I used to be Christian... I was rifling through some old Christian CDs of mine today, and got to thinking... I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something... But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics. I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago...

I guess I just don't get it. How can people understand whatever force or energy or god there is so much to be able to believe something like Christianity, which has so many specifics (that god sent his son, who was also god, to save humanity from their sin... and this son sent the holy spirit, which is also god... that god is three in one... )

I feel like 'faith' is a cop-out when you can't give any real answers for why you believe the things you do... and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things...

How do you believe something that you can't prove, that you can't even REALLY understand? I just don't get it... I know I used to do it, but looking back, I feel like I 'believed' so strongly because I needed to do so... and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly. Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own? And maybe some people are never able to do that, or get caught up in believing in something out of convenience and never progress beyond it?

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

And as a Christian I can't understand how anyone can't see all of God's creation and see his power in everything in the world.

Pure faith is not just believing, it is far more than that, it has a actual way of life, You not only believe, but you feel the power, you hear his world, and you see him in all his creations.

For example when I saw someone healed in the hospital ER, when I get the doctors reports of wonderous things he does. When I see wonders that happen to people, and I see his grace and forgiveness to people in the worst parts of their lifes. It is not just a belief, it is a way of life, the power to help you though the hard parts of life, and the suffering of life, and the wonders of the power when he shows his glory.

If you actually have that faith, nothing on earth could ever take that away from you.

And yes, it has nothing to do woth filling in gaps, if that is all it was used for, ti is merely a crutch and not a real life style of faith.

Can I ask you what happened that made you be a nonbeliever? I mean, you can still believe in GOD and not have a church that you particularly care for, but still know he's their? If you used to be a Christian, what happened that made you not? You can certainly have questions about Faith and GOD but to chuck it all together seems a little harsh. Isn't it innocent until proven gulity? You've gone straight for the guilty road instead of checking you facts first? Are you now an Atheist then? Faith is real and GOD is real, and you're right, it is hard to believe something or someone if you can't see it... I mean you believe in Hope don't you? Have you ever Hoped for a big paycheck or that it did or didn't rain... or that something was on sale, etc... you still grabbed onto hope to help something go you way. Why not Faith? What's wrong with believing in something that truly might help you? If you can Hope, you can have Faith. I think you should really seek answers from a Christian person that you trust or did and get some answers, ans open yourself to it and it will make sense. Good Luck and remember, God is ALWAYS capitalized :)

Margog, Sounds like you miss your 'faith,' or think you should. If that's so, is it the loss of a divine guide? Maybe the loss of the social network (provided you attended a house of worship). Many studies claim that the religious are 'happier' but the qualifier is the social group to which they belong - it gives them a more secure sense of belonging and a network for helping through problems.

When you were a believer, was it because your family and community were also? I mean, did you have faith in a god because it was 'expected' or because you found it on your own? In my teens, I came to realize the former was true for me, so I began really examining my faith and every other I could find 'reliable' info on. (It didn't help when my minister began railing about Communism on Sundays instead of Scripture.) The result was a change from 'automatic' faith to agnosticism - the God I was brought up to believe in didn't exist as I was taught, but there might be an omnipotent entity. I even rationalized that one day science would find this 'god' as the ultimate force that held the most basic atomic particles together (the ones we haven't yet been able to detect or at least confirm).

Eventually I came to the conclusion that the concept of a god was too irrational. Then I started to study science to confirm this and found I didn't need such an entity to explain anything. Any residual 'faith' in me goes back to that unnamed 'basic force' but even that I cannot admit to as a conscious being - it's just the way the universe is. Has always been. So-called natural laws...

I suggest you talk to a few ministers (or priests). Don't limit yourself to one church, either. Maybe a couple in a few different sects. Each will have their own slant on a basic message and may help you to decide if you need to return to an organized religion, or if you can reconcile your fading faith to a solely personal one without the need for a particular doctrine. Or that you don't need a faith at all.

I don't need a god to behave in a 'christian' manner. I don't need the hope of a blissful, or the fear of a terrible, afterlife to treat my fellow humans (or any living thing) with respect. I don't think the reward or punishment should be necessary for that and I worry about those (and the society many of them seem to desire) who think it is necessary.

Good luck in your search...

How do you believe something that you can't prove, that you can't even REALLY understand? I just don't get it... I know I used to do it, but looking back, I feel like I 'believed' so strongly because I needed to do so... and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly. Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own? And maybe some people are never able to do that, or get caught up in believing in something out of convenience and never progress beyond it?

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

I will try to explain my own thoughts though not sure if I can make a non-believer understand the why or how.
I am a believer in a monotheistic religion, a muslim.

I believe in my beliefs because what I believe makes sense to me.Not out of convenience or not to fill gaps or not to serve the emotional need to believe.

I believe because I can never accept that this whole universe came about without a designer,a planner,a Creator.There are too many marvels in nature for me to even think that it all came about by chance.
I am not saying I don't believe in the big bang etc.
All I know is that the way the universe and how natural systems work is much too intricate for it to have occurred by chance.Now there is the reason I believe in a Creator,an Almighty being.

Now about the choice of my religion- I did grow up in a muslim household,my basic values come from that.but I was exposed to different cultures and faiths when I was quite young.I wasn't a firm follower of my faith then,it was just a part of my life I rarely thought about at that time.
Then things changed as I grew up,unlike most I did not start to doubt my beliefs but I began to understand what my faith is about and what it meant for me to be a believer.
I began to read up on my beliefs as well as other faiths, things became clearer.

I realised that I wasn't following a new religion,but a religion as old as mankind itself.Monotheism I believe in is the same as the other two major monotheistic faiths and I believe what I follow is not that different from the basic monotheistic beliefs in those religions because it came from the same source.

I believe in all the revealed books in that the necessary teachings of each of those books is in the book I believe in.For me to have faith in my beliefs and the Almighty I believe in is reality for me.
That an Almighty exists is not hard for me to believe because I know that there are things in the universe on earth and beyond that humans may never find an explanation.

For me to believe in an Almighty is to believe in ultimate justice for all.That those who committ murder and other crimes and escape the worldly human punishment cannot escape the ultimate justice they will face after death.To me that makes sense because for some to committ atrocities and to escape punishment is not fair or right,for some to suffer at the hands of another human and not have to face the consequences of their actions is not right.
That those who have all that they require to enjoy this worldly life and those who barely scrape by to live,I believe for each of these types,they will have to answer as to what they did in this world whether right or wrong.

My beliefs show me that life is a test and it explains the hardships faced by good doers or bliss enjoyed by bad doers.
Each of these are being tested for what they do with what they have and how they live.

And my beliefs explain to me why there are different kinds of people in looks,height and manners.I know science has explanations for this,but I believe that physical strengths and weaknesses among different people are tests too.

Anyway,I believe what I believe because my beliefs answer my questions regarding life and my existence in this world.

EDIT:::
Regarding the need to fit into a social group for strength etc.
It has done the opposite for me because those who were close before I became a firm believer has emotionally distanced themselves from me because they do not want to think about what it means to be a firm believer.
They only wish to associate with someone who will strengthen their own basic beliefs but not look beyond what it actually means to believe.
Friends find it hard to meet up and talk with me because they see the changes in my appearance and some I guess fear that I may pull them in,when I am just the same person as I was before by character but different in my outlook on life and living.

I appreciate things more now,I face challenges better and now when to let go and that there are things beyond our control no matter what we may wish otherwise.

And on a side note,I did not strengthen my faith because of drugs,alcohol or any other sort of abuse or hitting rock bottom in any area of life.
I have never used drugs or tasted alcohol,nor was I promiscuous(sp) or irresponsible.I have the same values as before now they are more stronger as everything my beliefs add to what I already had within me.

I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...
I know the feeling! Besides that : NOBODY can prove god/gods exist. That's the basis of religious BELIEF.
It's the weakness of religion, and the reason why theists can only make claims about their beliefs. And for a smaller group of theists the reason to be aggressive against other views that often can be supported by objective evidence for their views, and therefore becomes some kind of threat to those who's faith is tottering.


Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own?
You got that spot on, Margo!

;)

·

Your feeling there is something out there could be God trying to get your attention.
If you truly didn't believe you would not even be questioning these feelings you would be firm with unbelief. Maybe it would be good to find a Christian you can go to and ask questions.
Find answers to your questions don't just deny or dismiss them.

Religion is a way of life, a set of beliefs and stories that have been told and retold and indoctrinated throughout history and time. Different ones were created to make people feel safer about things they will never understand. It is a set of moral and ethical standards and rules to abide by. It doesn't really have anything to do with God. Religion is a tool to control people and used to create definite understandings about our creation and our existence.

RELIGION ASIDE... God has NOT been disproven either. YEs it may take faith to believe in an existence greater than yourself, but with all the science and technology we have, there is nothing that can prove God doesn't exist either. It is all in your perception of what you think God is. Faith can be viewed as what we use in place of a proven hypothesis. Although there is evolution, there is nothing that has disproved God's existence before evolution occurred.

I am certain that the more I know, the less I understand. However in dealing with my own experiences with death and loss I have learned something. WE are here to grow and evolve spiritually, WITHIN. WE are here to be connected to the energy that is on this earth and in every living thing. We are here to love and be loved. I don't need faith to know this, I have come to realize it as my truth. My faith is in what I believe will happen after this existence.. I think my soul has lived before and goes on to live again.. I don't know where, how or when. My faith keeps me going so I am not afraid of the unknown.

Ultimately, not having faith doesn't disprove God exists either. I know there are miracles right in front of us everyday in nature, with our families and children and throughout the world that constitute a faith in something greater than us. WE may only focus on what is evil, corrupt, tragic, painful or unclear, but we can also focus on the complete opposite. In changing our perspective to recognizing beauty, love and joy, it allows us heightened awareness and opportunity for spiritual growth and a recognition of a God, NOT somewhere out there or up above, but within each one of us. As we are all connected, we are all one, and thus we are all God.

Just as when people are silent, with nature, praying or meditating, or doing yoga, they are able to become calm, peaceful and feel "one" with universe. That is what I am talking about, that is the time when people become aware of the energy and being connected to it. They feel a complete detachment from pain, suffering or sadness.. that is what being one with spirit will do. That is how God exists for me. I try to be aware all the time but sometimes I am distracted, weak and selfish. The good thing is, since we were born with free will, we are able to learn from our mistakes and become better people. That is why I don't adhere to religion because it is about punishment and sinning, and that isn't all what God is about.. (AT LEAST FOR ME)

If you truly didn't believe you would not even be questioning these feelings you would be firm with unbelief. Maybe it would be good to find a Christian you can go to and ask questions.
... "truly"... based on what do you suggest that?
Margo believed in some deity almost all her life, and just has to still settle in with her new world views excluding a deity, reason for her present feelings that there is or may be some other power out there...

:rolleyes:

·

... "truly" ... based on what do you suggest that?
Margo believed in some deity almost all her life, and just has to still settle in with her new world views excluding a deity, reason for her present feelings that there is or may be some other power out there ....

:rolleyes:

·
And what do you think that other power out there may be?? :rolleyes:

She could ask a rabbi even

God has NOT been disproven either.
What is it with so many theists that once a former theist loose his/her belief in a deity, that always some other theist posts that this does not mean "that the deity is not disproved"?
Of course it does not mean that. But much more important is that there has never been any proof for any deity to exist, and that is much more important !

:rolleyes:

·

WHy is it that so many people want to put a label on someone else in order to prove their point. I don't put myself in any category that you just put me. I have a personal relationship with an existence greater than myself and nothing in history has done anything to prove that the existence I am aware of, DOES NOT EXIST. YOU made your point about what has been proven or not proven.. In order for your argument to be plausible, you would have to prove that my statement is incorrect or unfounded. YOU HAVE NO PROOF to disprove my theory, thus it doesn't make your assumption any more important or true than mine...

WHy is it that so many people want to put a label on someone else in order to prove their point. I don't put myself in any category that you just put me. I have a personal relationship with an existence greater than myself and nothing in history has done anything to prove that the existence I am aware of, DOES NOT EXIST. YOU made your point about what has been proven or not proven.. In order for your argument to be plausible, you would have to prove that my statement is incorrect or unfounded. YOU HAVE NO PROOF to disprove my theory, thus it doesn't make your assumption any more important or true than mine....
AMEN!

YOU made your point about what has been proven or not proven.. In order for your argument to be plausible, you would have to prove that my statement is incorrect or unfounded. YOU HAVE NO PROOF to disprove my theory, thus it doesn't make your assumption any more important or true than mine....
That is an incorrect statement. There is a huge difference between making a claim based on a linguistic and/or logical "positive" and a linguistic and/or logical "negative".
If nobody can provide objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "positive" , than supporters of that claim should never ask for objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "negative". That is extremely unfair.

Example :

For the statement : there is life all around the universe all that has to be done is to send probes in all directions into space, which - encountering life - have to return and/or report that back. As soon as you have a couple of such reports, your claim is valid.

However for the statement : there is no life in the universe other than on earth one has to send multi-trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of probes to each and every planet, planetoid, or any other possible habitat - including gas clouds - in the universe to check the on itself already enormous difficult task to prove that there is no life there. Simply an impossible task to do .

Therefore : the onus to prove the existence of a deity/deities is on the believers. Not on the non-believers to prove the non-existence of a deity/deities.

As stated so many times before : from me you may believe whatever you like. But that does not mean that you are correct with what you believe. So do not try to convince others that your delusions are the "one and only truth" , but support your beliefs with your actions and your deeds.
"Spreading the word" was not meant to be words only, but clearly and mainly by example.

So far your actions are not showing yet that you got to "spreading the word".

:rolleyes:

·

We do not have to prove anything because faith is to be believed not proven or it would not be faith so that is where your lengthy posts of us having to prove anything miss the point.
So none of what you say is any more correct/relevant than us saying prove prove it is not.

I had posted the below, today, on another thread, but I think it may apply to this one as well. Forgive me, if some of it applies too much to the other thread, but I hope you can see the relevance to this one :).

I'll also add to the below….I think it is great that you ask that you question, to be it's a sign of hope. Your heart and mind have not completely ruled out God's love, you still reach and wonder for the answer.

To me, this life would be pure blek, without God's love. And I have the most wonderful husband, family, friends, job….all of it. But without God, it just wouldn't shine as it does. I wouldn't be able to see the beauty and love in all people.

Why do children starve? Because we allow them to. Not God. He is depending on all of us to take care of each other in all ways.

I can see God's love in all people. We all are so imperfect, we have faults, we get upset at each other – but deep within us all – is the capacity to love and forgive. That to me, is one of the many gifts, that God has blessed us with. With so much that goes on, how do you think we still are able to reach our hands out to each other?

************************************************** **********************

I completely agree with OG, that you shouldn't attribute health, good health, as a sign that God exist. It can in some circumstances, but what about those beautiful people stricken with cancer, or those beautiful starving children, is God not right there by their side?

I also agree with Wildandblue, that if you give God the keys, to the car of life, His loving plan for you, will guide you.

As OG so wonderfully stated, we all, sadly will be stricken with some illness or circumstance that will cease our life on this earth, but it is my belief, that God will make that difficult road, much easier.

God carried me through my whole childhood. I remember sitting on the edge of the bed, feet didn't even touch the ground, and smiling and praying, knowing that God was right there with me and would continue to be with me and get me through a great difficulty that I knew was only minutes away.

For me, the proof that some seek, is all around, it's what the eyes behold and the heart sees, that helps one to believe.

I know some say there life is just fine without the believing that there is a God, and would be willing to believe once they obtain proof, but that is the wonder of God. It is my belief, that if one would open their eyes and see God's love, they would understand the glorious gifts they now enjoy are sent from above, and would be even that more precious to behold.

I wish I had the words that would help others to see, not to force my view, but so others are not left out in a place that they don't have to be. But I don't have the words, or the proof that some seek. I just have prayers that all will find their way, and keep me on the right path to our Loving Father.

I can only share with all of you, that when I try and run this life by myself, it never seems to work out too well, but when I give those keys over to God, the road is so much easier.

I can only share with all of you, that when I try and run this life by myself, it never seems to work out too well, but when I give those keys over to God, the road is so much easier.I guess that's where many of us differ in our reasons for being religious or not. I seem to be able to run my life just fine without a book or worshipping some unseen presence. I don't have a need to give the keys to anyone because I'm driving just fine.

I understand what you are saying NK. But what I mean in handling life better - I mean in a more caring way. In a way, that exceeds what some may think is beyond a human capability... turning the other cheek and offering a loving shoulder when unkindness comes your way. That sort of thing. It's so hard to do that, when you are hurt, upset or angry, and stay in your human self, but when you, or I mean I, remember God's love and what He wants for us, it's so far easier to be able to turn that cheek and want well for those who may injure you.

That's more of what I mean than things running smoothly or going well.

I do that without a god. I mean I try my best by my own volition.

I do too, NK, but when I forget about God's love, and wallow in my upset, I am not always very successful. But then I look beyond upset and beyond the person's actions and see a whole lot of good, and maybe even the reasons for their negative actions. It's hard to overcome that quickly on my own, but the moment I remember about God's love, the upset vanishes almost instantly.

I guess the big question is: why are you so upset all the time? That's not the natural way of being in my view.

LOL Good question :).

I'm not upset all the time - but there are times that I do get upset and I overcome it far easier with God's love in my heart.

It's just one example of the difference God makes in my life.

Ah I see. I get upset too, like all human beings, but I overcome it on my own.

Here, for you:

V5BxymuiAxQ

That is an incorrect statement. There is a huge difference between making a claim based on a linguistic and/or logical "positive" and a linguistic and/or logical "negative".
If nobody can provide objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "positive" , than supporters of that claim should never ask for objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "negative". That is extremely unfair.

Example :

For the statement : there is life all around the universe all that has to be done is to send probes in all directions into space, which - encountering life - have to return and/or report that back. As soon as you have a couple of such reports, your claim is valid.

However for the statement : there is no life in the universe other than on earth one has to send multi-trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of probes to each and every planet, planetoid, or any other possible habitat - including gas clouds - in the universe to check the on itself already enormous difficult task to prove that there is no life there. Simply an impossible task to do .

Therefore : the onus to prove the existence of a deity/deities is on the believers. Not on the non-believers to prove the non-existence of a deity/deities.

As stated so many times before : from me you may believe whatever you like. But that does not mean that you are correct with what you believe. So do not try to convince others that your delusions are the "one and only truth" , but support your beliefs with your actions and your deeds.
"Spreading the word" was not meant to be words only, but clearly and mainly by example.

So far your actions are not showing yet that you got to "spreading the word".

:rolleyes:

·

I think you have absolutely no idea what I have written in my posts. You are simply here to argue. I don't know one bit about my "one and ONLY truth" all I spoke about was what I have experienced to be PERSONALLY TRUE FOR ME.. I never tried to convince you of anything, I just shared my view and understanding of my own existence. I have never been the sort to "SPREAD THE WORD" whatever that means, and I have never tried to make people see MY VIEW AS THE ONLY CORRECT ONE..

This isn't my first rodeo speaking on this site about faith or religion, I commented very simply because most of the time no one responds to anything but dramatic insults and attacks. I am not here for that and I NEVER HAVE been.


MY "action" has been to recognize that if I give and receive love, I feel happy and at peace. THAT is all. I have also realized that its "NOT LIFE ALL AROUND THE EARTH OR UNIVERSE"
BUT RATHER:

THE energy within everything that is alive... HOW that happens on any planet has yet to be understood or proved of where it originated from. JUST as "GOD's" existence has yet to be proven or understood.

THE Magnificent MYSTERIES OF THE UNIVERSE ARE THAT FOR A REASON: we aren't equipped to take in all the knowledge that is out there.. yet some people are more connected to the energy and thus grow differently than someone as stunted in their thinking as you are.

Please stop putting me into a category of someone who is any certain LABEL, I am simply me.. I live my life and as I grow older, these are things that I understand to be true FOR MY LIFE.. I don't expect or assume everyone else will agree with it. We are all vastly different human beings, with incredibly intriciate minds but we are all connected as well.

EVERYTHING that is alive is connected, simply by the energy it is created with, HOW can that NOT BE TRUE??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yes cred keeps making the accusation that we are saying stuff like "the one and only truth is...."
I have yet to see ALL these one and only truth quotes.

Ah I see. I get upset too, like all human beings, but I overcome it on my own.

Here, for you:

V5BxymuiAxQ

OMG I love that!! The world is awesome, isn't it :)

I was singing right with it!! I do love the whole world :)

NoHelp4u... You are right and I really think its ridiculous. Maybe it is due to a paranoia of sorts but I haven't seen one consistent message of any specific truth.. Just people's perception of faith. THAT Is what the poster was asking about.. THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT!! :)

Allheart, that is what I so wonderful about you, you send a message of love to everyone... what in the world could ever be wrong with that?? Xoxo;)

shatteredsoul / N0help4u


yes cred keeps making the accusation that we are saying stuff like "the one and only truth is...."
I have yet to see ALL these one and only truth quotes.
The problem is that all theists use quotes like "God did this" or "God knows that", many even talk about the Christian "truth" , or even about "the one and only truth".
What they mean is that they BELIEVE that .

That is what I wanted to make very clear.

===

About my post : That is an incorrect statement.

That post stands, and although partly replied (to the first lines only), the essence of the post was not replied to. Of course not, as that part of the post can not be denied to be correct.

:rolleyes:

·

And what we would like are is to see these actual quotes we use cause we haven't seen them used here. Maybe we are overlooking them so we would like the 'proof' so for future reference we can correct it:rolleyes:

I agree Cred - I haven't seen those quotes either "the one and only truth". I will tell you this, that I do believe it to be a truth, that God does exist, and everyone, will be introduced to God at one point in their lives and will make a choice as to whether to accept Him or deny Him. That everyone will be armed with enough information about God to be able to make that conscious choice. That those that continue to deny Him, will not have eternal life with Him.

Not sure why we are introduced at different stages in our lives, maybe so we can help each other and long and make sure none of us are lost on the way.

( p.s. I do love you Shattered :) many hugs)

Religion is a way of of life, a set of beliefs and stories that have been told and retold and indoctrinated throughout history and time. Different ones were created to make people feel safer about things they will never understand. It is a set of moral and ethical standards and rules to abide by. It doesn't really have anything to do with God. Religion is a tool to control people and used to create definite understandings about our creation and our existence.

RELIGION ASIDE... God has NOT been disproven either. YEs it may take faith to believe in an existence greater than yourself, but with all the science and technology we have, there is nothing that can prove God doesn't exist either. It is all in your perception of what you think God is. Faith can be viewed as what we use in place of a proven hypothesis. Although there is evolution, there is nothing that has disproved God's existence before evolution occured.

I am certain that the more I know, the less I understand. However in dealing with my own experiences with death and loss I have learned something. WE are here to grow and evolve spiritually, WITHIN. WE are here to be connected to the energy that is on this earth and in every living thing. We are here to love and be loved. I don't need faith to know this, I have come to realize it as my truth. My faith is in what I believe will happen after this existence.. I think my soul has lived before and goes on to live again.. I don't know where, how or when. My faith keeps me going so I am not afraid of the unknown.

Ultimately, not having faith doesn't disprove God exists either. I know there are miracles right in front of us everyday in nature, with our families and children and throughout the world that constitute a faith in something greater than us. WE may only focus on what is evil, corrupt, tragic, painful or unclear, but we can also focus on the complete opposite. In changing our perspective to recognizing beauty, love and joy, it allows us heightened awareness and opportunity for spiritual growth and a recognition of a God, NOT somewhere out there or up above, but within each one of us. As we are all connected, we are all one, and thus we are all God.

Just as when people are silent, with nature, praying or meditating, or doing yoga, they are able to become calm, peaceful and feel "one" with universe. That is what I am talking about, that is the time when people become aware of the energy and being connected to it. They feel a complete detachment from pain, suffering or sadness.. that is what being one with spirit will do. That is how God exists for me. I try to be aware all the time but sometimes I am distracted, weak and selfish. The good thing is, since we were born with free will, we are able to learn from our mistakes and become better people. That is why I don't adhere to religion because it is about punishment and sinning, and that isn't all what God is about.. (AT LEAST FOR ME)


YOU TELL ME WHERE YOU RESPONDED TO MY ENTIRE POST WHEN REALLY THE ONLY THNG YOU RESPONDED TO WAS MY POINT ABOUT DISPROVING GOD EXISTS. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ANSWERS ONLY PART OF WHAT OTHERS SAY AND THEN RUN WITH IT; YOU ARE LIKE A BAD JOURNALIST WHO MISREPRESENTS QUOTES AND WHAT PEOPLE REALLY ARE TRYING TO COMMUNICATE. IT IS SAD REALLY.

Moreover, I don't have to prove something to be true for it to be true. IF that is the case how do you prove your own theory of EXISTENCE, which hasn't been "proven" by anyone.. they are simply theories. Even if you were to say the "Big Bang" is what has been proven, there is nothing that makes God less existent because of it. WHat my interpretation of God is, is not AT ALL RELIGIOUS and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SPREADING ANY WORD.. YOu take what religious zealots say in other posts and respond to everyone with the same rhetoric. YOu are wrong and your slippery slope of an argument holds no more water than mine..

MY own perspective of God is that we are all made up of the same energy and thus we are all connected and we are all God. God isn't a man in the sky holding a staff and rod waiting to punish. IT is the unexplainable mystery of our ability to love and be loved that cannot be proven or explained, but cannot be denied, THAT IS WHAT GOD IS... and everything else in between. GOD is a term I use, but I do not label myself a DEIST or whatever, I don't enforce my beliefs upon others and I am quite aware of YOUR TRUTHS being the one that is forced down people's throats. So, before you judge another's response, make sure you are responding to what is said, NOT JUST WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That post stands, and although partly replied (to the first lines only), the essence of the post was not replied to. Of course not, as that part of the post can not be denied to be correct.

Well I appreciated it. I laughed because it so logical and incontrovertible and so utterly inaccessible to those to whom you are writing. Faith, clearly, is not about logic.

But it does seem unfair for believers to argue that the existence of God is not subject to proof but that unbelievers are under some sort of obligation to justify not believing. I think we should be able to play by the same rules.

I don't know WHAT BELIEVERS you are talking about, but I never said anything about God not being subject to proof or that a NON BELIEVER is under some sort of obligation to justify ANYTHING.. WHAT IS SAID IS THAT NEITHER HAS BEEN DISPROVED OR CAN BE PROVED so BOTH SIDES TAKE AN ELEMENT OF FAITH TO BELIEVE IN..

IT is amazing how you hear what you want to hear and if anyone is playing by their own rules.. its you.

I don't know WHAT BELIEVERS you are talking about, but I never said anything about God not being subject to proof or that a NON BELIEVER is under some sort of obligation to justify ANYTHING.. WHAT IS SAID IS THAT NEITHER HAS BEEN DISPROVED OR CAN BE PROVED so BOTH SIDES TAKE AN ELEMENT OF FAITH TO BELIEVE IN..

IT is amazing how you hear what you want to hear and if anyone is playing by their own rules.. its you.

I SECOND THAT !

Okay, I haven't been able to respond to everyone, so I'll try to briefly go through and respond to what everyone has posted so far in response to my question. I am asking a lot of questions, and not to be rude in anyway. I'm genuinely asking these things. I know a lot of times, things written can come off rudely or condescendingly when they're not meant to be. So please know in advance that any questions I ask are genuine questions to which I hope to receive answers, and not in any way a criticism of anyone's responses. I appreciate everyone's input and hope to hear more from everyone about this.

