Hi,
What is the typical distance of a toilet tank from the wall? Our new one is 1 1/2" and that seems too far.
Do you have to move the flange to move the toilet tank closer to the wall?

Our bathroom is very small.

Thanks.
Natalie

Hi Natalie,
1 1/2" is a little too much for a tank to set vout from the wall. 1/4 / 3/8ths average with 1/2" the limit. You have two options here. 1) Pull the toilet and install a 1" offset closet flange, **or** 2) pull the tank and cut a 2 X for a tad less then the width of the tank, attach it to the wall near the top of the tank and paint it the same color as your walls.
The 2 X 4 will act as a bumper and stay out of sight. Your choice. Good luck, Tom

Thanks for the quick answer.

I just discovered a new problem. Because the toilet is not installed close enough to the wall, there is not 21" between the end of the toilet and the wall in front of the toilet. (There is only 20". This is a very small bathroom.)

We have not had the final inspection yet and the building inspector may force us to move the toilet back closer to the wall.

Will you first suggestion work to move the toilet an 1" closer to the wall?

Natalie

Natalie, sounds like you are close to your inspection so why mot wait and see what the inspector has to say. They frequently offer the best suggestions on a fix since they know what they will approve and not approve. Tom gave you some good options, I like the offset flnange the best. Who installed you toilet and darin pipe, if a plumber did it you may get a free fix since they must be within code. By the way since things are tight, did you know the code requires 15" from the center of the bowel to any side wall or shower enclosure? The tank need to be fairly close to the wall so if someone leans back the tank can flex a hair and then bump into the wall before the china shatters.

Thanks. Yes, we are going to wait until inspection. A plumber did install the drain pipe but that plumber was fired before the toilet was installed.

We are 15" from the wall.

Natalie

Who fired the plumber, you or a general contractor. Fired or not he still has liability for non-code work. The offset falnge will require some floor cutting so tile and/or a concrete floor would be an issue, but everything is fixable.

I fired the plumber. We are deducting several things already for the amount he is owed and this will be another one if we have to change it.

Fortunately, this is not concrete -- although it would involve tile work. I don't think the inspector will let this one go by because there is a heater on the wall in front of the toilet and I think he will be sensitive about the distance.

I am hoping we could use an off-set flange (if that is the right name) and just reset the toilet. That may move it back enough.

Thanks.
Natalie

You got it correct, offset flange Installing An Offset Toilet Flange - Drain Plumbing, Soil Pipe (http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/bath/projects/remod_w1/toilet/new_1/flange_offset.htm) These guys have saved a lot of projects.

I think you should have fired the carpenter who framed the floor. It has been standard for years to run a joist 16" from the face of the wall behind the toilet. The plumber then straps the bin to the joist with a 2x spacer block positioning the bin at 11" from the face of the wall.

It's pretty important to move the toilet back where it belongs. When you let something slide during construction, it has a tendency to haunt you. I don't think there is any substitute for doing the work correctly and enjoying the use of it for many years.

A wall heater in the bath always concerns me. Can you use a ceiling heater instead ? Several years ago, one of my kids got burned pretty good by a bathroom wall heater. I replaced them with combination fan/heater/light kit.

Good luck with it.

The floor was existing -- the contractor didn't change it. It was new plumbing for a new bathroom in existing space.

That concerns me what you said about in wall heaters. Did your grandchild get burned by falling against it?

Natalie

Not a grandchild. One of my kids. Several years ago, a in home we had, there were small electric heaters in the wall near the floor in both bathrooms. The metal grills got very hot, and one of my kids (they were little) bumped into one. I don't recall if I ran a new circuit through the attic, or rerouted the existing heater circuit, but I remember I used a combination fixture fin the ceiling for both bathrooms.

Sorry for the comment about the framing. The plumber may have set the bin as close to the wall as the framing would allow. An Offset toilet ring would be my suggestion also, even if the flooring needs to be notched slightly to accommodate it.

Adding a new circuit might not be a difficult job, but would depend on the size of your service, how much access you have to run the cable, etc. If the wall heater is on a dedicated circuit, you may be able to fish a jumper cable from it's location to a box in the ceiling.

Good luck, and I know you will enjoy having another bath in the house.

If you are building to code that walol heater is going to be yanked per the inspectors report. You can not longer have these heaters but he may grandfather you. I kind of doubt it since you are doing pretty much a total remodel and will be required to be up to code. You can ask him in adavcance or just wait for his report, either way I think he'll tell you it needs to go.

We are building to Code or at least that is what I thought they were doing. The heater is a cadet in-wall fan heater (Com-pak bath). We have 2 new bathrooms -- both have these heaters.
In one bathroom, the heater is on a way 3 feet across from a vanity.
But in the other bathroom -- the one with the toilet problem, the heater is on the wall across from the toilet and is only 20" from end of toilet.

Is the heater a Code violation because the heater is too close to the front of the toilet or are these types of heaters not allowed?
Natalie

The bathroom is on the second floor and the ceiling is still open down below. I just looked and there were no restrictions on the plumber roughing the toilet in back where it should be. The joists run parallel to the toilet and (other than a mismeasurement) there is nothing that kept him from roughing it correctly.

Natalie

The bathroom is on the second floor and the ceiling is still open down below. I just looked and there were no restrictions on the plumber roughing the toilet in back where it should be. The joists run parallel to the toilet and (other than a mismeasurement) there is nothing that kept him from roughing it correctly.

