We know that when jesus was killed the books of the new testament were written as early as 70AD, 40 years after his death or as late as 110 AD Is it possible that he was a myth that grew. And never existed like many of the Gods before him or was he just a man that lived then died and these myths made it into the jesus stories, Considering all of the years that it took to write the new testament books it must be possible
There have been many gods from many different cultures pre-dating Christ by thousands of years but have many similarties: Born, on Dec 25th, of a virgin, a star in the east signaled their birth, had disciples preformed miracles such as changing water into wine (sound familiar?) known by many names the lamb of god, alpha omega, etc, crucified or killed then resurrected after three days Jesus did many of these things years later, you can't really ignore that. If those Gods mentioned came after jesus most would say they copied from his life but would Christians think that jesus copied from these gods considering they came before? I think it must be true

workerbee

Yes, he existed. Affirmed even outside of the Bible:
Catholic Truths: Ecumenical Apologetics, Jesus Evidence (http://catholictruths.com/articles/jesusoutsideevidence.html)

As for dates of events of his live, we don't know any of them. The dates we use are just the date we celebrate the event.

Newer topic, did Jesus ever exist? YES I believe he did.


Noted: As we do accept most history over the years that we have recorded and teach through generations of schooling, I take the bible as truth where it has been under the safe guarded text of the MASSORAH.

And secondly,
Test the Evidence: One must listen to the claim of the document under analysis, and not assume fraud or error unless the author disqualified himself by contradictions or known factual inaccuracies. This is an outline for historical investigation. The point is telling the truth.
The New Testament takes accounts of life and teaching of Jesus recorded by men who by eyewitnesses themselves or by other eye witnesses related the account to actual events.
2 Peter 1:16
1 John 1:3
Luke 3:1
Acts 2:22
This means that the gospels must be regarded as reliable witnesses to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Not only is he accepted in the Christian faith but also Islam. Also no it was not 100 years after all of the writers that wrote the New Testement knew Christ except for Paul, who was alive during Jesus time. So unless people lived to be 150, all of the writings happened sometimes in the years after Christ death.

But no he was alive and the people risked their lives to even write about him, and others risked death just to keep and copy the writings.

So unless people lived to be 150

I don't think that is an issue, since Noah was about 600 years old when he built the ark, which is one of my issues with the stories in the Bible.

One of the ideas taught in the bible was that people did live a lot longer prior to the flood, for several reasons, as Adam was created mankind started in a perfect condition, and his physical condition went down as the impurity of living in a unperfect world started having its effect.
After the flood, the idea that there was again less protection from the effects of the sun which also effected life span. Then after man and sicense develped, man again has begun adding years to their life.

Christians believe that Jesus didn't copy after anyone. If they do, they don't fit the definition of Christian. There are other religions available for those who want to believe whatever they have every right to believe.

Today there are plenty of Chrsitian ( well so called christian) that allows you to believe almost anything you want to)

[ If those Gods mentioned came after jesus most would say they copied from his life but would Christians think that jesus copied from these gods considering they came before? I think it must be true

workerbee[/QUOTE]

Workerbee,

The Bible says that HE and HE alone is God and besides him, there is none else. Man made up pagan Gods, they were never real. Jesus could NOT have copied anyone... HE is an ORIGINAL. It is hard to be the "copycat" when you are the Creator of Heaven and Earth and you always were.

The Gospel of John puts it like this... John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 1:14 - and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

How do I know this to be true? Faith. Pure and simple.

In Hebrews 11 you read that without Faith it is impossible to please God... you must believe that HE is and HE is the rewarder of those that diligently seek him.

I came to Him by Faith.. but now I have a personal relationship with HIM. OH! And fyi It is really difficult to have a personal relationship with nothing. :)

We know that when jesus was killed the books of the new testament were written as early as 70AD, 40 years after his death or as late as 110 AD Is it possible that he was a myth that grew. And never existed like many of the Gods before him or was he just a man that lived then died and these myths made it into the jesus stories, Considering all of the years that it took to write the new testament books it must be possible

Except that the "religion" itself, Christianity, was alive and well immediately after the Spirit descended on Pentecost.

Acts Of Apostles 4 4 But many of them who had heard the word, believed; and the number of the men was made five thousand.

And you will find that there is no myth that is corroborated by four witnesses as are the four Gospels.


There have been many gods from many different cultures pre-dating Christ by thousands of years but have many similarties: Born, on Dec 25th, of a virgin, a star in the east signaled their birth, had disciples preformed miracles such as changing water into wine (sound familiar?) known by many names the lamb of god, alpha omega, etc, crucified or killed then resurrected after three days Jesus did many of these things years later, you can't really ignore that. If those Gods mentioned came after jesus most would say they copied from his life but would Christians think that jesus copied from these gods considering they came before? I think it must be true

The Holy Spirit was preparing man for the coming of the True Lord. While Satan was taking the Holy Spirit's message and trying to create confusion from it.

