Did Jesus Ever Say He was God? [Archive]

arcura

Mar 13, 2006, 01:51 PM

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible... absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:

mrs.pennell

Mar 13, 2006, 03:33 PM

You ask two different questions in your post. The first question is did Jesus call himself God. Are you referring to the historical Jesus or the Christian Jesus? Scholars have compared the Gospels of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) to determine what plausibly may have been said by Jesus and what the church attributes to him. According to the scholars, Jesus would not have called himself God or the Son of God. For more information on this and the historical Jesus you can go to this website:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/jesussem.html

Or Google THE JESUS SEMINAR. The Jesus Seminar is the group of scholars that did the research to ascertain what could be attributed to Jesus and what is likely not his words. They believe that only 20% of Jesus' sayings in the Gospel are actually his words.

Your second question is "Do you believe what the bible says about Jesus being God?" That is a question of faith. True christians would say yes, they believe what the bible says about Jesus being God.

I will say that the New Testament was written by several different authors, very few of which were alive during the life and times of Jesus. Much of the gospels were actually written a couple of hundred years after Jesus. They reflect the beliefs of the Christian church at the time.

31pumpkin

Mar 13, 2006, 05:03 PM

Yes, I see that reference, but aren't these "authors" just Scholars & Theorists?

My preference of credible sources comes from Theologians with several degrees in Theology.

DrJ

Mar 13, 2006, 06:07 PM

How does the Bible define God? We hear the terms "Father" and "Lord" and others... but what is the clearest definition? What are YOUR definitions of God? I think most of the confusion of God comes in what or who we believe God is. Obviously, we cannot clearly define Him but what are your thoughts?

Does Jesus ever say that He is God? Well, he DOES say that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. That sounds like a pretty clear definition of God to me.

mrs.pennell

Mar 13, 2006, 08:11 PM

Does Jesus ever say that He is God? Well, he DOES say that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. That sounds like a pretty clear definition of God to me.

Actually, that is one of the quotes that The Jesus Seminar has said that Jesus probably did not say.

The Jesus seminar, by the way, is composed of men and women who do have degrees, doctorates in Theology and Religion.

This is a question that will be answered differently on who you ask. True Christian believers do not question the Bible. Those of us who have studied it from an outside perspective, do not take everything to be "Gospel" as it were. Much of my concentration in my religious studies degree focused on Jesus and his teachings. We could spend four years discussing this issue but it will never be "answered" on this forum or any other. It is a matter of religious beliefs versus history.

Beyond all that... regardless of whether Jesus himself said He was the Son of God or not doesn't mean he wasn't. Nor does it mean he was. Either way didn't His message reach the people?

arcura

Mar 14, 2006, 01:15 AM

mrs.pennell,
Of course you are welcome to believe what the Jesus Seminar of self proclaimed experts have to say.
But the rational points are that the Historical Jesus and the biblical Jesus is the same person.
1. There is no proof that the books that were complied into what became the volume we call the Holy Bible wrote any of them long after Jesus rose from the grave.
2. There is no way it can be proven that those who claimed to be witness of Jesus’ activities did not do so.
3. Those who attempt to make such wild assumptions are Johnny come very latelys who are making a name for themselves through sensationalism not accuracy. There is no way they can be accurate or prove it. All they have is scholarly result arrived at based on their belief that the Jesus Christ in the bible is not the Son of God that the authors testified to in those many books which were gathered together to form the Bible.
4. Picture this in your mind. Let’s say that you and several others who are all very interested in a certain subject. Your group gathers from all over the know world all the writings available on that subject. Then you all sit down and spend years studying what was gathered to determine what was authentic and that which could not be. Then you compile all those authenticated works into a book so that others will not need to go through the great effort your group did. All that data in each entry in your new book confirms the other entries. In short they each are a proof of each other while each one offers some additional information that other entries did not provide.
5. The Bible is such a book. There are many volumes of such type efforts concerning various fields or subjects of study that are readily accept because of the confirmation each entry provides for the others. But when come to the holy Bible those that don’t want to believe what is says disregard the fact that the Bible does prove itself far more that the nay sayers can absolutely prove it does not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:) :) :)

mrs.pennell

Mar 14, 2006, 02:06 PM

Indeed we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. :D

arcura

Mar 14, 2006, 03:21 PM

Yes but that did not answer the question.
As the bible records...
Did Jesus say he was God?
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

fredg

Mar 15, 2006, 08:11 AM

HI,
John 3:16.
"For God so loveth the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son....."
Jesus is the Son of God; not God.

arcura

Mar 15, 2006, 12:34 PM

Gredj,
You are hanging you hat on just a verse or two.
When studying the entire Bible the fact that Jesus is both the Son of God and God the Son becomes obvious to the open minded.
It's all there and much more than the 5 I mentioned above.
But just those 5 overturns your statement.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

DrJ

Mar 15, 2006, 01:24 PM

According the Bible, God is the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. If you separate The Father and The Son, then you must separate The Holy Spirit as well. You cannot say that The Holy Spirit is God without admitting that Jesus, The Son, is also God.

31pumpkin

Mar 15, 2006, 03:35 PM

You are wise.

As Christians we believe in the Holy Trinity. Now, Jesus never said he was God.

God is God. The Alpha and The Omega. However, in the Trinity we see that God sent His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for our sins.

Furthermore, in Matthew 28:16-20, The Great Commission says:

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw Him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

There"s more for clarification. Such as in Revelation 12.

M'gosh, I love Bible study!

Starman

Mar 18, 2006, 10:15 AM

arcura

Mar 18, 2006, 11:00 AM

First of all such scholars are ignoring the fact that Jesus said that he was God as in the Scripture passages offered.
Secondly one must keep in mind that Jesus was both and man and God.
There for, regarding the time and situation, Jesus did as his nature indicated or was called for.
As a man He prayed to the Father. As God the Son he performed miracles and taught us about what God and heaven were like. He told us things that only God knew.
In that regard he was the image of the invisible God, just as Scripture tells us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

31pumpkin

Mar 18, 2006, 02:07 PM

I'm not sure what you are saying there Acura:

But, I know the scholars fall short if they are not also Ministers.

DrJ

Mar 19, 2006, 12:57 PM

God is the Holy Trinity. God is the Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the human incarnation of God. Just as we all are. God IS us and God is IN us. Jesus was the Christ, the Savior. He was the Son... just as we are all the Sons of God. We are all created from God and therefore, we are all God.

A sand castle is a sand castle. However, it is created entirely from sand. Therefore, a sand castle IS sand.

31pumpkin

Mar 19, 2006, 03:11 PM

DrJizzle:
You remembered my post!

I correct myself on that saying. It was a while ago since a psych teacher said it.

Neurotics build Castles, Whereas Psychotics live in them. No need to analyze it
Any further. " sand" was mistakenly remembered by me.

I had a very good Pastor, where I moved from in Ft. Lauderdale.

He was gifted, if you know what I mean.

One correction I think to your post,

We, meaning Believers, are not the Sons (or Daughters)of God. We are the
Children of God. Notice the capital letter on the son and daughter words above? It makes the sentence a negative statement.

Jesus was the ONLY Son of God. Notice the capital? That is the Spirit of the Lord. And, we have a Father in Heaven.

This is a start for you. Don't worry. It takes time to mature in the Holy Spirit.

As Born again Christians. Then next I want you to read the New Testament.

I'm not saying you haven't) Start from Matthew and look for all that is said regarding the Spirit. The Spirit of the Lord and such. Look for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Faithful men and women can be given these gifts if they keep reading and going to church to" hear the Word of the Lord".I am gifted myself!
You read about the gifts for now. O.k?
Also-
Words are seeds. They can be very good! Your friend in Christ. Me

Oh! And yes difinetly we are NOT ALL God. Be sure to get that one ! Now relax...

arcura

Mar 19, 2006, 04:27 PM

DrJizzle,
The basic definition of God it that God is perfect in all His attributes.
On top of that he is all powerful, all wise, all understanding, all present, all knowing plus infinite and eternal!!
If you claim that we mortals all are God then you must do so by proving we fit that description.
It will be interesting to see what you come up with IF you attempt that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred:) :) :)

31pumpkin

Mar 19, 2006, 05:28 PM

Better to try a little Rudyard Kipling (IF)!!

arcura

Mar 19, 2006, 05:48 PM

31pumpkin,
And your point is??
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Jonegy

Mar 19, 2006, 07:55 PM

Logically - I suppose the first Gods would have been of the Sun, Water and the Earth (as in soil) - followed swiftly by fertility and other social necessities when man became a herder rather than hunter ending with the numerous collection of Gods of the hindus/egyptians/greeks/romans et al.

It seems that the Jews were the first to parcel this little bunch up into one all knowing "Almighty".

Next comes Jesus teaching to the poor and underpriveleged who because he made a bit of an impact was quickly hi-jacked by the "noble and wise". (I think the highest socially ranked actual desciple was the Tax Collector, wasn't he? ). As this Jesus had probably been dead for 2 or 3 hundred years they needed an "Image".
Luckily, by this time the Romans had taken dominance over the Greeks so the hi-jackers noticing a handy load of golden coloured statues around the place - left by the greeks - mounted then on Crucifixes and Hey Presto.
Small addendum to this story : These statues were of Helios the Sun God - hence your nice little "halo".

Next on the scene is Mohamed ( c.5 A.D.? Not sure and not interested enough to look up the exactities). Who believes in Jesus and his works - but only as a prophet. - He has seen what an unholy debacle the christians have made of things (The rift between RC and Orthodox) and goes back to just one "God". He in turn is declared a prophet and the Muslims are born.

(I'm not 100% sure of the Muslim story and any input by a believer is welcome)

The Christian Church in the meantime plodded on gloriously and became the domain of the aristocracy. ( 1st Son takes over the estates/titles etc; -
2nd Son goes to the Military and if there's a 3rd Son, he goes to the church and depending on Daddy's Rank becomes a Bishop, Archbishop or Cardenal).

I presume this could have been another reason for the rising of the Protestants who... (sorry about the next bit but can't resist the temptation) begat Lutherans, who begat Methodists, who begat Baptists, who begat... and so it went (and goes) on. Think of a clever twist and all you need is someone gullible to believe you and away you go - after all according the British author and traveller Capt. Marryat, who was around at the time, one of the originators of the Mormons was a convisted con artist. Sorry I can't remember which one but it is over 30 years since I read the book.

Finally, the Second Coming. He had better get his dates right, because if he came back now they would lock him up as a raving junky/pot head/crack head etc: Even if he'd arrived in McCarthy's time he'd have been locked up as a raving Commy.

Anyway a final message to you miriads of believers in miriads of religions who have all got one thing in common - only YOU and the believers in YOUR particular sect are going to enter the "Gates of Heaven". Ahhhh! If only your beliefs were true - I would love the see the faces of all those who had been paying their 10% to the Church and got the wrong one!!

Me?? - If you lot are right?? - I'll just pick up my shovel and head on down to the stoke hole with the rest of my pals. It would drive me crackers up there with you lot quoting religion all day.

So - Why am I posting in the Religion Section?? Like you I have also seen the light and am trying to show you the error of your ways. (and save you some time and money into the bargain - after all - I don't pass around the collection tray after my Sermon:D

DrJ

Mar 20, 2006, 03:51 PM

First off, isn't Jesus quoted in the Bible saying that we are no different than He? That we are capable of the same acts as He? (Im sorry, I have studied the Bible but finding a specific verse will be difficult and Im sure that you who are well versed in the Bible (no pun intended) could pinpoint it better than I)

Also, are we not "all powerful, all wise, all understanding, all present, all knowing plus infinite and eternal"? It may not appear so now, but what about when our Earthly bodies parish? Doesn't the Bible also say that once we enter Heaven, we will know these things? Do we just BECOME these all knowing souls or are we now but we are limited by Earthly and Human Laws?

Were we not created from God?

I suppose part of the difference in our thinking is how we define God. Personally, I don't think that God is personified. God is. God is as you claim... God is the positive and the negative... God is Jesus... God is Satan... God is Man... God is all.

That doesn't necessarily mean that all is God... but all is created of God. However, in our purest form, wouldn't we be that which is God?

How can God know the Perfect Hour? God is the Perfect Hour. God doesn't have a brain. He is the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... and Everything in between.

(BTW, I am not, in anyway, disagreeing with any of you. I respect each of your opinions and beliefs. I have never really had the chance to discuss these things because most of my friends are not willing to engage in any of these discussions lol. These are all things that I have pondered and have been swarming around in my head. I really like hearing your feedback.)

(Oh, I also wanted to say that when I capitolize pronouns, I don't mean it in a negative way... I wasn't exactly sure what you were getting at with that pumpkin lol. I capitolize a lot of pronouns to show importance and respect, I suppose.)

To Jonegy,

You bring up some interesting points. I am not well versed in History. You may be right, you may be wrong in some of your points. It doesn't matter to me.

I had thought that God/faith/religion was all just a bunch of bull... a way to control the masses. I was fairly content in those beliefs for some time. But there was one thing wrong with my thinking... one thing I could not figure out. The only thing that I couldn't pin down was a presence within me... the presence of God. You can call it social brainwashing, you can call it psychosis, you can call it whatever you want. But I think that we all feel it. Many of us choose to deny it because it doesn't coincide with our beliefs... but it is there.

My search since I have accepted this is simply to get to know myself better. If you have actually read the posts here, you may have realized that I do not claim any religion. I am certain that religion has been corrupt from the very beginning. It hasn't changed to this day. But its not about reliegion... its about what's in you... who you really are. Its so undeniable now...

STONY

Mar 23, 2006, 08:14 AM

Remember When Peter Called Jesus The Messiah? Jesus Told Him This Was Revealed To Him By The Father In Heaven. Bear In Mind That "emanuel" In Hebrew Means "god Be With Us."

RickJ

Mar 23, 2006, 10:17 AM

Ok, I confess, I've not read all of this so my piping in is just a response to the initial question: "Did Jesus say he was God".

I did search this thread and see that John 20:28-29 is not mentioned:

Thomas said to [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

So there Jesus affirms that Thomas believes correctly: That He is God.

arcura

Mar 23, 2006, 11:17 AM

Jonegy,
With all due respect your version of religious history is a mess. That comes from your statement "I suppose". Supposing causes some of the biggest errors in religion and what it is all about.

Jesus was not hi-jacked by the noble and wise. His followers ranged from ignorant common folks like fishermen, publicans and tent makers to a few people of high rank. While his apostles numbered but 12 his disciples were a great many more.
Many of those IN THEIR LIFETIME founded churches as far way as in Rome itself, Britannia in the West to India in the East and Africa in the south.
By the way Rome was in control of the Holy land long BEFORE the birth of Christ.
From what fantasy did you get the story of the crucifix? That was funny. LOL.

Your date for Mohammed of "5.A.D???" was a little off… Mohammed founded Islam in 622 A.D. You missed it by just 6 centuries.

Christendom was made up primarily of the common people who far out numbered the aristocracy, over several 1000 to 1.

Yes the Church did break up into several sects but please note that they have far far more similarities in belief than differences.

As far as the second coming is concerned when Jesus returns there will be no possibility of the picture you paint.

Your assumption that each different denomination thinks that only their members will go to heaven is not correct. Only a few of the smaller groups claim that.

In your final paragraph you claim to have seen the light. It appears that the light you saw was very dim and flickering.
Rather than showing us the error of out ways, as you claim, you have shown us the errors of your thinking, religious knowledge, and history.
You have a lot of studying ahead of you if you ever want to get it right.
Peace and kindness,:) :) :)
Fred

Stony,
Very good point. Thanks!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Rickj,
Very good point. Thanks!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

kp2171

Mar 23, 2006, 12:29 PM

Your date for Mohammed of "5.A.D???" was a little off… Mohammed founded Islam in 622 A.D. You missed it by just 6 centuries.

Aw come on. Six centuries is nothing in geological time. ;)

Jonegy,
With all due respect your version of religious history is a mess...
..It appears that the light you saw was very dim and flickering.
Rather than showing us the error of out ways, as you claim, you have shown us the errors of your thinking, religious knowledge, and history.
You have a lot of studying ahead of you if you ever want to get it right.
Peace and kindness,:) :) :)
Fred

Reminds me of the saying my cousin states this time of year during Lent (tongue in cheek.. its satire, folks)

"Yeah, way to ruin Easter, Jesus"

arcura

Mar 23, 2006, 09:20 PM

Kp21871,
It please me that you found so much joy in my post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Jonegy

Mar 24, 2006, 09:24 AM

Hi Fred (Arcura)

My "supposing" was based on "supposings" of higher authorities than I.

The whole "New Testament" as such is a "supposition", based on the opinions of theologians, scholars and interpreters.

The earliest known dated papyrus directly translatable to the New Testament (the John Ryllands) was written in 125 - 130 AD and the earliest known "Patristic" writings ( Clement's ) have been dated at 95 AD ( another opinion or supposition? ) and from what I understand of these writings, are purely to found the authority of the "Elders" of the church.

The Greek Empire extended out to modern day India in the east and remains from this era are even being unearthed today, hence, the theory of the Helios is not mine but of archealogists who recognised the similarity of the ancient statues with the early crucifixes.

Sorry about the "typo" error referring to Mohamed. It should have read "500" of course and not "5". I think however that the majority of people know that Mohamed was not a contemporary of Jesus and that the context of my post showed this.

Yes Fred - the common people outnumbered the autocracy by 1000 to 1 much as they do today but it is the those in authority that rule and it is their lives and actions that are handed down through history. ( Do you honestly believe that in a hundred years time, history will show that the British Government went to war against the wishes of 85% of its electorate )... Thinking on, that fellow Clement comes to mind here ;)

Finally Fred, you use the Bible and it's quotations for your "proof". The Bible can be used to say/prove just about anything. "an eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek" being one of the most quoted examples - even the churches own scholars can't agree on how many people wrote the Gospel of St John but apparently it was at least three. In other postings I've seen the theologians, scholars and interpreters as being deluded in their findings... but I must ask you to remember that it was these same people that composed the " King James Version " that is used for so many "quotations".
You may be able to help me with one of those quotations - we were taught in one of those Sunday School stories... " and Jesus said "Where two or more are gathered in my name - there is my church". which leads to one big contradiction ...... Why is so much money being wasted on buildings, their up keep and the clergy ??????

Oh well - Happy days and in the words of that great Irish comedian Dave Allan ...............
"May your God go with you"

RickJ

Mar 24, 2006, 09:31 AM

The earliest known dated papyrus directly translatable to the New Testament (the John Ryllands) was written in 125 - 130 AD and the earliest known "Patristic" writings ( Clement's ) have been dated at 95 AD ( another opinion or supposition? ) and from what I understand of these writings, are purely to found the authority of the "Elders" of the church.

This is precicely why many who are in the know about ancient texts (including non-Christians) consider the writings of the NT more reliable than other ancient texts that have come down to us.

Nowhere in this period do we find other copies of ancient works dated so close to the time the work was originally written.

arcura

Mar 24, 2006, 10:17 AM

Jonej,
Some of those so-called authorities ignore the fact that documents which have survived to this day refer to other earlier documents long lost, in many cases do to deterioration. The copies we have of the gospels are just that. Copies of the earlier originals.
As for your bible quote, I have 8 different versions of the bible and none of them say what you have written. Most of them use these words, "Matthew 18: 20. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." NONE of them say there is my CHURCH.
Jesus was speaking of a personal spiritual presence.
When I think of my parents and discuss them with my brother, though they have passed away they are spiritually there with us, if in no other way than in memory. Do you understand that thought?
Personally I believe that Jesus is with us much more than in memory only.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

fredg

Mar 25, 2006, 07:28 AM

Hi,
I also believe Jesus is with us, in much more than just a memory. He is with us all the time, around us, and giving those of us who have been Baptized, peace and blessings.

arcura

Mar 26, 2006, 10:40 AM

fredg,
Your last line remends me of the quote by Saint Teresa of Avila, "Never worry. Never Fear. All things are passing. Only God matters."
And another, but who coined it I do not know, "If you think you can or if you think you can't, either way you are right."
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Starman

Apr 12, 2006, 02:18 AM

It might seem as if Christians have always accepted the Trinitarian doctrine without questioning it but that is far from being the case. The official Catholic Church decision that Jesus was God was reached approximately three-hundred years after Jesus died and even then there were millions of Christians who did not agree with the Nicene Council. Later they decided to add the holy spirit. In short, their original idea was to have just Jesus and his father as one God then they changed their minds. As for the scriptures that were and are still used to support that idea, they are not what they seem.

For example, the scripture that says "I and the father are one" is often used to prove Jesus was claiming to be God. What Trinitarian scholars ignore is that Jesus also said that we his followers should be one in the same manner as Jesus and the father. Does that mean that every Christian is physically one with every other Christian? Or does it simply mean instead that we should be in agreement as Jesus and God are in agreement?

Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And again the Father of Jesus is called God, not Jesus but his father.

There is also an ignoring of the difference between there Greek word of 'heis' (masc.) which means; 'Numerical one' and 'hen' (neut.) which means means 'Unity - in purpose'. Since the word that John uses is "hen" unity of purpose was meant. (Strong's #1520).
But of course this too is never brought to our attention by those who know.

Pro-Trinitarian scholars also ignore the scripture that that tells us Jesus objected when he was called good and said that only God was good. Surely if Jesus were God he would not have objected to being called good..

They also gloss over the fact that Jesus repeatedly referred to his father as his God.
Which brings up the very interesting question of: Does God worship God? If Jesus is God, how can he worship himself? We aren't just talking of Jesus in the flesh. Even after glorification when he sent his angel to John to deliver the Revelation he spoke about worshiping his God and being in the temple of his God. But of course this also is shunted aside as if of no consequence.

Then there is the mistranslation of the text which says "I am" Which of course is more accurately translated as "I have been" or "I have existed." But this is conveniently ignored and translated as "I am" in order to link it to God's statement to Moses.

We also have that notorious additional text appended to the Gospel of John which mentions Father Son and Holy Ghost. This addition is often cited as conclusive evidence. However, the text is strongly suspected as being spurious or a much later addition by Trinitarians scholars themselves.

But the favorite is John 1:1. which would seem to clinch the argument on the Trinitarian side. Fortunately, there are honest open-minded Christian scholars of the Greek language spoken in Jesus' day. These tell us that the words "was God" should have been translated differently, as for example, "was divine, or "was godlike" Actually, the words are followed by the apostle John's statement that no-one has ever seen God at any time and that Jesus revealed God's personality to men-a statement that can only make sense if Jesus is not God.

Another glaring inconsistency is that Trinity doctrine demands equality among the three godheads. Yet Jesus said that the Father was greater and even the early Christians understood it that way since they referred only to the Father as the only true God.

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Also when Peter answered Jesus' question as to whom did he think he was, and Peter said the Christ, Son of the living God. Jesus responded said that God had revealed this to Peter. He did not say: "Well, yes, but, remember, I am also God." in order to clarify the matter because no further additions to Peter's description were needed.

Here are some links for those who wish to further research the subject:

http://www.mostmerciful.com/notgod--1-7.htm

http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/jesus_god.htm

http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/708

arcura

Apr 12, 2006, 10:54 PM

Please keep in mind that it has taken many years for theological understanding of Scripture to mature. It was an on going effort back then.
Even the immediate apostles of Jesus sometimes did not understand well what said or taught.
Some folks are still struggling with it yet today.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

STONY

Apr 15, 2006, 08:39 AM

magprob

Apr 15, 2006, 09:31 AM

Very good point Dr.Jizzle! Those are all different aspects of GOD along with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Starman

Apr 15, 2006, 10:09 AM

Mr. Starman,
If You Read In Gen. It Speaks Of God Creating Mankind. "let Us Create Man In Our Own Image." The "us" And "our"
In That Statement Make It A Corporate Decision Between The Father, Son And Holy Spirit As To The Creation Of Mankind.

Well Mr. Stony, the plural prounoun "us" and the possessive plural prounoun "our" indicate more than one. So when I read them I understand more than one- God and Jesus. You understand one, God. So I guess we differ on this. Which doesn't mean that I feel that you aren't in good standing with God. It just means that I differ with you on that point.

Furthermore, the Israelites who were God's chosen people for centuries and through whom God revealed himself via inspiration, and the sending of angels were never told that God was three in one.

There Is One Yahweh, Who Created All Things

Ps. 83:18 "Let them know that thou alone, whose name is Yahweh, art the Most High over all the earth" (RSV).

Neh. 9:6 "Thou art Yahweh, thou alone; thou hast made the heavens, the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; ..." (RSV).

