Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian? Maybe share some examples. I'm considering St. Paul's advice to become mature in your faith, to not need milk like a babe. I mean so many I know are constantly going over the same old themes, Garden of Eden, Moses' life story, Noah and the Ark. Constantly rehashing every little piece of Scripture (should THIS be taken literally? ) like their life depended on it. Or those I know that talk behind my back or think they can't play certain songs or use certain bad words around me. I mean, get real. Is it reaching outside yourself, truly caring about other people whether they do in return? I will consider any answers you've got.

My 1.5 cents worth in answer to the subject line:

Treat others as you would like to be treated.

i.e.: Don't Judge others, Recognize each human to be a creation/child of God, Strive to sin less tomorrow than you did today.

Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian?

Understanding and practicing your faith.


Maybe share some examples. I'm considering St. Paul's advice to become mature in your faith, to not need milk like a babe.

1 Corinthians 3 2 I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal.

Even as is the practice today in all disciplines of which I'm aware, new students are introduced to new knowledge a little at a time. For instance, you don't find teachers explaining the subtleties of geometry or algebra in kindergarten. Therefore, St. Paul admits that he did the same thing with the people in Corinth. He began by giving milk because they as yet did not have a background (i.e. teeth) to understand the more difficult concepts of Christianity.

So, in order to arrive at the maturity of which St. Paul speaks, you need to study your faith.


I mean so many I know are constantly going over the same old themes, Garden of Eden, Moses' life story, Noah and the Ark.

Have you ever heard the sayings, "practice, practice, practice" and "repetition, repetition, repetition". They aren't just valid in sports or in business. They are also valid for learning any discipline. That is why we study things over and over again. To ingrain them deep in our mind for instant recall.

Have you ever noticed how easy it is to study the things you love, but so difficult to study the things which you detest or find boring. If you are having trouble studying the Word of God, you might want to cultivate a deeper love for God before continuing. Prayer and meditation may be in order.


Constantly rehashing every little piece of Scripture (should THIS be taken literally? ) like their life depended on it.

As a Catholic, I study Scripture according to the Tradition of the Church. There are specific instructions for when and how to take Scripture literally:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm#102)


Or those I know that talk behind my back or think they can't play certain songs or use certain bad words around me. I mean, get real. Is it reaching outside yourself, truly caring about other people whether they do in return? I will consider any answers you've got.

I don't quite understand your last question. If people avoid bad words and songs with bad lyrics when you are around, it would seem you are having a good effect on them. Keep it up.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Living your faith, would you die for it, if someone came into your work place or school and put a gun to your head and was going to kill you if you would not denouce Christ, what would you do.

Christianity is a life style it is growing more in christ everyday, and it is showing your faith though your life.

Just my opinion:

1 Thes 5:16-18
James 1:2-4
Romans 12
The Psalms of David

Thanking God for everything, being completely honest with God, trusting and depending on God.

YouTube - Superchick-We Live (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCxZvD_wZ6I)

You should have posted this question of the Christianity Board. I'm going to tell you what is true.

This is the twenty-first century... a "mature Christian" is now a Christian who has matured enough to reject the supernatural as childish nonsense from antiquity and take up Secular Humanism. :)

Many, many Christians have serious doubts about God and even more about hell(sorry I forget the figures, you'll have to Google a reputable article for these figures).

You should have posted this question of the Christianity Board. I'm going to tell you what is true.

Nah, you're going to waste our time again with your anti-Christian bile. Perhaps one day the atheists on this board will be mature enough to respect the rights of others instead of imposing their opinions on those who obviously aren't asking for them.


This is the twenty-first century... a "mature Christian" is now a Christian who has matured enough to reject the supernatural as childish nonsense from antiquity and take up Secular Humanism. :)

Patently ridiculous. Any person who has rejected the supernatural is by definition not a Christian.


Many, many Christians have serious doubts about God

Perhaps, but if they still worship Christ in spite of their doubts, then they are still Christian.


and even more about hell(sorry I forget the figures, you'll have to Google a reputable article for these figures).

I don't have to do anything except what I want and I don't want to look up anything useless. If you want to share those figures, start a thread on the number of people who no longer believe in the existence of hell.

Otherwise this thread is about how to become a mature Christian.

if somone came into your work place or school and put a gun to your head and was going to kill you if you would not denouce Christ, what would you do.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if tests of faith were always so dramatic and unambiguous.

In practice, spiritual maturity is rooted in unadorned honesty with yourself about your thoughts, desires and motives. The particular actions that arise from these roots are not necessarily consistent or predictable from one set of circumstances to the next.
The wind blows where it will, and you can hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

I like your response.


Wouldn't it be wonderful if tests of faith were always so dramatic and unambiguous.

There are other ways to demonstrate your faith and love which don't require giving up your life.

In a family, little sacrifices, like giving up a football game to be with the wife or giving up free time to be little league coach for your son or taking time to teach your daughter how to dance. These demonstrate your faithfulness and love for your family.

In the same way, giving up time to pray with and meditate on God and His Word, giving up time to teach His doctrines and commandments, giving up material goods in obedience to His teachings. These little sacrifices demonstrate your faithfulness and love of God just as well. And perhaps even more, because you must exercise your will repeatedly to do the little things.


In practice, spiritual maturity is rooted in unadorned honesty with yourself about your thoughts, desires and motives.

I would have to agree.


The particular actions that arise from these roots are not necessarily consistent or predictable from one set of circumstances to the next.

This is the one thing with which I disagree. If you are faithful to God according to Christian teaching, the actions from these roots are necessarily consistent and predictable. A mature Christian bears fruit which is visible in the works of faith which proceed from His love of God. Without these works, which are the signs of his faithfulness, it is debatable that the person is a true Christian:

John 13 35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

John 15 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. 10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian?
Although I am not a Christian, my reply to that question is a valid one for everyone and for every worldview.

A true and mature "Christian" is a "Christian" who shows by his/her actions and posture that he/she identifies and involves the "Christian religion" in all parts of his/her life.

This in contrast with that majority of believers who "do what has to be done", prefer to pick the cherries out of the bowl of life, and cut corners where ever possible.

:)

Although I am not a Christian, my reply to that question is a valid one for everyone and for every worldview.

A true and mature "Christian" is a "Christian" who shows by his/her actions and posture that he/she identifies and involves the "Christian religion" in all parts of his/her life.

This in contrast with that majority of believers who "do what has to be done", prefer to pick the cherries out of the bowl of life, and cut corners where ever possible.

:)

Good answer. Thanks.

Posted by CHOUX: [Many, many Christians have serious doubts about God and even more about hell(sorry I forget the figures, you'll have to Google a reputable article for these figures).[/QUOTE] ]
No I have no doubts about God or Christ. I know he is real and he is near. Ten years ago I was in a head on collision which I came through without a scratch even though my car didn't have airbags. That whole day I'd had a strange feeling, walking around as though my feet were barely touching the ground. I'm convinced God held me in his arms that day, like that poem where you see only one set of footprints in the sand at pivotal times in your life.

IN THE BOX, I also love reading all the stories about David (one of Jesus' ancestors, after all). Until I started making a personal study of the Bible I didn't even know that James was Christ's little brother. I didn't know that Joseph and Mary had any other kids. You only hear about their firstborn, the famous one. So to me what James has to say is very important. I mean, he grew up with Jesus as his older brother. How cool is that? But I must say a lot of times I'm tempted to think like Joab, David's army commander. "Let us show ourselves to be valiant men, and as for the LORD, he will do whatever he decides to do." And you know he got killed in the temple.

No I have no doubts about God or Christ. I know he is real and he is near. Ten years ago I was in a head on collision which I came through without a scratch even though my car didn't have airbags. That whole day I'd had a strange feeling, walking around as though my feet were barely touching the ground. I'm convinced God held me in his arms that day, like that poem where you see only one set of footprints in the sand at pivotal times in your life.
Well, I've been driving and riding in cars and trucks and farm machinery for over 60 years, and I've never had even one serious accident or injury. Nor have I ever had a life-threatening or disabling illness. Do I have better evidence for God's existence than you do?

No, Wildblue is grateful and thankful to God.

Those who don't believe in God, what are they thankful for? Chance? Good luck?

Death gets us all in the end.

The Bible tells us there will be suffering, the mature Christian understands this and our hope and trust is in the almighty no matter the circumstance. We bring it all to Him.

Those who don't believe in God, what are they thankful for? Chance? good luck?I just don't see how surviving one or more narrow escapes can be construed as evidence for the existence of God. I don't see that it has any bearing on the question.

I was not attempting to persuade anyone for or against the existence of God. I was just giving an example for why I personally believe in Him. My question is for mature Christians, asking for their advice and guidance. And it's not like I'm saying I had a sudden conversion at that moment, I've been a believer all my life but lukewarm I guess. I never did realize why God chose to "spare my life" at that moment. Years later I suspected He wanted me to be there to save someone else's life and that person went on to save a lot of other people and he made a big difference in this world. I don't mean "save" in the born again sense but in the call 911 do CPR!! Sense. It would make a great book or movie but it had a lot of tragedy and bittersweet endings. But I'm still here so can't really say how the story ends.

My 1.5 cents worth in answer to the subject line:

Treat others as you would like to be treated.

i.e.: Don't Judge others, Recognize each human to be a creation/child of God, Strive to sin less tomorrow than you did today.
Thank you, Rick. I guess you found out what I was up to yesterday somehow. Is this about that fistfight I got into with Blairwtsn? Because, well... OK I guess I did start it. Sorry.

DeMaria,

Credendovidis was insulting you and others. :) He's an atheist.

I was told by management that since there is no atheist board, this is the board I can use to have discussion with religionists and other atheists.

So, knock off your attitude toward me. :)

Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian? Maybe share some examples. I'm considering St. Paul's advice to become mature in your faith, to not need milk like a babe. I mean so many I know are constantly going over the same old themes, Garden of Eden, Moses' life story, Noah and the Ark. Constantly rehashing every little piece of Scripture (should THIS be taken literally??) like their life depended on it. Or those I know that talk behind my back or think they can't play certain songs or use certain bad words around me. I mean, get real. Is it reaching outside your self, truly caring about other people whether they do in return? I will consider any answers you've got.


I never consider myself a mature believer of God. I am and always will be, a child of God.
Thirsting for his love, guidance and knowledge, to help me do better, think better, and love my brothers and sisters better.

I think the day I consider myself a mature believer, I may cease from growing and loving
As a child of God.

DeMaria, Credendovidis was insulting you and others. :) He's an atheist. I was told by management that since there is no atheist board, this is the board I can use to have discussion with religionists and other atheists. So, knock off your attitude toward me. :)
Dear MS :

I try not to insult people. But many here have extremely long religious toes, on which it is easy to stand, even when you do not intend to do so. What people like De Maria do not understand is that I have here just the same right to express my views as a theist has to express his/her religious views.
Please note that we are both Secular Humanists. Use than name. Some people here get so easily upset... Let's not ruin their piece of peace of mind...

:)

This is the Religious discussion board, all religions from Christians, Islam, Buddhist, no faith, or the ** what is it the pasta god or something they joke about

So in this all sides must keep it very "friendly" to a point, I believe Choux was wrong I do not see Credendovidis as insulting as merely being direct
Posting on these disccusion boards require a little tough skin.

... I do not see Credendovidis as insulting as merely being direct
Posting on these disccusion boards require alittle tough skin.
"Amen" to that Fr. Chuck !

;)

"Amen" to that Fr. Chuck !

;)


? Was that a prayer we caught you in?

May get you doing a hail mary before it is over

I apologize, Credendo, I made a mistake; you are always gentlemanly. I just get so frustrated dealing with Christian troublemakers that it gets the best of me. :)

Again, so sorry!

Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian? Maybe share some examples. I'm considering St. Paul's advice to become mature in your faith, to not need milk like a babe. I mean so many I know are constantly going over the same old themes, Garden of Eden, Moses' life story, Noah and the Ark. Constantly rehashing every little piece of Scripture (should THIS be taken literally??) like their life depended on it. Or those I know that talk behind my back or think they can't play certain songs or use certain bad words around me. I mean, get real. Is it reaching outside your self, truly caring about other people whether they do in return? I will consider any answers you've got.


