet you in paradise.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either."
As you know a person must be forgiven to get into heaven.

Then you believe we must 'get saved' over and over all day long? Do I understand you right?

Suppose I am hit by another car and have great rage against him, then go over a cliff before I have time to forgive him. Will I have lost my salvation?

The four gospels were before Christ died and was raised again. Salvation was not available to us before this happened. Jesus could forgive sins, but the grace of God has not been poured out, esp. on the Gentiles: We were 'without hope'

Romans 5

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV)

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

It is by faith that we are saved, and that by grace: Romanss 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I believe that the Blood has not lost Its power! And He forgives our iniquities, sins we do not even know we do.

However Mark 3:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=3&verse=29&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
I do not believe a sinner can commit this sin, I believe one must know that he is doing this, and deliberately does this, not by accident, but on purpose. I cannot imagine why anyone would, but if it were not possible, it would not be written in God's Word.
I do not believe a person can 'misplace' their salvation, or commit any sin that is not already covered by the Blood of Jesus; except for blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. I do believe this sin will take away our salvation.
I do believe we are to forgive others, but I do not believe our salvation rests on that. Salvation is so much more than just forgiveness of sins. Jesus could forgive sin while on earth, but now He is sitting on the right hand of the majesty on high. He is our constant Intercessor, He sent the Spirit of God to live in us and operate through us. Salvation includes ever thing we could ever need, forgiveness is only a part of that.
Sin is sin, holding a grudge against someone is not worse than murder, hatred is considered the same as murder, and lusting is the same as adultery. The sin problem was done away with in Christ. He took our sins and carried our griefs, and by His stripes, we are healed. No, I don't think that means we have a ticket to sin, but sin has no power over me.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now, 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

He told us all the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments: that we should love God with all our heart, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That does include, but is not exclusive to, forgiving them.

I believe one must study the whole Bible and study each verse in context, and not pick and chose verses they like or only the ones they understand.

I have had the experience many times over the years, of reading a verse I'd read a hundred times, knew it by heart, and suddenly get a whole new revelation of what it meant.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher; He will lead and guide us into all truth. He will show us the will of God for our lives.

Does it really matter if a person can lose his salvation or not? We are saved by faith, through grace and that is the gift of God, as long as we hold onto our faith, we are not in any danger one way or the other. Unless, we decide to blaspheme.

Tj3,
I did not intentionally misrepresent you as I explained.

But you did Fred - I had told you many times before what I believe in this regard.


I will henceforth try to keep in mind that you think that OSAS and Know-so-salvation are not the same thing as a great many other people do believe they are the same.

There is no such thing as "know-so" salvation. That is your personal derogatory term for people you don't agree with. Therefore define it as you wish.


From the NJB Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either."
As you know a person must be forgiven to get into heaven.
I know several people who were at one time very forgiven but something bad happened to them caused by another person and they refuse to forgive that person's crime against them.
On the other hand I know a mother here in Montana who's daughter was raped and murdered by a man who she now has publicly forgiven him.
I forgive everyone who has sinned against me by thought word or deed whether I know about the sins or not.

This does not speak to the matter of whether you can lose your salvation.

Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either."
As you know a person must be forgiven to get into heaven.

Then you believe we must ‘get saved’ over and over all day long? Do I understand you right?

No. We believe we must:
Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

We don't believe in judging ourselves:
1 Corinthians 4 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self.

1 Corinthians 10 12 Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Therefore we do not exalt ourselves.


Suppose I am hit by another car and have great rage against him, then go over a cliff before I have time to forgive him. Will I have lost my salvation?

What does Scripture say:

Luke 6 37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

This is what the Church teaches.


The four gospels were before Christ died and was raised again. Salvation was not available to us before this happened. Jesus could forgive sins, but the grace of God has not been poured out, esp. on the Gentiles: We were ‘without hope’

Romans 5

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV)

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

It is by faith that we are saved, and that by grace: Romanss 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I believe that the Blood has not lost Its power! And He forgives our iniquities, sins we do not even know we do.

However Mark 3:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=3&verse=29&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
I do not believe a sinner can commit this sin, I believe one must know that he is doing this, and deliberately does this, not by accident, but on purpose. I cannot imagine why anyone would, but if it were not possible, it would not be written in God’s Word.
I do not believe a person can ‘misplace’ their salvation, or commit any sin that is not already covered by the Blood of Jesus; except for blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. I do believe this sin will take away our salvation.
I do believe we are to forgive others, but I do not believe our salvation rests on that. Salvation is so much more than just forgiveness of sins. Jesus could forgive sin while on earth, but now He is sitting on the right hand of the majesty on high. He is our constant Intercessor, He sent the Spirit of God to live in us and operate through us. Salvation includes ever thing we could ever need, forgiveness is only a part of that.
Sin is sin, holding a grudge against someone is not worse than murder, hatred is considered the same as murder, and lusting is the same as adultery. The sin problem was done away with in Christ. He took our sins and carried our griefs, and by His stripes, we are healed. No, I don’t think that means we have a ticket to sin, but sin has no power over me.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now, 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So, we are not condemned if we do not sin. That is what this verse says.

therefore now no condemnation [U]to them which are in Christ

No condemnation.

who walk not after the flesh

For those who don't sin.


He told us all the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments: that we should love God with all our heart, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That does include, but is not exclusive to, forgiving them.

That is what the Catholic Church teaches.


I believe one must study the whole Bible and study each verse in context, and not pick and chose verses they like or only the ones they understand.

I have had the experience many times over the years, of reading a verse I’d read a hundred times, knew it by heart, and suddenly get a whole new revelation of what it meant.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher; He will lead and guide us into all truth. He will show us the will of God for our lives.

Does it really matter if a person can lose his salvation or not? We are saved by faith, through grace and that is the gift of God, as long as we hold onto our faith, we are not in any danger one way or the other. Unless, we decide to blaspheme.[/QUOTE]

That is a misunderstanding of Scripture:
James 2 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

Faith without works, is dead:
James 2 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Well, I didn't have time to examine your entire statement in detail. I have to leave. But God willing I'll be back in 8 days.

God bless you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Suppose I am hit by another car and have great rage against him, then go over a cliff before I have time to forgive him. Will I have lost my salvation?
"A great rage" in this scenario is certainly not enough to give away your salvation... but if over the years you slowly sin against God and finally decide one day that Christianity is bunk and THEN go over the cliff before you have a chance to repent, then yes -- you have lost/given away your salvation.

I just don't buy the old argument that a "TRUE" Christian will never fall into serious sin... if that happens, all I hear is "Well, then he wasn't TRULY saved..." and I think that's a gigantic dodge.

We are all sinners... we all continue to sin... so I certainly agree that we can't "lose" our salvation as if we don't do enough to earn it, but I can't accept that through our own failings and weakness we can not give away our salvation by rejecting the grace of God.

Scott wrote: I just don't buy the old argument that a "TRUE" Christian will never fall into serious sin... if that happens, all I hear is "Well, then he wasn't TRULY saved..." and I think that's a gigantic dodge

I agree. I was born-again, which is the term I prefer to use, at age 23 I will soon be 53, but there was a period during that time, after being hurt badly by church people, the pastor…long story…that I did not go to church for a while. For a time I continued to study the Word and worship God, but drifted away and fell into sin. When I 'hit bottom', I called on God, and He answered me, and forgave me and received me back just as if I'd never sinned. He had always been there for me; He had never left me, as He promised.

I believe by experience that a true Christian, to use the term, in my opinion you are either Christian or not…there are no 'good' Christians, which would infer there are also 'bad' Christian. A Christian can fall into sin, live in sin for a time, and then come back to God just by calling on Him and receiving the forgiveness He provided in Jesus some 2000 years ago. He paid the price for all our sins, past, present and future even before we were even born. It is not of ourselves, we did nothing to gain salvation, and we can do nothing to 'keep' it. Salvation is of the Lord. We just accept it by faith, and then stand by faith.

He is the door to God; we do not have to go through priests anymore. We have access to God Himself, and can go to Him in faith and without fear, and no bells tied to our feet, and actually have a real relationship with Him. Thank God for His Precious Gift.

A Christian can fall into sin, live in sin for a time, and then come back to God just by calling on Him and receiving the forgiveness He provided in Jesus some 2000 years ago.
You are missing my point... what happens if you had died BEFORE you came back to the Lord?

What was the point of your repentance and change of heart if you never needed it?

Quote:
He told us all the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments: that we should love God with all our heart, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That does include, but is not exclusive to, forgiving them.

You said:That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

That is also what my church teaches, and I'm not Catholic, it is the Word of God.


[/quote] Quote:
I believe one must study the whole Bible and study each verse in context, and not pick and chose verses they like or only the ones they understand.

I have had the experience many times over the years, of reading a verse I'd read a hundred times, knew it by heart, and suddenly get a whole new revelation of what it meant.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher; He will lead and guide us into all truth. He will show us the will of God for our lives.

Does it really matter if a person can lose his salvation or not? We are saved by faith, through grace and that is the gift of God, as long as we hold onto our faith, we are not in any danger one way or the other. Unless, we decide to blaspheme.


That is a misunderstanding of Scripture:
James 2 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

Faith without works, is dead:
James 2 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Well, I didn't have time to examine your entire statement in detail. I have to leave. But God willing I'll be back in 8 days.

God bless you,

Sincerely,

De Maria, I certainly don't want to seem argumentative here, as I agree with what you said, yes, faith without works is dead. But the works He means is to love God and do those things that are pleasing to Him, and to love our neighbor as ourselves…to conduct ourselves in a way to bring glory to God.

Abraham lived in a time when works meant building alters and killing animals and burning them, those things could not take away their sins, it only covered their sins until Jesus came and defeated sin once and for all. He was the last sacrifice needed for sin. John called Him, “The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world.”

So, the works of the OT are different from the works of the NT. We have entered into His rest; they could not enter into His rest. “He swore in His wrath, they shall not enter into His rest' because of their unbelief. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is what pleases God, trusting in Him for all your needs, and calling on Him in times of trouble, giving Him praise and worship at all times and to pray without ceasing. Faith is a noun, but believe is a verb, it means to have a faith; be a believer.

Faith that His sacrifice was sufficient and there is nothing more we must do to 'get saved' or 'stay saved.' As long as we continue to believe and do those things that are pleasing in His sight, to hold fast to our confession of faith.

We are new creatures, a brand new kind of creations, because our spirits are born of God. The body without the spirit is dead. Old things have passed away, behold, all things are new. We have new spirits, born of God; we are the children of God. Jesus was the first born of many brethren. Jesus is my big brother. He said when ye pray, say “Our Father, which art in Heaven…”

We have received His Spirit whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, He said He would not leave us as orphans; He would come to us. I believe God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, and these three are One. I do not understand it, but because I have faith in God and He said so, that settles it and I believe it.

Blessings to you,

You are missing my point.... what happens if you had died BEFORE you came back to the Lord?

What was the point of your repentance and change of heart if you never needed it?

Did I say I repented? I thought I said I called on God, and He answered me, and forgave me and received me back just as if I’d never sinned. (justified…just as if I’d ) never sinned. I did need it, but not to go to heaven, I needed it to restore our relationship.

I called on God and received His forgiveness, which He provided 2000 years ago. He forgave me before I ever was born, before I had a change to sin the first time, the forgiveness was there all the time. I did not say I was 'saved' again; I was still 'saved'.

The only sin that will keep a person from going to Heaven, is to NOT believe on Jesus. I still believed. I still had faith. I still prayed. But I did things that were sinful. Someone on here said we all sin everyday... or something like that.

What if you slam your finger in the car door and curse and before you get over it, you died of a heart attack. Would you go to Heaven?

How long do you have to be in sin before you lose your salvation? One minute, one year? Sin is sin, it's all the same to God. Nothing shall separate me from the Love of God, which is in Christ Jesus, nothing except me turning my back on Him. I never turned my back on Him; I drifted away and fell into sin.

I tried to die; God would not let me. He never left me, He protected me even when I tried to die, He caused me to get sick and expel the pills. God was Faithful, even when I was not. But it was His goodness that drew me gently back into the fold. I was the one sheep He went after. And He healed me and brought me back.

I know the verse says a lost sheep, lost can mean many things. One can lose their way, but God always knows where they are and they are not separated from His Love, because 'nothing can separate me from His Love'.