Neither do I have any biblical reason to accuse God of misinforming or misleading his people for thousands of years. Neither does the NT say that he did. In fact, the Hebrew scriptures are included in the Bible specifically because they are considered God's Word.
So to say that they are deficient or misleading in any way is a grave error.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; NKJV

BTW

The Elohim part of your argument answered at the following site.

http://halleluyah.org/Elohim%20Singular%20or%20Plural.htm

Excerpt:

"Elohim. G-d, gods, judges, angels.. . The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of G-d. This is seen in the fact that the noun 'elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.. . The term occurs in the general sense of deity some 2,570 times... by Harris, Archer, & Waltke; Moody Press, Chicago; 1980, Vol. 1; Article: Elohim; page 44, #93c).

31pumpkin

Apr 16, 2006, 08:04 PM

The answer to the question I will state again...

Jesus is not God. God is the Alpha & the Omega. In the Holy Trinity there is God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus always was with the Father as implied by one person here with the plural about in God's image. Entonce, the Word became Flesh. Entiende? So Jesus has all power & authority given to him by the Father.( On earth and in heaven) So Jesus is Lord.
The new Testament accounts are 55 years written A.D.
Check it out @ allabouttruth.com

I still love you though. Happy Easter ~

Correction to my previous post:

It's allabouttruth.org ( not. Com)

TxGreaseMonkey

Jun 21, 2006, 01:39 PM

Absolutely, Jesus is God!! No question about it.

galveston

Jun 21, 2006, 08:18 PM

arcura

Jun 24, 2006, 07:13 PM

Txgreasemonkey and galveston,
I agree that Jesus IS God.
And I agree with the very many highly recognized theologians who say the same thing based on their years of study of the Holy Scripture, the culture and politics of the time, plus the history of Jesus time on earth and the archeological evidence of the time and area.
Really good theologians go not confine there studies just of Holy Scripture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Morganite

Jun 25, 2006, 09:02 PM

Jesus never said that he was God. He was careful to say that he was not God the Father,and that he had a subordinate role to the Father which was to do the will of him thet sent me. When the Rich Young Man spoke to him saying Good master ... Jesus corrected him, saying, Why callest thou me good? There is none good save one who is God! Speaking of the time of the seocnd coming he told his apostles that he did not know the time of his return, and neither did the angels of gheaven, but only the Father knew that. On another occasion he said plainly, My Father is greater than I [am].

He separates himself from the Father in substance and person when he says: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.—John 17:3

That the three members of the Godhead are separate individuals, physically distinct from one another, is proven by the sacred records of God's dealings with man. One example was when the Savior was baptized. John recognized the Holy Ghost in the sign of a dove while Christ stood before him in the tabernacle of flesh, and they heard the voice of the Father acknowledging the son:.. . This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.—Matthew 3:17Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28.)

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17.)

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are. (John 17:11.)

These and scores of other passages show the separate personages of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 1:1-3

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;[/I]

Acts 7:54-56

[I] ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on [Stephen] with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

John 5:20 ff.

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 10:27 ff.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.30 I and my Father are one.

John 17:5 ff.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Etc.

M:)RGANITE

Starman

Jun 26, 2006, 10:36 AM

txgreasemonkey and galveston,
I agree that Jesus IS God.
And I agree with the very many highly recognized theologians who say the same thing based on their years of study of the Holy Scripture, the culture and politics of the time, plus the history of Jesus time on earth and the archeological evidence of the time and area.
Really good theologians go not confine there studies just of Holy Scripture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Those who hold a different view have also studied the Bible for many years, the social environment of Jesus's time and location and don't reject archeology as a science as you imply.

BTW
Recognition can't be used as a litmus test for truth. Those doing the recognizing might be in error themselves.

galveston

Jun 26, 2006, 06:23 PM

Maree

Jun 27, 2006, 12:28 PM

When Jesus was talking to his disciples on the Mount of Olives, and they asked him when the end times would come,he said that he did not know but only his Father which was in heaven knew of that time and day. To me,that separates both God and Jesus into 2 separate beings. Wouldn't he have told them if he was also God?

Starman

Jun 27, 2006, 02:03 PM

Actually, Arcura and Morganite are both right. Elohim, found in the first of Genesis is plural, (God said, "let us make man in OUR image".) But notice that the Apostle John tells us plainly that the Son is the actual Creator, and Jesus identifies Himself as the "I AM" who spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I see no conflict.

God created through Jesus. Proverbs chapter 8

BTW
Actually more important than all this is living a Christian life and letting God clarify the issue for all mankind in his own due time.

galveston

Jul 3, 2006, 06:28 PM

Starman

Jul 3, 2006, 09:47 PM

I just thought of something relating to the question about whether Jesus Christ is God or not. Notice that all through the Bible, neither righteous angels, nor righteous men, will accept worship. Jesus accepted worship, which is due to God only. Does this help any?

The Greek word translated as worship is simply a reverence or a behavior of great respect shown high officials, kings, and other persons of high status and does not necessarily carry the meaning that the word worship implies in English.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4352 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
proskunevw from (4314) and a probable derivative of (2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proskuneo 6:758,948
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pros-koo-neh'-o Verb

Definition
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
to the Jewish high priests
to God
to Christ
to heavenly beings
to demons

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/

Morganite

Jul 4, 2006, 09:11 AM

Yes, I see that reference, but aren't these "authors" just Scholars & Theorists?

My preference of credible sources comes from Theologians with several degrees in Theology.

Such as who?

There is usually not the distinctions you would make between the terms. Most thelogians are scholars who are theorists as well, even with several degrees, one of which is likely to be in theology but is not boubnd to be in that subject.

It is not the degree that makes the theologian but the mind, the intellect, the ability to weigh evidence, formulate proposiions asnd test the, and the ability to contrast, and compare, and all other scholarly skills that determrines whether an author acholar or theologian is a theologian.

You will look invain for complete agreement between them. Some will be Wellhausenists, others Kirkegaardist, Bartists, Tillichists, etc. some conservative, others liberal, some bibliolatrists, others transcendentalists, each having modes of thought and puposes that contend with, support, or outstrip that of others in their field. Every theologian is also a published author.

What a thinking person has to do is to decide whether of these cholars is 'credible,' and which are not, and understand why they make their preferences. Accepting everyhthing a person says because ehe or she has a degree in theology is a certain recipe for theological disaster, and so is spurning scholars and authors whose academic credentials are unknown to you. Neither course makes good sense.

M:)RGANITE

Morganite

Jul 4, 2006, 09:13 AM

31pumpkin

Jul 4, 2006, 10:16 AM

Morganite:

I responded further to Mrs. Pennell earlier in this thread. She was referring to "the Jesus Seminar". While she said the group was comprised of scholars with degrees in theology & religion, I commented further that the scholars fall short of answering about Jesus because none of them are ministers in addition to theorists.
I don't think a Christian viewpoint is represented in that "seminar" as there is more attention on disproving Jesus in that seminar.
Yes, I agree that whoever we listen to or consider our religious leaders, should be credible.
My sources were for Mrs. Pennell to consider. All in addition to being theologians are also ministers.
The answer for me still stands. Jesus never SAID he was God. But He was given ALL authority in heaven and on earth. Jesus is Lord in the Trinity. But right now, I believe Jesus is seated at the right of God in heaven and in our hearts and minds.

Morganite

Jul 5, 2006, 04:17 PM

According the the Bible, God is the The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. If you seperate The Father and The Son, then you must seperate The Holy Spirit as well. You cannot say that The Holy Spirit is God without admitting that Jesus, The Son, is also God.

Your statement is what the trinity is according to several extrabiblical Christian Creeds, but you will not find those Creeds in the Bible. There is no statement in the Bible defining a triune God. The nearest thing to a triune credal statement in the 'Johannine Comma' that is a known unauthorised interpolation added to scripture by a later hand to make up for total lack of scriptural support for the Trinity.

M:)RGANITE

Indeed we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. :D

Schweitzer forgot dogs, small children, friends, and bears of all kinds.

M

To Mrs. Pennell,
It appears that theologians spend so much time trying to study God that they never have the time to get to know Him. Very sad really! Do you want to know what God is like? Just read how Jesus dealt with the various people that He ministered to. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Forget the theologians and simply read the Bible with an open mind. It is the most reasonable book ever written!

I disagree with your generalisation. It simply is not so. The Bible is in parts anything but reasonable and that is why Bible scholars can seldom agree, theologians hardly, ministers never, and lay persons can't undertand any of them!

The Bible is a difficult book to know and understand, especially when a modern mindset tries ot make sense of a three thousand year old monograph.

M

The earliest known dated papyrus directly translatable to the New Testament (the John Ryllands) was written in 125 - 130 AD ...

The fragnment to which your post refers is called P52. This small fragment of St. John's Gospel, less than nine centimetres high and containing on the one side part of verses 31-33, on the other of verses 37-38 of chapter xviii is one of the collection of Greek papyri in the John Rylands Library, Manchester. It was originally discovered in Egypt, and may come from the famous site of Oxyrhynchus (Behnesa), the ruined city in Upper Egypt where Grenfel and Hunt carried out some of the most startling and successful excavations in the history of archaeology; it may be remembered that among their finds of new fragments of Classical and Christian literature were the now familiar "Sayings of Jesus".

The importance of this fragment is quite out of proportion to its size, since it may with some confidence be dated in the first half of the second century A.D. and thus ranks as the earliest known fragment of the New Testament in any language.It provides us with invaluable evidence of the spread of Christianity in areas distant from the land of its origin; it is particularly interesting to know that among the books read by the early Christians in Upper Egypt was St. John's Gospel, commonly regarded as one of the latest of the books of the New Testament. Like other early Christian works which have been found in Egypt, this Gospel was written in the form of a codex, i.e. book, not of a roll, the common vehicle for pagan literature of that time.

M

Actually, Arcura and Morganite are both right. Elohim, found in the first of Genesis is plural, (God said, "let us make man in OUR image".) But notice that the Apostle John tells us plainly that the Son is the actual Creator, and Jesus identifies Himself as the "I AM" who spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I see no conflict.

Matthew 3:15-17 - three separate person in three separate places

The transfiguration...

The Garden of Gethsemane (Jn 17)

The cry from the cross - eloi, eloi, lama sabacthani? (My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?)

These and others - "My Father is greater than I am" "Don't call me 'good,' here is none good except One" militate against any conclusion that Jesus and God the father are identical. Jesus did not say "I and the Father is one," but, " I and the father are one." He never said I AM the Father!" etc.

M:)RGANITE

Absolutely, Jesus is God!!! No question about it.
But he is not the Father.

M

Ok, I confess, I've not read all of this so my piping in is just a response to the initial question: "Did Jesus say he was God".

I did search this thread and see that John 20:28-29 is not mentioned:

Thomas said to [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

So there Jesus affirms that Thomas believes correctly: That He is God.

I'd like that transcript read back with the understanding that Thomas questioned whether Jesus had actually been resurrected - 'except I see for myself I will not believe - and when he was convinced - 'he thrust his hands into his wounds' - uttered his high Christological statement, but Jesus confirms only his belief in him as resurrected. Taking that to cover anything else than the fact of the literal resurrection of Jesus from the dead is wayward and unreliable.

Let us at least see what was written in the text and what it actually addresses.

M

TxGreaseMonkey

Jul 9, 2006, 08:45 PM

Jesus=God
Jesus is the creative element of the Infinite God Head. Very glad the question was asked.

galveston

Jul 10, 2006, 04:50 PM

What specific examples can you provide that show angels and men habitually reject worshipful attention?

M

Note my qualifing word "righteous". Satan, fallen angels, and unrighteous men will certainly accept worship. I hope no one out there would attempt to put Jesus Christ in that company. As to examples, I give three off the top of my head. In Acts 28:3 the Apostle Paul rejects worship. In Rev. 19:10 and 22:9 two beings identified as angels refuse to accept worship. The only way that Jesus Christ would accept worship is if He is God. Either that, or He is a liar, and I don't believe that for an instant.

STONY

Jul 11, 2006, 06:46 AM

THERE IS A SCRIPTURE VERSE THAT COMES TO MIND WHERE JESUS STATES, "IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME THEN YOU HAVE SEEN MY FATHER..."

John 14:7
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
John 14:6-8

I THINK THIS IS THE VERSE... STONY

Morganite

Jul 11, 2006, 09:12 AM

I'm not sure what you are saying there Acura:

But, I know the scholars fall short if they are not also Ministers.

You can say you, personally, do not trust them but you cannot say they fall short. They have often - and still do - led the way for ministers to follow in understanding difficulties in the Bible. Many ministers are hopeless when it comes to exegesis and rely heavily on erudite scholars.

M:)

Starman

Jul 11, 2006, 09:22 AM

Note my qualifing word "righteous". Satan, fallen angels, and unrighteous men will certainly accept worship. I hope no one out there would attempt to put Jesus Christ in that company. As to examples, I give three off the top of my head. In Acts 28:3 the Apostle Paul rejects worship. In Rev. 19:10 and 22:9 two beings identified as angels refuse to accept worship. The only way that Jesus Christ would accept worship is if He is God. Either that, or He is a liar, and I don't believe that for an instant.

Either that or you are infusing more meaning onto the original Greek word than the word warrants.

31pumpkin

Jul 11, 2006, 02:05 PM

Morganite:

These scholars noted in the "Jesus Seminar" cannot be trusted. AND also they fall short of convincing me, as a Christian, of any difference between the historical Jesus & the Christian Jesus.
Note how the main author of this seminar is a FORMER professor at the univ. of Montana. And now writing books on their so-called theories. Oh, how very convenient! I'll bet he didn't TEACH this when he was a professor!
Then take a look at the commentator/author writing about this "Seminar".
MINISTER. From Probe Ministries. I don't think this minister who care to use these New Testament scholars opinions at all. AND this minister may even be a scholar himself, right?
Well, the Jesus Seminar wasn't accepted well, according to the author/commentator. But just the thought of a secular person reading something like that & believing it bothers me. What a good excuse to further their disbelief in Jesus, by none other than New Testament scholars to boot!
These scholars are giving a philosophical naturalistic view of the world & deny the supernatural. Well, they might as well throw in how they don't believe that Moses parted the Red Sea too, since they don't believe in miracles!
And Mrs. Pennell's timeline for the N. Testament being written... see page 1, well I don't think she's any where near accurate.
I'm pasting an excerpt from the allabouttruth.org website -

-----------------

"It is generally agreed that the Book of Matthew was the first Gospel written and that it was written between A.D. 50 and 75. Of the four Gospel's, John's is considered to have been the last one written, around A.D. 85. The Book of Acts, a historical account of the establishment of the early Christian church, is believed to have been written by one of the Apostle Paul's associates, around A.D. 62 (near the end of Paul's imprisonment in Rome).

The Pauline Epistles (the Apostle Paul's letters to the early church) were authored between A.D. 50 - 67. The author of Hebrews is unknown, but the book is commonly thought to have been written around A.D. 70. The epistles of the other Apostles were written between A.D. 48 - 90.

The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is believed to have been penned by the Apostle John between A.D. 70 - 95."

RickJ

Jul 17, 2006, 04:42 AM

These scholars noted in the "Jesus Seminar" cannot be trusted.

I agree. They are not "scholars" at all, but a group with an agenda.

Morganite

Jul 17, 2006, 09:11 AM

DrJizzle:

Neurotics build Castles, Whereas Psychotics live in them. No need to analyze it
any further. " sand" was mistakenly remembered by me.

The full quote is:

Neurotics build castles in the air; psychotics live in them; and psychiatrists collect the rent!

M:)

Morganite:

1) These scholars noted in the "Jesus Seminar" cannot be trusted. AND also they fall short of convincing me, as a Christian, of any difference between the historical Jesus & the Christian Jesus.

2) Note how the main author of this seminar is a FORMER professor at the univ. of Montana. And now writing books on their so-called theories. Oh, how very convenient! I'll bet he didn't TEACH this when he was a professor!

3) Then take a look at the commentator/author writing about this "Seminar".
MINISTER. From Probe Ministries. I don't think this minister who care to use these New Testament scholars opinions at all. AND this minister may even be a scholar himself, right?
Well, the Jesus Seminar wasn't accepted well, according to the author/commentator. But just the thought of a secular person reading something like that & believing it bothers me.

4) What a good excuse to further their disbelief in Jesus, by none other than New Testament scholars to boot!

5) These scholars are giving a philosophical naturalistic view of the world & deny the supernatural. Well, they might as well throw in how they don't believe that Moses parted the Red Sea too, since they don't believe in miracles!

6) And Mrs. Pennell's timeline for the N. Testament being written...see page 1, well I don't think she's any where near accurate.

I'm pasting an exerpt from the allabouttruth.org website -

-----------------

A) "It is generally agreed that the Book of Matthew was the first Gospel written and that it was written between A.D. 50 and 75.

B) Of the four Gospel's, John's is considered to have been the last one written, around A.D. 85.

C) The Book of Acts, a historical account of the establishment of the early Christian church, is believed to have been written by one of the Apostle Paul's associates, around A.D. 62 (near the end of Paul's imprisonment in Rome).

D) The Pauline Epistles (the Apostle Paul's letters to the early church) were authored between A.D. 50 - 67.

E) The author of Hebrews is unknown, but the book is commonly thought to have been written around A.D. 70. The epistles of the other Apostles were written between A.D. 48 - 90.

F) The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is believed to have been penned by the Apostle John between A.D. 70 - 95."

1) If you say they cannot be trusted you need to show show evidence of why you say that. If it is merely an unsupported opinion, then it is worthless. Why should anyone believe you rather than the professor without you taking the time and trouble to show where he is wrong and why you are right?

2) What is wrong with being a FORMER anything? Why is being a FORMERN professor at MU 'convenient' an dionstea dof betting he didn't tecah such things when he was a PRESENT professor at MU, why not prove that he did? Innuendo and vagrant ooinion is useless. It tells how you feel, and what your prejudices are, but offers no support at all to your position.

3) Your thinking is very muddled here. You are saying you don't like what they teach but you don't know why, except it makes you uncomfortable. That is unhelpful.

4) There you go again, knocking Bible scholars without posting the reasons for your disagreement. If you want anyone to take notice of your objections you need to set them out carefully so that others can follow your lines of reasoning and test your arguments and theories. It is too easy to come out and say "I'm agin it!" but as you have engaged in debate we are entitled to expect a better standard of contribution than a mere airing of your prejudices.

5) They might well offer a naturalistic explanation, but Moses didn't part the Red Sea. As a Bible reader you will know that "Red Sea" is a mistranslation, and the "Reed Sea" is where the Children of Israel crossed from Egypt to Palestine.

6) You express your thinking that Mrs Pennell is inaccurate but you do not take the time and trouble to show where and how. If she is, expose her inaccuracies so that we can see them and either disagree or agree with you. Expressing disbelief is neither scholarly, ministerial, nor Christian unless you cans show good cause for your judgement. Saying 'Pooh pooh' is not discussion.

A) A Marcan priority is generally agreed, although there are a FEW who believe in a Matthean priority, but there compelling reasons for rejecting that view.

B) The Fourth Gospel is the last , but its date is closer to 95 to 100 AD. Revelations was written after the Fourth Gospel, around 104 AD. No one knows for sure who wrote "John's" Gospel. The book itself claims no author.

C) The Book of Acts is an incomplete record of some of the labours of Peter and Paul. Details of the other ten apostles are not cincluded. It was written by Lucas a Greek physician, who also wrote the third Gospel..

D) Basically the accepted dates, with First Thessalonians being the first extant letter. Dating has to be guessed from internal evidence.

E) The author of Hebrews is unknown. It is almost certain that it was not written by Paul because the Greek is different, the vocabulary is unique, and the whole structure of the book is unPauline.

F) Revelations is the last of the present NT books to have been written, and is dated about 105 AD.

The Bible is much too important to be left in the hands and at the mercy of unskilled and uninspired interpreters as many of the 'ministers' who tout their own versions and interpretations of it are. Bible shcolars work with an honesty that some ministers would do well to imitate. The broadening of understanding of the Bible is thanks almost entirely to Bible scholars, many of them who are also ministers, but little progress has been made towards understanding by ministers who are not scholars, and whose bigotry and prejudices permeate all they say, write, and do. From such turn away!

As for the Jesus Seminar, it is a demythologising movement that aims to peel back what Bultmann et all call 'myths' imposed by the faith community to bolster their faith in the supernatural abilites of one who had become accepted as the Son of God, the divine redeemer and saviour. While such an approach seems strange to believers of a different order, it is not entirely an empty or futile exercise, but part of the search for the person behind the stories. Provided that you are sufficiently secure in your own faith position, you might benefit from some of their discoveries and theories without starting a war against them. At the very least, if you disagree, you ought to set out your stall with care and attention to detail so that others can follow your reasoned and sensible arguments against their positions. However, you must not assume that everything they say is wrong, or you could be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

As Paul said, "Test everything and hold on to what is true!" His advice is as good today as it was back then

M:)RGANITE

It seems that the Jews were the first to parcel this little bunch up into one all knowing "Almighty".

You think? In your worm's eye view of mankind's rekigious experience, why did you leave out Akhenaton's monotheism??

M:)

Jonegy

Jul 17, 2006, 02:39 PM

You think? In your worm's eye view of mankind's rekigious experience, why did you leave out Akhenaton's monotheism? ???

M:)

Had a quick look on Wikipedia - yes it "appears" he did initiate proto-monotheism - not being an egyptologist or theologist this fact hadn't come across my path although I had remembered his wife was Nefertiti.

Re "my worm's eye view" -

I bow to the "expert" - and we all know the definition of an "expert"

galveston

Jul 17, 2006, 04:09 PM

hashyash

Jul 18, 2006, 09:59 AM

I believe that Jesus is God
Jesus is God manifested in the Flesh . 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus DID say I and my father are one. John 10:30

Morganite

Jul 18, 2006, 01:03 PM

Remember When Peter Called Jesus The Messiah? Jesus Told Him This Was Revealed To Him By The Father In Heaven. Bear In Mind That "emanuel" In Hebrew Means "god Be With Us."

A slight but significant correction. Immanuel means: "God with us" or "with us is God." "God be with us" is a prayer for the Presence, not a statement of Presence.

M:)

I believe that Jesus is God
Jesus is God manifested in the Flesh . 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus DID say I and my father are one. John 10:30

'Are' is plural. He did not say "I and my father IS one."

He did not say "I AMthe father."

He said "My father is greater than me" "Why do you call me good? There is only one good and that is God!"

Etc.

M:)

Had a quick look on Wikipedia - yes it "appears" he did initiate proto-monotheism - not being an egyptologist or theologist this fact hadn't come across my path although I had remembered his wife was Nefertiti.

Re "my worm's eye view" -

I bow to the "expert" - and we all know the definition of an "expert"

I assure you that I am not under pressure!

:)

M:)

Morganite

Jul 18, 2006, 02:28 PM

Morganite,
I understand your answer when you assert that Jesus never SAID that He is God. Aren't we missing something in this discussion? The concept that the Eternal Son laid aside His attributes of Diety(omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience) when He came to earth as a human baby? He read the Scripture "The spirit of the LORD is upon me - - -" announcing that it had just been fulfilled. Jesus operated in the power of the Holy Spirit, independent of His diety powers. Otherwise, we could never hope to emulate Him, which thing He consistently taught we should do after we are filled with that same Holy Spirit, as in Acts 2:4 and later recorded occurrences. Just because He never claimed to be the Father, or the Holy Spirit does not mean that He is not Diety. He has been given all power and judgment, and when the last rebel has been put away and proper order restored to the universe, He will turn everything back over to the Father. (I'm sure you can find all the relevant verses.) I like some of your points!

Galveston,

You are quite correct, and your reference to kenotic Christology supplies what once was an essential element in our quest for understanding of the differences between God the Father and God the Son, and militates cogently against any view that they are or could be the same Person.

Kenotic Christology, which you appear to understand well, is a doctrine of the person of Christ that seeks to understand him in terms of a kenosis or self-emptying of the Logos, whereby it was able to manifest itself in the finite life of a human being. Advocates of kenotic christology are uneasy about theological developments except as they refer to the humanity of Christ, an idea for which they try to give place in their thinking.

Kenoticism is a kind of mediating theology incorporating the traditional incarnational understanding of Christ, but modifying it in such a way as to safeguard against those docetic tendencies that seem to have dislodged the classical christology of past centuries.