There are something that even if you don't beleve in a God may still have some historical correctness. For Moses, there is some digs showing the lack of use of straw in the making of the bricks and death of the first born, that do connect with the slaves leaving. Now does that make Moses real, for a Christian yes, for a non christian it may only mean that there was some real facts of history included in the writing of the bible.

As for the Flood,Noah there are again digs that show a major regional flood over what would have been the known world at that time. Ok, not a world wide flood but to me good enough to prove there was a flood to others it may go on to say no it was just a local flood
And of course the ark would be rotted away by most guesses and would really the finding of a large boat some place where it should not be, really prove it to the unbeleiver.

So at the worst, to a Christian, there are evidences that something happened similar to the bible story. For the Chistian we teach that this is how it happened, the non will say ( if they believe the facts happened ) was that perhaps in Egypt there was a slave revolt and the slaves left and latter in story had their god saving them, or in the flood since a few people did survive, they were told that it was their god.

To me I have my faith and belief so I don't doubt it ( bible) as the truth.

?? was that a prayer we caught you in??
May get you doing a hail mary before it is over
LOL!!
Didn't you notice that I posted "Amen" instead of Amen ?

;)

I apologize, Credendo, I made a mistake; you are always gentlemanly. I just get so frustrated dealing with Christian troublemakers that it gets the best of me. :) Again, so sorry!
No problem at all, dear MS, and no need to apologize!! I assumed that already more or less !
:)

Well, I've been driving and riding in cars and trucks and farm machinery for over 60 years, and I've never had even one serious accident or injury. Nor have I ever had a life-threatening or disabling illness. Do I have better evidence for God's existence than you do?
Well to me this shows God believes quite a bit in you, whether you return the favor. And Jesus is heavily into agriculture, you know. He calls Himself a shepherd tending his flock. You and I can learn a lot from this guy, if we just listen to His voice.

Well to me this shows God believes quite a bit in you, whether or not you return the favor.I take it as a given that God believes in me, but I doubt that he's much concerned about whether I return the favor. And I don't think what happens in the physical world, whether "good" or "bad", reflects in any way on his attitude toward me personally.

[to reply to Ordinary Guy]Well remember the story about how God would leave 99 sheep in the wilderness just to go back to look for one who was straying. About how there's much joy in heaven when a sinner returns to the fold. About how the loyal son got jealous over the fuss his father made when the prodigal son returned home to his family. And when you raise a child, if he does the wrong thing later, maybe gets into trouble, you yourself feel personally responsible--maybe I wasn't a good father, maybe I didn't raise him right? Is it my fault he turned out like that? And even if you know you tried your best you suspect other people are thinking that sort of thing, and you'd feel bad. So I try to make any passing thoughts God might have about me,his child, hopefully good ones...

Well remember the story about how God would leave 99 sheep in the wilderness .....
Precisely : a story you may or may not believe. The bible is full of them...

;)

Precisely : a story you may or may not believe. The bible is full of them ...

;)Well the Bible is a book. Books are full stories. This particular book has been proofread by hundreds of thousands of people, so maybe the facts have been checked for accuracy a little more thoroughly than your average book. And many of the people in there are known to have existed, they are not made up fictional characters. You can sort of learn from other people's mistakes without having to repeat them yourself.

Well the Bible is a book. Books are full stories.
So far we agree...

As I just posted to sassyT :

If the Bible is the book by God for all human beings, and that God is all powerful and omniscient, etc. than why does the Bible contain so many of these faults?
Note that these faults are not translation faults. Neither are they printing faults. They are faults that are the result of different human scribents introducing some story they heard earlier into their paper that later was used to make up the Bible.

A deity that is claimed to be perfect and that is claimed to have created the entire universe with everything in it in 6 days only, seems incapable of producing fault free Bibles in all languages that every human being can understand without the need for a weekly interpreter located in a big house with a huge tower on top of it...

What a poor qualities for a deity that is claimed to be "perfect"!!

:D

Well Jesus started with a couple of fishermen, men who were "unlettered and ordinary" He wasn't publishing a book, he never wrote a gospel, that was done by the Apostles and others further down the line to witness to people after those men were gone. Jesus mainly spoke face to face with people. I mean anybody that is thinking the Bible is so important, have they read the passage in Ezekiel where it says, throw this book away into the water after you have read it? Don't see too many Bibles floating around when you go down to the water.

So I try to make any passing thoughts God might have about me,his child, hopefully good ones....
I'm sure they are, but the safety and health of our physical body isn't the way to test him, because eventually, that well will dry up.

You can sort of learn from other people's mistakes without having to repeat them yourself.Yep, and from their successes as well. That's what stories are for, it seems to me. Strict correspondence with actual historical events and persons isn't what makes them useful or important.

Yes that's why in my original question I spoke about people who pick over every little scrap of Scripture like their life depended on it.

... the passage in Ezekiel where it says, throw this book away into the water after you have read it ...
Well : I did read it, and than I did throw it away afterwards. Have you not seen it floating around ?

:D

Well : I did read it, and than I did throw it away afterwards. Have you not seen it floating around ?

:DYou go girl!:D

Well I looked through Ezekiel trying to find that passage, or was it in Daniel? Haven't tossed my Bible away yet, you know. And there is a lot of stuff in Ezekiel about mature faith, the shepherd caring for the sheep not just feeding himself. Of course Ezekiel is in the Old Testament so it doesn't actually say Christian maturity.

You go girl!:D
Hmmmm... Between my legs hangs a "Glockenspiel".

:D

OOpsie.

OOpsie.
Don't kick me there, please...

LOL

:D

DeMaria,

Credendovidis was insulting you and others. :) He's an atheist.

I was told by management that since there is no atheist board, this is the board I can use to have discussion with religionists and other atheists.

So, knock off your attitude toward me. :)

Your smilies indicate that you have written this in good faith.

I'll respond in good faith.

I understand that management told you that you could have discussion with religionists and atheists on this board. But they didn't say you had free reign to insult Christians on this board, did they?

There are ways to speak to people. If you personally don't believe in God that is your prerogative. However, your previous message declared that believing Christians were immature unless they left behind their faith in God. In other words, you called me immature. That's an insult.

Here is what you said, and I quote:


This is the twenty-first century... a "mature Christian" is now a Christian who has matured enough to reject the supernatural as childish nonsense from antiquity and take up Secular Humanism.

So, if you want to have a polite discussion, you don't have to agree with us and you don't need to add smilies to your message, just speak to us with respect.

Otherwise you will get what you dish out.

Peace :)

Sincerely,

De Maria

[to reply to Ordinary Guy]Well remember the story about how God would leave 99 sheep in the wilderness just to go back to look for one who was straying. About how there's much joy in heaven when a sinner returns to the fold. About how the loyal son got jealous over the fuss his father made when the prodigal son returned home to his family. And when you raise a child, if he does the wrong thing later, maybe gets into trouble, you yourself feel personally responsible--maybe I wasn't a good father, maybe I didn't raise him right? Is it my fault he turned out like that? And even if you know you tried your best you suspect other people are thinking that sort of thing, and you'd feel bad. So I try to make any passing thoughts God might have about me,his child, hopefully good ones....

Awesome!

Your last thought

So I try to make any passing thoughts God might have about me,his child, hopefully good ones

Comes mighty close to a Christian devotion known as "the Presence of God".
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Presence of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12396a.htm)

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria thanks for all your thoughts and input. Credo is just ticked off cause I butted in to one of his other arguments he was having with someone else. Told him his precious science, theory of relativity can prove the Earth was created in 7 days. He is super smart, which automatically makes him hard to get along with... God wants us either hot or cold, not lukewarm! He will hate me but I am praying for him. That's OK I've been hated by some of the best. Like water off a duck's back.

De Maria thanks for all your thoughts and input. Credo is just ticked off cause I butted in to one of his other arguements he was having with someone else. Told him his precious science, theory of relativity can prove the Earth was created in 7 days. He is super smart, which automatically makes him hard to get along with...God wants us either hot or cold, not lukewarm! He will hate me but I am praying for him. That's OK I've been hated by some of the best. Like water off a duck's back.

Lol!! I love your attitude!

1 Thessalonians 2 6 Nor sought we glory of men,.

There are ways to speak to people. If you personally don't believe in God that is your prerogative. However, your previous message declared that believing Christians were immature unless they left behind their faith in God. In other words, you called me immature. That's an insult.
...
So, if you want to have a polite discussion, you don't have to agree with us and you don't need to add smilies to your message, just speak to us with respect.

Otherwise you will get what you dish out.
You have proven yourself to be quite adept at responding in kind to perceived insults, but I'm wondering how you reconcile that attitude with the following scriptural injunctions?

"Do not return evil with evil, or insults with insults." I Peter 3:9

"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you." Luke 6:28

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth', but I say to you do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:38-39

You have proven yourself to be quite adept at responding in kind to perceived insults, but I'm wondering how you reconcile that attitude with the following scriptural injunctions?


Amen OG. And that is all I have been trying to explain or share with DeMaria and I get called a hyprocriate - that I truly don't love God or my fellow man.

I love this post OG -

You have proven yourself to be quite adept at responding in kind to perceived insults, but I'm wondering how you reconcile that attitude with the following scriptural injunctions?


Quote:
"Do not return evil with evil, or insults with insults." I Peter 3:9

"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you." Luke 6:28

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth', but I say to you do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:38-39

Thanks for the question. And its fair. I've wondered about it myself sometimes. In fact, when I first started on the internet, I believed I should not argue with anyone. I would take insult after insult believing this was what Jesus taught. But since my debating took me deeper and deeper into the Scriptures and into knowledge of my faith, I began to notice that neither Jesus, nor St. Paul, nor St. James seemed to understand that teaching to mean that we must become wall flowers.

For instance, Jesus frequently spoke harshly to the Pharisees:
Matthew 23 13 But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites;

And St. Paul spoke the same way:
Galatians 3 1 O senseless Galatians,

1 Corinthians 15 36 Senseless man,

And there are many others, but I'm writing in a hurry. Also, St. Louis de Montfort would BEAT UP hecklers when he preached in the center of town.

So, being a Christian does not mean to be a pansy. And those Scriptures, in my opinion, don't mean we should not defend ourselves. What they mean is when a discussion is reduced to insults with no intelligent content, then it is time to stop.

After I discovered this in the Scriptures, I also noticed that the Christian apologists who got more respect, did not permit others to insult them. It appeared that those who permitted others to insult them simply lost everyone's respect.

So I adjusted my thinking. I now go where "they" are. If I believe, that the person is worth talking to, I will take on the insult and fight through it until it is time to shake the dust off my feet. In other words, until I believe that the person is not worth talking to.

After many years of debating, I've come to believe this is the most effective course. There is such a thing as righteous anger.

I hope that answers your question.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I hope that answers your question.
Yes, I suppose it does. It doesn't surprise me. You claim to revere the Bible but manage to rationalize attitudes that are diametrically opposed to the plain meaning of what it actually says. If it's respect you want, that's not the way to get it, at least from me.


And that is all I have been trying to explain or share with DeMaria and I get called a hyprocriate - that I truly don't love God or my fellow man.
I have the utmost respect for your religious beliefs and attitudes. It's interesting to me that both you and De Maria are Catholic, but you come across as different as night and day in your interactions with others on matters of faith. It confirms my belief that the essence of religion has little or nothing to do with church affiliation or doctrine.

To me a mature Christian is one that has learned not to waiver in their faith.
They have learned not to be arrogant or playing the Holy Spirit like whatever they say is the gospel truth. They are not wanting to run the church function like their way is THE way and pouting, gossiping or criticizing others that do not go along with THEIR way. Often many Christians THINK they are doing God's will when in actuality they are sabotaging it.
A mature Christian has learned to discern things and how to be in synchronicity and peace with where they are suppose to be in life. They have a real freedom apart from religious squabbles.
I am blessed to know quite a few Christians that I can say I believe they are very real Christians.