But only Jesus life can be verified by eyewitnesses. And only His Example is still followed by members of the Organization which He established to teach His Doctrine to the ends of the world.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I expected those answers unfortunately. There have been many Gods, quite a few of them all pre-dating Jesus and they did what he did BEFORE him, how in the world can you ignore that? Blind, truly blind, I mean how thick do you have to be? This is the problem
Christians are so afraid of another viewpoint that they ignore it outright. You can't question Christ. Some of you quote the new testament but that was written up to 80 years after Christ was killed they can be stories. We know that mark is the first written and the next three were taken from his account so it might be true that Jesus existed as a man but it also might be true that he is a myth, completely made up like all of those Gods that he shares attributes with.

workerbee

I expected those answers unfortunately. There have been many Gods, quite a few of them all pre-dating Jesus and they did what he did BEFORE him, how in the world can you ignore that? Blind, truly blind, I mean how thick do you have to be? This is the problem
Christians are so afraid of another viewpoint that they ignore it outright. You can't question Christ. Some of you quote the new testament but that was written up to 80 years after Christ was killed they can be stories. We know that mark is the first written and the next three were taken from his account so it might be true that Jesus existed as a man but it also might be true that he is a myth, completely made up like all of those Gods that he shares attributes with.

workerbee

We don't ignore them at all. I probably know more about Norse, Greek and Roman mythology. And I'm aware that Egyptian and Hindu myths contain many of the same themes. It is the universal aspect of those themes which leads me to the conclusion that God was preparing man for the advent of His Son.

In addition, NONE of those myths are supported by eyewitness testimony. None of them.

The only eyewitness testimony of the miracles of a Man/God come to earth are in the Four Gospels of Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I do believe that Jesus(alaihi salaam) did exist and that he surely will return to earth and establish truth and abolish falsehood.

And no I am not a Christian.

There are just to many writing of the first century about Christ to think that he did not exist.
Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/)

Proving that Jesus is God is a little more difficult. It comes down to trusting the eye witness accounts and the existence of a church that has existed from the time of Jesus. The Apostles and their successors had direct and first hand knowledge of Christ and freely went to their death as a witness to Him. It is hard to think they all did that for a lie.

But where did his body go? Jesus is the only man that died as a human and became a spirit whose body doesn't exist. So where did it go?

But where did his body go? Jesus is the only man that died as a human and became a spirit whose body doesn't exist. So where did it go?

I would answer but this being under Christian topic, and my answer might offend Chrisitians and if you would like to open to more discussion, you might like to post in the religious discussions.

No, I will answer from my view point and even firmbeliever, for the Muslim Jesus did not really die, on the cross, ** edited after talking with firmbeliever*** they teach he merely died previous to the christian teaching of the cross

For the christian, his body went on to heaven where it was transformed.
The story is in the bible about this, so I can understand where a non christian would not know what happened to his body.

There are those of us who believe In Christ Jesus and those who do not. We that believe have given our example of faith based on scriptures and witnesses that document accurate truth to the Word of God, and what's in our heart.
I have seen nothing yet that has offered significance to why I might doubt my belief and faith. There has only been suggestions that attempt to beguile or deceive the truth without witnesses referenced or document referenced.
It is not my intention to somehow take away the free will that God gave each of us, by say you must believe what my free will has found to be true. God promises His truth to those who Knock, and to those who Seek to find. And again that is each person's free will to knock and seek.

The Bible, It's not about people, it's much more about Christ

The Bible is about God from beginning to the end. It's about every conflict God came up against in dealing with satan, past, present, and future. Further more it holds the estabished importance of the Key of David, and how we as His children must believe without doubt that Christ Jesus was worthy to be our Lord and Savior.

1 Corinthians 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

We don't ignore them at all. I probably know more about Norse, Greek and Roman mythology. And I'm aware that Egyptian and Hindu myths contain many of the same themes. It is the universal aspect of those themes which leads me to the conclusion that God was preparing man for the advent of His Son.

In addition, NONE of those myths are supported by eyewitness testimony. None of them.

The only eyewitness testimony of the miracles of a Man/God come to earth are in the Four Gospels of Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

But those might just be stories, that's all, written up to 80 years after his death. That's a long time for myths to creep in, come on. Some of the Sun gods are so similar to jesus that it is shocking
So Jesus might just be made up and those stories might not even be true or there might be some truths to them mixed in with lots of myth. Either way it doesn't look good for the truth of those stories IMO

Woerkerbee

But those might just be stories, that's all, written up to 80 years after his death.

That is what some skeptics theorize. However, they do so against the evidence.

1. Although the Gospel of John was supposedly written around the year 100 AD, that makes it only 70 years after Jesus resurrection. And this is the latest of the Gospels. The rest were written earlier.