Natalie
If you can't get the original plumber back then have the builder get someone to move the toilet back. Since the ceiling's open I would pass om the offset flange amd move the closet bend and flange back to where it belongs. Good luck, Tom

Thanks. I would prefer that it be done right.

One more question. There are 2 bathrooms where the toilet rough-in was wrong -- one with the code violation that we have been talking about and another new bathroom next to it. In the second bathroom, the toilet rough-in is wrong but there is no code violation -- just a toilet too far from the wall. Would you move the second toilet also -- or just leave it? The access is still open down below but it would mean tearing up the tile, etc.

Natalie

Thanks. I would prefer that it be done right.

One more question. There are 2 bathrooms where the toilet rough-in was wrong -- one with the code violation that we have been talking about and another new bathroom next to it. In the second bathroom, the toilet rough-in is wrong but there is no code violation -- just a toilet too far from the wall. Would you move the second toilet also -- or just leave it? The access is still open down below but it would mean tearing up the tile, etc.

Natalie
If the second toilet is as far from the wall as the first one the I would definably get it moved at the same time. Why would any tile be exposed? You're Just moving the flange back a inch or so. The tile would have to come out to move the flange but the bowl should cover that after it's been reset.

Thanks. I would prefer that it be done right.

One more question. There are 2 bathrooms where the toilet rough-in was wrong -- one with the code violation that we have been talking about and another new bathroom next to it. In the second bathroom, the toilet rough-in is wrong but there is no code violation -- just a toilet too far from the wall. Would you move the second toilet also -- or just leave it? The access is still open down below but it would mean tearing up the tile, etc.

Natalie

Before going much further with this, I would first establish that the Plumber did in fact miss the mark on his rough-in. There are several models of toilets that will sit a good 1-1/2 from the wall on a 12" rough-in.

Kohler's Wellworth, American Standard's Cadet series, most Caroma's and Toto's Drake, just to name a few.

Take a tape measure and measure from the wall to the center of the bolts holding the toilet down to the floor -- If the measurement exceeds 12", then your Plumber missed the mark -- If the measurement is 12", then your Plumber roughed it in correctly.

The toilet is a Kohler Pinoir. Measuring to the center of the bolt on the toilet, it is only a little over 12". Based on the rough-in information from Kohler, the toilet tank should be only 3/4" from the wall. So if the measure to the center of the bolt is 12", why is the toilet tank a little over 1 1/2" from the wall?

On the Kohler rough-in information, it looks like the 12" measurement is made past the bolt. Is the 12" always measured to the bolt?

Natalie

The toilet is a Kohler Pinoir. Measuring to the center of the bolt on the toilet, it is only a little over 12". Based on the rough-in information from Kohler, the toilet tank should be only 3/4" from the wall. So if the measure to the center of the bolt is 12", why is the toilet tank a little over 1 1/2" from the wall?

According to Kohler's rough-in field guide, all 4 W/C's in the Pinoir line will be a minimum of 1" off the wall when installed onto a 12" rough-in.


On the Kohler rough-in information, it looks like the 12" measurement is made past the bolt. Is the 12" always measured to the bolt?

The closet flange should be roughed-in a minimum of 12" to center from the face of the finished wall -- The closet bolts should then be installed in the very center of the flange.

My Kohler Pinoir round front toilet K-3483 is smaller than the diagram that was posted and the distance from the wall on the rough-in diagram is 3/4" -- not 1" as shown for the larger toilet.

I bought the small toilet because it was going to be a tight fit. With a 3/4" distance between the wall and the toilet tank, it meets code. With a 1 1/2" distance between the wall and the toilet tank, it doesn't.

The toilet was on site, the wall was right there. It would be real easy to see that if the toilet is set out too far, there will not be 21" inches to the wall. Isn't the plumber responsible for following the instructions and installing the toilet 3/4" from the wall to meet code requirement?

Natalie

My Kohler Pinoir round front toilet K-3483 is smaller than the diagram that was posted and the distance from the wall on the rough-in diagram is 3/4" -- not 1" as shown for the larger toilet.

Right you are, I had to dig a bit deeper to find the R/I specs for the round front.


I bought the small toilet because it was going to be a tight fit. With a 3/4" distance between the wall and the toilet tank, it meets code. With a 1 1/2" distance between the wall and the toilet tank, it doesn't.

If it were me, I'd phone in for the final inspection and let the Inspector make the call; He/She may decide to let it go and sign you off.

However, the location of the in-wall Cadet heater will likely be a mitigating factor in how the Inspector makes His or Her decision.


The toilet was on site, the wall was right there. It would be real easy to see that if the toilet is set out too far, there will not be 21" inches to the wall. Isn't the plumber responsible for following the instructions and installing the toilet 3/4" from the wall to meet code requirement?

Few Plumbers take the time to mock up or dry set a plumbing fixture, nor are they specifically required to do so -- As for the code requirement, it is the responsibility of the Building/Framing permit holder to ensure that all spaces meet minimum spatial requirements.

BTW, I'm not yet convinced your Plumber roughed things in correctly.

A wax gasket is cheap -- Pull the toilet and make certain the closet flange was installed per Kohler's specifications, also, check to see if he roughed the water supply in correctly.

The water supply stub-out should be 5-1/8" left of the center of the closet flange and 8" to center above the finished floor.

Thanks. I'll be gone for 2 weeks so we won't have the inspection until after I get back. I think you are probably right that because of the placement of the heater, the inspector will notice and not let it slide.