One of the earliest and most ardent promoters of kenoticism was Soren Kierkergaard whose parable of the incarnation contains not merely a krypsis (hiding) but a genuine renunciation or emptying (kenosis). The word kenosis is an allusion to Paul's (some scholars think it is pre-Pauline) famous hymn in praise of Christ:

"Christ Jesus, though he was in the form of God, did not count on equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (heauton ekenose), taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth, and under the earth, and evefry tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."
[Philemon 2.4-8]

Proponents of kenoticism rely heavily on this passage and, to a lesser extent, on 2 Corinthians 8.9:

"For you know the grace of our Lord jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich"

Probably the most persuasive argument for kenoticism came from the pen of Gottfried Thomasius in his "Christi Person und Werk." He subtitles it 'The Exposition of Evangelical-Lutheran Dogmatics from the Centre-point of Christology.' It might be available in translation.

Thomasius explicitly separates himself from Schleiermacher's position that the person of Christ is to be understood as the completion of the creation of humanity, and even more strongly from Strauss's view that it expresses the general truth of the unity between the divine and the human. Both these views are unsatisfactory because they fail to make adequate distinciton between creaturely being and the being of God, although Thomasius does not go as far as Kierkegaard in thinking that there is an infinite qualitive difference between the divine and the human. He holds that man has the capacity for receiving God and being penetrated by God, and he claims that such affinity is a necessary presupposition for a doctrine of the incarnation.

Thomasius also sood firmly behind the position of Lutheran christology, the dominant tradition of which maintained that akhtough the Logos infinitely surpasses in knowledge, life, and action the bounds of a merely human existence, yet in the mystery of the incarnation, the Logos was wholly present in Christ and nothing of the Logos remained outside of him.

This is in direct opposition to Calivinist christology that during the incarnation the Logos also existed outside of Christ (illud extra Calvinisticum). Thomasius believed that if one admitted such an existence of the Logos outside of Christ, then one would get into the difficulties of a dual personlaity. For only if one holds - as othodoxy is supposed to require - that though there are two natures in the incarnate Christ, there is a unitary person, and this is the divine person of the Logos, is dualism avoided. If you can perform the mental gymnastic required to understand what the argument is about, then it is difficult not to give Thomasius the point!

For if the person of the Logos is the person of Christ, then we not are forced to postulate a double personality? But how can the infinite Logos be reduced or compressed (speaking metaphorically, but earnestly) into the finite compass of the human Jesus? At this point we recognise Thomasius' problem as being the problem of all christologies, and the language must almost certainly always be metaphorical. How can the infinite be revealed in the finite? If we are to think of the infinite making itself known in and through the finite, whether in an incarnation or in some other way, therem mustn be some reductions, some dimming down, some filtering, some contraction of scale, some kenosis.

Then we are left to ask. If such a dimming down, reduction, or emptying actually took place, must this not have resulted in the failure to reveal all? If the divinity of the Logos has was so diminished how could the infinity of God be revealed?

In the incarnation it is claimed that God - the Logos - divested hmself of some of his divine attributes, particularly omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence in order that the unchangeable and invisible Almighty God could relate to the world as a human being, indistinguishable from other all human beings. This is an insurmountable difficulty unless Jesus Christ is who he revealed himself as being, which is not God the father ("My Father is greater than I"), but the Son of God: the Son who had emptied himself of the glory and power he had shared with his Father at Creation and who prayed in Gethsemane that they might be restored to him.

It is evident that the incarnate Lord was no omnipotent man, no omniscient man, no miracle worker, but one who exercised no other lordship than the ethical one of truth and love. If God the Father had emptied himself of the divine attributes that the Son temporarily laid aside, then he would have ceased to be Almighty God. Christ's whole exercise of power was absorbed in his world-redeeming activities.

Kenoticism is not without its cruitics, and rightly so. The major assault to the Thomasian view was best voiced by Sanday of Oxford, who acknowledged the dostrine was not without merit, but objected that it made too much of a relatively small section of biblical material and ignored the major NT teachings about the person of Christ. A more damaging view came from Rischl who pointed out the difficulty of seeking to maintain that the essential or immanent attributes of the divine Logos [absolute power, truth, holiness, and love] are retained in the incarnate Christ, while the relative attributes [omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence] are divested, because, he argues, 'even if omnipotence and the like are only relative attributes of God and of the divine Logos - relative, that is, in relation to the world - is not this very relation the limit within which alone any knowledge of God is possible?Moreover, the conception of the divine Logos has its origin exclusively in the relation of God to the world, so that we cease to conceive the Logos of God in the way which the conception itself requires, if in any particuilar case we think away his whole relation top the world."

Others observed that Thomasius seemed to be laying claim to a detailed 'inside' knowledge of the pre-existent Word, and if one could know so much of the Logos prior to the incarnation, what was then the point of the incarnation or what fresh revelation could it bring?

Kenoticism has had its best days. It flowered briefly in Germany, and later in England, and had a brief appearance under the redoubtable scholar Bishop Charles Gore, onetime Bishop of Oxford. although Gore later abandoned it, since when it is little more than a talking point in which theologians and shcolarly ministers take an historical interest, while non-scholarly ministers and intersted laypersons struggle to get their heads aorund it, and all it entails, suggests, and are all equally disappointed when they eventually come up against its major obstacles and contradictions. Those who still maintian that kenotic christology is the way to go have chosen a poor hill to die on.

Thank you, Galveston, for stirring up in me a remembrance of interesting things past.

M:)RGANITE

arcura

Jul 19, 2006, 10:59 PM

The posts on this have been very interesting to me. There has been a lot of thought involved in several of them.
While I do believe that Jesus Christ is both the son of God and God the Son part of the holy trinity, I find other points of view to be thought provoking and very interesting to see how others believe and approach that belief.
I hope such post continue on this subject: Did Jesus say He is God and in what ways did He indicate such?
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

RickJ

Jul 20, 2006, 05:19 AM

Morganite disagrees (with this (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religion/did-jesus-ever-say-he-god-22727.html#post103781)): Jesus did not say he was God - Thomas called him God. The argument from silence that because there is no record of what Jesus said in reponse is unsatisfactory. Many thungs will have been said at that tinme of which there is no record come down.

I can't be sure if the disagreement is that it's a bad argument or that Jesus is not God, so I'll add to it.

Since the NT seems to imply it, the earliest Christians discussed it at length and agreed that he IS. It is a staple of Christianity, period.

So no, Christ did not say "I am God and I mean that literaly". Christians and non-Christians alike must agree with this

... so it's fine for one to argue that He is not God, but that's not any different than a Christian saying Ganesha is not a God.

Now, if one who calls himself Christian says "Jesus is not God", then that is material for a thread all by itself...

... and regarding "record coming down", that's an easy one. How far back can we go to see "Christian" teaching that he is NOT God? I know of a group that started in the 1800s that has become quite popular... but up to then the "variety" of Christians are in agreement.

Hope12

Jul 31, 2006, 11:16 AM

Hello,
That is a very popular belief in our time. But did you know that this is not what was taught by Jesus and his disciples? So, we worship the One that Jesus said to worship.’ ‘When Jesus was teaching, here is the commandment that he said was greatest.. . Mark 12:28-30 28 Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’

.Jesus never claimed to be equal to God. He said.. . John 14:28 “28 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am”
Matt. 24:36 “36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” For any who believe Jesus is God, perhaps you can explain it to me.’ ‘If the Son is equal to the Father, how is it that the Father knows things that the Son does not?’

A person who is really seeking to know the truth about God is not going to search the Bible hoping to find a text that he can construe as fitting what he already believes. He wants to know what God’s Word itself says. He may find some texts that he feels can be read in more than one way, but when these are compared with other Biblical statements on the same subject their meaning will become clear. It should be noted at the outset that most of the texts used as “proof” of the Trinity actually mention only two persons, not three; so even if the Trinitarian explanation of the texts were correct, these would not prove that the Bible teaches the Trinity. Consider the following:

Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to Him : Read the Bible!

(Matthew 3:17) Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

(John 8:42) Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.

(John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

(1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

(1 Corinthians 15:28) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

A voice from the heavens that said: ‘This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.’”—MATTHEW 3:17.
Here are some scriptures that those who try to teach that Jesus is God. Each one of these scriptures point to the fact that Jesus Christ is God’s Son and they are two separate beings. Those who try to prove their false teaching use these scripture. If anyone want to go through them one at a time, and discuss why and how they prove that Jesus is Not God, I will be happy to do so. Just let me know. All of these scriptures prove that Jesus is not God.

Genesis 1:1:
Genesis 1:26:
Deuteronomy 6:4:
Isaiah 7:14:
Isaiah 9:6:
Isaiah 43:10:
Isaiah 43:11
Isaiah 44:6:
Micah 5:2:
Matthew 1:23:
Matthew 3:16,
Matthew 28:19
John 1:1:
John 1:18
John 1:23
John 2:19
John 5:18
John 8:58
John 10:30
John 14:9:
Acts 20:28:
Romans 9:5
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
2 Corinthians 13:14
Philippians 2:5, 6
Colossians 2:9
1 Timothy 3:16
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:6
Hebrews 1:8
Hebrews 1:10-12
1 John 5:7
1 John 5:20
Revelation 1:11
Revelation 1:17
Revelation 22:12
Revelation 22:13
Just what I have understood from the Bible.

Take care,
Hope12

arcura

Jul 31, 2006, 08:18 PM

That was a lot of work but I still believe in the Trinity - Three persons in ONE GOD.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arucra)

galveston

Aug 2, 2006, 07:29 PM

Morganite,
Point #6: The Bible should have said "Reed Sea", not "Red Sea". Does it really make a difference? How deep is the Reed sea? Deep enough to drown an army? I know that conventional wisdom says that Egypt could not have lost its king and army at that time, but when you take into consideration that several of the kings of Egypt certainly could have reigned concurrently rather than consecutively, it becomes easily possible. Egypts history does (I believe) show a time when one king reigned for a long time, followed by a very short reign, then followed by a queen ruling over a much reduced Egypt. I'm not sure you are deyning any miracle at the sea or just correcting a name.

Morganite,
Your enlightenment on kenoticism is good, but something is being overlooked in most, if not all, of this whole discussion. What is being left out is the Holy Spirit. Jesus claimed the complete anointing of the Holy Spirit (who proceeds from the Father). Every work that Jesus did and every thing that He taught was by the Holy Spirit. When we understand that, all of the seeming conflicts that have been pointed out about kenoticism disappear. Jesus was the first vessel that the Holy Spirit was poured into in that fashion, but that same Holy Spirit was later poured into the members of the first Church at Jerusalem, enabling them to continue the ministry that Jesus (The Son of Jehovah) began.

arcura

Aug 2, 2006, 11:25 PM

Galvaston,
AND the Holy Spirit resides in all who accept him.
Peace and kindness to all.
Fred (arcura)

STONY

Aug 3, 2006, 10:21 AM

Ah Yes, Let's Examine The Word Expert Phonetically. First Of All An "ex" Is A Has Been And A "spert" Is A Drip Under Pressure... lol.
Thanks For Bringing That Joke To Mind. Haven't Told It In Years But It Still Brings A Smile To This Old Face.

galveston

Aug 3, 2006, 06:13 PM

Arcura,
Yes, absolutely, the Holy Spirit does indeed fill those human vessels who will approach The Father, through the Son, even in this late day.
You know, I re-read the origingal question and realized that there were actually two questions asked, not one. No wonder we have so many divergent views!

arcura

Aug 3, 2006, 07:42 PM

galveston.
That was very observant. I wonder how many others noticed that.
Thanks.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

wbminyard

Aug 7, 2006, 08:48 AM

One answer to this question was with Godly Wisdom.
Another answer to this question was with secular confusion.
Since we are talking about eternity, it is important to know the difference...

arcura

Aug 7, 2006, 06:50 PM

Yes it is important to know the difference,
But I'm at a loss, to which 2 answers are you referring?
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Morganite

Aug 11, 2006, 01:21 PM

xeurobebex

Aug 11, 2006, 01:40 PM

Jesus never said he was GOD n yes he said he was the light n all that but did he not always talk about his father ? He never said he was GOD he said he was the son of GOD... but when his talkn his talkn for one person because it is believed that jesus and the holy spirit are one with god

arcura

Aug 11, 2006, 02:45 PM

xeurobebex

Aug 11, 2006, 02:55 PM

.. jesus never said he was GOD he said he was the son of GOD... and it is said that jesus n the holy spirit r one with god

Morganite

Aug 12, 2006, 10:11 AM

To Mrs. Pennell,
It appears that theologians spend so much time trying to study God that they never have the time to get to know Him. Very sad really! Do you want to know what God is like? Just read how Jesus dealt with the various people that He ministered to. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Forget the theologians and simply read the Bible with an open mind. It is the most reasonable book ever written!

Your statement about theologians intrigues me. Which theologians do you have in mind when you say that theologians never have the time to get to know Him? Your statement implies that no theologian ever knew or does know God, which is an extraordinary thing to say unless you have insight into the mind and faith of every theologian that ever was and who now is.

What is your objection to theologians, presumably also to theology, and how is it that you do not know of one theologian who has an active fervent and living faith in God?

I know many theologians who would be affronted by the impudence of your suggestion that because they are theologians they cannot know God, and by the implication that neither do they know the Bible.

What is the basis for and justification of your false judgement?

M:)RGANITE

galveston

Aug 12, 2006, 03:20 PM

Starman

Aug 16, 2006, 10:42 PM

OK Morganite,
Maybe it is only the "liberal", "progressive" theologians who get the press. How many times have I read that this or that theologian has shown how certan parts of the Bible are incorrect, that history "proves" that various accounts could not have happened? Was not "higher criticism" used as an excuse to delete the miracles from the Bible? (The Egyptian army could not have drowned in the [Reed] Sea, as it was very shallow, Jesus did not feed a multitude from a sack lunch, etc.) Please excuse me if I don't have a lot of confidence in theologians in general. I concede that there are likely some who are sincere followers of Jesus Christ, but I'm not going to trust theologians just because they say they are theologians. Were not Wescott and Hort theologians? I have major problems with the results of their meddling with Scripture.
I apologize if I have offended any followers of Jesus Christ who happen to be theologians. I still stand by my statement that if you want to know what the Bible says, just read it for yourself. If read in an attitude of prayer, you will gain understanding.
Isa 28:10
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
(KJV)

Just recently on TV, theologians were invited to comment on Bible-based films Jesus of Nazareth during intermissions. I was expecting a commentary that would increase my appreciation for the biblical account. After all, why else would theologians be invited to comment on such a film? Unfortunately all they did was challenge the historicity, of the account, the identity of the authors of the account, and the veracity of what was said in the account concerning Jesus' life. The existence of even Jesus himself was challenged. Whether those who invited these scholars knew what their intentions were when they accepted the invitation I don't know. I do know that the interviewer seemed bewildered at first at their commentary and later his bewilderment seemed to turn into silent disgust.

arcura

Aug 16, 2006, 11:20 PM

Starman,
There are theologians and there are theologians. Most are Scripture supporters but unfortunately there are many who are Scripture detractors or attackers.
I'll listen to the first group from whom I like learn something more about my Christian faith. Regarding the second group I either ignore them, or walk away from them, or give them the old fashion raspberry, or try to sift them out like straw and trash from the wheat.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Morganite

Aug 18, 2006, 11:07 AM

just recently on TV, theologians were invited to comment on Bible-based films Jesus of Nazareth during intermissions.

I was expecting a commentary that would increase my appreciation for the biblical account.

After all, why else would theologians be invited to comment on such a film?

Unfortunately all they did was challenge the historicity, of the account, the identity of the authors of the account, and the veracity of what was said in the account concerning Jesus' life.

The existence of even Jesus himself was challenged.

Whether or not those who invited these scholars knew what their intentions were when they accepted the invitation I don't know.

I do know that the interviewer seemed bewildered at first at their commentary and later his bewilderment seemed to turn into silent disgust.

Just recently on TV, theologians were invited to comment on Bible-based films Jesus of Nazareth during intermissions.

Which theologians, and from where? There is no such animal as a one-size-fits-all theologian, jkust as there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all theology. You need to be particular if you are inviting comments on particular theologians, and should remember that the ones you saw cannot be taken as representative of all theologians.

I was expecting a commentary that would increase my appreciation for the biblical account.

Theologians are not commentary writers. Theologians consider the meanings of events and statements made by characters in the Bioble. What you were looking for were not theologians but exegetes, or perhaps even homileticists who wouod interpret the gospels in the same way that you approve. But iof you only want confirmation that your view is correct, why oisten to anyone else' view in the first place?

Did the program introduce them as 'theologians' or are you guessing that they were theologians?

After all, why else would theologians be invited to comment on such a film?

There are hundreds of reasons why theologians - if that is what they were - would be invited to comment on a film about Jesus of Nazareth. You can not talk about Jesus wiothout theology. He is central to that form of theology called Christology, so who better to provide their individual theological insights than theologians? Christian theology busies itself with finding out who Jesus was, what he did, and what his life and work mean. The mere fact that there are so many conflicting Christian theologies, denominations, and sects is a sure sign that the work of theologians is not finished.

Unfortunately all they did was challenge the historicity, of the account, the identity of the authors of the account, and the veracity of what was said in the account concerning Jesus' life.

What is unfortunate about perceptions being exposed to what you describe as challenging? Only those not sure of their ground are afraid of 'challenges' because it exposes thier weakness. If a theological position is weak then it needs to be challenged because a weak position can never be right. If your faith cannot withstand challenge' you might be in the wrong place, and challenges might help you find the right place.

The gospels challenge each other on historical matters, some of them are far apart, so what is wrong with dialogue that attempts to restore the proper historical background and context?

When disparate accounts of the same biography are put side by side is it not sensible to recognize that one or more of them is unaccurate? Is not the attnmpt to establish which, if any, is accurate to be lauded rather than brickbatted?

The existence of even Jesus himself was challenged.

As the person and life of Jesus is central to any film about the life of Jesus of Nazareth that claims to define his life, person, and mission, etc. why not deal honestly with what is known, what is believed, and what is hoped for? A complaint about theologians or exegetes doing their work is pathetic. That is what they do. Some of their findings tyou will agree with, but with some of their conclusions you will be at variance. That is how life unfolds.

There is no special of science for Christians that lets them escape the attention of researchers and thinkers. What Christian who thinks would even want his faith to be excluded from the probings of good minds. That is unless such Christian was afraid that his illusion would be shattered. True faith is not a position, not the product of an illusion, and will not be shaken unless it is shown to be false. Ony those who suspect their positions are weak will be upset by hearing disagreement. Those strong in faith will not be troubled.

Whether those who invited these scholars knew what their intentions were when they accepted the invitation I don't know.

If they did not know the positions of the invited 'theologians' then they should not be working for the TV program. They employ researchers to find out the backgrounds, qualifications, and perspectives of program guest panelists.

Unless you have some powerfully copelling evidence that their 'intentions' were other than to respond honestly and in line with their understandings, then you should tell us. Do you suggest that only those known to be in full agreement with the subject as presented should be invited? If so you reveal your fear about your beliefs.

I do know that the interviewer seemed bewildered at first at their commentary and later his bewilderment seemed to turn into silent disgust.

Either he was bewildered or he was not. How does one 'seem bewildered'? Did he say, "I am bewildered!" What DID he say before he became speechless that leads you to say he was bewildered?

How do you determine what a person if feeling if he does not speak? Mindreading?

Theologians serve a useful purpose. Without theologians there would be no Christianity. Jesus was a theologian, Paul was a theologian, and your pastor uses theology, but only the kind that agrees with him, and you use theology whether you know it or not, so, hey, quit knocking the theologians.

Thank them that they dare (despite the rack, stake, gallows, yellow press and opprobrium) speak their minds according to their consciences and share their thoughts and findings with the rest of the world and do so when they are criticised, their books burned, their lives taken, and life made unpleasant. That is what Jesus would have Christians do.

Actually, Arcura and Morganite are both right. Elohim, found in the first of Genesis is plural, (God said, "let us make man in OUR image".) But notice that the Apostle John tells us plainly that the Son is the actual Creator, and Jesus identifies Himself as the "I AM" who spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I see no conflict.

Jesus identifies Himself as the "I AM" who spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.

Jesus said, 'before Abraham was I am.' He does not mention Moses or the Burning Bush. The verb to be 'I am' is 'eimi' and means, to be, to exist, to happen, or to be present. While some English versions of this text transform eimi into I AM, the text itself does not support this emendation. It has Jesus saying that he WAS, that he existed, before the time of Abraham, and any extension of his statement could prove unsafe. The form of 'am' used by Jesus indicates that he was pre-existent as John suggests in John 1.1.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

acoltrin

Oct 3, 2006, 11:51 AM

I agree with fredg, Jesus is the Son of God. Mary his mother and God his Father. He hung on the cross and asked his "Father to forgive them for they know not what they do".
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is Elohim. All mankind are his children. Jehovah in the Old Testament time, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as Lord, is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. Thus the scripture says that "God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen 1:1), but we know that it was actually the Lord (Jesus) who was the creator(John 1:3,10) or as Paul said God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph.3:9)

Morganite

Oct 3, 2006, 04:46 PM

Jesus said "I and the Father ARE one" he did not say, "I and the Father AM one." And that reflects the separation of the persons of the Father and the Son. He did not say, "The Father? I AM the Father!" or anything like unto it.

beautifuldiva

Oct 3, 2006, 06:30 PM

Does the Bible agree with those who teach or believe that Father and the Son are not separate and distinct individuals?

Without even having any sort of knowledge on this subject, the idea of Jesus and God being the same doesn't add up... this would mean that God himself would have had to come down to the earth and be born, grow up for 33 years and die on a torture stake... and if its more scriptures you're looking for here are some...

Matthew 26:29, RS, "Going a little farther he (Jesus Christ) fell on his face and prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thout wilt.'" (If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Fathers will.)

John 8:17, 18, Rs: "[Jesus answered the Jewish Pharisees:] In your law it is written that he testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself and the Father who sent me bears witness to me." (So, Jesus definitely spoke of himself as being an individual separate and destinct from the Father or God.)

John 17:3, RS: "[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life , that they know thee the only true God ["who alone art truely God", NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as "the only true God.")

John 20:17, RS: "Jesus said to her [Mary Magdeline], 'Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (So to the ressurected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find teh Father addressing the Son as "my God.")

There are many more but if I did them all, it would take up probably a few pages... lol so

magprob

Oct 3, 2006, 06:55 PM

I have dug deep and long and a winding road it has been but I have found the answer to this and many other religious questions that have befuddled mankind since the beginning of recorded history. It is rumored that even the Pope has been diligently studying these lost scriptures and is now prepared to issue a church decree that the truth is at hand. Take this brother, may it serve you well:

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.
I'm crying.

Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.
Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday.
Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

Mister City Policeman sitting
Pretty little policemen in a row.
See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky, see how they run.
I'm crying, I'm crying.
I'm crying, I'm crying.

Yellow matter custard, dripping from a dead dog's eye.
Crabalocker fishwife, pornographic priestess,
Boy, you been a naughty girl you let your knickers down.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

Sitting in an English garden waiting for the sun.
If the sun don't come, you get a tan
From standing in the English rain.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob.

Expert textpert choking smokers,
Don't you thing the joker laughs at you?
See how they smile like pigs in a sty,
See how they snied.
I'm crying.

Semolina pilchard, climbing up the Eiffel Tower.
Elementary penguin singing Hari Krishna.
Man, you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allan Poe.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob.
Goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob g'goo.

We will never agree on this one so for GOD'S sake, please let it go! Let your own belief on this one be your truth.

Morganite

Oct 3, 2006, 09:38 PM

Morganite, that is three person in one God just like you are a trinity of mind, spirit and body all in one being.

xeurobebex, perhaps you had better re-read the original post again. Jesus did say that he and the father are one being, that is God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jesus never said that he was God the father. He distanced himself from the Father several times, so there can be no mistake. On no occasion did Jesus say that he and the father were one being.

There is no model of the trinity that works, and body, mind, spirit no more represents the godhead than does the trefoil. Why not stay with what the Bible actually says? It sdoes not support trinity, but shows God and Jesus as individuals separate and distinct, and with one clearly submissive to the other. The Filoque is a further matter for resolution that cannot be reconciled to the trinity teaching. It just is not there.

M:)

This is precicely why many who are in the know about ancient texts (including non-Christians) consider the writings of the NT more reliable than other ancient texts that have come down to us.

Nowhere in this period do we find other copies of ancient works dated so close to the time the work was originally written.

Thew ritings of the NT are no more rleiable than other documents of the same period. There are no extant actual texts dating from the NT period, and extremelym few fragments in the following few centuries.