Did I say I repented? I thought I said I called on God, and He answered me, and forgave me and received me back just as if I’d never sinned. (justified…just as if I’d ) never sinned. I did need it, but not to go to heaven, I needed it to restore our relationship.
But after you called on God the first time, you didn't need to repent or retore your relationship because your sins were already forgiven, right?

So once a person is "born again" they can do whatever they please... lie, steal, murder... and just as long as they don't reject Christ go to heaven, that what you are saying?

No if you are born again you do not do whatever you please. Except that whatever you please is pleasing to God. It is a misconception that you do whatever you please just because you are 'born again'. If a 'born again' believer is believing they are able to go about doing whatever they believe then they do not really understand their salvation.

No if you are born again you do not do whatever you please.
I agree.

There are consequences for sin.

No if you are born again you do not do whatever you please. Except that whatever you please is pleasing to God. It is a misconception that you do whatever you please just because you are 'born again'. If a 'born again' believer is believing they are able to go about doing whatever they believe then they do not really understand their salvation.

Rom 6:15-16
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
NKJV

Tj3,
I DID NOT intentionally misrepresent what you said. Period.
Please do not try to twist my words.
You said "There is no such thing as "know-so" salvation. That is your personal derogatory term for people you don't agree with. Therefore define it as you wish."
That again is wrong by you. The term Know-so-Salvation has been around much longer than my 75 years.
I noticed that you did not accept my apology.
Fine, if that is the way you want it so be it.
But never-the-less I AM sorry if that upset you.
I will continue to pray for you as I have for several years.
Peace and kindness.
Fred (arcura)

Tj3,
I DID NOT intentionally misrepresent what you said. Period.
Please do not try to twist my words.


I would like you to stop twisting mine. I was quite explicit with respect to what I believed and you turned around and said something completely different.


You said "There is no such thing as "know-so" salvation. That is your personal derogatory term for people you don't agree with. Therefore define it as you wish."
That again is wrong by you. The term Know-so-Salvation has been around much longer than my 75 years.

Perhaps in your circles there are other who choose derogatory terms for those that they disagree with. I do not agree with OSAS but I would never use such a term to mis-represent the doctrine.


I noticed that you did not accept my apology.

I have told you in the past that I do not hold grudges and always accept sincere apologies. Coming back with an accusatory approach because I did not say anything is a bit ironic.


Fine, if that is the way you want it so be it.
But never-the-less I AM sorry if that upset you.

No upset, but I do hope that someday that you will deal with me in a respectful and honest manner. I consider you and intelligent person and I think that we could have some interesting discussions.

The door remains open, Fred, as it always has been.

Tj3,
I am sorry and very sorry for you.
That is why I will continue to pray for you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Tj3,
I am sorry and very sorry for you.
That is why I will continue to pray for you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

No need to be sorry for me. I have assurance of my salvation:

1 Thess 1:5-6
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

Do have assurance of salvation, Fred? If not, I would like to show you how you can.

My God has cleansed me from all unrighteousness, and has paid the full price.

1 John 1:8-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

There is therefore nothing more for me to pay to merit salvation. He did it all on the cross.

And no one can take it away.

John 10:28-30
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

I feel sorry for anyone who does not know the safety of this salvation offered by Christ freely through His sacrifice on the cross.

You are missing my point.... what happens if you had died BEFORE you came back to the Lord?

What was the point of your repentance and change of heart if you never needed it?
I am confused by some of the terms used here. I am not sure we are talking the same language.

If I had died BEFORE I ‘came back’ to the Lord, I would have gone to heaven. I have no doubt of that. I did not stop believing in God, I did not lose my faith, I did not stop calling on God every day during that time to help me. I still loved God and I knew He still loved me. I still believed in my heart that Jesus was Lord, I was still a Christian saved by grace.

I said ‘fall into sin, live in sin for a time, and come back to God’; I do not know any other way of explaining it, except to tell some of what happened. I stopped going to church, and I adopted some bad habits, I was not were I was before that thing happened.

I prayed to God, I read the word but not as much. I even began to drink some…and some other things. Being out of church, I did not have the support and encouragement of other Christians, or the teaching or other things that being a member of a church means.

I did not kill anyone, or start shoplifting or taking drugs, or selling drugs or stuff like that. I wasn’t where I felt I was suppose to be, and if I had not ‘come back’ to the Lord, repented and received forgiveness, I would have continued until I really don't know what would have happened.

“What was the point of your repentance and change of heart if you never needed it?”
I really do not understand this question, it seems I have answered this before this time. I used repented because it seemed I was forced to, and who said I never needed a change of heart. It is one thing to be saved; it is another to reach your full potential in God.
I hit rock bottom when I got so upset anxiety attack/panic attack, and took too many pills, prescriptions legally obtained from a doctor, but they would not stay down. I believe that was God saying I am not finished with you yet; I still have some things for you to do.

So I called on the Name of the Lord, (after I woke up on the bathroom floor) and had a long talk with Him about many things, and when it was over I knew something had changed, my attitude.

I could have decided to keep going the way I was, or I could ‘come back’ to the Lord and make a real effort to find a church that taught the word and made me feel welcome and part of the body. And to ‘return’ to my former study habits, quit the other bad habits, etc: I chose to do that.
I do not just want to be a ‘sinner saved by grace’ I want to be a ‘Christian saved by grace’ and on fire for God and spreading His Word. I cannot go to Africa, but I can send people, I cannot reach the world for Christ, but I can support those who can. I can intercede for people around the world as well as for those at home.
The attitude I am getting from some of the people on this board is much like the ones from the former church I attended. I do not understand this feeling of hostility I am getting, or imagining. Maybe I am just being too sensitive, but I do not feel welcome here. If I am not, please tell me so. I do not have to visit here, and it will not hurt my feelings.
I have learned that feelings change, so there’s no point is getting overly attached to them.

But after you called on God the first time, you didn't need to repent or retore your relationship because your sins were already forgiven, right?

So once a person is "born again" they can do whatever they please... lie, steal, murder.... and just as long as they don't reject Christ go to heaven, that what you are saying?


I do not understand this. When I called on God the first time was when the relationship was restored, and yes my sins were already forgiven. But NO, a person who is born again does not want to do those things. They want to honor God. If you mean when I first was born again, yes my sins were forgiven. That is what it means that Jesus paid the price for my sins. But it is not automatic, one has to receive it from God, just like one has to believe in their heart and confess with their mouths to be saved, and if one does sin, one has an advocate with the Father, who is faithful and just to forgive sins. I believe in His faithfulness and He is justified and the justifier of those who believe. I believe. I have never stopped believing since I was first born-again, saved what ever you call it here on the Christian site.

So once a person is "born again" they can do whatever they please... lie, steal, murder.... and just as long as they don't reject Christ go to heaven, that what you are saying?[/quote]

I do not know how you jumped this high from what I said.

I have been made the righteousness of God, my sins are forgiven, and they are under the Blood. God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. It is the Grace of God under the new covenant. God does not impute sin to us; His Son paid the price for sin. God does not consider that a minor thing. Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus…Whom God hats set forth to be propitiation through faith in His Blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins.

I thought the question was can you lost your salvation, I believe a person can lose their salvation, by denying Christ, and by blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I believe a person can be lead away by their own lusts and enticed and get so far away from God that they will deny Him. I do not believe a Christian can get so deep in sin as to lose their salvation without at some point denying Christ. I don’t mean they actually have to say the word, “I deny Christ”, but they my as some on here have done, they just don’t believe in God anymore, which God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. These Three are ONE. I hope you understand I mean I believe a person can get that deep in sin

I have not slept for two nights, does anyone on here believe in praying for the sick? Oh, I am not supposed to piggyback questions…sorry….

I hope I have explained myself, I think I have not…because I do not understand the questions. But I did answer the topic question. Didn’t I? Forgive me if I did not, or if I repeated myself or made too many mistakes in typing, spelling or grammar, or terminology.

God bless and keep you,
So glad I finally found the Christian site.

tsila1777,
Yes I believe in praying for the sick and have often done so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I do not believe a Christian can get so deep in sin as to lose their salvation without at some point denying Christ. I don’t mean they actually have to say the word, “I deny Christ”, but they my as some on here have done, they just don’t believe in God anymore, which God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. These Three are ONE. I hope you understand I mean I believe a person can get that deep in sin
I understand what you are saying now... thanks for explaining.

I have not slept for two nights, does anyone on here believe in praying for the sick?

Prayer for the Sick
Dear Jesus, Divine Physician and Healer of the sick, we turn to you in this time of illness. O dearest comforter of the troubled, alleviate our worry and sorrow with your gentle love, and grant us the grace and strength to accept this burden. Dear God, we place our worries in your hands. We place our sick under your care and humbly ask that you restore your servant to health again. Above all, grant us the grace to acknowledge your will and know that whatever you do, you do for the love of us. Amen.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Watch, O Lord, with those who wake, or watch, or weep tonight, and give your angels charge over those who sleep.

Tend your sick ones, O Lord Christ.
Rest your weary ones.
Bless your dying ones.
Soothe your suffering ones.
Pity your afflicted ones.
Shield your joyous ones.
And for all your love's sake. Amen.

-Saint Augustine

ScottRC, Thank you for understanding. I guess it is difficult with so many different terms for 'falling into sin', 'falling away' 'backsliding' etc. to explain something like that. And my typing didn't help... to make it easier. I didn't see the my when I meant may.. anyway. I thank you for the prayer,it is much appreciated. It is because of the pain of Fibromyalgia, that I haven't been able to sleep, they say there is no cure, but I say there is nothing impossible with God.

thank you,
Your sister in Christ,
Tsila

ScottRC,
Thanks much for posting those marvelous prayers.
They are very timely for me right now because my diabetes is acting up and I am feeling bad today.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Dear Tsila1777, Put you hand on the area that needs healing... "I speak to your mind in the name of Jesus Christ and I tell all the lies of the enemy to STOP!

I bind those spirits of fibromyalgia that are trying to bring sickness on you and by the authority of the blood of Jesus, I forbid them to speak to your mind, I tell them to SHUT UP!

Fibromyalgia, I speak to you, in the name of Jesus, COME OUT OF HER RIGHT NOW, I COMMAND YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS LOOSE HER FROM THIS INFIRMITY, COME OUT NOW, I COMMAND YOU, GO.

By the stripes of Jesus, I claim deliverance from all sickness, all pain, all infections, and any other thing that the enemy is trying to bring on your life!

I command healing to come RIGHT NOW, in Jesus name!

Enemy, I command you in Jesus name , GO NOW, I forbid you to come upon any of Tsila's family or friends and I forbid you to return to this place, NOW GO!

Tsila, I pray the peace and love of God would flow over and through you, right now, as you read this, and set you free from all the works of the enemy in your life.

May the Holy Spirit fill all those places vacated by the enemy and bring restoration to your body and your soul.
And may your spirit be lifted with the knowledge that You are seated in Heavenly places, in Christ. Never forget this, if you are seated with Him, then the devil is an invader, kick him out, you don't have to win the battle, it is already won, just put on your armour and resist the works of the enemy.
Stand your ground, it has already been purchased for you.
God bless you!
Peter. :)

Dear Arcura, put your hand on the area that needs healing,. "DIABETES, I SPEAK TO YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, I HAVE BEEN GIVEN AUTHORITY OVER YOU AND I TELL YOU NOW, TO RELEASE FRED FROM THIS SICKNESS!
TAKE YOUR TENTACLES OUT OF HIS BODY RIGHT NOW!
I FORBID YOU TO BRING ANY MORE SICKNESS, ANY MORE PAIN, ANY MORE INFECTION, IN FACT ANY MORE OF ANYTHING ON FRED!
I BIND YOU IN JESUS NAME AND TELL YOU TO COME OUT NOW, LOOSE FRED RIGHT NOW!
BY THE STRIPES OF JESUS, I COMMAND THE HEALING OF GOD TO COME RIGHT NOW, ALL SICKNESS, YOU MUST LEAVE NOW!
I FORBID YOU TO RETURN IN THE NAME OF JESUS!
SPIRIT OF DOUBT, AND SPIRIT OF UNBELIEF, I SPEAK TO YOU, IN THE NAME OF JESUS AND FORBID YOU TO BRING DOUBT AND UNBELIEF ON FRED, HE IS HEALED AND YOU KNOW IT. SO DOES FRED, SO GET OUT AND DON'T COME BACK!
I FORBID IT IN JESUS NAME!
Holy Spirit, I ask you to fill those places left by the enemy, make no room for him in Fred's life, fill him with your love and peace, lead him on the paths of righteousness, for Your Names' sake.
Bless Fred, with all spiritual blessings in Christ. Amen
May the peace that passes understanding, flood over your life and may you know the presence of God in your life.
Bless you, Peter.:)

Peter Wilson,
Thank you so much for you good intentions and prayers for me.
God bless you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Dear Peter,

Thank you so much for the wonderful prayer. It has been hard to believe I'm healed whole and set free when there has been so much pain. I am changing my way of thinking, and talking. I do not say 'i have' fibro anymore, I say I'm healed in the Name of Jesus. We had such a wonderful service in Church this morning, I felt a change and then this prayer. God works all things according to His wisdom and time. Blessed be His Name.