Fr. Chuck- I'm not saying that I don't see a possibility of there being something greater than us. I feel that there's something behind all of this. I just don't understand how people can have such strong beliefs in the specifics of the nature of that something-greater. How can we assume that it's some intelligent being, that it's a being that is good, that there's a personal dimension to this being, that you can communicate with this being, that it is a BEING and not just some sort of energy. Where do these ideas come from and how can they be believed so strongly? It just seems to possible to me for these beliefs to stem from our own longing and needs. From loneliness. From a need we need to fill, to have some sort of connection to something outside of ourselves, some sort of guidance or protection... I just want to know how people progress from a belief that there is SOMETHING out there (which I do believe) to the specifics of a religion. It just seems like there are too many assumptions made. And with the number of religions out there with their own ideas and beliefs, which are often an interpretation and understanding of whatever this something-else is filtered through their culture, society, upbringing, etc... I just don't think I can believe something strongly that I know is so shaped by society, culture, and assumption rather than by truth.

rsvp209- A lot of things happened that made me realize that my religion was not a good fit for me. Mainly the way that people reacted and treated me when I came out. I'm gay, and people at church seemed to treat me differently, my family changed the locks on me and told me what a rotten sinner I was and told me that they didn't trust me around my younger sister because I was just as 'perverted' as a child molestor. My beliefs didn't line up with the religion that had once been a major part of my life, because no matter how much I prayed, and cried, and read about it, and talked about it, I just couldn't wrap my mind around why they believe the things they do. Those events shook me pretty deeply, and I started questioning everything- I lost my sense of security and really just had a hard time believing in anything. As I said in response to Fr. Chuck, I still believe there is something more than what I can see, but I have a very hard time believing in the specifics of a religion. I'm not an atheist, I'd say more of an agnostic- I believe there is something more, but I have no way of really understanding what that something more is. Your analogy of hope and faith doesn't make much sense to me. Hope is wanting something you don't know if you'll get or not. Which seems to be logical, esp. if you're working towards getting whatever it is you hope for. Faith is believing in something you can never know for sure. How are those the same?

WVHiflyer- I do miss it sometimes, but I can't blindly believe in something anymore- and you're right, I think there is a sense of belonging to something bigger that I miss. Now the only something 'bigger' I belong to is the company I work for. And that's not much fun (lol). As far as why I believed when I did... I questioned my beliefs very young, around 12 or 13. Was raised Catholic, and then declared myself an atheist. Went through the whole 'life-is-hard-because-I'm-an-angsty-teen' phase, and 'found' god and went back to Catholicism. Didn't check out other religions really. But believing gave me a sense of comfort, belonging, and acceptance that I didn't have anywhere else at that point. I think part of me wants to return to some sort of organized belief system just to have some sort of clarity, which I feel I lack now... but at the same time, there are so many holes and questions I see in the beliefs I look into that I don't think I could ever really fully believe in the doctrine of a specific religion again. Have you ever wished you could just turn your mind off for a bit so you could go through the motions and feel whatever kind of connection to that 'something bigger' that other religious people feel? And not be so aware of the feeling that your tricking yourself? That's kind of how I feel right now... it's weird. I feel that I don't 'need' a god to live a good life, or to deal with things, or that reward/punishment should dictate my actions or anyone elses--- I don't know, I guess I'm just kind of thinking about where I was, where I am, and where (if anywhere) I'm going, and trying to see why and how people can make the claims they do...

firmbeliever- I'm glad that your happy with your beliefs, but I really didn't gather from your response why you believe what you do, except that it makes sense to you and that it provides answers to your questions. But do you ever wonder if your beliefs are 'right'- like, if what you believe about god is actually what really is? Because there are so many religions out there, all of which make sense to and provide answers to those who believe in that religion. Are all religions equally valid, and truth something relative? I have a really hard time understanding that.

credendovidis- I appreciate you input and response. It seems that god cannot be proven or disproven- and I feel like I'm not just going to believe until I'm proven wrong. I do believe that there is something more than what I can see- maybe that is just me hanging on to what I'm used to, I don't know just yet. I guess that's another thing I'll figure out in time.

nohelp4u- I guess it could be, but I don't think so. And I never said I didn't believe- I said that I do believe that there is something more, but I have no idea what. And I firmly believe that I have no idea what that is, and I strongly doubt I ever will- but I want to if it's possible. Which is why I presented this question- to see how other people can believe and have faith in something when there are so many variables and no way that I can see to really be sure of anything. And in response to your second post on this thread... you said 'we do not have to prove anything because faith is to be believed not proven or it would not be faith'- I really just don't understand that. It seems like, then, you could make up any old thing and believe it... and there'd be no way of anyone knowing that what they believe is true, because there's not a basis for it... so then, knowing that, how could you really believe?

shatteredsoul- I agree that religion is a tool to control people- but I don't know if that was the main purpose of religion, but instead what it has evolved into. It seems a little too much like a conspiracy theory to me. No offense- but I feel like people offered explanations for things they couldn't understand that were then passed on and became common beliefs among groups, religions formed, numbers of believers grew and organization became necessary, and whenever there is an organization, esp. where there is some sort of hierarchy, there is also corruption and abuse of power. Again, I find your beliefs interesting, but what are they based upon? How did you come to those beliefs, with all of the others out there? Was it just what made sense to you? And if so, then it seems like religious 'truth' is relative, since different things make sense to different people depending upon experience, perception, etc. And as far as 'connection' with god or whatever spirit there is that allows people to feel calm or disconnect from pain they are feeling- doesn't it seem possible that that could be pyschological? Something within our own physical capacity to control, not something we get from some outside source?

Allheart- I always appreciate your posts, and wish I knew you personally. You are such a kind and loving person, and I really admire and respect that. It's not common. I wonder, though... you say that life would be bleek without god's love- and I wonder if that's because it's something you're used to and it would seem bleek if it was absent after feeling that it was there. I don't feel like I have any sort of 'personal' relationship with god and I don't know for certain that god is capable of something as human as love or the other emotions often attributed to god. I wonder if that's our projection of what we want and/or can understand onto whatever that 'being' or 'energy' is. Anyway, I don't have that kind of belief, and I feel my life is far from bleek. I do see goodness and beauty in all people, and a lot of times seeing that (i.e. being with my partner and feeling that connection that we have) makes me feel like there is something more to life than skin and bones and dirt and air... like there's some sort of spiritual dimension, some sort of... something else to who we are that could cause me to feel the way I do when I'm with her, or when I see something beautiful in nature... I guess I don't really doubt that there's something more, but I question how people can get down to the specifics of their beliefs. It just seems like there's so much to work through to get to that nitty gritty detail, and so many people have come up with so many different answers, how can you be sure that what you have faith in is really the right thing? Like I said to others, it seems like it can be such a relative matter, I don't get it.

NeedKarma- I agree that I can live my life fine w/o belief in something bigger than me- I have been, I guess, because even though I have a feeling that there may be more, I know nothing about whatever that something more could be, so it doesn't impact my life much like it does for religious people. I can handle things, and I do so on my own. I don't pray, I don't adhere to any religious beliefs... but I just wonder about it all. So many people believe in something... but they all believe in different things, even within the same religion sometimes. Is there something to it? To any of it? Does each religion have a little bit of truth?



And in regard to whatever this debating is all about... I'm not touching that one. Lol. I'm not here to argue or accuse anyone of forcing their beliefs or discuss how religious people do or do not conduct themselves- I just have questions and want to hear from people and discuss their answers. That's all.

.... it does seem unfair for believers to argue that the existence of God is not subject to proof but that unbelievers are under some sort of obligation to justify not believing. I think we should be able to play by the same rules.
Excellent point !

:D

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That those that continue to deny Him, will not have eternal life with Him.

I didn't post here originally to argue faith, but I do have a question for your post: why assume anyone, at least "one who denies," cares about an "eternal life with Him"? I don't. I seek to do my good here and now because I don't believe there's anything after. Some need to feel they'll 'live' for an eternity. By the time I die, I'll just want to rest. :D :rolleyes:

way that people reacted and treated me when I came out. I'm gay, and people at church seemed to treat me differently, my family changed the locks on me and told me what a rotten sinner I was and told me that they didn't trust me around my younger sister because I was just as 'perverted' as a child molestor. My beliefs didn't line up with the religion that had once been a major part of my life, because no matter how much I prayed, and cried, and read about it, and talked about it, I just couldn't wrap my mind around why they believe the things they do. Those events shook me pretty deeply, and I started questioning everything- I lost my sense of security and really just had a hard time believing in anything.

That's the problem with many organized religions - too many become hung up in the 'rules' and forget the spirit of the faith (at least with the 3 big monotheist ones). Remember Christ's basic teachings and find a sect that concentrates on the loving nature of those instead of ones that take too much of the brimstone from the Old Testament.



people offered explanations for things they couldn't understand that were then passed on and became common beliefs among groups, religions formed, numbers of believers grew and organization became necessary, and whenever there is an organization, esp. where there is some sort of hierarchy, there is also corruption and abuse of power

Couldn't have said it beter myself.



makes me feel like there is something more to life than skin and bones and dirt and air... like there's some sort of spiritual dimension, some sort of... something else to who we are that could cause me to feel the way I do when I'm with her, or when I see something beautiful in nature... I guess I don't really doubt that there's something more, but I question how people can get down to the specifics of their beliefs.


Think of the meditation of the Eastern religions. Clearing one's mind to 'become one with the universe.' Atheist that I am, I can't put a spiritual spin on that, but maybe they're hearing the musical tones of the vibrating strings (string theory of quantum mechanics) <G> Since you do believe in 'something,' ;earning to meditate properly may clear your thoughts so you can connect with it (whatever it is). To some, the connection with another person is an 'earthly substitute.' Relish it - no matter what others think.

Good luck winding your way through the spiritual minefield.

Margog,

I don't have time to read all the other answers now, but I would like to tell you that No one would believe in Christianity or Islam or Judaism, the monotheistic religions, if they didn't have it indoctrinated into them as children. If an adult by some longshot of luck never heard of Christianity, for example, until he was 25, he would reject it as preposterous ancient storytelling, not as anything resembling what really happened long ago!

That does not mean you have to give up on having a "spiritual" life. Einstein wrote about his thoughts on god, not a personal god as depicted in the Bible, but different.

Best wishes,

I wasn't indoctrinated when I was growing up. When I was little I 'knew' there had to be something and nobody ever really explained it to me.

firmbeliever- I'm glad that your happy with your beliefs, but I really didn't gather from your response why you believe what you do, except that it makes sense to you and that it provides answers to your questions. But do you ever wonder if your beliefs are 'right'- like, if what you believe about god is actually what really is? Because there are so many religions out there, all of which make sense to and provide answers to those who believe in that religion. Are all religions equally valid, and truth something relative? I have a really hard time understanding that.
own physical capacity to control, not something we get from some outside source?


And in regard to whatever this debating is all about... I'm not touching that one. lol. I'm not here to argue or accuse anyone of forcing their beliefs or discuss how religious people do or do not conduct themselves- I just have questions and want to hear from people and discuss their answers. That's all.

I personally believe I am following the right one,because my beliefs do not negate in totality the Jewish or Christian beliefs or other pure monotheistic beliefs of ancient times.
I believe it has been the same religion since the beginning of the first human, and that it has been passed down in every generation somewhere in the world.

And also believe that there has been changes made into pure monotheism by different generations by adopting polytheism or denial of a Creator.

I believe I am following the last of the Messengers and I do not reject any of the previous ones in the sense that I follow strict monotheism,no praying to statues or humans or nature.

And I do believe my faith to be the true faith and I have no doubts about it at all.

I can give you few examples of why I have already crossed out other monotheistic religions as I believe those not being true,and this is not to offend anyone but just to state my personal beliefs on it.

Judaism-their belief that they are the chosen people for all time.
Christianity-trinity and that Jesus(alaihi salaam) was the son of God does not make sense to me in that an Almighty Creator of this universe needing a human son or any other partner is difficult for me to imagine.

Now when I listed the above faiths,it does not mean that I do not believe that Judaism and Christianity as a whole,because I believe in the existence of Jesus(alaihi salaam) and the existence of Moses(alaihi salaam) and many other messengers before them,but I do believe that each of those messengers preached monotheism.


:)

Margog85 you said... "and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things.."

We choose how we feel. Nobody and nothing can make you feel anything you don't wan't to, even pain. We can allow ourselves to follow the group and feel the way that is "appropriate," or we can pick our own road.

An ultimate higher power can be what we choose to feel the presence of or we might choose the God of the Jewish people, or the Christians, or pure logic and proven facts. Anything we choose is fine because we have free will.

Margog – Let me just first say, I am touched by your beauty within, it illumanates in your post and thank you so much for addressing me and taking the time to read my post. It makes me smile :)

Don't get me wrong, I do love life, my husband, family and others. When I say that my life without God's love would be bleek, by that I mean, when I see the starving children in this country and others, it would devastate me so much more, to not know that God is right there with them, and will ultimately carry them home.

When I see unkindness, or people hurt and devastated, it would kill me that they would have to forever suffer. When I see people stricken with an illness, cancer or any type, I would be at such a loss at all the pain. But having God's love in my heart, I have such a peace, as I know God will take care of them and protect them. That, this life is just a preliminary, to the ultimate one that awaits us.

I think that's more of what I mean, that such things as that would be so hard to digest, without knowing that God has a bigger plan for all those who do suffer.

I've never questioned my faith, that I may be wrong. Actually, it's the one area in my life, that I never did wonder if I may not be right. All other areas, I basically question all the time, it keeps my mind open to learn new things.

The reason that I never have questioned, as God has been so good to me, and I always feel His love and protection. I also feel His disappointment with me, when I go wrong or do wrong.

Margog, you sound as though you have a beautiful spirituality within you. You hold on to that. It's no different then any other type of spirituality, it may just be defined differently, but I can tell, you carry a great deal of love for all within you, and that is truly what it is all about.

Yes, there are many different faiths all of which I do respect. I've always just defined it for myself, that all faiths are just roads to Our loving Father.

I don't think God wants us all to be exactly the same, that is why he gave us free will, but He does want us to carry the type of love that you do, within our hearts, for each other.

Bless the beautiful person that you are.

I don't have much time right now to respond to any of these posts, but I wanted to recommend a book to you, Allheart, if you haven't already read it.

Life of Pi, by Yan Martel. I think you'd really really enjoy it.

I don't have much time right now to respond to any of these posts, but I wanted to recommend a book to you, Allheart, if you haven't already read it.

Life of Pi, by Yan Martel. I think you'd really really enjoy it.

Thank you so much Margog - I never have read of the book, but did just look it up and is sounds wonderful to read. Will be getting it - Thanks again :)

and what do you think that other power out there may be???:rolleyes:

she could ask a rabbi even

Well, don't you see, NOhelp, that other power who created her could be the ocean, or a rock or an animal. Some people actually believe that, but then we just have to ask but WHO created that ocean, that rock or that animal if it wasn't God with His almighty omnipotent power of creation.

Faith is a gift from God. Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God. But to truly have faith, that is to act and live our lives for our creator, is a gift. One must pray for faith or an increase in faith.

Just another thought. Just because an idea is old does not necessarily mean it is false. In fact, the opposite may be true. To the people of the first century, the writings of The New Testament were current. Like wise for the people of The Old Testament. If The Scriptures were true then, they are true now.

I wasn't indoctrinated when I was growing up. When I was little I 'knew' there had to be something and nobody ever really explained it to me.
Sorry, but I can not accept that. When you were very little you had no idea who you were or what was happening. While growing up you were embedded in religion, so you "learned" religion just as you learned and were stimulated to crawl or to walk, or to "potty", etc.
The continuous process of religious upbringing is a kind of brain washing, so later started thinking that you "knew" there had to be something.

Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to "potty", you would as an older child be house-trained?
Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to religion, you would as an older child have believed in "God"?

:rolleyes:

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Some people actually believe that, but then we just have to ask but WHO created that ocean, that rock or that animal if it wasn't God with His almighty omnipotent power of creation.
So you accept the religious claim of the existence of a deity called "God" with that "God" being the "Creator" - WITHOUT any objective supporting evidence, but you reject scientific supported theories and thesis explaining and (part) supporting the origin of the universe and/or evolution, etc. Scientific theories and thesis that include various cross-linked or multi-supported links?

:rolleyes:

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"Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to religion, you would as an older child have believed in "God"? "


One of my first memories is sitting on the steps listening to my grandmother reading from the bible. I was always taken to church, went to church probably until I was 14 years old.

I don't really believe or not believe in fact, I don't know what to make of all of this religion non religion stuff.. everyone keeps going on about.

I have an elderly neighbor that said his parents never went to church, never discussed the bible, God or religion in the home. He is a die hard believer...

So maybe Nohelps upbringing does not have anything to do with her faith in God.

Faith is a gift from God.
You BELIEVE that Faith is a gift from God.
You BELIEVE that Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God.

"Just because an idea is old does not necessarily mean it is false".
Neither does any (opposing) new idea necessarily mean that it is false !

You BELIEVE that In fact, the opposite may be true.

"If The Scriptures were true then, they are true now".
If you BELIEVE the Scriptures were true than , than they are true now.

Which leaves us again at the basic question about religion : where is the objective supported evidence for the existence of a deity called "God", and for that "God" being the "Creator"?
There is no such evidence. ALL ONE CAN DO IS BELIEVE THAT.

:rolleyes:

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Just as I suspected
Wangdoodle did not say fact he did not say this IS the way it is
Wangdoodle simply stated his opinion and Cred has to make an issue with
The YOU Believe

Dah YEAH it is his post so whatever he says in HIS post is what HE believes

Wangdoodle doesn't need objective support for what he believes he can share what he believes and *most* of us can accept it as what he believes without the I BELIEVE
It goes without saying

What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

Margog's question was What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

NOT where is the objective supported evidence for the existence of a deity called "God", and for that "God" being the "Creator"?:rolleyes:

Let's set up a situation, suppose that you are standing on a clift and the ground gives away beneath you and you drop for a long ways but you see a tree root and you grab it. Since you have not been able to find any other power that might save you, but since you have heard of GOD when you were young you call out to GOD to save you. A voice from above says, do you have faith, and you say yes I do. Then the voice says if you have faith turn loose of the tree root. If you really have faith in GOD you will follow that faith and turn loose of the root not knowing what was in store for you. To me that would be a true faith.

Faith is a gift from God. Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God. But to truly have faith, that is to act and live our lives for our creator, is a gift. One must pray for faith or an increase in faith.

Just as I suspected . Wangdoodle did not say fact he did not say this IS the way it is wangdoodle simply stated his opinion and Cred has to make an issue with
The YOU BELEIVE
"Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !


wangdoodle doesn't need objective support for what he believes
True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE!!

Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

:rolleyes:

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"Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !


True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE !!!

Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

:rolleyes:

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EXACTLY it is what he believes and the question was What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

So you still haven't answered my question why do people have to include this is what I believe or you feel they are stating what they say as them insisting it is fact?

EXACTLY it is what he believes
Yes, and that is precisely the problem. The questions "what is faith about" and "how can you believe" is answered with what he believes. An example of circular argumentation : I believe it because I believe it...

A LOGICAL "NO" "NO" !!!

:rolleyes:

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"Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !


True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE !!!

Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

:rolleyes:

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You still haven't answered my question which has been why you must emphasis that is what you believe? You CLAIM you do not do that but everybody can see you do.
There are posts after posts where you point out that is what you believe it is not fact where is your objective support.
We all agree that is what they believe so why keep pointing it out with a new reply to state that is what we believe.
I have a feeling you do not want to answer the question and we are just going to keep going around and around about it.


P.S. I don't care if you don't believe that when I was 2 years old and even older that I knew there was something more. I was never taught or told anything religious until I was around 12.

You still haven't answered my question which has been why you must emphasis that is what you believe?
My main theme here on Religious discussions is not what I believe, but the total lack of objective support for religious claims.
And I see that you changed directions, now you realize that what Wangdoodle stated is what he believes, and that it is an example of circular argumentation : I believe it because I believe it...

A LOGICAL "NO" "NO" !!!

:D

·

I GUESS IT IS THE LANGUAGE BARRIER
I NEVER changed directions I never said it was not wangdoodle believes
I said it is a given that that is what HE BELIEVES and he does not have to STATE he believes it every time he (or any of us) states what we believe!
Just as you state that atheism is not a religion. Religion is not a science it is a belief so why do you have to emphasis that is what you believe after people's posts?
STILL waiting for you to answer:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I said it is a given that that is what he believes and he does not have to state he believes it every time he (or any of us) states what we believe!
I disagree. Until there is objective supporting evidence for "God" to exist and be the "Creator", everything in Christianity is just nothing more than a lot of hot air that people BELIEVE in.

You may believe from me whatever you want, but if you use what you believe as argument, you should add "I believe that" in front of that argument.

It's as simple as that, and has nothing to do with language, but with logic and clarity of argumentation.

:)

·

Well it is YOUR hang up because we all know that when we state our opinion we do not have to say this is my opinion or this is my belief. I know I will never add it to anything I say because I do not see the need to express my beliefs or opinions with I believe or my opinion is... Just like I do not see the need to distinguish I love you. There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends I love you but not sexual love every time I tell them I love them

GET OVER IT! :)

Well it is YOUR hang up because we all know that ....
Oh, you say you know... But do you also SHOW that properly ?
All I see here at this board is loads of Christian babble and claims, but when it comes to showing real support for all that there only is icy silence...


There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends I love you ...
How WRONG you are on that ! You should say that often, but - even more important - you should show that in your deeds just as well (if not more even), because if you don't do it that way, your words become just another load of easy hot air.

:rolleyes:

·

You must love 'babble and complains' cause you keep coming back for more.

My statement WAS (before you dropped off the entire statement... There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends 'I love you but not sexual love' every time I tell them I love them. All I have to do is say I love you and it goes without saying it is not a sexual love.
So it is YOUR OPINION that I am WRONG!

My statement WAS (before you dropped off the entire statement.....There are at least 6 or 7 forms of love but I don't need to say to my kids or parents or friends 'I love you but not sexual love' every time I tell them I love them. All I have to do is say I love you and it goes without saying it is not a sexual love.
So it is YOUR OPINION that I am WRONG!
My statement was not wrong. You just make your posts just too complicated as that suits your purpose.
When we talk about love between people, that excludes logically sexual love, unless we express that part clearly.
Love has to be expressed frequently, but not only in word, but just as well in deed.
THAT is what I stated. Nothing else. That that does not suit you... that is your own problem, not mine...

My option is to go to the beach now where lot's of sunshine and a nice breeze is awaiting me...
Adios!

:rolleyes:

·

Please, I didn't intend this to be a post for debate or arguments... I just wanted to know how people can believe in something they don't have conclusive evidence for... and if they do have evidence, what is it? How do they progress from feeling there is something more to understanding what that something more is and being confident about it, especially when there are so many ideas out there.

That's all.

If God was all loving and all powerful there would not be suffering. If God is a father he is abusive and cruel. What kind of father would let his children starve? The only way you can justify such evil is by saying 'we have free choice' which is BS. Again if you are a parent and your child wants to cut their hand off with a knife are you going to let them do? Of course not. So how the hell can you say a loving God would let the holocaust happen? If the devil is involved why does God not stop him? If God is all powerful he should be able to stop Satan.

God is either all powerful and evil. Or he is not all powerful and loving. But no person in their right mind can say God is all powerful and loving but lets war happen because we choose to do so.

Sorry margog
I think the only thing we can say is evidence is our deep conviction for the most part.

You might like this link

Science and the Bible (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml)

Yes, I made a statement that I believe to be true. I live my life as if my faith is true. If I did not believe it to be true I would live my life differently. There are a number of reasons as to why I believe in God. However, I have not seen Him face to face, so to speak. I referred to the Scriptures because I accept the testimony of those eye witnesses, and their willingness to die for their testimony. Many people believe they were liars. I do not.

What the heck is faith all about? To me, it is about acting on what you believe to be true.
Like driving my car. I do not know with 100% assurance that when I step on the breaks they will work. I have, however good reason to believe they will. So, I act on this believe and drive. If I did not believe my breaks would work, I would not drive the car. This is how the Apostles and the first century Christians lived their life. They had faith in Christ that he would welcome them into Heaven at the end of their earthly lives.

If God was all loving and all powerful there would not be suffering. If God is a father he is abusive and cruel. What kind of father would let his children starve? The only way you can justify such evil is by saying 'we have free choice' which is BS. Again if you are a parent and your child wants to cut their hand off with a knife are you going to let them do? Of course not. So how the hell can you say a loving God would let the holocaust happen? If the devil is involved why does God not stop him? If God is all powerful he should be able to stop Satan.

God is either all powerful and evil. Or he is not all powerful and loving. But no person in their right mind can say God is all powerful and loving but lets war happen because we choose to do so.

Hi f104 - Oh how the starving children weigh on my heart as well. But it is not God who allows it. It's you and I. Do I need as many clothes in my closet, or rooms in my house? NO, it's disgraceful on my part with so much hunger in the world. It's up to all of God's children to see that the hunger stops, that the war ceases. These things are not at God's hands but ours. Why doesn't God stop these things? He does and He will, once we enter His Kingdom, where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil.

If all negative would be wiped away with God's loving hands, this world would be endless, we would live forever on this earth, and earth is not where we ultimately are to be, we are to be home with Him.

But it is not God who allows it. It's you and I.
With all respect : based on the Christian "God" and it's powers and demands : if "God" does not want little children to suffer, than they would not suffer , no matter what adults would do.
I assume the adults who mistreated the children would be annihilated on the spot.
But they are not annihilated, and many children keep suffering. The following conclusions can be drown (any one of these is/can be valid) :

- "God" does not have the power to annihilate those who do not follow his instructions.
- "God" does not care about the children and their suffering.
- "God" perhaps does not exist at all


Why doesn't God stop these things? He does and He will, once we enter His Kingdom, where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil.
That must be the worst clincher I have heard for days. Let's analyze this a little :

"Why doesn't God stop these things?" : See 3 conclusions above.

"He does and He will" : that is what you believe. But is it true? Why? You have any objective supporting evidence (OSE) for that ?

"once we enter His Kingdom... " : how convenient : nobody will ever return to confirm or reject .....

"where there is no starvation or war or hatred or evil" : that is what you believe. But is it true? You have any objective supporting evidence (OSE) for that ?

4 different wild religious unsupported claims within one single A4 line sentence... Really...


If all negative would be wiped away with God's loving hands, this world would be endless, we would live forever on this earth, and earth is not where we ultimately are to be, we are to be home with Him.
"God's loving hands" allow children to suffer, starve from hunger, die from disease and war, drown in flooding, be torn into pieces and eaten by wild animals, etc. What a loving hands that are... Where I agree with you is that every human being is co-guilty on that.
That is precisely why I so often refer to every Christian's Mission, when it is here "word galore" but a "deed absence". The more some people THINK or HOPE they spread the word, the less they pass the word in their deeds...

Oh boy !

Allheart : you are kidding yourself with that... Are you so afraid for some hereafter and for some final judgment that you really believe all that cr*p ? I hardly can believe that you do... Have you lost all contact with reality ?

:(

·

LOL Cred, yeah reality really isn't my thing.

No Cred, I do not fear the after life not one bit. You have no idea what great joy it brings me that some of my love ones have that eternal peace.

Do I fear my losing entrance to the Kindgom of God - Yes I do. It's not a frightful fear,
But it's something I do want in my heart to be with God and with my loved ones once again.

You shouldn't think harsh of me because I believe with all my heart these things Cred. I am only sharing them with you. To be quite honest, that is my reality.

I am only sharing them with you. To be quite honest, that is my reality.
I tried not to be harsh on you, Allheart. Sorry if that appears to be that way to you.
From me you may believe whatever suits you! But at least take the alternative (reality) also into option!


...but it's something I do want in my heart to be with God and with my loved ones once again.
I can't accept that it will ever happen, Allheart. Dead is dead. Another reason for me to be an active Secular Humanist, and someone who communicates with the for him dear ones to let them know I love them. When I lived in Africa my mother died, and I had a hard time to get to terms with that (... IF I had written, IF I had phoned, IF I had... ) That was a hard lesson for the rest of my life, and I (try to) transfer that lesson to all that are dear to me. And therefore also to you! :)

You will never see anybody back, Allheart. You may believe that of course, but it won't bring them back in reality. Focus on what you can do now and on those who live now, and keep those who died with you in your heart.

(Another suggestion : Add a directory with photo's of all of those that are dear to you to "Documents and settings". Go to configuration panel and set display protection of your monitor to 60 seconds. Switch to slide show the photos in that directory) Wonderful !

