I feel a little bit guilty for posting in here while I am in mourning and observing shiva... but I'm having trouble sleeping again and I guess this is a bit of a distraction for me. If you're curious what I'm talking about, please read my thread under bereavement:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=22654

Anyway, these are 2 simple questions about wine and spirits. I know that some Christians and most Muslims do not drink any alcohol. My first question is, can they cook with alcohol? Because with most recipes, the actual alcohol evaporates during the cooking.

My second question is for Christians who don't drink alcohol. Didn't Jesus drink? I remember reading in the NT that some people called him a drunkard, and also that he turned water into wine at a wedding. Or maybe what he drank wasn't alcohol as we know it today?

Anyway I'm just really curious about both, so if anyone wants to enlighten me I'd appreciate it, thanks!

Hello, first those that don't use alcohol don't use it at all in any mannor, including cooking.

But it is only the very small percentage of Christians that don't drink at all.
Most merely teach it is sinful to drink in large amounts. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopal, Methodist ( and I know I am forgetting some) all allow drinking. It is merely what I call some of the more newer churches ( have to remember Chrsitianity is over 2000 years old, so any church that is only a couple hundred years old is new in the history of Christianity. Many have returned to a more legalistic view point of Christianity.

Those that don't believe in drinking will say that Jesus just drank grape juice not wine. Showing of course a lack of understanding of the Jewish culture and history. One can not use grape juice in one passage where Jesus is doing it, and then wine where it warns against excessive drinking.

But that is what is so great about American Christianity, everyone is allowed to start their own religion using their own beliefs.

Hi,
It depends on the particular beliefs in any particular religious church or denomination.
For example, our own church takes the "Lord's Supper" every Sunday, which is grape juice, believing that Jesus also drank grape juice at the "Last Supper".

Thanks to both of you for the great answers. But Fred, do you know why your church thinks Jesus drank grape juice and not wine? Like do you have some sort of explanation for that? That's what I'm curious about. Because I know that at the Last Supper, Jesus was celebrating the Jewish festival of Passover, and at Passover wine has always been used.

I never heard of that before, Call it me being ignorant maybe, but Jesus drinking grape juice, that is so funny, I fell off my chair and broke an arm. Wine was such an important symbol and tradition in Jesus days.

Joe

I was taught that back then water wasn't as pure as it is today (well to some point anyways) so the wine helped to purify it some. I think I am using the correct terminology. I am not sure who in my church drinks and don't drink but I know in my old church we had a few that liked to have a glass of wine here and there. I think the ones who absolutely restrict it, it's because they don't want even the appearance of evil so by drinking would give the appearance that you might hang out in bars or something. This is only my interpretation and viewpoint.

I know when I was first born again I was drinking and had a hard time giving it up so I did it slowly until I finally gave it up permanently. I know my wife would not appreciate me drinking even a drop and that is only because of my past. This is why I don't drink.

Also, my old church (and probably the church we go ot now) don't allow you to drink if you are a leader of some sort. That means a head of a ministry, elder, etc.

Our church takes grape juice for communion (Lord's supper) however, that is not because we believe Jesus drank grape juice. It is probably because the church don't want to be responsible in a recovery alcoholic (or anyone for that matter) to taste a drink.

You do have so many different views and hopefully others will give insight to either what their church believes or what they have witnessed or heard.

I never heard of that before, Call it me being ignorant maybe, but Jesus drinking grape juice, that is so funny, I fell off my chair and broke an arm. Wine was such an important symbol and tradition in Jesus days.

Joe

Haha. Well I hadn't heard of the grape juice idea either, so don't feel bad!

And thanks jduke, your explanation makes a lot of sense to me actually. Your church's reasoning has more to do with alcoholism or alcohol abuse than the fact that Jesus drank wine, and I can understand that. Actually what is done in synagogue for kaddish, there is always a bottle of wine and a bottle of kosher grape juice. People who can't drink wine for medical reasons can then easily take the grape juice. Interestingly enough though, Jews can also observe kaddish using whiskey or vodka. At least where I live, the synagogue offers that choice as well.

And yeah I'm not interested in turning this into a debate or anything, just curious where the beliefs come from, so thanks again to everyone who's responded and feel free to add more. I'm finding it all very interesting.

orange:)
Most of those folks who believe it is sinful to drink alcohlic beverages do not use it in any way. But a few do use it to cook with because the alcohol is boiled or baked off in the process of cooking.
As answer to your question about Jesus and wine here is an article I wrote on the subject.
Of The Cup, Wine, And Blood
There are those who claim the Jesus never drank wine. They give a number of reasons including to claim that he was a member of the Essenee sect which was strictly religious as perhaps John the Baptizer might have been. Actually John was more likely a Nazorite. They were men who made a special religious vow which included that they could not drink any strong drink, no wine, no grape juice, in fact they could consume no part of the grape plant. The entire obligations they were sworn to can be found in the book of Numbers.
Jesus not only drank wine, he also made many gallons of it out of water. Jesus was the perfect sinless Jewish man. As such he participated in all Jewish celebrations, festivals, and rituals. Some of them required the consumption of wine for centuries before the birth of Christ and they still do.
When Jesus instituted the sacrament of the communion meal of the Last Supper (the Eucharist) it was early spring, long before fresh grapes were available from which to squeeze juice. So when Jesus spoke of "the fruit of the vine" during his last Seder (Passover Meal) He was referring to wine. In that desert country there was no way to preserve grape juice which turns to wine automatically if not kept below 34 degrees fahrenheit. A wild yeast that grows with the grapes in the field causes that to happen. Washing the grapes does not remove much of it. Boiling will kill it, but if you've ever drank boiled grape juice it's very likely you'll never do it again.
The word "wine" appears in the Holy Bible 260 times in 236 verses. The word "cup", which is often used in reference to wine, appears 64 time in 57 verses. The word blood appears 408 times in 342 verse. If a person looks up every reference to those three words (In the context to which they are used) and correlates them with each other as indicated, and still believes that Jesus did not drink wine or that he did not consecrate wine into His blood when he established the Eucharist sacrament, they paid scant attention to what they had read or they are as close minded as a bank vault with the door welded shut.
Peace ans kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:) :) :)

To answer the one question, various groups, Methodist, penticostals, some Lutheran and others use grape juice instead of wine.

We do offer grape juice for those in the AA program, some are so strong in the program they are afraid that even the wine would make them feel like they are breaking the program. So if we are told ahead of time someone is there that would prefer juice we make it available. Since Jesus changed water into wine, we figure he can change the juice also.

There is one group I know of ( LDS , mormons) that use water with their commmunion instead of wine or juice.