God bless you and keep you.

Your sis in Christ,
Tsila

tsila1777
I am very pleased and happy for yoi.
May God continue to bless you in many ways.
Peace and kindness.
Fred (arcura)

Thank you, Arcura, You are a good man. I preceive that you are a kind person. I appreciate you and your prayers and good thoughts toward me as well.

I pray God to touch you also, and health, and strength will return to your body. The Name of Jesus is above every other name, it is above the name of diabetes, and Fibromyalgia. So, in His Name I declare us both healed, whole and set free. Blessed be the Name of the Lord who takes pleasure in the properity of His servants.
Blessing, my dear brother,
Your sis in Christ,
Tsila

Peter Wilson,
Thank you so much for you good intentions and prayers for me.
God bless you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Dear arcura,
I am so sorry your not well, my son is a diabetic so I know what you go through.. be sure you check your blood sugar etc... it can be affected when your not well.

I am sure the Good Guy upstairs will see what a good man you are,and lay his healing hands upon you.

Bless you Peter for the kindness you show to arcura and others who are unwell on these boards... it's very heart warming to read.

May the light of human kindness extend to everyone who is suffering one way or another today and everyday around the world.

Bless you all

Bless you guys, the Lord told me once in an open vision, that is, I had my eyes wide open, that everybody that I meet, is a part of my vineyard and I am a part of theirs.
So let us all help and pray for each other through this journey, there is enough evil in the world, without bringing it into the body of Christ.
For those that are seeking the promise of healing by our gracious and compassionate Father:

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


Bless our beautiful Saviour and Lord.

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D
Yes, See II Peter 2:20

Yes, See II Peter 2:20

Are you saying "yes" you believe in once saved always saved, or "yes" there are ways to "lose" your salvation?

Are you saying "yes" you believe in once saved always saved, or "yes" there are ways to "lose" your salvation?
Yes, you can lose your salvation by turning away from Christ and going back into sin.

Yes, you can lose your salvation by turning away from Christ and going back into sin.

I agree. I prefer to say that is willfully turning from your salvation. The word "losing" has the connotation of becoming unsaved without a decision to turn away.

0rphan ,
Thank you much for your concern.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I very deliberately chose not to read any of the replies you've gotten, so forgive me if I duplicate anyone else's answer.

I honestly don't believe that we can have our salvation taken away by any force on earth, Heaven, or hell. Even though the verse says something like, "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away," I don't see that as applying to salvation. I figure if He loves us enough to go through ALL that He has on our behalf, up to and including the most extreme so far--the death of His Son for our reconciliation--I don't quite see what reason He would have for taking it away.

However, sometimes I wonder if we can voluntarily give it back.

As an analogy (and probably a rather weak one), suppose I gave you a gift. Maybe I give you a beautiful house with all the taxes paid and the utilities paid for the rest of your life, along with a warranty that would cover any and all repairs. I don't ask for anything in return, just for you to live in this grand house I've given you. Is it not possible for you to move in and enjoy your new gift, but at some point in the future decide that you don't want it anymore, for whatever reason? Can't you always give the keys back to me and move out?

I don't know, just a thought.

DK

kindj
There are several ways to "give the house back"
All of them have been posted here including the big one.
If you do not forgive others to will not be forgive AND to enter heaven you must be forgive.
Unclean souls are not allowed in heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Are you saying "yes" you believe in once saved always saved, or "yes" there are ways to "lose" your salvation?

2 Peter 2
20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.

That's pretty straight forward.

Here's another:

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

And another:

John 15
5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.

There is no interpretation needed in these verses. The message is clear. You can lose your salvation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

There is no interpretation needed in these verses. The message is clear. You can lose your salvation.

Both verses require decisions (note in the one verse, it even says "willfully"?)

This is not "losing" salvation, but rather is willfully turning from ones salvation.

De Maria,
Right you are.
Expect some others to try to scrum out from under the clear messages.
It is a matter of all that the word "lose" means.
Lose can mean different things to different people.
It's like someone saying
I lost 20 pounds on that diet.
Did they real lose them or did they just melt away.
It is different than saying "I lost my watch" or "I lost my love".
I believe that God's salvation through the sacrifice of "The Lamb of God"
Is available to each person conceived.
If they don't get it they have lost the most valuable thing they had or could have had.

De Maria,
Right you are.
Expect some others to try to scrum out from under the clear messages.
It is a matter of all that the word "lose" means.
Lose can mean different things to different people.
It's like someone saying
I lost 20 pounds on that diet.
Did they real lose them or did they just melt away.
It is different than saying "I lost my watch" or "I lost my love".
I believe that God's salvation through the sacrifice of "The Lamb of God"
is available to each person conceived.
If they don't get it they have lost the most valuable thing they had or could have had.

Then I wonder why you argue so about the word.

What is important is that through the gospel of Jesus Christ, we can have assurance of salvation, and we need not worry about losing our salvation.

According to the traditions of the church, no one can really know for sure.
"Whether or not we are Christians, judgment awaits us at death. That judgment depends on whether we have lived our lives in accordance with God’s purpose or whether we have lived it for our own selfish ends. Our place in eternity depends on the sort of life we lead here and upon our attitude to our fellow men. The belief of Catholics. page 170

That seems contrary to scripture which says:

1 Thess 1:5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake
NKJV

saintjoan,
You are right and so is The Church,
The bible tells us we have the "hope" of salvation If we have faith, persevere in it and do the works that prove we have enough faith.
Otherwise a faith without works is dead.
Also one of the works we must do is forgive those who sin against us.
If we do not so forgive we will Not be forgiven.
If we are not forgiven we can not enter heaven.
The bible tells us that clearly.
Thus salvation is Not assured unless we fulfill all that which we are told to do.
That includes being baptized, loving others as Jesus loved us and much more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

saintjoan,
You are right and so is The Church,
The bible tells us we have the "hope" of salvation If we have faith, persevere in it and do the works that prove we have enough faith.
Otherwise a faith without works is dead.
Also one of the works we must do is forgive those who sin against us.
If we do not so forgive we will Not be forgiven.
If we are not forgiven we can not enter heaven.
The bible tells us that clearly.
Thus salvation is Not assured unless we fulfill all that which we are told to do.
That includes being baptized, loving others as Jesus loved us and much more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Do you have assurance of salvation?

Tj3,
To answer your question...
Only God Knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
To answer your question...
Only God Knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,

If you don't know for sure that you have salvation, then you should really start thinking about getting saved.

Love and peace

If you don't know for sure that you have salvation, then you should really start thinking about getting saved.
I got to say that I agree...

I'm all for being "humble" and all... but a saving faith in Jesus Christ should CERTAINLY give you some assurance of your salvation.

The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."( 2 Cor 17) Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."(Rom 8:21).

tsila1777,
As far as the bible is concerned no one knows for absolute sure but God.
It tells us to HOPE for salvation.
The word hope is in the gospels many times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It also says that Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing not seen.

Substance means: The real physical matter of which a person or thing consists. The choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience. The idea that is intended.


Do you have faith? I assume you do, then you have substance and evidence of your salvation. I believe you are saved...I have more confidence in your salvation than you do. But it is by faith that we are saved through grace and that is the gift of God, that being the Grace and the Faith is the gift of God. So that all glory goes to God. It pleases God when you have faith that is the only way to please God.

So, voice your faith in God because He cannot lie.

Peace and love, dear one.

Tj3,
To answer your question......
Only God Knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is right Fred, and God told us in His word that we those who are saved are given assurance of salvation.

I have assurance of salvation.

Fred, you may want to talk to Scott - he appears to be aware that assurance of salvation is part of the gospel.

From the parable of the seeds where Jesus spoke of those who believed, but some had their faith strangled by the cares of this world and so subjectively "lost" what Jesus won for them.

We are told to make our faith more firm and other such phrases to indicate that we need to be on guard. The vicarious atonement of Christ DOES NOT CHANGE. What could change is a person's disinterest or despising of what He accomplished for us.

Col 1:21-23

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith , established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
NIV

Rev 2:12-13

These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13 I know where you live — where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city — where Satan lives.
NIV

Again I feel the need to throw away my Bible since the Decree supersedes the Bible on salvation.

I think I may start a new post on Bible verses to throw away and do it verse by verse instead of just throwing the entire thing away at once

I guess I start with

King James Bible
Rom 1:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To TJ3
Bible believing Christians, will often quote the Holy Bible to justify their assurance of salvation, quoting verses such as:
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Good verse


Therefore Arcura cannot know with certainty that he is going to heaven.

I feel sorry for him.


And if you know that you are going to heaven, then you are going to hell, for anyone who knows that they are going to heaven is accursed.

That sounds like the Mormon view - those who go to heaven spend eternity in "everlasting burnings":)

To TJ3
Bible believing Christians, will often quote the Holy Bible to justify their assurance of salvation, quoting verses such as:
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The fundamentalists are willingly ignorant that such a teaching is in fact a damnable heresy. For the church (Roman Catholic) teaches:
If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Canon XV of the Decree on Justification
If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Canon XVI of the Decree on Justification

Correcting the heretical views expressed by the Apostle John.

Therefore Arcura cannot know with certainty that he is going to heaven.

And if you know that you are going to heaven, then you are going to hell, for anyone who knows that they are going to heaven is accursed.

Did Elijah go to heaven or hell?

Kings 2 9 And when they were gone over, Elias said to Eliseus: Ask what thou wilt have me to do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Eliseus said: I beseech thee that in me may be thy double spirit.

And did St. Paul go to heaven or hell?
2 Timothy 4 8 As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming. Make haste to come to me quickly.

I believe they both went to heaven and they both knew beforehand that they would go to heaven.

The Church teaching is thus:

CHAPTER XII.

That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That sounds like the Mormon view - those who go to heaven spend eternity in "everlasting burnings":)

Sounds as though they have one thing right. After all, we will be with God and God is a consuming Fire. Is He not?

Sincerely,

De Maria

And if you know that you are going to heaven, then you are going to hell, for anyone who knows that they are going to heaven is accursed.

What?? Where did this come from?

That is right Fred, and God told us in His word that we those who are saved are given assurance of salvation.

I have assurance of salvation.

Fred, you may want to talk to Scott - he appears to be aware that assurance of salvation is part of the gospel.

Scott seems to be a knowledgeable Catholic. Therefore I agree with him that we are assured of salvation if we persevere to th end.

In the same vein, I know that Fred believes he will go to heaven if he remains in God's grace.

We certainly do hope and are assured of salvation but we are not our judge, it is Christ who judges though our conscience be clear:
1 Corinthians 4 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.

The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants preach a general absolute assurance of salvation. But that contradicts Scripture:

Heb 10 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Then I wonder why you argue so about the word.

What is important is that through the gospel of Jesus Christ, we can have assurance of salvation, and we need not worry about losing our salvation.

I agree with what you've said. As long as you don't preach once saved always saved and absolute assurance of salvation.

I don't worry about losing my salvation as long as I do the will of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sounds as though they have one thing right. After all, we will be with God and God is a consuming Fire. Is He not?


Did you ever take that verse out of context.

Deut 9:3-4
3 "Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
NKJV

So you expect to be in the consuming fire of God? I am sorry to hear that. I plan to be in heaven.

Scott seems to be a knowledgeable Catholic. Therefore I agree with him that we are assured of salvation if we persevere to th end.

In the same vein, I know that Fred believes he will go to heaven if he remains in God's grace.

John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

God's grace or the grace of the Roman Catholic denomination?


The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants preach a general absolute assurance of salvation. But that contradicts Scripture:

I am not a protestant, but apparently the protestants have it right.


Heb 10 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

This refers to people who reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. They end up in everlasting burnings.

Rev 20:9-10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NKJV

Did you ever take that verse out of context.