I recommend you to type 'rylands fragment' into your serch engine to be directed to the John Ryland Library and Manchester, England, to a page where the fragment - and it is only a fragment - of John is displayed front and back. You will see for yourself - evenif you are inable to read it - that its use to establish the authenticity of any copy ancient or modern of the Gospel of John is severely limited.

There are more than 2,400 differing versions or variations of the gospel of Mark. Establishing the original text is a task that no one has yet accomplished, and it might be too late to ever do it.

M:)RGANITE

acoltrin

Oct 4, 2006, 09:47 AM

Well said beautifuldiva! You are very right. There are so many references of the Son and his Father in Heaven. It is only common sense. "God so loved this world that he gave his only begotton son." God loves us so much that he sent his son to this earth to be our Savior. We needed a Savior and an atonement, and what a beautiful gift he gave us.

beautifuldiva

Oct 4, 2006, 01:16 PM

Exactly acoltrin! Lol I see we are on the same page here. Not only does it not make sense to believe in a Trinity... it would have been meaningless and everything else in the Bible would have been for no reason. Jehovah did not have to send his Son to save us. He chose to do so because as the verse reads he loved the world so much.. imagine the pain he could have avoided if all he had to do was undo it all himself. Why not just destroy it all and forget it? Or start over? Because he believed in us and knew we needed salvation so he chose the only way for that salvation. =)

arcura

Oct 4, 2006, 10:10 PM

Starman

Oct 4, 2006, 11:53 PM

My conclusion about theologians isn't based on that incident alone. If it were based on that incident alone I'd be guilty of generalization based on scanty evidence wouldn't I? How a person feels about negative commentaries concerning something the person considers sacred is no mystery. Why you find it so unusual ois a bit weird. Were the apostles theologians? I never said they weren't. But if they were they weren't the products of so-called higher learning which produces theologians who are brainwashed into trashing the Bible without fully understanding what it is they are trashing. How does one know what a person might be thinking without the person speaking? Ever hear of overt body language? Animals don't speak and you know when one is about to rip your head off-right? About honesty, I never questioned their honesty so that's irrelevant. Do I suggest that only those who will not attack the Bible be invited to a biblical film to comment on it? Personally I would suggest it just as evolutionists would suggest that a group of creationist not be invited to a film documenting the life of Darwin and his idea. Or do you suggest the opposite?

My faith being shaken was not the issue though you imply that it was.
My aversion to having such commentaries during three or four separate intermissions is based on the fact that I view the commentators as spoiling my enjoyment of the film with their bias. Anything beyond that is totally your opinion.

BTW
Comparing Jesus and his apostles with present-day theologians is like comparing a lamb with a wolf.

galveston

Oct 5, 2006, 11:27 AM

I'm kind of glad that this discussion has touched on theologians. I asked on another thread what a theologian believes, and the consesus seems to be that theologians do not agree on anything. Therefore, I am comforted to know that my redneck opinion is worth every bit as much as that of a theologian. Anyone can read the Bible and make enough sense out of it to find eternal life.

beautifuldiva

Oct 5, 2006, 12:44 PM

John 14: 8. Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9. Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father'?
Jesus is the incarnate WORD made flesh of God the father.
It is THE Word that created heaven and earth; THE WORD that latter came to be know on earth a Jesus Christ.

It is interesting that you bring this scripture up. However, if you read a little further up starting in verse 5 Thomas had asked the lord how they would know the way following Jesus. In verse 6 Jesus replies to him "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7. If YOU men had known me, you would have known my Father also.; from this moment on you know him and have seen him." (Would it make sense to have to go through Jesus to get to the Father if Jesus was the Father?)

Then to continue with the verses you mentioned where Jesus says "He who has seen me has seen the Father." Again, Jesus' following explanation shows that this was so becuause he faithfully and perfectly represented his Father, spoke the Father's words and did the Father's works. (John 14:10, 11; compare John 12: 28, 44-49) That is why Jesus could say "He who has seen me has seen the Father also." It was on this same occasion, the night of his death, that Jesus said to these very disciples: "The Father is greater than I am." - John 14:28 (If Jesus was equal or the same as the Father why would he refer to the Father as being greater than He was?)

It is also interesting how you refer to Jesus as The Word.. which is correct he is called the Word but is entirely separate from God the Almighty.. however that is another subject and if you wish I will provide my insight on that as well :)

acoltrin

Oct 5, 2006, 05:16 PM

Beautifuldiva-I was thinking all of that and you put all my thoughts down very nicely.

Morganite

Oct 5, 2006, 07:20 PM

:confused: Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! [...] Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:

:) I hope you will not be miffed if I raise a dissenting voice, and offer a different view according to the scriptures. :)

arcura

Oct 5, 2006, 07:26 PM

The Word created heaven and earth. It takes God to do that and Scripture make it clear that Jesus Christ is THE Word/
Saint Thomas, said to Jesus, My Lord and My God.
Jesus did not refute that. The reason is that God cannot lie.
Jesus Christ Is God the Son. As was mentioned in many Bible passages before.
No theologians are necessary now or were then because the Holy Word of God was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

31pumpkin

Oct 5, 2006, 07:58 PM

Also, I see theologians analyzing the Bible, whereas as a pastor with the gift of prophecy can interpret for us what God is saying in each passage that is read.
It's movement of the Holy Spirit.
I think what matters most here is that one believes IN Jesus, the Son of God, as in John 3:16. How much clout one wants to give to God or Jesus is personal & depends on what a person's satisfied with or comfortable with.

arcura

Oct 5, 2006, 08:10 PM

31Pumpkin,
You said. "How much clout one wants to give to God or Jesus is personal & depends on what a person's satisfied with or comfortable with."
I agree!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

beautifuldiva

Oct 5, 2006, 08:12 PM

You have much knowledge on this subject, yet I am still unsure of your position... do you feel that the Bible teaches that Jesus and God are one being?

"The Word" is a title given to Jesus translated in Greek "ho Lo'gos" Regaurding the Son's prehuman existence, John says: "In the beginning the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." (John 1:1 New World Translation) the King James version and the Douay Version read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god." This would make it appear that the Word was identical with Almighty God, while the former reading, the New World Translation, indicates that the Word is not the God, Almighty God, but is a mighty one, a god. (Even the judges of ancient Israel, who wielded great power in the nation, were called "gods." [Ps 82:6; John 10:34, 35]) Actually, in the Greek text, the definite article ho, "the", appears before the second.

Other translations aid in getting the proper view. The interlinear word-for-word reading of the Greek translation in the Empahtic Diaglott reads: "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word." The accompanying text of the Diaglott usus capital and small letters for the God, and initial capital and lowercase letters for the second appearance of "God" in the sentence: "In the Beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with GOD, and the LOGOS was God."

These renderings would support the fact that Jesus, being the Son of God and the one USED BY GOD in creating all other things (Col 1:15-20), is indeed a "god," a mighty one, and has the quality of mightiness, but is NOT the Almighty God.

As regards to Thomas's statement at John 20:28 (My Lord and my God) does it prove that Jesus is truly God?

There is no objection to referring to Jesus as "God," if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus' own quotation from the Pslams in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as "gods." Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher then such men. Because of the uniquiness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 Jesus is referred to as the "only begotten god." All of this is in harmony with Jesus' being described as "a god" or "divine"

The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus' death, Thomas had heard Jesus' prayer in which he addressed his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3) AFter Jesus' resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: "I am ascending..... to my god and your God." After recording what Thomas had said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may bave life in this name." (John 20:31)

So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas' exclamation that Jesus is himself the "the only true God" or that Jesus is a Trinitarian "God the Son," he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).

*gaaaaaaassssspp* :)

Morganite

Oct 6, 2006, 10:23 AM

Yes, I see that reference, but aren't these "authors" just Scholars & Theorists?

My preference of credible sources comes from Theologians with several degrees in Theology.

Theologians with 'several degrees in theology' remain scholars and theorists. Theology is not science. There are no ;scientific' experiments that can be repeated over and over yielding the same result each time. Theologians take what is known of mankind's religious experience and try to make sense of it, God, the universe, life, and man's relationship to Deity.

What makes any theologian a 'credible source'? Multiplying degrees is no guarantee that one theologian is more credible than theologians with fewer degrees. I am at a loss to follow your thinking here. The first Christian theologian was Saint Paul who had a grand total of no degrees.

M:)

31pumpkin

Oct 6, 2006, 02:26 PM

Morganite-
I only said(at the very beginnining of this thread that I consider a theologian (any # of degrees but best if in different religions) more credible if they are a Minister also of that Faith. This shows me that they practice what they preach in service to the community. The pastors I tend to listen to or read their books have both a degree & are or were Ministers. This suggests to me that they have faith in their belief & that they know it works.
It was regarding the "Jesus Seminar" that one poster mentioned. I thought it was shallow since the participants were theologians & not ministers. They seemed so "off" with the Bible even compared to the average Christian.
That's all I remember right now. You can read that Jesus Seminar link & judge for yourself.

LUNAGODDESS

Oct 6, 2006, 03:38 PM

Time and Time again Jesus has stated he is doing the work of his father... Jesus is not the creator of himself... but the creator's helper... along with the holy spirit..

Morganite

Oct 6, 2006, 05:18 PM

Morganite-
I only said at the very beginnining of this thread that I consider a theologian (any # of degrees but best if in different religions) more credible if they are a Minister also of that Faith. This shows me that they practice what they preach in service to the community. The pastors I tend to listen to or read their books have both a degree & are or were Ministers. This suggests to me that they have faith in their belief & that they know it works.
It was regarding the "Jesus Seminar" that one poster mentioned. I thought it was shallow since the participants were theologians & not ministers. They seemed so "off" with the Bible even compared to the average Christian.
That's all I remember right now. You can read that Jesus Seminar link & judge for yourself.

Thank you for the clarification. I know of the Jesus Seminar people, and my impression of them is that they signal a departure from much that is traditionally considered Christian. Their own website carries the following statement:

Until a few years ago, essential knowledge about biblical and religious traditions was hidden in the windowless studies of universities and seminaries—away from the general public. Such research was considered too controversial or too complicated for lay persons to understand. Many scholars, fearing open conflict or even reprisal, talked only to one another. The churches often decided what information their constituents were "ready" to hear.

That passage alone is replete with errors that a five year-old child would not make. For example:
I have yet to see a windowless study in either university or religious seminary.
Theologians and Bible scholars publish their findings and their publications are on sale to anyone sufficiently interested.
Most of the controversial matter has been in the public arena for centuries. There is no 'hidden' work.
Theologians tend to speak in language peculiar to their discipline, as do scholars in any field. However, anyone with a dictionary can discover what the hard words mean.
I do not accept that theologians are such a pusillanimous group that they fear criticism, conflict, or reprisal.
Theologians do not limit their 'talk' to other theologians. They are a talkative lot and talk to cats and dogs if there are no other persons present!
I have never met a theologian who was other than readily accessible to all, whether another theologian, a lay person, clergy, or student.
Theology is about ideas, and ideas do not develop in vacuums, but in crucibles of debate, often passionate, partisan, and wide-ranging.
Churches have no machinery to keep any kind of information from their constituents (an interesting political term, where one would expect to find 'congregations,' or 'members.')
It is beyond dispute - and no theologian would dispute it - that theology and related subjects is by and large highly specialized, but that does not mean that it is inaccessible to non-specialists. Anyone with sufficient interest in the subject can unlock what might appear to be its 'secrets,' but which, in reality, are no more secret or arcane than are Home Owner's Association manuals.

Theology is a subject that probably has a longer history than any other scholastic discipline, and to appreciate the development of theological and christological thought does take some effort, because there is no shortcut to obtaining a reasonable knowledge of any subject. If one is capable of learning the rules of, say football, or baseball, etc. then one is capable of getting to grips with theological terminology and expressions of the human religious experience, and of getting on terms with theological thinkers old and new.

Theology itself has never been difficult to understand. It is the introduction of abstract philosophical concepts into what began as a fairly concrete system that put the cat among the pigeons, but ultimately it is a matter of how much a person really wants to understand theology in its many manifestations.

Here endeth the lesson.

M:)RGANITE

galveston

Oct 7, 2006, 02:24 PM

Has anyone mentioned this passage yet?

Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(KJV)

I suspect that in spite of our best honest efforts, we will continue to have difficulty in understanding the Creator in every aspect. We can know Him in a very personal sense through the Holy Spirit, thankfully!

Will144

Mar 4, 2007, 11:25 AM

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?
Which means:
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

Many people are confused about this, and unfortunately false prophets makes matters even worse. It's a prophecy friend:)

It's a very good questions that you ask. For the most part, people don't understand why he said such words, people don't understand it's a prophecy. Mormons stick to that one verse to kill people spiritually by saying that Jesus was not the Messiah. The Answer is found in the bible, let's see:)

Jesus Christ was supposed to fulfill the prophecy of King David.

In Is 9:6-7 it describes Jesus sitting on King David's throne. But king David had died 300 years before then. At this point most people will say "The bible contradicts itself" No, the bible is perfect. It means He will become a spiritual King David.

King David was baptized when he was 30 years old

2 Samuel 5:4
"David was thirty years old when he became king....."

When do you think Jesus was baptized?

Luke 3:21-23

"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry."

So far everything makes sense right? Now the answer to your questions..

King David said before he died:
Psalm 22:1
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

What do you think Jesus said just before he died, when he was on the cross? You've got it:)

Mark 15:34

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "—which means, "

Because of this, people think he is not God. But he's true God who came in the flesh. If you have any questions, please feel free to email me.

[email protected]

Morganite

Mar 17, 2007, 09:43 AM

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?
Which means:
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

Many people are confused about this, and unfortunately false prophets makes matters even worse. It's a prophecy friend:)

It's a very good questions that you ask. For the most part, people don't understand why he said such words, people don't understand it's a prophecy. Mormons stick to that one verse to kill people spiritually by saying that Jesus was not the Messiah. The Answer is found in the bible, let's see:)

Jesus Christ was supposed to fulfill the prophecy of King David.

In Is 9:6-7 it describes Jesus sitting on King David's throne. But king David had died 300 years before then. At this point most people will say "The bible contradicts itself" No, the bible is perfect. It means He will become a spiritual King David.

King David was baptized when he was 30 years old

2 Samuel 5:4
"David was thirty years old when he became king....."

When do you think Jesus was baptized?

Luke 3:21-23

"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry."

So far everything makes sense right? Now the answer to your questions..

King David said before he died:
Psalm 22:1
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

What do you think Jesus said just before he died, when he was on the cross? You've got it:)

Mark 15:34

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Because of this, people think he is not God. But he's true God who came in the flesh. If you have any questions, please feel free to email me.

[email protected]

Interesting. Can you give a reference to where Mormons say Jesus was not the messiah? I have heard that they do. Could you be confusing them with another denomination?

M:)RGANITE

arcura

Mar 17, 2007, 10:02 AM

The Mormons I know believe Jesus is the Messiah.

EmmaWells

Mar 17, 2007, 03:19 PM

Mormons stick to that one verse to kill people spiritually by saying that Jesus was not the Messiah.

I am Morman and never say that. We know Jesus is the Messiah. Emma

Will144

Mar 17, 2007, 09:22 PM

I am Morman and never say that. We know Jesus is the Messiah. Emma

I apologize for that. I didn't mean to say mormons, I meant to say Jehova's Witnesses.

Will144

Mar 17, 2007, 09:27 PM

Interesting. Can you give a reference to where Mormons say Jesus was not the messiah? I have heard that they do. Could you be confusing them with another denomination?

M:)RGANITE

LoL, it's not interesting. It's amazing. Nobody out there knows this truth though. Even though there are more than 850 different denominations, how come no one teaches about these things? In the last days we have to look for the Spiritual King David, Jesus Christ will come again among the clouds (Which means flesh) as the root of David and will restore all the truths. Specially of the New Covenant, which is the Passover, not the Lord's Supper or Last Supper, but The Passover. Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth. Zion has been restored by King David (Spiritual) and the law is currently going out from Zion and the Word from Jerusalem (Not the present city of Jerusalem but Gal 4:26).

ordinaryguy

Mar 18, 2007, 05:00 AM

Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth.
I do have a question. Does your church teach humility as a virtue?

Will144

Mar 18, 2007, 09:37 AM

I do have a question. Does your church teach humility as a virtue?

Yes, and beyond. For it is more blessed to serve others than to be served. We follow the Lamb everywhere the Lamb goes.

galveston

Mar 18, 2007, 02:18 PM

Morganite

Mar 18, 2007, 09:35 PM

LoL, it's not interesting. It's amazing. Nobody out there knows this truth though. Even though there are more than 850 different denominations, how come no one teaches about these things? In the last days we have to look for the Spiritual King David, Jesus Christ will come again among the clouds (Which means flesh) as the root of David and will restore all the truths. Specially of the New Covenant, which is the Passover, not the Lord's Supper or Last Supper, but The Passover. Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth. Zion has been restored by King David (Spiritual) and the law is currently going out from Zion and the Word from Jerusalem (Not the present city of Jerusalem but Gal 4:26).

There are more than 2,000 discrete denominations and more being added continually. I have not come across any that believe as you do. I note your assurance that you alone have the truth (hardly a novel idea), but would prefer explanation instead of assurances. How do you arrive at your conclusion that the ancient Israelitish pesach is the New Covenant, and when did this enlightenment reach the earth and by whom was it received?

When you say 'nobody out there knows this truth' do you mean to infer that you and you alone know what the rest of Christianity do not know?

M:)RGANITE

Will144

Mar 19, 2007, 10:56 PM

There are more than 2,000 discrete denominations and more being added continually. I have not come across any that believe as you do. I note your assurance that you alone have the truth (hardly a novel idea), but would prefer explanation instead of assurances. How do you arrive at your conclusion that the ancient Israelitish pesach is the New Covenant, and when did this enlightenment reach the earth and by whom was it received?

When you say 'nobody out there knows this truth' do you mean to infer that you and you alone know what the rest of Christianity do not know?

M:)RGANITE

Discrete. No need for "discrete" when you have the bible. I do not have the truth, God knows the truth. I myself have no truth,in fact, no men has the truth; but I follow the truth because it has been given to me freely, therefore freely I have to deliver it. I preach the truth because it is God's will that we deliver if we find the truth. The Church that Jesus Christ established 2,000 years ago which has been raised up again by God's will has the truth. And this church has the very truth. Specially the truth of the New Covenant (The Passover) .

Morganite

Mar 20, 2007, 07:08 AM

LoL, it's not interesting. It's amazing. Nobody out there knows this truth though. Even though there are more than 850 different denominations, how come no one teaches about these things? In the last days we have to look for the Spiritual King David, Jesus Christ will come again among the clouds (Which means flesh) as the root of David and will restore all the truths. Specially of the New Covenant, which is the Passover, not the Lord's Supper or Last Supper, but The Passover. Friends, if you have any questions please contact me. I can assure you my church is the only church IN THE WORLD which has the truth. Zion has been restored by King David (Spiritual) and the law is currently going out from Zion and the Word from Jerusalem (Not the present city of Jerusalem but Gal 4:26).

You did not answer my question, although I note that you corrected your false information in another response.

What, exactly, is the name of your church and what is its history? What is the status of david the murderer?

M:)

Morganite

Mar 20, 2007, 07:09 AM

discrete. No need for "discrete" when you have the bible. I do not have the truth, God knows the truth. I myself have no truth,in fact, no men has the truth; but I follow the truth because it has been given to me freely, therefore freely i have to deliver it. I preach the truth because it is God's will that we deliver if we find the truth. The Church that Jesus Christ established 2,000 years ago which has been raised up again by God's will has the truth. And this church has the very truth. Specially the truth of the New Covenant (The Passover) .

Discrete means separate and distinct.

I am pleased that you have the Bible, but then so have I, and so have millions of others. That still leaves my question to you unanswered. What did Jesus mean when he said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." If you do not have the truth, how are you (or anyone) free from error and false belief?

M:)

Will144

Mar 20, 2007, 02:52 PM

Discrete means separate and distinct.

I am pleased that you have the Bible, but then so have I, and so have millions of others. That still leaves my question to you unanswered. What did Jesus mean when he said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." If you do not have the truth, how are you (or anyone) free from error and false belief?

M:)

The truth is The New Covenant (Jn 6:53, Mt 6:17-26, Lk 22:15-20). That is the truth. If God opens your eyes to understand the scriptures, not have knowledge of them, but understand the scriptures and God's purpose for us. You will see that The New Covenant, in other words, The Passover is the truth. It is the only way we can be raised up at the last day. That is the truth. And through the Passover we are set free of sins as long as we keep the Passover, the feasts of God and the Sabbath. Yes, that is the only truth Jesus left all over the bible, but yet man chooses to ignore and come up with their own concepts and ''discretes''.

Morganite

Mar 20, 2007, 08:25 PM

The truth is The New Covenant (Jn 6:53, Mt 6:17-26, Lk 22:15-20). That is the truth. If God opens your eyes to understand the scriptures, not have knowledge of them, but understand the scriptures and God's purpose for us. You will see that The New Covenant, in other words, The Passover is the truth. It is the only way we can be raised up at the last day. That is the truth. And through the Passover we are set free of sins as long as we keep the Passover, the feasts of God and the Sabbath. Yes, that is the only truth Jesus left all over the bible, but yet man chooses to ignore and come up with their own concepts and ''discretes''.

I have read what you have to say about Jesus and pesach but I cannot follow your line of argument or reasoning. It seems to me that you make vast leaps of logic based on little real evidence of connection.

Do I read you right when it appears to me that you totally discount the crucifixion as a meaningless piece of theatre that contributes nothing to mankind's forgiveness, atonement, and salvation?

Will144

Mar 22, 2007, 06:11 PM

I have read what you have to say about Jesus and pesach but I cannot follow your line of argument or reasoning. It seems to me that you make vast leaps of logic based on little real evidence of connection.

Do I read you right when it appears to me that you totally discount the crucifixion as a meaningless piece of theatre that contributes nothing to mankind's forgiveness, atonement, and salvation?

Jesus celebrated Passover right before the crucifixion. He died for our sins but he eagerly wanted to eat the Passover where can obtain the forgiveness of sins. Do you think it is fair that he died once and then we all get to sin as much as we want and be forgiven? No way, He came and established the new covenant and fulfilled the prophecies by being crucified. We need to celebrate the Passover to have forgiveness of sins. The crucifixion is important by he said to celebrate the Passover. Therefore, we must obey, shouldn't we?

galveston

Mar 22, 2007, 07:01 PM

Morganite

Mar 22, 2007, 08:41 PM

discrete. No need for "discrete" when you have the bible. I do not have the truth, God knows the truth. I myself have no truth,in fact, no men has the truth; but I follow the truth because it has been given to me freely, therefore freely i have to deliver it. I preach the truth because it is God's will that we deliver if we find the truth.

The Church that Jesus Christ established 2,000 years ago which has been raised up again by God's will has the truth. And this church has the very truth. Specially the truth of the New Covenant (The Passover) .

Pardon me, Will, but if, as you say above, you do not have the truth, then how can you preach the truth?

What is the name of this new cult?

M:)

Morganite

Mar 22, 2007, 08:54 PM

Jesus celebrated Passover right before the crucifixion. He died for our sins but he eagerly wanted to eat the Passover where can obtain the forgiveness of sins. Do you think it is fair that he died once and then we all get to sin as much as we want and be forgiven? No way, He came and established the new covenant and fulfilled the prophecies by being crucified. We need to celebrate the Passover to have forgiveness of sins. The crucifixion is important by he said to celebrate the Passover. therefore, we must obey, shouldn't we?

What is there about the meal Jesus ate with the Twelve in the uppper room that forces you to conclude that this was a Passover meal? In the synoptic gospels Jesus, it is said, eats a passover meal before his passion, but in John's gospel he doesn't. The last supper recorded in John;s gospel is actually eaten before the beginning of pesach.

Jesus did not say "Celebrate pesach." That is wildly inaccurate and distorts the scriptural records.

What Jesus did was to institute a memorial meal, "This do in remembrance of me, etc ... " He makes no mention of pesach.

John Chapter 13
John 13:1
1 ¶ NOW before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 13:2
2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;

John 13:3
3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 13:4
4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

John 13:5
5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.

John 13:6
6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

John 13:7
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

John 13:8
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

John 13:9
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head.

John 13:10
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

John 13:11
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

John 13:12
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

John 13:13
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.

John 13:14
14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

John 13:15
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

John 13:16
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 13:17
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

John 13:18
18 ¶ I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted his heel against me.

John 13:19
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he].