Some well known by some Christians are
Bill Wilson Home (http://www.metroministries.org/Home/tabid/2445/Default.aspx)
Phil keaggy p h i l k e a g g y . c o m (http://www.philkeaggy.com/)
B. E. Taylor B.E. Taylor - The Official Site (http://www.betaylor.com/)

This is a really good CD set
- MetroMinistries.org (http://www.metroministries.org/shop/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=181)

... Credo is just ticked off ... He is super smart, which automatically makes him hard to get along with...
I am not ticked off at all. I only found your earlier comments rather simplistic and invalid. I even added a post to bring in some humor...
Which - lacking any reaction - you clearly seem to have failed to cope with !
All that is correct in your post is that I am indeed smart. Is that a problem for you ?

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

Yes, I suppose it does. It doesn't surprise me. You claim to revere the Bible but manage to rationalize attitudes that are diametrically opposed to the plain meaning of what it actually says.

I revere the entire Bible. I don't pick certain verses which I then twist to change the meaning of Jesus' message.


If it's respect you want, that's not the way to get it, at least from me.


Actually, of the non-Christians on this forum, you're about the most pleasant with whom to hold a discussion. So, as long as you keep a respectful tone in your messages, I don't care if you respect me or my beliefs.

But if you begin to get insulting, you know what to expect in return.

Bye.

I revere the entire Bible. I don't pick and choose certain verses which I then twist to change the meaning of Jesus' message.
That is not true and honest : most of your posts are full of twisting words, sentences, and complete meanings of what was posted earlier.

Also your posts do not reflect the goal and intention of the Christian mission : "go forth and spread the word" (not only in your words, but specially in your attitude and deeds). You and your attitude on this board have already done more harm to Christianity than an army of angry atheists ever could achieve - if they wanted to do so.

:D

·

But if you begin to get insulting, you know what to expect in return.
Yes, I would expect you to disregard the teaching of both Jesus and St. Peter and return insults for insults.

But if you begin to get insulting, you know what to expect in return.

Bye.


DeMaria,

This is exactly what I was trying to communicate to you. How does the above demonstrate a loving follower of Christ.

Any good that may be in your messages, is lost with this type of thinking.

I did try to respond to your last PM, but when I hit send, it blinked away. I took it as the will of God. I truly did.

There should be no harshness amongst those who believe or even amongst those who don't believe.

You may think I trade the praise of man for being in favor in God's eyes, but as I told you in my PM back to you, that could not be further from the truth. In life, my thoughts, heart,
And viewpoints, usually make me stand alone and it's where I choose to stay, for I would not change what I believe in my heart for anyone's approval, except Gods.

I mean this with all sincerity, I wish you great joy and pray that love touches your heart
And surrounds you.

May you see the good in people as well as areas that may need improvement and share God's word and love, in a way that will bring others to Him.

And may you no longer judge me wrongly and may I not do the same of you.

Allheart.

Wow I can't believe there are 57 answers to this question... where was I? Well if you guys expect courteous people on the internet, don't hold your breath, what's that John the Baptist used to say, the people nice to look at are in the palaces not in the wilderness-- I guess you have to pick your battles, or like they say when arguing about a subject, "what some people don't know, you can't tell them." so it does no good to get riled up. Credendovis I haven't forgotten you I'm just a bit busy right now a newborn grandchild just got dropped off in our laps and I'm head cook and bottle washer right now. But lucky for you I can feed infants and pray at the same time!

Not sure where all these ideas of a Christian not getting upset and not having their say comes from. For example we are to correct people when they are not correct and if they still don't correct we are to drag them in front of witnesses to correct them and then latter in front of the entire church latter. Also there are many things, that non informed or non christians often don't understand, such as turning the other cheek, which is an insult to the person, since it shows we are expecting them to back hand , which is a disgrace, since we are saying that they are the type of person who would backhand us, which is a sign of disgrace. Even to wiping our shoes off at their door which is a sign of disgust with them.

And we are even told not to let the sun go down on our anger, it does not tell us not to get angry even, only not to go to bed angry.

And of course the early disciples would go out and preach even against government orders since they knew they had to do Gods will over any order not to preach here or there.

And I remember Christ calling the temple priests a pit of vipers and throwing out the money lenders.

So I think people need to get the silly idea of christians just being abused and not standing up and holding ground, since it is only the non christian that wants to weaken the faith of the chistian

I'm just a bit busy right now a newborn grandchild just got dropped off in our laps
Congrats to you and the rest of the family. I hope everything is OK.

;)
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Well, I've been driving and riding in cars and trucks and farm machinery for over 60 years, and I've never had even one serious accident or injury. Nor have I ever had a life-threatening or disabling illness. Do I have better evidence for God's existence than you do?

No, that wasn't even her point. Psa 91:11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee, they shall bear thee up lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. She said she felt like her feet were not even touching the ground. The angels were on the job taking care of her.

I like the saying: if the devil isn't coming against you, it's because you're walking the same way.

Well maybe I've got my answer in Ezekiel 34. I love to do lists:
Strenthen the weak
Heal the sick
Bind up the injured
Bring back the strayed
Seek the lost.
Now if you all will excuse me I'm going to go in and knock back an ice cold bottle of milk before I get started.

No, that wasn't even her point. Psa 91:11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee, they shall bear thee up lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. She said she felt like her feet were not even touching the ground. The angels were on the job taking care of her.

I like the saying: if the devil isn't coming against you, it's because you're walking the same way.
Thanks! My wife and I say that country song by Martina McBride, Wild Angels is our theme song. "It must have been hard, it must have been tough, keeping up with crazy fools like us":rolleyes:

No, that wasn't even her point. Psa 91:11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee, they shall bear thee up lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. She said she felt like her feet were not even touching the ground. The angels were on the job taking care of her.
Her point was:
I was just giving an example for why I personally believe in Him.
My point was that if coming through a car wreck unscathed is a reason to believe in God, surely having no wreck at all would be an even better reason.

I like the saying: if the devil isn't coming against you, it's because you're walking the same way.Surely you aren't saying that the lack of accidents in my life is evidence that I'm walking with the devil?

It just seems to me foolish and misguided to suppose that the health and safety of our physical body is any indication of God's existence or love for us. Sooner or later we all die as a result of accident or illness.

Well, guys I badly wanted a new car, was driving a 12 year old one. Everywhere I went I saw everybody else with shiny new ones. Why not me? I was working 3 jobs and couldn't get ahead. Then the car wreck happened on a foggy morning before sunrise. I didn't have collision on a 12 year old car, had to drive for a week on one of those donut spare tires till I could get a replacement. It was 20 below zero but I pulled the sheetmetal off the car and pounded it back out. If people where thinking my car looked bad before, let me tell you. Then my plant closed and I was out of a job, they'd even raided our pension funds.. No money, no job, no car to go and look for another one. But one short year later I had a new and better job and I actually walked in to the dealer and drove myself a new car right off the showroom floor. See, if God had caved, did what I want when I wanted it, I would have wrecked the new car back then! But He stuck to The Plan, which was much better than my idea.

But one short year later I had a new and better job and I actually walked in to the dealer and drove myself a new car right off the showroom floor. See, if God had caved, did what I want when I wanted it, I would have wrecked the new car back then!! But He stuck to The Plan, which was much better than my idea.
??

What is that for extreme subjective argument ? You got a new job because there was a job available, you applied for it, and you got it.
And because you had a new and even better job, you could go to a showroom and get yourself a new car.

But what has that to do with the claim to the existence of a deity called "God" being the "Creator"?

:confused:

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My point was that if coming through a car wreck unscathed is a reason to believe in God, surely having no wreck at all would be an even better reason.
Surely you aren't saying that the lack of accidents in my life is evidence that I'm walking with the devil?
You have just been lucky ! No deities involved !


It just seems to me foolish and misguided to suppose that the health and safety of our physical body is any indication of God's existence or love for us. Sooner or later we all die as a result of accident or illness.
Spot on ! And nothing that can be done about that !

:rolleyes:

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I completely agree with OG, that you shouldn't attribute health, good health, as a sign that God exist. It can in some circumstances, but what about those beautiful people stricken with cancer, or those beautiful starving children, is God not right there by their side?

I also agree with Wildandblue, that if you give God the keys, to the car of life, His loving plan for you, will guide you.

As OG so wonderfully stated, we all, sadly will be stricken with some illness or circumstance that will cease our life on this earth, but it is my belief, that God will make that difficult road, much easier.

God carried me through my whole childhood. I remember sitting on the edge of the bed, feet didn't even touch the ground, and smiling and praying, knowing that God was right there with me and would continue to be with me and get me through a great difficulty that I knew was only minutes away.

For me, the proof that some seek, is all around, it's what the eyes behold and the heart sees, that helps one to believe.

I know some say there life is just fine without the believing that there is a God, and would be willing to believe once they obtain proof, but that is the wonder of God. It is my belief, that if one would open their eyes and see God's love, they would understand the glorious gifts they now enjoy are sent from above, and would be even that more precious to behold.

I wish I had the words that would help others to see, not to force my view, but so others are not left out in a place that they don't have to be. But I don't have the words, or the proof that some seek. I just have prayers that all will find their way, and keep me on the right path to our Loving Father.

I can only share with all of you, that when I try and run this life by myself, it never seems to work out too well, but when I give those keys over to God, the road is so much easier.

I'm saying that if God had given me that new car when I first brought the subject up with Him, the car I wrecked on that hill would have been the new car, which I would have gotten just before losing my job. But He knew this and didn't give it to me then. He decided, no, let's let that person hit you in the old car, it's junk anyway, no big loss. All He wanted was for me to survive that accident, possessions aren't that important to Him. I was meant to save a friend a few years later, as I already said. I had prayed for him for about 40 years and after his accident he was a changed person, and I can tell you that a few years after that at the end of his life he accepted Christ although he'd been alienated from Him for most of his life.

I'm saying that if God had given me that new car when I first brought the subject up with Him, the car I wrecked on that hill would have been the new car ....
That sounds like the argument used by the Ugandan soldier driving the truck that hit my car while I was waiting in front of a red robot, waiting patiently for it to change green.

He stated : "the accident was your fault, because if you had not come to Uganda, and stand here, I could never have hit you"...

W+B : that argument is of the same logic and quality as yours...

:rolleyes:

·

But it is exactly that, you find you forget your keys, so you go back into the house, that puts you 2 min latter so you are not hit by the bus.

Or you are 2 min latter and get hit by the bolt of lightning, one person says it just happens, to others, God has made things happen for a purpose.

But it is exactly that ....
No Chuck, that is a pure nonsensical and illogical argument.
The soldier driver caused the accident because he was driving too fast or was un-attentive, and reacted much too late. My presence had nothing to do with that.

Similar that bus or lightning accident : God (if she exists) had nothing to do with that. Unless of course you can PROVE with objective, serious, and logical arguments otherwise...

:rolleyes:

·

Bullet comes into my home, the bible research book I am holding stops it, who is the cause for me holding that bood at that exact time, To me God had to have a hand in it.

Oh I most certainly do believe that God intercedes on our behalf. So many of my life experiences does prove that, and I am most grateful.

I know that my husband was an absolute gift from God. The blessing that He gave me, each day does prove that it was God's hands that brought us together. I don't know why God shined on me so favorably, and I ask myself that daily, but still am most grateful.

My girlfriend was shot down for so many jobs, but in truth, the jobs were not the right ones for her. The environment was very poor. And I kept telling her, it wasn't the ones that were meant for her, but she never lost hope or faith. And finally :), just this week she started the absolute perfect job for her.

God knows what is best for all of us, we just have to be sure and listen and know that He does direct things in our lives, and they all will be meant to be good for us. There is a gift in every blessing.

Yes I think I would be better off praying for guidance and direction rather than just asking for Things. God sends rain on the just and the unjust, because he loves each one, not because of their deeds but because His love is unconditional. And as for dying or not dying, as soon as sin came into the world, it brought death. Imagine being in a horrible wreck or badly burned in a fire, but you could never die! That would be worse than dying I think.