Bishop Chuck,
I agree with your post.
But I wanted to mention that I'm an alcoholic and have been sober for 27 years.
During that time I have sipped wine of Christ's blood many times.
By His grace I have never had that cause a thirst to go back to drinking booze of any sort.
Though for the first 3 months of sobriety I abstained form the cup, after I talked with other Catholics and those others that partake of the Eucharist who had no desire to start drinking, I started sipping from the cup of my Lord.
One drop is as effective as a mouthful.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I fully understand, in the last church I was a priest at, we had an AA group that meet at our church. Many of the non church AA members would visit our church from time to time. Somewhere along the lines the person over that group at our church asked if we could offer a juice instead of wine. I was always of the mind blessed cup is blessed cup and God knows the intent of the persons heart. I did not want, as Paul also warned my actions to stop someone from coming and finding the Lord.

Since our faith believes in the transformation of the wine and bread, I figure that God can transform the juice as easy as he could the wine.
( or even water since he did trasform that into wine before)

I was glad to see many of the group just coming to church and did not want some of their first experiences in a church perhaps to shun them.

But yes personally I never believed that one sip could do anay damage physcially and it would do a lot of good spiritially

I tend to agree with you, Bishop,
As the angel said to Mary, "With God all things are possible".
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Cooking with wine is OK. It's not wine itself that is condemned, it's the excessive use of it that can lead to drunkenness which makes a person lose partial control of his body and mind. So Jesus provided wine,

.

Isaiah 24:20['b]
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,.


Proverbs 23:21
For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

The Bible tells us that wine may be used also for medicinal purposes and to temporarily alleviate deep sadness caused by grief or to help us cope fear of immediate death.


Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

The Apostle Paul recommended it to Timothy

1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

But its excessive use disqualified a person from leadership responsibilities within the church.and even from fellowship.

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Titus 1:6-8
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given too much wine, teachers of good things;


KJV

Cooking with wine is OK. It's not wine itself that is condemned, it's the excessive use of it that can lead to drunkenness which makes a person lose partial control of his body and mind. So Jesus didn't provide wine for excessive use.

.

[b]Isaiah 24:20
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,.


Proverbs 23:21
For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

The Bible tells us that wine may be used also for medicinal purposes and to temporarily alleviate deep sadness caused by grief or to help us cope fear of immediate death.


Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

The Apostle Paul recommended it to Timothy

1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

But its excessive use disqualified a person from leadership responsibilities within the church.and even from fellowship.

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Titus 1:6-8
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given too much wine, teachers of good things;


KJV

Well Said,
Fred

While I sip my martini I thank God I am non religious and spiritual. Cheers!

Hypatia

Anything done in excess, that adversly affects one's life, I think is wrong. If you're slammed drunk every day, you're not doing anything right. You're probably not doing anything but being drunk! What about pot, weed, maryjane, grass. Is it, by nature, evil or a natural sin? If someone smokes a little here and there to relax or what ever... as opposed to a person that stays stoned 24/7? I personally don't use it but from what I have seen, pot smokers are much more "mellow" than a bar full of drunks. I think Jesus drank wine (not Welchs grape juice) but I doubt that he got falling down drunk. He did get rowdy once though when he tore up the money changers tables... maybe he drank a little too much and wanted to kick some but.:D

I think from looking at history and how children drank wine and water for centuries, you can pretty much count on them drinking. I think the drinking is a sin came into effect to control those sloshy people who drank in excess. We were barbarians you know, And drunk barbarians can get bloody, mean and well a lot of bad can and did come from these days. The dark ages were dark for a reason. Hell, think back and you will find the last 100 years is a great leap compared to past years. I think the church got tired of this uncivility and made it a crime against God to get drunk. Other churches took it to various levels from no drinking to occasional. To cover the fact that drinking was legal before this church law was passed, they changed minor things like Jesus drank grape juice not wine etc etc. Do you think unfermented hot fruit juices were a constant to a poor Jesus?
Reality sayd no refrigeration, more hot beer, warm wine and water.

If you get drunk often, its not such a good thing. I totally agree with you on excess. To drink occasionally, get a good spin on is ok too, so long as you can refrain from being a complete dumb as$ and peeing on your friends couch.

When we view history lets not only listen to scholors give oration on their version of the facts but let us view history with a practical mind and through our own eyes. We will begin to see the flaws of mans opinion and the constant facts of time.

Hypatia

I know that some Christians and most Muslims do not drink any alcohol. My first question is, can they cook with alcohol? Because with most recipes, the actual alcohol evaporates during the cooking.

My second question is for Christians who don't drink alcohol. Didn't Jesus drink? I remember reading in the NT that some people called him a drunkard, and also that he turned water into wine at a wedding. Or maybe what he drank wasn't alcohol as we know it today?

Anyways I'm just really curious about both, so if anyone wants to enlighten me I'd appreciate it, thanks!

1. Cooking makes the alcoholic content of the wine, etc, evaporate so that the product is non-alcoholic.

2. I am a teetotal Christian. In the Middle East I drank the unfermented juice of the grape. I have no way of knowing what Jesus drank. I will post some passages of scripture that cause confusions for Christians - and - perhaps for others.

Leviticus 10:8-11
8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses

Numbers 6:1-3
1 ¶ AND the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate [themselves] to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate [themselves] unto the LORD:
3 He shall separate [himself] from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Deuteronomy 14:26
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


Deuteronomy 29:5-6
5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Judges 13:4
4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean [thing]:

Judges 13:7
7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean [thing]: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.


1 Samuel 1:15-16
15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I [am] a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
16 Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.

Proverbs 31:4-7
4 [It is] not for kings, O Lemuel, [it is] not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Isaiah 5:11
11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, [that] they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, [till] wine inflame them!


Isaiah 5:22-23
22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Isaiah 24:9
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.

Isaiah 28:7
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble [in] judgment.


Micah 2:11
11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, [saying], I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

Luke 1:13-16
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1); "Wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps." (Deuteronomy 32:33); "Be not drunk with wine wherein is excess." (Ephesians 5:18).

In the Old Testament 'wine' is translated from the Hebrew yayin which comes from an unused root meaning to effervesce. This is probably related to the fermentation process. The NT word translated as wine comes from the Hebrew root.

Most of the passages I have quoted seem to suggest that the use of fermented beverages, including 'strong' drinks,' is antithetical to righteousness. This is, I believe, suggested from the context. There are other passages in which wine is the customary drink, but it is worth noting that those who separate themselves (sanctification) for a holy purpose abstained from wine and strong drink.

I will suggest that perhaps Jesus drank unfermented wine, but the scriptural record is silent on that matter, so any conclusion is unsafe.

Ethyl alcohol is produced by yeast fermentation in grains and fibers containing sugar. The amount of alcohol in wine and beer is normally less than 10 percent because fermentation stops when the ethyl alcohol concentration reaches this level. In modern times, however, the amount in alcoholic beverages has been increased by distillation.

The availability of beverages with higher concentrations of alcohol has increased the number of social and medical problems associated with ingesting it. Some conditions that are increased among those who use alcohol include cancers of the oral cavity, larynx, and esophagus; cirrhosis of the liver; degenerative diseases of the central nervous system; and higher accidental death rates, both in respect of automobile and pedestrian accidents.