Deut 9:3-4
3 "Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
NKJV

So you expect to be in the consuming fire of God? I am sorry to hear that. I plan to be in heaven.

As I understand it, seraphims are an order of angels in closest proximity to God in heaven.

Seraphims literally means "burning ones" in the Hebrew (Sarap, 'to burn'). A word of the same spelling is used of snakes (e.g. Isaiah 30v6), misleading some to think them serpent-guardians. The word 'serapim' Isaiah uses has no definite article; it is a description not a title. Note also how their ministry to Isaiah involves 'burning'. [2]
Seraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim)

And remember these words of Christ:
Matthew 22 30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Don't be scared. When we go to heaven we will be in God's fire but we won't be consumed:
Exodus 3 2 And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt.

It seems to me that Scripture is telling us that the Consuming Fire of God is Heaven.

Psalm 18 7 His going out is from the end of heaven, And his circuit even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide himself from his heat.

Exodus 24 17 And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like a burning fire upon the top of the mount, in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Matthew 3 11 I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Acts 2 1 And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

Isaias 6 6 And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Yessir! I can't wait to be touched by God's cleansing fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

As I understand it, seraphims are an order of angels in closest proximity to God in heaven.

Stay on topic - we are not discussing seraphims.

Stay on topic - we are not discussing seraphims.

We're discussing how hot is heaven. If the angels in heaven are described as burning ones (i.e. Seraphims), then it must be pretty hot.

We're discussing how hot is heaven. If the angels in heaven are described as burning ones (i.e. Seraphims), then it must be pretty hot.

Stay on topic. The names of angels have nothing to do with whether heaven is a place of everlasting fire.

Oh my brain is beginning to hurt!!

Consuming fire is not literal it is figurative and what does it have to do with angels??

Stay on topic.

You brought up the topic of God's consuming fire. Go back and read the messages.


The names of angels have nothing to do with whether heaven is a place of everlasting fire.

The names of angels are a description. The Seraphims are the burning ones because of their proximity to God.

oh my brain is beginning to hurt!!!

Consuming fire is not literal it is figurative and what does it have to do with angels???

The Seraphim are thus named because they are the burning ones. Since they are also the angels closest in proximity to God, I infer from their name that they are thus named because of their proximity to the Consuming Fire.

So if it is burning in hell so we want to avoid that then what is the difference of being in heaven to 'escape' the fire? We haven't escaped fire then have we?

What MAKES you think consuming fire is literal instead of figurative?

You brought up the topic of God's consuming fire. Go back and read the messages.

Actually, no. I mentioned the heresy of the Mormon teaching of heaven being "everlasting burnings" in response to one of saintjoan's messages. You then brought up the mention of God as a consuming fire, which refers to how He destroys those who are enemies of Him.

And yet you seem to think that is where you are going.

oh my brain is beginning to hurt!!!

Consuming fire is not literal it is figurative and what does it have to do with angels???

I sympathize. De Maria does seem to go off on unrelated tangents.

Actually, no. I mentioned the heresy of the Mormon teaching of heaven being "everlasting burnings" in response to one of saintjoan's messages. You then brought up the mention of God as a consuming fire, which refers to how He destroys those who are enemies of Him.

And yet you seem to think that is where you are going.

I see. When I bring up the Seraphim, I'm going off topic.

When you bring up Mormon teaching, you don't go off topic.

Hmmm? Interesting sense of justice.

I see. When I bring up the Seraphim, I'm going off topic.

When you bring up Mormon teaching, you don't go off topic.

Hmmm? Interesting sense of justice.

The difference is that I was simply indicating that the Roman catholic teaching quoted by saintjoan sounded like the Mormon teaching that heaven was like hell (everlasting burnings).

That has nothing to do with angels.

So if it is burning in hell so we want to avoid that then what is the difference of being in heaven to 'escape' the fire? We haven't escaped fire then have we?

What MAKES you think consuming fire is literal instead of figurative?

Simple.

When the fire appeared in the bush, it was not consumed. When the tongues of fire rested on the Apostles they were not burned.

Obviously, putting on the armor of Christ protects us from being burned by the Consuming Fire.

But what makes you think that the Consuming Fire is figurative? Does Scripture say that God is LIKE a consuming fire? Or does it say that God IS a Consuming Fire?

Deuteronomy 4 24 Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Simple.

When the fire appeared in the bush, it was not consumed. When the tongues of fire rested on the Apostles they were not burned.

Obviously, putting on the armor of Christ protects us from being burned by the Consuming Fire.

But what makes you think that the Consuming Fire is figurative? Does Scripture say that God is LIKE a consuming fire? Or does it say that God IS a Consuming Fire?

Deuteronomy 4 24 Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

DM,

You said that this is the fire in heaven that you will be in - everlasting burnings and yet scripture speaks of the "Consuming Fire" as indicative of how God destroys His enemies.

Deut 9:3
3 "Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
NKJV

Are you really claiming that this is the everlasting fire that you will be in after death?

But what makes you think that the Consuming Fire is figurative? Does Scripture say that God is LIKE a consuming fire? Or does it say that God IS a Consuming Fire?

So when the Bible says JESUS is the lamb of God Jesus is literally a Lamb because it does not say Jesus is LIKE a lamb?

So if it is burning in hell so we want to avoid that then what is the difference of being in heaven to 'escape' the fire? We haven't escaped fire then have we?

What MAKES you think consuming fire is literal instead of figurative?

saintjoan agrees: The fundamentalists would quote 2 Peter 2:20


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

? I don't see how the fundamentalists would compare 1 Peter 2:20 to the after life.
I can see how the Catholics would though.

De Maria,
Yes, you are right again.
God is our judge. We are not our own judge on anything divine including who goes to heaven.
For someone to claim that their salvation is sure is an attempt to take final judgment away from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria,
Yes, you are right again.
God is our judge. We are not our own judge on anything divine including who goes to heaven.
For someone to claim that their salvation is sure is an attempt to take final judgment away from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So, it appears that what you are saying is that even if God tells us that we have assurance, you are saying that God does not have that right.

1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

Interesting argument, but it appears to show a low view of God.

Tj3,
Not at all.
I believe what the bible says.
That God IS the final judge.

Tj3,
Not at all.
I believe what the bible says.
That God IS the final judge.

Then why do you deny what the Bible says - that gospel comes with assurance of salvation.

1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

God is the final judge and this is God's judgment. You say you believe it, and then you deny it.

Tj3,
No matter how you twist it, Tom Smith, the bible indicates that God Is the final judge. Only He will decide who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory, or hell.
Accept it and you will be far better off with the truth of the matter.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
No matter how you twist it, Tom Smith, the bible indicates that God Is the final judge. Only He will decide who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory, or hell.
Accept it and you will be far better off with the truth of the matter.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

I accept it. You seem to say that you when he makes his call, you don't accept it. Your approach is like saying "God can be God, but if I don't like what he say, I won't acknowledge it".

Once again, here is God's judgment as to whether we have assurance of salvation:

1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

I notice that you refuse to acknowledge this verse.

Fred,

I accept it. You seem to say that you when he makes his call, you don't accept it. Your approach is like saying "God can be God, but if I don't like what he say, I won't acknowledge it".

Once again, here is God's judgment as to whether we have assurance of salvation:

1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

I notice that you refuse to acknowledge this verse.



I think you are trying to shove a passage down Fred's throat that is only partially relevant. God is our final judge; can that be disputed? BUT we have a assurance of salvation if we KNOW and produce fruits of what Jesus and the Bible teaches; we can be confident with where we will spend eternity BUT God still remains the final judge of everyone! Would you not agree TJ3

2 Peter 1


1SIMON PETER, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2May grace (God's favor) and peace (which is [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201;&version=45;#fen-AMP-30480a)]perfect well-being, all necessary good, all spiritual prosperity, and freedom from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts) be multiplied to you in [the full, personal, [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201;&version=45;#fen-AMP-30480c)]precise, and correct] knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201;&version=45;#fen-AMP-30481d)]full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue).
4By means of these He has bestowed on us His precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through them you may escape [by flight] from the moral decay (rottenness and corruption) that is in the world because of covetousness (lust and greed), and become sharers (partakers) of the divine nature.
5For this very reason, [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201;&version=45;#fen-AMP-30483e)]adding your diligence [to the divine promises], employ every effort in [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201;&version=45;#fen-AMP-30483f)]exercising your faith to develop virtue (excellence, resolution, Christian energy), and in [exercising] virtue [develop] knowledge (intelligence),
6And in [exercising] knowledge [develop] self-control, and in [exercising] self-control [develop] steadfastness (patience, endurance), and in [exercising] steadfastness [develop] godliness (piety),
7And in [exercising] godliness [develop] brotherly affection, and in [exercising] brotherly affection [develop] Christian love.
[B]8For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201;&version=45;#fen-AMP-30486g)]full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
9For whoever lacks these qualities is blind, [[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201;&version=45;#fen-AMP-30487h)]spiritually] shortsighted, [i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201;&version=45;#fen-AMP-30487i)]seeing only what is near to him, and has become oblivious [to the fact] that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall.
11Thus there will be richly and abundantly provided for you entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I think you are trying to shove a passage down Fred's throat that is only partially relevant. God is our final judge; can that be disputed? BUT we have a assurance of salvation if we KNOW and produce fruits of what Jesus and the Bible teaches; we can be confident with where we will spend eternity BUT God still remains the final judge of everyone! Would you not agree TJ3

God is the judge and scripture not only says that we have assurance, but it say that God will judge based upon whether we have justification through Jesus. He says that if we have received Jesus as Saviour then we have the absolute assurance of salvation.

Fred says that we don't know. I disagree.

God is the judge and scripture not only says that we have assurance, but it say that God will judge based upon whether we have justification through Jesus. He says that if we have received Jesus as Saviour then we have the absolute assurance of salvation.

Fred says that we don't know. I disagree.


By you saying we "have the absolute assurance of salvation" assumes that God doesn't even need to be involved in the final judgement when we die. What about the Bible relaying that there are certain people that will claim to heal, prophesy in Jesus name, and cast out demons but in the end He will "I have never known you"

I don't think we need to do good works in order to be saved, I believe that salvation is a gift that we except and through that gift are saved BUT we must live a life congurant with that belief we must show the fruits of personally knowing Jesus and perserve to win the race and grow to be more like Jesus each day. In my opinion we can't just accept Jesus as saviour and then continuing living as we have because of an "absolute assurance of salvation"

Am I understanding your position correctly?

By you saying we "have the absolute assurance of salvation" assumes that God doesn't even need to be involved in the final judgement when we die.

How can one be saved if God has not been involved?


What about the Bible relaying that there are certain people that will claim to heal, prophesy in Jesus name, and cast out demons but in the end He will "I have never known you"

Note that God said that He never knew them (i.e. never saved).


In my opinion we can't just accept Jesus as saviour and then continuing living as we have because of an "absolute assurance of salvation'

No one that I saw has said that and I most certainly never said it, suggested it, nor do I believe it. In fact, if you have been reading my posts, I explained that unless one exhibits faithfulness, we have reason to question their faith.

This is, however, much different than saying that we have no assurance, because God made promises in scripture and assurance does not come with those promises (as scriptures says it does), then that is in effect a denial of God's word and God's faithfulness.

mountain_man,
I agree with you.
God was, is and will be the final judge of every one of us.
That is why the bibles that we must work out out salvation with fear and trembling and HOPE for our salvation.
Romans 12: 24. In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping, nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible.
25. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.
Roams 12: 11. In the service of the Lord, work not halfheartedly but with conscientiousness and an eager spirit.
12. Be joyful in hope, persevere in hardship; keep praying regularly;
13. Share with any of God's holy people who are in need; look for opportunities to be hospitable.
Gal 5: 5. We are led by the Spirit to wait in the confident hope of saving justice through faith,
Col 1: 23. As long as you persevere and stand firm on the solid base of the faith, never letting yourselves drift away from the hope promised by the gospel, which you have heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become the servant.
1 Thes 5: 8. but we belong to the day and we should be sober; let us put on faith and love for a breastplate, and the hope of salvation for a helmet.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

mountain_man,
I agree with you.
God was, is and will be the final judge of each and every one of us.

And when God judges those who are saved, He does not see what we have done, but rather sees the righteousness of Him who has saved us:

Rom 4:21-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

I have His righteousness imputed to me, and I am justified through His sacrifice on the cross. What does God say about that?