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

John 13:21
21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

John 13:22
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

John 13:23
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 13:24
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.

John 13:25
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

John 13:26
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

John 13:27
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

John 13:28
28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.

John 13:29
29 For some [of them] thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy [those things] that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

John 13:30
30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

John 13:31
31 ¶ Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

John 13:32
32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

John 13:33
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

John 13:34
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35
35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

M:confused:RGANITE

Will144

Mar 23, 2007, 03:01 PM

Pardon me, Will, but if, as you say above, you do not have the truth, then how can you preach the truth?

What is the name of this new cult?

M:)

It's a cult but yet I quoted everything that Jesus said? You call a cult a church that follows the teachings of Christ rather than man? I hope God opens your eyes to see the truth and not your own traditions. God Bless and take care.

Morganite

Mar 23, 2007, 05:05 PM

It's a cult but yet I quoted everything that Jesus said? You call a cult a church that follows the teachings of Christ rather than man? I hope God opens your eyes to see the truth and not your own traditions. God Bless and take care.
Every church or religious ovement or group is a cult. Oxford English Dictionary.

The only change to that comes from mean Christians that use the word 'cult' solely in a pejorative sense. Christians are NEVER pejorative. NEVER.

What is your denomination?

I have no traditions but scripture. Sorry If I made you think I had. I don't know how that happened.

M:)

arcura

Apr 2, 2007, 10:19 PM

I believe that when Jesus said that we should know the truth and it will make us free He was talking about what He (God the Son) would teach us via both word and deed.
Every word He said; every thing He did all together (if we learn from them and follow them) will set us free from being enslaved by this world and being lost souls.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

fitnahpolice

Apr 19, 2007, 11:04 PM

arcura

Apr 20, 2007, 12:12 PM

fitnahpolice,
I'm sorry, but Jesus did indicate his divinity several ways as has been shown in originally post of this thread.
I believe that the Triune God is the one and only true God.
The word trinity does NOT have to be in the bible to make it so.
Or do you believe the silly notion that if something is not mentioned in the bible it does not exist?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Retrotia

Apr 20, 2007, 03:24 PM

Jesus never proclaimed divinity for himself nor did he ask his followers to worship him. Infact he prayed to God himself like a true subservient slave. After Christ, the religion and texts were tampered with and there is clear evidence from the early centuries of the adding and expounding of books, e.g. Council of Nicea in the year 325.

The word Trinity cannot be found in the bible but it is mentioned in the Qur'an:

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)[] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Trinity!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs. [4:171]

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. [5:73]

Jesus (peace be upon him) had given glad tidings of Muhammad and it is binding now upon all Christians to follow him. Muslims believe Jesus to be one of the greatest of all messengers. We believe in his miracle birth, his healing the blind and the leper and his giving life to the dead with God's permission. But Jesus never claimed divinity for that would be against his mission. Nor was he crucified as Allah says in the Quran:

"And because of their saying (in boast). We killed Messiah 'Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them" [4:157]

Jesus was raised up by Allah and just like the Christians, muslims believe that he will return before the end of time. But this time not as a messenger but as a leader of the muslims following the commandments of the Qur'an the the legislations laid down by Muhammad. He will be a proof against the Christians as described so eloquently in the Qur'an, Chapter 5:

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the AllMighty, the AllWise."

119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.
Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. I don't need any Nicene doctrine about the Trinity either to believe His deity. Matthew 26:63-64, The high priest said to him, " I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ(or Messiah), the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say,"Jesus replied. Jesus didn't speak openly much about being the Son of God because He would not have been able to teach & do the will of the Father-He would have been persecuted sooner.
The Bible gives God's PLANof salvation. It's a simple Plan. And it is for all who come to faith in Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter whether you worship a mercedes or a plant or a moon god now, it is for all.
Also, I'm sorry but I can refute your statements that Mohammed is mentioned in the Bible from the other thread that Muslims mentioned.
Also, the plan of salvation in the Bible is different from the plan of salvation in the Koran.
We bring that to attention. If fact what Muslims believe will happen in the end-time is a slap in the face to Christianity & Judaism.
Also again, the accuracy of the Bible argument holds no weight-it's pure propaganda.

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible (by Ron Rhodes) (http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Manuscript.html)

arcura

Apr 20, 2007, 06:36 PM

Retrotia,
Regarding all that you posted about the Koran, I believe none of it. Rather I believe Jesus to be who he said his is.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

galveston

Apr 21, 2007, 04:35 PM

Jesus never proclaimed divinity for himself nor did he ask his followers to worship him. Infact he prayed to God himself like a true subservient slave. After Christ, the religion and texts were tampered with and there is clear evidence from the early centuries of the adding and expounding of books, e.g. Council of Nicea in the year 325.

The word Trinity cannot be found in the bible but it is mentioned in the Qur'an:

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)[] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Trinity!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs. [4:171]

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. [5:73]

Jesus (peace be upon him) had given glad tidings of Muhammad and it is binding now upon all Christians to follow him. Muslims believe Jesus to be one of the greatest of all messengers. We believe in his miracle birth, his healing the blind and the leper and his giving life to the dead with God's permission. But Jesus never claimed divinity for that would be against his mission. Nor was he crucified as Allah says in the Quran:

"And because of their saying (in boast). We killed Messiah 'Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them" [4:157]

Jesus was raised up by Allah and just like the Christians, muslims believe that he will return before the end of time. But this time not as a messenger but as a leader of the muslims following the commandments of the Qur'an the the legislations laid down by Muhammad. He will be a proof against the Christians as described so eloquently in the Qur'an, Chapter 5:

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the AllMighty, the AllWise."

119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

You Muslims say that Jesus Christ was a prophet of God. You deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus did claim to be the Son of God. (See references below) Which is it? If Jesus was a prophet, then He told the truth about Himself and His Father. If He lied, then Muhammed was wrong, and Jesus was not a prophet. The Q'ran was written by only one man. The Bible was written by many men who were inspired by the Holy Ghost. The list of Scriptures that follow is only a small sampling that I could send on this subject. Will you say that ALL of the relevant passages were changed? What a ridiculous charge! By the way, there are millions of Christians who do not worship Mary, maybe none do.
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

Matt 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(KJV)

Matt 10:32
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(KJV)

Matt 11:27
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
(KJV)

Matt 12:50
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)

Matt 20:23
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
(KJV)

Matt 26:39
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
(KJV)

Luke 24:49
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
(KJV)

John 10:29-30
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

As to the crucifixion:
Mark 8:31
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
(KJV)

John 3:14
14 And as Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(KJV)

In conclusion, you are betting your eternal soul that the one man (Muhammed) is right and that the many (NT authors) are wrong.

ordinaryguy

Apr 21, 2007, 05:21 PM

galveston

Apr 21, 2007, 05:29 PM

This is classic. Dueling quotes from competing holy books. If only you could see how absurd it looks to those of us who are not within either camp of true believers. You have no impact whatsoever on each other except to arouse one another's righteous indignation, and you reinforce the view of the rest of us that you are both irrelevant. What a waste of time and space. If you really want to make a difference, get off the computer, tell your spouse you love him/her, play with your children, and enjoy the company of your friends.
If you don't like the exchange, why are you here? I don't have to change anyone's mind, but there are people who read these posts who may not have had anyone express things in the particilar way that I, or anyone else does. In short, there are probably undecideds reading. Do you consider this to be a problem?

fitnahpolice

Apr 21, 2007, 09:47 PM

If you don't like the exchange, why are you here? I don't have to change anyone's mind, but there are people who read these posts who may not have had anyone express things in the particilar way that I, or anyone else does. In short, there are probably undecideds reading. Do you consider this to be a problem?

Relax galveston :) He's just an 'ordinary guy' trying to waste some time and space on the computer... let him have his fun time too! :p

If he thought the discussion was useless, he wouldn't be here! Maybe it was worth a click.

fitnahpolice

Apr 21, 2007, 11:00 PM

Curious: So if Jesus was God, who did he pray to? Himself? If you say he prayed to the Father, this means all 3 components of the Trinity can be worshipped separately!

fitnahpolice

Apr 21, 2007, 11:31 PM

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. I don't need any Nicene doctrine about the Trinity either to believe His deity. Matthew 26:63-64, The high priest said to him, " I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ(or Messiah), the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say,"Jesus replied. Jesus didn't speak openly much about being the Son of God bc He would not have been able to teach & do the will of the Father-He would have been persecuted sooner.
The Bible gives God's PLANof salvation. It's a simple Plan. And it is for all who come to faith in Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter whether you worship a mercedes or a plant or a moon god now, it is for all.
Also, I'm sorry but I can refute your statements that Mohammed is mentioned in the Bible from the other thread that Muslims mentioned.
Also, the plan of salvation in the Bible is different from the plan of salvation in the Koran.
We bring that to attention. If fact what Muslims believe will happen in the end-time is a slap in the face to Christianity & Judaism.
Also again, the accuracy of the Bible argument holds no weight-it's pure propaganda.

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible (by Ron Rhodes) (http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Manuscript.html)

On the contrary what you believe will happen at the end of time is a slap in the face of justice. No person will bear the burden of another and every man shall pay for his own deeds. None will die for another - not even a Prophet! Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for our sins. But he lived to show us how to stay away from sins. He lived to show us the light and the path to paradise.

Salvation is not simply having faith in Jesus as our savior. True salvation is in being Jesus-like - in his obedience to God, his character, and in every aspect of how he lived!

Retrotia

Apr 22, 2007, 10:42 AM

On the contrary what you believe will happen at the end of time is a slap in the face of justice. No person will bear the burden of another and every man shall pay for his own deeds. None will die for another - not even a Prophet! Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for our sins. But he lived to show us how to stay away from sins. He lived to show us the light and the path to paradise.

Salvation is not simply having faith in Jesus as our savior. True salvation is in being Jesus-like - in his obedience to God, his character, and in every aspect of how he lived!

You are close with regards to salvation. Except that it is backwards." True" salvation comes from faithin Jesus. The obedience is a process by which "we" put to death the sinful nature (of the flesh) to become more Christlike and therefore live by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit, the one you fail to credit, brings to memory the teachings of Christ. (And brings much, much more)

About the end-time comment. You do not know God of the Bible to claim that He isn't the One who makes justice in the 1st place.Who is anyone to judge God? He will come with divine retribution in the end time(Isaiah 35:4) With justice He judges and makes war.(Revelation 19:11)
It has nothing to do with one dying for another. Jesus died for our sins once & for all. We are justified in Him. We will go up with Him for this faith & this obedience. The remaining will have to bear it out . Some will be saved then- but I'm thankful I don't have spiritual blindness or deafness up to that point.
Living by faith, looking to Christ for all things-pardon, righteousness, peace joy, comfort, & the supply of every grace. By grace we are saved(salvation) not by works. What works we do after receiving Christ will be the Gentiles judgment-meaning how they will be honored in Heaven- not if we go to Heaven-but what kind of place & what we will be doing there will be reflected by our work or service for Christ.
It would be interesting to compare the Eschatology of the 3 major religions if you care to.

arcura

Apr 22, 2007, 11:59 AM

fitnahpolice,
The Holy Bible records that Jesus did admit to His divinity as did others.
Your claim that Jesus did not is a false claim.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

-radioactive-

Apr 22, 2007, 08:20 PM

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:
Jesus Was 100% God, 100% Human
He Neither Denied Nor Claimed That He Was God Himself
So We Cannot Say He Claimed Himself God.
But God, Jesus, And The Holy Spirit
Are All God, Just In Different Forms.

arcura

Apr 22, 2007, 09:21 PM

Radioactive,
When Jesus answered "I AM" he was saying he was God Yahweh "I AM"
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

-radioactive-

Apr 22, 2007, 09:25 PM

He said I AM not I AM GOD.
So he didn't claim he was God axactly.
He just claimed I AM
If he said I AM GOD, or I AM YOUR LORD, BOW DOWN!
Then I would believe it
But he did say that the Lord God was his Father

chaplain john

Apr 23, 2007, 01:57 AM

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:
Brothers and sisters here I don't claim to be a highly educated man. In fact I am just an old retired truck driver (I usually term that Professional Road Dummy) Many years after I felt the call to preach Gods Good News I quit running and started to try to educate myself to do just exactly that, In the course of my attempt I learned a few things and what I consider one of the most important of them was that I would not always agree with the opinions and or beliefs of others. I personally have found this to be very helpful: Sometimes we must agree to disagree and turn together to do a work for Christ.

I find quite a number of people here who are obviously are much better educated than I in the course of a discussion where there is not much probability of ever coming to common ground (I have come to that realization after reading a little less than half the posts on the thread I have learned much as I read and assume that I will learn more as I read the rest but I want to post this before I retire. Yes I'm Going off half-cocked.). My suggestion is that we ALL agree to disagree before we end up flaming one-another.

One last thing and I will shut up I have lived in a university town for many years and my personal observation of those "Scholars, Researchers, Theologians and such is that the PhD following their names could easily stand for Permanent Head Damage. There is Theology and there is Knee-ology. Sometimes the knee-ology and inspiration of the Holy Spirit is more important when it comes to the winning of souls into the Kingdom of God and THAT is the important thing for Christians to do

arcura

Apr 23, 2007, 02:52 PM

chaplain john
Thanks for you in put on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

galveston

Apr 23, 2007, 04:41 PM

Personally, I'm kind of glad that fitnapolice has weighed in on this. Right now, I'm waiting to hear why he thinks the words of one man, (Muhammed) is more reliable than the words of the many eye-witnesses who left us the account(s) of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also, if I understand him right, he believes that Jesus will come back to administer judgment. That would make Jesus Lord, wouldn't it? Why don't Muslims proclaim Jesus as Lord now? I certainly proclaim Jesus as Lord. Does that put us on the same page on this one point? I hope we can discuss all this, point by point, as I would like to know what he really believes.

chaplain john

Apr 23, 2007, 09:33 PM

[

It is also interesting how you refer to Jesus as The Word.. which is correct he is called the Word but is entirely separate from God the Almighty.. however that is another subject and if you wish I will provide my insight on that as well :)[/quote]

Here I go again jumping in to try and make a fool of myself but I can't help it.

My logic suffers a lot these days but it seems to me that a Holy Being who is a Spiritual Being who is capable of speaking a Word which then becomes substance would be capable of manifesting himself in three different ways at the same time especially if he himself is not bound by space and time.

Beautiful diva Chapter one of the Book of John starts like this: John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. RSV

Gen 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning God (God the Father I don't think anyone will debate that) (Oops sorry Darwinians)created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; (The Word... Jesus) and there was light. RSV

arcura

Apr 24, 2007, 09:39 AM

chaplain john.
Keep in mind that with God ALL things are possible.
God is not limited by space or time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

magprob

Apr 24, 2007, 06:54 PM

Jesus was not GOD becoming man, he was man becoming GOD. That is the whole point of it. The Christ mind is the mind of GOD in us. The Greek "Logos," the word, as used here means Divine Mind in action, the divine archetypal idea of perfect man. The word Christ is a degree of potential stature that dwells in every man.

chaplain john

Apr 24, 2007, 07:27 PM

chaplain john.
Keep in mind that with God ALL things are possible.
God is not limited by space or time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Thank you arcura, that is one of the points I was trying to get across summed up in one sentence.

arcura

Apr 24, 2007, 08:26 PM

magprob,
I disagree.
I believe what the bible says about Jesus Christ being God the Son.
Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

magprob

Apr 27, 2007, 09:46 AM

He is the son of GOD as we all are. With the same possibilities as Jesus. I'm not arguing with that. If GOD wants to have an immaculate conception then I say he is quite capable to do so.

arcura

Apr 27, 2007, 09:11 PM

magprob,
I agree. Whatever God wants He has the ability to accomplish it!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

fitnahpolice

May 3, 2007, 12:00 PM

Surely God has the ability to do as He wishes. But he never wishes for nor does he approve of blasphemy!

God says in Chapter Mary of the Quran:

88. And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allâh) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]."

89. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.

90. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,

91. That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allâh).

92. But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).

93. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) as a slave.

94. Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting.

95. And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection (without any helper, or protector or defender).

96. Verily, those who believe [in the Oneness of Allâh and in His Messenger] and work deeds of righteousness, the Most Beneficent (Allâh) will bestow love for them (in the hearts of the believers).

Retrotia

May 3, 2007, 03:15 PM

I agree fitnahpolice, God does not approve of blasphemy or heresy.

Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. Ezra was a prophet from the Old Testament.
Response to Islamic Awareness: Was 'Uzayr (Ezra) Called The Son Of God? (http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Responses/Saifullah/ezra.htm)

Jadire

May 3, 2007, 06:22 PM

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:
Absolutely, unequivocally. There is a God.. Jesus and God are one and the same.

fitnahpolice

May 3, 2007, 08:47 PM

Curious: So if Jesus was God, who did he pray to? Himself? If you say he prayed to the Father, this means all 3 components of the Trinity can be worshipped separately!

Comments on this post
Retrotia disagrees: Limited. He prayed to the Father. When we pray, all 3 are understood. Bc I have Christ in me, the Holy Spirit prays to the Lord Who is Spirit.

Ok this is confusing. So Jesus worshipped, prayed and was subservient to God the Father. And the Christians of today pray to all 3? Why not do as Jesus did? Was he not the best of teachers and guides? So you're saying you have Christ in you; the Holy Spirit prays to the Lord who is the spirit himself. And you are worshipping Christ who is within yourself! Please help!

fitnahpolice

May 3, 2007, 08:52 PM

Jesus is Lord.

Absolutely, unequivocally. There is a God..Jesus and God are one and the same.

Jesus prayed TO God. He did not pray to himself. If we love Jesus, believe in his teachings and have faith in him, we must all do as he did - Worship the One God like Jesus did.

fitnahpolice

May 3, 2007, 09:27 PM

Personally, I'm kinda glad that fitnapolice has weighed in on this. Right now, I'm waiting to hear why he thinks the words of one man, (Muhammed) is more reliable than the words of the many eye-witnesses who left us the account(s) of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also, if I understand him right, he believes that Jesus will come back to administer judgment. That would make Jesus Lord, wouldn't it? Why don't Muslims proclaim Jesus as Lord now? I certainly proclaim Jesus as Lord. Does that put us on the same page on this one point? I hope we can discuss all this, point by point, as I would like to know what he really believes.

Thank you Galveston for considering my viewpoints of having some weight! :)

Firstly, the Holy Qur'an is the speech of God revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the Archangel Gabriel just as the Torah and the Bible were God's revelations to their respective Prophets. The Qur'an is NOT the words of the unlettered and illiterate Prophet Muhammad and Muhammad dare not add anything to it of his own.

Allah says in Chapter 69:

44. And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allâh),

45. We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),

46. And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta),

47. And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him.

Yes. Jesus (peace be upon him), the son of Mary, was taken up by God (he was neither killed nor crucified) and he will return before the end of time. He will kill the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) and establish peace on the earth as a just ruler judging by the prevailing law of the Quran and not the law of the Gospel. After a period of about 40 years he will pass away and then soon after the Hour (Day of Judgement) will be established.

So Jesus' return and rule on this earth does not make him Lord. In fact he will still be a worshipper of God and will guide the people to the same - singling out Allah for worship without invoking any partners beside Him.

Once the Day of Resurrection and Reckoning is established, Allah alone will be Lord, the King, the Judge - as He has always been and will always be.

Jadire

May 4, 2007, 10:18 AM

Jesus prayed TO God. He did not pray to himself. If we love Jesus, belive in his teachings and have faith in him, we must all do as he did - Worship the One God like Jesus did.

You are quite right. Jesus did not pray to Himself. And you are quite right.. there is only ONE God. But Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

Let not, however, limit God and what is possible with and through Him to our simple ability to understand how it is done. The Bible said it, I believe it. There is no other assigned authority on the subject, period.

Retrotia

May 4, 2007, 10:32 AM

Yes, but the claim of "revelation" is still by one man as compared to the thousands of witnesses & similar revelations of the same Spirit in the Gospels & in the entire Holy Bible.

Now, in the end-times do you agree that Islam believes that Jesus' purpose in returning is to fight for Islam-"Kill all the pigs and break all the crosses, to confirm that Islam is the only true religion?"

I don't believe that. In the Tribulation- there are 2 big wars against Israel. The king of the North (experts name it Russia), & the king of the South (represented by the Arab states) is the 1st battle. They come up against Israel.(This is Ezekiel's war, Ezekiel 38-39) All but 1/6 will be killed(divine intervention) on the hills of Israel. Then there will be no power to contest the Antichrist's right to world authority.
The Antichrist (king of the west & false messiah to Israel) will emerge center stage & form 1 world government & 1 world religion. For a brief time, he will be a one-world dictator.
That will leave the king of the East(China) That is where Armegeddon comes in because the Antichrist & the king of the East will do battle for world domination. The military will cover all 200 miles north to south in Israel. At which time Christ comes as conqueror. Israel is to have a spiritual awakening in the end-time.
Note, that the Church, or all Christian believers will be raptured before the great Tribulation. In 1Thessolonians 4:13-18, the apostle Paul descrbes the rapture when the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. According to some theologians, 3/12 years after this takes place, the Antichrist, who will be head of the European Union, is going to be given power "over every tribe, tongue, and nation"(Rev.13:7).
All the more reason to find salvation through Jesus Christ the Lord now.
We already know about the weapons the Soviets have been selling to Iran. Much prophecy is being revealed in one generation- that it is raising Biblical eyebrows lately.

Jadire

May 4, 2007, 11:03 AM

[QUOTE=mrs.pennell] According to the scholars, Jesus would not have called himself God or the Son of God. For more information on this and the historical Jesus you can go to this website:

The Jesus Seminar (http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/jesussem.html)

Or Google THE JESUS SEMINAR. The Jesus Seminar is the group of scholars that did the research to ascertain what could be attributed to Jesus and what is likely not his words. They believe that only 20% of Jesus' sayings in the Gospel are actually his words.

QUOTE]

Are you seriously quoting scholars? My gosh, a scholar is merely a man. Jesus was right under their noses and they didn't recognize him, and he rebuked them for it.

Here's the key factor for the Naysayers:... You made an educated and informed decision. You had a greater opportunity to make a choice than many others did. This will be no one's fault but your own.

Jadire

May 4, 2007, 11:28 AM

note, that the Church, or all Christian believers will be raptured before the great Tribulation. In 1Thessolonians 4:13-18, the apostle Paul descrbes the rapture when the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. According to some theologians, 3/12 years after this takes place, the Antichrist, who will be head of the Europian Union, is going to be given power "over every tribe, tongue, and nation"(Rev.13:7).

Where in the Bible does it say that the Rapture will take place BEFORE the Trib? I personally believe that to be true... but my question to you is WHERE does the BIBLE say it?

I'm no scholar, but as a fellow believer, I would suggest that we not get into misleading people by mixing Scripture w/ personal opinions. I don't think the Bible specifically states your timeline. Am I wrong?

Retrotia

May 4, 2007, 01:42 PM

Where in the Bible does it say that the Rapture will take place BEFORE the Trib? I personally believe that to be true...but my question to you is WHERE does the BIBLE say it?

I'm no scholar, but as a fellow believer, I would suggest that we not get into misleading people by mixing Scripture w/ personal opinions. I don't think the Bible specifically states your timeline. Am I wrong?

No, I know about the pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib debates that are out there.

I 've read a couple of books on the end-times. It is not my opinion that the Church must be removed from God's wrath in the Great Tribulation. These who interpret Biblical prophesy have stated that the Gentile church is removed so that- Israel's blindness to the Messiah will end when" the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

See Luke 21:36. See Revelation 3:7-13- To the Church in Philadelphia (called the faithful church)
PHILADELPHIA: 7 CHURCHs of REVELATION (http://www.revlu.com/RevPhil.html)

Tessy777

May 23, 2007, 07:09 AM

Jesus said... Before Abraham... I AM. I AM is God! Yes he said he was God AND the Jews knew EXACTLY what he said because they picked up rocks to stone him for it. He also let Thomas bow and worship him... Thomas said... my savior and my God!

Tessy777

May 23, 2007, 07:15 AM

Correction... Thomas said my Lord and my God. Sorry, I know this is an old post but it was interesting...

arcura

May 23, 2007, 03:36 PM

Tessy777
Thanks.
You are right.
Peace ans kindness,
Fred (arcura)

jayb09

Jun 6, 2007, 12:09 PM

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:
Jeus is God! Some questions for people to consider
Isaiah 7:14; St. Mathew 1:23 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who is Immanuel?

Genesis 1:1; Colossians 1:14-17 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, who created the heavens, and earth? Jesus or God?