M:)RGANITE

Big News. Jesus drank wine and did all Jews of his day up till now.
I Jesus time there was no way to keep grape juice from turning into wine.
The only time they had grape juice to drink was during harvest time.
The Passover dinner is celebrated with several glasses or cups of wine from a time hundreds of years before Jesus drank it.
Jesus even spoke of putting new wine into old wine skins.
Sour wine in his day is what we call vinegar now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I never heard of that before, Call it me being ignorant maybe, but Jesus drinking grape juice, that is so funny, I fell off my chair and broke an arm. Wine was such an important symbol and tradition in Jesus days.

Joe

You were not drinking the unfermented stuff then?

M:pRGANITE

If we approach the Bible believing it to be just a hodge podge of men's ideas, we will expect contradictions see contradictions everywhere. But when we approach the Bible with the certainty that it has one author-God, who doesn't contradict himself, then we will rightfully assume that what might seem like contradictions are really based on our inability to permit one scripture from shedding light on another.

For example, the Israelites who were the wilderness for forty years were being punished for their lack of faith. So their condition was a special one and should be viewed that way when we consider the prohibition of drinking wine. The confusion concerning this would emerge if we cast aside our knowledge of this fact or did not consider it relevant-which it is.


Numbers 32:13
And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.

But when we approach the Bible with the certainty that it has one author-God, who doesn't contradict himself, then we will rightfully assume that what might seem like contradictions are really based on our inability to permit one scripture from shedding light on another.
It seems like you have really convinced yourself of this. Is it not already proven that the bible was written by several men and the word "inspired" by God?
Interesting take and manipulation of that theory. This is how man warps everything to reflect his own image. A plethora of interpretation where everyone is right until you are labeled a heretic.

Hypatia

Drink more Wine.
http://www.itmimg.org/images/youth/Wine.gif

It seems like you have really convinced yourself of this. Is it not already proven that the bible was written by several men and the word "inspired" by God?


Hypatia

Drink more Wine.



Just as you have convinced yourself otherwise.

I never said it wasn't written by men. God inspired men to write via his holy spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:19-21

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I am convinced of nothing, but I do lean to my knowledge and research compared to the thoughts of others.
Did you not just write "approach the Bible with the certainty that it has one author-God"? So this means every man who wrote it was magicly cleared of his interpretative ability and he channeled God while writing his portion of the bible?

You sure can spout bible quotes but do you live in totality by those words? Have you drank wine? Had a beer? Sipped a port? Tossed a shot?

Hypatia

I have been labeled a Heretic as we can see by this message:
This "disapproval" comment you gave:
"magprob disagrees: If that were true, we would have seen Jesus on the Welchs grape juice commercials by now!"

has been reported as inappropriate. You have insulted a religious belief. I gave a fact, and you disapproved with your own insulting opinion. This should not be allowed, and hopefully it will be deleted; not being shown in a Public Post to a valid question.
fredg

I replied that if you will show me proof of this statement, in the bible, I will give a public apoligy. If not, then I still disagree with you. I am sure people have been drinking grape juice for many years but in the bible it says Jesus drank WINE. To change that because someone thinks drinkinking wine is a sin has no basis in fact, only superstition... DOGMA.

"Justinian's despotic control over the Church was such that priests, bishops and even the pope were essentially powerless to resist his imperial doctrinal decrees. Justinian believed he and his wife, the power mad ex prostitute Theodora, were the elect of GOD to whom HE had entrusted the entire Christian empire, including Rome. Together they made dogma and translated it into law-adding clerical approvals as a mere formality."*
* See Milton V. Anastos, Justinian's Despotic Control over the Church...and his letter to Pope John II in 533.

I am convinced of nothing, but I do lean to my knowledge and research compared to the thoughts of others.
Did you not just write "approach the Bible with the certainty that it has one author-God"? So this means every man who wrote it was magicly cleared of his interpretative ability and he channeled God while writing his portion of the bible?

You sure can spout bible quotes but do you live in totality by those words? Have you drank wine? Had a beer? Sipped a port? Tossed a shot?

Hypatia


And your sources are completely devoid of the thoughts of others? Strange!

Of course I have tasted wine and beer. There is nothing in the Bible prohibiting it. Do I believe the Bible is inspired yes. Obviously you don't. But that's OK since everyone has a right to an opinion. So I am not angered by your choice of beliefs. I am simply responding to them for the sake of calm respectful discussion which you seem to have difficulty with.


BTW
What you consider magical is merely a trifle for God. Many things today might seem magical to our ancestors who would not understand how we do it.

I have no difficulty with your beliefs or thoughts, I only speak passionately and you are interpreting this as negativity to yourself. I hold passion in my writing and thinking, I simply do not know how to be dull.
I think the bible was inspired but not dictated. It is like watching a sunset and metaphorically comparing it to love in a poem. It is rich with inspiration and divine love and the author might never write such a brilliant thought provoking work again. Is an entire religion founded from this poem? Could be. Christianity was formed this way.

I am not judgemental by nature, I only pick a side and debate from that side. Often I switch sides if I see a valid point over the fence. the purpose of discussion and debate is to learn. The sad truth is most people do not learn but prefer to argue and further cement their beliefs.

I only find it comical when anyone in the world chooses to acknowledge a belief or theory but doesnt follow that belief or theory exactly. It is like a cop who breaks the law. You can't be on the fence and say " I AM" on this side or that side. You either Are completely or Are Not.
I do not aim the above specifically at you, it is only a general statement.

Hypatia

Here Here! I'll drink to that!!

I don't take such displays personally as you accuse me of doing.
I simply said that you seem to be laboring heavily under the restraints of this forum.

BTW

When I am quoted and the person who quotes uses the pronoun "you" I understand it to mean me. Sorry.



I fail to see the rub you are referring to Magprop. Can you please explain what you mean by "rub?" She claimed not to be speaking to me. I said she was because she used the word "you" You jumped in accusing me of having a "rub"? How's that?

You consider her posts intelligent. Good and well. But please grant others to differ with your opinion if they wish to.

Shi-at compadre, im not laboring! This is light stuff for me. I can discuss philosophy, ethics, religion, enlightenment, etc etc ad nauseum in my sleep.
Im brilliant, though I have trouble spelling being dislexic with a half broken keyboard that forgets to recognize the freaking shift button.

Heck, Im writing an article on how the theory of Dr Bohm's holographic universe ties into the collective experience that drives man to seek religion. Im also eating a taco, playing with my 2 year old son, working on a cd image for a DC band, posting here and signing petitions in the meantime.

This forum isnt heavy, my life is heavy lol!

Peace to ya!

Hypatia

WOW! Can I have a bite of that taco? I can't find a gooood taco here in Idaho! You just gave me an idea for the name of a band... "Holographic Taco"... cool ugh?