:) :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

From me you may believe whatever suits you!

I can't accept that it will ever happen, Allheart. Dead is dead.

:) :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

From me you may believe whatever suits you. It doesn't matter what you accept.
Stuff happens whether you accept it or not. When we die if you find out you are wrong
You will not be able to say whether you accept it or not.

When we die if you find out you are wrong you will not be able to say whether you accept it or not.
As in so many times with similar responses I have stated: that is a clincher. There is no need for me to assume that possibility until the "hereafter" you believe in has been proved to exist in the first place... Pascal's wager has been dismissed many - MANY - years ago as an invalid proposition.

:D

·

I am not talking about you assuming or not assuming or believing or not believing.
I am talking end of life, you die, you find out there IS a hereafter.
IF there is a hereafter it does not matter if you accept that or not
IT WILL BE IF IT IS no matter what your thoughts or beliefs during your time on earth.

IF there is a hereafter it does not matter if you accept that or not

Yes, sure. Than I better review my position towards eating pasta, as I have to be prepared to meet the Spaghetti monster also...

:D :D :D :D :D

·

. . . I better review my position towards eating pasta, as I have to be prepared to meet the Spaghetti monster also ...

:D :D :D :D :D

·

And that's just the tip of the ice berg...
:D

The interesting part is.. YOU don't know what happens after death and neither does anyone else. BECAUSE you choose to believe there is nothing after this life, then that is a choice, and thus your perception. It isn't based on facts because there is nothing proven that says what happens after you die. YES your body dies, but there is energy within you and what happens to it is unknown. People may call it a spirit, or whatever but nonetheless it is energy that lives within us. I have never assumed or expected everyone to agree with my Opinion or belief of what happens, I have always made clear what my own perspective is, while still being respectful and aware of the way others think.
The sad part is, you mock and joke what you don't even understand. It really is ignorance at its best. I have never thought science or evolution, aren't real or true or even correct. I simply said that they don't have to exist without a realization of a greater force, energy, "GOD" or whatever you want to call it. They do not have to be mutually exclusive in order for each to exist.

You are just as hung up on your way of thinking as a religious zealot.
Whether you meet the spaghetti monster, or your creator is not something any of us will know or understand until it happens. JUST don't discount what you don't know because the energy that exists within everything living, GOES ON.. how that is interpreted and LABELED is different for each person.. THAT IS WHAT I mean.. I am not here to dispute scientific evidence but there are things that science cannot explain, universal mysteries of our solar system that cannot be explained, so don't think that your awareness of science and evolution explains everything because it doesn't. YOU just cannot think beyond it.

The interesting part is.. YOU don't know what happens after death and neither does anyone else. BECAUSE you choose to believe there is nothing after this life, then that is a choice, and thus your perception. It isn't based on facts because there is nothing proven that says what happens after you die. YES your body dies, but there is energy within you and what happens to it is unknown. People may call it a spirit, or whatever but nonetheless it is energy that lives within us. I have never assumed or expected everyone to agree with my PERSONAL opinion or belief of what happens, I have always made clear what my own perspective is, while still being respectful and aware of the way others think.
The sad part is, you mock and joke what you don't even understand. It really is ignorance at its best. I have never thought science or evolution, aren't real or true or even correct. I simply said that they don't have to exist without a realization of a greater force, energy, "GOD" or whatever you want to call it. They do not have to be mutually exclusive in order for each to exist.

You are just as hung up on your way of thinking as a religious zealot.
Whether you meet the spaghetti monster, or your creator is not something any of us will know or understand til it happens. JUST don't discount what you don't know because the energy that exists withing everything living, GOES ON.. how that is interpreted and LABELED is different for each person.. THAT IS WHAT I mean.. I am not here to dispute scientific evidence but there are things that science cannot explain, universal mysteries of our solar system that cannot be explained, so don't think that your awareness of science and evolution explains everything because it doesn't. YOU just cannot think beyond it.


EXACTLY!
They have N0 concept on what if they are wrong and DO have to face a judgment day when it will be T00 late and N0 talking their way out of it with their arguments.

Margog85 (may I call you margo?)--

Unless I missed it, you haven't said how old you are, but you remind me of my twentysomething self. I also was raised in the cocoon of The One True Church (different denomination, same concept), and found myself questioning and doubting more and more of what everybody around me accepted as being self-evidently true without comment, much less earnest discussion or soul searching.

What I admire most in your post is the unflinching honesty with which you are confronting your loss of belief. It takes a lot of courage to leave the group and strike out on your own as an individual. It isn't an easy path, and I have sometimes almost (but not quite, not really) envied the friends of my youth who stayed within the cocoon and made a life and career completely enclosed and encased therein.

I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof... As far as I've been able to learn (and I have a Ph.D. so you can trust me on this), mathematics is the only field of human endeavor where "proof" is a meaningful concept. Oh, sure, lawyers throw the term around a lot, but there's always some qualifier, "beyond a reasonable doubt", "by a preponderance of the evidence" or some such logically squishy concept.

So if it's proof you really want, study mathematics. Everything else is inference and interpretation.


A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists... If you can't, you can't, so stop wasting your effort and attention trying to do the impossible. Accept it, and let it go. There are far more useful things to do with your mind than worry over your inability to believe. I tend to think the difference between people in this regard is either genetic or very early (embryonic) developmental. Some brains are wired that way, some aren't. It can't be helped.


I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something...
There you go reminding me of myself again. Maybe we both have kind of a minimalist transcendental mind function. It seems like it would be much easier to either have none at all, or else to be fully connected. This having one foot on either side of the crack between the worlds can be unnerving, I'll vouch for that.

But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?
Speaking only for myself, I have decided to treat this as is a problem that doesn't need to be solved.

I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics. Either they have a personal subjective conviction, (which you obviously don't have) or they take somebody else's word for it (which you apparently can't do). It's one of the many ways people differ from one another. People who would kind of, almost, like to believe the prevailing myths of their culture, but can't really, have probably existed nearly universally, but always as a minority, except possibly during times of great social upheaval.

I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago... I would suggest that you reexamine your assumption that whatever-it-is is "out there" and fully approachable by means of observation and reason.

Your will directs your attention. Whether you direct your attention toward the inward, subjective realm, or into the outward, objective world, you will eventually encounter the boundary between Self and Not-Self.

Like every boundary, it's fuzzy if you examine it closely enough.

I wish you godspeed on your quest.

I tried not to be harsh on you, Allheart. Sorry if that appears to be that way to you.
From me you may believe whatever suits you! But at least take the alternative (reality) also into option!


I can't accept that it will ever happen, Allheart. Dead is dead. Another reason for me to be an active Secular Humanist, and someone who communicates with the for him dear ones to let them know I love them. When I lived in Africa my mother died, and I had a hard time to get to terms with that (... IF I had written, IF I had phoned, IF I had ...) That was a hard lesson for the rest of my life, and I (try to) transfer that lesson to all that are dear to me. And therefore also to you! :)

You will never see anybody back, Allheart. You may believe that of course, but it won't bring them back in reality. Focus on what you can do now and on those who live now, and keep those who died with you in your heart.

(Another suggestion : Add a directory with photo's of all of those that are dear to you to "Documents and settings". Go to configuration panel and set display protection of your monitor to 60 seconds. Switch to slide show the photos in that directory) Wonderful !



·


Hi Cred,

I am so sorry to hear about your Mom. But I will believe for you, that Mom is right there with you and watching over you. There will always be "ifs" and " I should haves" with those that we love, but know in your heart that the love you have for her was and is known by her. Never doubt that.

My loved ones are no longer here, but they do have life Cred, an eternal life. There is not one loved one that I laid to rest, that didn't have the most beautiful look of peace over there face, I couldn't even cry during the viewings, because the look of peace, gave me great joy for them and great peace.

I will tell you this, I firmly believe, that I, Allheart, sadly will not be going directly to heaven. I hope I am wrong, but in my heart and mind, I think there is no way, I am going directly there, when I look and see the suffering of those children, we discussed before. Now, in my heart and mind, they have a direct route. I also believe in purgatory, where those who do believe in God, but still need to atone for their sins, will go.

How's that grab you ;)

Cred, I'm sorry, I know you weren't being harsh with me, but I want you to understand, that I am in no way trying to jam my beliefs down your throat. I am just sharing and I really should thank you, seriously, for the more I share, the more you bring my beliefs to the surface, and the stronger they become.

Thank you for the suggestion about the slide show. What a beautiful memorial to those we do love and still cherish.

margog85 (may I call you margo?)--

Unless I missed it, you haven't said how old you are, but you remind me of my twentysomething self. I also was raised in the cocoon of The One True Church (different denomination, same concept), and found myself questioning and doubting more and more of what everybody around me accepted as being self-evidently true without comment, much less earnest discussion or soul searching.

What I admire most in your post is the unflinching honesty with which you are confronting your loss of belief. It takes a lot of courage to leave the group and strike out on your own as an individual. It isn't an easy path, and I have sometimes almost (but not quite, not really) envied the friends of my youth who stayed within the cocoon and made a life and career completely enclosed and encased therein.
As far as I've been able to learn (and I have a Ph.D., so you can trust me on this), mathematics is the only field of human endeavor where "proof" is a meaningful concept. Oh, sure, lawyers throw the term around a lot, but there's always some qualifier, "beyond a reasonable doubt", "by a preponderance of the evidence" or some such logically squishy concept.

So if it's proof you really want, study mathematics. Everything else is inference and interpretation.

If you can't, you can't, so stop wasting your effort and attention trying to do the impossible. Accept it, and let it go. There are far more useful things to do with your mind than worry over your inability to believe. I tend to think the difference between people in this regard is either genetic or very early (embryonic) developmental. Some brains are wired that way, some aren't. It can't be helped.


There you go reminding me of myself again. Maybe we both have kind of a minimalist transcendental mind function. It seems like it would be much easier to either have none at all, or else to be fully connected. This having one foot on either side of the crack between the worlds can be unnerving, I'll vouch for that.

Speaking only for myself, I have decided to treat this as is a problem that doesn't need to be solved.
Either they have a personal subjective conviction, (which you obviously don't have) or they take somebody else's word for it (which you apparently can't do). It's one of the many ways people differ from one another. People who would kind of, almost, like to believe the prevailing myths of their culture, but can't really, have probably existed nearly universally, but always as a minority, except possibly during times of great social upheaval.
I would suggest that you reexamine your assumption that whatever-it-is is "out there" and fully approachable by means of observation and reason.

Your will directs your attention. Whether you direct your attention toward the inward, subjective realm, or into the outward, objective world, you will eventually encounter the boundary between Self and Not-Self.

Like every boundary, it's fuzzy if you examine it closely enough.

I wish you godspeed on your quest.


OG you have such a beautiful way of expressing yourself and very complicated issues.

Margog - I respect and admire the beauty you have within. Just the very fact, that you were only seeking answers, or explanations, but didn't wish any conflict, is a beauty that is rare indeed.

Be proud of the beautiful person you are.

There is not one loved one that I laid to rest, that didn't have the most beautiful look of peace over there face ...
I'm also a volunteer at a Secular Humanist Hospes. So I get into contact with many people who's "candles" are almost finished and only flicker in the onsetting night.
We do get many Christian people here too, though most are Humanists or other non-believers. Guess who are dying the most peaceful... Without any fear or fight... Completely at easy with what is happening... Many actually smile or seem happy to let go.
Clue : none of them have Bibles at their bedsides or have read them...


How's that grab ya ;)
I know that fear to have a visit purgatory first rather well : my wife thinks along similar lines...
And I know that pair of cold Roman Catholic feet against me every night... What do you do with them ?

:D :D :D :D :D

·

I used to be Christian... I was rifling through some old Christian CDs of mine today, and got to thinking... I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something... But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics. I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago...

I guess I just don't get it. How can people understand whatever force or energy or god there is so much to be able to believe something like Christianity, which has so many specifics (that god sent his son, who was also god, to save humanity from their sin... and this son sent the holy spirit, which is also god... that god is three in one...)

I feel like 'faith' is a cop-out when you can't give any real answers for why you believe the things you do... and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things...

How do you believe something that you can't prove, that you can't even REALLY understand? I just don't get it... I know I used to do it, but looking back, I feel like I 'believed' so strongly because I needed to do so... and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly. Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own? And maybe some people are never able to do that, or get caught up in believing in something out of convenience and never progress beyond it?

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.
Believe what you feel inside.. it's not always for us to know the what for's and the why's about everything. Remember this.. to interpret for yourself, and not take things so literally.. there is something deep inside each of us that makes us yearn to know more, a spark if you will. People say there is so much chaos in the world and in the universe.. I think if you look more closely you'll see an order to things that only a divine intelligence can comprehend. Sooner or later, we'll know...

ordinaryguy-

Just wanted to take a minute to let you know how much I appreciate your post. It definitely was very helpful to me and gave me a lot to think about.

I am 22, so you were right on the money with that one... =)

And your post reminded me of a question a theology professor of mine once posed- is life a question to be answered or a mystery to be lived? It struck me as an important question when we discussed it years ago, although at the time I couldn't make as much sense of it as I can now... And after giving it some thought... I guess I'll have to just get comfortable with believing that it's a mystery to be lived. Because when it all comes down to it, because I'm not going to have the answers I want.

A lot of times, I feel like... like religion gives people answers to their questions. And helps ease their minds. But for me, it just stirs up more questions, and I get frustrated with answers that I don't feel REALLY answer my question- that seem to just give an explanation to appease me. My mother used to say that as you get older, you don't have more answers- you just learn to become more comfortable with the questions... and maybe that's what I need to learn to do.

I'm also a volunteer at a Secular Humanist Hospes. So I get into contact with many people who's "candles" are almost finished and only flicker in the onsetting night.
We do get many Christian people here too, though most are Humanists or other non-believers. Guess who are dying the most peaceful .... Without any fear or fight .... Completely at easy with what is happening .... Many actually smile or seem happy to let go.
Clue : none of them have Bibles at their bedsides or have read them ....


I know that fear to have a visit purgatory first rather well : my wife thinks along similar lines ....
And I know that pair of cold Roman Catholic feet against me every night ... What do you do with them ?

:D :D :D :D :D

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You pray they get warm :D

You pray they get warm :D
The feet or the humanists??

:D

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ordinaryguy-

Just wanted to take a minute to let you know how much I appreciate your post. It definitely was very helpful to me and gave me a lot to think about.
Thank you for saying so. Your sincere appreciation is my reward.


And your post reminded me of a question a theology professor of mine once posed- is life a question to be answered or a mystery to be lived? It struck me as an important question when we discussed it years ago, although at the time I couldn't make as much sense of it as I can now... And after giving it some thought... I guess I'll have to just get comfortable with believing that it's a mystery to be lived. Because when it all comes down to it, because I'm not going to have the answers I want.
Yes, I'm a big fan of mystery. The rational intellect is a powerful puzzle solving mechanism, so much so that it can hardly be restrained from turning perfectly good mysteries into insoluble puzzles.


A lot of times, I feel like... like religion gives people answers to their questions. And helps ease their minds. But for me, it just stirs up more questions, and I get frustrated with answers that I don't feel REALLY answer my question- that seem to just give an explanation to appease me. My mother used to say that as you get older, you don't have more answers- you just learn to become more comfortable with the questions... and maybe that's what I need to learn to do.
Yes, and hopefully learn to ask better questions. The better the question, the more satisfying and self-evident the answer tends to be, in my experience. A frustrating answer is often a clue that exposes a foolish or ill-considered question.

The feet or the humanists ???

:D

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What you hoping for miracles?? Go for the feet my friend ;) :)

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

I'd love to.


and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly.

What did you find?


I used to be Christian... I was rifling through some old Christian CDs of mine today, and got to thinking... I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

That is a very reasonable attitude. Although "proof" is a relative term. As the saying goes, "for some no proof is necessary, for others no proof is ever enough."


A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

There's a lot of "can't believe"s here. Somewhere in this message you said that you found something else, so obviously you found something which you can believe. Where did you find this? Did others tell you about it? Or did you "make it up" on your own?


I feel like... there's something else out there.

That is an excellent place to start! We have a point in common.


Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something... But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

For me, it was FAITH in people.

What I mean is, that I had the same feeling as yourself. As you may know, I was atheist, there came a point in my life when I realized that there something else out there. Suddenly, I looked at the world with different eyes. Look at a little child, can you imagine anything so grand occurring by accident? I couldn't anymore. I knew that something or Someone had created them.

But who?

Luckily I had learned many years before, from a wise old Muslim in fact, that "the man who relies solely on his own knowledge is poor indeed." That means that there is an answer out there for virtually every question. All we have to do is find it.

Because if we can't find it, we are doomed to reinvent the wheel. To do it over again by trial and error.

So I searched. I sifted through all the religions with which I was familiar. Hindu, Buddha, Islam, the Protestant sects, mainly Luther's doctrines and finally, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was last, because having been born of Catholic parents, I was convinced that was not the true faith. But, after a few years of reading and comparing doctrines, the Catholic Church convinced me that it is the true Faith.


I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics. I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago...

That is where "faith" comes in, again.

I realized a long time ago that I had to have faith in people. This was long before my conversion. I mean people my cars, my house, take care of me and protect me personally (i.e. police).

Let me give you an example. I'm one of those rare men that actually ask for directions. I travel quite a bit and whenever I'm in a strange town, I ask people how to find a motel, a Walmart, or something. And people are genuinely helpful.

Of course, this isn't foolproof. Sometimes people, thought acting in good faith, give me the wrong information. And sometimes, I don't understand the information they give me. So, I have to be "discerning" as to what I believe and what I don't.


I guess I just don't get it. How can people understand whatever force or energy or god there is so much to be able to believe something like Christianity, which has so many specifics (that god sent his son, who was also god, to save humanity from their sin... and this son sent the holy spirit, which is also god... that god is three in one... )

Again, that's a matter of faith in people. I believe my history teachers from school. I didn't see or ever meet the people they spoke about, but I believe them none the less.


I feel like 'faith' is a cop-out when you can't give any real answers for why you believe the things you do...

I had faith in my school teachers. I thought they were telling me things for my own good and I believe that they believed what they were teaching me.

My parents were the first to teach me about religion. I feel as though they also were telling me something they meant for my good.

I got to a point when I questioned what my parents taught me. I left all that behind. Then one day, I realized that they were correct, at least in part. Then after searching all around, I came back to what my parents taught me.

The good thing about all that searching is that now, I can give an answer for virtually everything in which I believe.


and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things...

That is true.


How do you believe something that you can't prove, that you can't even REALLY understand?

You do that all the time. We all do.

I think you are one of those who believe in evolution. Can you really understand it?


I just don't get it... I know I used to do it, but looking back, I feel like I 'believed' so strongly because I needed to do so... and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly. Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own? And maybe some people are never able to do that, or get caught up in believing in something out of convenience and never progress beyond it?

Perhaps. But I once felt satisfied as a nonbeliever. And then, one day, my child was conceived in my wife's womb and I suddenly realized that I was receiving a gift. She, that little beautiful child, was the catalyst for the profound change that happened in my life. I suddenly realized that God existed. From then on the satisfaction of a nonbeliever was paltry and small. I had to thank the Being who gave me my child(ren). And I have never ceased to do so. And may I never cease doing so.


I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

Lets do it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

For example when I saw someone healed in the hospital ER, when I get the doctors reports of wonderous things he does.

And what about all the people who are not healed and go on to die a suffering death? I suppose then it's just 'God works in mysterious ways', and 'we can't know the mind of God', huh?

And what about all the people who are not healed and go on to die a suffering death? I suppose then it's just 'God works in mysterious ways', and 'we can't know the mind of God', huh?
Yeah... but you know : if it shows negative it is not caused by the deity but by humanity.
And when it shows positive it is not due to humanity but to the deity to be thankful for.
And that is precisely what this topic question is all about... ;)
Faith and belief are the religious alternatives for logical thinking, and are in stark contrast with checking claims against objective supported evidence...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

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We do not have to prove anything because faith is to be believed not proven or it would not be faith so that is where your lengthy posts of us having to prove anything miss the point.
So none of what you say is any more correct/relevant than us saying prove prove it is not.

Amen!

I don't believe in science. I think it is a group of people who agree to agree that certain things are true and that other things are not. I believe they make up a bunch of stuff and write it down as facts, so that they can all remember what they agreed to. I also believe that most of 'history' is the same way. It was written by a lot of different people, over many years and most long after the 'event' occurred, so why should I believe it?


I still do not understand why those people who do not believe in God, try so hard to 'prove' He does not exist. As I said before, I do not believe in two-headed monsters... but I don't spend time or energy trying to prove they do not exist. I have no need to disprove it to someone else in order to support,validate,corroborate or defend my disbelief.




To address the original question: I believe God is God because I know that I know that I know that He is and He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. And woe to those who do not. He is not a crutch, He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't understand that either, but I believe it. Man is spirit, soul and body. Made in the Image of God.

If we had proof, it would not be faith and it is faith that brings salvation. Faith in the One who gave Himself for us, so that we would have a way to the Father and eternal life. Everyone will live forever, but only those who believe will inherit eternal life and live in the Presence of God forever.


Faith is hope in what you cannot yet see. For if you could see it, why would you still hope for it.

Blessed are those who believe without seeing, Jesus said to doubting Thomas.

Therefore, I am blessed.

Yeah .... but you know : if it shows negative it is not caused by the deity but by humanity.
And when it shows positive it is not due to humanity but to the deity to be thankful for.
And that is precisely what this topic question is all about .... ;)
Faith and belief are the religious alternatives for logical thinking, and are in stark contrast with checking claims against objective supported evidence ....

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

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Faith and belief are the religious alternatives for logical thinking, and are in stark contrast with checking claims against objective supported evidence...

I'm sorry, I missed the thread that told of the objective supported evidence... evidence of what?

I know the feeling! Besides that : NOBODY can prove god/gods exist. That's the basis of religious BELIEF.
It's the weakness of religion, and the reason why theists can only make claims about their beliefs. And for a smaller group of theists the reason to be aggressive against other views that often can be supported by objective evidence for their views, and therefore becomes some kind of threat to those who's faith is tottering.


You got that spot on, Margo!

;)

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Originally Posted by margog85
I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

History books were not 'inspired by' a god, but they were written by men over a number of years. do you believe history books? Was there really a 100 year war?

I don't believe in science.

This is just sad. You may as well say I don't believe in math. Or I don't believe in education. It's especially a shame, because you are obviously well read and educated.

I can only hope you don't have children and if you do, that they aren't as proud of their ignorance as you seem to be.


As I said before, I don't believe in two-headed monsters... but I don't spend time or energy trying to prove they don't exist.

Maybe you would if a group of people were trying to get two-headed monster intelligent design taught in schools. Or fought to stop stem cell research and other ways to help humanity because it goes against what the two-headed monster told a few people 2000 years ago, or if wars kept breaking out over disagreements of which land was promised to whom by the two-headed monster, or if some wanted to cut your head off because they believe in a 1-headed monster instead. Then just maybe, you'd want to stop the madness.

I have to admit, when sitting in History class, I too, would think to myself, "How do you know this even happened, as the teacher was reading out of the text book."

But while in religion class, the gift of faith, embraced all I learned, all I heard and all I truly believe.

It's not to say I don't believe the words of history, or what took place, but I did question
How do we truly know.

I think that is because history is of course, so long ago, yet God's love, His prescence, His loving children, are still here and continue to surround us.

I have to admit, when sitting in History class, I too, would think to myself, "How do you know this even happened, as the teacher was reading out of the text book."

But while in religion class, the gift of faith, embraced all I learned, all I heard and all I truly believe.

It's not to say I don't believe the words of history, or what took place, but I did question
how do we truly know.

I think that is because history is of course, so long ago, yet God's love, His prescence, His loving children, are still here and continue to surround us.

Serious question Allheart,

I'm extremely curious how you were able to be skeptical about history, yet managed to cut off this skepticism in the face of the even more incredulous stories you learned from the bible (I'm not knocking you... I didn't question them myself for the first 19 years of my life).

It's been said that religious people are somehow able to compartmentalize their brains and do not apply the same logic to their religious beliefs as they would with any other subject. I find this extremely interesting. Like I said, I was the same way. In my case, I'm quite sure it's because I simply didn't think much about it, or when I did, I shut it out of my mind. As soon as I did start thinking about it (and I had to force myself to do so), I quickly became an unbeliever with regards to religion. I'm just curious what the case is with you.

Hi lobroster,

And I most appreciate you asking and in such a nice way. Thank you.

I think because my faith (which actually comes from my heart and mind) was and is strengthened, everyday, where as history, just remained the same.

History didn't really have a overwhelming effect on my life, but God did and does. To this day, God is with me in my life and it is impossible for me to even question, because His love and guidance is a constant. Now there are times, many times my human self forgets about my faith, but He still is always with me.

I hope I am explaining this right :). It's just that faith is something that does exsist for me.
I can see it, feel it and understand it. I see it in other's works, in the way things turn out,
And it has always been a constant.

In school, there wasn't very much bible study. And I think I am glad about that. During church, of course, the readings are right from the bible, and then the homily which follows, explains the reading.

I was taught in such a loving environement at school, that all I heard and taught, was so very and is so very real to me.

I never for even a minute had any doubts. Nor do I. That's just something I share with you, not meaning to come off strong.

God's love, love of others, that I can understand and hold dear and true, bow and arrows,
Fighting over land, I somewhat understood, some of it made me very sad and glad to be alive during these times then way back then, but it didn't have an impact on my daily life, it didn't enhance or take away from my spiritual base.

Hope at least some of this makes sense.

Faith and belief are the religious alternatives for logical thinking, and are in stark contrast with checking claims against objective supported evidence ....
You mean that logical thinking is completely exchanged for faith and belief ?
Yes, that seems for many here a correct assumption...

:D :D :D :D :D


History books were not 'inspired by a god, but were written by men over a number of years.
From the context and various posts here in this topic it was clear that this referred to the Bible. And the Bible was written by human beings that were claimed to be inspired by the deity referred to as the Christian God.

.

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It's been said that religious people are somehow able to compartmentalize their brains and do not apply the same logic to their religious beliefs as they would with any other subject. I find this extremely interesting. Like I said, I was the same way. In my case, I'm quite sure it's because I simply didn't think much about it, or when I did, I shut it out of my mind. As soon as I did start thinking about it (and I had to force myself to do so), I quickly became an unbeliever with regards to religion. I'm just curious what the case is with you.

Yeah sort of like a discussion on another post about how science is saying that we are hardwired to believe or not believe.

Yeah sorta like a discussion on another post about how science is saying that we are hardwired to believe or not believe.

Now you're getting into the part about belief that fascinates me.

We ARE hardwired to unquestioningly believe our parents and other authority figures as children. It's easy to see how in the past, this has helped us survive. Most things our parents tell us are for our own good and protect us from dangers. 'Don't play with fire', 'don't talk to strangers' is good advice. The problem is, a child has no way of differentiating between good advice and silly advice. So, 'be good because Santa is coming', 'be good so the tooth fairy will leave money if you put a tooth under your pillow', and 'be good because there is an invisible man who answers prayers, and grants life after death', are all equally reasonable to a child.

So it's not religion that we are hardwired to believe, but our parents and authority figures. And for good reason.

Hope at least some of this makes sense.

It DOES make sense. At least the part about your faith and how you feel the goodness of God every day. Personally, I think you're feeling something else and imagining it's God, but I won't argue that point.

But surely there are aspects of the bible that contradict how you feel about God. I'm not just talking about the contradictory and wild stories. I'm talking about some of the ways the bible describes God. As someone who is jealous, and strikes plagues upon thousands of people He is mad at. About how God will allow some of your closest friends and loved ones to burn and suffer in hell for all eternity. I KNOW you don't feel good about that, do you?

So putting your personal relationship with God aside, why aren't you more skeptical about the bible? Especially, if some of it doesn't mesh with your own experience of who God is?