John 6:37-38
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
NKJV

And it is because of that we can, as scripture tells us, have absolute assurance of salvation:

1 Thess 1:5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake
NKJV

I trust God. I trust God's gospel. I trust the promises of God. I trust that the sacrifice on the cross is sufficient.

Those who have received the Holy Spirit and have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them should have no doubt of salvation and should have absolute assurance in the faithfulness of God and His promises. We need not fear that His judgment will turn against us if we have received the true gospel.

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D
OK I was raised as a baptist so I always believed once saved always saved - then I became church of christ and realised that yes you can loose your salvation. It is not like GOD just forgets about you!! Because he doesn't!! I believe you can fall away from GOD and into sin - everyone does it and no one is perfect!! You just have to have the strength to come back to him!! And admit you were wrong!! And be forgiven!! The only way you can loose your salvation is if you really fall away from him and don't come back and just really don't listen to anyone that is trying to help you!! GOD BLESS!!

ok i was raised as a baptist so i always believed once saved always saved - then i became church of christ and realised that yes you can loose your salvation.

It is not a case of "losing your salvation" vs "once saved always saved".

Scripture is clear that you can reject your salvation willingly, but nowhere does it allow us to simply lose our salvation without making a decision to turn away from it. In fact scripture explicitly states the opposite.

Can You Explain That For Me A Little More!!

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D
How can anyone know anything?Isn't knowledge an assumption we use to move through the world?Does the world respond to what you expect from her and offer you a reflection?Do I know anything?We seem to know to eat, breathe, you MUST know something just for yourself.I DO know that to be pessemistic probably doesn't help so maybe act like a god and even be good?You'll be right... I think

Can You Explain That For Me A Little More!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scripture tells us that we have assurance of salvation. It tells us that no one can snatch us from His hand. Therefore we are secure in our salvation and cannot lose it.

Scripture is also clear that we can reject His salvation, or willfully choose to turn away from God. Though we cannot just 'lose" it, we can knowingly and willfully turn away from it.

geegi-babydoll,
You are right. The bible tells us several way a person can lose their salvation as I outlined in my earlier post of this subject,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

geegi-babydoll,
You are right. The bible tells us several way a person can lose their salvation as I outlined in my earlier post of this subject,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

You have showed ways that people can willfully reject salvation, but I am still waiting for a single scripture based example of where one can "lose" salvation.

Tj3,
Please read my earlier post on this subject.
But in short just one of the ways a person can lose their salvation is this.
If a person who supposedly has been salved for so reason refuses to forgive others, then that person will NOT be forgiven.
I personally know such a person who has passed away and I do pray that on her death bed she did forgive.
If your sins are not fogiven you are not pure and therefore not allowed into heaven.
Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either.
Another way to lose it is in this case.
A person who had been saved for some reason sins against the Holy Spirit.
Jesus tells us that such a sin will Not be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Scripture is also clear that we can reject His salvation, or willfully choose to turn away from God. Though we cannot just 'lose" it, we can knowingly and willfully turn away from it.
Amen... and this leads me to believe the confusion about this is mainly a matter of "language"... as I doubt anyone other than the most rabid OSAS'er would claim that we can't even turn away from our salvation.

But in short just one of the ways a person can lose their salvation is this. If a person who supposedly has been salved for so reason refuses to forgive others, then that person will NOT be forgiven.

Fred, this passage was not aimed at Christians, but at the multitudes. This is not to say that we who are saved do not need to forgive - we do - but this does not prove that one can lose their salvation.


Another way to lose it is in this case. A person who had been saved for some reason sins against the Holy Spirit.

This refers specifically to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is something done willingly, therefore this would be turning against the Holy Spirit, not losing your salvation.


Jesus tells us that such a sin will Not be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)[/QUOTE]

Tj3,
Never-the-less regarding both cases I mentioned, from my point, of view salvation was lost.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Never-the-less regarding both cases I mentioned, from my point, of view salvation was lost.


I acknowledge that these represent your opinion.

Tj3,
Thank you.
I do the same with your opinions.
Fred

Tj3,
Thank you.
I do the same with your opinions.
Fred

You mean the quotes that I give validating my views with scripture?

That is kind of you to suggest that my opinions are so well aligned with scripture.

Tj3,
Never mine, Tom.
You use pits an pieces scripture in attempt to support what you want to believe.
I use all of the bible not just bits and pieces.

Tj3,
Never mine, Tom.
You use pits an pieces scripture in attempt to support what you want to believe.
I use all of the bible not just bits and pieces.

But, Fred, I do use scripture (and I do use all of the Bible but I do not intend to copy and paste the whole thing here), and I use it in context. I do not copy and paste references from someone else's website (as you have), but rather I study the Bible for myself.

Tj3,
You have proven to me and others that when you are TRYING to prove that the bible says what you want it to you use picky choosey Scripture to prove it and ignore what other verses say.
Or you interpret Scripture your personal way.
So it is with you.

Tj3,
You have proven to me and others that when you are TRYING to prove that the bible says what you want it to you use picky choosey Scripture to prove it and ignore what other verses say.
Or you interpret Scripture your personal way.
So it is with you.

False accusations and ad hominems do not make for a sound argument.

This refers specifically to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is something done willingly, therefore this would be turning against the Holy Spirit, not losing your salvation.



Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What if you refuse to be baptised, or think it is not necessary to be baptised. I have viewed the choice of some that feel it is not necessary. Would it be wise not to receive this gift of The Holy Spirit from baptism?

And what was that unforgivable sin in Luke 12:10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


What does scripture say about receiving the Holy Spirit?

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

Rom 8:9-11
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of
righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He
who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit
who dwells in you.
NKJV

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if
children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him,
that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

2 Cor 1:21-23
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also
has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
NKJV

So scripture says that those who believe will receive the Holy Spirit. But the world (unsaved) will not receive the Holy Spirit:

John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor
knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

How do we receive the Holy Spirit according to scripture? Let's look back at the first verse that we referenced which shows that the Holy Spirit indwells believer, John 7:39:

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

This says that the Spirit is given to all who believe. Scripture is also clear that the Spirit comes by faith and not by works:

Gal 3:5-6
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV

In summary, the Holy Spirit comes to those who believe and only those who believe. We in fact have a specific example given in scripture which is specific that the Holy Spirit is given after belief and before water baptism:

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard
the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit
NKJV

Note that the Holy Spirit fell upon them as they heard the word. We have already seen that the Holy Spirit only comes upon those who believe, so we know that they believed. But notice that it was after that, that they received water baptism. We therefore know from specific and clear teaching in God's word that water baptism is not a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit.

What about remission of sins? Doesn't this verse say that water baptism is required for remission of sins? Using the same approach as we did previously, let's examine what scripture says about the requirements for our sins to be remitted.

Matt 26:27-29
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of
sins.
NKJV

Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding
of blood there is no remission.
NKJV

Luke 24:46-47
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it wasnecessary for the Christ to
suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
NKJV

Acts 10:43
43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will
receive remission of sins."
NKJV

Matt 26:28
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of
sins.
NKJV

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. Nowhere in scripture will you find any statement which says the same about water. It is only through the blood of Jesus shed on the cross that we are saved.

The first problem in understanding this verse comes if we read it by itself and not in the context of the whole of scripture. Let's start with the local context.

What is the topic that Peter is speaking about? If you look earlier in the passage, Peter is preaching Jesus, preaching about Jesus death and resurrection on the cross, and indeed preached salvation though believing Christ, for example:

Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
NKJV

And we have already seen that the larger context of scripture does not agree with the interpretation that the Holy Spirit and salvation requires water baptism. And yet that is what this verse appears to say when read by itself. How can that be? It has to do with the grammatic structure of the sentence.

Let's look at a different example - If I told you that I took an aspirin for a headache, would it mean that I cannot have the headache without the aspirin? Of course not! If aspirin gave headaches, the company selling aspirins would be bankrupt. We take aspirin because we have a headache, not to get the headache.

Likewise, we are baptized, not to receive salvation, have our sins remitted and to receive the Holy Spirit, but, as we saw in Acts 10:47, because it has already occurred. The act of baptism is our response to have received salvation.

If we look at the original Koine Greek in which this passage was written, the word for is the Greek word “eis”. This word has a wide range of meanings and could carry with it the intent of either for, as Acts 2:38 is too often interpreted, or it could carry the intent of “because of”, which would make Acts 2:38 consistent with the rest of scripture. We have many passages in scripture where “eis” carries the intent or concept of “because of”, for example:

Matt 12:41
41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it,
because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is
here.
NKJV

The word "at" is eis. Now did they repent so that they would have the preaching of Jonah? Or is it the other way around?

Rom 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
NKJV

Were we baptized to cause His death?

Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto (eis) repentance, but He who is coming after me is
mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy
Spirit and fire. NKJV

Were they baptized with water to get repentance or because they repented?

The point is that the intent of “because of” is commonly used both in English and in Koine Greek, and that is the only sense in which the word “eis” can be understood in the context of scripture for it to be consistent with the rest of scripture. With that in mind, let's have another look at Acts 2:38:

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

So now understanding that the intent of “eis” in context is “because of”, we could read this to say:

“Repent, and then be baptized because you have received remission of sins and the Holy Spirit.”

So far I have not dealt with the reference to repentance, but repentance is used almost
interchangeably in scripture with believing in Christ when salvation is being discussed and for good reason – when one comes to Christ, one must repent. Let's look at some verses on repentance:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the
kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand.
Repent, and believe in the gospel."
NKJV

Mark 6:11-13
12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many
demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.NKJV

Luke 13:2-4
3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.NKJV

Acts 3:19-22
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of
refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of
restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since
the world began.
NKJV

Acts 8:21-23
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your
heart may be forgiven you.
NKJV

None of these even suggests or mentions baptism as essential for salvation.

What if someone thinks that it is unnecessary or refused? It may be a sin, but if you point the finger at those who sin in one way, be careful:

Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV

We have all sinned. If sin keeps us from being saved, then we are all without hope.

What if you refuse to be baptised, or think it is not necessary to be baptised. I have viewed the choice of some that feel it is not necessary. Would it be wise not to receive this gift of The Holy Spirit from baptism?

Do you think that obedience (works) is necessary for salvation? We are also commanded not to sin in any of the numerous ways that we can sin. Is that not also disobedience? Yet which of these sins, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not covered by the blood that Jesus shed on the cross?

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

If we say that obedience is necessary, then you are condemned under the law. If that were the case we would all be going to hell because none of us have perfectly obeyed His
commandments. That is the essence of the gospel. Because through sin, we all condemned ourselves to hell and had no means by which to pay the penalty for sin, Jesus came to earth as a man to die on the cross and paid the price for us.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the
Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

God understands that we as humans will sin - that's why He offers us grace. Of course none of us have perfectly obeyed his commands and God knows this and he tells us through Paul. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. If it were possible for us to live perfect lives there would be no need for Him to offer us grace. We are saved by grace, but grace is not the only thing that saves us as you seem to believe.

Keep in mind that if you fail on one part of the law (i.e. baptism), then you are guilty of all of the law:

James 2:9-11
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
NKJV

Be careful.


And what was that unforgivable sin in Luke 12:10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

What has this to do with baptism? And what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? We are told in the context:

Matt 12:32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

It is speaking blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Note that blasphemy against Jesus can be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit Spirit.

What does scripture say about receiving the Holy Spirit?

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV


Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost [Gifts] not many days hence.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [The Giver] is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
Living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
Would receive; for the Holy Spirit [Gifts] was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.



Rom 8:9-11
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of
righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He
who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit
who dwells in you.
NKJV


KJV
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,[new nature] if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of His. But if Messiah in you, the body [indeed] is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies also by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.




Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if
children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him,
that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself [The Holy Spirit] beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, heirs also; heirs[indeed] of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, in order that we may be glorified together with Him also.
KJV





[I]Gal 3:5-6
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV

[B]Gal 3:5-6 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit,[the new nature] and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. KJV





Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard
the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit
NKJV



Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.And they of the circumcision[Jews] which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry[continue] certain days.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost[ 1 Cor 12: 4-11] fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like free gift [Cp2:38 and John 4:10] as He did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Tj3 , We have some differences and if you view where I put refer to either scripture or word meaning, it will note the reasoning behind each difference that I give. I really did not have enough time available to do more at this time.