2. The Gospel of Matthew was written between the years 40 and 70.
The Gospel of Mark between between 38 and 67.
And the Gospel of Luke was written before the book of Acts which was completed in the year 64.

3. Although the New Testament was not written during Jesus' life on earth, the story of His life was being circulated orally immediately after His Ascension. Example, the episode of the Pentecost. This occurred 40 days after Jesus Ascension and 80 days after His Resurrction:

Acts 2 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you, by miracles, and wonders, and signs, which God did by him, in the midst of you, as you also know: 23 This same being delivered up, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you by the hands of wicked men have crucified and slain. 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that he should be holden by it. 25 For David saith concerning him: I foresaw the Lord before my face: because he is at my right hand, that I may not be moved.

Therefore, all the Gospels were being orally circulated and written during the lifetime of many eyewitnesses to Jesus life and ministry.


That's a long time for myths to creep in, come on. Some of the Sun gods are so similar to jesus that it is shocking

As I said. There are no eyewitness testimonies to these Sun gods lives and ministries. There is only imaginative tales with no real documentation.


So Jesus might just be made up and those stories might not even be true or there might be some truths to them mixed in with lots of myth. Either way it doesn't look good for the truth of those stories IMO

You are welcome to your opinion. But it is an opinion which goes against the evidence.

The people who lived with Jesus and were eyewitnesses, all, with few exceptions, suffered persecutions and died for their beliefs. That is ample evidence of their sincerity.

In addition, Jesus truths make sense of the world. Those other myths rarely make any sense. They are mostly stories of chaos and violence which the gods add to and do not explain or resolve.

So, IMO, the evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ and His Divinity is credible especially in comparison to the myths which proliferated before His Advent.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Well again not sure where 80 years keep coming up, since the writters did not leave to be over 100. And the writers were putting down what they saw.. I will assume the error is that those not schooled in the Bible, see a writing at a date or 80 AD and assume it is 80 years after death but it is not since the @ date of Chrsit Death was 30 AD.

So at best they wrote them 30 to 40 years after Christs death.

Also we have writings of other people during that 40 to 80 year perild after Christ, such as Papias who was a pupil of Apostel John, who wrote the Explanation of the Lords Discourses

Let me see a non belever comes here asking a question that they don't believe is true and when they get the correct Christian answers (they did ask for it from a Chrsitian perspective, then they attack the correct Christian answers, not accept it as what Christians believe.

I do have to ask, was this a bait, since they appear to have already known what a christian believed? Did they merely want to bait good christian answers to merely attack.

If you don't like and don't want Chrsitian answers and don't want the bible quoted, don't ask questoins on the Christian forum

I do have to ask, was this a bait, since they appear to have already known what a christian beleived ?? did they merely want to bait good christian answers to merely attack.


I think his question was meant to be more of not if jesus existed but how do you reconcile the story of jesus with all the other stories that are almost identical?

Yeahh Jesus Does Exist! Accept That He Is The Son Of God And He Died To Save Us... And You Will Be Saved.

Its True.

I think Hank is just as likely to deliver on his promise.
YouTube - Kissing Hank's - The Movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdCA5xAsw8I)
Some NSFW language.

Well again not sure where 80 years keep comming up, since the writters did not leave to be over 100. And the writers were putting down what they saw.. I will assume the error is that those not schooled in the Bible, see a writing at a date or 80 AD and assume it is 80 years after death but it is not since the @ date of Chrsit Death was 30 AD.

So at best they wrote them 30 to 40 years after Christs death.

Also we have writings of other people during that 40 to 80 year perild after Christ, such as Papias who was a pupil of Apostel John, who wrote the Explanation of the Lords Discourses


First off the 80 years comes from this. Mark id the first written the rest come from Mark, In Mark it mentions the destruction of solomon's temple which was 70 AD but there was a Christian writer, ignatius (not sure of the spelling) who would have had access to any of the Gospels and did not mention them leading some to believe that they could have been written later, though no one knows for sure and the writers were not the apostles more than likely.

No this is not bait, I would not do that. It is true I am an Atheist but my question was did jesus ever exist. For me there are only two possibilties. He was either a myth which I am leaning toward or he did if fact exist, but was only a man and those miracles were copied from stories of the gods all predating Jesus. I was hoping for more objective answers but that would never happen with a Christian who believes this bible to be the word of god
They refuse to open there minds I was a Christian for many years but once I started reading from scholars I sarted to see things differently and I never looked back

workerbee

I think Hank is just as likely to deliver on his promise.
YouTube - Kissing Hank's - The Movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdCA5xAsw8I)
Some NSFW language.Haha, that was good. I think the analogy/parody may get lost on some.

First off the 80 years comes from this. Mark id the first written the rest come from Mark, In Mark it mentions the destruction of solomon's temple which was 70 AD but there was a Christian writer, ignatius (not sure of the spelling) who would have had access to any of the Gospels and did not mention them leading some to believe that they could have been written later, though no one knows for sure and the writers were not the apostles more than likely.