I wasn't referring to your intellectual abilities. Only to your needs to be expressive.

Mag you might not like my taco's. They are spinach, rabbit, tomato and sauce. I only eat meat I kill. I will sing in your band, I have an ok voice..lol.
Starman more people need to be expressive like me. We might not live in such an intellectually supressed world if they did.

I wear my heart on my sleeve.

Hypatia

Mag you might not like my taco's. They are spinach, rabbit, tomato and sauce. I only eat meat I kill. I will sing in your band, I have an ok voice..lol.
Starman more people need to be expressive like me. We might not live in such an intellectually supressed world if they did.

I wear my heart on my sleeve.

Hypatia


No problemo!
Hey, I usd to eat a lot of tacos when I lived in Chicago.
Good food!

If we approach the Bible believing it to be just a hodge podge of men's ideas, we will expect contradictions see contradictions everywhere. But when we approach the Bible with the certainty that it has one author-God, who doesn't contradict himself, then we will rightfully assume that what might seem like contradictions are really based on our inability to permit one scripture from shedding light on another.



I agree that God does not contradict himself. But it is undeniable that the Bible contains contradictions and other errors. It was not the hand of God that put the ink on the parchment, but the hands of men, some who were inspired, and some were obviously more inspired than others because there is not one standard of inspiration throughout the bible.

Many of the original monographs were edited later to refashion the theology to suit the prevailing accepted teachings.

This is only hard to take if one adopts the position that the Bible is God-breathed in every single word, errors and all, and that the present texts represent the texts as originally written.

Such a view cannot be supported.



M;) RGANITE

I haven't yet come across a contradiction that didn't have a logical explanation or that didn't turn out to be a misunderstanding. I don't blindly believe in concepts that lack support.

To Orange On Spirits And Wine:

The Alcoholic Content Is The Only Difference. Wine Has A Low Percentage Of Alcohol And Spirits Are A
Stronger Variety. Remember Jesus Also Said Something About Not Drinkiing "new Wine" With His Apostles Until They Were In Heaven.

To Orange On Spirits And Wine:

The Alcoholic Content Is The Only Difference. Wine Has A Low Percentage Of Alcohol And Spirits Are A
Stronger Variety. Remember Jesus Also Said Something About Not Drinkiing "new Wine" With His Apostles Until They Were In Heaven.

What is new wine? I've never heard that term before.

Btw, thanks everyone for continuing to post and discuss in this thread. I appreciate it and have enjoyed reading everything. I'm very close to having my baby at this point (2-3 weeks and they are going to induce me), and I have trouble sitting for long periods, so I'm not on much to contribute. But I do appreciate all the discussion, thanks.

What is new wine? I've never heard that term before.



The new wine mentioned in the Bible is wine which is undergoing fermentation. That's why new wine would produce gasses that would put pressure on old wineskins which lacked the needed elasticity to expand and cause them to burst.

Mark 2:22 (NKJV)

"Jesus said, 'No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins." (Mark 2:21-22)



BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: new wine (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=new+wine&searchtype=all&version1=8&spanbegin=1&spanend=73)

Thanks for that answer, Starman. So then is Stony saying in effect that the reason some Christians don't drink wine is because Jesus said they would not drink new wine until they were with him in heaven? Like is all current wine considered new wine?

I feel a little bit guilty for posting in here while I am in mourning and observing shiva... but I'm having trouble sleeping again and I guess this is a bit of a distraction for me. If you're curious what I'm talking about, please read my thread under bereavement:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=22654

Anyways, these are 2 simple questions about wine and spirits. I know that some Christians and most Muslims do not drink any alcohol. My first question is, can they cook with alcohol? Because with most recipes, the actual alcohol evaporates during the cooking.

My second question is for Christians who don't drink alcohol. Didn't Jesus drink? I remember reading in the NT that some people called him a drunkard, and also that he turned water into wine at a wedding. Or maybe what he drank wasn't alcohol as we know it today?

Anyways I'm just really curious about both, so if anyone wants to enlighten me I'd appreciate it, thanks!

Im a catholic, living in a very catholic country, and I can corect u by saying us catholics drink. Its not a sin to drink.
I like drinking, as long as all in moderation, why not!

Yes I know Catholics drink. I went to a Catholic boarding school for 4 years. My question was addressed to those Christians who don't drink.

Morganite,
If you look at the passages you mentioned in context you will be able to note that they are in regard to certain times of conditions when one should not drink wine. John the Baptizer could not drink or eat anything from a grape bush or vine because of the sect who had sworn himself to.
Aaron priest were forbidden to drink wine before going into or while in the Tabernacle. They had to be clear headed in doing their duties there.
ETC.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks for that answer, Starman. So then is Stony saying in effect that the reason some Christians don't drink wine is because Jesus said they would not drink new wine until they were with him in heaven? Like is all current wine considered new wine?


I'm not really sure what Stony meant. Perhaps he might clarify it for us.
In reference to the scripture he mentioned though, it's useful to remember that the Bible often uses foods as symbols.

"Do not work for food that spoils," he told the people, "but for food that endures to eternal life" (John 6:27)

Bread, for example, represents truth as well as Jesus' body given as a sacrifice in our behalf.

Matthew 26:26
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Whea is used to represent those who are approved in contrast to the weeds or tares.

Matthew 13:30

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Water symbolizes truth.

John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Revelation 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Yeast or leaven symbolizes sin or corruption, or false teaching

Matthew 16:10-12
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

In a like manner, wine is used symbolically and is closely associated with joy.

Isaiah 24:11
There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.

Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart;...

Based on this, the scripture Stony posted in which wine is mentioned, is understood by some Bible scholars to mean the joy or happiness his apostles were experiencing in being personally with Jesus and which they would not experience again until they were resurrected into heaven.

BTW
Not all biblical references to water, wine, bread, and so on are figurative.

Good post Starman, but keep in mind that some fppd and drink are not figuative as in John 6:51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jesus was talking about the Eucharist he was going to establish.
Peace and Kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Good post Starman, but keep in mind that some fppd and drink are not figuative as in John 6:51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54. he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jesus was talking about the Eucharist he was going to establish.
Peace and Kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Well I guess we differ on that point. Since figurative means symbolic. Symbolic means standing as a symbol for something else. Jesus is using bread here to mean his body. So based on this many Christians believe his usage of "bread" is a figurative one.


Literal and Figurative Language in the Bible
... Literal and Figurative. How to understand the language of the Bible. Jesus took bread and said, "Take and... read the words of the Bible, we are faced with a choice...
Literal and Figurative Language in the Bible (http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/literal2.htm)

BTW
I understand your viewpoint which is the Catholic one which understands the bread as being literally Jesus' body. But Jesus himself tells us that his words were not to be taken literally but in a spiritual way. He told this to his apostles later after people had taken offense at his words.


John 6
61And Jesus having known in himself that his disciples are murmuring about this, said to them, `Doth this stumble you?