Hi again lobrobster,

Like I was saying earlier, in school and even now, I don't keep my head in the bible, I probably should. So, I guess that's why I don't have any conflict with it.

Keep in mind, God doesn't allow anyone to burn in hell, it's a choice that we make while
Living here on earth. I think and believe, that those who God has blessed with beautiful intelligence and denies that God exsist, are the ones who are in most danger of going to hell. Way before some of those who may have killed or committed some other horrible act.
I say that, because there may be something very wrong with them, and God will know that.

But for those who have been blessed with so very much and then choose to turn away,
They are the ones I truly do fear for the most.

I know it's God's love in my heart and mind and I don't imagine it. Truly I don't. I promise you, he carried me through my entire childhood. And each day, I am so thankful.

You mean that logical thinking is completely exchanged for faith and belief ?
Yes, that seems for many here a correct assumption ....

:D :D :D :D :D


From the context and various posts here in this topic it was clear that this referred to the Bible. And the Bible was written by human beings that were claimed to be inspired by the deity referred to as the Christian God.

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If this seems clear to you that I was referring to the Bible, then your thinking is not clear at all. You are way off, badly mistaken as to what was meant by that statement. Confusion can be a sign that something is medically wrong with you.

Although the Bible does have some history, it is inspired by God And God is able to make sure His Word is correct even though human hands wrote it, God was still in charge and would not allow it to be corrupted.

You are the reason Jesus came into the world to save sinners. To bring us out of darkness into His marvelous light so that we could understand the will of God for our lives and His wonderful plan of redemption.

However we can chose to stay in darkness and only believe what we see. But there will be a time when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God.

If you must wait to see it to believe it, then wait... it won't be that long and then you will believe, but it will be too late to do anything about it.

Faith believes what it cannot see, that's why it is called faith. I hope you find it.

Well I appreciated it. I laughed because it so logical and incontrovertible and so utterly inaccessible to those to whom you are writing. Faith, clearly, is not about logic.

But it does seem unfair for believers to argue that the existence of God is not subject to proof but that unbelievers are under some sort of obligation to justify not believing. I think we should be able to play by the same rules.
I don't think believers think you need to justify not believing. We just wonder why you are on this site if you don't believe or don't want some reason to believe.

There are many sites here for you to visit, so, for all the unbelievers, I would like to ask you, why are you here if you have no desire to learn the truth?

This is just sad. You may as well say I don't believe in math. Or I don't believe in education. It's especially a shame, because you are obviously well read and educated.

I can only hope you don't have children and if you do, that they aren't as proud of their ignorance as you seem to be.



Maybe you would if a group of people were trying to get two-headed monster intelligent design taught in schools. Or fought to stop stem cell research and other ways to help humanity because it goes against what the two-headed monster told a few people 2000 years ago, or if wars kept breaking out over disagreements of which land was promised to whom by the two-headed monster, or if some wanted to cut your head off because they believe in a 1-headed monster instead. Then just maybe, you'd want to stop the madness.
Do you not recognize a jape when you see one? To say I do not believe in science was a droll statement to amuse those who think they are so intelligent yet live in darkness.

First you say I am well read and intelligent then you call me ignorant. Isn't that like saying someone is pretty ugly? By the way my daughter is a doctor, GP, and my son is president of a bank.

And you totally missed my point about the two headed monster. I don't think you are capable of understand the paronomasia, so there is no point in trying to explain it further to you.

I hope you find what you are looking for, which is obviously some foundation for faith in the One True God; Or else you would be on a site other than religion.

I can't imagine why one who does not believe would visit here unless they needed/wanted a reason to believe.

... Well said tsila1777!

I don't think believers think you need to justify not believing. We just wonder why you are on this site if you don't believe or don't want some reason to believe.

There are many sites here for you to visit, so, for all the unbelievers, I would like to ask you, why are you here if you have no desire to learn the truth?Everyone is a believer in something and everyone is a unbeliever in other things. For instance if you are a christian you are an unbeliever/have rejected other religions and gods.

There is no "the truth". That's a word that has been hijacked by a few christian denominations and turned into one with religious overtones. Something that is true depends not on one's religion.

This forum is titled "Religious Discussions" on a question/answer board that covers all subjects and thus all are welcome. Surely you could find aome internet boards where you will surrounded by others who think exactly like you, then you could all agree.

There is no "the truth". That's a word that has been hijacked by a few christian denominations and turned into one with religious overtones.

Hear , hear , hear!!

:rolleyes:

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First you say I am well read and intelligent then you call me ignorant. Isn't that like saying someone is pretty ugly?

They should put the definition for the word 'ignorant' in a FAQ, because no one seems to know what it means. Ignorant does NOT mean dumb, stupid, or intellectually weak. It simply means to have a 'lack of knowledge' about some particular subject. We are ALL ignorant about some things.



]I can't imagine why one who does not believe would visit here unless they needed/wanted a reason to believe.

Because religion causes division and war in the world and clearly some people are capable of doing some pretty scary things based on blind faith. I'm concerned about that and like to see how the theistic mind works. I'd also like to help people think more logically if possible. Again, many people believe only because they have never really taken the time to think about their religion for themselves.

Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye... Jesus is the Truth, and the Life. He said so Himself. Duh!;)

This forum is titled "Religious Discussions" on a question/answer board

What was the question here, do you remember? And is this your answer?

But tell me please, of all the other boards on here, why do you chose this one? will no one answer that question? I realize you have a right to be here, but my question is why are you here, if it is not to find some reason to believe, then tell me why. If you can. If not, tell me why you can't answer, or just continue to ignore the hard questions and make unwitty comments about other things in my post.


"Surely you could find aome/some internet boards where you will surrounded by others who think exactly like you, then you could all agree."

I have tried other boards marked specifically for CHRISTAINS and non-believers and anthesis come in there also. They won't answer my question either, except to say 'they have rights!' It seems to be more and more that everyone has rights except Christians.

So, I wonder, why are 'they' trying to shut us up? Why do they continue to harrass us? Could it be that prophesy is being fulfilled, and the end is drawing near?

You know, I bet that's it!

They should put the definition for the word 'ignorant' in a FAQ, because no one seems to know what it means. Ignorant does NOT mean dumb, stupid, or intellectually weak. It simply means to have a 'lack of knowledge' about some particular subject. We are ALL ignorant about some things.




Because religion causes division and war in the world and clearly some people are capable of doing some pretty scary things based on blind faith. I'm concerned about that and like to see how the theistic mind works. I'd also like to help people think more logically if possible. Again, many people believe only because they have never really taken the time to think about their religion for themselves.

So you do admit you are ignorant. :D

I'm so glad someone is keeping an eye on what causes division and war, and I sure hope, that by monitoring this board, you are able to stop any that should arise. Thank you so much for your sacrifice and dedication.

Christianity is not a religion, it's a way of life. I hate religion. Religion is against God. And blind faith in a religion is a scary thing, indeed!

So I guess we agree on that also; that's two things we have agreed on here, wow that's great isn't it?

Please, I didn't intend this to be a post for debate or arguments... I just wanted to know how people can believe in something they don't have conclusive evidence for... and if they do have evidence, what is it? How do they progress from feeling there is something more to understanding what that something more is and being confident about it, especially when there are so many ideas out there.

That's all.

I'm sorry. You are so right. This should Never have gotten to this point. You asked a question, and you wanted an answer.

This is the best one I have for you: Faith is not based on what we can see, but on what we cannot see.

For if we can see it, then why would we need faith?

Without faith it is impossible to please God, He does everything by faith, He gives you the faith to be saved, and He is only moved by that faith. He is not moved by your needs, wants or anything else, only by faith. He has provided everything anyone needs.

He has already provided everything that everyone needs... but it is obtained by faith.

To understand that "something": God and His Word are One, if you want to understand God, then read His Word. The Word says, He will give wisdom to them that ask Him. Ask Him to give you wisdom and understanding, He is faithful to His Word and He will guide you into all truth.

Thomas, in the Bible, said "unless I see I will not believe", for that he was rebuked by Jesus, and was nicknamed 'doubting thomas'. Jesus said to him, because you see you now believe, but BLESSED, (HAPPY AND TO BE ENVIED) are the ones who believe without seeing.

If you want to base your faith on solid evidence, then I can't help you. No one can. No can prove God or disprove Him. But one who has faith can know for sure that He is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

The Word says, "Hebrews 11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is your solid, conclusive evidence.


How do you make progress, usually slowly.. but through reading His Word, spending time with Him, talking and listening to Him, fasting. But you must first decide to believe, we are given free will. We can chose to believe, some call it blind faith, others call it Grace. Or we can chose to ignore the Precious Gift of Salvation. We are saved by faith through grace and that is not of ourselves but it is a gift from God.




Your faith must be based on God's Word, not what other people say. There are many religions, I hate religion, there are many who would deny God is real, there are many opinions out there, but if you want the answer you seek, then it is in the Word of God and not on this message board.

I pray God will show you the truth, that He Himself will lead and guide you, that His Spirit will come upon you and speak to you as unto a man, I pray God in all His infinite wisdom and power and wonder will send someone, if it be an angel, to talk with you and show you the way. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He is the Only way to God, and He died for your sins and was raised for you justification. I pray you will seek Him with a pure heart, and decide to trust in Him also. I know God hears my prayers, and I know that when I pray He answers me. I give Him thanks now for what He is doing even now in your life and spirit. Receive now by faith and walk in newness of life. Peace and joy forever. In His Holy Name, the Blessed Name of Jesus I pray, Amen! So be it!

But tell me please, of all the other boards on here, why do you chose this one? will no one answer that question? I don't just choose this one, I make posts on many groups just like you. I see you posted in Law, Relationships and Computers. I have already attempted to answer the question if you had read this whole thread.

I noticed your very sarcastic response to lobrobster, I get an idea of what kind of person you are from that.

Yes, I was being sarcasctic, but it was all in fun and I think he will take it that way. If not, I'm sure he will tell me so.

As I didn't read the thread,(or if I did I didn't understand your answer as being an answer) I would like to ask you: do you also monitor this board to prevent wars?

... Well said tsila1777!

Thanks Unk.. :)

Christianity is not a religion, it's a way of life. I hate religion. Religion is against God. And blind faith in a religion is a scary thing, indeed!

I agree with you. Christianity, for me, is considered more as a relation with God.


do you also monitor this board to prevent wars?

Not really but I try to do the best I can to help people. 'cauz here, there seems to be christians in danger!

So you do admit you are ignorant. :D

I'm so glad someone is keeping an eye on what causes division and war, and I sure hope, that by monitoring this board, you are able to stop any that should arise. Thank you so much for your sacrifice and dedication.

Christianity is not a religion, it's a way of life. I hate religion. Religion is against God. And blind faith in a religion is a scary thing, indeed!

So I guess we agree on that also; that's two things we have agreed on here, wow that's great isn't it?

Um..? You totally contradic yourself there, with such conviction that I wonder if you caught it? "Christianity is not a religion, it's a way of life." Religion by deffinition: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, (esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies),.
Take note here--->... usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a "moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." In other words, a way of life, a way of living life, or as it says conducting life. Just thought I'd point that out. No need for hostility, I'm just curious about your belief, that's all. Can often be a view point for understanding one's actions.

Why am I here, same reason as any one I suppose, to learn... Learning, as I've learned, requires us to ask questions, and to add our own thoughts/comments/even emotions. That's how we communicate. Most will areguee that they are right, others are wrong, and seldome do you hear about some one addmitting to being wrong. Right and wrong are just words, implying a meaning, that people believe in. How is it that belief plays a role in what words mean? Well the word it's self is the meaning of it's deffinition, however, some meanings are rather debatable.

Faith for example, means "to have confidence or trust in a person or thing with out the need of proof." (at least in the context I'm using it.) Yet, I've bin told by so many people who "beleive" in a (a religion A.K.A. a Belief.) They say have faith in "such and such", when you ask a question about how they know it's real or not, they try to provide proof. Thus discrediting their statement to have faith, faith has no evidence, but belief does and I've bin confronted by that as well, "why not believe?"

Now on to belief, "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. (precise proof)" (I added the bracketed comment for my own benafit, so no I don't think your dumb.) Any way they provide evidence, or what they believe is proof that their statement is valid. However, I've bin noticing that people are using proof that is not "rigorous proof" So their belief becomes a faith or maybe an opinion. But wait there is a another deffinition for belief: something believed; an opinion or conviction. (A conviction is a firm belief?? ) [Opinion a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. But this contradicts what the others say, about precision, and firm qualities? ] The only thing that seems fixed is that all of these are baised on what we "THINK". Evidence implies something is true, or fauls, that doesn't mean it's absolute. ("Only a sith deals in absolutes!" - General Ben Kenobi) We decide/interpret in our brain, or is it our mind, weather these implications are true, or valid, etc?
Being mindful of what was, what is and what maybe, yet remaining open to the moment and any possibility is very helpful in these types of situations. Helps us understand and learn in a relaxed and non-threatoning way. Nothing can be right and nothing can be wrong, because that is opinion/belief, which seems to be in our heads and abstract: exsisting as a quality or idea rather than a matierial object; theoretical.

As we all know thoughts are in our heads (minds), and no one can prove or disprove they are 100% in our control. So many factors to consider, the brain, which interacts with the body to tell us of and interacts with our environment, which fulfills our needs, which keep us alive, is where the mind dwells; or does it dwell in the spirit, or elsewhere. The mind is abstract, so is the spirit, so does it not make sense that the mind would be within the spirt/ or visversa, not in the brain? Could it be both? How do we tell??

Yes a seemingly never ending riddle to which there does not seem to be an asolute answer. No way of observing, or is there? So what do we know about our thoughts? Well, that is a Psychological (a scientific study of mental processes and behavior.) question to begin with. The reason being: toughts are generally believed to be constructed in the head/brain by our mind. We know the brain is the control center of our body, there for it controls our actions, and responds to stimuli (not an absolute fact, for all we know the mind could be the control senter and the brain a tool to preform tasks with.)

(personally, I think that thoughts are stimuli. Sent from where? Maybe our spirit, by our mind and interpreted within the brain, the sixth sense receptor, and the sixth sense being thought.)

But that's just me and my own belief, I have no "real" evidence of such a claim. So maybe it's a faith thing, though I do not live my life around it. I keep it in mind, let it guid me, but if some one has proof of something else, yet does not disprove my theory, I'll still have faith in it, but I may believe in the other persons evidence. Something more stable, but I don't ignore or discredit the other.

Back to the point, so if thoughts are stimuli, then what is the respons to them? Or are they a response to something else? How do we prove that the brain is a sense receptor for the mind/ or spirit/soul, perhaps they are one of the same? All we know is that the general public has thoughts, and thoughts are influenced by many things. Such as, Biochemistry, neurochemistry of the brain, the body, how what we eat affects the brain, by way of blood, and vitamins, minerals, drugs, etc ,so that's interaction of our mental/abstract self with our Physical self, by way of the elements/ chemicals of the environment sense reseptors/neurons, and such. Once again How the things we consume: sun light, Food, pills and the things we do: eating, sleep, acting (since working out can create endorphines.) affect the chemistry of our brains. Thus affecting how we receive Stimuli from our mind/spirit, or how we interpret that information, and also how we respond to it.

So then does that mean this is a Biological question?? What effects our brains? Well, how we choose to eat, how we choose to act, how we choose to think, how we choose to Feel... Wow wow, Choose to Feel?? I thought feelings were voluntary? True, a portion I'm sure is voluntary, but also a portion we can control. How so, well has any one heard of anger management? What about relaxation programs, and fear thearopy? Well, this is like a Philosophical question now, Why do we choose to feel how we feel?

By what we think, and how we act/ react, and the things we eat, how we "choose" to live. Yes, there are more, but it seems like none of these things have anything to do with out side influences. What about when a loved one dies, or we are forced to do displeasruable, oftain painful things? True, we will feel many things if in a situation where we are forced against our will, but it won't last for ever. Though it may seem harsh to think this way: It was our choice that lead us to this situation, Even if you never met a person, or was asked to walk to a friends house late at night because they "needed" you, you chose to take that step out the door, or if it happens at home, you chose to be at home. (THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT SOME ONE WHO IS RAPPED OR MURDERED IS TO BLAME!! ) It simply means they made a choice, and probably unknowingly walking into a bad situation. See it takes faith to walk out your door, because there is no proof that you will get back safely, just because something is one way previously, doesn't mean it will be that way this time. Every moment is new and fresh. We can learn to cope with such things with counsoling, and learning to live our lives again, being interested in what we are doing, and deciding which direction we are going to take. We do have the past to remind us, but it doesn't have to control us, try be prepared for anything, or rather open and let what will happen happen, and what won't, won't.

Wow this is super long and I"m having a hard time remembering where i am. I think it's time to let you all read this and tell me what you think...

If you're confused as to what the heck this has to do with the topic: "What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?", notice how I've gone and defined a lot of those key words, Faith, belief. Now I'm explaining how our minds/brains/possibly spirits effect one another, and how they interact with one another...

Peace be with you all.

Many Christians have gotten tired of religion because it involves a lot of man's rituals and traditions and less to do about a real relationship with God. I am with Tsila and unknown on that one.
Many religions are so far away from God. The Bible even says so It says many will come in my name and I will say I never knew you. Many say Lord, Lord while their heart is far from him. Christians that are breaking away from religion have more of a heart to heart with God and they realize no man made formulas are going to get them close to God.

Someone once said that religion is man reaching out to God; Christianity is allowing God to reach you

***Religious people go to church on Sunday and live like hell the rest of the week
Real Christians live their faith seven days a week

Do you not recognize a jape when you see one? To say I do not believe in science was a droll statement to amuse those who think they are so intelligent yet live in darkness.

First you say I am well read and intelligent then you call me ignorant. Isn't that like saying someone is pretty ugly? By the way my daughter is a doctor, GP, and my son is president of a bank.

And you totally missed my point about the two headed monster. I don't think you are capable of understand the paronomasia, so there is no point in trying to explain it further to you.

I hope you find what you are looking for, which is obviously some foundation for faith in the One True God; Or else you would be on a site other than religion.

I can't imagine why one who does not believe would visit here unless they needed/wanted a reason to believe.

Just for fun lets say some one simply wanted to learn how you think, why you behave the way you do, or why you believe what you believe, and not so they could validate nor find fault or flaw in your belief. This is not all about your religion, it's about your behavior, and not just yours but every ones! I just want to learn why the religion you believe in makes you behave as you do?? Kind of like a case study, only by personal interaction as aposed to scientific data. Or if it has any effect upon you at all.

Surely curiosity of such things are important, see I have my own belief, and I want to compar notes, not to see who is better, worse, right or wrong, but to see what there is out there. No harm in learning, no need to believe in what we learn, no reason to ignore it eihter.

Peace be with you.

Religion by deffinition--spelled definition by the way: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, (esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies),...
Take note here--->( yes sir!)...usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a "moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

This is about all of your comment that I understood, as I nearly fell asleep reading it, or a part of it. Sorry, I just could not get through it all. However, you did proved my point with this statement, that I did not contradict myself. Christianity is not about rules and customs it is about a RELATIONSHIP with The One True God. I don't care what your dictionary says, and I don't want to sound mean here, but you should use it more often...or at least spell check...no that was mean. I am sorry. I do not want to be mean, but if I am, I know my relationship with God has not been disturbed. He knew all about me, past, present and future, but He loved me and He saved me anyway. Yea, I am hard to handle, but my salvation is not based on my behavior, but on the Precious Blood of Jesus, that was shed for me. I am accepted in the Beloved. Even as I am, He loves me. God is my Father, and He doesn't turn His back on me or stop loving me when I'm bad, THANK GOD!...He will correct me gently like a real father does, but He never stops loving me, and He never gets mad at me. His wrath was poured out on Jesus. Except for that which is being stored up for the unbelievers...(He said it first, I'm just quoting my Father here) He is not mad at His children/believers anymore. Religion is based on rules, relationship is based on love.

And that's the difference between religion and relationship.

As to the rest of your blog...I am sorry. I tried to read it. Really, I did.

The dictionary was made from man, not from God. Therefore, I don't believe all what's said in the dictionary. And God never considered Christianity as a religion.

Yeah Like I said
Religion is man reaching out to God; Christianity is allowing God to reach you

***Religious people go to church on Sunday and live like hell the rest of the week
Real Christians live their faith seven days a week

tsila1777[/B]] I don't care what your dictionary says, and I don't want to sound mean here, but you should use it more often...or at least spell check...no that was mean. I am sorry. I do not want to be mean, but if I am,If you really were sorry you would have edited out that bit you were sorry about - but you didn't.

Just for fun lets say some one simply wanted to learn how you think, why you behave the way you do, or why you believe what you believe, and not so they could validate nor find fault or flaw in your belief. This is not all about your religion, it's about your behavior, and not just yours but every ones!! I just want to learn why the religion you believe in makes you behave as you do??? Kind of like a case study, only by personal interaction as aposed to scientific data. Or if it has any effect upon you at all.

Surely curiosity of such things are important, see i have my own belief, and i want to compar notes, not to see who is better, worse, right or wrong, but to see what there is out there. No harm in learning, no need to believe in what we learn, no reason to ignore it eihter.

Peace be with you.

Key word here being fun. I'm having fun... if it is irritating someone, I'm sorry. Being a Christian doesn't mean I have to be super perfect all the time or even super nice... You explained yourself well, and I appreciate that. I do have a problem with sarcasm... one of my faults... I'm not perfect, just forgiven.

But since the written word is so impersonal, how then can one get to know the person behind the word? How can you judge my behavior through the written word?

None of you knows anything about me, except what you suppose you have gleaned from my comments. I’m sure I am much worse than you all think. :D

If you really were sorry you would have edited out that bit you were sorry about - but you didn't.

Actually, I left it in to demonstrate my point... I am sorry... it is not nice to make fun of people, and I would hate for someone to do that to me. Forgive me. I'm sure there will be and have been opportunities to do so.

My point was... I don't have to be perfect... I am not always a nice person... I can be mean... a lot meaner than that... but I am forgiven and my Father God loves me no matter what I do... because of what His Son Jesus did in my favor. And I don't have to kill anything or do anything to receive that forgiveness except to receive it. Jesus paid the price for my sins. That doesn't give me a right to be mean... but if I am, then I know it's under the Blood.

I hope I explained that well enough... I'm sure I'll get a chance to explain it again.

Peace and love

Religion by deffinition--spelled definition by the way: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, (esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies),...
Take note here--->( yes sir!)...usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a "moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

This is about all of your comment that I understood, as I nearly fell asleep reading it, or a part of it. Sorry, I just could not get through it all. However, you did proved my point with this statement, that I did not contradict myself. Christianity is not about rules and customs it is about a RELATIONSHIP with The One True God. I don't care what your dictionary says, and I don't want to sound mean here, but you should use it more often...or at least spell check...no that was mean. I am sorry. I do not want to be mean, but if I am, I know my relationship with God has not been disturbed. He knew all about me, past, present and future, but He loved me and He saved me anyway. Yea, I am hard to handle, but my salvation is not based on my behavior, but on the Precious Blood of Jesus, that was shed for me. I am accepted in the Beloved. Even as I am, He loves me. God is my Father, and He doesn't turn His back on me or stop loving me when I'm bad, THANK GOD!...He will correct me gently like a real father does, but He never stops loving me, and He never gets mad at me. His wrath was poured out on Jesus. Except for that which is being stored up for the unbelievers...(He said it first, I'm just quoting my Father here) He is not mad at His children/believers anymore. Religion is based on rules, relationship is based on love.

And that's the difference between religion and relationship.

As to the rest of your blog...I am sorry. I tried to read it. Really, I did.


I thank you for you correcting me, my spelling is atrosious, I"M sure i spelled that worng, lets' see if i remember to spell check eh? haha. I don't think you are mean, for suggesting i improve upon my spelling, i welcome the idea. Like I said, Im hear for the Learning.

Hey no worries, i'm a long windded person, but that is simply because i've noticed a "relationship", that i wonder if any one else notices, between who we are, what we do, how we behave, what we believe, how we affect the enviroment, how it inturne affects us, and pretty much how everything is connected at some point, in some way. See, Yes there maybe a god, Gods, energy, force, source, or other, but i have no idea. I do know that my connection with the world is a connection with that what ever it is. How so, well if our world was created by anything, then I imagine that that thing would have put a part of it's self into it as well, even if it was just a thought, or love. So, really I guess i do believe, but not the same as you. For if god loves his children, As we all do start off as, and he knows past present and future, then i can only assume he knows about how are minds/brains are affected by the world around us, with in us, and apart of us, Thus he perhaps like me knows that people do have a measure of control over thier actions, but there are so many factors and things to consider, that we as humans simply can't fathome the very idea of thier tremendous expanse, for it would take a billion life times to understand it. So, god would have to pardon every one no?? lest he be, now lets not get angree but intolerable, sounds a little you know ignorant, childish, and/or heartless. Since i don't know, maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm right, but i'm almsot sure that none of that really matters on account they are just words, and nothing is absolute.

Also, I do not think i proved your point, "However, you did proved my point with this statement, that I did not contradict myself. Christianity is not about rules and customs it is about a RELATIONSHIP with The One True God. I don't care what your dictionary says... " This relationship is in fact based upon rules, guide lines, comandments, no??? I mean if he demends, or requires, or expects us to Follow him and nothing else, i really don't see how you can call that anything but a Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. No, i'm not throwing this in your face, nor am i saying you are right or wrong, i'm simply saying these are words that describe what you believe.

One thing i've noticed about people and religion, most will claim they don't believe in it, but they believe in a relationship or worshipfull purpose with a higher power that created exsistance, but that is a religion. Religion is just a word, and it doesn't mean good or bad as some seem to believe. Religion does not start wars, nor does it influence people to. We are individuals, and as such have the ability to choose for our selves, and in some cases, more and more often every day, there are individuals who are incapable of this "ability" to choose, due to mental illness, physical illness (usually of the brain.), lack of human emotional kindness, and emotional belonging, "FEAR", and lack of safety, and or nessissary physical requirements being met: food, water.

But I've noticed that people do seem to think they need more then they do and in takeing more then we need we are depriving our fellow Humanbeings, of basic needs. We, seem to leave no where for people to simply be, so we all hudle in our so called civalized society. Brain washed I think, we have become blind to our relationship to exsistance, and traded it for a relationship with our desires, and wants. But I don't blame people, though I'd like to, it's not fair to do that. Most of us just want to be happy and some of us are, some aren't and others are not sure. Different strokes for different folks.

Any who I hope that is a little better for you.

Peace be with you.

The dictionary was made from man, not from God. Therefore, i don't believe all what's said in the dictionary. And God never considered Christianity as a religion.

Was not the bible, the ten comandments, written by men?? Passed down by god, but I mean really. We were not there, therefor we don't know, not to mention that the translations have been some what distorted. I'm not saying believe the words are what the dictionary says, in fact, I think that each person has their own different understanding of language, and that one word could mean a different thing for another person.

Peace be with you.

If you really were sorry you would have edited out that bit you were sorry about - but you didn't.

No no, I bleive she felt it could hurt my feelings, but she felt also, more strongely, that I needed to know.

Peace be with you.

Key word here being fun. I'm having fun...if it is irritating someone, I'm sorry. Being a Christian doesn't mean I have to be super perfect all the time or even super nice....You explained yourself well, and I appreciate that. I do have a problem with sarcasm...one of my faults...I'm not perfect, just forgiven.

But since the written word is so impersonal, how then can one get to know the person behind the word? How can you judge my behavior through the written word?

None of you knows anything about me, except what you suppose you have gleaned from my comments. I’m sure I am much worse than you all think. :D


Haha, now that's a question I can answer. See, I have to have faith that you are who you say you are. I have to take your word for it. I have no proof that you are who, or behave the way you are now. And considering how much you seem to know about your religion/ relationship with god, which ever you prefer, you seem like the kind of person to be up front. Then again, you won't know a book just by it's cover. So, yes, I'm going on faith in you right now. How does that make you feel.