I think it was my job to find a small enough toilet and the plumber's job to install it properly. Either the plumber didn't do a 12" rough in or Kohler is wrong that with a 12" rough-in, the toilet tank is 3/4 " from the wall.

I think that is a good idea to pull the toilet and look at it. The water supply stub-out is 5" off the finished floor and about 6 inches from the center of the toilet -- if I understood what you were saying. Is that bad?

Natalie

Hey Natalie,
The water supply stub-out is 5" off the finished floor and about 6 inches from the center of the toilet -- if I understood what you were saying. Is that bad?
That's about where we put ours with the closet flange 11 1/2" off a finished wall to the center of the flange. Measure the wall to your bolts and take into consideration the molding that runs around the floor line. What do you come up with?

From the finished wall to the center of the bolt it is 12 1/8"

We have two toilets that were just installed (same toilet) and the water supply stub out for the other one is at 7" off the finished floor and 5 1/8" from center. From the finished wall to the center of the bolt it is 12" for that one.

For both of them, there is 1 1/2" between the wall and the tank.

Kohler instructions say the water supply stub out shoul be 8" off the floor -- does it matter if the stub out for the one toilet is only 5"?

Natalie

Kohler instructions say the water supply stub out shoul be 8" off the floor -- does it matter if the stub out for the one toilet is only 5"?
Not really. We made ours 6" up and 6" over. This was 20 years ago when I was out in the field. We gave out supply tubes a little extra length because we had chrome over 1/4" soft copper to bend and fit to the tank opening. Now days they have flexible supplies that install much easier.
From the finished wall to the center of the bolt it is 12 1/8" With the molding that should put you 12 1/2" fron the finished wall. A tad over what we do our roughs at. Cheers, I'm closing shop and kicking back! Tom

Thanks for all of the posts.

I think the plumber's apprentice (who had no supervision) ignored the size of the tank and the manufacturer rough-in information and that is why the tank is 1 1/2" from the wall and why we have the code violation.

Natalie

It certainly doesn't look right to have toilet tank sitting 1 1/2" away from the wall. Yes, old houses have toilets far away from the wall. They used to have larger tanks and overall designs called for more space. If you install todays' toilets, you will have that space behind the tank.

These days, all toilets are roughed-in 12" on center, measured from framing to the center of your toilet ring. That way, toilet tank will sit about 1/4" inch away from the wall. With concrete slab floors, you will have to break concrete around the pipe, get low enough to cut it, and than to install off-set ring. With framed floors you will have to do the same - but with less efforts.

If your plumber set the rough-in rings himself, than he didn't pay too much attention to his measurements.

As far as the water supply valve location goes: unless you have Kohler angle stop (supply valve) and rigid supply line - and require plumbed look of your water supply entering your fill valve below the tank - you don't have to worry about its position too much. With flexible lines we use today, the valve doesn't have to be in one specific place - as long as it is below the tank, above the baseboard and on the proper side of the toilet.

But if all toilets are roughed in at 12", how is the toilet tank taken into account? The Kohler Pinoir has a smaller tank and it seems like that has to be taken into account.

How are my toilets both 12" inches from the finished wall to the bolt and yet there is 1 1/2" between the tank and the wall. Something isn't right.

Natalie

I hope we talk about the same toilet. Here is copy of technical description for Kohler Pinoir (K-3485) toilet. It lists rough in at 12" . Please note that "rough-in" dimension is meant to be measured from the framing of your wall - not from the finished wall + the baseboard.

Kohler Pinoir K-3485 Comfort Height Elongated Toilet with Left-hand Trip Lever,

"... Overview:
Featuring the height of a standard chair for comfort, the Pinoir Comfort Height toilet has straightforward box-band lines and double-ridge detailing that highlight its clean design. This model includes the Ingenium flushing system which delivers complete 3.5-gallon performance in a 1.6-gallon package, an elongated bowl design, a left-hand Polished Chrome trip lever, and a 12 Inch rough-in installation. Coordinate the toilet with the other products in the Pinoir Ensemble to unify your bath or powder room decor...."

Thanks. That is the problem. My toilets measure a little over 12" from the finished wall to the bolts, which means that the rough-in was about 12 3/4" -- which explains why the toilet tank is 1 1/2" from the wall instead of 3/4".

Natalie

I hope we talk about the same toilet. Here is copy of technical description for Kohler Pinoir (K-3485) toilet. It lists rough in at 12" . Please note that "rough-in" dimension is meant to be measured from the framing of your wall - not from the finished wall + the baseboard.

That is incorrect, Milo.

Rough-in specs for a W/C are *always* the distance from the face of the finished wall to the center of the closet flange.

There are far too many variables involved in wall coverings and finishes for a rough framing distance to be called out.

Had we set the closet flange per your interpretation on a job we just wrapped up a few months back, where the wall covering was 3/4" OSB for sheer, two layers of 5/8" sheetrock for fireproofing, 1/4" of tilebacker board, 3/8" of thinset and 3/4" slab marble, the closet flange would have netted 8-5/8" from center of flange to finished wall surface.

Rough-in specs for a W/C are *always* the distance from the face of the finished wall to the center of the closet flange
I've got a question for you growler. You're out there roughing in a slab. You establish your walls put your strings out. The rough calls for a bathroom on the slab. No finished wall here. Just dirt and the strings that you laid out.
How far off the strings do you center the closet bend? Just curious Steve. I've never know anything to be absolute in plumbing except: $hit won't flow uphill, cold water's on the right, paydays on Friday, the boss's a sonofa and never bite your nails after you snake out a sewer. Now those are my absolutes. Have they changed so much in the twenty years since I've retired? Cheers an giggles, Tom

How does the plumber know what the finished wall is going to be? Whether it is just sheetrock or tile or something else?