None of that makes sense. Maybe you could rewrite it. The only thing I could understand was Ignatius' name. And since St. Ignatius was taught by the Apostles and frequently spoke of the Gospels, I have no idea where anyone could possibly get the impression he didn't know of them.

St. Ignatius said:
... When I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is in the place of all that is ancient: His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity; by which I desire, through your prayers, to be justified... But the Gospel possesses something transcendent [above the former dispensation], viz. the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, His passion and resurrection. For the beloved prophets announced Him, but the Gospel is the perfection of immortality. All these things are good together, if you believe in love...
CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Philadelphians (St. Ignatius) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0108.htm)


No this is not bait, I would not do that.

So far it looks like bait.


It is true I am an Atheist but my question was did jesus ever exist.

And the answer has been "yes."


For me there are only two possibilties. He was either a myth which I am leaning toward or he did if fact exist, but was only a man and those miracles were copied from stories of the gods all predating Jesus. I was hoping for more objective answers but that would never happen with a Christian who believes this bible to be the word of god
They refuse to open there minds

We see it the other way. We believe you won't open your mind to understand even the meaning of evidence.

Tell me, since when is eyewitness testimony not considered evidence?


I was a Christian for many years but once I started reading from scholars I sarted to see things differently and I never looked back

You were a Christian. And you knew the answer to the question you asked. So it was bait. Gotcha!


workerbee

De Maria

Workerbee, if you had ever been in attendance at a genuine Pentecostal meeting where the Holy Ghost was evidently there, you would never have asked your question. Such meetings are rare these days, but can be found. You should examine all evidence before coming to any conclusion.

First off the 80 years comes from this. mark id the first written the rest come from Mark, In Mark it mentions the destruction of solomon's temple which was 70 AD but there was a Christian writer, ignatius (not sure of the spelling) who would have had access to any of the Gospels and did not mention them leading some to believe that they could have been written later, though no one knows for sure and the writers were not the apostles more than likely.

No this is not bait, i would not do that. It is true i am an Atheist but my question was did jesus ever exist. For me there are only two possibilties. He was either a myth which i am leaning toward or he did if fact exist, but was only a man and those miracles were copied from stories of the gods all predating Jesus. I was hoping for more objective answers but that would never happen with a Christian who believes this bible to be the word of god
they refuse to open there minds I was a Christian for many years but once i started reading from scholars i sarted to see things differently and i never looked back

workerbee

I am sorry you are incorrect, Mark is believed to have been written from 60 to 70 AD, which would have been 30 to 40 years after Christ death. We have to remember that Christ Death was @ 30 AD not 0 AD.
It is believed Mark was with Peter in Rome whne 1 Peter was written and Marks writing is also believed to have been written in Rome.

Marks writings and his help in writing for Peter is documented by Papias who was a public of the Apostle John

Workerbee, if you had ever been in attendance at a genuine Pentecostal meeting where the Holy Ghost was evidently there, you would never have asked your question. Such meetings are rare these days, but can be found. You should examine all evidence before coming to any conclusion.

Yes, once you see a few people actually cured, once you feel the power of the Word of God in action, there is no doubt in anyone's mind.

I am sorry you are incorrect, Mark is beleived to have been written from 60 to 70 AD, which would have been 30 to 40 years after Christ death. We have to remember that Christ Death was @ 30 AD not 0 AD.
It is beleived Mark was with Peter in Rome whne 1 Peter was written and Marks writting is also beleived to hvae been written in Rome.

Marks writings and his help in writing for Peter is documented by Papias who was a public of the Apostle John

Yes, it is nice to see some facts being presented. There can be no doubt that there were real eye witnesses to the life of Christ.

Here is a good article that sums up why Jesus doesn't exist.
Did Jesus exist? (http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm)

Has anyone ever seen or talked to him and if ye av prove it and then I'm sure everyone will believe then

Here is a good article that sums up why Jesus doesn't exist.
Did Jesus exist? (http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm)

That article is easily debunked by the very fact that it doesn't recognize the difference between multiple eyewitness testimony which substantiates each other and hearsay.

Hearsay is evidence. But it is almost the weakest type. That is why it is usually inadmissible in court except in certain cases. Hearsy means the witness claims to have heard someone say something pertinent to the case. No substantiation. Nothing except what the one witness says.

A single eyewitness is very strong evidence. The witness declares the sequence of events and can usually provide details which will match the circumstances.

But four eye witnesses who can substantially corroborate each other and which each have their own perspective on the event or case. That is very strong evidence.

So, the article you referenced is essentially "bunk".

Sincerely,

De Maria

So bigfoot, aliens, lockness monster, champ, lizardmen and jersey devil all exist because there is more eye witness testimony for those than for Jesus.