As for the written word, and it's impersonl quality, that's the quality of the word, not the person. You keep talking to me, and replying to my comments, and by that act, and others, I can learn about you. I, should I decide to dig deeper, can also as to talk to you on the side, and continue the talks with you, till I can put toegther enough information to start understanding what you really mean when you use your words. This could take a long time. Then again you could simply ignore me.

Actually, I left it in to demonstrate my point...I am sorry...it is not nice to make fun of people, and I would hate for someone to do that to me. Forgive me. I'm sure there will be and have been opportunities to do so.

My point was...I don't have to be perfect...I am not always a nice person...I can be mean...a lot meaner than that...but I am forgiven and my Father God loves me no matter what I do...because of what His Son Jesus did in my favor. And I don't have to kill anything or do anything to receive that forgiveness except to receive it. Jesus paid the price for my sins. That doesn't give me a right to be mean...but if I am, then I know it's under the Blood.

I hope I explained that well enough....I'm sure I'll get a chance to explain it again.

peace and love

And as I read on, I learn more, through your act of admition, the words are there, yes, but they don't tell me that you are a respectable and even understanding person, but the fact that you would say them, expressing yourself does. It's hard to handle some times, but people express things in different ways, some yell to tell you they are angry, some cry, because they are frustrated, that they feel angry, some laugh and say you know what, that's fine, I mean it's a real drag, but that's how it is. Expressing ones emotions is not so much in the words as it is in our actions. Words are just words, and really can't explain who or what we are, only give us clues. Hum, that may need some clearification.

So I thank you for your honesty, and consideration for my feelings. If I seem like I am not being considerate please do express that.

P.S. Spell check isn't working for me. So it goes.

I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something... But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

You do have faith. You just haven't been able to define what your faith is in.

I believe and have faith in the Creator of all, the God of Heaven and Earth, the LORD Jesus Christ. I am able to figure out who my faith is in by reading about Him. Faith is believing in someone/ something that you can't explain or touch. Faith is about trusting what you know without tangble proof.
Hebrews 11
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Jesus said that many do not believe because they do not see, but He blesses those who believe when they cannot see.

Dear Nestorian,
May I be a bit long winded here myself…and may I ask a favor of you? I would like to address 'everyone' in this one comment. I hope that is Ok with you.

To Magog—faith is making a choice to believe. But the faith must be based on truth. I surmise that you are looking for truth. His Name is Jesus. He said, “I am the truth and the life.” There is no other way to God, but by Him.

To Needkarma---bite me, oh I'm sorry, that was mean. Please forgive me, my Father God already has.

To Nohelp4u—you are so right. God is continually reaching out to those who do not believe. It is not His will that any should perish, but that all should have everlasting life.

To Unk—I hope you don't mind my pet name for you. God bless and keep you, and cause His goodness to come upon you and overtake you. If you are going through something right now, I believe there will soon be a pleasant end. Peace and love in Him.

To Allheart--this is the perfect name for you. You have a quiet and gentle spirit, pleasing to god.

To whom it may concern— Lobrasster and Cridiculous
God has done all He is ever going to do, He gave His only begotten Son to save your sorry butts, and when Jesus said on the cross 'it is finished' He meant it, and after He has secured our righteousness, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. Jesus being the first born of many brethren…that makes Him my elder Brother, I am a joint heir with Him. He gave us power and authority to continue His work here on earth. God can do nothing except someone prays. And Jesus told us to pray, “Our Father which art in Heaven…” He also said 'in the latter days there would come scoffers... He was right.

To my dear friend Nestoriaan---How does that make me feel? It makes me feel good—all warm and fuzzy inside. :)

I perceive that you are a gentle person, with strong character, and a teachable spirit; one willing to take correction in the spirit it is intended, even when in jest, and I am pleased to have 'met' you.

Question, did you have an earthly father who loved and cared for you? A mother with gentle hands that no matter what you did, like not doing your homework,;) you knew without a doubt they still loved you. Are you in a secure relationship now? Do you have children? Do you still love them even when they break your heart? Would you ever cast one away or deny him anything he wanted if it was in your power to give it?

God is a Father; God is love. God has taken care of sin forever through His Son Jesus. 'Blessed is the man to whom God does not impute sin' I am blessed. God does not impute sin unto me anymore.

My mother, who is now with Jesus, is a gentle woman who loves her children no matter what we did. But my daddy was while on earth, a harsh, violent man spreading fear and dread wherever he went. He was driving the car when the big rig hit my mother's door. She live a month then died from her injuries. I was 23, and had only been saved a few days at this time. My daddy only received a cut on his head. He lived to be 104.

I did not mean to write all that, but I will let it stay. My point which I am getting to is a relationship, with our earthly father or mother is comparable to our relationship with God and the Holy Spirit Whom Jesus sent to be with us and live in our spirit. But God is a good Father.

God the Father gave Adam authority on earth in the garden, when Adam sinned he turned that authority over to satan. Jesus had to come in the likeness of man to redeem us from satan's authority. Jesus was victorious and made a show of him, satan, openly as was the custom of the day. Before Jesus was taken up into Heaven, He said all power and authority is Mine, now go ye in my Name. He gave us power of attorney to use His Name to continue His work on earth. To go about doing good and healing all... He said God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven... there are no missing limbs in heaven.

Jesus was God's very own Son, now are we the sons and daughters of God. We are adopted into His family and are joint heirs with Jesus. We are not stepchildren; we are children of the Most High God.

And like a good earthly father, God loves us and cares for us. His wrath was poured out on Jesus; did you see the movie the Passion of Christ? Therefore, God is not angry with us anymore. Through Jesus, we have access to the Father; we can go into the very throne room of God and talk to Him as unto an earthly father.

Relationship with God is not a set of rules, or commandments. He said 'if ye love me you will keep my commandments'. Of course, we love Him; He saved us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of His Dear Son.

It is not by obligation or dread, fear of punishment or of losing our salvation, that we obey Him and want to please Him. It is for Love's sake. As a man would want to please his wife or a parent would work two jobs and deny themselves for their children.

Religion is rules, laws, and punishment…but we have not been given a spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind.

You wrote: How so, well if our world was created by anything, then I imagine that that thing would have put a part of it's self into it as well, even if it was just a thought, or love.

Yes, when God created the world He did put a part of Himself in it. When God created man, He also put a part of Himself in us. And it was love, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit as well as the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, faith, patience, goodness, kindness, self-control, gentleness.

He also gave us the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Word of Wisdom, Word of knowledge, and the others. He gave us everything we would ever need to be conformed to the image of His Son. And He is still giving. The new Covenant is more than a divider in the Bible; it is a blood covenant between God and man. One, a spiritual person, has to read it with a clear and reasonable mind to understand all the things that belong to us and are ours to claim by faith. Things that already belong to us, like healing and prosperity, and the reasons some do not have these is because they do not have faith to believe for them or are ignorant of them.


God gave me my personality, I have always been a feisty, hot tempered, even violent person…the thing I hated most in my daddy, I inherited from him. But thank God, I do not have to yield to those things, I can make up my will not to behave unseemly. Or I can chose to be a bit feisty still.

Your wrote: I don't care what your dictionary says..." This relationship is in fact based upon rules, guide lines, comandments, no???

NO!! It is based on unconditional love from God to me, and my willingness and joy to please Him as I would my earthly father or mother or child or husband. Love is not that complicated. Love and relationship….Does your wife demand certain rules and guide lines and commandments? If you break them is your relationship over? Remember we are speaking of unconditional love here.

I have broken relationships with people who broke some major rules, like isolating and starving me, but when the love is true, the relationship is true and stable.

God knew me, and He still loved me, but it took me a long time to get the impression that God my Father was not like my earthly father. But I finally, through spending time with Him, came to realize God my Father is gentle and kind, long-suffering and good to all who upon His Name in truth.

I know this is incredibly long, but now I have said all I care to say on the subject of religion and relationship. I pray that Magog reads this and understands the love God has for him and why one can believe without seeing, without 'proof' and have strong convictions.

Never mind the spelling thing, which was just a peek into my spunky personality, and only to make a point. By the way, commandment is spelled with two ms.:)

wado unli

Very well put TSILA, may love and kindness continue to guid you.

"Question, did you have an earthly father who loved and cared for you?" In a way yes, he is an alcoholic, but never really hurt me, just never saw him much either.

"A mother with gentle hands that no matter what you did, like not doing your homework, you knew without a doubt they still loved you. ?" Yes and no, my mother loves her children but she is rather angry, sad, and lonely. I can not help her, for she must choose to help herself. Depression runs in the family. But she does love us no matter what, though she does say she'd rather not know me if I ever decided to forsake the idea that we all have to have a "house" in order to be happy. I disagree with her on that, I think we could have a little less, and share our homes a lot more with others, See I don't believe any one truly owns anything. One day sooner or later, we all die, and then it's as if we never had anything, no matter what some one says, or what is written on a piece of paper, because in the end it's not important what you have, only that you've lived.

"Are you in a secure relationship now?" Secure, um, not really. no. It seems that my whole family is divided, and it's very hard to be with one member one holiday and not the other. So easily hurt they are. I hardly see them any more, my family. And the last girl I was romantically involved with well, I'll explain that a little latter in this. Though, I do know I have a relationship with them all still, it's never really that solid.

"Do you have children?" That is a good question, I honestly can't answer that. At the moment, no I don't. But if the child in my friends belly is mine then yes I do. If it's her boyfriends, then nope I don't. (yet if he abandoned them, I'd not leave them to the cold of the streets. NO MATTER WHO'S CHILD. A child is a child, and can not be to blam.) Yes, I'd say I was not very careful in the last year and done paper that may change my life drastically, mind you I'm not afraid of it. I don't feel ashamed, though I feel bad for the other guy, but I also believe he had his hand in the matter just as much as I. So not too bad.

"Do you still love them even when they break your heart?" I love everything, even if I'm mad, I don't really get angry and yell or vent, but I feel it just the same as anyone. I just learned that feelings can be controlled, very hard to do, but nonetheless it is possible to control your actions, no matter how you feel. Though, I can't say any one could ever stop them, or fully stop their feelings influence upon them. Mind you, I believe every one is a child, no matter what you do, no matter what you know, how wise you are, I still believe you are a child. Adult, is something that I can't say I've ever truly honestly met. Why? Mostly because we can never learn enough, and we are always growing, always.

"Would you ever cast one away or deny him anything he wanted if it was in your power to give it?" I try not to turn any one away, but there are times when I feel I am not capable of helping, even with self control, I still get lost too.

I also believe, that despite the fact that we are all individual beings, we are all one of the same. It's complicated.

Any way, I'm very pleased to have met you as well my friend. Once a gain, I thank you for your spelling check for me. Commandments, right?

Peace be with you.

Osiyo Nesterion,

You are welcome for the spell check, but I see yours is now
Working or else your spelling has improved greatly.

Did you understand my distinction between religion and relationship as it relates to Chritian faith and beliefs?

Peace and love to you also,
May you have a good and peaceful conclusion to the situation you are facing. God is a God of reconciliation as well... as I say all things you need.. I pray your family to be reconciled and there be no devision among you. I pray only the best God has for you, and thank Him now that He is watching over you.

Wado

To Unk—I hope you don't mind my pet name for you. God bless and keep you, and cause His goodness to come upon you and overtake you. If you are going through something right now, I believe there will soon be a pleasant end. Peace and love in Him.

Thanks. GBU loads too! And I don't mind really. Some are trying to find a nickname for me right now... :D. Peace & love to you also. May you your work as a Christian continue and fructify!

Oh man. See, this is why I often give up on understanding this stuff. It just seems like all that ever happens is that questions lead to more questions and the 'answers' lead to more questions- and sometimes I get tired of running around in circles.

I do have a few things to say that I was able to pull from that... but man, I just feel like if something were really TRUE it wouldn't be so darn confusing. If there was this personal type of god who wanted us to know him/her, then wouldn't he/she make himself/herself more accessible?

Tsila1777- I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post- however, I can't just take your word for it that Jesus is it and that I need to read the Bible- because your BELIEF is that the Bible is from god. Me... I don't know that to be true. I don't know it to be false, but I have an issue with treating a presumption as a fact and then 'learning' from it... do you see what I mean? There are so many religions in the world, so many religious texts for different religions, and everyone believes that their religious text is the REAL one from the REAL god... well, they can't all be right when their texts say different things, can they? So who's to say who I'm to believe and who I'm not to believe? If what you say is true, that I will never find proof and it's just about faith in what I can't see, then I guess I'll never believe.
Also, if that's how it works, what do you think your god thinks of people who are of other religions that believe without doubting or questioning, or wanting proof like Thomas did? Is it their fault that the religion they were most familiar with or brought up in is the one that they had such faith in? If Jesus is the only way to god, and we should believe w/o proof and that faith we have should not require evidence... then isn't it easy to be mistaken? If someone has unquestioning faith in their beliefs, but they are not Christian, are they blessed for their strong faith or damned for their failure to accept Jesus as god?
Do you see how confusing this is? I just don't understand it- it doesn't logically make sense to me.

Nestorian- I appreciate your posts and your answer... I do have to admit that I struggled to make it through a lot of your posts because they seemed to circle a lot. But I think that's just the nature of the question I asked... it leads to more and more questions. So please don't take it personally that I say that- part of what drives me crazy about religion is how cyclical the question/answer process becomes... and it's funny, because the people who tell me 'just believe in xyz religion and you'll be fine' are direct and clear, but I can't agree with them because it's just too cut and dry (and for the reasons I mentioned above and in other posts)- and then answers like yours which break things down and attempt to clarify things make my head hurt, even though that's probably the direction my thoughts should be going in at this point. Lol.
But one thing that stood out in your posts that I do think I agree with is that if there is some sort of god or power behind all of this which created all of what we see (through thousands of years of evolution, but created it none the less) then I do think that part of that god or power or spirit or whatever is in it's creation- because I don't think it's possible for something to be created without reflecting something about or some part of it's creator.
So for god to create people, then maybe that indicates that there's a personal side to god. And if god created animals and nature, then there's a natural and animalistic side to god as well. I'm still working on this thought, not sure if I totally agree with it or not... but your post made me return to this thought that I had a while back, and I appreciate that.

One last thing- please, no fighting or bickering or bitterness or attacking of one another. I want to have an open and honest discussion, and it's really impossible to do so when all of that is going on-

Thanks for all of your responses- even though I'm still not much more clear on all of this yet, the discussion is helpful in at least keeping me thinking about it all and opening up to new ideas and possibilities.

margog85 : you asked "What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?".

Of course such a question receives replies from wide differing world views.
Some people just need a "father" figure to keep them going - an imitation memory from early life, where father was the one who saved you, who took care of you, who was there for you - so they accept an imaginary deity that performs that function (a "god").

Other people at some time in their life start understanding that deities are like tooth fairies and gnomes : they simply do not exist. So they re-arrange their life to continue without the "alternative" father figure, i.e. the "god" figure.

And there are people who are at some in-between position : they realize that the Christian (or other religious) story can't be correct, but they hold back in implementing the logical conclusion that you have to go - and can go - on without deities.

Faith in a deity or deities is about fear : fear for the unknown, fear for death, fear to be alone, fear for death, etc. Faith is about the need to "lean" on something to silence these fears.

People believe, because during their childhood they were brainwashed in the most friendly way possible - but never-the-less brainwashed - into believing into the existence of an almighty father figure who would take care of you.

If that suits people : fine with me! I have no problem with that.
Where I do have a problem with is that some of them insist that what they believe should also be believed by the rest of humanity, and they refuse to accept a no answer. I have a problem with such people, because of their intolerance for the freedom of choice by others (while they themselves always insist on that same freedom of choice for themselves).

:rolleyes:

·

Ah, margog85, I have a verse for you. It's from a song: "We live by faith and not by sight". The fact that we believe in Him without being able to give proof of His existence to the world makes us apart from the world and be saved by Him. No matter what the others tell you, if you listen to Him, he will save you. We can be in the world, but we're not from it. They perhaps need proof, but you shouldn't. I know its difficult, because the world influences you everyday. But if you can see people who are suffering... They are desperate and the only thing they can do is to believe in something. Some choose the right path, that of God, but some choose the wrong path. Such a case occurs in Burma. If you could see those people. Their government is ruled by dictatorship and recently, they had a terrible cyclone... Some tried to make their situation better but the government killed them.

You have the chance of being in a more comfortable country, take that chance and do the right choice, choose life!

Ok, I get that, that people have faith in what they cannot see... but if you can't see it, prove it, or support it with anything other than texts from within the religion or testimonies from those who are part of that religious movement... then how sure can you be that YOUR religion is CORRECT? Because other religions go off the same basis-
That you can't have proof, you have to have faith, and they have the support of THEIR texts and THEIR believers.
Do you see what I mean?
Each religion can have the same TYPES of 'proof' and ideas about faith and believing what you cannot see... but if no one can see anything they believe in, and it's just blind trust or faith or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it, how can you be so CONFIDENT that what you believe is right?
Or do religious people just believe that what they believe is right FOR THEM because it works FOR THEM and that others don't necessarily have to believe in the same way as they do as long as what they are doing WORKS.
That kind of view I'd have a much easier time understanding.
But how can those who believe in something they cannot see or provide evidence for be so sure that their beliefs are so true and set in stone and definite that they then go on to try to convince others that their way is the only way, or the best way, or the 'truth'?
That's what I'm trying to understand, partially.
If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

Hi beautiful Margog :)

I was born Catholic from the time the doctor's smacked my butt ( hey, isn't that a sin? :)
From the time I could hear, see and breath, I knew Catholisism. I had cousins who were priest and nuns and Aunts who were nuns, and a sister who wanted to be a nun, but it never did happen.

It is who I am and what I believe. I love the teachings, as far as love one another, turn the other cheek and do good unto others. I love the soft music and peaceful readings and the homilys to follow.

Now, if I were raised Jewish or Baptist, I bet I would hold true to that faith. I don't ever discount any faith were there is a love of God.

I don't think by faith... is the faith... the perfect faith... but it is for me. But I have a love in my heart for all faiths.

Bless you and here's an Allheart hug for you :)

Magog,

You're welcome.

but I have an issue with treating a presumption as a fact and then 'learning' from it... do you see what I mean?

No, I don't. I was talking about a relationship with God. I have a relationship with God, I feel His Presence, I hear His voice, I know Him. I know about Him, but I also know Him... I can't prove that to you, I would that I could. But it's by faith, grace, and trust. I know that I know that I know that God is real and He is my Father and loves me and cares for me. Someday He will send for me and I will be in His Presence always and forever.

What I was trying to say is if you get to know this God of mine, through reading His Word, then He would give you proof. He would make Himself known to you. That would be your proof.

It's not just reading the Bible. You asked about faith. You said what is faith? I told you. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Faith in something you can prove, is NOT faith. Do you really want to understand faith? Is that your real question? Is that what you are really looking for here? Or are you asking which religion is the right one? Everyone thinks theirs is right... or else they wouldn't believe in it. Right? So, there is no way to get an anwer to that question on here.

You said "and that faith we have should not require evidence."

Faith and evidence are opposites. You can't have faith in something you can see, you know for sure. Oh, you can have faith in your lover, but you still have to trust that lover, and then that lover may still betray you.

Faith is trusting that what you believe in is real. OK? Spirirtual faith in a higher Being, is trusting that what you believe is real. If it be Christian, or any other 'religion', that's what faith is.

As for other 'religions' it is not God's will that any should perish. I am not here to judge other religions... if they have a real faith in God and believe with all their hearts, I'm sure God will honor them.

But if you refuse to accept that faith is believing without seeing, faith is trusting in 'a higher Being' without 'making sense' then there is no answer for your question.

And I guess that is the answer... there is no answer.

Sorry, I wish I could have helped you. I pray you do find some answer.

Try looking inside yourself, sometimes we already know the answer, it's just not the one we wanted.

Peace and hope to you. I pray God will reveal Himself to you, and show you the truth and teach you the path you should walk. Blessing and peace from God.

Tsila

margog85 : you asked "What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?".

Of course such a question receives replies from wide differing world views.
Some people just need a "father" figure to keep them going - an imitation memory from early life, where father was the one who saved you, who took care of you, who was there for you - so they accept an imaginary deity that performs that function (a "god").

Other people at some time in their life start understanding that deities are like tooth fairies and gnomes : they simply do not exist. So they re-arrange their life to continue without the "alternative" father figure, i.e. the "god" figure.

And there are people who are at some in-between position : they realize that the Christian (or other religious) story can't be correct, but they hold back in implementing the logical conclusion that you have to go - and can go - on without deities.

Faith in a deity or deities is about fear : fear for the unknown, fear for death, fear to be alone, fear for death, etc. Faith is about the need to "lean" on something to silence these fears.

People believe, because during their childhood they were brainwashed in the most friendly way possible - but never-the-less brainwashed - into believing into the existence of an almighty father figure who would take care of you.

If that suits people : fine with me! I have no problem with that.
Where I do have a problem with is that some of them insist that what they believe should also be believed by the rest of humanity, and they refuse to accept a no answer. I have a problem with such people, because of their intolerance for the freedom of choice by others (while they themselves always insist on that same freedom of choice for themselves).

:rolleyes:

·

Now Credendovidis, relax, take this in the best way possible, I'm not saying you are wrong o right or other wise, I'm just asking you to "CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING." (you know like Bill Nye the science guy!! Haha, I used to love that show.

And moving on, So you say people have "faith" in things simply because of fear? (mindyou there are those who do, indeed do this.) No other reason? Surely you believe in a human soul, or spitit, on account you believe in free will, and the ability to freedom of choice, NO? We have no real "objective" (was it you who told me about this?? ) evidence, only "subjective" evidence of the spirit. Yes, it would apear that our mind and our brain are two seperat things, yet both tend to interact so closely that it's next to impossible to distinguish between the two. Other than one is Physical (the brain.) the other is abstract (the mind). Both, as you have pointed out, have influence on our behaviors. See, "conditioning" or "brain washing", is one way our brain influences the mind, by distiorting our perceptions and the information that is taken in. But not only as children are we brain washed, but even as adults, though we "seem" more aware of things as adults, we are still pulled into what we see others doing, or how something's make us "feel", and many other things. Do you think a specific type of women is attractive? Well, that is not just because of a childhood experience, though it seems to be the biger part, there is still what we experience as adults that can change our perceptions. See the brain is Plastic, and has the ability to change, adapt.

If you disagree, feel "free" to comment further, or ask questions. Just remember I'm not saying you are wrong, just that there may be more to what you say. As the original Poster said, there is question and answer then question again, running in circles, and what not. It seems never ending, and may very well be. Who knows! I'd enjoy hearing form you, as I always do, my passionate friend.

Now on to the idea that you dislike other people insisting upon your freedom to choose, I'd simply like to ask, "are you not doing the same thing by telling them they should not exercis the "Freedom to choose" weather or not they should tell people about their beief and that they feel they are right, and that you or others should follow? I don't know but that seems like a bit of a confusing statement. NO?? Implying others should not use their freedom, because it imposses upon your freedom?? Why not just let tehm say or imply as they will and leave it at that. Personally, I don't think it really matters what you choose to do, only what I choose to do. (on account that I'm the only one who controls my behavior, and that is quit hard enough with out worrying about others behavior.) So unless some one intends on harming me or such, really what's the harm. So you don't agree with me, or even choose to recognise my belief, it's not yours it's mine. No?

Faith in things because of fear that is Cred0's opinion due to his limited comprehension of the faith concept.

He says you are free to say whatever you believe as long as you FIRST state
I BELIEVE...

Does that clear any of your confusion?

Ok, I get that, that people have faith in what they cannot see... but if you can't see it, prove it, or support it with anything other than texts from within the religion or testimonies from those who are part of that religious movement... then how sure can you be that YOUR religion is CORRECT? Because other religions go off of the same basis-
that you can't have proof, you have to have faith, and they have the support of THEIR texts and THEIR believers.
Do you see what I mean?
Each religion can have the same TYPES of 'proof' and ideas about faith and believing what you cannot see... but if no one can see anything they believe in, and it's just blind trust or faith or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it, how can you be so CONFIDENT that what you believe is right?
Or do religious people just believe that what they believe is right FOR THEM because it works FOR THEM and that others don't necessarily have to believe in the same way as they do as long as what they are doing WORKS.
That kind of view I'd have a much easier time understanding.
But how can those who believe in something they cannot see or provide evidence for be so sure that their beliefs are so true and set in stone and definite that they then go on to try to convince others that their way is the only way, or the best way, or the 'truth'?
That's what I'm trying to understand, partially.
If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

My brother, Faith belongs to those who keep it. YOu can't understand something that is not in you, but is in aonther person. That is theirs to hold true, you have to find your own truth/path/understanding/way/belief/faith so on and so on. "to each it's own." Some believe God is a Being, some believe God is many beings, some believe God is all around us, some believe God is in us, some Believe they are Gods, some believe We are all God, or Gods, some believe tha God is that part of you that you can't see or touch (you just know its' there.) Personally, I believe that None and all are true.

You want to know what faith is? First why not try to define faith. Sure the dictionary says it's a belief with out proof. But a belief is described as an opinion, and an opinion is baised on one's personal perspective. You may try to decide what Faith is to you. All we can try to do is tell you what faith is too us, and you, you can agree, and disagree with what ever you want, (or ignore us) but what may matter is not that you choose one to agree with one of us, but that you have the ability to choose one, what ever the choice is, it is yours to make.
If some one believes that you will not make it into heaven because you don't choose their faith, that is their own belief (thier choice), what is yours? And don't feel bad if you can't decide or be afraid that you will be punished for not making a choice, because as I've said before, If what ever made us is indeed all knowing, it will know that we are creatures that have doubts, and fears, and don't know what is right or wrong. (in all truth, we can only choose what is right for our self. Even then life can show us other wise, that it is wrong.) We don't really know what is meant to happen or if its spose to happen only that it is happeing or has happened. It seems likely that it put it's self into this existence, and therefor probably understands our human conditions and has forgiven us.

Do as you feel you must, but try not to depend on others to give you the answer, find it with in yourself. As yoda tells Luke (on dagoba) when Luke askes, "what's in there?" Yoda, "only what you take with you." Or as the saying goes, "the only wisedom a man finds at the top of a mountain is the wisdom he takes with him." Or something like that, I'm tired, and if you need any more clearity, may I suggest opening a book on religion, read as many as you feel is nessissary, heck why not read about philosophy too.

"Yesturday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. That is why it is called the present." - Kung Fu panda, the turtle master guy.

If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

What seems impossible to me is that you have gotten so many answers already and still do not understand what faith is.

Do you really want an answer?

Faith is like the air you breath…you cannot see it, but you trust that it will sustain you if you continue to exercise your lungs, and take in the oxygen that enters into your blood stream and is carried to every cell of your body…

Do you believe in gravity? You cannot see it. Someone said gravity holds us on this spinning planet. But you don't even know for sure the earth is spinning. Do You? They say the earth is moving at a certain speed, have you gauged that for yourself or do you believe it is just standing still? Or do you just take their word for it, by faith.

They can explain it and you can chose to believe it or not. I think you are choosing not to believe in faith.

Please reread my long comment again, if you even read it the first time. Read it slowly and carefully….. I already told you exactly what you are still asking for now. I told you what I believe and why I believe it, and the reason I can be so confident is that God has revealed Himself to me in many ways.

I do not believe this way because my parents did, because my parents did not believe exactly the way I do. I believe because I have put God to the test and He did as He said He would. He is true and faithful to His Word.

I believe in the Blood of Jesus that washed away all my sin even before I was born and now I am free from sin because I believed in my heart and confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord. I have peace and strong confidence. Something I can tell you, but there is no way to show you. That's impossible.

To ask for proof of faith is like asking for proof ofunbelief.

Can you prove to me that you still do not understand? I do find it so hard to believe, so go ahead prove it. Prove your unbelief!!

Well, Tsila, I did read your answers. You seem somewhat aggravated with me for not 'getting it', which I don't really understand. Maybe all of this is clear as day to you, but it's not to me.
I understand that YOU have faith, and that OTHERS have faith, and I know what faith IS, but I still can't grasp it myself and really get a good grip on HOW that kind of faith is possible.