Bullet comes into my home, the bible research book I am holding stops it, who is the cause for me holding that bood at that exact time, To me God had to have a hand in it.
No Chuck : your hands had a "hand in it" !

:rolleyes:

·

Oh I most certainly do believe that God intercedes on our behalf. So many of my life experiences does prove that, and I am most grateful.
Strange than that so far all human historical records indicate that never any amputee - despite prayer or any other request to "God" to intercede - ever had a hand, arm, foot, or leg restored. Now : why would that be? Billions of wishes over time are suggested to be taken care of by "God".

But why not ever any wish by any amputee to "God" ? Is there perhaps a special plan "God" has with amputees?

Or may it be that all these claimed intercedings (?) by "God" are just "lucky" circumstances, are all these failed intercedings (?) by "God" not just "unlucky" circumstances, and are any intercedings (?) by "God" just impossible because either "God" does not exist, or does not care at all about any human being?

Is it not perhaps correct that there is no "God" at all?
At least that would explain perfectly and convincingly why amputees do not grow new limbs...

:rolleyes:

·

Strange than that so far all human historical records indicate that never any amputee - despite prayer or any other request to "God" to intercede - ever had a hand, arm, foot, or leg restored. Now : why would that be? Billions of wishes over time are suggested to be taken care of by "God".

But why not ever any wish by any amputee to "God" ? Is there perhaps a special plan "God" has with amputees?

Or may it be that all these claimed intercedings (?) by "God" are just "lucky" circumstances, are all these failed intercedings (?) by "God" not just "unlucky" circumstances, and are any intercedings (?) by "God" just impossible because either "God" does not exist, or does not care at all about any human being?

Is it not perhaps correct that there is no "God" at all?
At least that would explain perfectly and convincingly why amputees do not grow new limbs .....

:rolleyes:

·

Oh Cred, but that could have been God's plan, and that may sound cruel, but what we don't know about today, somehow that answer does lie in tomorrow. Have you ever wondered why something didn't turn out the way you wanted it to, but the days, months even years, you are so glad it didn't turn out the way you thought it wanted to.

How many people have been stricken with an illness and then used that illness to help others?

Remember, God does give us free will. I smoke ( I had stopped for over a year... ugh, but then picked up the awful habit), if and when I get cancer, should I expect God to cure me, of something that I set in motion with my free will.

Now this is not to say at all that amputees by any means caused this. Many many have not. I think of our brave soldiers, who have lost many limbs, but I bet if you talk to them,
You will find some, who are even closer to God. Who are now using their disability to help others.

God's plan is a masterful one and it is very hard for the human mind to understand fully, but that is where faith kicks in.

Mature Christian, I do not believe any of us are Mature Christians. I would say Maturing Christians, because as believers we are constantly growing and learning. So is it fair to say that some believers are more mature then others. We are told not to judge one another, but I see that all the time. Saturday night I was at a catholic service and one lady before service started just came out of confession, sat down in the pew and this other lady sat beside her. They were gossiping about other people the whole service. Talking through the whole thing. Judging others. I could not believe it. I still extended my hand out in piece but am I being judgemental towards them? I am not perfect, no one is. We all fall short. So I guess we need to lift each other up. No matter what our faults may be. Love is to truly be there for one another. Continually growing and learning and maturing, but there is no such thing as a mature Christian in my opinion.

Oh Cred, but that could have been God's plan ...
Yes Allheart. That may indeed be that way. However : "Oxham's razor" states that almost always the simplest answer to a question is the correct one. Therefore it seems more logical to assume that there is no "God" at all, as that explains the lack of regrowth of limbs perfectly and convincingly... All other assumptions require another unsupported suggestion or questionable additional claim.

"God's ways are inscrutable" is a clincher, not an explanation !

:rolleyes:

·

Yes Allheart. That may indeed be that way. However : "Oxham's razor" states that almost always the simplest answer to a question is the correct one. Therefore it seems more logical to assume that there is no "God" at all, as that explains the lack of regrowth of limbs perfectly and convincingly ..... All other assumptions require another unsupported suggestion or questionable additional claim.

"God's ways are inscrutable" is a clincher, not an explanation !

:rolleyes:

·

Dearest Cred,

First, psssst a little secret I will share with you... AMHD has more then one of those little faces... they have :p and :D and :) and even :( , would you make my day, and just try a different one. Even if it doesn't apply? It would make me smile. ( okay, squeezing in a little levity, or trying to)

For me Cred, it is far more logical to know there is God then not. Look at all the beautiful humans that surround you, the smiling happy children. I've said this before, have you ever seen a special needs child? And what do they usaully always where on their face? A big beautiful smile. And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.

To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.

Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to. But yet, it still remains to be proof. Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
Accept, that they really are not limited.

If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has.
It's all part of God's loving plan.

Apologies for the many quotes... It's Sunday... But I'm off to the beach soon !


AMHD has more then one of those little faces.
Yes, but I prefer :rolleyes: as that shows better the feeling I have for what I reply to.
But watch the last line : all for you!! LOL


... have you ever seen a special needs child?
Yes Allheart : almost every day : I am volunteer worker at a center for physical and mental crippled children (I deliberately do not call them "motorized and mental impaired or challenged" because the basic term is crippled).


And what do they usaully always where on thier face? A big beautiful smile.
Yes Allheart. That is because we feed, wash, dress, support, and pamper them. And they feel fine. But most of them have no idea what the heck is happening around them. And "God"? Although they have heard that word, it is beyond their capacity of understanding.


And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.
With all respect Allheart : cr*p : "God" does not do anything. It are my colleges and I who watch over them, and places - where that is possible - great joy and delight in their heart.


To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.
Neither does it to me. I attribute that instead to the billions of cells and cell structures that existed before me and you, and by their development (evolution) allowed us to grow to what we are today.


Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to.
What "God"? Where is it? Where is the objective supporting evidence for it's existence and capacities?


... But yet, it still remains to be proof.
Yes : SUBJECTIVE evidence, i.e. a claim and nothing else.


Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
accept, that they really are not limited.
Well... The legs-less amputees I see are limited. And that is why society puts them in centers, as they feel threatened and guilty in some strange way by their presence.


If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has. It's all part of God's loving plan.
I suggest you put your legs on the railroad track, so you soon can experience God's loving plan for amputees for the rest of your life... Cynical ? Yes ! Logial ? Yes, just as well !

So specially for you Allheart :

:D :mad: :p :cool: :eek:

·

Apologies for the many quotes... It's Sunday and I have all the time of the world...


AMHD has more then one of those little faces.
Yes, but I prefer :rolleyes: as that shows better the feeling I have for what I reply to.
But watch the last line : all for you!! LOL


... have you ever seen a special needs child?
Yes Allheart : almost every day : I am volunteer worker at a center for physical and mental crippled children (I deliberately do not call them "motorized and mental impaired or challenged") because the basic term is crippled.


And what do they usaully always where on thier face? A big beautiful smile.
Yes Allheart. That is because we feed, wash, dress, support, and pamper them. And they feel fine. But most of them have no idea what the heck is happening around them. And "God"? Although they have heard that word, it is beyond their capacity of understanding.


And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.
With all respect Allheart : cr*p : "God" does not do anything. It are my colleges and I who watch over them, and place - where that is possible - great joy and delight in their heart.

TELL ME : Where was that smile on the orphan and mental crippled children's faces in the centers in Rumania a decade ago ? If you are correct God was there. But there were not enough people there to do the real actual work.
Another strong hint at the non-existence of "God" as far as I am concerned !


To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.
Neither does it to me. I attribute that instead to the billions of cells and cell structures that existed before me and you, and by their development (evolution) allowed us to grow to what we are today.


Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to.
What "God"? Where is it? Where is the objective supporting evidence for it's existence and capacities?


... But yet, it still remains to be proof.
Yes : SUBJECTIVE proof, i.e. a claim and nothing else.


Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
accept, that they really are not limited.
Well... The legs-less amputees I see are limited. And that is why society puts them in centers, as they feel threatened and guilty in some strange way by their presence.


If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has. It's all part of God's loving plan.
I suggest you put your legs on the railroad track, so you soon can experience God's loving plan for amputees for the rest of your life.
Cynical ? Yes ! Logial ? Yes, just as well !

So specially once for you, Allheart :

:mad: :p :cool: :eek: :o

·

Ahhhhhhhhhh I love all the different faces. Thank you Cred :). My prayers were answered! Gotcha, hee hee, just kiddin. But thanks for them, I chuckled.

Now Cred, take this with the intention that it is given, you see, what a special person that you are... the gifts that you may not know you possess. Not everyone has the capacity, to take care of those beautiful and wonderful children. But you do. Like it or not, that is a very special gift.

No, the children are unaware of God's prescense, but trust me, He is never unaware of theirs and I promise you, He blesses them every minute of every day. Many of the blessings He does give them, is people like you to lovingly take care of them.

And you are right, no, I would not lay on a train track, to extend my love, or to be able to know actually what it is like to be an amputee. Very good point and I know that even though God is right there with them, if they did have a choice, they would want their limbs back. I do feel for them, very much.

Ahhhhhhhhhh I love all the different faces. Thank you Cred :)
Pleasure ! :D


... but trust me, He is never unaware of theirs and I promise you, He blesses them every minute of every day. Many of the blessings He does give them, is people like you to lovingly take care of them.
With all respect : No, I don't trust you on that. I am sure you mean well, but what you stated is - as far as I am concerned - what you BELIEVE. It lacks the Objective Supporting Evidence (OSE).


.... if they did have a choice, they would want their limbs back.
My point is : why does "God" not restore limbs?.

·

I moved this to here ....

·

Here is a picture out of a Romanian Governmental orphanage made around 1995. Does that show that God watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart ?
That is precisely why I am a Secular Humanist : if we leave it to this (to me seemingly) imaginary entity called "God", you can make pictures like these everywhere.
People should place the concern and care for each others as a focus in their life. And keep "God" as pastime on Sundays and/or when they have nothing else useful to do...

·

Cred,

That is heartbreaking more then words can say, but that picture says it all. And far too many children to suffer.

And you are more then right, that we need to focus on helping each other and taking care of each other.

It is hugely my belief, when ones like yourself and the many other ones, who do make a difference in the special children's lives, when you do have days, where you think to yourself, why is this happening? How can I go on caring for this children who suffer so much? When the human mind and heart has taken on the tragedy it can ingest, what do you think makes you or anyone else, get right back to it the next day? I believe it is God's love and strength that keeps these good people going.

Look at Mother Theresa. What do you think inspired, or who do you think inspired all the great, unselifsh and loving acts and deeds she performed?

God enters into our hearts, so that we are able to keep going, keep giving even when we think we can give no more.

Cred, That is heartbreaking more then words can say, but that picture says it all. And far too many children to suffer.
Let's keep to the subject...

Why does "God" not restore amputated limbs?
Specially when "God" is claimed to do so many wonders daily...

Could all these wonders not be just "luck"?
Could it be that "God" just does not exist or that "God" does not care about you, me , or anyone else?
I know that may sound terrible to you, but still it is a fair question to ask !

For sure it are perfect reasons limbs are never restored...

:(

·

Cred,

You would rather hang your hat on "luck" then faith? Luck is hard to prove as well, isn't it?

And I honestly don't know why God does not restore the lost limbs. I wish that He would, but His plan for all is in His loving hands and I know, trust and believe in His plan.

This life is only temporary, and those limbs one day will actually be restored, hurts, pains, trauma and tradegedy will one day be all removed and be replaced with great peace.

Cred, You would rather hang your hat on "luck" then faith? Luck is hard to prove as well, isn't it?
No, not on "luck". But I do hang my hat on my own capacities, on my own responsibilities, on my own tolerance for those who had less "luck" than I had in life, and on my feelings of concern and need of others for care. Only that way we can reach here on earth what theists hope to get after they are dead : peace !