I am guessing that the answer is that the plumber asks -- but our plumber never asked, so maybe that is our problem. We just have sheetrock.

Natalie

How does the plumber know what the finished wall is going to be? whether it is just sheetrock or tile or something else?

I am guessing that the answer is that the plumber asks -- but our plumber never asked, so maybe that is our problem. We just have sheetrock.

Natalie
Hey Natalie,
When we break ground for a rough in we have a set of plans with the fixture layout. That's it. The builder's not around to ask. We figure 12" off the string will give us 11 1/2 inches from the finished wall. Cheers, Tom

I've got a question for you growler. You're out there roughing in a slab. You establish your walls put your strings out. The rough calls for a bathroom on the slab. No finished wall here. Just dirt and the strings that you laid out.
How far off the strings do you center the closet bend? Just curious Steve. I've never know anything to be absolute in plumbing except: $hit won't flow uphill, cold water's on the right, paydays on Friday, the boss's a sonofa and never bite your nails after you snake out a sewer. Now those are my absolutes. Have they changed so much in the twenty years since I've retired? Cheers an giggles, Tom

Well, for starters, I don't lay the strings out, I leave that to the builder or the framing crew -- And if there is any indecision in how the walls will lay out, I pull off the job until a firm decision has been made.

I also use 4x3 closet bends for groundwork, which allow me to scoot the closet bolts forward or backward a good 3/4" should the need arise.

Quoted from : iamgrowler
That is incorrect, Milo. Rough-in specs for a W/C are *always* the distance from the face of the finished wall to the center of the closet flange.
There are far too many variables involved in wall coverings and finishes for a rough framing distance to be called out.

I have to disagree with you. From my experience, 99.9 % of all toilets are roughed-in at 12" at center - and from the rough framing. Period. At least that's how it used to be in the last 32 years I have been running and laying out my jobs. ( I personally lay-out over 500 bathrooms a year ). Even Unified Plumbing Code book lists toilet installation at 12" rough-in on center. To support my claim, in one of the previous commentaries, I have cut 'n' pasted description directly from Kohler, a company that manufactures Kohler Pinoir toilet, the toilet in question. They also list their toilets as 12" on center.

Now, if you rough-in toilet at 12" on center, the actual space you need is about 10 3/4"" to fit toilet and tank in. With 1/2" drywall, you have about 3/4 inch of space to install wall tile. So in many cases, plumbers get away with not checking blueprints for these special situations. Also, toilet outlet is 2" in diameter. Toilet ring is 3" of 4" in diameter. So the toilet bolts can be moved forward additional 1/2" to 3/4" to compensate for unforseen situations - like not noticing sheer wall on the interior.

Now, I have to agree with you that some special situations do exist, like sheer-walls on the interior and tile behind the toilet - but don't ask me when was the last time I run into this situation. I would not remember that... :-)

Growler, I got to agree with Milo on this. 12" off the string gives ya about 11 1/2" off a finished wall.
Well, for starters, I don't lay the strings out, I leave that to the builder or the framing crew --
As the "plumber in charge" you don't establish your own walls on a rough in? What happens when they miss a wall? Do you take the heat for not doing it yourself? I don't know how it goes down in Seattle but in Florida when we rough in a single family dwelling we're given a set of plans that we then lay out our drainage and pull our material. We hop in our truck and proced to the job site where we are greeted by a foundation with two or three course of blocks holding back the fill dirt and that's all. No builder waiting to lay out the job for us since we're expected to be experienced enough to do it ourselves. Since you don't lay out the job yourself do you dig the trenches yourself or is that done for you also. Pretty soft for you guys out west. Missed a wall and put the potty in the living room? Hey! Ain't my fault! I didn't put the strings down.
It's Ok Steve! Just feeling frisky this AM and having a bit of fun. But seriously, you really don't establish your own walls? Regards, Tom

Growler, I have never heard of anyone convincing a framing company to lay out field lines for the plumber... ever! And who would want them, too..? I wouldn't trust such an important job to anyone but myself... why I am the plumber... not them? If you were told later that you missed every wall in the building...who is legally responsible...you or the framing crew you suckered into doing it?? Nope... thinking I'd rather trust me with that then them!

However, to jump in on this argument over rough in toilet numbers I do have to agree that all specification sheets... JUST LIKE THE ONE YOU POSTED... clearly show that a toilet rough is measured from the finish wall!

Just look at the picture you posted as an example and we can all see that you have 1" of space from finished wall to the back of the toilet...

With all due respect to everyone's experience here... Is anyone here telling me that the picture is suggesting that that is the ROUGH FRAMED WALL in that picture..? Just because we discuss a 12" rough in does not mean it is from the rough frame... means it is the rough in number to install the toilet from the finish wall. Further, when we rough in a lavatory drain at 18" to center off the floor... is it from the rough floor.. or the finish floor..? How about the water pipe... from the rough floor.. or from the finish floor..?

And just to be super creepy I called 18004KOHLER and confirmed with technical department that all measurements in these spec. sheets are from the FINISHED wall.... you guys had me questioning myself though... I swear!

So Natalie...if you are at 12 and 1/8" from the finish wall to the center of the toilet flange and you have 1.5" of space between finish wall and tank then you need to have a plumber come in and reset the toilet BACK toward the wall!! There should be enough room in the flange to slide the unit back to within 1" maximium!