If I didn't really want an answer, I wouldn't have asked the question, read the responses, and responded to them. So don't ask silly questions like that, obviously I'm trying to figure it out. When you ask a question like that, it comes off as condescending. Not trying to argue, just pointing it out in case you didn't realize or intend it to sound that way.

And I'm not asking for 'proof' of faith, whatever that means- What I'm interested in the thought process behind coming to faith in something- how to narrow it all down from the vague idea that there's something out there beyond yourself to the specific religious 'truths' that people have. And just saying that 'reading the bible' or 'just trusting' doesn't cut it for me. If that's how it worked for you or for others, that's fine and great for you- but I'm looking for a different kind of answer- something a little more specific.

If you can say that that's a simple process, something that I should have come to a full understanding of within the past week or two since I posted this question, then I have to disagree. People spend their entire lives searching and trying to figure this out- so please don't be hard on me because it's taking me a while to understand.

I'm not asking what faith IS- I know that it's belief in something you can't see but still believe to be true and real- but I don't understand what's behind that faith, how to get to a place where you really can understand what you have faith in, out of all the different options out there, and be confident in it as being 'right'.

If you re-read my question, or maybe read it fully, not just the title, maybe you'd understand better exactly what I'm looking for. I know it's long- but maybe it'd clarify a bit what I was asking for here.

I really don't want to argue, but you're coming off sort of confrontational- and this is not what I was looking for. It wasn't meant to be a cut and dry question, I wasn't just looking for a definition of faith or of what other people believe- I wanted a discussion of how people came to believe what they do... why they do... how they sorted out all the confusion in their heads and came to some sort of peace with whatever beliefs they finally decided were 'right' or 'right' for them...

So forgive me if I'm still discussing it and asking more questions that come to mind- but there's no need to get frustrated with me, though. I'm trying to understand something that is (possibly) much bigger than myself. I think it's normal that it takes some time.

=)

Faith in God is only possible by the Holy Spirit.

Well Margog,

I reread my answer and it did come off much more harsh than I had intended. But you asked for people to give you examples, to tell how they came to their faith and several people have done that. Have you ever heard of a leap of faith?

I guess it is like jumping off a cliff, you just have to decide to believe in something... is there a drawing toward anything in you? Something you feel on the inside, a longing. A gut feeling?

When I tell you about my God, you say 'that's your belief', well that is all I know about. That is all I know to tell you. I could tell you about other religions, but I don't believe that way... why would I tell you about something I do not believe in? So when you say things like 'that's your belief... it's like you are rejecting all I have to say because I am telling you about how I found faith and peace and joy.

I believe there in only one God, that is my belief, because I believe there is only one God. 'round and round, I believe because that's my belief, I believe there is only one God. And that's why I believe it. OK?

Dear one, I am sorry I came off so harsh. But I feel like you want someone to convince you of a particular religion or belief. That is something you will have to look inside yourself and come to on your own decision. No one can tell you what to believe. Or how to find your path.

I would suggest you try praying, but you would dismiss that too as MY belief so if you won't take advise or try something that someone else is so convinced is real and true and right. Then I really don't know what to tell you.

I came to my belief when I saw the joy and peace my sisters, and their husbands had in their faith in God and I wanted what they had. I was unhappy, I had problems, I felt alone in the world. I watched them and how they were so happy and when they had a problem they prayed and the problems seems to work themselves out to their favor quickly and easily. I watched Christians and I listened to them talk and I saw how they conducted themselves and how they lived. I wanted what they had because it was so much better than what I had.

So I decided I was going to believe in God. I made a decision to believe. We have the power to decide, to make up our will that we are going to believe something. Then we can do it.


Then I began to study for myself the Word of God, other books by people like Kenneth Copeland and others. I read a lot, I prayed a lot and I finally met this God they believed in, He reached out to me and at a time when I needed him most, my mother's death. If it had not been for my faith in God at that time, I could not have endured it.

I decided to believe in Christianity because I had seen it work for others and I wanted to be like them. Of course we all have our own personalities, even family... one sister is very strict, the other is more relaxed and I am even more relaxed. But God accepts our differences because that's how he made us. He does not want carbon copies, He just wants our devotion and love and for us to spend time with Him. There are not a lot of rules and commandments. Simply, love God and love others. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Do what is right even when no one is watching.

That is why I believe in My God and Father, because I do have a personal relationship with Him.

That was some 30 years ago and I have not regretted it, or changed my belief. I have grown and matured, though I still like to have fun and be mischievous sometimes. I never stop learning, and growing. There is still so much more to learn and no one will ever learn it all. Every time I read the Word, I learn something new, even if I have read it many times before. It is new every time I read it because the Holy Spirit that abides in me, the One Who wrote the book, knows how to teach it to us as we submit to HIM.

I personally believe that Jesus is the only way to God. It is my job as a Christian to tell others about Him and what He has done; not to cram it down their throats. You can chose to believe in Him or you can reject Him. That is up to you. You have a free will to choose to believe or not.

How do I know this is the right one; because for 30 years, God has never let me down. I have had 30 years of experience, if I was a lawyer, or an electrician that would impress you and cause you to trust me.

I hope you make the right decision. It is yours to make. I have done my job and the rest is up to you.

wado

Well, Tsila, I did read your answers. You seem somewhat aggravated with me for not 'getting it', which I don't really understand. Maybe all of this is clear as day to you, but it's not to me.
I understand that YOU have faith, and that OTHERS have faith, and I know what faith IS, but I still can't grasp it myself and really get a good grip on HOW that kind of faith is possible.

If I didn't really want an answer, I wouldn't have asked the question, read the responses, and responded to them. So don't ask silly questions like that, obviously I'm trying to figure it out. When you ask a question like that, it comes off as condescending. Not trying to argue, just pointing it out in case you didn't realize or intend it to sound that way.

And I'm not asking for 'proof' of faith, whatever that means- What I'm interested in the thought process behind coming to faith in something- how to narrow it all down from the vague idea that there's something out there beyond yourself to the specific religious 'truths' that people have. And just saying that 'reading the bible' or 'just trusting' doesn't cut it for me. If that's how it worked for you or for others, that's fine and great for you- but I'm looking for a different kind of answer- something a little more specific.

If you can say that that's a simple process, something that I should have come to a full understanding of within the past week or two since I posted this question, then I have to disagree. People spend their entire lives searching and trying to figure this out- so please don't be hard on me because it's taking me a while to understand.

I'm not asking what faith IS- I know that it's belief in something you can't see but still believe to be true and real- but I don't understand what's behind that faith, how to get to a place where you really can understand what you have faith in, out of all the different options out there, and be confident in it as being 'right'.

If you re-read my question, or maybe read it fully, not just the title, maybe you'd understand better exactly what I'm looking for. I know it's long- but maybe it'd clarify a bit what I was asking for here.

I really don't want to argue, but you're coming off sort of confrontational- and this is not what I was looking for. It wasn't meant to be a cut and dry question, I wasn't just looking for a definition of faith or of what other people believe- I wanted a discussion of how people came to believe what they do... why they do... how they sorted out all the confusion in their heads and came to some sort of peace with whatever beliefs they finally decided were 'right' or 'right' for them...

So forgive me if I'm still discussing it and asking more questions that come to mind- but there's no need to get frustrated with me, though. I'm trying to understand something that is (possibly) much bigger than myself. I think it's normal that it takes some time.

=)

So, now that Tsila has answered your question/s I believe you have two/ three people who've told you what you wanted to know, what I want to know is have you bin paying attention to them???

... faith in things because of fear that is Cred0's opinion due to his limited comprehension of the faith concept.
If there is anyone of us two with limited comprehension of faith, it is not I...

===


... you say people have "faith" in things simply because of fear?
No, not only fear. But fear plays a major factor in religious faith and belief.

===

·

:rolleyes:

·

Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.
Just as you seem to be strictly convinced of your (religious) views, I am strictly convinced of my Secular Humanistic views.
I guess the chance that you ever become an Atheist is higher than the one of I ever becoming a theist.

Unlike you I do not suggest any time line for you. I respect your views. From me you are allowed to believe in mythical based subjective supported wild claims. No problem at all.
Don't forget that Pascal's wager has been found invalid a long time ago...

:rolleyes:

·

Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

I agree and I hope so too for poor Cred...

I agree and i hope so too for poor Cred...
Only I am not "poor" Cred. Neither in financial nor in philosophical terms !
I'm a skeptic Secular Humanist who does not require mythical wild claims to guide his life !

:D

·

Only I am not "poor" Cred. Neither in financial nor in philosophical terms !
I'm a skeptic Secular Humanist who does not require mythical wild claims to guide his life !


Isn't too bad that some folks are so in need of the supernatural to hve meaning in their lives?



-

WVHiflyer : indeed : people are - as far as I am concerned - allowed to believe whatever they prefer !

:rolleyes:

·

Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

Matthew 13:15
For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes—so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.’

2 Corinthians 3:14
But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.

Ephesians 1:18
I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.



LORD, if you are willing...

Good ol' savesinner, always got the good verses! :) I'm sure that God is trying. But all depends on the one concerned...

Then I pray that the LORD will bind the strategy of the enemy and allow this person to see!

Then I pray that the LORD will bind the strategy of the enemy and allow this person to see!
But I see perfectly. And I see religious wild claims without any objective supporting evidence !

Never-the-less there are still many here who refuse to accept that all their religious views are based on what they BELIEVE and nothing else...

:rolleyes:

·

That's true, and according to our belief, you're not seeing perfectly as you claim.

OH GEESH! Quit it, already. I don't want people insulting, trying to persuade or convert, telling other people that they're wrong, all of this nonsense... this really is not the place.

If you're not responding to my question, or to a post someone else wrote regarding my question, then please do not post here. Start your own thread.

I'm getting really sick of all the bickering and ego-trips and this was not my intent in posting this. I was looking for advice and information-

Anyone who has the authority to close this thread, please do so.. I think it has run it's course and has now come down to the usual crap that always goes on on these boards.

How can you look around at everything in this world and not know that there is a God? The birds, the trees, the ocean, the sunshine, the flowers, the sunsets... the mountains, volcanoes. How can these things not have God written all over them? Man made computers. Man did not make trees, name animals, fill the oceans... My mother was told that she had lung cancer. She was going into the hospital for some type of surgery. She walked around telling everyone that God was going to heal her. As it turns out she caught a cold from my boyfriend and the day she went in to the hospital for her surgery they told her they couldn't do it because she had this cold. A week later they did another scan on her and sure enough the cancer was gone. X-rays were totally clear. Even to me it was a little shocking. But to her it was expected. Because God said "ask and you will recieve". She prayed for healing and he gave it to her not once but twice. A yr prior to the lung cancer thing she was in the hospital dying and my dad prayed her back. It's a difficult subject to talk about with people. But I guess when you've experienced the power of God first hand and you've felt his presence you can't deny him. You may not see a body. But you feel him everywhere.

Ah, hi margog! Hope that you're doing fine with your research and that you'll find your answers soon, though I know that questions concerning your research brings up other questions! Bon Courage!

margog,

One last thing, study religions, look at the different ones, consider reading the Bible... you take time to read these posts... just for further research... read the gospel of John... or Mathew then read Eph. Or Revelations...

Look around at different beliefs that has been explained here, look at the one who doesn't believe in anything and only is here to cause trouble and show off and in your words "telling other people that they're wrong, all of this nonsense... this really is not the place." It seems the people who do believe in something are actually trying to help you to understand what and why they believe.

But you have to make a decision to believe in God or whatever you chose. I do hope you chose God, but if you don't, at least give Him a try and don't judge God by people... there are many who call themselves Christians who know nothing of the relationship it entails.

They are like babies who never grew up and that's how they act that way and they hinder other people who are sincere, like you, and want to know the truth.

You can't judge God by them...

Don't give up... maybe give up on this post... as it seems to have turned into a credendovidis hindrance. Which is his mission. The devil comes to steal, kill and destroy... cred wants to be combative to distract from the topic and hinder you from getting the answers you seek.

Don't let him win.

Reread the good answers you've gotten here the ones that tell of their beliefs and how they came to believe and why they continue to believe. Scroll passed the bickering and then armed with this information, look to other sources.

I hope you find the right answer.

Love and prayers go out to you.

Tsila

WVHiflyer : indeed : people are - as far as I am concerned - allowed to believe whatever they prefer !

:rolleyes:

·

Sorry Mag... but I got to respond to this...

Cred, you say people are allowed to believe whatever they prefer... then I believe you to be an a**. In nine, ignorant, confused, unprofitable, uninteresting, childish bore. That's what I believe.

I'm starting a new thread, it's called Why do clueless people make comments about things they know nothing about, is it because they have no life or because their lives are so miserable they just need the attention. It's a fact that hurting people hurt people. If you have a 'comment' please post it there. I may read it, I probably won't. I do pray you find some contentment in your life and some peace and happiness.

Cred, you say people are allowed to believe whatever they prefer....
Correct. That is my view.


then I believe you to be an a**. in nine, ignorant, confused, unprofitable, uninteresting, childish bore. that's what I believe.
Nine? Nine WHAT ? ; unprofitable? Did I ever try to sell my ideas ?


I'm starting a new thread, it's called Why do clueless people make comments about things they know nothing about
Do so! Better expect a lot of replies. By those who also post from a religious point of view on evolution and on the origin of the universe!


I do pray you find some contentment in your life and some peace and happiness.
Besides that I do not see any use for praying, please feel free to do anything that suits you. In the mean time I keep reacting to topics I feel worth a reaction. Note that I am already surrounded by peace , love , and happiness in my life. But feel free to do whatever you want! You are free to BELIEVE whatever you prefer !

Now I have a question for you : what drives you to post such negative, almost hateful reactions ? Your Christian world view of love and forgiveness ? Or is it your personal level of tolerance ?

Those who play at bowls must look out for rubs...

:D ;) :p :rolleyes: :D

·

Wow, sounds like every ones gone off to la-la land with out me, and took the white rabit too! Hahha. Oh well... (sigh) Guess I'll just have to follow an imaginary white rabbit, can't hurt can it?

Funny thing about imagination, I've read that if you imagine yourself exercising, you will actually increase in strength by about 22%, provided my scientific souce isn't a load, which I've yet to find out... Now, does any one "believe" that?? So if you do, and you haven't tested it yourself, does that not mean you have to have faith in something, on account you have not proven it yourself?? Hum?? Very interesting this idea of faith, not only does it apply to religion, but also to every day life. A wise man once said, "I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing." - Socrates. Indeed, we are all here, saying this and that, when in the end words are just words, meaningless and empty. How is it, so, well I imagine in the end, nothing that happened will matter, only the fact that it is the end will matter, so fair thee be warned, enjoy what is now, and pay no fear the history, before the mistory, and simply live the now, and recognise the life you are. Now, if you learn to do this, please tell me how.

Also, "...that which we call a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet..." Now think how that may indeed tie into your question of faith, for the only way to answer a question is to ask a question.

Once again good luck Margog85, and keep on him tsila1777, you'll gett 'im sooner or later. ;) peace my brothers and sisters.

Cred, you say people are allowed to believe whatever they prefer....then I believe you to be an a**. in nine, ignorant, confused, unprofitable, uninteresting, childish bore. that's what I believe.

I'm starting a new thread, it's called Why do clueless people make comments about things they know nothing about, is it because they have no life or because their lives are so miserable they just need the attention.And this is how a good christian treats others. So much for following the 'good book'.

Cred said "Never-the-less there are still many here who refuse to accept that all their religious views are based on what they BELIEVE and nothing else... : Well duh! What else do we need? Is this not trying to 'sell' your BELIEF?

Cred said: Now I have a question for you: what drives you to post such negative, almost hateful reactions? Your Christian world view of love and forgiveness? Or is it your personal level of tolerance?

What was hateful or negative about what I posted? I simply stated my belief that you said I was entitled to have. And who said I had a 'Christian world view of love and forgiveness'? It's God who forgives, and why do you think you need my forgiveness? What have you said or done that you need me to forgive you? Are you asking for my forgiveness, if so, then I do forgive you.


You said people are allowed to believe what they want to believe<--Doesn't that to some point contradict what you just said above: many here who refuse to accept that all their religious views are based on what they BELIEVE and nothing else “? Are you not by that statement trying to change the way people believe?

Even Christians have a right to believe what they want, and telling the truth is not a sin. Nowhere have either of you, Cred and Needy, tried to give an honest helpful answer to Margog, all you've done is made hateful comments to and about the ones who were trying to help. Needy, your comment was more hateful than mine.

My 'good book', does say to love others, it does not say I have to stand back like a meek mouse and take anything they dish out and keep my mouth shut. And by the way Needy, I wasn't talking to you anyway, why are you always trying to defend other people against me?

I admit Cred does need some help, in understanding... I thought he would be smart enough to understand "A** in nine", It was a bit of humor, but apparently it went right over his head. Unprofitable... look it up in the dictionary, cred, that also went over your head. Ignorant has already been defined on here.

I guess people are allowed to believe what they want as long as it doesn't get to close to the truth about you.

You can say whatever you want on here, Cred, but I do not believe you, and you cannot prove it. I actually feel sorry for you. And nothing I said was hateful or mean. But to me your comments for the most part are boring and repetitive. You can look that word up to.

Jesus Himself called the 'people like you' vipers; He called some unprofitable servants as well. They were not trying to sell anything either. Jesus was the Image of God; He took a whip and ran the thieving moneychangers out, and overturned their tables.

Jesus called it like He saw it, I am to follow Him, and that is what a "good" Christian does. By the by there are no good Christian or bad Christians, either you are one or you are not. Again, it is not based on my behavior, but on what He did for me. I'm free from sin and judgment, especially the judgment of men/women. And Most especially from sinners/unbelievers.

Margog, this is just an example of the Christian life, it makes you free.

We had a lady from Russia at our church yesterday, she was telling of how they were spreading the gospel all over the country and endured horrible conditions to get to these places and lived in horrible conditions to spread the gospel, the good news. Once they had enough converts, they set up training groups in each village to continue the work.

She told through interpretation about another lady who had traveled with her to and she said "the promised land' meaning the 'states', she (I can't spell their names) the second lady, who could not speak English, told of how her 'other god' ruled by fear. But when she went to a Christian meeting and was healed, then told her mother who disowned her at first, but later came and was also healed, she came to know that God sets you free while man made gods rule by fear. I wish you could have been there. It was an awesome service.

The God I serve in spirit and in truth, does not rule by fear, He does not monitor my every action or word. (He forgives all my iniquities that means sins I commit unaware, I don't have to confess every sin to receive forgiveness, He forgives my iniquities) He doesn't tell me how to dress, only to be a lady, some of you will know what that word means. To be meek and humble in spirit does not mean to be a doormat. Meekness is actually a powerful weapon against our enemy.

There are just too many wonderful things I could say... but unless you are willing to be willing to believe then-------let me make that clearer. Some are called to do special works, others want to learn, dive deeper into the Word, but they are 'lazy', (not speaking of anyone on this board here). One teacher said, 'if you are not willing to go and do what God asks you to, then pray that He will make you willing to be willing.'

So, sometimes we have to be meek and humble unto God, and allow Him to make us willing to be willing to 'understand, or go to Africa, or read the Bible more, or not be mean to people on the internet... whatever.

I understand that you want to know how people can base their faith on something and be so confident that what they believe is true, perhaps Cred said it best... "Never-the-less there are still many here who refuse to accept that all their religious views are based on what they BELIEVE and nothing else... :

When Peter was walking on water... this is just an illustration, Margog... as long as Peter kept his eyes on Jesus he could walk, but when he took his eyes off Jesus and looked at the waves, other people, let other things come in, like you said: and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Logic has nothing to do with spirit. Logic is of the mind. There is no religion or belief that can be explained by logic. When Peter took his eyes off Jesus, he began to sink, but when he called out to Jesus to save him, Jesus did.



We, Christians, must keep their eyes on Jesus and not let the world system in, via news broadcasts or what we see and hear in the workplace…we Must keep out eyes on Jesus, the One who Died for our sins, and was raised for our justification.

Logic is like Mr. Spock... without emotion... any emotion. Now we do not believe in or serve God by emotion. It is by faith, you say faith is a cop out... but without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is what pleases God. My God, the One I believe in was and is and always will be and He created the universe by the Words of His mouth. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit; these three are One.



I do not understand that, but I believe it because something inside me says, "yes, yes that's true". And it's not an emotion, it's a witness, my new born spirit, born of God is reaching out to its Spiritual Father like a natural child reaches for its natural Father.

We believe we are spirit, born of God, we have a soul, which is mind, will and emotions and we live in a body. With the body, we contact this natural world, through the 5 senses, with the soul, we do battle... the will battles against emotions, and the Word of God renews the mind. The mind is the referee so to speak, if the emotion win, we ultimately lose... emotions change daily.

The will of a Christian is to please God, not man... the more the mind is renewed away from worldly things, the stronger the will is to do battle to overcome emotions and please God. Yet, we have been given a free will... we can do as we please... so one does not 'make up their mind' they make up their will.



You can willingly give in to emotions, you can willingly choose to believe God, and you can willingly choose to be ignorant of the things of God. You can willingly fight against something you do not believe exists. (that to me does not make sense and it not logical), but there are those who willingly chose to do that, perhaps it is based on emotions…negative emotions.

But the main thing is to be willing to be willing to believe…….you did once…you really did, I believe you still do…you are just going through a battle with emotions…logic has come to confound your mind and stop your will. You know there is a 'higher power'; your spirit knows it and it calling out for it. You want to believe again, or you would not have posted this question. This is my belief and this is what I believe because it is my belief and I do accept that my views are based on what I believe and nothing else.

Peace and love,
T

Cred said "Never-the-less there are still many here who refuse to accept that all their religious views are based on what they BELIEVE and nothing else ...: Well duh! What else do we need? Is this not trying to 'sell' your BELIEF?
It is not about what you need to believe. It is about what you like others to believe.

No, I have no religious belief to "sell". On your protected Christianity board you can do your "praise the Lord's" as often as you like. From me you may believe whatever you want. But the moment you tell people on any other board that their views are wrong, incorrect, up for review, or that your Christians views are "true" (in any format of true) you will see me reacting, because
WHATEVER YOU BELIEVE, YOU SHOULD PROVE THAT YOUR VIEWS ARE CORRECT, IF YOU WANT TO CONVINCE OTHERS !
This is a discussion board, and any topic posted here is open to comment and discussion, if you like that or not !


I thought he would be smart enough to understand "A** in nine"
I am smart, and I ask people to explain when they post something I do not understand, because English is only my third language. You on the other hand have still not explained what the expression means. I wonder why. Are you not smart enough to do so ?

And please : if you like to receive reactions : post short and few questions. I limit replies. I have also other things in my life to do...

:rolleyes:

·

Faith and religion are very complexed matter if you really want to go deep inside. I am not trying to say that anyone should try getting away from that complexcity. What I am here trying to express is that it all depends onyour self and what you really do. Do believes in something but you are not sure about and you can't really digest it then that might be a kind of blind faith! One should not believe in something because there many out there who does and there are many who tells you to believe in... Real faith should come out from your insightness based upon your own experiences, visuals, researches, different religious aspects and don't ignore that scientific aspects. Everything is interdependent so one should compare all the things all the things that you heard, saw and felt.
All the best!

Great post Tsila!

Cred... how can proof be given! We can only give examples, and that's what Tsila had done. Jesus gave us the choice to believe nor not in Him and those who choose Him find a certain satisfaction, that I don't think you'll ever feel. You may be surrounded by all that you need, but you don't have God. You think that He's not important, and thus feel so. Just the same, you don't know how does it feels to know that you can count on Him, thus you cannot feel it. God only hopes that we make the good choice from the wrong one, and that, we should do it by ourselves, either accepting help from others or not.

Thanks Unk, :)

I didn't realize Cred was such a busy man that he couldn't answer a few questions. He seems to have plenty of time to make A** in nine comments.

Dear Cred, as* in nine means asinine, which means inane, which means mindless; repetitive, uninformative. Since English is just your third language, I guess that's why you do that and the reason you just don't understand what is being said here. Also the reason you can't answer the hard questions. Good excuse, Cred.:p

Unk, you said it all. All we can do is give examples, and with years of experience with God, and His Goodness I have so many examples. But that would not convince Cred, but I'm not here to convince Cred or anyone. I'm just here to tell what I believe is to be true. The gospel, the good news, Jesus died for our sins and rose again for our justification. It is the power of God unto salvation. I can't prove it is on this board, but no one can prove it isn't either.

I do hope Margog had time to read my post. Or maybe he's so tired of the back and forth bickering he has stopped checking in. Sorry Margog.
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Originally Posted by tsila1777 Cred said "Never-the-less there are still many here who refuse to accept that all their religious views are based on what they BELIEVE and nothing else... : Well duh! What else do we need? Is this not trying to 'sell' your BELIEF?


It is not about what you need to believe. It is about what you like others to believe.

yeah, Now I believe this is your third language...I don't understand what you mean here. It's not about what I believe? you said we refuse to believe that our religious views are based on what we believe............Yes I would like others to believe but that's not what your original quote said. You want me to stop believing so therefore you want me to believe the way you do in nothing...correct?

No, I have no religious belief to "sell".

but you want us to stop believing our religious views...right?

Seems like cred is misusing words because in a statement like
You said we refuse to believe that our religious views
Yet he insists believe is not to be used in the context he just used it in
And the word has to be accept not believe:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Cred,

Is this short enough for you?

You said people are allowed to believe what they want to believe<--Doesn't that to some point contradict what you just said above: many here who refuse to accept that all their religious views are based on what they BELIEVE and nothing else “? Are you not by that statement trying to change the way people believe?

WHATEVER YOU BELIEVE, YOU SHOULD PROVE THAT YOUR VIEWS ARE CORRECT, IF YOU WANT TO CONVINCE OTHERS !





Why did you feel it necessary to yell at a southern lady?


DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? ARE YOU REALLY SO DENSE? YOU CAN'T PROVE SPIRITUAL THINGS! BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUAL! THEY ARE NOT NATURAL! YOU CAN'T SEE, SMELL, OR HEAR THEM. FAITH IS A SPIRIT. THE BIBLE SAYS THE SPIRIT OF FAITH.....YOU CAN'T SEE A SPIRIT! YOU CAN'T SEE ELECTRICITY, BUT YOU CAN FEEL IT, AND YOU CAN SEE THE RESULTS OF IT. YOU CAN FEEL THE SPIRIT OF GOD WHEN YOU HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. YOU CAN HEAR HIS VOICE, HIS STILL SMALL VOICE ON THE INSIDE OF YOU. AND YOU CAN SEE RESULTS OF FAITH.

So sorry, southern ladies do tend to yell back. We're just bred that way.

But that's what I meant my asinine. It's foolish to ask someone to prove what they believe by faith. That's like asking someone to prove they think you're stupid. How could someone prove that?

If you want proof, here's some proof, said this:


"Dear God, creator of heaven and earth. I am a sinner. I know and believe in my heart, and confess with my mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord. I receive Him now as my Lord and I ask Him to come into my heart and make Himself known to me. I want a relationship with You, so that I can be in Your Presence in eternity. In Jesus' Name amen."

Silas,
You scare me.

Cred said: This is a discussion board, and any topic posted here is open to comment and discussion, if you like that or not !


Where did this A** in nine question come from? Right out of the blue! Of course it's a discussion board that's why I'm commenting on here.

I was discussing the posted topic with you.

But my post was too long for you to comment on... so I broke it down for you in as simple English as I could.

And if didn't like it, I wouldn't keep coming back. Duh again.

Silas,
You scare me.

Needy, as the man said, "Are you talking to me?"

If so, how do I scare you sweetie?

I guess it's the swing between "sweetie" and yelling insults and demeaning people.