I do not need a deity that has never been objectively proved to exist. As a Secular Humanist I care for - specially - the poorest and the weakest under us mortal humans.
Because it is sure THAT many such people exist, and that they require our support.
And while no deity seems to exist, although it is claimed to have gigantic capacities but has never shown itself in an objective way to humanity, I am very skeptic to it's existence.

If only all these theists were less busy trying to improve their odds on a "good" chance for the hereafter, and more busy by spreading the word in an indirect way (by taking better care of their social responsibilities)... How much better this world would be...


And I honestly don't know why God does not restore the lost limbs. I wish that He would, but His plan for all is in His loving hands and I know, trust and believe in His plan.
And you never ask yourself really why amputees NEVER restore limbs, but you believe all these wild claims on "God's" mysterious answering of other people's prayers - all but regrowing amputated limbs? That does not ever plants a little seed of doubt in your mind? Really ?

:)

·

Mature Christian, I do not believe any of us are Mature Christians. I would say Maturing Christians, because as believers we are constantly growing and learning. So is it fair to say that some believers are more mature then others. We are told not to judge one another,, but I see that all the time. Saturday night I was at a catholic service and one lady before service started just came out of confession, sat down in the pew and this other lady sat beside her. They were gossiping about other people the whole service. Talking through the whole thing. Judging others. I could not believe it. I still extended my hand out in piece but am I being judgemental towards them? I am not perfect, no one is. We all fall short. So I guess we need to lift each other up. No matter what our faults may be. Love is to truly be there for one another. Continually growing and learning and maturing, but there is no such thing as a mature Christian in my personal opinion.

Cred, You have told Allheart to stick to the original question. Well I think you should follow your own advice. What was the original question of the OP, before you HIJACKED THE THREAD? Please get back to the original post. Thank you. Can you answer what makes a mature Christian? What you think a mature Christian is?

Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian? Maybe share some examples. I'm considering St. Paul's advice to become mature in your faith, to not need milk like a babe. I mean so many I know are constantly going over the same old themes, Garden of Eden, Moses' life story, Noah and the Ark. Constantly rehashing every little piece of Scripture (should THIS be taken literally??) like their life depended on it. Or those I know that talk behind my back or think they can't play certain songs or use certain bad words around me. I mean, get real. Is it reaching outside your self, truly caring about other people whether they do in return? I will consider any answers you've got.

Here is a reminder.

Cred, You have told Allheart to stick to the original question.
Dear Joe : No, I did not told her that : I told her to keep to the subject we were at that moment discussing , and that for sure is related to the original question : how can anybody ever becomes a "mature" Christian, when there is no supporting reason for being a Christian in the first place, and so many reasons to drop Christianity completely as religion?

If you want posts to keep on their narrow Christian-only base, they should be posted in Religion - Christianity, and not here.

:rolleyes:

·

Do you consider your wife a mature Christian Cred??

The Greatest blessing in my World, Is my Wife and my Beautiful son.
Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.
Give not over thy soul to sorrow; and afflict not thyself in thy own counsel. Gladness of heart is the life of man and the joyfulness of man is length of days.
Joe, isn't it funny that I agree with most of that?
Only I do not call it blessing, but good fortune, and that I have 2 daughters, 1 son, and 6 grandchildren.
All that is a little questionable is the suggested-to-exist "soul". Call it "thinking" and I'll buy it !

:)

·

Do you consider your wife a mature Christian Cred?????

The only "mature" item in my life is the cheese I like.
But my wife is for sure a deeply believing and serious Christian, who does not only babble about "the word", but spreads it too, in both word and deed, N0help4u ! Specially in deeds ! And that is why I respect her views above that of many others, who talk about that, but do in reality very little with it.

:)

·

Well seeing we are stuck on the computer it does make it rather hard for us to live up to your wife in your eyes cause you see her living it everyday but that doesn't mean many of us do not live in deed by the things we do for others and so forth.

well seeing we are stuck on the computer it does make it rather hard for us to live up to your wife in your eyes cause you see her living it everyday but that doesn't mean many of us do not live in deed by the things we do for others and so forth.
You are not in competition with my wife's religious values or validity.
If what you state is true, why do you post so many empty words here, and instead tell people on HOW and WHY you implement the Christian Mission into your and other people's lives?

The proof is not in the babble cake, but in the custard reality of your actions...

Oh... I know, I know : that is not what you wanted to see here...

:rolleyes:

·

Like you said I and others are not in competition so I do not have to prove anything.
Not what I wanted to see here..
Your words not mine and

I like how you refer to stuff as empty words when you don't know what else to say.

Tell people on HOW and WHY you implement the Christian Mission into your and other people's lives?
Good question for another post
I might even enjoy replying to it!!

I do believe I did reply to a couple similar questions here before.

I do believe I did reply to a couple similar questions here before.
Let me say it this way, N0help4u : My wife implements her Christian values in her life in word and deed.
And I implement my Secular Humanistic values in my life also in word and deed.

If all theists would do the same, we would have heaven here on earth.
So why don't we have heaven here? Because most people only TALK about it, and than continue mainly with their own interests. They do not "spread their word".

Think about that, and later to day I will follow up here. The beach is waiting with lot's of sunshine and a nice breeze from sea. Adios!

:)

·

I hear you. I am always saying too many people CHRISTIAN OR NON are too stuck in their rut and very complacent. How many times have I said people go to work, go home, run to Wal Mart, run home, cook and then sit in front of the TV and when anything is brought up they say it doesn't affect them so they do not care.

No, not on "luck". But I do hang my hat on my own capacities, on my own responsibilities, on my own tolerance for those who had less "luck" than I had in life, and on my feelings of concern and need of others for care. Only that way we can reach here on earth what theists hope to get after they are dead : peace !

I do not need a deity that has never been objectively proved to exist. As a Secular Humanist I care for - specially - the poorest and the weakest under us mortal humans.
Because it is sure THAT many such people exist, and that they require our support.
And while no deity seems to exist, although it is claimed to have gigantic capacities but has never shown itself in an objective way to humanity, I am very skeptic to it's existence.

If only all these theists were less busy trying to improve their odds on a "good" chance for the hereafter, and more busy by spreading the word in an indirect way (by taking better care of their social responsibilities) ... How much better this world would be ...


And you never ask yourself really why amputees NEVER restore limbs, but you believe all these wild claims on "God's" mysterious answering of other people's prayers - all but regrowing amputated limbs? That does not ever plants a little seed of doubt in your mind? Really ?

:)

·


Hi Cred,

My hand to heart, I have never in my 45 years questioned God, His love, His mercy, and I never ever even uttered "Why, God". I mostly say, "God, please help me and others through this".

When my Father-in-law, who has passed, who I miss with all my heart, who I love with all my soul, became an amputee, I never questioned God, but I did pray so hard, to help us all through it. And Cred, He did. He brought my Father-in-law home, to a place of peace and had the most peaceful and loving passing. I am so grateful to God for that.

What does my heart so good, is that you have a beautiful loving wife, who does believe in words and in actions. Now Cred, I am going to be hyprocrital here, and apologize in advance because I could never even consider, for one second, to contemplate, hmmm maybe God doesn't exsist. I'm sorry, I just couldn't do that. It would be like you having the most loving Father, who was always there for you, held your little hand through all your scrapes, and one day you approach him and ask, "Are you really my father?". So, Cred, I couldn't ever consider it.

And here is where I become hyprocrital, did you ever, even for a second, think, that maybe, just maybe, God bless you with your beautiful wife, not only to bring you great happiness, but through her, in His heart, He is hoping her love for you and your love for her, can bring you to God's love?

Our Father, tries so many loving ways to bring us to Him, but if we keep hanging up the phone on Him, there will be a day, He stops calling.

I hope you take all of this in the loving way it is truly meant.

I don't mind him hanging around my thread. He obviously wants something. Like he says he's discriminated against having no forum of his own. And if he didn't hang around there'd be no opportunity to witness to him. Although from what other members have said he's been witnessed to by Bushg and Maria for over 8 years, so don't hold your breath. I'd like to say that I was once bitten by a brown recluse spider, this spider bite causes gangrene and the tip of my finger turned black and fell off. But it grew back. Apparently a finger cut above the last joint will do this too. So there may be an answer out there for regenerating whole limbs some day in stem cell research or some other place. Like at one time we knew nothing about CPR or open heart surgery (or surgery of any kind)I'd like to know how when a caterpillar turns into a butterfly, how does he do that, and where do all his legs go?So if a little butterfly can grow wings where he had none before, there is something at work there that we don't yet understand.

I don't mind him hanging around my thread. He obviously wants something.
The idea here is to discuss : that is why it is called : Religious Discussions.
And I do not care if you mind or not. That is totally irrelevant.
I react on the posts made here, and I provide my opinion within the greater framework of the question and all related follow-up and background information.

All I want is to discuss here on equal terms, and with full freedom of expression.
Most of what I have seen so far are frustrated and angered Christians who can't accept that this is NOT some second board of Christianity where their views are beyond any scrutiny.

:rolleyes:

·

Cred, I am actually glad that you are here. You never said you don't believe, just that you want proof.

Stick around and hopefully you will see proof, but not in the way we normally obtain it.

Cred, I am actually glad that you are here. You never said you don't believe, just that you want proof.
As convinced Secular Humanist I do not expect ever to believe in a religious world view. If it were a live or die situation I would become a Buddhist. Because they do not demand that one accepts any supra-natural define entity / deity.


Stick around and hopefully you will see proof, but not in the way we normally obtain it.
Yes for sure, I doubt that, If so it should be! :)
To "see" proof it has to exist, and I sincerely doubt that !

;)

·

Well as Jesus said, this generation seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given it, except the sign of Jonah. People in Jesus' day were constantly flocking to him to cure them of every sort of problem. They were missing the point, that this body is passing away, whether it is perfect or not. If He didn't cure them, they didn't want to believe. What good would it do them to be perfectly healthy and wonderfully dressed, etc if they were on the road to destruction? Like He said, better to get to heaven with one good eye than to be cast into Gehenna with two good ones.

Like He said, better to get to heaven with one good eye than to be cast into Gehenna with two good ones.
So.. . And that makes you a mature Christian ?

:D :D :D :D :D

·

I don't understand this question. It's not about me, I'm quoting part of the Bible there, and if I was a mature Christian I would hardly be asking questions about how to become one. I'm thinking St. Paul had maturity in mind as some have responded here, living your faith, not just constantly debating about ideas. The Israelites in the wilderness were fed with manna. But they complained that they had to go out and pick it up! Like they thought they should just stand there like a baby bird with it's mouth open and the food would drop in or something. So we must mature, not constantly need milk like a helpless babe.

That is not true and honest : most of your posts are full of twisting words, sentences, and complete meanings of what was posted earlier.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true Credendo. Prove it. Show where I twisted anyone's words.


lso your posts do not reflect the goal and intention of the Christian mission : "go forth and spread the word" (not only in your words, but specially in your attitude and deeds). You and your attitude on this board have already done more harm to Christianity than an army of angry atheists ever could achieve - if they wanted to do so.

Lol!!

I have faith in God. Not in my words. I am not surprised that you and a great many here. Even many believers get upset by my messages. They also get upset at the Master's messge.

John 15 18 If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.


You and those like you are only upset because I follow Christ and not you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes, I would expect you to disregard the teaching of both Jesus and St. Peter and return insults for insults.

Oh, you're just upset because I always prove you wrong. The fact is that you and others like you feel that Christians should be pushovers who don't talk back. But that isn't the case. Neither Jesus nor St. Peter were such.

Although Scripture says we should not render evil for evil, that has nothing to do with debate. That has to do with persecution and affliction. This is the basis of the Just War doctrine. When we are attacked, we defend ourselves, and when God grants us victory, we don't abuse those who lost. We treat them with as much dignity as possible under the circumstances.

In debate, we are called to:

2 Tim 4: 1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: 2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.

Of course, if I find that the individual with whom I'm speaking isn't worth my effort, I'm called to:

2 Tim 3:1 Know also this, that, in the last days, shall come dangerous times. 2 Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, 3 Without affection, without peace, slanderers, incontinent, unmerciful, without kindness, 4 Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasures more than of God: 5 Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.