You missed major points in the article that explained why those eye witness accounts aren't good ones. Eye witness accounts have to have other evidence in support of them or they are bunk.

Let me see the men who lived and traveled with Jesus for several years, the trouble is you can say the same on any early person, since they are not here today, those that don't want to accept it as testomony would not accept Jesus if he came down in glory and called them.

Actually no you can't. The problem with Jesus is there are no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts and all the writings about him were done 30 to 40 years after his death during a time when most men only lived into there 30s.

Then there are the multiple stories that Jesus's live seemed to be plagiarized of. For instance the story of Horus.
Horus and the Father as one
Horus, the Father seen in the Son
Horus, light of the world, represented by the symbolical eye, the sign of salvation.
Horus served the way, the truth, the life by name and in person
Horus baptized with water by Anup (Jesus baptized with water by John)
Horus the Good Shepherd
Horus as the Lamb (Jesus as the Lamb)
Horus as the Lion (Jesus as the Lion)
Horus identified with the Tat Cross (Jesus with the cross)
The trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, Ra the Holy Spirit
Horus the avenger (Jesus who brings the sword)
Horus the afflicted one
Horus as life eternal
Twelve followers of Horus as Har-Khutti (Jesus' 12 disciples)

Mark mentions the destruction of Solomon's temple, which I believe is 70 AD some of this is from memory (didn't have time to look itup) but even if it was a bit sooner those stories
Written 30 to 40 years later so what That is a long time. Other gods that turned water into wine or born of a virgin, etc, etc, And there were many were written into those gospels obviously

Galvaston1 , No I have never been to pentecostal(nutjobs) chruch I was at a faith healer ( which did not work I won't get into here) and all of the people annoying ashell That is not me I need PROOF you don't obviously

DeMaria, eyewitness testimony means nothing because we don't know if they saw anything they just might say they were eyewitnesses, if I wrote something that I wanted someone to believe then I would say " believe me I saw this event with my own two eyes, the loch ness monster was here a minute ago, No seriously I saw it with my own two eyes
After 2000 years doesn't prove much I could go into detail but I would be getting off subject which usually happens when discussing religion.

This is getting no where fast

workerbee

Your not going to get anywhere with the people that post on this board. Since religion is based on faith not fact (a fact that even most believers agree with) it doesn't matter if Jesus existed or not because for them no evidence is going to put doubt in their minds. The only thing we can do is push for more general education. Education is by far our best weapon against fanaticals.

So bigfoot, aliens, lockness monster, champ, lizardmen and jersey devil all exist because there is more eye witness testimony for those than for Jesus.

Wrong on both counts.

1. The eyewitness testimony of these creatures has not been proven beyond doubt. The claims are shadowy and the statements sketchy. The quality of the testimony is nowhere near the quality of the testimony in support of Jesus' existence.

2. And although the testimony for these creatures is not of great quality, that still does not disprove their existence.

Also, you are again creating straw men, I didn't say that these creatures existed.


You missed major points in the article that explained why those eye witness accounts aren't good ones.

You are here, make the arguments yourself. I could also post all kinds of articles for you to read to refute everything you say. But I'm polite enough to produce my arguments here.

Unless of course you don't really have any arguments.


Eye witness accounts have to have other evidence in support of them or they are bunk.

Not when you have multiple credible eyewitnesses of good moral character. And in regards to the Gospels, there is a great deal of evidence to support their testimonies besides their testimonies.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Actually no you can't. The problem with Jesus is there are no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts and all the writings about him were done 30 to 40 years after his death during a time when most men only lived into there 30s.

Many artifacts remain but they are discounted by skeptics. The Shroud of Turin, the Headpiece, His birthplace, His tomb, the nails and the crown of thorns and many other artifacts.

Then there is the Church He established and the teaching He taught, the communities which sprang up in response to His teachings.

So, there's quite a bit, you just don't believe it.


Then there are the multiple stories that Jesus's live seemed to be plagiarized of.

You seem to be quite a believer in this Horus. And you claim to be a reasonable person who believes things only when they are proven. Please provide details which we can confirm. When was this story first written and on which document? If I remember correctly, the stories of Horus which correspond with Jesus actually date after the advent of Jesus. None of those things which can be compared to Jesus actually exist in the original literature.:

That's quite a list, but let's make it simple to start: A good number -- at least half -- are so far as I have seen bogus. There has not been a shred of evidence for many of these in any book of Egyptian religion I have thus far consulted. So as Clara Peller used to say, Where's the beef? Where's the original Egyptian lit that backs this up? Christ-Mythers: we do not want to hear from Gerald Massey or Godfrey Higgins; we want the original citation from Egyptian records. If I don't hear from any of you within a year (and I know that they check in on this site, because I hear from them), I'll assume no response is possible and go back to more copycat projects. In some cases below we will draw upon Glenn Miller's copycat article where he has done some previous work.
Osiris. Horus. Jesus. Not Triplets! (http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html)