Let me know what you think!!

And one last note... different places teach people differently... however, these spec. sheets are there so we can all agree on one thing... 12" rough in is always from the finish wall! If you choose to rough your toilets tighter than spec. number so be it (by the way.. I rough tighter myself... ;) )! I just wanted to point out that that spec. sheet is an absolute everywhere!! And for the sake of others reading this in the future we really should ALL be able to agree to that!

Thanks for reading all.

MARK

You guys can go by the book but I'm a old timey plumber , I go by results.
Natalie asked a good question.
How does the plumber know what the finished wall is going to be? Whether it is just sheetrock or tile or something else If I factered in the average finished dry wall it would work out to 12 5/8ths" off the string which would put the tank out 1 1/8th" off the wall. At 11 1/2 " off the finished wall my tanks set a average of 1/2" or less off the wall and that's been good enough in my area. We've put in houdreds of toilets with nary a complaint about the distance the tank set from the wall, and that's with a tile or drywall situation. So, Mark and Steve You're "book correct", but I bet that doesn't change Milos mesures and I know for a fact that our rough in plumbers still go 12" off the string.
Ya'all have a good one. Tom

I got to tell you Tom... closer is better for sure... so no disagreement there! As I said, I actually pipe these as you do... ;)

I just wanted Natalie to know that technically speaking... her plumber has only messed up by 1/8" by her measure...and like I said..I think all this can be resolved by sliding toilet back some.

I just did not want her yelling at someone just to find out that the spec. sheet is in fact 12" from finish wall and the plumber installed the rough plumbing fine... but may need to re-install the toilet to fix this!

Thanks Tom...

Mark

Growler, I have never heard of anyone convincing a framing company to lay out field lines for the plumber....ever!! And who would want them, too...?? I wouldn't trust such an important job to anyone but myself....why I am the plumber...not them?? If you were told later that you missed every wall in the building...who is legally responsible...you or the framing crew you suckered into doing it?? Nope...thinking I'd rather trust me with that then them!!

I suspect I deal with a different caliber of framing contractors than you, Mark.

We are a small shop who works with a limited number of GC's and Builders, five, to be exact.

We have a twenty year history with three of them, and a fifteen year history with the other two, so a lack of confidence in crews is usually confined to new hires, who are usually broken in by us and the other long term Subs within a week or so.

As for SOG homes, they represent less than 1% of the homes built in the PNW (whereas slab on grade homes represent upwards of 90% of the homes built in the rest of the country), so it's a rare occurrence when we have to deal with string lines without already poured footings or foundation walls to pull measurements from.

Y'know, we're in kind of a niche market here (which is why I made the decision to curtail my posting to this forum), no tract homes, developments or spec homes, so we can afford to pass the responsibility of laying out walls to those who will be actually building the walls.

Well, her you have it, NatalieBlueEyes... everybody does it "his" way and everybody believes "his" way is the right way ! And your toilet still remains 1 1/2" away from the wall... Isn't life beautiful? So, maybe you should put a big plant on the toilet bowl. That may cover it up ! :-D

Well, her you have it, NatalieBlueEyes......everybody does it "his" way and everybody believes "his" way is the right way ! And your toilet still remains 1 1/2" away from the wall.... Isn't life beautiful ?! So, maybe you should put a big plant on the toilet bowl. That may cover it up ! :-D

*smacks forehead*

Jeeze, Milo, I'd forgotten all about you.

Anyhow -- The next time you're around an uncrated, assembled WC, grab a two foot level and a tape measure, and then measure from the back of the tank to the center of the stools bolt holes.

Mark that measurement down in a log book and then do the same for the next ten or twelve other brands of WC's you encounter in the next 32 years.

If you aren't brought around to mine, Marks and the WC manufacturers way of thinking by number five or six, then I reckon there is little hope for you.

Just my two pence.

If you aren't brought around to mine, Marks and the WC manufacturers way of thinking by number five or six, then I reckon there is little hope for you.
Growler,
Then we are all lost down here because every plumber I know roughs a toilet in at 12" off the string. And did you read the part where Mark says he measures his rough a little short? Jeeze Growler! Bend a little! Just because it's recomended doesn't mean it's written in stone. And just because code directs you to do something a certain way doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to do it. Sometimes ya gotta think outside the box and tapdance around code. I think it's called "flexibility". Regards, Tom

Growler,
Then we are all lost down here because every plumber I know roughs a toilet in at 12" off the string. And did you read the part where Mark says he measures his rough a little short? Jeeze Growler! Bend a little! Just because it's recomended doesn't mean it's written in stone. And just because code directs you to do something a certain way doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to do it. Sometimes ya gotta think outside the box and tapdance around code. I think it's called "flexibility". Regards, Tom

Adhering to code and the manufacturers specifications is what keeps me from being sued by disgruntled homeowners, Tom.

It also keeps me from having my license suspended or revoked or from having my insurance company drop me.

I'm not sure what the climate is down South -- But Insurers who offer coverage to Contractors up here are dropping Contractors left and right for even the smallest infraction.

Again, I'm not sure what it's like down there, but losing your insurance for cause up here means you're pretty much blackballed by the other insurance companies, which means you go work for someone else or find another line of work.

Wow, you guys can have a spirited conversation. I wish I understood it all.

I don't want to yell at the wrong plumber -- because I had one plumber that did the rough-in and one that installed the toilet (long story about why two different plumbers) and I have a toilet that is 1 1/2" inches from the wall and less than 21" clearance in front of it. (Kohler specs say that it should be 3/4" from wall.) Plus the big gap behind the toilet looks stupid.