So, if you ever notice that I'm avoiding a discussion with you, you'll know why.

Sincerely,

De Maria

DeMaria,

This is exactly what I was trying to communicate to you. How does the above demonstrate a loving follower of Christ.

Easily. I emulate Jesus Christ as closely as possible. You seem to be under the false impression that Jesus Christ never issued a harsh word. You are wrong. Jesus Christ frequently spoke harshly to many:

Read this:
Douay-Rheims Bible, Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 23 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=23&l=13&f=s#x)

Where did you get the impression that Jesus would remain silent in the presence of sin? Do you believe that Jesus' did not admonish the sinners when He dined with them?

Have you not heard:
2 Timothy 1 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but labour with the gospel, according to the power of God, 9 Who hath delivered us and called us by his holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the times of the world. 10 But is now made manifest by the illumination of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath destroyed death, and hath brought to light life and incorruption by the gospel:

This is how the Apostles lived, this is how the Saints lived. They didn't worry about hurting a few people's feelings if it might save their souls.


Any good that may be in your messages, is lost with this type of thinking.

That's not for you to judge. I just plant seeds. It is God who waters. Besides, I've had many who thank me for the message I bring.


I did try to respond to your last PM, but when I hit send, it blinked away. I took it as the will of God. I truly did.

That's fine, but then why did you write this?


There should be no harshness amongst those who believe or even amongst those who don't believe.

Where did you learn that?

1 Corinthians 4 14 I write not these things to confound you; but I admonish you as my dearest children.

Now, I've tried to admonish you that you seem to be approving of the sin of homosexuality. But instead you've taken that as an insult. That is your problem.

Again, as Scripture says:
Ez 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore thou shalt hear the word from my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me. 8 When I say to the wicked: O wicked man, thou shalt surely die: if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked man from his way: that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. 9 But if thou tell the wicked man, that he may be converted from his ways, and he be not converted from his way: he shall die in his iniquity: but thou hast delivered thy soul. 10 Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: Thus you have spoken, saying: Our iniquities, and our sins are upon us, and we pine away in them: how then can we live?

Oh I know what you'll say. "Now he's calling me wicked!" That's fine, if you want to take the admonition in that manner, I've done my duty by you. To repeat, in case you've forgotten the message, I've informed you that it is not love to permit people to believe that they may remain in their sin and God will love them still.


You may think I trade the praise of man for being in favor in God's eyes, but as I told you in my PM back to you, that could not be further from the truth. In life, my thoughts, heart, and viewpoints, usually make me stand alone and it's where I choose to stay, for I would not change what I believe in my heart for anyone's approval, except Gods.

If that be so then believe when I tell you that God wants you to help your brethren shed their sin:

James 5 19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: I mean this with all sincerity, I wish you great joy and pray that love touches your heart and surrounds you. 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.


May you see the good in people as well as areas that may need improvement and share God's word and love, in a way that will bring others to Him.

Thank you. I pray the same for you.


And may you no longer judge me wrongly and may I not do the same of you.

I don't judge you. I judge your words. As I said in my pm, your message seemed to approve of the sin of homosexuality.

You said, and I quote:

For those of you, who have never been hurt by other's comments - Judge the gay community.

For those of you, who have never felt different, been teased or ridiculed for being different - Point your finger at the gay community and tell them how horrible they are.

For those of you who have never felt overweight, underweight, too tall, too small - Stand up and let your negative voice and opinions be heard in reference to the Gay community.


For those of you, who never felt heartache from not being able to be with the one you love, whose hearts have never been broken - Lash out at the gay community for wanting to love.

But for all of those who know what it feels like to be different, to have your feelings hurt, to feel unloved and wanted by so many - remember that pain - and embrace all that share that pain - black, white, gay, bi, straight, tall, short - your brothers and sisters.

Don't try and stand in God's shoes - they will never fit any of us.

Apparently, you say that because you think I'm too harsh in saying that homosexuality is a mortal sin that will lead people to hell if they persist in it.

I don't believe its harsh at all. I believe it is the truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Oh, you're just upset because I always prove you wrong.
The only thing you've proved is that you have a chip on your shoulder.

The fact is that you and others like you feel that Christians should be pushovers who don't talk back.I don't "feel that Christians should be" any particular way, and I know that each one interprets Jesus' teachings for himself, just as you have demonstrated. But I will say that I haven't found your degree of belligerence to be typical of "Christians" generally. You're in a class by yourself.

Then again, maybe my friendly and helpful Christian neighbors would be just as argumentative and insulting as you are if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide behind, who knows?
...


So, if you ever notice that I'm avoiding a discussion with you, you'll know why.I would welcome that, should it ever happen, no matter why.

The only thing you've proved is that you have a chip on your shoulder.

No, no. I've proved that I knock chips off anti-Christian shoulders. But I have no chip on mine.


I don't "feel that Christians should be" any particular way, and I know that each one interprets Jesus' teachings for himself, just as you have demonstrated.

Actually, no. I interpret Scripture according to the Spirit in which it was written, the culture and times in which it was written and according to Church Tradition. Just as the Church teaches.

It is you who interprets Scripture according to your particular way. Right now, you are simply using Scripture to attempt to prove me wrong. But you are not a person who cares one whit about Scripture, therefore you know nothing about it.

If you had any knowledge of Scripture, you might be able to discuss that intelligently. But instead you just make uninformed accusations. That is your way. You think because you say so, it must be true. But it isn't.


But I will say that I haven't found your degree of belligerence to be typical of "Christians" generally. You're in a class by yourself.

Belligerence?
Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.
Library.thinkquest.org/CR0211900/call/vocabulary_for_chapter_ii.htm

You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive. How do you feel about those who want to insult me?

Do you understand the concept of "Justice"?

Justice is a collective name which can be divided into two broad perspectives. Just behavior; a concern for genuine respect and treatment, which is to be regarded as fair and equal.. .
En.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

Or do you believe that nonChristians can insult Christians with impunity? Please tell me, why am I unjust if I defend myself from insult and your antiChristian brethren are not unjust when they insult me and other Christians?


Then again, maybe my friendly and helpful Christian neighbors would be just as argumentative and insulting as you are if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide behind, who knows?

There you go with veiled insults of all Christians.

And maybe my friendly nonChristian neighbors would be just as insulting and aggressive if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide as well.

So what's the point? Are you belligerent towards me and other Christians because you hide behind the internet?


I would welcome that, should it ever happen, no matter why.

That's too bad. So far you haven't crossed that line. And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.

Sincerely,

De Maria

No, no. I've proved that I knock chips off anti-Christian shoulders. But I have no chip on mine.



Actually, no. I interpret Scripture according to the Spirit in which it was written, the culture and times in which it was written and according to Church Tradition. Just as the Church teaches.

It is you who interprets Scripture according to your particular way. Right now, you are simply using Scripture to attempt to prove me wrong. But you are not a person who cares one whit about Scripture, therefore you know nothing about it.

If you had any knowledge of Scripture, you might be able to discuss that intelligently. But instead you just make uninformed accusations. That is your way. You think because you say so, it must be true. But it isn't.



Belligerence?
Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.
library.thinkquest.org/CR0211900/call/vocabulary_for_chapter_ii.htm

You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive. How do you feel about those who want to insult me?

Do you understand the concept of "Justice"?

Justice is a collective name which can be divided into two broad perspectives. Just behavior; a concern for genuine respect and treatment, which is to be regarded as fair and equal. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

Or do you believe that nonChristians can insult Christians with impunity? Please tell me, why am I unjust if I defend myself from insult and your antiChristian brethren are not unjust when they insult me and other Christians?



There you go with veiled insults of all Christians.

And maybe my friendly nonChristian neighbors would be just as insulting and aggressive if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide as well.

So whats the point? Are you belligerent towards me and other Christians because you hide behind the internet?



Thats too bad. So far you haven't crossed that line. And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.

Sincerely,

De Maria


De Maria,

I honestly was wondering and praying that you were all right as I have not seen you around. I am glad to see you are okay.

But you still get me wrong and I will just share with you that I have God's love in my heart
And I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing, just wishing you peace.

Belligerence?
Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.

You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive.
I'm not generalizing, I'm talking about you, specifically, as an individual. Based on your posts on this site, I'd say "Hostile and inclined to be aggressive" is a pretty accurate description.


How do you feel about those who want to insult me?I feel that they also fall short of the ideals embodied in the teachings of Jesus and St. Peter, but I sympathize with their temptation.

And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.Glad I could be of help.

I'm not generalizing, I'm talking about you, specifically, as an individual.

I understand that you are referring to me.


Based on your posts on this site, I'd say "Hostile and inclined to be aggressive" is a pretty accurate description.

Show me one of my posts which fits that description which was not in response to a poster who was hostile and aggressive towards Christians or towards me.


I feel that they also fall short of the ideals embodied in the teachings of Jesus and St. Peter, but I sympathize with their temptation.


You don't strike me as person who has ever studied the teachings of Jesus Christ. Much less do you strike me as one who understands their teachings. But that is only to be expected:

Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Without faith in God, you will not understand the Scriptures.


Glad I could be of help.

You're welcome.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,

I honestly was wondering and praying that you were all right as I have not seen you around. I am glad to see you are okay.

I'm fine. Thanks for the concern. FYI, I am usually here one week on and one week off. I'll be leaving for another week soon.


But you still get me wrong

Get you wrong? Do you mean that I misunderstood what you said? Why not clarify it then, just for the record?


and I will just share with you that I have God's love in my heart and I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing, just wishing you peace.

Peace to you as well Allheart,

Sincerely,

De Maria

You don't strike me as person who has ever studied the teachings of Jesus Christ. But I have, and I do.

Much less do you strike me as one who understands their teachings.I understand them quite differently than you do, that much is clear.

If you all could please avoid quoting and requoting each other, it would make this question much shorter and easier to read, especially for people who are interested in the original question and answering it. Maybe you could just use each other's names, like Dear So and So, instead of a few hundred lines of quoted text. Or just use your PM feature.

... or pick a point and make a new post.

But I have, and I do.
I understand them quite differently than you do, that much is clear.

You study the Scriptures? I'm surprised. I'm glad as well. If that is true, the Scriptures will lead you to Christ.

I'm fine. Thanks for the concern. FYI, I am usually here one week on and one week off. I'll be leaving for another week soon.



Get you wrong? Do you mean that I misunderstood what you said? Why not clarify it then, just for the record?



Peace to you as well Allheart,

Sincerely,

De Maria

DeMaria,

I just can't go into things at the moment. I am so emotionally tired. Not so much from particapting in the different threads, but each day I leave my home, life just chips at my heart over and over and I am so very tired.

I am looking forward, so very much, to the weekend, being with my husband who loves me and being around people who love me.

I am sorry that this isn't much of a response back, but I am unfortunately the unhealthy over sensitive type ( again, nothing here on the sight, but life and all that gets aimed at me in the course of the day)

My heart is just broken, and it is heavy and cries, keep me in your prayers, and I will you and all others too.

I will heal, I just need to be around those that do love me and keep my heart safe.

May God bless and keep you,
Allheart.

DeMaria,
... I will heal, I just need to be around those that do love me and keep my heart safe.

May God bless and keep you,
Allheart.

May God bless you as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You study the Scriptures? I'm surprised.That doesn't surprise me.

If that is true, the Scriptures will lead you to Christ.We've been on a first-name basis for years.

And I challenge that anyone who is not a Christian can't honestly even address and answer the question, since the question is "what makes somewhere a mature Christian, the question is not is there or is there not mature christians, the question is not is there really christianity, so anyone that does not merely list ways to be a mature christian is not addressing the question as stated but are in reality perhaps highjacking the thread for their own purpose perhaps.