So, unless you can provide the original details, the following remains unproven:

For instance the story of Horus.
Horus and the Father as one
Horus, the Father seen in the Son
Horus, light of the world, represented by the symbolical eye, the sign of salvation.
Horus served the way, the truth, the life by name and in person
Horus baptized with water by Anup (Jesus baptized with water by John)
Horus the Good Shepherd
Horus as the Lamb (Jesus as the Lamb)
Horus as the Lion (Jesus as the Lion)
Horus identified with the Tat Cross (Jesus with the cross)
The trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, Ra the Holy Spirit
Horus the avenger (Jesus who brings the sword)
Horus the afflicted one
Horus as life eternal
Twelve followers of Horus as Har-Khutti (Jesus' 12 disciples)

None of that is true. Horus is simply the half falcon half human god of Egypt. No corollaries with Jesus.

Sincerely,

De Maria

firmbeliever agrees: I believe the trinity and demi god status of Jesus(alaihi salaam)maybe borrowed concepts from mythology since his ascension to Heaven!
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Are you throwing down the gauntlet my friend? Your belief doesn't qualify as evidence unless you can prove it.

Now if we consider that Mohammed never provided anything but hearsay to support his contention that an Angel had appeared to him. In addition, we also find that Mohammed actually did borrow a great deal of mythology from the neighboring tribes for his beliefs. Example, God's she camel.

In fact, he provided less than hearsay. He never proved that he simply didn't concoct imaginative tales which he later passed on as truths.

Lets compare that to the fact that Jesus has four eyewitnesses of good moral character who documented what He did, said and how He lived for a period of three years.

The comparison is one sided. Mohammed is the source of all the stories in the Quran. No one else saw the Angel or heard the Angel's voice. And Mohammed never proved his mission from God by providing miracles to support his claims.

If Mohammed would present his claims, even in Islamic court today, he would be summarily thrown out.

So, anytime you want to enter a friendly debate concerning the quality of evidence for Islam vs Christianity, I am ready and waiting. And I am certain, so are many of my Christian confreres.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Why do you have to debate evryone to death? Why not live and let live? Let people have their own beliefs.

Why do you have to debate evryone to death? Why not live and let live? Let people have their own beliefs.

That question from you? I think the pot has just called the kettle black.

Sincerely,

De Maria

How about you answer it.

I agree with De Maria on that last post. I frequent religious disscussions and it seems there are a few people that constantly turn up trying to dispel God and comment on how sensitive beleivers are when in truth they operate exactly the same.

Again with this one!! Workerbee - It's almost as if your original question contains many points and "facts" that came from a certain movie that was discussed on this site not so long ago , hmmmmmm?? What you may wish to know is that another movie was in response to the one you seem to be pawning off without mentioning, that proved that what you are saying about birthdates and other God's is incorrect. Little less typing and a little more watching maybe in order for you. Also, seems to me you start many a thread like this, also seems you have no real interest in learning anything but rather just trying to get some type of point across, or maybe your bored.

As for a newer basher that refers to us simple minded belivers as "these people". Your article is very compelling indeed, many a time I was shocked and had never seen such well written arguments against Jesus towhich of course you caould never find a rebuttal in all the world. However, I did find the location interesting and actually comical, please allow me:

Did Jesus exist? (http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm)

I can post all kinds of articles from all kinds of Jesus loving web-sites just as you can (and have) from your well-trusted sites.

Oh these non-beleiving people:)

Unfortunetly, as Karma pointed out earlier, the humor of that last line may be lost on some:(

Sorry the link did not come up and thus the post is not as effective. The name of the website is nobeleifs. Something. Point still stands.

How about you answer it.

Sure. When I first came on this board, it was to simply answer Christian questions for people seeking to know about Christ. I debate on many boards and I thought this would be a good change of pace. Do you remember the first words you addressed to me?


Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Sorry deMaria, you are wrong on many counts.

You didn't know what you got into:

This was my response:

Wow! I diddn't know this was a debate forum, but that is wonderful!


So, NK, I can thank you for showing me that I can do what I love to do on this board.

Anyway, I note that you had no qualms about debating before, so why are you now questioning me in accusatory tone (i.e. debate evryone to death?)

Sincerely,

De Maria

HEY!! Here is a thought...

If everyone believed exactly the same way in exactly the same thing and there was no room for doubt or question wouldn't that be considered a cult?

AND FURTHERMORE>>> HOW EXTREMELY BORING WOULD THAT BE!!

Who cares who is wrong or right! Who cares which way is better! Someone asked a question and a few people answered what they thought the answer is, now those people are being attacked for thinking that way.

As far as I am concerned we are here and have brains and hearts to feel and think however the hell we want to think or feel. If I want to worship cookie monster then I can!! And you shouldn't look down upon me for that just because you don't. Because you know what!! When yours or my final hour comes you will know what happens when you die, and I will know what happens when I die. And if it turns out that I don't get to go to chocolate chip hill and eat macadamia nut cookies for eternity BIG FREAKIN DEAL!! Because you won't be there either!!