63the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life; YLT

But it is only the very small percentage of Christians that don't drink at all.
Most merely teach it is sinful to drink in large amounts. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopal, Methodist ( and I know I am forgetting some) all allow drinking. It is merely what I call some of the more newer churches ( have to remember Chrsitianity is over 2000 years old, so any church that is only a couple hundred years old is new in the history of Christianity. Many have returned to a more legalistic view point of Christianity.



Pentecostals and similar use blackcurrant juice.

Let me pose a 'legalistic' question. If we decide that the drink at Christian communion HAS to be wine made from GRAPES, does it have to be from the same kind of grapes that made the wine that Jesus drank?

Does the bread he blessed, brake, and shared have to be the same today as it was when Jesus did it?

Is it the properties of the substances involved that is important, or is it the act of memorial - "Do this in remembrance of me" - that is essential?



M;)RGANITE

Pentecostals and similar use blackcurrant juice.
Does the bread he blessed, brake, and shared have to be the same today as it was when Jesus did it? "Do this in remembrance of me" - that is essential?
M;)RGANITE

The only requirement for the bread is that it should be unleavened in order to represent Jesus' purity. Jesus used leaven as a symbol of false teachings and hypocrisy.

Matthew 16:

6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

11
How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

12
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.



Mark 8:15
And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.



Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Starman,
I believe what the whole passage says...
John 6: 46. Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.
47. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48. I am the bread of life.
49. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
59. This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caperna-um.
60. Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"
61. But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?
62. Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64. But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
65. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
66. After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
Please Jesus did not say something like, "Hey fellows, I was just talking symbolically."
No He let them walk away because he meant what he said.
Note what He said to those who remained with Him.
John 6: 67. Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"
68. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;
69. And we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
To me it was clear that Jesus meant what he said when I was a Protestant and still is as a Catholic.
Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

The only requirement for the bread is that it should be unleavened in order to represent Jesus' purity. Jesus used leaven as a symbol of false teachings and hypocrisy.



I do not see that requirement. Jesus explained that he was not speaking of bread or yeast, but speaking metaphorically:

"I spake it not to you concerning bread [.....] Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees"


It was a warning against false and hypocritical teachings and had nothing to do with bread. Leaven is yeast, the raising agent that permeates the dough that will be baked into bread. By warning his disciples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, he was explaining how pervasive false teachings were in the church of Christ, and how such teachings would alter the nature of his church to a similar extent that leaven changes bread dough and the baked product.

Jesus came from the semiheathen region of the Decapolis to the Israelite area of Magdala. "For some time He had been absent from home. He had been sought out with trustful faith in the regions of Tyre and Sidon. He had been welcomed with ready gratitude in heathen Decapolis; here, at home, He was met with the flaunt of triumphant opposition, under the guise of hypocritical zeal." In Decapolis the multitudes believed his words, rejoiced in his miracles, ate of the loaves and fishes provided by his providence, and glorified him as the God of Israel. Back among his own he found "all the self-satisfied hypocrisies of a decadent religion drawn up in array to stop His path!" (Farrar, Life of Christ, p. 376.)

There among his own he was assailed by the rulers of the people, who, under the guise of demanding a sign from heaven, proclaimed their utter disbelief in and complete rejection of his Messianic claims.

Thus the issue was squarely set. It is the doctrine of the Almighty that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God; that salvation comes by him and him alone; that he has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel; and that all men everywhere must believe in him, repent of their sins, be baptized in water, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and work the works of righteousness, or they can in nowise enter into the kingdom of God.

It was the doctrine of the Pharisees—and all who joined with them in opposing Jesus—that salvation came by the law of Moses alone; that the man Jesus was a deluded fanatic without divine power; that he was a rabble-rouser, an anarchist, a subverter of all that was great and good in their traditions; that he was a blasphemer worthy of death; that he performed miracles by the power of the prince of devils, yea, that he was even Beelzebub Incarnate; and that he should be rejected, cast out, and stoned to death as one who prophesied falsely and led the people away from their ancient moorings.

And so Jesus, after deriding the sign-seekers as wicked and adulterous, chose to leave them and minister and heal among other people. Thanks to their darkened minds, their perverted consciences, and their stony hearts, he would go elsewhere to preach. "He did not press His mercies on those who rejected them. As in after days His nation were suffered to prefer their robber and their murderer to the Lord of Life, so now the Galileans were suffered to keep their Pharisees and lose their Christ." (Farrar, pp. 376-77.) He and his disciples set sail, leaving Magdala for the area of Bethsaida-Julias on the north and east of the sacred sea.

Their departure was made in haste, and the disciples failed to take food for their sustenance. Apparently after they landed at their destination, Jesus—ever anxious to strengthen them spiritually; concerned lest any of them be tainted in any degree by the damning doctrine of his enemies; and using their failure to bring bread as a teaching aid—took occasion to raise a warning voice. "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees," he said. Mark tells us that he also warned them against "the leaven of Herod."

Those same disciples, at Jacob's Well, had missed the true meaning of his statement that he had meat to eat that they knew not of. But a short time back the metaphors about eating the bread which came down from heaven had failed to find quick and easy lodgment in their souls; and yet in the future they would miss the deep meaning of the expression about Lazarus sleeping and needing to be awakened. At this stage of their spiritual development, metaphors seemed to give them some trouble. They therefore "reasoned among themselves, saying, He said this because we have taken no bread."

Jesus, perceiving how foolish and spiritually immature they were, responded with a severe and stern rebuke. "O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?" he said. "Perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?" "How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?"

Only then, after such a rebuke, was Matthew able to conclude: "Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." And, of course, of the Herodians and every other sect, party, cult, or denomination, for all such are not of God, and have not the fulness of the gospel, which alone sets forth the doctrine of God.

"Leaven was one of the very commonest types of sin, and especially of insidious and subterranean sin." (Farrar, p. 379.) Leaven—the fermenting, defiling, contaminating influence of those who opposed him! Leaven—the debasing, damning doctrines of those who would one day cause his death! Leaven—the views and feelings of those who were anti-Christ and who sought to keep others from accepting him as their Messiah and Deliverer! The leaven of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians, scribes—of all who believed and preached false doctrine—such leaven was evil. They must beware lest they be tainted in the slightest degree.

Literally, leaven is a substance, any substance, that produces fermentation, as for instance yeast which causes bread to rise.

Figuratively, leaven is any element which, by its fermenting, spreading influence, affects groups of people so that they believe and act in particular ways.

Thus to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees is to shun their false doctrines, their concept that the Messiah must prove his claim to divinity by signs, for instance. Similarly, today, the warning is to beware of the leaven of any group whose false doctrines and antichrist philosophies work to keep men from accepting the truths of the gospel of Christ.

He likened the Pharisees unto white-washed sepulchres, beautiful to look at but full of defilement, "full of dead men's bones." The aristocratic Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead.



M;)RGANITE

If you were so strongly convinced that the bread could be eatened in any form chosen then why feign not to know and ask for an explanation?