So yes Credendovidis is correct, all posts should address the actual question as posted

Her point was:
My point was that if coming through a car wreck unscathed is a reason to believe in God, surely having no wreck at all would be an even better reason.
Surely you aren't saying that the lack of accidents in my life is evidence that I'm walking with the devil? No, I'm not. But do you believe? It's hard to tell, it seems you do not. If you have had no close calls, that's great. For those of us who have and survived in a miraculous way....no other explaination...that doesn't make us believe in God more, it only moves us to tell others of His greatness and what He has done for us.

It just seems to me foolish and misguided to suppose that the health and safety of our physical body is any indication of God's existence or love for us. Sooner or later we all die as a result of accident or illness.
That is kind of the point too, we all die eventually, the question is where will we be for eternity. If one does not believe in God and the saving grace of Jesus Christ, I know, they will not enjoy their life after death. Death is not the end, it's only the beginning.

Faith is knowing that what I belive is true. What you believe is up to you. If you don't believe in God, why do you fight against Him so much and those that do believe?

Personally if I don't believe something, I do not feel the need to debate it. I don't understand so many people who say God does not exist, and yet they feel obsessed with debating His existance. Can you explain that?:cool:

For example, I don't believe two headed monsters exist...so if someone else does, I simply smile and ignore it.
:)

(I don't know how this happened, I was answering a different question and it showed up here.)

Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian?


A mature Christian walks in love. God is love, love is God. To love God and to love our neighbors as well as our enemies is a command. It is also the best way to grow as a Christian.

Reading the Word, spending time with God, praise and worship are great, but if after we have done all that, then go to the grocery store and are rude to the clerk, or don't put out cart back, or... you get the point, then all the other was lip service. Our service to God is to show His love to others by being an example. Love on purpose. Do what is right even when no one is looking. Faith without works is dead... the works as Christians are to love others as ourselves. That is a tall order and only comes with practice and more practice.

Self control is one of the fruit of the spirit given to us when we got saved, along with love, joy, peace, faith, meekness, gentleness... but those don't activate themselves, we have to submit to them. Fruit has to be tended to in order for it to grow and mature. God has given us all we need to grow into the image of Christ. It's a matter of making good choices.

Emotions are just that, they come and go, but disciplining ourselves to 'walk in love' will cause us to be more like Jesus and that is what a mature Christian is... like Jesus, who went about doing good and healing all where oppressed of the devil. Not just sick folk, oppression comes in many forms.
Even something as simple as smiling at someone who is having a bad day.

Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian?


A mature Christian walks in love. God is love, love is God. To love God and to love our neighbors as well as our enemies is a command. It is also the best way to grow as a Christian.

Reading the Word, spending time with God, praise and worship are great, but if after we have done all that, then go to the grocery store and are rude to the clerk, or don't put out cart back, or...you get the point, then all the other was lip service. Our service to God is to show His love to others by being an example. Love on purpose. Do what is right even when no one is looking. Faith without works is dead...the works as Christians are to love others as ourselves. That is a tall order and only comes with practice and more practice.

Self control is one of the fruit of the spirit given to us when we got saved, along with love, joy, peace, faith, meekness, gentleness......but those dont activate themselves, we have to submit to them. Fruit has to be tended to in order for it to grow and mature. God has given us all we need to grow into the image of Christ. It's a matter of making good choices.

Emotions are just that, they come and go, but disciplining ourselves to 'walk in love' will cause us to be more like Jesus and that is what a mature Christian is...like Jesus, who went about doing good and healing all where oppressed of the devil. Not just sick folk, oppression comes in many forms.
Even something as simple as smiling at someone who is having a bad day.

Tsila77 - Welcome to the site.

I agree, love, embrace all that you wrote and believe. It touched my heart, made me smile and gave me great peace.

Thank you.

Love is the greatest gift. To love others is Gods purpose in our lives and is the greatest gift we have been given by God, and he does not want us to keep it for ourselves but to be an endless supply to others.

The love of being a parent, child, spouse, friend. It is endless what can be done in the world. Excellent thoughts on what it means to be a mature Christian, and thinking about it more, I think that is the best aspect. I also agree with Tsila77.

Take care everyone, and hope all is well with you all. All my American friends hope you have had an awesome celebration and enjoy your long weekend.

Joe

Love is the greatest gift. To love others is Gods purpose in our lives and is the greatest gift we have been given by God, and he does not want us to keep it for ourselves but to be an endless supply to others.

The love of being a parent, child, spouse, friend. It is endless what can be done in the world. Excellant thoughts on what it means to be a mature Christian, and thinking about it more, I think that is the best aspect. I also agree with Tsila77.

Take care everyone, and hope all is well with you all. All my American friends hope you have had an awesome celebration and enjoy your long weekend.

Joe

Joe, you have a beautiful heart, you are a beautiful man, and I am truly blessed to know you.

May God continue to watch over you and your precious loved ones.

Allheart

But do you believe? It's hard to tell, it seems you do not.
It should be hard to tell, since I haven't really said, at least not in this thread. The truth is, I believe some things and not others, so you're partially correct in inferring that I don't.

One of the things I don't believe is that God is responsible and to be praised for all the miraculous good fortune that comes our way, but that it's Satan, or our own sin, or the sin of the world, or the sin of Adam, or some other non-God force that's responsible for any sickness, accident, or tragedy that befalls us. If absolutely everything doesn't come from God, then nothing does, is how I see it.


That is kind of the point too, we all die eventually, the question is where will we be for eternity.
Well, see, for me, that is EMPHATICALLY NOT the question. For me, the important question is, "How will the beliefs and attitudes that I choose affect my most important relationships and the way I live this earthly life before the death of my physical body?" I figure if I can get that right, I can be content, in spite of not knowing what comes next. That's what I call faith.

If one does not believe in God and the saving grace of Jesus Christ, I know, they will not enjoy their life after death. Death is not the end, it's only the beginning.

Faith is knowing that what I believe is true.With all due respect, what you "know" about the afterlife is based on exactly the same evidence that is available to the rest of us, so what you believe is true for you, and those who agree with you--nobody else.


What you believe is up to you.Yes, we're all alike in that way.


If you don't believe in God, why do you fight against Him so much and those that do believe?I haven't said that I don't believe in God, but it is probably true that I don't believe in exactly the same God you do. Still, I don't see what we're doing here as fighting, do you?


I don't understand so many people who say God does not exist, and yet they feel obsessed with debating His existence. Can you explain that?Since I'm not one of them, no.

And I challege that anyone who is not a Christian can't honestly even address and answer the question ...
In that case I suggest this question to be transferred to the Christianity board.

:rolleyes:

·

Although I am not a Christian, my reply to that question is a valid one for everyone and for every worldview.

A true and mature "Christian" is a "Christian" who shows by his/her actions and posture that he/she identifies and involves the "Christian religion" in all parts of his/her life.

This in contrast with that majority of believers who "do what has to be done", prefer to pick the cherries out of the bowl of life, and cut corners where ever possible.

:)
Have you actually met these "majority of believers who "do what has to be done", prefer to pick the cherries out of the bowl of life, and cut corners where ever possible" that you speak of so boldly? And so indecipherable?

Have you actually met these "majority of believers who "do what has to be done", prefer to pick the cherries out of the bowl of life, and cut corners where ever possible" that you speak of so boldly?
Many of them. There seems even to be an entire colony of them here on this board !

:D

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Many of them. There seems even to be an entire colony of them here on this board !

:D

·


Yes correct wording seems to be :D

Yes correct wording seems to be :D
What an extremely retarded reaction ! That is why I precisely choose these words... I know how to express myself correctly, unlike so many theists who do not know the different between what they BELIEVE and what is REAL !

:rolleyes:

·

And I was agreeing with you... so what is the problem??

and I was agreeing with you....so what is the problem????
Don't lie. You were not.

:rolleyes:

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Many of them. There seems even to be an entire colony of them here on this board

Yes correct wording seems to be

I agreed that to you there seems to be

Let's keep to the subject ....

Why does "God" not restore amputated limbs?
Specially when "God" is claimed to do so many wonders daily ...

Could all these wonders not be just "luck"?
Could it be that "God" just does not exist or that "God" does not care about you, me , or anyone else?
I know that may sound terrible to you, but still it is a fair question to ask !

For sure it are perfect reasons why limbs are never restored ....

:( ·


It could be lack of faith, God does nothing except by faith. He is a faith God, without faith it is impossible to please God. So instead of being angry with Him, perhaps you should humble yourself like a little child and ask, believing you receive when you pray, and He will restore. If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, He would do it.

One way to prove me wrong is to try it, if you really want to prove me wrong... let me know what happens.

It could be lack of faith, God does nothing except by faith. He is a faith God, without faith it is impossible to please God.
That is just what you BELIEVE. Can you prove that to be so? No, is it not. At least not without more BELIEF !


So instead of being angry with Him....
Angry? It has nothing to do with being angry. Not even on a so far never-proved-to-exist deity.
I just state that so far no amputated human limb has ever regrown into a full new limb. But if you have any information on where that did happen , please post it here.

:rolleyes:

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Cred... this thread is about what makes one a mature christian. If you are not going/able to give an example of that then maybe you should not be responding on this question.

You do not seem to go by the same rules that you request of others on the threads that you start. Silly man.

cred...this thread is about what makes one a mature christian. If you are not going/able to give an example of that then maybe you should not be responding on this question.

You do not seem to go by the same rules that you request of others on the threads that you start. Silly man.


N0help4u agrees: I second that!!

Greenie: :D

"That is just what you BELIEVE. Can you prove that to be so? No, is it not. At least not without more BELIEF !"

What she asks totally confused...

Yes, I can give you names, dates and places... I have seen with my own eyes miracles of restoration, healings, and many other miracles, but to tell you about them here would be a waste of my time and energy; a waste of space.


But for the one who asked about faith:

There is documented proof of people being raised from the dead.

My sister was given 6 months to live, that was 3 years ago, she is cancer free and it was by faith. She has given her testimony on tape to many and it has increased their faith to believe for their own healing. Because Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

I believed before I saw, therefore I am blessed, but since I have believed I have seen many things to confirm my faith... so many things... that could ONLY have been God.

Can one document a coincidence? I don't think so.

"[B]

My sister was given 6 months to live, that was 3 years ago, she is cancer free and it was by faith. She has given her testimony on tape to many and it has increased their faith to believe for their own healing. Because Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

I believed before I saw, therefore I am blessed, but since I have believed I have seen many things to confirm my faith....so many things...that could ONLY have been God.

Can one document a coincidence? I don't think so.

Skeptics just say that only proved you had power of positive thinking within your own self and nothing to do with proving God.

Fortunately, skeptics matter so little to me, I scarcely notice them. If they saw for themselves a leg grow back from a stub, or a man raised from the dead, they still would not believe. It was the same in the time that Jesus walked the earth and did many signs and wonders, it will always be that way until He returns and then there will be no skeptics left. I can wait.

Fortunately, skeptics matter so little to me, I scarcely notice them. If they saw for themselves a leg grow back from a stub, or a man raised from the dead, they still would not believe. It was the same in the time that Jesus walked the earth and did many signs and wonders, it will always be that way until He returns and then there will be no skeptics left. I can wait.

Ain't that the honest to God's truth!!

Amen!!

Yes, I can give you names, dates and places...I have seen with my own eyes miracles of restoration, healings, and many other miracles, but to tell you about them here would be a waste of my time and energy; a waste of space.
In other words : actually you can not provide the evidence I asked you !


There is documented proof of people being raised from the dead.
That still does not support the religious wild claims !


Can one document a coincidence? I don't think so.
Can you prove your wild claims? I don't think so.

:rolleyes:

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"How will the beliefs and attitudes that I choose affect my most important relationships and the way I live this earthly life before the death of my physical body?" I figure if I can get that right, I can be content, in spite of not knowing what comes next. That's what I call faith.



That's not faith dude, that's hiding your head in the sand.





With all due respect, what you "know" about the afterlife is based on exactly the same evidence that is available to the rest of us, so what you believe is true for you, and those who agree with you--nobody else.