Genesis 49:10; Hebrews 7:14 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, when will our Lord spring out of the Tribe of Juda?

I Kings 22:19; Revelations 4:2 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, how many is setting on the throne? Psalms 45:6; Philippians 2:11.

Numbers 24:16-17- If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, when will Balaam's prophecy come to pass?

Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:11 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who shall we bow to? Jesus or God?

Isaiah 45:15-21; Titus 2:13 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who is our savior?

Isaiah 9:6 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then when will Isaiah's prophecy come to pass?

If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, why when the Devil was tempting Jesus, "Jesus said unto him, 'Thou Shalt not tempt the Lord Thy God'"? St. Matthew 4:7.

If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, when will the Lord God of Israel visit his people to redeem them? St. Luke 1:68.

If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, why did Steven call God by his name and said, "Lord Jesus"? Acts 7:59.

If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who is the True God? I John 5:20.

Deuteronomy 32:4; I Corinthians 10:4 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who is The Rock? God or Christ?

If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then Thomas must told a lie in St. John 20:28, when he said to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". Did Thomas lie?

I Timothy 3:16 - If Jesus Christ is not God, when did God come in the flesh?

I John 3:16 - If Jesus Christ is not God, when did God lay down his life? St. John 3:16; I Peter 3:18.

St. John 14:9 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, why did He say to Philip, "When you see me, you see The Father", and there is only one Father? Malachi 2:10.

Did God tell a lie when he told Saul that He is Jesus in, Acts 9:5.

If Jesus Christ is not God, then we must say the He's not Good. St. Mark 10:18; St. John 10:14.

Psalms 90:2; Revelations 1:18 - If Jesus Christ is not God, then who is He that liveth, and was dead; and is alive evermore (everlasting)?

jayb09

Jun 6, 2007, 12:13 PM

Why we are on the topic? How does one become saved? Do you believe it is just by faith or does that faith require works with the water baptism and infilling of the holy ghost? What say you?

speechlesstx

Jun 6, 2007, 02:47 PM

Fred, read this article (http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/sonofman.html), excerpted below. It's probably not what you would have expected.

Background: Whence the "Son of Man"?

Most commentators start they journey on the SOM with Daniel 7. Sometimes they look into the ANE to find comparable pagan divine figures. But somehow and some way, if we are to believe an entirely neutral source, they have missed the most relevant key of all.

It was as a result of my research on Zoroaster that I found the programmatic data, which comes from Ernest Herzfeld's Zoroaster and His World [835-840]. Herzfeld notes the uses of phrases containing "son of..." in the ancient world and what purpose they served. The phrase as used in Daniel is bar enash. (Note for certain skeptics: This is an important distinction from other uses of the phrase in the OT, which generally use 'adam for man).

What is the significance of this difference? The combination bar enash and its parallels in Old Babylonian carry the meaning of an heir or successor to royalty, or of a free man of the highest class. A "man" here is not just any man, but as we might say, "THE MAN" as in royalty. Herzfeld notes an example of this usage in the Code of Hammurabi.

Daniel was written at a time when this phrase had a specific and known meaning. In the context of Daniel 7:13, in which the one "like a son of man" comes to the Ancient of Days (Almighty God) and is given dominion of the sort that God possesses, the significance of Jesus' "son of man" usage cannot be overstated. It is functionally equivalent to saying that the one like a son of man is rightful heir and successor to the divine throne. "Son of man" is essentially the same as "Son of God" in this context.

It is therefore clear that if Jesus is using the phrase consistent with its original meaning, it is a powerful and clear claim to deity. But before we take that further, let's look at some Jewish parallels that might substantiate the case.

From the Jewish apocryphal Book of 1 Enoch, in a section referred to as the Similitudes (Chapters 37-71), we find a description of the Son of Man as one who was given that name before time itself; one who would become a light to the Gentiles, will be worshipped throughout the earth; and will "dethrone kings and crush the teeth of sinners." [Chars.JesJud, 40, 48] In 1 Enoch 48 specifically, the terms "Son of Man," "Messiah," and "Elect One" are used interchangeably, indicating that in the mind of that author, they meant the same thing [With.JQ, 214]. The Similitudes may be later than Jesus; but they would serve to demonstrate the existence of a personal concept of the "Son of Man" at the time of Jesus or shortly thereafter, albeit not in a titular form. However, the matter is complicated by the fact that this part of 1 Enoch is only available in a late, Ethiopic translation. This material cannot be used decisively for any argument.

Relevant also is material from the book of 4 Ezra, written late in the first century. Here there are also obvious allusions to the character of Daniel 7 as a Messiah - although the words "son of man" are not used [Todt.SOM, 24; Hare.SOM; Case.SOM, 124].

Later interpretations, by rabbis and Christian commentators, of Daniel 7 are relevant, but varied [see Case.SOM]. Some saw the figure as corporate Israel; some saw it as Messianic. Little suggests that SOM was considered a title.

A considerable factor in Jesus' words is his comment that the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of God. This is far more significant than our phrase, "right-hand man" would suggest. In a study of the matter in Blashpemy and Exaltation in Judaism [203ff], Darrell Bock discusses parallels in Jewish texts and offers these conclusions:

In the literature of Judiasm of the period, "a proximate seating next to God" i.e., in His presence) "might be considered for a privileged few, either a few universally acknowledged greats" (Moses, Adam, etc.) "of the past or the future eschatological figure of judgment" (the Son of Man of Daniel 7). But such honor "would never be comtemplated by the leadership for a humble, rural Galilean, preacher like Jesus." Being seated in God's presence (like being seated during the National Anthem) by itself was audacious, though not necessarily a claim to divinity, until we add:

The right hand reference, which means in this culture that Jesus is claiming to be seated by God "in a way that shares the highest honor with him." In other texts, the "right hand of God" is the place where the splendor and majeesty of God comes from (Testament of Job), and the righteous are honored by being allowed to stand (not sit!) at the right hand of God.

In short, Jesus thereby claims the prerogatives of God with the combination honor of being seated at the right hand of God, and therefore asserts his divine identity.

As an added note for fans of eschatology, it is a good idea to check passages in the NT which refer to Jesus at God's right hand. By our eschatological view, Jesus' "seating" corresponded with events of 70 AD (see more here). In this light it is noteworthy that Jesus in Acts 7 is still standing at God's right hand (not yet seated). (Other passages [like Eph. 1:20 and Heb. 12:2] speak of Jesus being set at God's right hand, though whether seated, or standing in place, is not specified.)

Yes, Jesus claimed to be God.

Jeff Logan

Jun 6, 2007, 05:09 PM

Jesus never said He was God:

"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)

Jeff :)

ActionJackson

Jun 6, 2007, 05:38 PM

Heck... there's really no need to reply. You pretty much covered it. God is triune in nature, that is, He is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ was 100% man and 100% God.

ActionJackson

Jun 6, 2007, 06:00 PM

Why we are on the topic? How does one become saved? Do you believe it is just by faith or does that faith require works with the water baptism and infilling of the holy ghost? What say you?

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say 'Thou has faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.' Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith, without works is dead?" James 2:17-20

"Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Timothy 2:15

I believe that much is required of a Christian. Some church leaders may say that all one has to do is believe and that's it. Beware! If that was all that was required then we wouldn't have a thick Bible full of God's Word. All we would need is that single page that says "believe."

ActionJackson

Jun 6, 2007, 06:11 PM

[QUOTE=Jeff Logan]Jesus never said He was God:

QUOTE]

John 8:58, (Speaking to the Pharisees) "Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'"

If Christ were a mere mortal, He could not have existed before Abraham who lived hundreds of years before Him. Therefore, Christ is the great I AM Who is God Almighty.

Retrotia

Jun 6, 2007, 10:22 PM

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say 'Thou has faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.' Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith, without works is dead?" James 2:17-20

"Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Timothy 2:15

I believe that much is required of a Christian. Some church leaders may say that all one has to do is believe and that's it. Beware! If that was all that was required then we wouldn't have a thick Bible full of God's Word. All we would need is that single page that says "believe."
Oh boy, got to disagree with you about the faith plus works thing equaling salvation.
Faith plus nothing equal salvation.

Martin Luther

The question is asked: how can justification take place without the works of the law, even though James says: “Faith without works is dead”?

In answer, the apostle distinguishes between the law and faith, the letter and grace. The ‘works of the law’ are works done without faith and grace, by the law, which forces them to be done through fear or the enticing promise of temporal advantages. But ‘works of faith’ are those done in the spirit of liberty, purely out of love to God. And they can be done only by those who are justified by faith. An ape can cleverly imitate the actions of humans. But he is not therefore a human. If he became a human, it would undoubtedly be not by virtue of the works by which he imitated man but by virtue of something else; namely, by an act of God. Then, having been made a human, he would perform the works of humans in proper fashion. Paul does not say that faith is without its characteristic works, but that it justifies without the works of the law. Therefore justification does not require the works of
The law; but it does require a living faith, which performs its works. - Martin Luther

Ephesians 2: 8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yoursevelves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
Read the next sentence in Phillipians 2:12-13 There, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence- continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
John 3:16
Matthew 11:28-30 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your soul. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
I agree with getting baptised. But again not a requirement for salvation. Jesus commanded us to be baptised( at some point though )

ActionJackson

Jun 7, 2007, 06:41 PM

Oh boy, gotta disagree with you about the faith plus works thing equaling salvation.
Faith plus nothing equal salvation.

Wait a sec. I didn't say it, I quoted the Apostle James right out of the Bible. Since he was inspired by the Holy Ghost to write those words in the book that all Christians accept as God's Word, then you will have to get after him... not me. Apparently, he believed that if we had faith and sat on our behinds, then our faith was dead. I believe that Martin Luther was a great man and I have many of his writings in my library. However, considering the fact that James walked with Christ and learned directly from the greatest Teacher of scriptural matters, I can't help but lean more towards the teachings of James than the teachings of Martin. That's not to say that I believe that works alone will do anything for a person's salvation. It MUST be accompanied by Faith.

What do you think Paul meant when he told us to "work out our own salvation?

Retrotia

Jun 7, 2007, 09:10 PM

You are making salvation sound hard. This is not what I believe. This is why some young Christian boys are nervous wrecks- because they think they can't be good or do good enough or be holy enough in the Lord's eyes.
What do you think Paul was saying in Ephesians? Not by works, that none should boast.
And John 3:16? Same message. And the same message I follow from 4-5 different pastors.

Work out with fear- don't forget the word" fear" there. We are supposed to have a fear of the Lord (or reverence) always.
What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn't need works to be granted salvation.
Equipped for good works--- after salvation.

I know it's 1 word- but the placement of it must be correct (what Jesus, John, Paul spoke) Otherwise, these kids are" killing themselves" to be accepted into heaven.

But you may be right. It could be because of James' writings.

ActionJackson

Jun 8, 2007, 04:29 AM

You are making salvation sound hard. This is not what I believe. This is why some young Christian boys are nervous wrecks- bc they think they can't be good or do good enough or be holy enough in the Lord's eyes.
What do you think Paul was saying in Ephesians? Not by works, that none should boast.
And John 3:16? Same message. And the same message I follow from 4-5 different pastors. Work out with fear- don't forget the word" fear" there. We are supposed to have a fear of the Lord (or reverence) always.
What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn't need works to be granted salvation. Equipped for good works--- after salvation.
I know it's 1 word- but the placement of it must be correct (what Jesus, John, Paul spoke) Otherwise, these kids are" killing themselves" to be accepted into heaven.
But you may be right. It could be bc of James' writings.

I think we're probably closer in our belief than our words portray. I agree that if a person comes to Jesus Christ for the first time, accepts Him as Lord and Saviour, etc. that he or she receives salvation. However, I believe that Christianity is a growing process. In other words, that brand new Christian shouldn't pastor a church the day after he becomes a Christian. He will need to do a lot more seeking and searching and become more prepared before he can lead an entire congregation. There is also a Scripture that says that those who return to their old ways are like dogs returning to their vomit. That indicates that at some point, a person's faith died and they returned to an old habit or whatever.

Also, faith and salvation aren't not really synonyms. James said that "faith" without works is dead but not necessarily "salvation" would die along with it. I've known good Christians who were going through very trying times who felt like giving up. Their faith was weak and wavering but they were still Christians bound for God's Kingdom. I think what James was saying was that the strength of our faithfulness was dependent on how we exercised the living, Christian principles in our lives.

Morganite

Jun 9, 2007, 09:51 AM

Curious: So if Jesus was God, who did he pray to? Himself? If you say he prayed to the Father, this means all 3 components of the Trinity can be worshipped separately!

You bring fitnah to Christians. It is a commonplace action by unbelievers and we are used to it.

Peace be upon you.

M:)RGANITE

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 10:08 AM

Jesus prayed TO God. He did not pray to himself. If we love Jesus, belive in his teachings and have faith in him, we must all do as he did - Worship the One God like Jesus did.

Jesus Christ was 100% God and 100% man. He told those that He taught to "pray thusly." He was showing by example how to pray to the Father. He, in His manhood, was praying to the Godhead. As H2O comes in three forms i.e. liquid, ice, and steam, so does the Godhead in His fullness, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (three offices, one God). As it is said in the first chapter of Genesis: let "Us" create man in "Our" image. And so He did. A man is a single entity but he comprises body, soul, and spirit... all three units make the single man.

jayb09

Jun 9, 2007, 10:52 AM

This is a really good conversation but I have to agree with ActionJackson

If salvation is just accepting the Lord in your heart? Why does the scripture talk of the baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost?

Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus: "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born again, He cannot see the kingdom of God", St. John 3:3. I think a lot of people think born again is just accepting him in your heart but there is more of a requirement.

Jesus elaborates some more when in St John 3:5, "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born of Water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the kingdom of God".
Jesus said in St. Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost". By the way, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Jesus!

Acts 2:38."Repent and be Baptized every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

St. Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; But he that believeth not shall be damned". This is a plain clear message yet people still go in their own way

Ephesians 4:5, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism".

I Peter 3:21, "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us".

I guess it boils down to if people believe in what a man tells them or what Jesus and the apostles told us Salvation requires. I ‘ll stick with Jesus!

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments

It is also written "They profess that they know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient and unto every good work reprobate",

Retrotia

Jun 9, 2007, 07:09 PM

jayb09,
The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens when you convert or accept Jesus.
It is good that one recognizes the command to be baptized. It shows maturity.
People who are born again, plain and simple, will be going to Heaven. There are not two classes of Christians. You either are or are not saved.John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the
kingdom of God."
Baptism is an outward display of an inner conviction(something already there) to identify with Christ - His death and resurrection for us personally.
Belief in Jesus is our salvation-not our righteous acts.

And your question was about salvation-not faith- as the others alluded to.

Yes, faith is not a destination. The destination is the joy.
Faith and joy He works in us throughout.
And I agree. Faith is #1 an action. Not just words.

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 07:53 PM

[QUOTE=jayb09] If salvation is just accepting the Lord in your heart? Why does the scripture talk of the baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost?

St John 3:5, "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born of Water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

Acts 2:38."Repent and be Baptized every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

St. Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; But he that believeth not shall be damned".

I Peter 3:21, "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us".

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments [QUOTE]

So, according to Jesus in John 3:5, being born of the Water and the Spirit (interesting that "water" comes before "spirit") is necessary prior to entering into the Kingdom.

Then, if we look at the wording of Acts 2:38 in a chronological way, we are to 1) Repent, 2) Be Baptized in Jesus' name 3) then receive the Holy Ghost. Interesting. So, we won't receive the Holy Ghost unless we have first been baptized and we shouldn't be baptized if we haven't first repented of our sins. Wow... you learn something new everyday. All the years I've read the Bible and have read that verse it never struck me like it just did.

Thanks for your post Jayb09. May Christ's hedge of protection surround you, your family, and your community.

Retrotia

Jun 9, 2007, 09:06 PM

ActionJackson

Jun 10, 2007, 05:00 AM

Matthew 3:11-12 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, who sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Act 2:1-4- When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Oh, it's fire! and you are Baptized in the Holy Spirit when you received Jesus.

The practice of being baptized with water did not stop after this verse. Therefore, the baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire is an addition to the water baptism because we know that Jesus, Himself, continued the practice. The "fire" baptism spoken of in Matthew 3:12 where the "chaff" are burned correlates with the end time cleansing of the world as spoken of in the parable of the wheat and the tares. Read Matthew 13:38-42

At the point in time in which the events of Acts 2:1-4 took place, there were eleven Apostles present. Judas was dead and Paul had not been converted yet. Standing before the eleven Apostles were men from many lands who spoke many different languages. In order for the Apostles to preach the Good News to all of them simultaneously the Holy Ghost gave them the power to speak in a manner that everyone present could understand the Apostles' speech in his own native tongue. This is the point that the Apostles spoke in tongues in the true sense. (There are some who "speak in tongues" today and nobody can understand a word they say). I agree that this could be seen as a baptism of the Holy Ghost but it specifically affected the Apostles who had already been baptized in water by Jesus Christ.

Retrotia

Jun 10, 2007, 07:35 AM

ActionJackson

Jun 10, 2007, 10:09 AM

AJ,
I will let someone who has the time explain this to you. This is "our" position. You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs. I see where there are differences concerning denominations & doctrines.
Baptism Not a Requirement for Salvation (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13941.htm)

I can certainly see the point you are trying to make. I also understand that under some historical circumstances that persons were saved that were unable to be baptized by full immersion baptism. The thief on the cross comes to mind. However, I don't believe that it should be taken too lightly. There are a number of Scriptures that point to the importance of baptism.

I wonder what Jesus would say to someone who had the opportunity to be baptized but didn't because he didn't think that it was important enough to go through with it. How many people won't be baptized because they were told that it wasn't necessary for salvation? If I told someone that it wasn't all that important and not necessary for salvation and that someone opted against being baptized based on my choice of words, would I be considered a stumbling block?

jayb09

Jun 10, 2007, 12:55 PM

Well said AJ! You know when you stated about being the stumbling block because there so many preachers out there who do not know the truth but are telling people that if they just accept Christ in their heart and they will be saved, it reminds me of Lazarus in the rich man. We all know the story but let's look at these few versus in Luke Chapter 16. I am picking up where the rich man has the conversation with Abraham.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I quote all of those scriptures to say this. Once someone has been directed and given the word of truth they are held accountable. I think of the many times I have had conversations with people and how they were never convinced of the truth. But we all have to one day meet God. Those who have been told what the way of truth is, what can they say to God? It can't be Lord you never told me or I never knew because we have had this converstaion.

My second part is this. I can you Retotria and anyone else that God is real. Unless I had tasted of the goodness of the Lord and had not experienced the water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost I might be swayed with what man has told me but now I know too much and I know that God is real because he dwells and abides down on the inside. Glory to be God! God is the same day today yesterday and forever more! His word never changes!

I pray that the Lord open your understanding just as he did for me.

Peace Be

Just as we are having this conversation with Retrotia, she can never go before the Lord and say that she didn't know because we had this conversation.

ActionJackson

Jun 10, 2007, 02:02 PM

Well said AJ!! You know when you stated about being the stumbling block because there so many preachers out there who do not know the truth but are telling people that if they just accept Christ in their heart and they will be saved, it reminds me of Lazarus in the rich man. We all know the story but let's look at these few versus in Luke Chapter 16. I am picking up where the rich man has the conversation with Abraham.
.

Baptism, in a sense, is similar to the taking of communion in that we are not to take communion unworthily. Our heart is to be in the right place or we should not take communion. Similarly, we aren't to be baptized unless we have first repented of our sins. If we have not repented of our sins, we should not be baptized. Therefore, there is more to baptism than a simple act of obedience or an "outward" show of some sort. If we only do it to "show" the world that we are being obedient, then how are we any better than the Pharisees who loved to make an outward "show" of tithing? Jesus said something to the effect that having your cup clean on the outside means nothing if it is dirty on the inside.

Tessy777

Jun 10, 2007, 05:45 PM

ActionJackson

Jun 10, 2007, 05:59 PM

When you read the scriptures you MUST first see who the scriptures were written to. They are for us all but they are WRITTEN to different people. In Acts...who was Peter talking to? The Jews. Yes, THEY needed to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They needed to recognize WHO Christ was and be identified with HIM. He was just crucified, rejected and they were JEWS! That was huge to be baptized and to be identified with him. THIS is NOT the GOSPEL. The Apostle Paul gives the Gospel to the Church and it has NOTHING to to with baptisim. Period. For heaven sakes, Paul even mentions that he baptized certain families but couldn't remember if he did others. If baptism is required, once again, we would have to rely on another human being to do it for us. In other words, you can't just get saved with you and the Lord Jesus! His work would NOT be enough and it would require another human and another act other than his death on the cross. Another insult to my savior who finished the work. FINISHED THE WORK! This is an age old debate and I am certainly not going to change anyones mind, I am sure. But I did feel the need to say that. By the way, this should probably be a new thread.

Well the verse does say that we should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (no other name) and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If, as you say, it is not necessary to be baptized and that being baptized is an insult to your saviour, then should we all get out our black markers and erase all the verses pointing towards baptism? Are there any other Scriptural instructions that you believe God included in His Word erroneously? Peter and the Apostles baptized many... were they insulting Jesus Christ by so doing? How about John the Baptist... was he an insult to your saviour?

Secondly, the men present in Acts chapter 2 were "men of Israel." They were Israelites. The word "Jew" is representative of one of the 12 tribes of Israel that being the tribe of Judah. All men of Judah are Israelites but not all Israelites are of the tribe of Judah. Paul identified himself as an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin... not Judah.

Since this is a thread concerning whether Christ is God or not I think the discussion is appropriate. Since we are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then by doing so, we clearly see Him as God.

Wangdoodle

Jun 10, 2007, 07:30 PM

Retrotia

Jun 10, 2007, 08:28 PM

My second part is this. I can you Retotria and anyone else that God is real. Unless I had tasted of the goodness of the Lord and had not experienced the water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost I might be swayed with what man has told me but now I know to much and I know that God is real because he dwells and abides down on the inside. Glory to be God!! God is the same day today yesterday and forever more!! His word never changes!

I pray that the Lord open your understanding just as he did for me.
Peace Be
Just as we are having this conversation with Retrotia, she can never go before the Lord and say that she didn't know because we had this conversation.
I did not say that getting baptized wasn't important. I said you were mature for thinking it is.
I said it wasn't a requirement for salvation. This is important to me because my husband and 2 daughters are saved-but not baptized (yet) So I hope you see why I like to get my facts straight.
About me, do not worry. I have been baptized, twice. But there was a year between being saved and baptism.
Now you see another's opinion also. So you can put more or less emphasis on what you choose.
God Loves You. Take care.

ActionJackson

Jun 11, 2007, 04:22 AM

I did not say that getting baptized wasn't important. I said you were mature for thinking it is.
I said it wasn't a requirement for salvation. This is important to me bc my husband and 2 daughters are saved-but not baptized (yet) So I hope u see why I like to get my facts straight.
About me, do not worry. I have been baptized, twice. But there was a year between being saved and baptism.
Now you see another's opinion also. So you can put more or less emphasis on what you choose.
God Loves You. Take care.

I can see the dilemma you are in. You do see the importance of baptism but since your family has not yet been baptized yet, you feel at least some concern. You concern, alone, shows that you understand the importance of baptism. I pray that you urge you husband to be baptized if he has a repentant spirit and loves Jesus Christ. I would also urge your daughters to do the same when they come of age. I wouldn't worry too much though, Jesus Christ is a loving God.

ActionJackson

Jun 11, 2007, 04:37 AM

Hi Tessy777. On the "Rate this Answer" button, you hit "agree" but disagreed. That's okay... no big deal. I was just curious as to whether you believed that the Bible is the Word of God. Also, do you believe that Jesus Christ God?

You are right, we probably agree on more than we disagree on but one thing that we are both doing (hopfully) is seeking the truth. I want to know what God expects of His children.

I had asked a question in my earlier post. Since you believe that baptism is totally unnecessary, should we black out those verses concerning that topic?

Tessy777

Jun 11, 2007, 06:20 AM

Action,

You misunderstood me. I do believe baptism is important. I believe anyone who professes Christ SHOULD be baptised. However, it is not a requirement for salvation. I have friends who believe it is... thats OK. I don't like to fight and argue of the WORD! It is too important and I have found that I haven't changed anyone's mind. I pray the Holy Spirit will do that for me or for them... whoever may be in error. Is Jesus GOD? He most certainly is... he is the Great I AM! How awesome is that... anyway?