BTW
I never said Jesus was not speaking metaphorically. Jesus used the bread as a symbol of his body. The bread used during the Lord's supper was unleavened because unleavened bread was required for the passover and Jesus celebrated the passover as required by the Mosaic Law prior to his instituting the Lord's Supper.


I do not see that requirement. Jesus explained that he was not speaking of bread or yeast, but speaking metaphorically:

"I spake it not to you concerning bread [.....] Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees"

M;)RGANITE


Sorry I caused a misunderstanding. I should have brought out that the decision to view leavened bread as representing sin is also supported by the Hebrew scriptures. Actually, that the unleavened bread represents Jesus' sinlessness a generally accepted.

SYMBOLIC MEANINGS OF EGYPT AND LEAVENING... of Christ, it seems logical that the unleavened bread eaten during the original Passover also represents purity and sinlessness. Jesus the Bread... Unleavened bread is always symbolic... b5w48 (http://bibleresearch.org/observancebook5/b5w48.html)

Excerpt:


Christ the Unleavened Bread

We know from the writings in the New Testament that the unleavened bread to be eaten during the Passover of the gospel age represents Jesus Christ's sinless body as the Passover lamb of God.

Because the unleavened bread of the Passover during the gospel age represents the purity and sinlessness of Christ, it seems logical that the unleavened bread eaten during the original Passover also represents purity and sinlessness...

The eating of the bread and lamb was also prophetic and symbolic of the new Passover ritual in which unleavened bread is eaten as a symbol of the sinless body of Christ (Lk.22:26; 1.Cor.11:23-24).


"You shall therefore sacrifice the Passover to the Lord your God, of the flock of the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name. You shall eat no leavened bread with it;" (Deut.16:2-3 KJV).

The Israelites left Egypt (symbolic sin) without leavened bread (symbolic sin)...


The unleavened bread also pointed toward the time when God would make a new agreement with national Israel and the rest of humanity. Under the new agreement, unleavened bread is to be eaten as a reminder that those under this agreement have put away sin and must remain sinless before God the Father and Jesus Christ.

See Rom.6:1-16; 1.Cor.5:6-8; Jn.3:6-10.

By B. L. Cocherell, file b5w48


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW
Yes, Jesus was speaking metaphorically by using leaven as a symbol of hypocrisy and false teachings. He could have very well used another symbol but chose leaven as had other writers before him to represent something negative.

"....They are all adulterers as an oven heated by the baker, who ceases from the raising after he has kneaded the dough until it be leavened" (Hos.7:1-4 KJV).


A Christian View of Passover Week
The unleavened bread eaten at Passover signified freedom from sin. It represents Yahshua's (Jesus') sinlessness as well...
A Christian View of Passover Week (http://pillar-of-enoch.com/Artist/Writings/religion/Passover.html)

Exodus 11 - 12 -- The Passover Meal
Jeannie Cole's ladies' class lecture describes and explains the Passover meal... symbolic of the hope of freedom that enabled their ancestors to withstand the bitterness of slavery. Matzah - the unleavened bread... Jesus is our example of perfection and sinlessness...
Exodus 11 - 12 -- The Passover Meal (http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/wings/lbcexo11-12.htm)

But of course you are entitled to your opinion as well.

If you were so strongly convinced that the bread could be eatened in any form chosen then why feign not to know and ask for an explanation?


I know what I believe, but my opinion is not the only one and I am interested in hearing what others have to say about this and many other important subjects. I am sorry you feel it necessary to become irritated.




M:(RGANITE



But of course you are entitled to your opinion as well.

Thank you. You were getting me worried that you were intolerant.

M

I know what I believe, but my opinion is not the only one and I am interested in hearing what others have to say about this and many other important subjects. I am sorry you feel it necessary to become irritated.




M:(RGANITE
Thank you. You were getting me worried that you were intolerant.

M

Sorry about that original statement I made which I erased because I realized too late that it might come across as a bit rude. I try to avoid being rude but sometimes I slip and have to retrace myself. Thank you for your patience and your explanation concerning your motives for posting a question. I too was becoming a bit worried that you were posting merely to set someone up for a strong irrefutable response. But I'm glad to see that it isn't so as you must be of realizing that I am not intolerant of other people's views.

Actually, most people I encounter on the web are intolerant of my views because some of my views are not in the mainstream of what the majority of people considering themselves Christian believe to be irrefutable truth and based on infallible authority. Some even disagree with my views on tolerance of other people's views as I have expressed them here on this forum and prefer to believe that God is as intolerant of others' views as they are. But then again, they too have a right to their intolerance as I have a right to disagree with it.

Sorry about that original statement I made which I erased because I realized too late that it might come across as a bit rude. I try to avoid being rude but sometimes I slip and have to retrace myself. Thank you for your patience and your explanation concerning your motives for posting a question. I too was becoming a bit worried that you were posting merely to set someone up for a strong irrefutable response. But I'm glad to see that it isn't so as you must be of realizing that I am not intolerant of other people's views.

Actually, most people I encounter on the web are intolerant of my views because some of my views are not in the mainstream of what the majority of people considering themselves Christian believe to be irrefutable truth and based on infallible authority. Some even disagree with my views on tolerance of other people's views as I have expressed them here on this forum and prefer to believe that God is as intolerant of others' views as they are. But then again, they too have a right to their intolerance as I have a right to disagree with it.

...

:)

M

Morganite,
I find you post interesting,
But I refer the simple answer as presented in the bible.
It was because of a command of God.
The Hebrews left Egypt so fast that they had to bake the bread before it could rise.
God instructed the Hebrews to have a special Passover celebration each year there after and unleavened bread was a part of that.
As recorded here: Exodus 12: 8. They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.
That is the reason Jesus used unleavened bread during the Passover meal (Seder)
That I believe is the reason for it.
Peace and kindness,:) :) :)
Fred

Understood Sir, but the question is about Jesus saying beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducee;, meaning their doctrine, not their food, because Pharisees and Sadducees did not eat leavened bread at the Pesach feast, so they were not being warned to keep clear of eating what they ate, but of believing the things that they taught that were not true, and of behaving in ways that did not have God's love as their primary motivation.



M:)RGANITE

Morganite,
Your point is well made and taken.
Thanks,
Fred (arcura)

Understood Sir, but the question is about Jesus saying beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducee;, meaning their doctrine, not their food, because Pharisees and Sadducees did not eat leavened bread at the Pesach feast, so they were not being warned to keep clear of eating what they ate, but of believing the things that they taught that were not true, and of behaving in ways that did not have God's love as their primary motivation.



M:)RGANITE

I agree with you that Jesus was not giving any instructions on food when he spoke of the leaven of the Pharisees.