I measure 12 1/8" inches to the bolt from the finished wall (not including the floor trim). And I have two toilets that are installed this way.

When the toilet was installed, could the plumber have installed the toilet closer to the wall by just "scooting it back" or did it have to be installed that far from the wall because of the rough-in? Can I get a plumber to just pull the toilet and move it back without tearing up some of the floor? Is it an easy fix or a big pain in the butt?

Natalie

BTW, I wish one of you had installed my toilets because I would be very happy with toilets that are just 1/2" from wall or even 3/4" from the wall.

It would solve my problems.

Natalie

Natalie:

You asked, "When the toilet was installed, could the plumber have installed the toilet closer to the wall by just "scooting it back" or did it have to be installed that far from the wall b/c of the rough-in? Can I get a plumber to just pull the toilet and move it back without tearing up some of the floor? Is it an easy fix or a big pain in the butt?"

Answer:

Since you measured the toilet bolts at 12 1/8" to center of bolt I would recommend that you get a plumber in to lift the toilet, then set new bolts at the center of the flange and see what the TRUE measure is to center of flange from FINISHED WALL.

If at 12" or 12 1/8" then have the plumber reinstall the toilet being sure to "SCOOT" the toilet back just slightly to minimize the distance from the tank to the wall... ;)

When he is finished measure again and see what you have.

Hoping that finally resolves this for you!! It should!!

Also... be sure the plumber levels the toilet tank from back to front as an unlevel tank can easily pull the tank away from the wall a good 1/4" to 1/2" if installed wrong (use a 9" torpedo level to check the tank WITHOUT the lid in place).

Then let us know how this goes...

Thanks... MARK

PS: Hey everyone...here's what Iamgrowler looked like BEFORE a bath and a shave!! You hippie you!!... :D

PS: Hey everyone...here's what Iamgrowler looked like BEFORE a bath and a shave!! You hippie you!!...:D

Yeah...

That's when I decided to stop mixing posting with drinking.

Wow, you guys can have a spirited conversation. I wish I understood it all.

I don't want to yell at the wrong plumber -- because I had one plumber that did the rough-in and one that installed the toilet (long story about why two different plumbers) and I have a toilet that is 1 1/2" inches from the wall and less than 21" clearance in front of it. (Kohler specs say that it should be 3/4" from wall.) Plus the big gap behind the toilet looks stupid.

I measure 12 1/8" inches to the bolt from the finished wall (not including the floor trim). And I have two toilets that are installed this way.

When the toilet was installed, could the plumber have installed the toilet closer to the wall by just "scooting it back" or did it have to be installed that far from the wall b/c of the rough-in? Can I get a plumber to just pull the toilet and move it back without tearing up some of the floor? Is it an easy fix or a big pain in the butt?

Natalie

The toilet has a 2" discharge and the flange is likely 3", so you could probably get away with scooting it back a good 5/8" to 3/4" without adversely affecting how it flushes.

Just to make sure I understand, the plumber can take up the toilet and "scoot" it back 5/8 to 3/4" without changing the hole in the bathroom floor (the rough-in) and he just changes the bolts?
Natalie

That is what we hope for you Natalie!

As you said, have him scoot it back. Lift the toilet, install the bolts... MEASURE/confirm measure from flange to finish wall... and then set the toilet again. Make sure he installs a new wax gasket as well.

During new install, have him scoot the toilet back toward wall to minimize that distance (Growler also suggested this) and be sure to level the tank as mentioned at my last post.

We hope this will fix all of this for you...WITHOUT making a big deal about it and having to move pipes/flanges.

Let us know how it turns out!

Thanks.. MARK

Thanks everyone.
I'll let you know what happens.
Natalie

One more point: Kohler Pinoir toilet bowl is made in 3 different rough-ins: 10-12-14" on center. Exchange your present bowl for 14" rough-in. It should absorb the gap.

( For those who still care: All this situation with Natalie's "gap" was created by Kohler specifying all of its toilets in their spec-book as 12" rough-in on center. Indeed, it is measured from the finished wall and accounts for 1" gap bet. Tank and the wall. From the esthetic's point-of-view" it produces undesirable result.

I stopped by Kohler showroom yesterday with level in one hand and tape in the other. I measured all Kohler toilets on display. The dimensions between bolts and tank varied from 9" to 10 3/4". None of them was 12". The salesman was very interested in what I am doing. So I presented him with our problem. He pulled out Kohler Catalog, and we selected one sample toilet (Kohler Memoir) and compared book specs info with Memoir toilet model present on display. (In the showroom, toilet tank was nicely displayed in mock-up bathroom and was flash with the wall). We measured. The actual distance was 10 3/4" from finished wall on center of the bolts. This findings repeated on Cimmaron and Wellworth Light toilets present on display. Would these toilets be installed as Kohler suggests - than there would be a large gap.

Good question, good discussion, good answers, good thread ! )

Just to support my previous response with visual. Kohler lists 12" rough-in. Actual distance is 10 1/4".

We always rough in at 12" on center from rough framing. We string walls ourselves. This pic was taken today. It is a bathroom addition project.

Milo...

Look at your top picture really carefully and then you tell me what is wrong with it? You have just CONFIRMED what me and Iamgrowler are talking about!!

Actually, no, let me tell you what is wrong..ok?