I see not much has changed with this post..
I think sometimes you have to realize some people are just not going to change their views because you think they are wrong.
Each perspective is correct to the one that owns it..
NEEDKARMA isn't going to believe in anything because you bring up Jesus, the bible or any other connotations that refer to religion. HE SIMPLY disagrees and doesn't believe..
LIVE AND LET LIVE...
Talking until your blue in the face and writing in anger won't make CRED see your views any differently. Faith cannot be proven and neither can God, therefore they do not believe.
THAT is not MY personal view, but I can accept those that differ from mine and understand the differences between us are simply that, DIFFERENCES..
Not that you have nothing valuable or worthy to say, just don't expect each person to view it the way you express it..

Yelling insults? Give me an example please. Cred yelled at me first anyway. What about that?

I agree with everything you say shattered soul, except that you seem to be implying that what is true for one, is not true for someone else. That may be the case in some areas, but in other areas it isn't. For example...

Either there once was a man walking around on this earth before a female ever existed, or there wasn't.

Either we share a common ancestor with an ape, or we don't.

Either there is an all-powerful Christian god who cares about us, can simultaneously hear billions of prayers, and sent himself to earth in order to be hideously tortured, or there isn't.

These are not matters of opinion. They either happened or they didn't. I see nothing wrong with trying to educate people in what science has to say about the veracity of such claims. I also see nothing wrong with a religious person trying to convince me otherwise. I do try and keep an open mind. But other than this, you are spot on and insults should always be avoided. But it is hard sometimes for both sides not to seem like they are talking down to each other. In the end, I see nothing wrong with good debate as long as it can be kept relatively cordial. What I HATE is when mods like Fr_Chuck shut down a thread simply because someone starts making a little too much sense! A mod's bias shouldn't be so obvious.

... I didn't realize Cred was such a busy man that he couldn't answer a few questions.... Dear Cred, as* in nine means asinine, which means inane, which means mindless; repetitive, uninformative. Since English is just your third language, I guess that's why you do that and the reason you just don't understand what is being said here. Also the reason you can't answer the hard questions ....
Well, that I do not recognize unknown-to-me abbreviations do not make me someone who just does not understand what is being said here. That is took two repeat questions in two different posts by me before you explained what you meant with that abbreviation shows more of your negativity than of my supposed lack of comprehension skills.

Besides that : your various aggressive posts here also provide a perfect view of your religious intolerance!!

:rolleyes:

·

...For example...

Either there once was a man walking around on this earth before a female ever existed, or there wasn't.

Either we share a common ancestor with an ape, or we don't.

Either there is an all-powerful Christian god who cares about us, can simultaneously hear billions of prayers, and sent himself to earth in order to be hideously tortured, or there isn't.

These are not matters of opinion. They either happened or they didn't. I see nothing wrong with trying to educate people in what science has to say about the veracity of such claims....

I agree w/ you on 1 & 2, but science has nothing to say on #3. It's when someone tries to mix science and religion that the real arguments begin. While scientific methods can investigate some supernatural occurrences (like ESP, ghosts... ) an onmiscient and omnipotent deity like God is far beyond any science investigation.

So, for me, #3 is a matter of opinion. I say it's irrational, believers say it's obvious. And never the twain shall meet...



-

So, for me, #3 is a matter of opinion. I say it's irrational, believers say it's obvious. And never the twain shall meet....-

Can we respectfully delve into this a little deeper?

I agree that it's not the purpose of science to explain whether any gods exist. But I disagree that the existence of god is a matter of opinion. Again, either a god exists, or it doesn't. And the Christian god requires an even much even bigger parlay than that, since they are claiming very precise attributes and claims for their god that are different from all other gods man does or ever has believed in.

I forgot who it was that said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

To this extent, many religions do in fact trespass directly within the boundaries of science. Things like virgin births, resurrections, surviving death, and turning water into wine, all violate scientific laws and science does have something to say about them. Do you disagree?

"...the existence of god a matter of opinion." Actually that's a tough one. Since there is no way to scientifically prove or disprove any god's existence, that makes it a matter of opinion. I consider such an entity's existence an irrationality that cannot exist. But since I can never have any proof of that, it remains my opinion.

As far as the artifacts, such as virgin births, etc, yes, science can provide explanation or disproof on the occurrence. Believers won't accept it, of course. When the Shroud of Turin was exposed, believers just claimed the science was faulty. And they're hoping, and some claim not, that when science cannot provide a reasonable explanation or can't agree on one, believers accept that as a failure of science and 'proof' of their 'opinion.'



-

Actually that's a tough one. Since there is no way to scientifically prove or disprove any god's existence, that makes it a matter of opinion. I consider such an entity's existence an irrationality that cannot exist. But since I can never have any proof of that, it remains my opinion.

I can accept that, because I understand where you're coming from and I hold the same view. That is, I realize that neither I nor science can ever satisfactorily prove or disprove the existence of god. The fact remains however, that the truth DOES exist one way or the other. How you and I arrived at our respective belief was through personalized logical conjecture given what we think we know about science and reality. So I'll leave it alone. I think we're really only disagreeing on semantics.

Lobroster - I was going to bring up the semantics, but decided to try and explain further instead. So much disagreement on this seems to be a matter of 'failure to communicate.'

So, yeqah. I agree <G>

Ok, I get that, that people have faith in what they cannot see... but if you can't see it, prove it, or support it with anything other than texts from within the religion or testimonies from those who are part of that religious movement... then how sure can you be that YOUR religion is CORRECT? Because other religions go off the same basis-

Then it boils down to your judgement.

If you have gotten to the point that you have accepted the evidence for the existence of God. And you have moved to the point of deciding which religion represents God best for you, then this is where your discernment comes in.

Which religion has the best evidence?
Which religion as the most wise teachings?
Which religion has the most impact on your life?

How sure can I be? At this point in my life, I'm absolutely certain that the Catholic Church is the true Church which God in His Wisdom placed here to guide us and to reveal His Will.

How sure can YOU be? I don't know.


that you can't have proof,

??

Says who? Proof is the evidence which convinces YOU. I have proof. I reviewed the same evidence possibly which you rejected. For me, it was proof. For you it wasn't.

That doesn't mean that I don't have proof. That means that you don't have proof. I am thoroughly convinced.


you have to have faith, and they have the support of THEIR texts and THEIR believers. Do you see what I mean?

Yes. They have faith in one set of facts. I have faith in another. And you have faith in another. That's free will.


Each religion can have the same TYPES of 'proof' and ideas about faith and believing what you cannot see... but if no one can see anything they believe in, and it's just blind trust or faith or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it, how can you be so CONFIDENT that what you believe is right?

It's the same way that you can be so sure that the Big Bang happened or that evolution is true.

You are convinced by the evidence for those theories. I am convinced by the evidence for God's existence and for the truth of Catholic Teaching.


Or do religious people just believe that what they believe is right FOR THEM because it works FOR THEM and that others don't necessarily have to believe in the same way as they do as long as what they are doing WORKS.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. But I believe the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of truth. And I believe everyone who accepts the Catholic Church's teachings is doing the best they can for their souls.

I also believe and the Catholic Church teaches, that each man has a free will to accept or reject either the whole truth or any part thereof. That means that people frequently accept and believe things which don't work and are wrong for them. But they prefer those beliefs to the truth.


That kind of view I'd have a much easier time understanding.

That's because its easier. No person in their right mind would ever make up a religion like the Catholic Church. That speaks volumes to me that it is the true religion of God. Why make up a religion with such high moral and ethical standards?

Why not a religion where we can party day and night and live for ourselves? If I was going to make up a religion, that's one I'd make up and did for many years. But now I prefer to accept the truth. And the truth is inconvenient for those who want a religion of self glorification.


But how can those who believe in something they cannot see or provide evidence for be so sure that their beliefs are so true and set in stone and definite that they then go on to try to convince others that their way is the only way, or the best way, or the 'truth'?

You keep saying we don't have evidence. But we do.

Once you accept that we have evidence, then it should follow logically that we can be sure enough to try to convince others of the same conclusions which we have drawn from the evidence.


That's what I'm trying to understand, partially.

I hope that helped.


If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

I did so in message #90.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/search.php?searchid=3010048

Sincerely,

De Maria

At this point in my life, I'm absolutely certain that the Catholic Church is the true Church which God in His Wisdom placed here to guide us and to reveal His Will.

I've been curious about this for quite some time. Not just about you, but all Christians...

Why would you think God placed a Catholic church here? There is no mention of Christianity in the old testament. Jesus himself was born a Jew and died a Jew. His mother was a Jew. There is no reason to think he considered himself anything but a Jew. Or am I wrong about that? Christianity never would have existed if it wasn't for a disagreement over the divinity of Jesus. It just so happens that many Jews never saw his miracles or resurrection and didn't believe the few people who said they did.

Am I all wrong about this? If so, I'd appreciate if someone explained it to me. I never did understand how Christianity got started or why God would bless it, let alone give it to us (and I was raised Catholic myself). Thanks.

Read the bible and you'll find your answer there...
p.s. not all bible are the same... suggest something like the living bible

read the bible and you'll find your answer there......
p.s. not all bible are the same....suggest something like the living bible

Are you answering my question? The OT has nothing to say about Christianity, and the NT was written by the few who disagreed over Jesus' divinity. So how can I expect to find the right answer there?

Like 1300starlet said if you read the Bible, especially Acts and Pentecost, it explains about the Church and 'first the jew then the gentile'. The OT is rich in what Christians believe.
I am not going through the whole thing but will try and answer more specific questions.


IF you are seriously wanting to know I found a link that explains SOME of it

The Bible & Archaeology - The Book of Acts: The Church Begins (http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn030/acts.html)

Check the links at the bottom of that site too

Are you answering my question? The OT has nothing to say about Christianity, and the NT was written by the few who disagreed over Jesus' divinity. So how can I expect to find the right answer there?


Lobro ofcouse niether the New or the Old testament mension the word "Christianity" because this is a term that was coined in AD. To describe people who follow the teachings of Christ.
The Old testament is just pages upon pages of Prophesy about the coming of the Messiah (i.e Christ) who is to come and dies for the sins of the world. If you read Isaiah 53 of the old testament it is a wonderful example of how a man, Isaiah, who lived thousands of years before Christ, wrote and prophesied of Christ's coming. Isaiah describes every aspect of the Crusifiction of Christs hundreds of years before it happened. So the Old testament is consists of prophetic writing about the coming redemption in Christ.

Like 1300starlet said if you read the Bible, especially Acts and Pentecost, it explains about the Church and 'first the jew then the gentile'. The OT is rich in what Christians believe.
I am not going through the whole thing but will try and answer more specific questions.


IF you are seriously wanting to know I found a link that explains SOME of it

The Bible & Archaeology - The Book of Acts: The Church Begins (http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn030/acts.html)


Thank you. It looks long, but I'll read the whole thing if you think the answer to my question is there. Again, I'm specifically looking for reasons one can assume that God sanctions Christianity over Judaism (or any other religion). Since Christianity came after Jesus' death, I don't see how that's possible.

I imagine it's mainly through inferring that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the OT? But this doesn't explain why so many Jews who go by the same OT disagree. Surely, there is no reason to think that the few people who started Christianity were that much smarter than all the Jews? I'll read through the link. Thanks again.

Again, I'm specifically looking for reasons why one can assume that God sanctions Christianity over Judaism (or any other religion). Since Christianity came after Jesus' death, I don't see how that's possible.

I imagine it's mainly through inferring that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the OT? But this doesn't explain why so many Jews who go by the exact same OT disagree. Surely, there is no reason to think that the few people who started Christianity were that much smarter than all the Jews?


God does not sanction Christianity over Judaism
Look at it this way you have two children
Judaism is your first child
Christianity is your second child

You love them each for their unique individuality.
The Bible never says that God forsake the Jews for the Christian
It says first the Jew (as the first born's rights) THEN the Christian was grafted in.
In fact the Christian is looked at more like an adopted child.

I DON'T THINK GOD NEEDS RELIGION TO EXIST.. CERTAIN PEOPLE NEED RELIGION TO PROVE GOD EXISTS.
Supporting your evidence based on bibilical "FACTS" isn't a way to communicate effectively with those that do not believe in religion.
GOD CAN EXIST WITHOUT RELIGION OR PROOF
And that is because for me I don't need either to believe.
Now can we just agree to disagree? It seems some have faith to believe and some have faith in not believing.
Attacking what someone believes doesn't make anyone's argument more credible or convicing. (on either side)
Many people who believe in God aren't Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other religion either. Organized religion is a tool that has been used throughout to control people and society. THAT IS A FACT.

I DON'T THINK GOD NEEDS RELIGION TO EXIST.. CERTAIN PEOPLE NEED RELIGION TO PROVE GOD EXISTS.
Supporting your evidence based on bibilical "FACTS" isn't a way to communicate effectively with those that do not believe in religion.
GOD CAN EXIST WITHOUT RELIGION OR PROOF
and that is because for me I don't need either to believe.
Now can we just agree to disagree?? It seems some have faith to believe and some have faith in not believing.
Attacking what someone believes doesn't make anyone's argument more credible or convicing. (on either side)
Many people who believe in God aren't Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any other religion either. Organized religion is a tool that has been used throughout to control people and society. THAT IS A FACT.

Greenie :D AMEN!! Ain't that the truth!

It is possible that there is a "god" that has no relation to the monotheistic religions that came out of the tribal desert cultures... Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

It is important to understand that no matter who you are. :)

I've been curious about this for quite some time. Not just about you, but all Christians...

OK.


Why would you think God placed a Catholic church here?

For the same reason that the US established a Supreme Court.


There is no mention of Christianity in the old testament.

Yes, there is. Christ means Messiah or anointed. Christianity is the fellowship of the Messiah. The Old Testament prophecied the coming of the Messiah and that the world, including non Jews would follow Him.

Psalms 2 8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the Gentiles for thy inheritance, and the utmost parts of the earth for thy possession.


Jesus himself was born a Jew and died a Jew. His mother was a Jew. There is no reason to think he considered himself anything but a Jew. Or am I wrong about that?

You are correct. And being a Jew, He knew about the Messianic Prophecies which were fulfilled in Him:

Luke 20: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and so to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures, the things that were concerning him.

John 5 39 Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting; and the same are they that give testimony of me.


Christianity never would have existed if it wasn't for a disagreement over the divinity of Jesus. It just so happens that many Jews never saw his miracles or resurrection and didn't believe the few people who said they did.

Do you mean that if all the Jews had accepted Jesus' Divinity, Christianity would not have come about?

I think you are wrong. If they had all accepted Jesus' Divinity, they would have accepted the fact that He is the Christ and Christianity would have been born without bloodshed.


Am I all wrong about this?

I think so, but it is only speculation.


If so, I'd appreciate if someone explained it to me.

I hope this helped.


I never did understand how Christianity got started or why God would bless it, let alone give it to us (and I was raised Catholic myself). Thanks.

Christianity was started by God. That is why He blessed it.

Isaias 55 11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

God does not sanction Christianity over Judaism
Look at it this way you have two children
Judaism is your first child
Christianity is your second child

You love them each for their unique individuality.
The Bible never says that God forsake the Jews for the Christian
It says first the Jew (as the first born's rights) THEN the Christian was grafted in.
In fact the Christian is looked at more like an adopted child.

I like this, but still don't understand something...

Many Christians believe the ONLY to heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior. This means God is allowing his '1st child' to suffer in hell for eternity. I've said this before... There is nothing... NOTHING my children could ever do to me that I would allow either of them to suffer a fate like this. They could not believe in me, disown me, disgrace me. My love for them is unconditional and far too great. So why does god feel differently about most of his children?

Like shatteredsoul was saying READ #202
Churches/religions/Christians want to turn God into a formula that fits their religious traditions rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them in what God is really saying.
Churches have some very good basic doctrinal truths but they all veer off the truth with their own speculations and rituals that have nothing to do with God.

I like this, but still don't understand something...

Many Christians believe the ONLY to heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior. This means God is allowing his '1st child' to suffer in hell for eternity. I've said this before... There is nothing... NOTHING my children could ever do to me that I would allow either of them to suffer like this. So why does god feel differently about some of his children?

Lets say you have two children. One of them loves you and one of them hates you.

The one who loves you wants to live near you so that you can do things together and hang out and simply enjoy each other's company. As a consequence, he is nearby and you have the opportunity to give him gifts, treat him to meals and otherwise have a good time.

The one who hates you, wants nothing to do with you and would rather be as far away from you as possible. He doesn't want your money or your gifts.

You love them both. Are you going to force the one who hates you and wants nothing to do with you to live with you?

So it is with God's children who go to hell. They have rejected all God's gifts and efforts to keep them out of hell. They have condemned themselves.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I imagine it's mainly through inferring that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the OT? But this doesn't explain why so many Jews who go by the exact same OT disagree. Surely, there is no reason to think that the few people who started Christianity were that much smarter than all the Jews? I'll read through the link. Thanks again.

Don't forget the First ever Christians were Jews. The reason why Some Jews do not accept Jesus as the promised Messiah is because they do no accept the prophesies of the Messiah as the "suffering servant", they only accept the prophesies of the Messiah as the "triamphant King".
The Old Testament Has two set of Messianic Prophesy; One is Prophesy of the Messiah the suffering servant who will come and Die for Humanity's sin, the second Is prophesy of the Messiah who will come and rule and rien On Earth.
So when Jesus Said he was the messiah the Jews expected the messiah to be A King, Yet Jesus came as a humble servant born of a carpenter and was crusified like a criminal. Therefore many Jews did not Accept him because at that time they were expecting a Messiah who would defeat the Romans and save the Jews from Bondage. Jesus did not fulfil this expectation of theirs. The old testament does say The Messiah will be Killed as a sacrificial Lamb for all man kind. The Old testament also prophesies that the messiah will be rejected by many.
Hope that helps.

Yes God doesn't condemn anybody people do condemn themselves by their choices.

THANK U NOHELPFOR U!! I think some people want to just argue and that is not what I am doing. Thank you CHOUX for understanding my point. Instead of going back to the same old argument that doesn't make people think any differently. IF you want people to listen to you, than stop and listen yourself. My post isn't inciting any conflict or argument so therefore certain people ignore it and keep going. That's too bad because for a real debate to take place you have to understand the other perspectives, not just keep arguing your own!
Both churches and the United States Supreme Court, AS WELL AS CHRISTIANITY were started by PEOPLE.. That is true for every religion. PEOPLE who lived during the time of prophets or messiahs who wrote down what they THOUGHT And INTERPRETED as GOD's WORD and what "he" intended for us. YOu are so stuck on your own religion you can't see the bigger picture!

You love them both. Are you going to force the one who hates you and wants nothing to do with you to live with you?

No, but I would still be generous with my love towards him. I especially would not allow him to spend eternity in the worst suffering and agony imaginable. Here's something you don't seem to be considering...

IF you are right... Then this earthly life is an imperceivable short amount of time. Would you let your toddler going through his 'terrible twos' dictate what he wants for himself? No matter how irritable and cranky he was, would you let his actions have eternal consequences?

Now consider that even a full 80 year life isn't even close to being proportionally equivalent to a two year old where eternity is concerned.

I like this, but still don't understand something...

Many Christians believe the ONLY to heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior. This means God is allowing his '1st child' to suffer in hell for eternity. I've said this before... There is nothing... NOTHING my children could ever do to me that I would allow either of them to suffer a fate like this. They could not believe in me, disown me, disgrace me. My love for them is unconditional and far too great. So why does god feel differently about most of his children?

Lobro its as simple as this. If you look at Jewish history you will find that on "Passover" the Jews had to offer the blood of a sacrificial lamb for remission of sin. The Bible says the wages sin is death.God is holy and can not look upon sin and only the blood of an innocent lamb could remove this sin.
So God sent Christ as the sacrificial lamb for all man kind so that who ever accepts Him as savior, God gives him/her the power to become a child of God. Without the Blood of Jesus that he shed for our sin, we can not approach God because of our sin. God can not pretend we did not sin, that is why God sent his only Begotten Son Jesus to die in OUR place. So all we have to do is accept this gift of salvation He so freely gave. If we reject this Gift then we are destined to iternity of separation from God because of our sin.

Yeah the OT is a foreshadow of Jesus in a sense.

Yes God doesn't condemn anybody people do condemn themselves by their choices.

Precisely

One of many contradictions of Christianity is the belief of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and yet having to be IN FEAR that God is going to PUNISH US for our SINS.. Why would GOD give us free will to make mistakes and sin, if we were going to be punished for it..? I think that is purely a religious tool created by man and not a rule GOD made up.

We are here to live and let live, to learn and grow spiritually, and to love and be loved. TRUE growth occurs through failure, defeat and challenges of the ego and the spirit. Without sin and mistakes, how do we learn> and how do we get punished if that is the only way to learn.. through experience..? It would seem almost impossible.

Maybe our soul goes on to learn again and again until we understand the simplicity of this existence. WE make these rules that we must live by, but yet not one person on this earth can live up to them, and they aren't supposed to. THe most reformed, or born again CHRISTIAN with the firmest and most adament beliefs are usually people who have made such big mistakes, or struggled with addiction or their past and turn to religion to feel forgiven and saved. WELL without those mistakes, they would have never discovered "God".. so realistically WE are supposed to "sin", make mistakes and grow to become better people. WE don't have to be religious to have faith, believe in God or to be good people.

I heard fear God explained as meaning humbling yourself to God in awesome reverence to him. It is not meant to be scared sh!Tless.

One of many contradictions of Christianity is the belief of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and yet having to be IN FEAR that God is going to PUNISH US for our SINS.. Why would GOD give us free will to make mistakes and sin, if we were going to be punished for it..?? I think that is purely a religous tool created by man and not a rule GOD made up.

.

The wages of sin is death and we all sin. That is why Christ died in our place so that we would be blameless before God.
God's love is unconditional however spending eternity with him is Conditional. Our sin separates us from Him, but accepting what Christ did for us, reconciles us to God.

I've been curious about this for quite some time. Not just about you, but all Christians...

Why would you think God placed a Catholic church here? There is no mention of Christianity in the old testament. Jesus himself was born a Jew and died a Jew. His mother was a Jew. There is no reason to think he considered himself anything but a Jew. Or am I wrong about that? Christianity never would have existed if it wasn't for a disagreement over the divinity of Jesus. It just so happens that many Jews never saw his miracles or resurrection and didn't believe the few people who said they did.

Am I all wrong about this? If so, I'd appreciate if someone explained it to me. I never did understand how Christianity got started or why God would bless it, let alone give it to us (and I was raised Catholic myself). Thanks.

Lob,
Not to start a debate with anyone.. just expressing my personal views here.

I believe it has been the same Almighty and the same beliefs that the Almighty has sent down since the beginning of mankind.

Every now and then a reminder is sent I believe as Prophets/Messengers and the people who had accepted previous Prophets/Messengers deny the new one,which may or may not become a new religion.
And then there are those who accept the new Messenger/Prophet and then that becomes a new religion.
Then there are those that believe in neither the old Messenger or the new one,which is a group with different beliefs.
This I believe is how different religions came to be,but my view is that it has been the same Almighty,sending the same message of Monotheism.

I understand the laws of CHRISTIANITY THANK YOU.. I am telling you that they are contradictory of a God who loves unconditionally. I know what Jesus died for and I don't need a bible lesson from you. Believe it or not I grew up up with religion. Unfortunately, YOU cannot veer from the words of the bible and speak your truth from YOUR OWN HEART and YOUR OWN WORDS..
THE WAGE OF SIN IS DEATH? Even SAINTS DIE.. so whether you sin or not.. death is inevitable and neither you nor I know where the soul goes, YOU only know what YOU BELIEVE..
Whether you accept CHRIST OR GOD, doesn't change the unconditional love for us.. so that is a rule set up by MAN to scare us into not sinning.. .
NOR does it change whether our soul goes on...
Being aware of something or not, doesn't make it less true.
We are loved simply because we exist, it doesn't matter if we love back or believe.

[QUOTE=shatteredsoul]I understand the laws of CHRISTIANITY THANK YOU.. I am telling you that they are contradictory of a God who loves unconditionally. I know what Jesus died for and I don't need a bible lesson from you. Believe it or not I grew up up with religion. Unfortunately, YOU cannot veer from the words of the bible and speak your truth from YOUR OWN HEART and YOUR OWN WORDS..

lol... these are not my words, this is from the Bible.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.




THE WAGE OF SIN IS DEATH? Even SAINTS DIE.. so whether you sin or not.. death is inevitable and neither you nor I know where the soul goes, YOU only know what YOU BELIEVE..

It is SPIRITUAL DEATH not physical death.. duh


Whether you accept CHRIST OR GOD, doesn't change the unconditional love for us.. so that is a rule set up by MAN to scare us into not sinning.. .
NOR does it change whether our soul goes on...
Being aware of something or not, doesn't make it less true.
We are loved simply because we exist, it doesn't matter if we love back or believe.

I take you dont believe in the Bible so I can't argue with what ever you beliefs are.

Lobro its as simple as this.

MoonlitWaves has been kind enough to try and explain some of this to me and either I am too stubborn, or too stupid to get it.


The Bible says the wages sin is death.God is holy and can not look upon sin and only the blood of an innocent lamb could remove this sin.
So God sent Christ as the sacrificial lamb for all man kind so that who ever accepts Him as savior, God gives him/her the power to become a child of God. Without the Blood of Jesus that he shed for our sin, we can not approach God because of our sin. God can not pretend we did not sin, that is why God sent his only Begotten Son Jesus to die in OUR place. So all we have to do is accept this gift of salvation He so freely gave. If we reject this Gift then we are destined to iternity of separation from God because of our sin.

This whole bit about God's thirst for blood, death, torture, and sacrifice just doesn't make sense to an objective observer. So my first problem is with this. I can't even move on until I understand how you can consider such brutal and torturous demands to be that of a loving god.

No, but I would still be generous with my love towards him.

And God is. Because God is love.


I especially would not allow him to spend eternity in the worst suffering and agony imaginable.

How would you stop him?

How many parents counsel their children not to do drugs? Yet some do. And they go through hell and sometimes never come out.

How many parents counsel their children not to join gangs? Yet some do. And they live in hellish conditions and sometimes die there.

How would you prevent him?


Here's something you don't seem to be considering...

IF you are right... Then this earthly life is an imperceivable short amount of time. Would you let your toddler going through his 'terrible twos' dictate what he wants for himself? No matter how irritable and cranky he was, would you let his actions have eternal consequences?

Of course not. But we are not toddlers are we? We understand the choices we make. And that is what you are not considering.


Now consider that even a full 80 year life isn't even close to being proportionally equivalent to a two year old where eternity is concerned.

A comparison between 80 years and eternity doesn't even compute. But that isn't the issue. The issue is, do you understand the consequences of your actions.

An eighty year old does understand. A toddler doesn't.

And you also understand. Here's what I get from your message. You understand the will of God. You understand that if you do God's will you go to heaven but if you refuse to do God's will you go to hell.

But you don't like it. You don't want to do God's will and you don't want to go to hell either.

So you have a choice. Which do you hate most, hell or God's will?

Sincerely,

De Maria

How would you stop him?

How many parents counsel their children not to do drugs? Yet some do. And they go through hell and sometimes never come out.

How many parents counsel their children not to join gangs? Yet some do. And they live in hellish conditions and sometimes die there.

How would you prevent him?

I'm going under the presumption that God is omnipotent. That is, he is god and can extend his will. Wait! Before you say it...

I've heard about the free will argument. But certainly God could do something about the eternal hell thing. Maybe lessen the eternal torture of his own children a little. Do you think that's unreasonable?


But we are not toddlers are we?

Compared to who? Compared to god I would think we are much less than toddlers.


We understand the choices we make. And that is what you are not considering.

Some of us do. Others like me, obviously don't understand. You say one thing, a Hindu says another, a Muslim or Jew something else altogether different. So no... Many of us do NOT understand the choices we are making. According to you, over 2/3 of the world's population who aren't Christians don't understand.




And you also understand. Here's what I get from your message. You understand the will of God. You understand that if you do God's will you go to heaven but if you refuse to do God's will you go to hell.

Please try to grasp this, because I think it's very important...