K I'm done. Have fun everyone!! This site is such an awesome stress reliever for me!! :)

So it's Needkarma is responsible for the actions of DeMaria interesting and here I thought we we're all responsible for our own actions.

BMI,

I didn't hide where that article came from it was simply a well written article. I can post this one if you like from religioustolerance org.
Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm)
The information is basically the same.

Again though I contend that it doesn't matter because regardless of how concrete the evidence is against Jesus being a real person. The answer will be that those are works of the devil and there for don't count. I can't debate that. When you fill in gaps with super natural beings all evidence become worthless.

And if all of you agreed that your religion is faith and kept it to yourselves I really wouldn't care what you said.

So it's Needkarma is responsible for the actions of DeMaria interesting and here I thought we we're all responsible for our own actions.

There you go again twisting my words.

I never accused NK of being responsible for what I say. However NK did open my eyes to the fact that debate is permitted on this forum.


BMI,

I didn't hide where that article came from it was simply a well written article. I can post this one if you like from religioustolerance org.
Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm)
The information is basically the same.

Again though I contend that it doesn't matter because regardless of how concrete the evidence is against Jesus being a real person. The answer will be that those are works of the devil and there for don't count. I can't debate that. When you fill in gaps with super natural beings all evidence become worthless.



As I said, all those supposed parallels date after the advent of Jesus. Therefore, it is Horus' myth writers who plagiarized the Gospels.


And if all of you agreed that your religion is faith and kept it to yourselves I really wouldn't care what you said.


And if all of you atheists agreed that your denial of religion is just your unfounded opinion and preference, I wouldn't care what you said either. But as long as you keep insisting that your opinions are facts, I'll keep proving you wrong.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I didn't accuse you of hiding it, rather I was pointing out where you got it from.

As for what you perceive we can not explain about Jesus being divine or that "concrete evidence" (which I suppose you feel you have included by posting the article) will be overlooked by beleivers is false and inaccurate to say the least.

I have seen many a person here claim science and the "proof" it provides against the existence of God, it makes me laugh and wonder who is guilty of believing fairytales more, the beleiver or the non.

What evidence do you have that God does NOT EXIST!! Any of you non-beleivers may feel free to answer the question. Isn't it science that delivers the Big Bang Theory yet cannot explain what happened at T=0. I guess that's as far as your argument can take you, beleivers have much more than that to provide us with belief. Intelligent deseign (which is one of the most compelling reasons and insights into the whole matter in which no one proponent has ever been able to rebuke otherthan getting caught up with semantics), aruguments from scrpture, arguments from beauty, all (well most) the great thinkers provided answers from FEELING and LOGIC that science has remained silent about. Sheesh, man and science, science hasnot even discovered the myseteries of Planet Earth let alone whether it can test for a supreme being that evidently does not wish to be found in a physical sense.

Ahhh, yet you speak of proof and concrete evidence, please good sir!!

Go to the following link and email Pastor Vugteveen. That is exactly what last Sunday was all about. He quoted sources other than the Bible. I hope it eases your mind. The River Church - Allegan, Michigan (http://www.theriverinallegan.org)

We both know that it is almost impossible to disprove a negatave. Especially a negative such as god because he exists between the gaps of our existing knowledge and no matter how small those gaps get they will always be large enough for god to fit within them.

I don't have any evidence against aliens either but I'm still pretty certain that they aren't abducting people in trailer parks. I admit I could be wrong but until more evidence comes out I'm still going to say it's not happening.

By the way DeMaria the stories of Horus pre-date the story of Jesus as do the stories of Hercules and Dionysus.

We both know that it is almost impossible to disprove a negatave.

You have just admitted that you can't prove your belief.


Especially a negative such as god

God is not a negative. Your belief that God does not exist is a negative.

You might want to study logic and English syntax.


because he exists between the gaps of our existing knowledge

That is your characterization and in a round about way your capitulation to the fact that God does exist.


and no matter how small those gaps get they will always be large enough for god to fit within them.

Again, in a round about way, you have understood God. If you go to the highest heights, He is there. If you go to the greatest depths, He is there also.


I don't have any evidence against aliens either but I'm still pretty certain that they aren't abducting people in trailer parks.

As for me, I'm an agnostic about the existence of aliens. I don't claim to know that the people who claim to have seen aliens are lying or are in error or are in fact accurate. When they provide evidence that is convincing to me, I'll believe. Or when someone provides evidence which convinces me that aliens do not exist, I'll believe them.

The evidence for God's existence has been shown me and convinced me.


I admit I could be wrong but until more evidence comes out I'm still going to say it's not happening.

That's where you and I differ. If I know something is true, then I say it is. If I don't know whether it is true, I don't go around saying that it isn't.