I feel a little bit guilty for posting in here while I am in mourning and observing shiva... but I'm having trouble sleeping again and I guess this is a bit of a distraction for me. If you're curious what I'm talking about, please read my thread under bereavement:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=22654

Anyways, these are 2 simple questions about wine and spirits. I know that some Christians and most Muslims do not drink any alcohol. My first question is, can they cook with alcohol? Because with most recipes, the actual alcohol evaporates during the cooking.

My second question is for Christians who don't drink alcohol. Didn't Jesus drink? I remember reading in the NT that some people called him a drunkard, and also that he turned water into wine at a wedding. Or maybe what he drank wasn't alcohol as we know it today?

Anyways I'm just really curious about both, so if anyone wants to enlighten me I'd appreciate it, thanks!
There is nothing wrong in drinking wine but drinking it in excess to the point of getting intoxicated is condemned in the Bible. The fact that Jesus turned water into wine when the wine at the wedding feast was depleted shows that wine in itself is fine otherwise Jesus would not have performed that miracle. However the Bible warns about overdrinking as well as overeating or gluttony. The Bible also says a little wine is good for the stomach - so moderation is the key here. Also, when Jesus instituted the last supper with his disciples, Jesus broke unleavened bread and wine (not grape juice) but wine and said the wine symbolized his blood which was to be poured out on behalf of this disciples. So there wine is fine but don't overindulge - that's wrong.

Hello, this is Ernest Norman Paquin author of "Find Me, Eve". Here is a quote of mine;
"They say Betrayal is the worst sin, my guess is; if you haven't sinned any worse than that then have you really sinned at all..." The biggest act of Betrayal not yet committed was aggressively said to me by a fellow American, and what this person said to me was ; "he would kill the Son of God if he had a reason..." meaning the first chance he gets. Terrorists haven't even been documented as saying or planning that and they say God is great. plenty of Americans agree with some of their words but not any of their actions. I believe the majority of people in this world which numbers in the Billions would protect God's son as well as our own children would be a great humanitarian concern. I know for certain we will not let anything happen to God's son or even our own. I know one thing for certain and that is; If some foolish, cruel and ignorant people would kill the Son of God the first chance they get then what do you think they are capable of doing to us who won't? I emphasize once again; "There is no Devil, just people who practice wickedness.

I would like to add another quote of mine aimed at those wannabe Christkillers, and that is;
"Vengeance in this world starts to come around the moment you fail to regret what you did... "

ernestpaquin,
I believe that the greatest sin is faithlessness, next is dishonesty and then betrayal.
I also am certain that there are people alive today who are like those two thousand years ago who killed the Son of God.
Please tell my what your (Novel? Article? Book?) Find Me Eve is about.
I am also an author of some short stories and a novel.
Please and kindness,
Fred

Hello, this is Ernest Norman Paquin, thank you for responding to my inquiry more or less instead of question. I would not kill the Son of God not for any reason, I'll add that; if people want to free themselves from sin than they can join the many millions who free themselves and start over every year on New Years... and no one has to die, you see? Anyway, my book entitled "Find Me, Eve" is available on most online bookstores. It is about time traveling back to the Garden of eden and setting things right. I personally do not believe that the Adam and Eve scenario happened they way it popularly believed. It entered my mind shortly after I asked God "how to make the world a better place" it was revealed as being an accident of scientific nature with time travel being not only the cause but also the answer. I mean even if "the apple" part is true then perhaps Eve did take a bite and turned and said, "this tastes wrong, here Adam you take a bite and tell me why,". Perhaps Radioactive fallout from the time travel accident contaminated everything back then, the apple for example.
If you are interested in knowing more of my story then you can find me through Yahoo, Google and maybe even Roadrunner, in your search type in keywords; Ernest Norman Paquin or Find Me, Eve. Thanks and I hope you enjoy the story.

You have the wrong number.

Sorry Masiella, I am knew to this. Take care.

Sorry, But I don't know about Christianity a lot.

But I am curious to know , Is there any importance of wine and grape juice in christianity?
Or It is just to celebrate or enjoy.

Thank you.

ubharedev ,
Yes, there is of some great importance to wine in Christianity and other religions.
Examples; the Jews believe that wine is "A gift from God that glades the hearts of men."
However, as such it should not be abused but rather enjoyed in moderation.
In Islam alcoholic beverages are forbidden.
In Christianity there are some faiths that forbid it but in nearly all of the denominations wine and spirits should be enjoyed in moderation, following what the bible says not to drink it till the drink get a person tipsy or drunk.
But the bible advises to, "Drink a LITTLE wine for the stomach's sake."
In several denominations wine is served during religious services as symbol of the blood of Jesus Christ who said, Take drink, this is the cup of the new Covenant. This is my blood which will be shed for many. Do this in remembrance of me.
Several denominations understand that literally, such as the Anglicans, the Episcopals, the Lutherans, the Orthodox, and the Catholics.
They believe that it is, when properly consecrated during service” the wine retains its appearance and flavor, but is changed by the Holy Spirit to become the physical blood of Jesus Christ and the person, if worthy, who drinks it is given a grace of God and his/hers sins are forgiven.
I am a Catholic and I firmly believe that.
When I partake of that I have great joy and much thanks that Jesus has actually entered by body and strengthens my spirit.
I hope that is helpful for you.
Merry Christmas!
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

ubharedev ,
Yes, there is of some great importance to wine in Christianity and other religions.
Examples; the Jews believe that wine is "A gift from God that glades the hearts of men."
However, as such it should not be abused but rather enjoyed in moderation.
In Islam alcoholic beverages are forbidden.
In Christianity there are some faiths that forbid it but in nearly all of the denominations wine and spirits should be enjoyed in moderation, following what the bible says not to drink it till the drink get a person tipsy or drunk.
But the bible advises to, "Drink a LITTLE wine for the stomach's sake."
In several denominations wine is served during religious services as symbol of the blood of Jesus Christ who said, Take drink, this is the cup of the new Covenant. This is my blood which will be shed for many. Do this in remembrance of me.
Several denominations understand that literally, such as the Anglicans, the Episcopals, the Lutherans, the Orthodox, and the Catholics.
They believe that it is, when properly consecrated during service” the wine retains its appearance and flavor, but is changed by the Holy Spirit to become the physical blood of Jesus Christ and the person, if worthy, who drinks it is given a grace of God and his/hers sins are forgiven.
I am a Catholic and I firmly believe that.
When I partake of that I have great joy and much thanks that Jesus has actually entered by body and strengthens my spirit.
I hope that is helpful for you.
Merry Christmas!
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)


Hello fred,

Thank you for your reply and to share knowledge.

But is it good to keep wine as religion part.
Well enjoying wine in moderation could be able for richer and the people who learn and know importance of wine and literate/educated people.

Some in some countries like India it is not possible. The people here are very poor and yet not develop and many of them are illiterate. Teaching them once would not do for them. As many of them are drunker. In India if anyone started drinking he almost become drunker. In most of the cases it happens.