Tj3 , We have some differences and if you view where I put refer to either scripture or word meaning, it will note the reasoning behind each difference that I give. I really did not have enough time available to do more at this time.

sndbay,

I looked these over, and I would suggest that every one agrees with the position that I stated when read in context. If you feel otherwise, please feel free to explain your reasoning and we can discuss.

sndbay,

I looked these over, and I would suggest that each and every one agrees with the position that I stated when read in context. If you feel otherwise, please feel free to explain your reasoning and we can discuss.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [The Giver] is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Trusting in what is written, that power given through the Holy Spirit would come. This power is not what is given to all.
What gifts of the Holy Spirit is given, are of His choice to all of us. Just to assume it is The Holy Spirit in His self is not what can be assumed. And that is why reading more then one verse is important.

What do you assume the gift of The Holy Spirit in baptism gives? Are we all children of God?

Do you think that obedience (works) is necessary for salvation? We are also commanded not to sin in any of the numerous ways that we can sin. Is that not also disobedience? Yet which of these sins, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not covered by the blood that Jesus shed on the cross?

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

If we say that obedience is necessary, then you are condemned under the law. If that were the case we would all be going to hell because none of us have perfectly obeyed His
commandments. That is the essence of the gospel. Because through sin, we all condemned ourselves to hell and had no means by which to pay the penalty for sin, Jesus came to earth as a man to die on the cross and paid the price for us.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the
Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

God understands that we as humans will sin - that's why He offers us grace. Of course none of us have perfectly obeyed his commands and God knows this and he tells us through Paul. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. If it were possible for us to live perfect lives there would be no need for Him to offer us grace. We are saved by grace, but grace is not the only thing that saves us as you seem to believe.

Keep in mind that if you fail on one part of the law (i.e. baptism), then you are guilty of all of the law:

James 2:9-11
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
NKJV

Be careful.



What has this to do with baptism? And what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? We are told in the context:

Matt 12:32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

It is speaking blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Note that blasphemy against Jesus can be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit Spirit.

Ask I can be quoted as posting, that (we) believe in Jesus. That did include you and myself. The gift we are given in grace [love] is Jesus. A free gift [Romans 5:18] The gift of rightousness [ Romans 5:17] JESUS a gift of GOD [John 4:10]

Gifts are like precious stones [Proverbs 17:8]

Everyone given proper gifts [ 1 Cr 7:7 ]

Giving according to the measure and of the gift, Christ [Eph 4:7]

Unity of Faith achieved [ Eph 4:13]

What then can cause lose of these gifts? That which is found [Hebrews 6:4]

sndbay
Yes a person who once had it CAN lose their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [The Giver] is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

No one is arguingb against the gifts of the Holy Spirit.


Trusting in what is written, that power given through the Holy Spirit would come. This power is not what is given to all.

Right - only to those who are saved.


What gifts of the Holy Spirit is given, are of His choice to all of us.

Agreed.


Just to assume it is The Holy Spirit in His self is not what can be assumed. And that is why reading more then one verse is important.

It is not clear what you are trying to say here.


What do you assume the gift of The Holy Spirit in baptism gives? Are we all children of God?

Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit is gioven when a person believes, whether baptized or not.

Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit is gioven when a person believes, whether baptized or not.

Scripture is clear to say we are to be baptised.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

Can a man decide not to do what God has ordained [come forth] to be done?

Are we to question God?

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Scripture is clear to say we are to be baptised.

Agreed. But it does not say that it is essential for salvation.

Agreed. But it does not say that it is essential for salvation.

Does this sound essential? Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ


The Essential Witness

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. 7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Does this sound essential? Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

The question here is what is the verse referring to by baptism?

Col 2:11-13
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
NKJV

Were you actually buried with Jesus? Or is baptism symbolic of that burial?

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

There is one essential baptism. Is it baptism in water or baptism in the Holy Spirit, which all who believe receive?

The question here is what is the verse referring to by baptism?

Col 2:11-13
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
NKJV

Were you actually buried with Jesus? Or is baptism symbolic of that burial?

Strong concordance refer: baptisma 908 Greek bä'p-tē-smä

1) immersion, submersion
a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.

In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907). baptizō




Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

There is one essential baptism. Is it baptism in water or baptism in the Holy Spirit, which all who believe receive?

It clearly states For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Each are, yet one...Each their own ordained order you could say.

In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907).

You seem to be dancing around my question, but you are not dealing with it.


It clearly states For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Each are, yet one... Each their own ordained order you could say.

God does not require ordination, but again you are not addressing the points that I raised. And it is not clear what point you are trying to make.

Interesting that the Bible can't seem to speak for itself with you two... ;)

Interesting that the Bible can't seem to speak for itself with you two..... ;)

The Bible is clear. It is not clear the point that sndbay is trying to make.

The Bible is clear. It is not clear the point that sndbay is trying to make.

Tj3, I do apologize if it is me you don't understand. But for the choice within all my mind and all my heart which is contained in faith, belief , and love of "The Word" = "Jesus" I am thankful that God has revealed what is there and it is essential to me. I trust God's Will is done for each of us.

I have tried to explain my belief but perhaps I depend on scripture more then my own interperation when posting. Naturally because I know that God does the revealing. And I accept ownership of my belief, and feel everyone else has their own choices to make.

Tj3, I do apologize if it is me you don't understand. But for the choice within all my mind and all my heart which is contained in faith, belief , and love of "The Word" = "Jesus" I am thankful that God has revealed what is there and it is essential to me. I trust God's Will is done for each of us.

I have tried to explain my belief but perhaps I depend on scripture more then my own interperation when posting. Naturally because I know that God does the revealing. And I accept ownership of my belief, and feel everyone else has their own choices to make.


It is fine to depend upon scripture, but it is not clear in many cases why you are posting the scripture. I read the scripture and I agree with what it says, but presumably there is a reason why you chose those particular passages, and that is what is not always obvious. Presumably these were not just passages randmoly chosen.

ScottRC,
Yes it does seem that the bible does not speak for itself for some people.
Or they confuse the meaning of various passages with each other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ScottRC,
Yes it does seem that the bible does not speak for itself for some people.
Or they confuse the meaning of various passages with each other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, some people choose to interpret for themselves, or allow their church to interpret for them.

The hardest thing about this question is that it almost has to assume that God experiences time in the same way that we do. (As a 2 dimensional picture moves in a 3d world so do we as 3d creatures move in a 4D universe)

Looking at God from a Biblical perspective we see a huge Omnipresence being that is present in every place and at any and every time; unbounded in the universe. It is the concept of the ability to be everywhere at any point in time simultaneously

If I handed you a picture and asked if the person was smiling you could tell me yes or no just by looking at the picture. Imagine, if you will, being able to look at time (as a whole) as a single snap shot. Obviously we can’t do that but by comparing the lower dimensions to the higher dimensions we begin to get a faint idea. (A video that helped me: Imagining the Tenth Dimension - A Book by Rob Bryanton (http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php))

To God time is just a snapshot. Everything there, black and white, easy to interpret and understand.
1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."

Tj3,
Wrong again, I do not interpret the bible for myself, but OBVIOUSLY you do!!
When it comes to my belief in The Church, I believe it and trust it far more than I do you because Jesus established it and the Holy Spirit has been guiding it for 2000 years.
In the past I have told you many times why I do not trust you.

Tj3,
Wrong again, I do not interpret the bible for myself, but OBVIOUSLY you do!!!
When it comes to my belief in The Church, I believe it and trust it far more than I do you because Jesus established it and the Holy Spirit has been guiding it for 2000 years.

Why would Jesus come to earth in the flesh in the 1st century to establish a denomination in the 4th?

Tj3.
Jesus did not establish a denomination. He established The Church which today IS the Catholic Church. It was not a denomination it was ans is the Mother Church. Everyone knows that the denominations slit from the other Church after the reformation.
Your silly argument about a denomination is moot, without validity, or value and is therefore useless.

Tj3.
Jesus did not establish a denomination.

That is what I keep telling you. He established the body of Christ, not a denomination.

BUt then you go and tell me that he established your denomination.


He established The Church which today IS the Catholic Church.

You did not answer my question about why Jesus would wait until the 4th century to establish his denomination.

That is what I keep telling you. He established the body of Christ, not a denomination.
Aren't all denominations part of that body of Christ?

Aren't all denominations part of that body of Christ?

No denominations are. Only individuals.

1 Cor 12:27-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

These individuals may be in a variety of denominations, but no denominations are members of the body of Christ.

No denominations are. Only individuals.
Okey dokey...

Tj3,
Please note that the person Jesus was talking to were the first members of The Church He called My Church.
As the bible tells us Jesus appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.
I believe that all true Christians are a part of the body of Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Please note that the person Jesus was talking to were the first members of The Church He called My Church.

The body of Christ, not any denomination, not even yours, but people who would be the first to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.


As the bible tells us Jesus appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.

Maybe your Bible, but not the NT that was written in the 1st century.

Tj3,
Again that is your opinion.
Again I disagree.
Is that OK with you?
Fred

Tj3,
Again that is your opinion.
Again I disagree.
Is that OK with you?
Fred

You can certainly believe what you wish Fred. I would prefer to discuss what scripture says with you, but if you prefer to believe what your denomination says, that is fine with me.

Tj3,
I believed first what the bible says that is why I became a Catholic.
I gave up being a Catholic basher many years ago.
You know that because I have told you that several time over the last several years.
Fred

Tj3,
I believed first what the bible says that is why I became a Catholic.

Do you believe it when scripture says we are saved by faith without works?

Tj3,
I believe what the bible says, "Faith without works is dead."
Fred

Do you believe it when scripture says we are saved by faith without works?
OOOH can I play too!

I do!

I'm saved by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ... how about you?:D

ScottRC,
I believe the same.
Fred

Tj3,
I believe what the bible says, "Faith without works is dead."
Fred

But the works plays NO part in our salvation. The Bible says so.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Do you believe this part of the Bible?

But let us not neglect to know all scripture written

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. KJV

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. KJV

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked. KJV

1 John 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.KJV

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. KJV

And Does Include Believing The Truth

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Hebrews 10: 16- 17 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the Saviour of the body

1 Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Tj3,
Eph 2 8-19 simply says that a person can not work their way to heaven on must have faith.
There are many verses in the gospels that speak of the works on must do in addition to faith.
So I do believe in the verse you mentions AND all the others which speak of faith AND works.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Eph 2 8-19 simply says that a person can not work their way to heaven on must have faith.
There are many verses in the gospels that speak of the works on must do in addition to faith.
So I do believe in the verse you mentions AND all the others which speak of faith AND works.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So you do not believe what Ephesians says:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

It says NOT of works. That means NO works. Salvation does not have anything to do with works. This is a mis-understanding caused by those who read the English out of context.

In Greek, the word faith is the same as faithfulness. In contrast to your perspective which tries to put one part of scripture at odds with another, if we look at the whole context of scripture, and especially in the context of how the original language reads, we can see that a man who is faithfulness will show that faithfulness in works. Works follow salvation. Nowhere in scripture does it even suggest that works are necessary for salvation or can in any way aid salvation.

Tj3,
I said I believe all of the bible.
Please accept that.
Why must I tell you that over and over?
Fred

Our path in life as servants to Our Father . 1. Knowing [Truth] that is Our Father, 2. Baptism [Gifted The Holy Ghost ], and to die with Christ. The death of our sins, thus alive in Christ. 3.God's Grace [ Christ] to believe in Him, and to beleive He raised to [ New Life] in Heaven and Promise of His return.

Until His return we are to live righteously, existing more righteous then those exampled in the bible.

1. Who is Truth? Our Father "ONE"
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

2. Baptism=The Holy Ghost & Dead with Christ
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. Grace New Life, Alive
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

Essential to Salvation as a Servant

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Full Well Knowing
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Tj3,
I said I believe all of the bible.
Please accept that.
Why must I tell you that over and over?
Fred

Because you keep claiming a works based gospel which the Bible says is wrong.

Because you keep claiming a works based gospel which the Bible says is wrong.

The Gospel says that faith is work:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Jesus says that we must work to be saved:

Matt 25 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

The epistles say the same:
Romans 2 5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.

6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Hebrews 12 28 Therefore receiving an immoveable kingdom, we have grace; whereby let us serve, pleasing God, with fear and reverence. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

So it is you TJ who are violating Scripture. Arcura is correct.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Gospel says that faith is work:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Perhaps you missed the words "of God".


Jesus says that we must work to be saved:

This verse said nothing about working to be saved.


The epistles say the same:[I]

Nor those verses. You are mixing up rewards, and faithfulness after salvation with the requirements for salvation.

Show me a single verse which says that works are essential for salvation.

Perhaps you missed the words "of God".