I understand it insofar as it is YOUR point of view (or the Christian point of view). I also understand much of what is the Jewish point of view, and Muslim point of view. Added together, I do not understand it all, because you ALL can't be right! Does that make any sense to you? Just because YOU'RE convinced you're right, doesn't convince me, or Muslims, or Jews.


You don't want to do God's will and you don't want to go to hell either.

Trust me when I say that if I really believed there was a God, I would be more pious than almost anyone I know. That is, after I figured out which God I should worship and which religion I should practice.


Which do you hate most, hell or God's will?

This is a good question. I guess I most hate the notion that I and most of humanity will suffer for eternity when there was such little evidence for us to go on. If there is a hell, most atheists will not regret any decision they have made, but that god was such a trickster and never gave them any good reason to believe what they were supposed to. It would be such an easy thing to get me to believe. But it doesn't seem forthcoming for me.

This whole bit about God's thirst for blood, death, torture, and sacrifice just doesn't make sense to an objective observer. So my first problem is with this. I can't even move on until I understand how you can consider such brutal and torturous demands to be that of a loving god.

That's the kind of stuf that led me to the irrationality of a god. And don't forget torturing Job just to win a bet with Lucifer... How can I respect a being as so wonderful and omnipotent if it's got all the negative emotions we're not supposed to have? Jealousy, vengeance, pride, even insecurity...

MoonlitWaves has been kind enough to try and explain some of this to me and either I am too stubborn, or too stupid to get it.

This whole bit about God's thirst for blood, death, torture, and sacrifice just doesn't make sense to an objective observer. So my first problem is with this. I can't even move on until I understand how you can consider such brutal and torturous demands to be that of a loving god.

That's exactly the same reason why I was once atheist myself Rob.

But now its simple to understand. God is omnipotent Lord. What God giveth God can take away.

And God doesn't thirst for blood. He thirsts for Love. He doesn't need it, He wants it for our good so that we can remain joined to Him for eternity.

Yes, God is a loving God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That's the kind of stuf that led me to the irrationality of a god. And don't forget torturing Job just to win a bet with Lucifer.... How can I respect a being as so wonderful and omnipotent if it's got all the negative emotions we're not supposed to have? Jealousy, vengence, pride, even insecurity....

There is jealousy and there is jealousy. To be jealous for the things which rightfully belong to you is not sin. It is justice.

To be jealous for the things that don't rightfully belong to you, that is sin.

The same can be said of vengeance. Vengeance achieved by the proper legal channels is approved by God. That is why the death sentence issued by legal authority is not sin.

However, vengeance of they type which does not secure the assurance of a trial to determine the guilt or innocence of the party being persecuted is surely a sin.

Pride. Is God proud? I've never heard that. God is humble and expects to be rightfully glorified for the wonderful things of this life. That is not pride, that is justice.

Insecurity? You'll have to explain that one. I have no idea how you attribute insecurity to God.

As for Job, you might read Job and follow his example. Ask God yourself, directly. God will answer.

Sincerely,

De Maria

And God doesn't thirst for blood.

Then how do you explain all the BLOOD?

Seriously De Maria, won't you (or somebody), please explain it? This is where you accuse non-believers of coming on here and causing trouble and being disingenuous. This is where the mods shut down threads because it gets ugly. But it is only a severe chasm that we stand on opposite ends of in our understanding of reality.

If God does not thirst for blood then how do you explain all the plagues he has descended onto man? The (required) hideous torture of His Son Jesus Christ? The psyche job he pulled on Abraham who was inches away from slitting his own son's throat? And so on, and so on, ad nauseam.

These are legitimate questions. Questions that the faithful seem able to put far out of their minds when it comes to the god they believe in and worship. In any other circumstance, you would quickly castigate anyone else who even thought such atrocities. Yet your own book states how God has thrived on them time and time again and you have no problem with it.

Can you at least understand why this seems like an incredible double standard to some people?

Then how do you explain all the BLOOD?
De Maria won't. He can't. And he knows that...


Can you at least understand why this seems like an incredible double standard to some people?
He can't. Too difficult... Much easier to believe in wild religious claims...

:D

·

Then how do you explain all the BLOOD?

As I said before, what God giveth God can take away. God gave us life, which is symbolized very well by the blood.


Seriously De Maria, won't you (or somebody), please explain it?

I have.


This is where you accuse non-believers of coming on here and causing trouble and being disingenuous.

No. You and I are having a very civil discussion.

People like Credendo for instance, all he says is, "You have no evidence" over and over ad nauseum.

Other non-believers simply come here to insult what they don't believe.

At least, you seem to be considering what I am saying. And you are asking incisive questions.


This is where the mods shut down threads because it gets ugly.

I don't think they'll shut you down, unless you start insulting all Christians because you disagree with them.


But it is only a severe chasm that we stand on opposite ends of in our understanding of reality.

Keep asking these questions and one day we'll be on the same side. I sincerely believe it.

As I said, I also became atheist because of questions such as these.


If God does not thirst for blood then how do you explain all the plagues he has descended onto man?

Simple. They were disobedient. They had made up their minds to do evil. So God, in His Justice, humbled them in order to give them the opportunity to turn to Him. Then, if they remained obstinately against Him, to protect His People, He eliminated them.


The hideous torture of His Son Jesus Christ?

This was done by men.


The psyche job he pulled on Abraham who was inches away from slitting his own son's throat?

No blood was shed here. It was a lesson that God does not want the sacrifice of our children as the Molochs and Baals, the false gods of the pagans of Abrahams did.


And so on, and so on, ad nauseam.

Be specific.


These are legitimate questions.

I agree.


Questions that the faithful seem able to put far out of their minds when it comes to the god they believe in and worship.

Only those who believe in a caricature of God. I don't. I believe in God All Mighty.

Psalm 138 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face? 8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.


In any other circumstance, you would quickly castigate anyone else who even thought such atrocities.

I believe in justice. Therefore I believe in the God of Justice.

Evil people, like Stalin, and Hitler deserve the punishment they receive. If they never repented of the evil they committed, and they are in hell, so be it. It is just.

All who attack innocent blood, those who kill children in the womb and commit those atrocities and never repent but praise such behaviour also will reap what they sow.


Yet your own book states how God has thrived on them time and time again and you have no problem with it.

No it doesn't. You misunderstand the book.


Can you at least understand why this seems like an incredible double standard to some people?

Yes. I've been there.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria won't. He can't. And he knows that ...


He can't. Too difficult ... Much easier to believe in wild religious claims ...

:D

·

See what I mean Rob?

I'm going under the presumption that God is omnipotent. That is, he is god and can extend his will. Wait! Before you say it...

I've heard about the free will argument. But certainly God could do something about the eternal hell thing.

There is only one Eternal Rob. Can you guess what or should I say, Who, that is?


Maybe lessen the eternal torture of his own children a little. Do you think that's unreasonable?

Not at all. Have you ever tried to comfort a child who doesn't want to be comforted?


Compared to who? Compared to god I would think we are much less than toddlers.


True. But you and I are not without understanding. We understand what we are saying. At least, I know I do. I understand that I have a choice. Do God's will or suffer the consequences. What is so difficult about that concept?


Some of us do. Others like me, obviously don't understand. You say one thing, a Hindu says another, a Muslim or Jew something else altogether different. So no... Many of us do NOT understand the choices we are making. According to you, over 2/3 of the world's population who aren't Christians don't understand.

Did I say that? No. That is how you characterize the situation. It is you who portray people as toddlers. I believe people have reason, understanding and free will.

Each one of those religious people that you mentioned have each viewed the evidence and decided they agreed with it.

And as I said earlier, I believe you also understand. You simply don't like the message being delivered.


Please try to grasp this, because I think it's very important...

Ok.


I understand it insofar as it is YOUR point of view (or the Christian point of view). I also understand much of what is the Jewish point of view, and Muslim point of view. Added together, I do not understand it all, because you ALL can't be right! Does that make any sense to you? Just because YOU'RE convinced you're right, doesn't convince me, or Muslims, or Jews.

That is exactly correct in my view. I was an atheist and convinced I was right. One day, I saw the error of my understanding. I then was convinced that God existed. But I still had a problem, if God exists, then who is worshipping God correctly?

I realized, as you have just expressed, that only one of them can be right, because they contradict each other therefore, they can't all be right at the same time.

I compared the evidence. I believe Christianity has the best. Four documented testimonies by three eyewitnesses and one investigator who interviewed eyewitnesses.

I compared the doctrines. I believe Catholicism has the best. The doctrines make sense and do not contradict.

That is how I came to be convinced that the Catholic Church is the true Church.


Trust me when I say that if I really believed there was a God, I would be more pious than almost anyone I know. That is, after I figured out which God I should worship and which religion I should practice.

Thank you. Now look at me. On every forum that I've been to, I'm considered very passionate and I leave no doubt in anyone's mind that I believe in God. Agree with me or not, I have yet to meet anyone that doubts my faith in God.

I trust that you will be the same when you come to believe in God. And I'm praying that you will. Your search for truth seems sincere.


This is a good question. I guess I most hate the notion that I and most of humanity will suffer for eternity when there was such little evidence for us to go on. If there is a hell, most atheists will not regret any decision they have made, but that god was such a trickster and never gave them any good reason to believe what they were supposed to. It would be such an easy thing to get me to believe. But it doesn't seem forthcoming for me.

Do you ever catch yourself talking to God? When I was atheist, I used to catch myself arguing with Him, telling Him how much I hated Him. I also challenged Him, "if you are there, show yourself!"

I have come to believe that this "prayer", if you can call it that, was answered. Try it. Talk to God and ask Him to show Himself to you. He will. For God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

Sincerely,

De Maria

No. You and I are having a very civil discussion.

I'd like every discussion to be civil. But it's sometimes hard when two people are looking at the same wall and one calls it white and the other blue, and both are convinced their perception of the wall is correct.


Simple. They were disobedient. They had made up their minds to do evil. So God, in His Justice, humbled them in order to give them the opportunity to turn to Him. Then, if they remained obstinately against Him, to protect His People, He eliminated them.

Ok, but they ALL weren't disobedient. Certainly 3 month old babies weren't disobedient. And what do you mean by 'to protect his people'? I thought we were all children of God and therefore 'his' people? This might be my lack of understanding the bible. I know it is said that the Jews are His chosen people. But I thought we were all God's children. This is another thing that never made sense to me.



This was done by men.

Yes, men carried out the act. But almost everyone here agrees about the importance of a blood sacrifice. Sassy says: Without the Blood of Jesus that he shed for our sin, we can not approach God because of our sin. Surely, there had to have been a better way. And not to derail our discussion, but I've always wondered what would have happened if Pontius Pilate had been able to 'wash his hands' of Jesus and let him go? Would humanity be doomed now? I don't think you can have it both ways De Maria. You can't say the blood of Jesus' crucifixion was required AND that man did it in the same breath. Either man did it and Jesus didn't have to die, or Jesus had little to do with our being saved. It can't be both.



No blood was shed here. It was a lesson that God does not want the sacrifice of our children as the Molochs and Baals, the false gods of the pagans of Abrahams did.

Just the same it was pretty mean, don't you think? Not just to Abraham, but what about the kid? If someone held a knife to their kid's throat in 2008 I'm sure (I hope), you'd be among the first to suggest his immediate arrest. Lastly...

It sounds as though you might be saying, it's God's ball and he can play whatever game he wants with it. To some extent I agree with this. I'm not one of those atheists who claim I would spit at the feet of god even if I knew he existed (because to worship such a tyrant would violate my own moral code). The fact is, if this god is real then we are all living in his universe and we can either get with the program (no matter how gruesome we find it), or perish. That seems reasonable to me.

I used to be a strong believer in Buddhism but I began to re-evaluate myself and became less religious. The reason is because I never really experience the reality and my mother keeps pushing the religion down on me; she's like "if you have premarital sex, you're going to hell because it's a crime" or "when you die, you will be judged based on your actions.. if you did a lot of good things, you'll go to heaven and vice versa."

I really don't know if Higher Power exists because I feel like there is no connection between human beings and the Higher Power; take granted for example, the AIDs, malaria, West Nile, rebel fighters, and unfortunate disasters strike all countries in Africa. But, the people believe in a Higher Power and not a lot has happened. Yes, there are miracles when rebel fighters retreated instead of running down on the next village or people with AIDs living a bit longer than expected.

I just don't see how a Higher Power can do this. Not to be blunt, but religion is over-rated. Look at Christianity and take a good evaluation of its history... When one disagrees, it branches off just like Protestants and Catholics.

I still believe there is a Higher Power, but not as strong as I used to.

I'd like every discussion to be civil. But it's sometimes hard when two people are looking at the same wall and one calls it white and the other blue, and both are convinced their perception of the wall is correct.

Agreed.


Ok, but they ALL weren't disobedient. Certainly 3 month old babies weren't disobedient.

True, but 3 month old babies who have died are in heaven.


And what do you mean by 'to protect his people'? I thought we were all children of God and therefore 'his' people?

If you have rejected God, why do you consider yourself His?


This might be my lack of understanding the bible.

Agreed.


I know it is said that the Jews are His chosen people.

It is. God has always selected certain men to teach others about Him. Adam, Seth, the Patriarchs, Moses, Aaron, the Levites, the Prophets, the Apostles, the Church.


But I thought we were all God's children.

We are if we accept Him as our Father. But if we don't, then we are not part of His Family. We remain His creatures, but not His children.


This is another thing that never made sense to me.

No problem.


Yes, men carried out the act. But almost everyone here agrees about the importance of a blood sacrifice. Sassy says: Without the Blood of Jesus that he shed for our sin, we can not approach God because of our sin. Surely, there had to have been a better way.

Whether there is a better way I don't know. I know that this way is very effective.

Simple question. What do you share with your children? Answer, your flesh and blood.

Jesus, sacrificed Himself for us in order to share with us His Flesh and Blood. It is His Flesh and Blood which we eat in the Eucharist. In so doing He signifies and we accept that we are His Family. It is the New Covenant in His Blood.


And not to derail our discussion, but I've always wondered what would have happened if Pontius Pilate had been able to 'wash his hands' of Jesus and let him go? Would humanity be doomed now? I don't think you can have it both ways De Maria.

That depends on whether the Jews would then have accepted Jesus or crucified Him on their own.

If the Jews had accepted Jesus, then I believe the rest of the world would have as well.

But that is simply speculation since it didn't happen that way.


You can't say the blood of Jesus' crucifixion was required AND that man did it in the same breath. Either man did it and Jesus didn't have to die, or Jesus had little to do with our being saved. It can't be both.

I agree with your logic. That is why I don't believe that the Crucifixion was absolutely necessary.

Did I say that Jesus' crucifixion was required? Although many theologians believe it was. It is not Church doctrine however. Therefore we are free to speculate on the matter.

Nor is it Church doctrine that Adam and Eve had to sin. Many theologians believe that as well. But it is not Church doctrine and we are free to speculate either way.


Just the same it was pretty mean, don't you think? Not just to Abraham, but what about the kid? If someone held a knife to their kid's throat in 2008 I'm sure (I hope), you'd be among the first to suggest his immediate arrest. Lastly...

This is where faith comes in.

I, have learned from experience, from observation and from study, that God is Love, God is good and God does everything for our good.

Therefore, although I don't claim to understand why God tested Abraham this way, I know by faith that God did not do it to be mean.

How many times have you heard of someone being arrested for assault as an example? And people who love him say, "there's no way, he isn't capable of such behavior."

That is because, from prior experience they have learned that this person is good and they have faith in that person.

So, although I don't understand why God tested Abraham, I know because of my love for Him that He did it not only for Abraham's own good but for ours.


It sounds as though you might be saying, it's God's ball and he can play whatever game he wants with it. To some extent I agree with this.

To some extent that is true.


I'm not one of those atheists who claim I would spit at the feet of god even if I knew he existed (because to worship such a tyrant would violate my own moral code). The fact is, if this god is real then we are all living in his universe and we can either get with the program (no matter how gruesome we find it), or perish. That seems reasonable to me.

Bingo! Except I don't think God is a tyrant. I believe God is protecting you from a tyrant.

I don't know if you have children, but I do. And I find this the best metaphor for God, He is our Father.

How many times, if you have children or if you remember your childhood, did you resent the good that your parents enforced by tough love. You may not have thought they loved you when they spanked you, but they did and you know it is true now that you've grown up.

Sincerely,

De Maria

True, but 3 month old babies who have died are in heaven.

I hope these exchanges causes some of you guys to think a little bit as well...

You are implying that god created plagues to wipe out the innocent? The same can be said about every person on earth. Why not just destroy all of humanity and then everyone will be at their appropriate destination? It is an inefficient plan to say the least, to create creatures of life only to kill them even before cognizance is attained. This flies in the face of the 'perfectness' you attribute to god. If nothing else, his planning skills leave a lot to be desired.



It is. God has always selected certain men to teach others about Him. Adam, Seth, the Patriarchs, Moses, Aaron, the Levites, the Prophets, the Apostles, the Church.

So He has deceived his chosen people? Or least not provided them with sufficient evidence that Jesus was His Son? You know, some Christians believe His chosen people will burn in hell for all eternity because of this (not sure if you believe that).


Whether there is a better way I don't know. I know that this way is very effective.

By what criteria do you pronounce this tactic as effective? His Son was hideously tortured to death and well over 2/3 of all humanity that has ever lived since, do not even accept Jesus as their Savior. This is effective? Again, serious planning issues.


It is His Flesh and Blood which we eat in the Eucharist. In so doing He signifies and we accept that we are His Family. It is the New Covenant in His Blood.

I'm going to have to ignore this for now. It would take pages upon pages for you to explain how cannibalizing your Savior in the form of a cracker makes any logical sense.



How many times have you heard of someone being arrested for assault as an example? And people who love him say, "there's no way, he isn't capable of such behavior."

That is because, from prior experience they have learned that this person is good and they have faith in that person.

Right, but then we lock him up anyway, don't we? Because it doesn't matter what his loved ones say or think. If he is guilty of the assault, we correctly deem it wrong and punishable!


I don't know if you have children, but I do. And I find this the best metaphor for God, He is our Father.

I'm not sure if you really read what I write or not. If so, you should already know that this metaphor is wasted on me. I have already asserted that I would never shun my children. They could leave me, but I would always welcome them back if they choose. And no matter what they did, I would not sentence them to an eternity of torture and torment. And even if I did... I would commute their sentence in a heartbeat if they showed remorse and learned where they went wrong. No loving parent would accept eternal punishment for their child.

I hope these exchanges causes some of you guys to think a little bit as well...

That is why I engage in these exchanges.


You are implying that god created plagues to wipe out the innocent?

Did I say that? Please quote me.


The same can be said about every person on earth. Why not just destroy all of humanity and then everyone will be at their appropriate destination? It is an inefficient plan to say the least, to create creatures of life only to kill them even before cognizance is attained. This flies in the fact of the 'perfectness' you attribute to god. If nothing else, his planning skills leave a lot to be desired.

Your logic is a bit distorted.

The idea is to give you and everyone else the right to choose. What good would it do do destroy everyone before they chose?


So He has deceived his chosen people? Or least not provided them with sufficient evidence that Jesus was His Son? You know, some Christians believe His chosen people will burn in hell for all eternity because of this (not sure if you believe that).

If you look at history, the majority of Jews have become Christians. The remainder are a remnant.

If they chose not to believe the revelation of God, it was their decision.


By what criteria do you pronounce this tactic as effective? His Son was hideously tortured to death and well over 2/3 of all humanity that has ever lived since, do not even accept Jesus as their Savior. This is effective? Again, serious planning issues.

Consider God to be the ultimate marine. He is looking for a few good men.

Remember God doesn't need us. We need Him. Even if we all choose to go to hell, it is our choice hurting no one but ourself.


I'm going to have to ignore this for now. It would take pages upon pages for you to explain how cannibalizing your Savior in the form of a cracker makes any logical sense.

That is fine. I can tell that your previously amiable discourse is now showing signs of frustration. Apparently you didn't anticipate that anyone had the answers to your questions.


Right, but then we lock him up anyway, don't we? Because it doesn't matter what his loved ones say or think. If he is guilty of the assault, we correctly deem it wrong and punishable!

And that is the difference isn't it. God is not guilty of assault.


I'm not sure if you really read what I write or not. If so, you should already know that this metaphor is wasted on me. I have already asserted that I would never shun my children. They could leave me, but I would always welcome them back if they choose.

The key words here are "if they choose".


And no matter what they did, I would not sentence them to an eternity of torture and torment. And even if I did... I would commute their sentence in a heartbeat if they showed remorse and learned where they went wrong. No loving parent would accept eternal punishment for their child.

A lot of "ifs" there. If they repented. If they show remorse.

That puts you in exactly the same situation as God. Since God will do the same thing. The only people in hell are those who do not repent.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Did I say that? Please quote me.

You didn't say it. You implied it, which is why I said 'you are implying...'

I asked about God's thirst for blood. You responded by saying, Simple. They were disobedient. They had made up their minds to do evil.

I then asked about God wiping out innocents and babies. You acknowledged no problem with this whatsoever, because they go straight to heaven. So which is it? What was the purpose of these plagues and floods that God wrought? Did he mean to wipe out evil doers, or innocents? Or were all these innocents merely the 'collateral damage' of God's wrath? You'd think an omnipotent God would have more accuracy than that.




What good would it do do destroy everyone before they chose?

No offense, but you appear to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. This overtly contradicts what you just got done saying about my logic and about 3 month old babies. Does it not?


Remember God doesn't need us.

Now I've never heard this before. God *needs* us? Clearly, he doesn't need all of us. Just how many does he need? Would a few million do? Or just a couple of very pious people? I know this sounds facetious, but I really don't understand. If he needs us, what did god do for the billions of years before he created man?



I can tell that your previously amiable discourse is now showing signs of frustration.

My discourse is still very amiable. I just don't want to put you through having to answer transubstantiation. First, the process in which a cracker becomes the body of Jesus, and then the whole cannibalism thing. That just sounds like a very messy topic that would utterly derail this thread.


A lot of "ifs" there. If they repented. If they show remorse.

You are still missing my entire point. There is NOTHING, N-O-T-H-I-N-G, that my children could do that would cause me to stand by while they suffered eternally. Nothing.


That puts you in exactly the same situation as God.

Not really. I seem to have more compassion. Unless there's still something I'm not understanding.

Interesting debate. Mostly I've tried to stay out of it. You 2 are doing well enough. But...



Remember God doesn't need us.


If God doesn't need us, why does he demand we worship Him - not request, demand?


-

How does he demand he gave you free will and you exercise that free will by not worshiping him.

How does he demand he gave you free will and you exercise that free will by not worshiping him.

Good answer!

You didn't say it. You implied it, which is why I said 'you are implying...'

Oh, I see.

But the evidence you provided does not show me implying it but you.

Look at it again.


I asked about God's thirst for blood. You responded by saying, Simple. They were disobedient. They had made up their minds to do evil.

True. But if you notice, I said nothing about innocent children.


I then asked about God wiping out innocents and babies.

Lets look at the exact quote:

Ok, but they ALL weren't disobedient. Certainly 3 month old babies weren't disobedient. And what do you mean by 'to protect his people'?

I assumed that you meant that three month old babies were condemned to hell. That is why I responded as you acknowledged below:


You acknowledged no problem with this whatsoever, because they go straight to heaven.

Now lets get back to how you HYPER interpreted my statement:

You are implying that god created plagues to wipe out the innocent?

I don't see any such implication in my statement. I acknowledge that God sent floods and plagues to destroy the guilty. The innocent children who died therein were collateral damage. But they were not punished with the wicked.

I think the problem or misunderstanding is that you are under the false impression that we are made for this life. But we believe we are made for God to live with Him in the next. It is actually a kindness to those children that God took them to Himself before they were corrupted by their parents.

To sum up, I did not imply that God created plagues to wipe out the innocent. That is your misrepresentation of what I said.


So which is it? What was the purpose of these plagues and floods that God wrought? Did he mean to wipe out evil doers, or innocents?

God sent those plagues to destroy evil doers and protect the innocent.


Or were all these innocents merely the 'collateral damage' of God's wrath? You'd think an omnipotent God would have more accuracy than that.

He does, as demonstated by His taking only the first born in the first plague.

Again, the misunderstanding or problem if I may characterize it that way, is that you believe that death is always a punishment. But it isn't. This life is not the end all of our being.


No offense, but you appear to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. This overtly contradicts what you just got done saying about my logic and about 3 month old babies. Does it not?

No. My response is addressed to this comment of yours, "Why not just destroy all of humanity..."

And let me clarify, death is not necessarily destruction. Death and condemnation to hell is destruction. Death and glorification in heaven is victory.


Now I've never heard this before. God *needs* us? Clearly, he doesn't need all of us. Just how many does he need? Would a few million do? Or just a couple of very pious people? I know this sounds facetious, but I really don't understand. If he needs us, what did god do for the billions of years before he created man?

Clearly you misread what I said. Look at it again, I said God doesn't need us. Since this part of your statement was based on a misreading of my words, I'll ignore it.


My discourse is still very amiable.

Good.


I just don't want to put you through having to answer transubstantiation. First, the process in which a cracker becomes the body of Jesus, and then the whole cannibalism thing. That just sounds like a very messy topic that would utterly derail this thread.

Perhaps, but since you keep talking about something you said you don't want to talk about and in the process you malign it, I feel pressed to say a few words.

As I said before, I was an atheist. And like you, when I discovered that God existed, I did my best to be the most devout believer that I could be.

As I searched and compared doctrines, I came slowly to be convinced by Catholic Truth. The last hurdle for me was precisely the Eucharist.

So, I said to myself, "hey, you are convinced that the Church is right about EVERYTHING else. Why do you think they are wrong about this?"

So I took a step in faith. Many years later, I learned that St. Augustine was right. He said, "Believe that you may understand."


You are still missing my entire point. There is NOTHING, N-O-T-H-I-N-G, that my children could do that would cause me to stand by while they suffered eternally. Nothing.

And you are missing mine. If a person chooses to be unhappy, there is nothing, N-O-T-H-I-N-G, you can do about it. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Not really. I seem to have more compassion. Unless there's still something I'm not understanding.

I believe there is. See my last statement.

Sincerely,

De Maria

How does he demand he gave you free will and you exercise that free will by not worshiping him.
Yeah... but if you use that free will incorrectly, there is "eternal fire and burning brimstone" awaiting you.

But god loves you...

:D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D

·

Yep you make the free will choice to pick the wrong door.

Yeah ... but if you use that free will incorrectly, there is "eternal fire and burning brimstone" awaiting you.

But god loves you ....

:D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D

·


God does love us Creed, and yes, it we deny him, turn our back on Him, betray Him,
Then we have chosen not to accept His love or be his children.

Correct you are.

Yep you make the free will choice to pick the wrong door.
That is what you BELIEVE !

:D :D :D :D :D

·

God does love us Creed, and yes, it we deny him, turn our back on Him, betray Him, then we have chosen not to accept His love or be his children. Correct you are.
The difference is that you believe these religious claims, and I don't...

:D

·

Yes that is Allheart and my 'religious beliefs' ON the religious discussion board where we discuss our religious beliefs :D:rolleyes:

God does love us Creed, and yes, it we deny him, turn our back on Him, betray Him,
then we have chosen not to accept His love or be his children.

Correct you are.

I think almost anyone can understand what you're saying Allheart and your intentions are undoubtedly good. But the problem is twofold:

1. Non-Christians are not denying or turning their back on Him. They simply don't know He exists. Either that, or they don't know that the God you believe in is the right God to worship.

2. Allowing people to roast, choke, suffer, and cry in agony for all of eternity is not something most would attribute to a compassionate/loving person or being.

From your posts, I have no doubt you are a kind and wonderful person. It's just that through an incredible (and no doubt unconscious) feat of mental gymnastics, you have come to accept such barbaric fates for your fellow humans with a smile on your face. If only you could look at it objectively from outside your faith.

Our faith is that God showed us his love and how to love with his love.
We can do not do the mental gymnastics of why this and why that because we see God working in our life and in our heart and we can not answer for things like murderers or people who claim they persecute others in God's name or anything like that. We know what is real to us in our belief