No, we don't black out any verses. We put them in context, we understand who they are written to, when they were written and why they were written. It is about learning to understand how to read the Bible properly. Should we black out this verse? What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and THOU SHALT BE SAVED and they house. IF I read that correctly, it doesn't mention baptism AND all the times the apostle Paul gives the gospel, never ever does he say baptism is a requirement. It just isn't there.

Tessy777

Jun 11, 2007, 06:42 AM

One last thing Action, Jesus Christ is a loving GOD but he doesn't change his mind! IF baptism is a requirement for salvation (and it isn't) you should be advising people to be VERY CONCERNED if they haven't been baptized because if they did die... Jesus wouldn't be enough. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say it is "IMPORTANT" that is an understatement. According to YOUR belief the man isn't saved... it is a TAD more than just important. You should have her fast, pray, and fast some more for him to see the "light". By the way, your belief is poppycock. My JESUS paid the price in full, my responisbility? I can accept him as paying my debt in full or reject it... he doesn't need my help in anyway shape or form... for salvation. He needs my faith, not my help.

As far as baptism goes, if you are in Christ you are OUT of the will of God if you aren't baptized. It is disobedience to the Lord... it has NOTHING to do with salvation!

Tessy777

Jun 11, 2007, 06:56 AM

One REALLY last thing Action,

Do you understand that when Peter preached to the Jews to repent and be bapitzed for the remission of sins, that he had NO CLUE what GRACE was. He had NO CLUE of the "CHURCH". He was still looking for the KINGDOM... (Jesus to come back and set up the kingdom where he would rule and reign?) He was talking to JEWS! Why is that such a difficult concept?? Oh Jesus talked about being "born again" but just like Nicodemous, he didn't have a clue. He didn't even KNOW WHAT a CHRISTIAN was. He was a JEW... he was STILL keeping the LAW! He didn't know that Gentiles were going to be offered salvation, he didn't have a clue. Go back and read it, what had been revealed to him up to that point!? Who was he talking to? You really have to understand this or you make the Bible a real mess to figure out! Go to Chapter 3, the first verse... he is going to TEMPLE! (fyi... the "church doesn't go to temple!) Jesus hadn't revealed everything to the 12.yet... it was a BRAND NEW thing that Jesus was doing... get out of ACTS... keep going. It does get EVEN better. READ Romans.. it is the book right after ACTS. Salvation is now being offered to the GENTILES! Here is a thought READ ALL OF THE BOOKS that the Apostle Paul wrote to the "church doesnt go to temple!) Jesus hadn't revealed everything to the 12.yet...it was a BRAND NEW thing that Jesus was doing...get out of ACTS ....keep going. It does get EVEN better. READ Romans..it is the book right after ACTS. Salvation is now being offered to the GENTILES! Here is a thought READ ALL OF THE BOOKS that the Apostle Paul wrote to the "... then come talk to me about baptism as a requirement for salvation.!

Do you understand that the GOSPELS don't even have the Gospel in them? They are books about the life of Jesus, his death, his burial, his resurrection... but how to be saved? Not there. Did you know that you are completely in error talking about John the Baptist? Did JOHN the BAPTIST understand the GOSPEL of CHRIST in the four Gospels... uhhhh NO! REPENT and Be Baptized for the... what was it.. oh yeah... KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND! Hello!! Nothing there about salvation.

ActionJackson

Jun 11, 2007, 06:46 PM

Jesus was both fully human, and fully divine. He was BOTH , hard to wrap ur mind around it but its just like the Holy trinity and that there is no begining to God, for he always existed and always will exist. Just things we puny humans can't understand completely.

Odd name for someone who has the understanding and insight that you do. I agree with your post but I hope I don't fall in the crosshairs of your namesake.

ActionJackson

Jun 11, 2007, 06:53 PM

Action,

you misunderstood me. I do believe baptism is important. I believe anyone who professes Christ SHOULD be baptised. However, it is not a requirement for salvation. I have friends who believe it is...thats ok. I don't like to fight and argue of the WORD! It is too important and I have found that I haven't changed anyone's mind. I pray the Holy Spirit will do that for me or for them....whoever may be in error. Is Jesus GOD? He most certainly is....he is the Great I AM! How awesome is that ...anyway?

No, we don't black out any verses. We put them in context, we understand who they are written to, when they were written and why they were written. It is about learning to understand how to read the Bible properly. Should we black out this verse? What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and THOU SHALT BE SAVED and they house. IF i read that correctly, it doesn't mention baptism AND all the times the apostle Paul gives the gospel, never ever does he say baptism is a requirement. It just isn't there.

I apologize for arguing with you. I come from a family of 8 siblings and that's about the only way we passed the time, generally speaking. You are my sister in Christ. We are on the same path. I do put more importance on baptism that you do but as long as you agree that it should be done, no harm no foul. I do hope that if someone decides to be baptized that they don't do it with a flip attitude or just because their friend is doing it or for show, etc. I hope that they understand that they are about to enter into a relationship with their Saviour and their Creator. I believe it should be taken seriously just like taking communion should be done with the proper attitude and desire. God bless you, your family, your community, and your church.

jayb09

Jun 12, 2007, 08:57 AM

Tessy 777. I have read your posts. Quite honestly, we agree to disagree. You apparently feel that scriptures are there for us to read but not abide by and that we can select certain scriptures to abide by. Believing is a part of it yes. But there is instructions for after you believe in Mark 16:16 Jesus Christ said, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and these signs shall follow them that believe... In my name shall they cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues -If I am not mistaken, that is clearly telling me about salvation because it explained what I need to do to be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

So you believe but now what? James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble

Peter preached the same gospel to the Gentiles in Caesarea that he preached to the Jews and the other nations at Jerusalem, on the day of Pentecost, they received the Holy Ghost; spake with other tongues; and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Read Acts 10:44-48). The scriptures were not just for us to read and think that that type of salvation was just for the jews. The enemy would like for us to think that.

The Apostle Paul met John's Disciples who had not received salvation , and said unto them, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you Believed?" (Acts 19:5). You have to believe according to the scriptures. (St. John 7:38). John's Disciples said unto Paul, We have not so much heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Paul said unto them, "unto what then were you baptized?" Paul went on to explain the truth unto them, about the baptism. They obeyed and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in other tongues, (Acts 19:1-6).

Nowhere in all of the Bible can it be found where God's Ministers told the people bow their heads and raise their hands and receive Jesus right where they are, without mentioning repentance, baptism or receiving the Holy Ghost.

Apostle Paul said: "If an angel from heaven preached any other gospel except that which they have preached, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8-9.

Romans 6:3-4, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." As Jesus Christ, through his own death condemned sin in the flesh and raised by the glory of the Father, you also, when you are baptized into Jesus Christ, being baptized into his death, can rise and walk in the newness of life.

Col. 3:17; "And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him."

I will conclude by saying this? How can we just some scripture forget all the rest and say this one seems right. I'll just believe. What are your works after you believe because it is written that Faith without works is dead. The bible does not contradict itself. In other words there are not mulitple ways for salvation. We have to study all verses and pray for understanding in all things.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Peace be

Retrotia

Jun 12, 2007, 12:03 PM

I agree to agree with Tessy777!

Belief in Christ (faith) saves you- not works!
Did Jesus Command Baptism in Order to be Saved? (http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/baptism.html)

It may be a command- like loving your neighbor- but not loving a neighbor will not condemn you either.
I have more from the Bible if you need more proof that salvation is not about baptism.

nanajo1

Jun 12, 2007, 03:36 PM

I don't believe that God is Jesus, I believe that God is what many perceive as the heavenly father and that Jesus is his Son. The reason that I say many perceive his as the heavenly father is because there are those among the religious background who believe that there is also a Goddess.

Before the Christian body begins to slam that idea, think about this. God has asked us not to judge others for how they believe in him or perceive him. Who are we to question that? Every country has their own way of perceiveing God, so does each nationality. God made us in his image, and he made, whites, blacks, asian, etc, etc etc. we are all different. Some believe in the way that the Jewish do, others believe as the Muslim, etc. We are all gods children, whether we are protestant, catholic, Muslim, or even Pagan. He doesn't love one any less than the other

nanajo1

Jun 12, 2007, 03:43 PM

Shel, I don't see that anyone has to be saved if they have a believe in a higher spirit, period. How are we saved? Do we have soldiers surrounding our cities fighting for us? Do we accept christianity as others want us to? Can they give us a guarantee that their religion is the one that will see us into heaven? We all go to heaven whether we are muslim, jewish, catholic, christian or pagan. That is the unique thing about God, he made each person in his image, that means the blacks, chinese, Natives, etc. so therefore, God must also be of the same religion as each person that he has put on this earth, and he has asked that we not judge but to love, accept and to believe

ActionJackson

Jun 12, 2007, 06:32 PM

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Peter preached the same gospel to the Gentiles in Caesarea that he preached to the Jews and the other nations at Jerusalem, on the day of Pentecost, they received the Holy Ghost; spake with other tongues; and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Read Acts 10:44-48).
The Apostle Paul met John's Disciples who had not received salvation , and said unto them, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you Believed?" (Acts 19:5). (St. John 7:38). John's Disciples said unto Paul, We have not so much heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Paul said unto them, "unto what then were you baptized?" Paul went on to explain the truth unto them, about the baptism. They obeyed and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in other tongues, (Acts 19:1-6).
Romans 6:3-4, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." As Jesus Christ, through his own death condemned sin in the flesh and raised by the glory of the Father, you also, when you are baptized into Jesus Christ, being baptized into his death, can rise and walk in the newness of life.

Peace be

Howdy Jayb09. Apparently, we're the minority when it comes to our understanding of the importance of baptism and God's divinity. I guess we just have to remember that there is a broad path and a narrow path.

I came across another passage that may add to your substantial armory. Acts 8:35-38, "Then Phillip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him (the eunuch) Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch said, 'See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?' And Phillip said, 'If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.' And he answered and said, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.' And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Phillip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

Clearly, Phillip was not prepared to baptize the eunuch unless the eunuch first professed that he believed in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

During this study, I came across a sinister thing. I have a collection of many different versions of the Bible. When I looked up this verse in the "New American Bible (not the New American Standard Bible) which is published by the Catholic Press, I found that verse 37 was totally omitted. The number 37 was in brackets [37] but the verse, itself, was gone. I then looked in the "New Jerusalem Bible" and found that it was omitted from that version as well. In fact, when you read the passage, the verses are numbered like they are in other Bibles except in this case it was numbered :35, :36, :38, :39. The number :37 was simply not there. The 37th verse of Acts chapter 8 was purposely removed. That is a major sin against God and His Word. The New Jerursalem Bible is a popular Bible used by a mega-church that bases many of its beliefs on tradition rather than the Word of God. Apparently, verse 37 must have gotten in the way of one of its traditions. It's also missing from the "New International Version." Again, the number 37 and the corresponding verse are missing.

With so many "new" Christians using the "new" versions of the Bible, it's no wonder that that they discount so much of God's Word. Satan has certainly done his job and continues to do so.

ordinaryguy

Jun 12, 2007, 08:21 PM

During this study, I came across a sinister thing.

The 37th verse of Acts chapter 8 was purposely removed. That is a major sin against God and His Word.

Satan has certainly done his job and continues to do so.
AJ--Some food for thought. In the New King James Version, the footnote to verse 37 says:
"NU-text and M-text omits this verse. It is found in Western texts, including the Latin tradition."
The preface describes the manuscript texts referred to in some detail, and ends with the following statement:
With the assistance of these footnotes, which show lines of textual divergence more fully than commonly provided with English language versions of the Bible, it is trusted that readers will be enabled to better appreciate the substance and degree of variation in the manuscript sources of the New Testament.
So it turns out that some manuscripts include the text and at least two significant ones don't include it. In a situation like this what do you think is the proper thing for a translator to do?

Are you really sure it's Satan who's responsible for the choices that some translators have made to leave it out? Is it Satan's doing that multiple manuscripts of various ages and sources have survived and that they aren't all identical in every particular? I'm always fascinated to know people's assessment of how much of what exists and what happens is Satan's doing.

Tessy777

Jun 12, 2007, 08:36 PM

Shel, i dont see that anyone has to be saved if they have a believe in a higher spirit, period. How are we saved? do we have soldiers surrounding our cities fighting for us? Do we accept christianity as others want us to? Can they give us a guarantee that their religion is the one that will see us into heaven? We all go to heaven whether we are muslim, jewish, catholic, christian or pagan. That is the unique thing about God, he made each person in his image, that means the blacks, chinese, Natives, etc. so therefore, God must also be of the same religion as each person that he has put on this earth, and he has asked that we not judge but to love, accept and to believe

JESUS SAID... I am the way, the truth and the life... NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME. John 14:6

I didn't say it... so don't get ticked at me. Either Jesus is God and He is truth or he is a liar. That is something you need to decide.

ActionJackson

Jun 12, 2007, 08:43 PM

AJ--Some food for thought. In the New King James Version, the footnote to verse 37 says:
The preface describes the manuscript texts referred to in some detail, and ends with the following statement:
So it turns out that some manuscripts include the text and at least two significant ones don't include it. In a situation like this what do you think is the proper thing for a translator to do?

Are you really sure it's Satan who's responsible for the choices that some translators have made to leave it out? Is it Satan's doing that multiple manuscripts of various ages and sources have survived and that they aren't all identical in every particular? I'm always fascinated to know people's assessment of how much of what exists and what happens is Satan's doing.

The word "Satan" simply means adversary. There are many satans and there is Satan. Regardless of how you see satan, I do believe that there are those who seek to alter or even destroy God's word for one reason or the other. Satan may use some people without them even knowing it.

I believe that the Textus Receptus is the most complete and correct English translation of God's Word. If you were to study the way in which the Authorized King James Bible came to be you may very well appreciate it a great deal more than you currently do (not that you don't but I say that in a general sense). The translators went to painstaking length to get an exact translation and they checked and cross checked each other's work. The process took years. I have several books that discuss the various translations of the Bible. I strongly urge you to get a book called "New Age Versions" by Riplinger. Super good book but long. If you like to read, you will like it.

Anyway, the fact that the new translations, using the very same numbering system as the King James, simply skipped over that verse. I find that very fishy. If they didn't believe that it belongs in the Bible, then verse 38 should have become 37 and 39 would have become 38 ,etc.

jayb09

Jun 13, 2007, 04:40 AM

Tessy 777 and Retroia. It is certainly not my intention to offend. I often find that when people speak on about different things in the bible that some may not agree with it causes strife and that certainly is not my intention. As stated previously, we agree to disagree. I know that the Lord is soon to come and I am trying to make my calling and election sure.
I leave you with a scripture that I read last night

Bear in mind that I have never given you something made up by man but everything I have provided is in the scriptures. You both stated you are saved because you believed if I am not mistaken. I leave you with this scriputure

Galation 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?
Galatians 2:17E ven so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Galatians 2: 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

Glory be to God! The word of god is quick, powerful and sharper than any two-edge sword

Peace be unto you!

nanajo1

Jun 13, 2007, 07:11 AM

JESUS SAID....I am the way, the truth and the life....NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME. John 14:6

I didn't say it.....so don't get ticked at me. Either Jesus is God and He is truth or he is a liar. That is something you need to decide.

Tessy you were not being attacked. But as You said yourself, you need to decided what is a lie and what is the truth.
In the eyes of god wea re too treat all who are on this earth equal. As you also quoted, No man comes to the father but by me!
That means all men, women and children despite their religion, if they believe in god and jesus then they will pass. And those who also believe in a goddess or what ever the Indians think of as their higher power will also pass

If you read the bible closely instead of quoting it, each bible is different, as has been pointed out, all religions have their own intrepretation, WHY? Because Not one of us were there at the time of creation, the bible was written by men over time to bring some form of rules and regulation to what people do or perceive. w
Will the man who believes in the christian god get into heaven and the catholic be left behind, NO. Will the Jew, or the Menonite, NO. No one religion is any beter than the other that is all I was saying. As I was also trying to state, if we all folled in gods foot steps, we would not be judgmental of others because of their beliefs. THAT IS WHAT I WAS SAYING and I am sorry that you feel that I was attacking you sweety. I love all man, woman and child, despite their beliefs, likes, dislikes, color or creed.

jayb09

Jun 13, 2007, 01:52 PM

Retroia your statement surprise me "It may be a command- like loving your neighbor- but not loving a neighbor will not condemn you either." That is surprising statement because it completely contradicts the word of God. As servants of God we are supposed to abide by the scriputures. We are supposed to abide by God's commandments but you are stating that we don't

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Psalm 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Ephesians 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man

There is punishment written in the scriptures for not obeying his commandment

Isaiah 48:18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! Then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea

Amos 2:4 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

Romans 3:4 says: "Let God be true and every man a liar."

I have more from the Bible if you need more proof that salvation is not about baptism

jayb09

Jun 13, 2007, 02:33 PM

I also meant to address your statement Retroia when you said "I have more from the Bible if you need more proof that salvation is not about baptism". I am actually still waiting for the proof because thus far I have not seen any proof but that baptism is a requirement

ActionJackson

Jun 13, 2007, 06:39 PM

Tessy 777 and Retroia. It is certainly not my intention to offend. I often find that when people speak on about different things in the bible that some may not agree with it causes strife and that certainly is not my intention. As stated previously, we agree to disagree. I know that the Lord is soon to come and I am trying to make my calling and election sure.
I leave you with a scripture that I read last night

Bear in mind that I have never given you something made up by man but everything I have provided is in the scriptures. You both stated you are saved because you believed if I am not mistaken. I leave you with this scriputure

Galation 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Galations 2:17E ven so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Galations 2: 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

Glory be to God!! The word of god is quick, powerful and sharper than any two-edge sword

Peace be unto you!

Very good verses but they are all from James rather than Galatians. I've already used these but to no avail... maybe coming from you, the seed will be planted. God bless.

Retrotia

Jun 13, 2007, 07:30 PM

Jayb09,

I think you didn't read the link with my post. Who are you to judge now? About loving neighbors? It means doing them no harm.

This is my last post about faith is what's required for salvation. I won't engage in foolish arguments.
Peace Brother!

John 6:35-51 (New International Version)
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Lacey5765

Jun 13, 2007, 07:39 PM

I like this example of Grace and works. “One day, a group of small boys were swimming. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, they were learning to swim; for none could take more than a few strokes. Just below them a short distance down the stream was a treacherous hole much beyond their depth. Into this, either through bravado or accident, one daring youngster either plunged or fell. He became helpless to save himself; and for a moment his companions were powerless to aid him. Fortunately, one with presence of mind and quick action, jerked a long stick from a willow fence and held one end of it toward the drowning lad. The latter grasped it, held on tightly, and was saved.

“All the boys declared that the venturesome lad owed his life to the boy who furnished the means of rescue.”

Jesus is like the rescuer and his atonement is like the stick. Jesus offers us the Atonement as the way to receive forgiveness. When we repent, we reach out to accept the Atonement just as the drowning boy reached out to grasp the stick. If we accept the Atonement by repenting, we will be forgiven and not have to continue suffering for our sins. We can learn from our mistakes and continue to progress. We will be stronger and wiser if we have overcome our faults and have learned from our experiences.

There are those who claim that no one will sink and be lost if he will look to Jesus on the shore and say, 'I believe.' There are others who declare that every one must by his own efforts swim to the shore or be lost forever. The real truth is that both of these extreme views are incorrect. Christ redeemed all men from death which was brought upon them through no act of theirs, but He will not save men from their personal transgressions who will put forth no effort themselves, any more than the young rescuer on the river bank could have saved the drowning lad if the latter had not seized the means provided him.

Neither can man save himself without accepting the means provided by Christ for man's salvation.”

ActionJackson

Jun 13, 2007, 07:42 PM

Jayb09,

This is my last post about faith is what's required for salvation. I won't engage in foolish arguments.
."

I don't believe that seeking the truth and discussing God's Word is foolish but that's just may opinion. I do understand the feeling you're experiencing. I had no idea until I joined this forum just how disjointed the Christian community really is. First of all, I rarely find two people who read from the same "versions" of the Bible so it's almost impossible to share ideas when the various versions spin God's Word in so many directions. Then, I am amazed at how much disdain for the Old Testament there is within the Christian community. I am literally shocked. I thought that all Christians loved the Whole Testament of God but every time I speak of God's word, some 3rd grader spits out this Buddhist chant "yeah, but that's the Old Testament, yeah, but that's the Old Testament," etc. It's literally heartbreaking to realize just how much people hate the "Old" Word of God. Most don't seem to realize that Christ and the Apostles quoted from the Old Testament all the time. Anyway, see you.

Marily

Jun 14, 2007, 05:16 AM

We should correct each other out of love, I was almost certain that you are going to bite off AJ's head. If someone disagree with you concerning the bible, the best thing you can do for that person is to pray for them ;)

jayb09

Jun 14, 2007, 03:18 PM

Hi Retroia,

I am certainly not trying to argue with you nor am I casting judgment upon you. You made a statement that I knew was inaccurate according to the scriptures. I did not express any of my own opinion but showed you what it said in the scriputures. Your statement was that not obeying the commandments does not condemn you and according to the bible, that is completely untrue. Please don't take offense.

jayb09

Jun 14, 2007, 03:29 PM

Retrotia

Jun 14, 2007, 06:10 PM

Hi Retoia,

I read the article you left the link too. Quite honestly, I am a little confused because the article seems to go on about how the author does not believe that anyone has to be baptized to be saved but near the end of the article says " Yes, I believe one should be baptized in obedience to Jesus' command. " That's a direct quote. So if Jesus said it and the author admits ,it how does anyone feel that they should not comply because you don't have to obey all of God's commandments? I'm confused as to what the writer is actually trying to convey and quite honestly. He belives in it but yet he doesn't
" Yes, I believe one should be baptized in obedience to Jesus' command. However, we should also love our neighbor for the same reason. I know that we do not keep this entire command, because only God can demonstrate this kind of unconditional love. Does this mean that we will lose our salvation? No!"
__________________________________________________ ______________
What I am saying is that baptism is works- works whether they be obeying the Moral Laws (10 Commandments) or instructions from Jesus' teaching. Now, this person is also saying that baptism is not required for salvation, period. Now, once one is saved, this is when we try to follow all the teachings (works) as a good & faithful servant. We sometimes have trespasses- but if we repent (bc we were convicted in our Spirit) then the Lord is faithful to forgive us.
If someone commits adultery(a Christian) are they condemned? No, convicted but not condemned. Can repent. (OR, have more serious consequences than just dealing with your spouse- in THIS LIFE! )
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Baptism is of works. If not being baptized would have condemned one then Jesus would have put it right out there with the unforgivable sin(Rejection of Jesus Christ)

ActionJackson

Jun 14, 2007, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Marily
We should correct each other out of love, I was almost certain that you are going to bite off AJ's head. If someone disagree with you concerning the bible, the best thing you can do for that person is to pray for them

Or better yet, study and end up agreeing. Your heart is in the right place Marily. Each of us were given different gifts of the Holy Ghost (assuming that we all repented and were baptized in Christ's name). You have a healing spirit and a calming affect. I have another gift that may not be quite as easily acceptable by some but plays a part in the overall picture nonetheless. Someone is always trying to "bite my head off" but that's okay. It usually means that I'm pushing a few buttons. If everyone that entered this forum always agreed with each other all the time, we would bore ourselves to sleep. I like the clashing of steel and the wielding of shields. It's fun.

ActionJackson

Jun 14, 2007, 06:33 PM

Tessy777 agrees: someone who "believes" in Jesus wants to follow him. Repentance is something I WANT to do because of what HE did for me.

Like I want to obey the Commands of our Heavenly Father because I want to please Him. Same difference. I believe in God and I believe that Jesus Christ is God and I want to do what God wants me to do. He wants me to love Him and my neighbors by not stealing from them, by honoring my parents, by putting Him in the supreme position as the only God, by following His example and resting every 7 days, by not wanting what my neighbor has, by not killing people, etc.

""And, behold, one came and said unto Him, 'Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?' And He (Jesus Christ) said unto him, 'Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'" Matthew 19:16-17

Tessy777

Jun 17, 2007, 11:05 AM

AJ

This is kind of off the thread (but many of these posts are off thread) you say observe the sabbath. Does that mean Friday evening to Satruday?

ActionJackson

Jun 17, 2007, 12:07 PM

AJ

this is kinda off the thread (but many of these posts are off thread) you say observe the sabbath. does that mean Friday evening to Satruday?