Lets review the entire verse with context so you can see how you are misunderstanding what Jesus said:

The Jews asked, (follow the bold letters):

John 6 28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

And Jesus answered:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Obviously then, the Jews wanted to know, what does God want us to do. And Jesus answered God wants you to believe in me. Now, believing in Jesus is the definition of faith in Jesus. So faith is a work.


This verse said nothing about working to be saved.

Sure it does. It outlines what you must do to attain glory and the verse following outlines that if you don't do that, you will be condemned. So, add two and two together.


Nor those verses. You are mixing up rewards, and faithfulness after salvation with the requirements for salvation.

No I'm not. Read the words yourself:

Romans 2 5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.

This says that if one is impenitent, he stores up wrath on the day of judgement.

Since you don't believe in Purgatory, this means that individual is going to hell.

6 [B]Who will render to every man according to his works.

This further explains why that individual is going to hell. Because God will render to every man according to his works. That means if one does good, one goes to heaven. If one does evil, one goes to hell.

7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work,seek glory and honour and incorruption,

Now pay attention. If we do good because we seek to go to heaven we will be rewarded with what?

eternal life:

If you said "eternal life", you get the greenie.

Now, stay focused.

8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

What do those receive who work evil as described in verse 8?

9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil,

Tribulation and anguish. Since you don't believe in Purgatory, that means that those who work evil will go to hell.

I don't see how it could be more plainly explained.

of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But I guess just to make certain, St. Paul repeats it.


Show me a single verse which says that works are essential for salvation.

Read Romans 2 verse 8 - 10 above.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Lets review the entire verse with context so you can see how you are misunderstanding what Jesus said:

The Jews asked, (follow the bold letters):

John 6 28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

And Jesus answered:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Obviously then, the Jews wanted to know, what does God want us to do. And Jesus answered God wants you to believe in me. Now, believing in Jesus is the definition of faith in Jesus. So faith is a work.

I am amazed at how you managed to manipulate that to suggest that what scripture says is a work of God, is, in your view a work of man.

De Maria,
I seriously fear that Tj3 will never see that "faith without works is dead", useless or that we MUST "WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria,
I seriously fear that Tj3 will never see that "faith without works is dead", useless or that we MUST "WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

We've been through this before. In Greek, faith and faithfulness are one and the same (the same word even). If you have no works to show, then are you being faithful?

And how would an unbeliever be faithful to God? Scripture says that an unbeliever cannot be faithful. Therefore works have no merit for an unbeliever. The works therefore are an indicator of our faithfulness to our Saviour.

I note that you can never harmonize faith without works is dead with "not of works lest any man should boast", and yet reading it with this understanding of Greek, the harmonize nicely.

Tj3,
Yes we have been through that before and I have told you that I will believe the translations in the best versions of the bible, not yours translation versions.
Fred

saintjoan
Your tongue in cheek statement is not well take or acurate.
The Catholic Church very much does believe in and trust the bible.
There teachings and writings and The Catechism of The Catholic Church proves that.
After all The Catholic Church promulgated the bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It knows if far better and any other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So you do not believe what Ephesians says:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

It says NOT of works. That means NO works. Salvation does not have anything to do with works. This is a mis-understanding caused by those who read the English out of context.



Tj3, your faith is strong..

Pray Daily
Psalms 17: 6 I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech. Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust [in Thee], from those that rise up against them. Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Daily we need Our Heaven Father to protect us from falling to sin

Psalms 17:4-5 Concerning the works of men, by the word of Thy lips, I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. Hold up my goings in thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.

We have defence against daily sin

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[Wherefore?] Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and [rock of offence:] and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

The Marking of the Devil
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the [devils also believe,] and tremble.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

This is Everyone's Question..Is faith without works dead?

The scriptures in James 20 go on to say how Abraham was save by his works that were done by faith and how this example shows that works made faith perfect. James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works [a man is justified, and not by faith only.]

Good Day to you

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Detail this scripture down step by step.

1. By Grace you are saved..

2. Not of yourself..

3. It is a Gift of God

4. Not given of works. (So that a man could boast.)

This details that works will not give you Grace.. It does not come of man.. But it comes of God's love.

Tj3,
Yes we have been through that before and I have told you that I will believe the translations in the best versions of the bible, not yours translation versions.
Fred

Fred,

I appreciate the compliment, but I did not translate the Bible. On the other hand, you could always go to the Greek to validate what you claim to be a better translation as I do.

Jesus clarifies this question when he stated,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me has temporary life. You see if you have eternal life and loose it, then it cannot be eternal.

Actually if you believe what is written in the Bible, then you would have full assurance of eternal life.

Not if you understand the Bible. Here is what St. Paul says:
Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Hebrews 12 28 Therefore receiving an immoveable kingdom, we have grace; whereby let us serve, pleasing God, with fear and reverence. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And St. John would not contradict that idea because the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. So what does St. John mean?


1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

He means that you must truly believe. Not just claim to believe. This is not once saved always saved. Lets look a the first chapter of 1 John:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Notice all the "ifs". And lets just break down verse 6.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.

Obviously, it doesn't matter if we claim to know Jesus, what matters is how we live our life. So this is not what Protestants like saintjoan call ABSOLUTE assurance. It is conditional assurance as the Scripture's teach and as the Catholic Church teaches. Because ultimately we don't judge ourselves, it is God who judges us:

1 Corinthians 4 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self. 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord


Of course Bible believing Christians are wrong,

The Catholic Church is the true Bible believing Church. Those who teach Sola Scriptura twist the meaning of the Bible teach this man made doctrine. As has been proved before, Sola Scriptura says that the Bible is the sole source of doctrine. But the Bible does not teach that the Bible is the sole source of doctrine. Therefore the source for Sola Scriptura is not the Bible and that makes Sola Scriptura a false teaching.


For the church (Roman Catholic) teaches that those who believe what is written in the Bible concerning eternal life are anathama.

That's a blatant lie. The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is inerrant because it contains the Word of God.


And we all know the Roman Catholic Church is to be trusted more than God's Holy Word.

Not true. The Catholic Church teaches the Word of God.

The Catholic Church does teach that people like saintjoan who contradict Church teaching are to be avoided however. St. Paul puts it like this:

Galatians 1 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Bible is CLEAR on this...IF you are a Blood bought, born again Christian, IN CHRIST, CHRIST IN YOU, sealed with the HOlY SPIRIT of promise, there is NOTHING and I mean NOTHING that can cause you to LOSE your salvation! Period...

I will ONLY add this....i said ...IF!


What IF you were born again , but upon further inspection you changed your mind and decided that christianity was too fear/threat based, exclusive, and that Gods acceptance of spending eternity with him was "conditional?" This still won't cause you to lose your salvation??

Tj3,
We have discussed this on other boards so why are you bringing it up again here if not to cause trouble.
God has promised assured salvation (know-so-salvation) IF we do certain things an having faith is but one of them. So the bible says.
That is what I believe; the bible.
And I WILL NOT discuss it further with YOU.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


That does not sound like "peace and kindness" Fred. Sounds kind of mean and hateful.:(

That does not sound like "peace and kindness" Fred. Sounds kinda mean and hateful.:(

Sounds like you're baiting Christians. Christian baiters are reserved to the Religious Discussion boards. The Christian board is for Christians and people seeking Christian answers.

Bye!

Sounds like you're baiting Christians. Christian baiters are reserved to the Religious Discussion boards. The Christian board is for Christians and people seeking Christian answers.


It looked to me like he was making an observation. The boards are not reserved for Christians alone. Indeed, I would like to see both Christians and non-Christians willing to interact respectfully.

What IF you were born again , but upon further inspection you changed your mind and decided that christianity was too fear/threat based, exclusive, and that Gods acceptance of spending eternity with him was "conditional?" This still won't cause you to lose your salvation???

Scripture agrees that it is possible to walk away from your salvation, but it suggests that it may not be possible to come back again.

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

I doubt that there are many who do so. Many people who say that they are saved and turn away may not have been saved in the first place (Matt 7:21-23), and it is my opinion that the numbers who are truly saved and then wal;k away from it are few indeed.

It looked to me like he was making an observation. The boards are not reserved for Christians alone. Indeed, I would like to see both Christians and non-Christians willing to interact respectfully.

I would too. That is what the member Religious discussions are for.

On the other hand, I don't see any real interaction from this person. Just putting Christians. So I thought he/she might might need to be informed of the board ruling. Especially since I don't think it is posted.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I would too. That is what the member Religious discussions are for.

On the other hand, I don't see any real interaction from this person. Just putting Christians. So I thought he/she might might need to be informed of the board ruling. Especially since I don't think it is posted.


Try interacting with him and see.

cozyk,
I am not a mean and spiteful person, far from it.
I may sound that way to you and I'm sorry that you think that way.
When I am through discussing a subject I think it is fair and right to let the person know that rather leave them hanging wasting time making more post on the subject will will not be responded to.
From my point of view proving such information is a kind gesture.
It provides inforantion that saves the other person time and effort.
And I do sincerely wish for peace and kindness for all people here.
Fred (arcura)

We are saved by grace, not by works.
What then, if one turns back away from GOD to live in sin
with an unrepentant and unregenerate heart?


Look to what GOD says in his word:


From the Gospels
Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." ~ Note: Part of the meaning of the word saved, from the Greek word sozo, is to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgement. The word that Jesus Christ spoke will judge in the last day (John 12:48). This being saved is clearly conditional. We must endure to the end. To endure means to remain, not to recede or flee, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one's faith in Christ, to bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. It's the same word here: If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us - 2 Timothy 2:12. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can't get around the word of God here, He will deny us.
Matthew 24:24,25 - "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand." ~ Note: The word deceive also means to cause to stray, lead aside from the right way, to sever or fall away from the truth, to be led away into error and sin. That is definitely the loss of salvation because it means to be severed or fallen away from the truth. They will stray and be led aside from the right way. They will be led away into error and sin. We have no license to fall back into the bondage of sin again. Some people want to think this Scripture means that it is not possible when He said "if possible," but Christ would not have said this just to be playing games with us by there being no way it can happen. The word for beforehand also means to say before the event: prophecies. This was Christ telling us that it would happen. So don't be deceived that you can't be deceived, or then you may wind up one of those who do in fact get deceived.
Luke 12:45,46 - "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." ~ Note: Someone can be a servant of Christ then start the practice of sin again and not be ready for eternal life when Christ comes back. This person will go where the unbelievers go. Verses 47 and 48 prove there will be varying degrees of punishment in hell. It will be worse for the ones who lose their salvation. 2 Peter 2:20,21 also proves this.
THE PARABLE of THE SOWER
Luke 8:5-8 - Jesus said, "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. Some fell on rock, and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" ~ Note: If you can hear then you ought to know that in order for someone to wither away they had to once have a good life in the body of Christ. Someone can't wither away if they were never saved to begin with, because if they were never saved then they never had life that could wither away.
JESUS then explained THE PARABLE of THE SOWER
Luke 8:11-15 - Jesus said, "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved (Note: These people do not become believers after they hear the word of God, but the others next do believe and get born again, but they lose their life in Christ and fall away because of sin). But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while (Note: For a time they were born-again believers. It's the common word for believe, pisteuo. They had saving faith. They had the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative of law and soul. That is what to believe means. In other words, they had the power of God within them to drive them to have a distinctively superior advantage of having their souls obey His moral law, but they only did it for a while.) and in time of temptation fall away (Note: They had been set free from sin, but they didn't resist the temptation when they were enticed to sin. The word for fall away means they depart, desert, withdraw, fall away, whichever definition you choose to use, from having life in Christ. They became faithless. They got that way because they fell for the temptation of sin.)" The people who say that the ones who fall away were not real believers contradict God's word, because it clearly says they believed for a while. Plus you can't fall away from something if you were never with it to begin with.
"Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity." ~ Note: To go out also means to pursue the journey on which one has entered. They had entered into a life with Christ; but while seeking where that life would lead them, their fruit did not mature. They got choked. It means to choke utterly the seed of the divine word sown in the mind. Riches (wealth, abundance of external possessions) and pleasures (lust) is what caused it. I will show you later that you need to bear good fruit.
"But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it (Note: The word for keep means hold fast, keep, stay in regards to from going away. This is our personal responsibility to continue to believe the word of God and to stay faithful to Him) and bear fruit with patience." ~ Note: The word for patience more correctly means enduring, perseverance, the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings. To be saved at the end, you must persevere while bearing good fruit. Jesus made it clear that a true believer produces good fruit, and that the human will is involved in remaining a believer, since He says we must keep it and persevere. Christ proves here that no one is eternally secure no matter what they do.