You have measured this toilet from the face of your level which is in front of finish baseboard... *UNBELIEVABLE*

So let's see... 10.25 inches plus 1" for width of level, plus 5/8" for the wood baseboard equals... *drum roll please*... 11.875 inches (leaving 1/2" behind the tank if I see that picture as correctly as I am sure I do actually makes this a perfect 12" rough with 7/8" behind the toilet tank! ). Check out imgrowler's post #20....you have just proved his specification sheet is EXACTLY dead on!!

And the other picture below showing a tape measure over the toilet pipe....MILO, you couldn't be more insulting if you tried. This picture only proves that you rough in your toilets contrary to engineered specifications...??? I would not brag about that!

I have nothing else to say on this... Thank you for driving my point home!

*UNBELIEVABLE*

MARK

Milo...

Look at your top picture really carefully and then you tell me what is wrong with it?? You have just CONFIRMED what me and Iamgrowler are talking about!!!

Actually, no, let me tell you what is wrong..ok??

You have measured this toilet from the face of your level which is in front of finish baseboard....*UNBELIEVABLE*

So let's see....10.25 inches plus 1" for width of level, plus 5/8" for the wood baseboard equals...*drum roll please*....11.875 inches (leaving 1/2" behind the tank if I see that picture as correctly as I am sure I do actually makes this a perfect 12" rough with 7/8" behind the toilet tank!!).

MARK

*rolls eyes*

You caught that to, eh?

Milo...

Look at your top picture really carefully and then you tell me what is wrong with it?? You have just CONFIRMED what me and Iamgrowler are talking about!!!

Actually, no, let me tell you what is wrong..ok??

You have measured this toilet from the face of your level which is in front of finish baseboard....*UNBELIEVABLE*

So let's see....10.25 inches plus 1" for width of level, plus 5/8" for the wood baseboard equals...*drum roll please*....11.875 inches (leaving 1/2" behind the tank if I see that picture as correctly as I am sure I do actually makes this a perfect 12" rough with 7/8" behind the toilet tank!!). Check out imgrowler's post #20....you have just proved his specification sheet is EXACTLY dead on!!!!

And the other picture below showing a tape measure over the toilet pipe....MILO, you couldn't be more insulting if you tried. This picture only proves that you rough in your toilets contrary to engineered specifications...??? I would not brag about that!

I have nothing else to say on this... Thank you for driving my point home!

*UNBELIEVABLE*

MARK

MassPlumber2008, well, my apology for getting your blood going. :D Now, calm down, everything will be just fine...

Anyway, that first photo doesn't show it clearly, but the level actually slides - clearly - between the wall and toilet tank - even though it is sitting on top of the baseboard. I had a hard time sliding my 4' level in from the top because of shelf above the tank. Maybe I should have taken better photo that shows that better. I realize, this one may be read incorrectly...

Yes, we always rough-in our toilets as shown in the second pic to avoid the "NatalieBlueEyes" effect. This is based on what customer asks, architects request, and GCs expect. Otherwise, we would not get paid not to mention stayed in business for very long time. It is certainly not against the Plumbing Code to install toilet so it sits nicely close against the wall and its final effect pleases everybody involved. Or, perhaps, is it in your area?

Milo...

*RIDICULOUS*


Whether level slides in behind the toilet or not... down at the floor (where toilet measures are taken)... YOU HAVE STILL MEASURED FROM THE FRONT OF THE LEVEL WITH THE BASEBOARD BEHIND THAT... again, proving that a 12" rough meets the specification numbers in the sheet posted for you...

And if you are telling me that your GCs, your architects and customers have told you to ignore specification sheets then I don't believe you!! Although closer to wall....who says 1" is not as good as 1/2"... you?

In my area, any GC, architect or customer let me decide how to rough my plumbing... I assure you!

Simple as this... you just don't get it... I see that now!

*RIDICULOUS*



.

Milo...

*RIDICULOUS*

Whether level slides in behind the toilet or not...down at the floor (where toilet measures are taken)...YOU HAVE STILL MEASURED FROM THE FRONT OF THE LEVEL WITH THE BASEBOARD BEHIND THAT........again, proving that a 12" rough meets the specification numbers in the sheet posted for you...

And if you are telling me that your GCs, your architects and customers have told you to ignore specification sheets then I don't believe you!! Although closer to wall....who says 1" is not as good as 1/2"....you??

In my area, any GC, architect or customer let me decide how to rough my plumbing...I assure you!!

*RIDICULOUS*

.

I am sorry to publicly admit to you - but yes, as a plumber, I do have to listen to my General Contractor, Architect, City Inspectors - and most importantly - to my customers. My willingness to listen and do what ever entire team suggests has never failed me. Unlike you, I am not allowed to do what ever I want to do. It is not my call. Every project is a team effort with one thing in mind: satisfactory completion of the project.

MILO... last time here...

Are you telling me that your GC, architect and customers tell you to short the rough in on your toilets..?

Is this a discussion you have had with any of them..?

Let me see... GC says... MILO... forget the 12" rough in speced for this toilet...I want it closer than engineered principles suggest..?? That 1" space the spec. sheet calls for is wrong...

Is that the conversation you had with your contractors... please!

Try not to be a smarta** OK Milo... cause I have no trouble PUBLICLY ADMITTING you are way off here... and you are being unprofessional...

Do you pout like this in the field when you don't get your way??

MILO...last time here...

Are you telling me that your GC, architect and customers tell you to short the rough in on your toilets..??

Is this a discussion you have had with any of them...??