And the consequence of this they not take care of family, misuse of money, fall pray to disease, short life, no aim in life, having affairs outside, used to go red light area, debt, suicides etc.

This is what alcohol causes to Indian people. I am from India and know and I have seen all this. So what you say about this. Is this the appropriate religion for Indian people or not.

Well I know that other side of Christianity is there. But you know that one stinked mango can stink the others in a bag. So this concept of wine I don't think it is justified.

On other hand may the Jesus didn't think of the poor while making this statement.

Thank you.

ubharedev,
Using wine in a Christian service means taking just a sip of wine. A few drops of the blood of Christ is as effective as a glassful, probably more effective.
In the Jewish religion of which Jesus was a member wine was a part of life and had been for centuries. If fact Jewish made wine was an important export product for it was considered far better that most other wines.
But yes, in regard to folks from counties like India where they had built up no tolerance to alcoholic beverages such as in India, the Sanidnavian countries, Arabian Countries (where beer was first invented then later banned), and the American Indians alcohol is nearly a poison if not seldom drunk and then in moderation.
It is best if they do not touch it at all.
Peace and kindness,'
Fred

ubharedev,
Using wine in a Christian service means taking just a sip of wine. A few drops of the blood of Christ is as effective as a glassful, probably more effective.
In the Jewish religion of which Jesus was a member wine was a part of life and had been for centuries. If fact Jewish made wine was an important export product for it was considered far better that most other wines.
But yes, in regard to folks from counties like India where they had built up no tolerance to alcoholic beverages such as in India, the Sanidnavian countries, Arabian Countries (where beer was first invented then later banned), and the American Indians alcohol is nearly a poison if not seldom drunk and then in moderation.
It is best if they do not touch it at all.
Peace and kindness,'
Fred

Fred,

Then how you can say that this religion is beneficial for common people and for every country.
And why do one adopt this religion.

Just for thirst of knowledge.

ubharedev,
I'm a member of the Catholic Christian religion because I believe it is the ultimate and true religion of the one almighty God.
Wine is a part of it they way God instituted it.
I do not question His wisdom,
I really don't believe that any person would be harmed if they had a few drops of wine at religious service.
And a person that decides not to have the wine it is OK for they also receive the host which is bread, the body of Christ Jesus.
So you see that having the wine is not an absolute necessity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ubharedev,
I'm a member of the Catholic Christian religion because I believe it is the ultimate and true religion of the one almighty God.
Wine is a part of it they way God instituted it.
I do not question His wisdom,
I really don't believe that any person would be harmed if they had a few drops of wine at religious service.
And a person that decides not to have the wine it is OK for they also receive the host which is bread, the body of Christ Jesus.
So you see that having the wine is not an absolute necessity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


Fred,

One more thing I wanted to ask as your are having lot of studies on Christianity.

After seeing Da Vinci Code - Movie I got stuck with the whole scenario they put in the film.

About Priory of Sion, Marry Magdelon and lot of thing in that.

It made me real contradict as Jesus is a God.

What you say, Is it all truth or myth. Is Jesus is a human or God. What about Mary Magdelon, Sang real.

You can see what I got on web.

Original document of Priory of Sine

The Original Priory of Sion Documents 1956 (http://priory-of-sion.com/psp/posd/regdoc.html)

Priory of Sion (http://www.priory-of-sion.com/)

ubharedev,
I read the book.
It is pure fiction; very entertaining and well written.
It is full of bogus history that is scattered over many centuries.
Jesus did Not marry anyone.
He said His bride is The Church
The legend of the magic vessel did not appear until many centuries later.
Da Vinci would not have place Mary in with the apostles for he used the biblical account of who was at the Last Supper, There were NO women there.
The novel's accounts of the Catholic Church are riddled with errors to help fit the author's story.
There is an excellent book that tells of all the bogus history and errors avaiable. It is called The Da Vinci Hoax.
If truly interested get a copy of that,
It is available from Amazon at this site:
Amazon.com: The Da Vinci Hoax: Exposing the Errors in The Da Vinci Code: Carl E. Olson, Sandra Miesel: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Da-Vinci-Hoax-Exposing-Errors/dp/1586170341)
Also here is a site you might be interested in.
It provides the scientific evidence for the Christmas Star over Bethlehem the birth place of Jesus.
THE CHRISTMAS STAR: (http://ldolphin.org/birth.html)
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ubharedev,
I read the book.
It is pure fiction; very entertaining and well written.
It is full of bogus history that is scattered over many centuries.
Jesus did Not marry anyone.
He said His bride is The Church
The legend of the magic vessel did not appear until many centuries later.
Da Vinci would not have place Mary in with the apostles for he used the biblical account of who was at the Last Supper, There were NO women there.
The novel's accounts of the Catholic Church are riddled with errors to help fit the author's story.
There is an excellent book that tells of all the bogus history and errors avaiable. It is called The Da Vinci Hoax.
If truly interested get a copy of that,
It is available from Amazon at this site:
Amazon.com: The Da Vinci Hoax: Exposing the Errors in The Da Vinci Code: Carl E. Olson, Sandra Miesel: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Da-Vinci-Hoax-Exposing-Errors/dp/1586170341)
Also here is a site you might be interested in.
It provides the scientific evidence for the Christmas Star over Bethlehem the birth place of Jesus.
THE CHRISTMAS STAR: (http://ldolphin.org/birth.html)
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you Fred.

ubharedev
You're welcome.
I'm happy to be of help for you.
I would wish you a Merry Christmas or whatever holiday you celebrate but I don't know what religion you belong to, if any.
But I do wish you a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
Fred

ubharedev
You;re welcome.
I'm happy to be of help for you.
I would wish you a Merry Christmas or whatever holiday you celebrate but I don't know what religion you belong to, if any.
But I do wish you a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
Fred

Same to you Fred.

ubharedev,
Thanks.
I'm going to bed now
It's almost 2 AM here in Montana, USA past my bed time.
If you send me any more of your excellent messages I'll answer them later in this new day.
Fred

With everyone spouting out biblical passages, it just seems obvious to me that God created us and wouldn't want us to harm ourselves. The bible it does state not to be a drunkard or intoxicated. I think a lot of people take the bible too literally then it was meant. I don't think that drinking is bad at all as long as its not too much... Clearly, drinking can cause bodily damage and impair the mind... It has very negative effects on the body if not taken responsibly. Of course God wouldn't want this children to harm themselves!

And also... just thinking... someone mentioned wine is okay since it has lower alcohol content then spirits... thennnnnn what about beer? Because wine has a HIGHER alcohol content then beer. So would it be okay then to drink beer?

Anyway, I believe in God and I drink. Just not overboard... which I would hope people would naturally NOT want to do since it damages brain cells and harms your body in general anyway, despite if you believe in a higher power...

So, using that I would say that using wine in cooking is completely OK.

michele1983,
I agree.
The Jews believe that "wine is a gift from God that gladens the hearts of men" and should not be abused.
Peace and kindness,
Fred