Rod Mix

Rod_Mix,
Yes there are several ways a person can lose the salvation they once my have had.
One of the ways has happened to many people.
For some reason or other they have rejected God.
Another is that for some reason or other they have refused to forgive others.
Jesus said it plain and clear that a person must be forgiven to go to heaven and a person who does not forgive others will NOT be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What IF you were born again , but upon further inspection you changed your mind and decided that christianity was too fear/threat based, exclusive, and that Gods acceptance of spending eternity with him was "conditional?" This still won't cause you to lose your salvation???

cozyk,

Just now saw this... sorry. Ok well I have been actually studying this very thing. I believe IF and that is HUGE IF someone were saved, that someone is always saved. PERIOD. Nothing you can do or say can change it. I already know what I am saying in controversial but I believe it to my core and I believe it because the scripture teaches it. The problem that I have is the IF... I know that I KNOW I am the Lord's. Not because I'm special, not because I am moral, not because I remembered to forgive everyone today but because I am relying on and ONLY on what Jesus Christ did for me on the cross. When he said... "it is finished". I believe it. There is nothing I can do to lose my salvation. I was sealed with his Spirit. So as crazy as this sounds... if I awoke tomorrow thinking I could do it on my own... my Lord has said this to me... I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. ( He was speaking to the believer) He didn't put a condition on it... not a one cozyk. And one last thought... Christianity isn't fear based... it is all about love. You told me you liked Joel Osteen... what about Joel's message is scary?

Christianity is and should be about Love. Having said that, the Lord did give us a glimpse of things to come. To warn, to encourage, to enlighten and to inform us. Would you think Him a Loving God if he didn't let you know what will happen IF people reject His son? But the good news is... it doesn't have to happen!!

classyT

Yes there are ways a person can lose his/her salvation as I have mentioned before in this thread.
Fred

classyT

Yes there are ways a person can lose his/her salvation as I have mentioned before in this thread.
Fred

If you mean that you can lose your salvation as opposed to rejecting it, you will be hard pressed to find anything in scripture to support that theory.

John 10:28-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

I accept God's assurance that no one can tale our salvation away. So no, we cannot "lose" our salvation.

We can, however, choose to walk away intentionally from our salvation.

Tj3,
I mean that a person can lose his/her salvation in several ways and one of them is to later in life turn from God and reject Him by becoming an atheist or some other way od thinking and believing.
Also a person can get into a situation where for some reason the refuse to forgive others.
Jesus clearly tells us that those who do not forgive will not be forgiven and that one must be forgiven to go to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I mean that a person can lose his/her salvation in several ways and one of them is to later in life turn from God and reject Him by becoming an atheist or some other way od thinking and believing.

Scripture says that there is one way by which we can ceased to be saved and that is to deliberately reject Him. We cannot simply "lose" our salvation. You can so say, but you will not find that in scripture.

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D

No. I don't believe one can loose their salvation unless you fully reject God. He lives within your inner most being. God lives in you if you accept that you are him and he is you I feel you cannot loose your salvation.

If you mean that you can lose your salvation as opposed to rejecting it, you will be hard pressed to find anything in scripture to support that theory.

John 10:28-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

I accept God's assurance that no one can tale our salvation away. So no, we cannot "lose" our salvation.

We can, however, choose to walk away intentionally from our salvation.

Tj3,

Here is my problem, I can't IMAGINE someone really having a personal relationship with the Lord and say... naah, I got my own way. I can see someone wondering off, getting into things they shouldn't because I have! I can even see many owning Christianity without KNOWING him.

What do you do with the Lord saying I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. There isn't a condition to it. How can we be put "in Christ" Christ in us, only to have all that undone?

When those that stand before him saying Lord, Lord haven't we done this and that in your name.. the Lord says.. depart... I NEVER knew you. Not... I knew you once but you left me.

Oh well. Just my thoughts.

Tj3,

Here is my problem, I can't IMAGINE someone really having a personal relationship with the Lord and say...naah, I got my own way. I can see someone wondering off, getting into things they shouldn't because I have! I can even see many owning Christianity without KNOWING him.

What do you do with the Lord saying I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. There isn't a condition to it. How can we be put "in Christ" Christ in us, only to have all that undone?

When those that stand before him saying Lord, Lord haven't we done this and that in your name..the Lord says..depart.....i NEVER knew you. Not....i knew ya once but you left me.

Oh well. Just my thoughts.

ClassyT, I am not sure if you want my opinon, but please know I do offer the edified hope, in love of Christ for all His children. It is the same goodness that He has asked that we give others. I hope that is okay..

Your quote words is answered by refer in (Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.)

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

These verses show the difference in measure of knowledge, and the up and down of reaping what is sown.

Tj3,
Here is my problem, I can't IMAGINE someone really having a personal relationship with the Lord and say... naah, I got my own way. I can see someone wondering off, getting into things they shouldn't because I have! I can even see many owning Christianity without KNOWING him.

Agreed. I personally do not think that many turn away but Paul gave us examples in scripture of some who did fall away from the faith. To fall away means that they were once there, and left.


What do you do with the Lord saying I will NEVER leave you or forsake you. There isn't a condition to it. How can we be put "in Christ" Christ in us, only to have all that undone?

God is faithful and will never leave us or forsake us, but man is not so trustworthy.

If God's faithfulness meant that we would never be allowed to leave Him on our own freewill, then why did He let Adam fall?

ClassyT, I am not sure if you want my opinon, but please know I do offer the edified hope, in love of Christ for all His children. It is the same goodness that He has asked that we give others. I hope that is okay..

Your quote words is answered by refer in (Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.)

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

These verses show the difference in measure of knowledge, and the up and down of reaping what is sown.

I could not agree more. By being as open as you are I truly believe you are without hindrance to receiving the light of God and all the wisdom and knowledge that comes with it. Which allows you live out jesus greatest commandment love thy neighbor as thyself. See many christians are great @ quoting the bible and making reference to scripture but do they TRULY understand the words they are speaking? In my experience they don't. To be close to good, you need to put actions into your words!

ClassyT, I am not sure if you want my opinon, but please know I do offer the edified hope, in love of Christ for all His children. It is the same goodness that He has asked that we give others. I hope that is okay..

Your quote words is answered by refer in (Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.)

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

These verses show the difference in measure of knowledge, and the up and down of reaping what is sown.

Snd,

Of course it is OK. I see this parable totally differently. Not so much about the reaping and the sowing but about the ones that receive the seed and bring forth fruit. They all get the same seed... looks to me that only ONE group does something with it. In other words, only one group is REAL. That is my take.

Tj3,
I stand by what I said.
Fred

Paul tells about an event that must happen before the great day of the Lord arrives.
2 Thessalonians 2:3&4 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for thatDay will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The "falling away" must accur. Most Bible scholars believe this refers to a "great apostasy"
Of the church, when a large portion of the church decends into heresy and ungodly living.

This sounds like we can lose our salvation, we all have choices until our time is up.
Make sure you are staying close to Jesus in prayer and keeping His teaching.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

I just see more differences of opinion between christians. If you can't agree what is correct among yourselves, how to you think you can convert other faiths?

I just see more differences of opinion between christians. If you can't agree what is correct among yourselves, how to you think you can convert other faiths?

Whether there is agreement amongst people who profess to be Christians is not the issue. Indeed when you have two groups, one who holds strictly to what God said in His written word, and others who add to it by adding denominational traditions and other sources, you will, of necessity, have differences.

That is why God gave us His written word to adhere to - it never changes. What Christianity truly is is not what different men and women believe, but rather what the Bible teaches and we are to be conforming our beliefs to what the Bible says.

BTW, no Christian ever converted anyone. What scripture tells us to do is to preach God's word, and it is the Holy Spirit who converts by working on the heart.

[
QUOTE]
Whether there is agreement amongst people who profess to be Christians is not the issue. Indeed when you have two groups, one who holds strictly to what God said in His written word, and others who add to it by adding denominational traditions and other sources, you will, of necessity, have differences


So are you saying the christians that hold strictly to what God said in his written word are correct and those that add denominational traditions etc. are wrong.



That is why God gave us His written word to adhere to - it never changes. What Christianity truly is is not what different men and women believe, but rather what the Bible teaches and we are to be conforming our beliefs to what the Bible says.

That is putting a lot of eggs in one basket. You only assume that whoever was transcribing God's word got it right.


BTW, no Christian ever converted anyone. What scripture tells us to do is to preach God's word, and it is the Holy Spirit who converts by working on the heart.

I see what you are saying, but I believe you know what I mean. You don't convert, you just preach what you believe to be true, then just pray that "it takes hold" and the persons heart is changed.

[

I see what you are saying, but I believe you know what I mean. You don't convert, you just preach what you believe to be true, then just pray that "it takes hold" and the persons heart is changed.

Close, but not quite. The Holy Spirit is real, and works on people's hearts. Without the work of the Holy Spirit, no one can come to God.

John 6:43-44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
NKJV

Paul tells about an event that must happen befor the great day of the Lord arrives.
2 Thessalonians 2:3&4 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for thatDay will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The "falling away" must accur. Most Bible scholars believe this refers to a "great apostasy"
of the church, when a large portion of the church decends into heresy and ungodly living.

This sounds like we can lose our salvation, we all have choices until our time is up.
Make sure you are staying close to Jesus in prayer and keeping His teaching.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

Maggie,

I don't believe you can lose your salvation but I do believe that many people claim to be Christians and they are not. There are many denomination who have changed sound doctrine to make their congregation happy. In 1962 there was a gallup poll done on whether people believe the bible is absolute truth... something like 84% said yes... same poll in 1992 and it had gone down to 30% that believe the bible is absolute truth. I feel certain the statistics would be less than 30% now. It is happening before our eyes... Those that are saved remain saved but people are perishing for lack of knowledge and our churches across America ( in general) refuse to teach truth. That is my opinion.

Maggie,

I don't believe you can lose your salvation but i do believe that many people claim to be Christians and they are not.

I'd like to be clear about terminology. When a person "loses" something, they not aware of when it went away, or where. I do not believe that a person can lose their salvation. There are some who believe that if you sin, knowingly or unknowingly, that you can cease to be saved. There are some who will say that we cannot know that we are saved (IFred has told me many times that this is his position), even though scripture says that we can have assurance of salvation.

If we can have assurance of salvation, and if, as scripture says, no one can snatch us out of His hand, then we cannot "lose" our salvation. We can, however, knowingly turn away from it.

Who, according to scripture is free? It is those who are saved - can we then say that it is only those who are unsaved that are free enough to accept Christ, but those who are freed in Christ cannot decide to turn away? That would mean that it is only the unsaved who have freewill, which is contrary to scripture which says that the unsaved are slaves to sin, but we are bondservants to Christ.

Tom,

I hate that we disagree on this... drives me NUTS. But you will have to changes your position... lol because I think you are wrong. ;)

Tom,

I hate that we disagree on this...drives me NUTS. but you will have to changes your position....lol because I think you are wrong. ;)

We can't agree on everything ;)

I think instead of debating who is saved or not, who lost their salvation, or not, who is following the scripture the way it was intended or not, that we should just live each day to the best of our ability.

The percentage of people believing that the bible is the absolute truth is going down for a reason.
People are getting smarter, more enlightened, trust in their heart and spirit more than what is written in a book that may or may not even be true. I see it as a step in the right direction.

Just adhering to a book of rules for fear of going to hell is not what it's all about. Living your life in a way that contributes to the goodness, love and support to our fellow man is what should be our goal. What happens after we leave this planet is anybodies guess. I happen to believe that goodness yields goodness. I think that somehow you get what you give. This is not my motive though. When you are truly in tune with what is right, you do it because anything else just feels bad. The after life will take care of itself. Make THIS world a better place.

Maggie 3,
The Falling Away. Very good post, that.
I agree.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

OLOR="DarkRed"]This is actually the age of aquarius in which people will no longer look to the church for answers, but the will look for the truth within themselves and connect to the light of the creator which dwells with each human being.



Jesus greatest commandment love thy neighbor as thyself, his sole purpose was to come to earth and show us how to live and to always embrace and show love to on another.

OLOR="DarkRed"]This is actually the age of aquarius in which people will no longer look to the church for answers, but the wil look for the truth within themselves and connect to the light of the creator which dwells with each human being.

Scripture speaks of it as the great falling away.