Yes ma'am. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is the true, biblical Sabbath.

yor1

Jun 23, 2007, 01:40 PM

Jesus never actually said that he himself was God but sent by God..
There are one or two controversial translations that suggest that the epistle writers were saying that Jesus is God but not so clearly that one should stake ones life upon.
There is never a discussion by any Gospel preacher presenting Jesus as God but rather the son of God.. The "only born son of God" ( Begotten) Monogenes( greek) tranlsated when not used of Jesus as " the only born child" " only born son" " only born daughter".
It is very clear that the church came to believe that Jesus was God But not so clear that this was taught by anyone in the Bible.
Image of the invisible God.. Does not make it a claim to be the invisible God..
Before Abraham Came to be so I am the one.. would be a fair rendition of The John 8 text The Church has applied this text to its theology and we are taught that it reflects a claim to be the very God that Jesus came to reconcile us to..
But you will find that nowhere in the scriptures is anyone required to believe that Jesus is God in order to be reconciled to God by Jesus' suffering and death and God resurrecting Him from the dead and giving him total authority over Gods creation.
The Gospel is really simple.
Confess ( make Jesus your master and confess him so) and believe from your heart that God raised him from death...
The suffering and death of Jesus removes Sin from the stained soul by faith.. But God Forgives any and all who will turn from sin... It is the removal of sin from the soul that enables reconciliation to God and it is this cleansed state that prepares the individual for Gods Annoiting of His indwelling spirit.
But there is never a requirement to believe that Jesus is God in order to receive Gods Grace and blessing.

Morganite

Jun 30, 2007, 04:19 PM

Morganite

Jun 30, 2007, 04:19 PM

Morganite

Jun 30, 2007, 04:23 PM

Yes ma'am. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is the true, biblical Sabbath.

It is the Isralitish Sabbath, but Chrisitans met together on the First day of the week - Kiriagi - the Lord's Day, and thus it was from the earliest times of Christianity.

There are some groups of Judaizers who do not accept Jesu' finality in fulfilling the law and lay the obsrvances of Isralitish ritual on Christians, but it is not proper to do so.

Acutally - think about this - no one knows which day was the original Sabbath for the Bible says only the seventh day of seven days is to be a day of rest. Who knows what day it was when God called the evening and the morning the first day?

M:)RGANITE

yor1

Jul 1, 2007, 04:11 AM

yor1

Jul 1, 2007, 04:28 AM

yor1

Jul 1, 2007, 05:27 AM

Jesus never identified himself as " THE I AM" that's a tradition introduced by the church.
The text in John 8 only ever says that "before Abraham Was I am".

The context is that of The Hebrew recognition of Abraham as the head of the Race... Anfd Jesus identifies himself as that Head having been made so before Abraham.. Its not a Play back on the words spoken tomoses at all.
In the Hebrew one might us e the term I am that I am... But better it would be said.. The ever existent one.. But even this wopuld be incorrect as Moses wrote in picture words not a direct language. Then his writings would never have said I am.. rather something like the ever existent one.. Anyway The septuagint written 300 years before Christ does not use the term I am.. The Greek here in Exodus says I am the being.. say the Being has sent you... IT does not use the common term ego eimi in repetition.. the main part of this is rendered " THE BEING"
Those who would use the Idea that the Hebrews used the septuagint during The time of Jesus would not find support for any identification as the " I AM"
There is no common reference in the Jewish culture that thinks of GOD YHVH as the " I AM"
In fact the term used in other parts of the NT are rendered "I am the one" or "I am He"..
Not as some claim " I exist" it's the most common self identification phrase of almost any language.. I am Bob.. I am He... I am that one... Certainly one cannot find reference to the single use of this phrase in Exodus...
But looking at the text one can clearly see that Jesus is identifying with their head.. Abraham and taking importance from Him.They considered this to be a blasphemous act.. Abraham after all was the one they recognized tohave begun their journey... He was the one Jesus used to identify the place of peace and rest.. Abrahams Bossom..
There is not need to impose what is not there as the church often does in its attempts to make claims for its theology...

Morganite

Jul 9, 2007, 08:37 AM

The Elohim part of your argument answered at the following site.

ELOHIM Singular or Plural (http://halleluyah.org/Elohim%20Singular%20or%20Plural.htm)

Excerpt:

"Elohim. G-d, gods, judges, angels. ... The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of G-d. This is seen in the fact that the noun 'elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular. ... The term occurs in the general sense of deity some 2,570 times....by Harris, Archer, & Waltke; Moody Press, Chicago; 1980, Vol. 1; Article: Elohim; page 44, #93c).

The so called plural majesty has no connection to anything ancient, and is not found anywhere in the world until fairly recent times. It is unknown to the Hebrews, Egyprians, Babylonians and all other ancient kingship nations.

Elohim means 'god ' 'male' 'plural.' It is properly rendered 'the gods,' but it is impossible to ascribe any particular number as there is no indication of number, only plural and masculine.

M:)

Tessy777

Jul 9, 2007, 08:59 AM

It really doesnt matter to me because Jesus was sent by God to save us due to his grace and mercy, God sent his son. So when it all boils down, it really doesnt matter if he was God, hes a special human being and I praise him as Lord that love us all and continues to love us and bless us. I see him daily
I disagree! IT DOES matter. You can't boil it all down to HIM being "a special human being". HE IS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!! There is a difference. My children are "special human beings"... HE IS KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, and BEFORE ABRAHAM... "I AM." Oh... and one day... EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that JESUS IS LORD.

Moganite - Then... Shel would be WRONG! That is my point. Intolerant? I know, I've been called that before. I believe in absolute truth.. not a popular idea these days... so sue me.

Morganite

Jul 9, 2007, 09:25 AM

Jesus never identified himself as " THE I AM" thats a tradition introduced by the church.
The text in John 8 only ever says that "before Abraham Was I am".

Then his writings would never have said I am..rather something like the ever existent one.. Anyways The Septuagint written 300 years before Christ does not use the term I am.. The Greek here in Exodus says I am the being.. say the Being has sent you...IT does not use the common term ego eimi in repetition.. the main part of this is rendered " THE BEING"
Those who would use the Idea that the Hebrews used the Septuagint during The time of Jesus would not find support for any identification as the " I AM"
There is no common reference in the Jewish culture that thinks of GOD YHVH as the " I AM"
in fact the term used in other parts of the NT are rendered "I am the one" or "I am He" ..
not as some claim " I exist" its the most common self identification phrase of almost any language.. I am Bob.. I am He....I am that one....Certainly one cannot find reference to the single use of this phrase in Exodus...
But looking at the text one can clearly see that Jesus is identifying with their head.. Abraham and taking importance from Him.

If I could add my two cents here.

Jesus could have said, 'before Abraham was I AM' or <I AM was before Abraham.

The tetragrammaton yhvh is Hebrew for "He that is," in other words, "I AM," meaning the verb 'to be' as he told Moshe, Tell them that "I AM" = "he who IS" has sent you.

Whether this is a proper name is moot, but it is most likely an acceptable description for "The Living God." Hebrews considered yhvh or 'lhm to be the only living God, and all the rest imaginary. Thus, Hebrew usage supports the use of the term I AM to mean yhvh incarnated as Jesus.

The focus on the English counterpart has to be on the meaning of 'AM," which is the verb "TO BE." That is exactly the same as saying "I am Alive," "I live," "I am the one," etc, and arguments against that view are strictly semantic and is rooted in English comprehension rather than in Classical Hebrew, which is where the argument must be made, and the only place it can be made.

Now as to the suggestion that Jesus is looking to Abraham as the head, nothing could be further from the truth.

No Jew claims to look to Abraham for anything other than descent. Jews, and ancient Israel, looked past Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and even Moshe to God, and to God alone. Jesus was making an affirmation that he was the 'existent one' - the 'living God' known to their fathers, and that he predated Abram.

The sense of the argument is that the Jews at the time of Jesus told him that they had all they needed because they were descendants from Abraham, as if that were sufficient for their eternal salvation. Jesus disabuses them of this false notions, for it is not lineage or descent, but faith, that provides salvation, and Jesus is indicating in language that his hearers would clearly understand that he was the great yhvh, which is why they charged him with blasphemy because 'you make yourself equal to God.'.

The simplest form of understanding for the tetragrammaton is: "the existing One" George Tate has pointed out that for him "the feature that most distinguishes John from the other Gospels is the overt, spoken comparisons Christ makes between himself and details of the exodus." One such image appears in the announcement of John the Baptist, "Behold, the Lamb of God" (1:29), with its obvious allusion to the unblemished lamb prescribed for sacrifice during the Passover. When challenged by the Pharisees, Jesus meaningfully gives them one of the titles of the Old Testament Jehovah, "I Am" (8:58).

I doubt, incidentally, that many Christians perceive all that this response clearly implies about the overarching role of Christ as Jehovah [or yahweh] in the history of mankind. With equal significance he refers to himself in chapter 14 as "the way, the truth, and the life" (14:6) while in chapter 10 he is the "door" to the sheepfold (10:9) and also the "good shepherd" (10:11), thus pointing to a further scriptural antecedent in the twenty-third Psalm. In chapter 11 he is "the resurrection and the life" (11:25) and in chapter 15 "the true vine," of which Christians are the "branches," fruitful or otherwise.

They found fault with Jesus Christ because He said He was the Son of God, and made Himself equal with God. What did Jesus say? "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Gods? If He called them Gods unto whom the word of God came, and the Scriptures cannot be broken, say ye of Him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?" It was through Him that they drank of the spiritual rock. Of course He would take the honor to Himself. Jesus, if they were called Gods unto whom the word of God came, why should it be thought blasphemy that I should say I am the Son of God?

Jesus quotes: "I have said ye are Gods, and all of you are children of the Most High" (Psalm 82:6). Of this scripture, Jesus says: "Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are Gods," and he quotes with evident approval these inspired words of David, for he adds—"the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:33); that is, the scripture of David saying, "ye are Gods," is true, it cannot be gain-said. Nor is this endorsement of David's utterance weakened by the subsequent remark of Jesus, "If he called them Gods unto whom the word of God came," etc.; for, when considered in the light of all the Psalmist said, and all that Jesus said, the "called them Gods" by no manner of means signifies that they were not Gods. David said, "ye are Gods, and all of you are children of the Most High" (Psalm 82:6).

The Jews then accused Jesus of blasphemy, because he had said he was the son of God (John 10:36); in defense, Jesus quoted the passage from the Psalms where it is said of men, "ye are Gods; and all of you are children of the Most High"—as showing that he was but claiming for himself the relationship that in the law of the Jews was accorded to men—sons of God, children of the Most High, and hence, he was not a blasphemer. In other words, if the Psalmist could say to those he addressed, "all of you are children of the Most High," why should he, the Christ, be considered a blasphemer because he called himself the Son of God?

Deuteronomy 31:24
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

Moses did not write in pictographs, but most probably in paleohebrew, of which some extremely early examples have been found. It is an alphabetical - aleph-beth - language with signs that were derived from pictorial daubs [gimel for camel, beth for house, etc] , but that were at the time of Moshe identified as alphabetical characters and are clearly writing in the modern acceptance of what writing is.

Josephus in his first book against Apion ascribes the most ancient books of the Hebrew race—the Pentateuch, the five books—to Moses, and in contrasting the Hebrew literature with that of the Greeks, he says:

"We, therefore, (who are Jews) must yield to the Grecian writers as to language and eloquence of composition; but then we shall give them no such preference as to the verity of ancient history, and least of all as to that part which concerns the affairs of our several countries. As to the care of writing down the records from the earliest antiquity among the Egyptians and Babylonians; that the priests were intrusted therewith, and employed a philosophical concern about it; that they were the Chaldean priests that did so among the Babylonians, and that the Phoenicians, who were mingled among the Greeks, did especially make use of their letters both for the common affairs of life and for the delivering down the history of common transactions, I think I may omit any proof, because all men allow it so to be. But now as to our forefathers, that they took no less care about writing such records, (for I will not say they took greater care than the others I spoke of,) and that they committed that matter to their high priests and to their prophets, and that these records have been written all along down to our own times with the utmost accuracy. ... "
(Antiquity of the Jews, Flavius Josephus Against Apion, Book 1, pp. 582-583.)

The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet also know as Ktav Ivri is an offshoot of the Phoenician alphabet used to write the Hebrew language from about the 10th century BCE until it began to fall out of use in the 5th century BCE with the adoption of the Aramaic alphabet as a writing system for Hebrew and the subsequent emergence of the Hebrew alphabet.

M:)RGANITE

Morganite

Jul 9, 2007, 09:28 AM

Jesus never identified himself as " THE I AM" thats a tradition introduced by the church.
The text in John 8 only ever says that "before Abraham Was I am".

The context is that of The Hebrew recognition of Abraham as the head of the Race...Anfd Jesus identifies himself as that Head having been made so before Abraham..Its not a Play back on the words spoken tomoses at all.
In the Hebrew one might us e the term I am that I am... But better it would be said..The ever existent one.. But even this wopuld be incorrect as Moses wrote in picture words not a direct language. Then his writings would never have said I am..rather something like the ever existent one.. Anyways The septuagint writen 300 years before Christ does not use the term I am.. The Greek here in Exodus says I am the being.. say the Being has sent you...IT does not use the common term ego eimi in repetition.. the main part of this is rendered " THE BEING"
Those who would use the Idea that the Hebrews used the septuagint during The time of Jesus would not find support for any identification as the " I AM"
There is no common refernce in the Jewish culture that thinks of GOD YHVH as the " I AM"
in fact the term used in other parts of the NT are rendered "I am the one" or "I am He" ..
not as some claim " I exist" its the most common self identification phrase of almost any language.. I am Bob.. I am He....I am that one....Certainly one cannot find refernce to the single use of this phrase in Exodus...
But looking at the text one can clearly see that Jesus is identifying with their head.. Abraham and taking importance from Him.They considered this to be a blasphemous act..Abraham after all was the one they recognized tohave begun their journey ...He was the one Jesus used to identify the place of peace and rest.. Abrahams Bossom..
There is not need to impose what is not there as the church often does in its attempts to make claims for its theology...

Clearly Jesus DID identify himself as "I AM," which is why he was charged with blasphemey.

M:)RGANITE

Morganite

Jul 9, 2007, 10:12 AM

[

John 13:1
1 ¶ NOW before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 13:2
2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;

But He does say in the Gospels that the last meal was a passover meal.LK22.. MK 14 MT 26 Not sure I would want to to that dismissed because John presents it with some other description..
The passover celebration which Jesus desired ( longed to celebrate with his disciples) does not change the establishment of the memorial meal or The fact that Jesus becomes the passover lamb and supercedes the Law and brings in the life of the spirit in reconciliation to God.
The Law and the prophets were until John since then the the Kingdom of God is coming by force..Any attempt to reestablish the points of the law only go to reveal that someone has missed the point or is treying to bring into bondage.
For freedom Christ has set you free.. You are free from the law only do not use your freedom as an occassion for the flesh but by love serve one another..As you have noted..

Controversy has been rife for many centuries as to the day of the passover feast in the week of our Lord's death. That He was crucified on Friday, the day before the Jewish Sabbath, and that He rose a resurrected Being on Sunday, the day following the Sabbath of the jews, are facts attested by the four Gospel-writers. From the three synoptists we infer that the last supper occurred on the evening of the first day of unleavened bread, and therefore at the beginning of the Jewish Friday.

That the Lord's last supper was regarded by Himself and the apostles as a passover meal appears from Matt. 26:2, 17, 18, 19 and parallel passages, Mark 14:14-16; Luke 22:11-13; as also from Luke 22:7, 15. John, however, who wrote after the synoptists and who probably had their writings before him, as is indicated by the supplementary character of his testimony or "Gospel," intimates that the last supper of which Jesus and the Twelve partook together occurred before the Feast of the Passover (John 13: 1, 2); and the same writer informs us that on the following day, Friday, the Jews refrained from entering the Roman hall of judgment, lest they be defiled and so become unfit to eat the passover (18:28).

It should be remembered that by common usage the term "Passover" was applied not only to the day or season of the observance, but to the meal itself, and particularly to the slain lamb (Matt. 26: 17; Mark 14: 12, 14, 16; Luke 22:8, 11, 13, 15; John 18:28; compare 1 Cor. 5:7). John also specifies that the day of the crucifixion was "the preparation of the passover" (19:14), and that the next day, which was Saturday, the Sabbath, "was an high day" (verse 31), that is a Sabbath rendered doubly sacred because of its being also a feast day.

Much has been written by way of attempt to explain this seeming discrepancy. No analysis of the divergent views of Biblical scholars on this subject will be attempted here; the matter is of incidental importance in connection with the fundamental facts of our Lord's betrayal and crucifixion; for brief summaries of opinions and concise arguments refer to Smith's Comprehensive Bible Dictionary, article "passover"; Edersheim's Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, pp. 480-2, and 566-8; Farrar's Life of Christ, Appendix, Excursus 10; Andrews' Life of Our Lord, and Gresswell's Dissertations.

The apparent inconsistency may be explained by any of several assumptions. Thus, first, and very probably, the Passover referred to by John, for the eating of which the priests were desirous of keeping themselves free from Levitical defilement, may not have been the supper at which the paschal lamb was eaten, but the supplementary meal, the Chagigah. This later meal, the flesh part of which was designated as a sacrifice, had come to be regarded with veneration equal to that attaching to the paschal supper. Secondly; it is held by many authorities on Jewish antiquities that before, at, and after the time of Christ, two nights were devoted yearly to the paschal observance, during either of which the lamb might be eaten, and that this extension of time had been made in consideration of the increased population, which necessitated the ceremonial slaughtering of more lambs than could be slain on a single day; and in this connection it is interesting to note that Josephus (wars, vi, ch. 9:3) records the number of lambs slain at a single Passover as 256,500. In the same paragraph, Josephus states that the lambs had to be slain between the ninth and the eleventh hour (3 to 5 p.m.).

According to this explanation, Jesus and the Twelve may have partaken of the passover meal on the first of the two evenings, and the Jews who next day feared defilement may have deferred their observance until the second. Thirdly, the Lord's last paschal supper may have been eaten earlier than the time of general observance, He knowing that night to be His last in mortality. Supporters of this view explain the message to the man who provided the chamber for the last supper, "My time is at hand" (Matt. 26:18) as indicating a special urgency for the passover observance by Christ and the apostles, before the regularly appointed day.

Some authorities assert that an error of one day had crept into the Jewish reckoning of time, and that Jesus ate the passover on the true date, while the Jews were a day behind. If "the preparation of the passover" (John 19: 14) on Friday, the day of Christ's crucifixion, means the slaughtering of the paschal lambs, our Lord, the real sacrifice of which all earlier altar victims had been but prototypes, died on the cross while the passover lambs were being slain at the temple.

M:)RGANITE

misty1947

Jul 9, 2007, 09:18 PM

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:
Hi

To answer your question. Yes because Jesus said you see me you see my father and you see my father you see me.
Misty1947

Morganite

Jul 9, 2007, 10:15 PM

Yes, I see that reference, but aren't these "authors" just Scholars & Theorists?

My preference of credible sources comes from Theologians with several degrees in Theology.

Such as?

marvin_082500

Mar 16, 2008, 09:27 PM

:confused:
Is Jesus Christ God?
Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
John said that Jesus created the world.
Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:
Arcura,

Jesus Christ is the Begotten son of God the father. Jesus is also a God. According to the Bible on Hebrews 1:8 " But to the Son He saith, Thy throne, o God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. (visit Members of the Church of God International (http://www.angdatingdaan.com) and www.esorianowordpress.com)

yor1

Mar 17, 2008, 08:39 AM

[QUOTE=Morganite]Clearly Jesus DID identify himself as "I AM," which is why he was charged with blasphemy.

I respectful beg to differ..
The text and context of John 8 is about Abraham the father of the Hebrews and thereby the Jews..
Jesus presents himself to be of more importance than Abraham and that's why they declare him to be blasphemous.. There is nothing in Jewish literature then of now that distinguishes God by the term " Ego Eimi" except the one instance with Moses..
This interchange is rendered " ego Eimi" in the Greek text but not so in the Hebrew text..
So any implication that Jesus is referring to this single text of Exodus is pretty remote..
In the Greek Grammar the use of " ego eimi" without a subject requires the assumption of a subject.. If you look at other uses of the words " ego eimi" in the scriptures including John you will find a subject " I am the light" " I am the way"
Or when used of the man born blind who says " ego eimi" being rendered correctly from Greek to English " I am He" or " I am the one"
This statement of Jesus requires the inclusion of the subject.. and in this case it would be something like " Before Abraham was the one I am the one" and they took up stones to throw at him... Why? Because he was blaspheming their tradition and beliefs that Abraham was the Father of the nation...
If you look at Paul you will see he too understands this..
The promise was to Abraham and through Abraham's seed.This seed According to Paul is Jesus and we inherit because of and through Jesus.. The promise made to Abraham..
But Jesus indicates that The promise existed before it was made to Abraham.. It existed back at the beginning with The words declared to the devil...
That Jesus would Crush the head of the devil.. This indicating to most that Jesus would defeat the devil and gain dominion.. And this we inherit by faith..
Its very clear that Jesus is not trying to establish his deity.. To do that he would have been and could have been much clearer..
To Jesus there is one true God.. His Father... And he is one with His God and Father as we are called to be one with them..
No I suggest that the church is trying to read too much into this dialogue with the Jews who would never accept the idea that a man is The God..
Like many texts that have questions when it comes to theology.. The idea that Jesus is God did not become a major issue for some time. And for sure was not presented as such by Paul.. His main concern as with the other apostles was to declare the son of the God the bringer of freedom from sin and reconciliation with The God. And the power and authority given Jesus over the whole of Creation..

So I must disagree that the text of John 8 carries with it an attachment to Exodus 3.. This "I am" theory is not carried by the Hebrew/Jewish people...

Galveston1

Mar 22, 2008, 04:55 PM

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)

yor1

Mar 23, 2008, 06:15 AM

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)
Can you tell me what Glory is and what Glory Jesus had within his Father before the world was?
I don't believe glory is a substance it is rather a way in which a thing is apprehended..
It's a thing that is attributed...

Galveston1

Mar 26, 2008, 01:51 PM

Jesus never said He is the Father. Is He deity?

Rev 1:10-15
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
(KJV)

From reading this, I think so.

faithfultojah

Mar 28, 2008, 04:52 PM

Jesus explained: “I said, I am the Son of God.” (John 10:36, AV)

And yet if I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me. 17 Also, in YOUR own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me. (john 8:16-18)

Jesus said: “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.” (John 6:38-40)

“My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.”—John 4:34.
He said: “I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30)

“Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me." (John 14:1)

But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father dispatched me. 37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure; (John 5:36, 37)

Need More? There are plenty more scriptures where Jesus claims to be sent from one higher than he is. He claims to be the Son of God, not God himself.

yor1

Mar 30, 2008, 05:54 AM

[

Jesus could have said, 'before Abraham was I AM' or
Again the self identity that is common language not a theological declaration of deity.. The Greek again uses the phrase " Ego Eimi" without object.. The translators ADD THE OBJECT.. I am HE..
Before Abraham became the one I am the one..
This makes sense in and off itself..
Jesus was the one through whom all the promises and prophecies would find their fulfillment.. He was the one for whom al things were made..
" All things where made on because of him and for him.."

Now Abraham indeed was the one from whom the Hebrews identified their origin as a people.. So to all intents and purposes he was seen as a head..
PAul himself explains this idea that the Jews held.That they thought they would gain life because they were descendents of Abraham.. He clearly states that this would not be.BUt they clearly held this Idea.. The same that they would be reflecting upon when Jesus spoke

The blasphemous claim when speaking of Jesus " making himself Equal with God"
The word might well imply
"Equal Standing" Which would reflect the authority that Jesus says he had..
And would keep the thought completely Jewish and trinitarian..

God was in Christ reconciling the world..
God was not in the rest of Mankind but in the one who came forth from the Father to redeem fallen man.. God was indeed with us , in Christ.. And God can be with you if we have Died with him and been raised to life and become partakers of the divine nature..

Not a common title and only relevant as we look for evidence to support the man created theory of God being three in person and one in being..
But Jesus only ever speaks of God as one person.. His Father.. So with that in mind one must approach the scripture guided by this..
Jesus clarifies the the misapprehension of the Jews.. " Why do you say I Blasphemy because I call myself the son of The God.."
Jesus is the life through whom the life of God is imparted to us... " I am the vine you are the Branches"
My Father is the vine dresser..

Now did Moses write in picture form?
That's not provable either way..
He was in fact a Egyptian and so educated.. They used picture form.. The Phoenicians used picture form... Had the Jews developed beyond them??
Good Question..