Let me see....GC says...MILO...forget the 12" rough in speced for this toilet...I want it closer than engineered principles suggest..?? That 1" space the spec. sheet calls for is wrong...

Is that the conversation you had with your contractors....please!!

Try not to be a smarta** OK Milo...cause I have no trouble PUBLICLY ADMITTING you are way off here...and you are being unprofessional.....

Do you pout like this in the field when you don't get your way??

Not exactly, massplumber2008: What we engage in is called "dialog". I don't know if you noticed, but that's exactly what I am trying to establish here. ( No need to write in bold letters... ) In any case, my Architect , GC, and / or my client tell me to make sure that toilet tank sits flush with the wall. It is not "my" call. They will accept nothing less...

MILO...

Ridiculous to suggest that your CLIENTS want your toilet to sit FLUSH with the wall! Why have you got a license again..

And so you are clear, I always write in bold and in color occasionally (check any of my posts to anyone)... offsets and makes clear the points I want to make clear... like now... Nonsense!

You continue to try to mislead here... fact is that you still have not acknowledged that you measured from the front of the level with baseboard behind it and tried to convince everyone here that a 12" rough in is actually 10.25"... and you were wrong... haven't heard anything about that all of a sudden. FACT IS THAT YOU CAN SEE THE 10.25 MEASURE ON THE TAPE... AND LEVEL AND BASEBOARD ARE TIGHT... SO WHAT IS THE MEASURE... WHAT MORE CAN YOU SHOW US?

Further, you almost convinced Natalie that her plumber messed up when in fact he is only plumbing according to national standards and was DEAD ON SPEC.

Your opinion is one thing... but continuing to argue that the entire plumbing industry is wrong with respect to specification sheets and then that they could be so far off that YOU discovered that all toilets need to be roughed in at 10.25" from now on... c'mon Milo??


.

I am sorry to publicly admit to you - but yes, as a plumber, I DO have to listen to my General Contractor, Architect, City Inspectors - and most importantly - to my customers. My willingness to listen and do what ever entire team suggests has never failed me. Unlike you, I am NOT allowed to do what ever I want to do. It is not my call. Every project is a team effort with one thing in mind: satisfactory completion of the project.

Y'know, I'm trying really hard to understand where you're coming from, Milo.

Really, I am.

You say it isn't your call -- Well, if you are the one offering the warranty on your work, then yes, it *IS* your call.

Rigidly following manufacturer specs gives you something to point back to if something changes between the time you roughed things in and set the fixture.

Architects, H/O's, Designers and GC's can and do arbitrarily change things after rough-in.

The H/O might find a little more money in their budget and decide to put wainscotting or tile on the back wall -- Or if you accounted for tile or wainscotting in your rough-in, you might arrive on trim-out day to discover that the tile or wainscotting has morphed into slab granite or marble.

What if the Designer, H/O or Architect decides to change to a TOTO, Kohler or Sterling one piece, all of them WC's that will not mount on anything less than a 12" rough-in?

Seriously -- If you are the owner of the company, then the only thing between you and being on the winning side of a lawsuit is strict adherence to standard industry practices and manufacturer specifications.

OK Guys! Enough!!
I think we can all agree that different areas have different codes and practices. You may run water over head in the attic and drop down while we don't think it's the best way to pipe a dwelling, (We pipe under the slab.)
You may be forced to follow manufactures directions to center the closet bend 12" off a finished wall, while in my area we feel that 12 5/8ths. off the rough in string leaves us with too much space between tank and wall so we rough 12" off the string. SO WHAT?? I'm going to get sued for 5/8ths of a inch? Don't be ridiculous! Remember the hassle growler and I had about DW air gaps? Growler thought he was dead right because his code mandated a counter top air gap. I thought I was dead right becase a mechanical air gap can fail and a high loop can't, plus I had all these complaints about counter top air gaps clogging up and pumping the discharge all over the counter and not a one about a high loop air gap. We both thought we were correct and nobody won. Isn't that where we are now? The asker has been answered and here we still are. We're all experienced plumbers here. No one disputes that. But the disagreement between growler and myself didn't put the best face of the Plumbing Page forward and this discussion doesn't either. Growler and I agreed to disagree and let it drop. And so should you. Bottom line? It doesn't play well for our expertise when our plumbing experts take up space taking shots at one another. Every one of us is a experienced tradesman. Shouldn't we start acting like one? Between us we have so much to offer. Let's get back to the business of answering questions.. Regards to all, Tom

Speedball1: Thank you

Yeah thanks Tom... now Milo can just drop this like he should have in the first place!

Mark

Amen!

Every body!! Huggs and kisses all around!!

Tom, you're 80 and I'm 60, could we just shake on it and have a cold one? Pleasssse

What ever happened to Natalie? Looks like Natalie never responded with the result. I have a similar situation. Framing and rough-in plumbing is done. I would like to install a TOTO Nexus CST794SF in our basement bath. Installation instructions say that we need a 12" rough in from back wall. We have 13 3/4 from the back wall and 18 on center from the side wall. If I purchase this toilet, will it fit properly. Will I need to order an extra part for a 14" rough in? I don't want to order something that I will need to return. Help...

Most toilets are installed on 12" rough. If you have 13 3/4" rough than you will have space between tank and wall. You may check with TOTO if they sell this particular model of toilet in 14" rough in. If positive - and you don't like space behind toilet tank - than get 14" rough toilet.

The toilet must b a 10" rough toilet

Vince, Ya got to quit answering old dead threads. Cheer, Tom

Closed, this is a two year old thread, does no one ever look at dates