Well, if I'm wrong, no harm done. But if you are wrong, there will be no mercy for your soul and you will be in Hell forever. :eek: Isn't it worth a second thought? I mean, just in case...................

cred...this thread is about what makes one a mature christian. If you are not going/able to give an example of that then maybe you should not be responding on this question.

You do not seem to go by the same rules that you request of others on the threads that you start. Silly man.

I completely agree here and it was said on so many pages before. Sticking to the topic but rarely it ever happens. Especially on this thread because somebody is always to busy arguing.

Also would like to add that the wording used by one of the members, the wording retarded response, that was uncalled for.

Can you prove your wild claims? I don't think so.
Can you give a responsive and respectful answer to the question, "What makes you a mature Christian?" I don't think so.

[quote=Credendovidis]In other words : actually you can not provide the evidence I asked you !

In other words you are not worth wasting my time on....

That still does not support the religious wild claims !

No? Are you really that nescient, or are you just ridiculous? I never tried to support religious claims anyway...I support relationship, and the power of God Who is LOVE.

Can you prove your wild claims? I don't think so.

I don't have to prove anything...I just have to wait, and you'll see. :eek:

In other words you are not worth wasting my time on....
That is YOUR conclusion. Why do you try to put words into my mouth?


I don't have to prove anything...I just have to wait, and you'll see.
The problem with that is that you seem to demand from others that what you BELIEVE is the one and only truth. See the first part of my signature : you are a prime candidate to follow that suggestion !
As to that "wait and see" : I am already decades beyond that type of nonsensical "Pascal's wager" remarks.

:rolleyes:

.

Want to hear another cool story? My mailbox was on it's last legs. I was going to replace it, but the bolt holding it on was rusted. I would need two wrenches and a can of WD40 to get it loose, so I put it off. Then the guy across the street (mailbox is across the road) decided to cut the edge of his field so he could harvest his corn. He was using a sicklebar mower but went out of his way to hit my mailbox with it (box is about 3 1/2 feet above road, grass is 10 to 12 inches, ergo he needed to raise the mower to hit it.) So when I went back later my mailbox was neatly removed with no effort on my part and I put up the new one. Now here's the really cool part:The broken mailbox was shredded and landed in HIS field, where it went on to break the expensive blades on his combine, but enough shredded mailbox survived that to venture on to the feed mill where it clogged up the machinery and the mill where he sold his grain caught on fire and burned. Kind of an expensive act could easily all been avoided. Does anyone else see the hand of God? You go out of your way to mess with someone who's not bothering you, and the Creator smacks you one.

Originally Posted by tsila1777 In other words you are not worth wasting my time on...

That is YOUR conclusion. Why do you try to put words into my mouth?

What in heck does this question have to do with the comment?. it has NOTHING to do with the comment. And YES that is my conclusion. And even though it is so idiotic, I'll answer your stupid question:


Because you don't seem to be able to put any intelligent words in your mouth for yourself. So there!

As for the wait and you'll see... that still stands... you can't be past it, because it has not happened yet. Duh!

Yeah I was wondering how you not wasting your time is putting words in Cred's mouth:confused:

As for the wait and you'll see...that still stands...you can't be past it, because it has not happened yet.
I agree with you - and even underline - that it has not happened yet. I even think that it never will happen. That is what you get when you believe in mythical entities and deities for which no objective supporting evidence has ever been provided : you believe in such an entity for year, hand-over the vicar or priest a lot of money, but when you die, you - just like I - will fall asleep without ever to awake again.
No heaven , no hell , no "God", nothing. Well... : nobody has ever been able to prove that any of these really exist !
:rolleyes:

·

Does anyone else see the hand of God? You go out of your way to mess with someone who's not bothering you, and the Creator smacks you one.
All I see is human carelessness that resulted in tragedy. The fact that you see the result as God smacking him one says a lot about your concept of God, but not much about God. I don't think a mature Christian would assume that he went out of his way to mess with you by hitting your mailbox on purpose.

Well you have not lived next door to him for 25 years either. Him firing bullets off a street sign in the front yard while you are mowing your lawn there is one example, also he sees no need to use a manure spreader, just opens up the drain on his manure lagoon and lets the thousands of gallons spill into the stream flowing through our horse pasture out front. And like I said, it's a little hard to knock the TOP off a mailbox if you are mowing 10 to twelve inch weeds on the ground.

No heaven , no hell , no "God", nothing. Well ... : nobody has ever been able to prove that any of these really exist !
Just checked once more : and NO : still no such objective supported evidence has been provided... It all is still based on BELIEF and nothing else...

:D ;) :p :rolleyes: :D

·

Just checked once more : and NO : still no such objective supported evidence has been provided .... It all is still based on BELIEF and nothing else ....

:D ;) :p :rolleyes: :D

·

That's right. It's based on belief.

So is your statement, based on your belief... no prove of any kind that God is not real, or that Heaven is not real, no proof, just BELIEF.:p

That's right. It's based on belief. So is your statement, based on your belief...no prove of any kind that God is not real, or that Heaven is not real, no proof, just BELIEF.
Actually that is incorrect : in none of my posts I make statements on the existence or non-existence of any supra-natural entity. All I ask for is objective supporting evidence to the existence of any such existence. And THAT can never be twisted by anyone into some sort of belief by me. Even if you would really do your best...

:D :D :D :D :D

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https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../amhd_imgs/reputation/reputation_pos.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/credendovidis.html#latest_rep)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
As for the wait and you'll see...that still stands...you can't be past it, because it has not happened yet.

I agree with you - and even underline - that it has not happened yet. I even think that it never will happen. That is what you get when you believe in mythical entities and deities for which no objective supporting evidence has ever been provided : you believe in such an entity for year, hand-over the vicar or priest a lot of money, but when you die, you - just like I - will fall asleep without ever to awake again.
No heaven , no hell , no "God", nothing. Well ... : nobody has ever been able to prove that any of these really exist !



Dear Cred,

That is your belief. You have no proof of your wild claims.
__________________
·

Just checked once more : and NO : still no such objective supported evidence has been provided .... It all is still based on BELIEF and nothing else ....

:D ;) :p :rolleyes: :D

·
Jesus is real and history says so.
History of Jesus Christ (http://www.lifeofchrist.com/history/)

Jesus and history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_history)

Cred, what is it exactly that you are looking for? You seem to be on the fence.

Jesus is real and history says so.
Some historical records claim that there once was a human being that was called Jesus. But not even that is 100% sure. However there is not any objective supported evidence that this Jesus was God's son.
And THAT is the essence of Jesus and your religion...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[quote=Credendovidis]Some historical records claim that there once was a human being that was called Jesus. But not even that is 100% sure.

That's just your belief. :rolleyes:

However there is not any that this Jesus was God's son.

You have nothing to support these wild claims. It's only your faith in objective supported evidence, that you say that. It has nothing to do with the truth. OSE is your god. You have faith in OSE. You believe in OSE. Where is objective supported evidence that OSE is indeed correct or just something made up by a bunch of people who WANT to prove something is one way and not the other?


And THAT is the essence of Jesus and your religion ....

Relationship with God, Yes, it is.

:):)

That's just your belief.
Not so. There are indeed some historical records that claim that there once was a human being that was called Jesus. But if that is 100% sure?
I just provided the background, the possibilities. I did not claim anything myself... That is something theists do with their empty unsupported religious claims.


You have nothing to support these wild claims.
How can the sentence "However there is not any objective supported evidence that this Jesus was God's son" be a wild claim?
If there is any objective supported evidence that Jesus was God's son : WHERE IS THAT EVIDENCE ???


Relationship with God, Yes, it is.
And wrong again!! The essence of the Christian religion is that Jesus - as God's son - through his death on the cross provided a way to save you from your sins. The unsupported claim that Jesus was God's son is the important part here. Hence the title "Christ", and the resulting religion "Christianity"...

What a silly response you posted, tsila1666 ! It seems that your focus is more on trying to attack me than in the Christian mission to "spread the word"...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

·

What a silly response you posted, tsila1666 ! It seems that your focus is more on trying to attack me than in the Christian mission to "spread the word" ....

Was that a mistake or an attack... tsila1666? Be careful, Cred!

You have done nothing but attack Believers that is your purpose in life.

I am trying to get you to see that you have faith, great faith in something. You believe in something.

Originally Posted by tsila1777
Relationship with God, Yes, it is.

And wrong again!! PROVE IT!!! You cannot prove that I do not have a relationship with God. And to continue to argue about this is pointless. If all you can add to the conversation is that is your belief, that is what you believe, still no proof, you can’t prove that….you can’t unprove it either, so why do you continue?

The essence of the Christian religion is that Jesus - as God's son - through his death on the cross provided a way to save you from your sins. The unsupported claim that Jesus was God's son is the important part here. Hence the title "Christ", and the resulting religion "Christianity"... This is what you believe; can't you understand that?

Seriously!


We have faith in God; you have faith that there is no God. We believe Jesus is God's Own Son, you believe Jesus is not God's Own Son. We believe that Jesus died for our sins and was raised for our justification. You believe He did not.

One of us is wrong.

You ask for proof. God asks for faith. We have faith.

Someday, you will get your proof... but it will not be on this board.

Someday, you will bow your knee and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God, but it will be too late.

How can the sentence "However there is not any objective supported evidence that this Jesus was God's son" be a wild claim?
If there is any objective supported evidence that Jesus was God's son : WHERE IS THAT EVIDENCE ???

Because objective supported evidence is your god. And nothing more and of no importance!! It is your sacred cow and very worthless.

I was not attacking you; I was giving you an example of what you do. If you consider that as an attack on you, then what have you been doing?

You have done nothing but attack Believers that is your purpose in life.
What a nonsense ! Essentially all I do is underline that whatever you BELIEVE is therefore not reality!! And that that drives you up the wall is your problem...

:D

·

What a nonsense ! Essentially all I do is underline that whatever you BELIEVE is therefore not reality !!! And that that drives you up the wall is your problem ....

:D

·


Cred;

What a person BELIEVES can be REALITY.

Here is an example:

Paper money - it is just "legal tender," it has no intrinsic value. Why should this paper with 100 purchase more than this paper that says 1? It has worth because buyer and seller BELIEVE it has worth, and that is REALITY. Oh , you say, but a government is backing the value of that paper; but, there I also have to BELIEVE that that government will be uphold the value of that paper.

You would go insane trying to prove every little thing we take for granted is indeed reality:

will this road lead me to where I want to go?

does she really love me?

is the expiration date on this milk true?

is the gas gauge really accurate, or will I run out of gas on half a tank?

What a life :eek: when you don't believe in anything :confused:



You know, God did not personally appear to me, and physically touch me and say, "yoo hoo, Box guy, I'm here in reality, now you can believe in me!"

His word is enough. :D

After reading all that I wrote to you, that is the best you can come up with Cred? How predictable! Just goes to prove my point that you do not have anything of interest to say. You really do not have anything of importance to add to the conversation, do you?

Do you really think it 'drives me up the wall'? You are badly mistaken. I feel sorry for you. The topic is what makes a you a mature Christian. If you do not have an answer, why are you here?

Is that what you are trying to do, drive us up the wall? Do you not have anything better to do with your time? Poor Cred, you need to find another hobby. Do you like backpacking, camping, hiking, golf? You need to get out more and enjoy your life, because when its over, if you do not repent, you know where you are going to be.

And deny it all you want, that will not make it untrue. You need to repent and give your life to Christ before its too late. I do not know how old you are, but I picture you as quite old, if that is so, then you do not have much time left.

Jesus took your sins, even persecuting the Church, which is what you are doing here, and we were told to expect it. We were told that we should rejoice that we are worthy to be persecuted for Christ's sake.

So, I say Praise the Lord, I'm worthy.

But for you Cred, seriously, you need to think about it.

What a person BELIEVES can be REALITY.
Sure. But that is no guarantee that it is a reality. In almost all cases it will NOT be reality.


His ("God") word is enough.
For you it may, as you BELIEVE it is "god's" word. For me it does not, as I do not see any objective supporting evidence for either that being "god's" word, or for "god's" existence in the first place.

:rolleyes:

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