As you have admitted above, even though you can't prove and don't know whether aliens exist, you will continue to claim they don't.

Am I the only one to whom that attitude sounds strange and illogical?


By the way DeMaria the stories of Horus pre-date the story of Jesus as do the stories of Hercules and Dionysus.

Not the elements of the Horus stories which seem to parallel the life of Jesus.

And the Hercules and Dionysus myths resemble Jesus' life only on the surface. When you delve into the details, they are completely different.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Most of you are attempting to refute the assertions of workerbee intellectually and that won't work UNLESS (she ?) is willing to seriously study how the books in the Bible came to be and study the prophecies written years before their literal fulfillment. I doubt that is going to happen. Relationship with Jesus can be experienced. I have, as have billions of people since His time and currently.

The man with the experience is never at the mercy of the man with the argument.

You have just admitted that you can't prove your belief.


This has been said before and so what. I can't disprove a lot of things doesn't make them real.

As for me, I'm an agnostic about the existence of aliens. I don't claim to know that the people who claim to have seen aliens are lying or are in error or are in fact accurate. When they provide evidence that is convincing to me, I'll believe. Or when someone provides evidence which convinces me that aliens do not exist, I'll believe them.

The evidence for God's existence has been shown me and convinced me.

That's where you and I differ. If I know something is true, then I say it is. If I don't know whether it is true, I don't go around saying that it isn't.

As you have admitted above, even though you can't prove and don't know whether aliens exist, you will continue to claim they don't.

Am I the only one to whom that attitude sounds strange and illogical?


Apparently. If it was just a flat question of is there a possibility that god of some sort exists. Then I would tell you honestly I can't know for certain. Just because you can't prove something doesn't exist doesn't means you should live your life like it exists. You haven't tried to alien proof your room have you? You don't have yourself cat scanned on a regular basis to search for alien devices do you? You have lobbied the government to protect us from aliens have you? If you haven't done those thing you are living your life as atheistic towards aliens.

We both know that it is almost impossible to disprove a negatave. Especially a negative such as god because he exists between the gaps of our existing knowledge and no matter how small those gaps get they will always be large enough for god to fit within them.

I don't have any evidence against aliens either but I'm still pretty certain that they aren't abducting people in trailer parks. I admit I could be wrong but until more evidence comes out I'm still going to say it's not happening.

By the way DeMaria the stories of Horus pre-date the story of Jesus as do the stories of Hercules and Dionysus.


FAITH is the most important, but as science discovers more and mopre about the complexity of life and even the individual cell, the "gaps" are actually increasing.

Explain life from non-life?

Explain the origin of any organism's genome?

Explain why more and more medical diseases are due to mutations, one of the purported mechanism of evolution.

But God is bigger than science, He created everything we observe, the laws of science that we observe.


Access : : Nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v448/n7151/full/448240a.html)


I'm not as smart as a physicist but see what they believe in :D Talk about proving a negative!

This has been said before and so what. I can't disprove a lot of things doesn't make them real.

Doesn't make them not real either. Yet as you admitted, you will argue that it does make them "not real".

But you probably don't understand what you admitted about your behavior. You admitted that you don't care about the evidence. It doesn't matter that you can't prove something is true, you will claim it is false anyway.

To me that sounds unethical.


Apparently. If it was just a flat question of is there a possibility that god of some sort exists. Then I would tell you honestly I can't know for certain.

But you just admitted that you will argue against it rather than admit that you don't know. And in fact, that admission is consistent with the way you've behaved on this forum. You claim not to know if God exists, but you argue that you know He doesn't exist.


Just because you can't prove something doesn't exist doesn't means you should live your life like it exists.

That depends on the importance of that something. If three or four of my neighbors say they've seen Big Foot in my backyard. And if I trust these neighbors and consider them of good moral character not prone to practical jokes, I think I would take extra precautions when I walk in my backyard even if I'm not certain that Big Foot exists.


You haven't tried to alien proof your room have you? You don't have yourself cat scanned on a regular basis to search for alien devices do you? You have lobbied the government to protect us from aliens have you? If you haven't done those thing you are living your life as atheistic towards aliens.

No one whom I trust has claimed to see aliens anywhere near my neighborhood. But if the evidence for hostile aliens is ever proved to my satisfaction, or if honest friends of mine ever tell me they've seen hostile aliens in our neighborhood, I'll be the first in line for each one of those.

Sincerely,

De Maria

This wasn't a question in the first place, but an atheistic argument presented in the Christian thread. I object!

Foolishness!!

What has been disproved about the shroud of Turin?? Has anyone claimed it to be fake or real for that matter?? Please do not say things that are simply not researched or true, you may well indeed influence someone here based on falseness (though I highly doubt that).

Consider that an argument against the shroud being false is that an artist created it through a procedure that did not exist at the time, quite advanced for even themore modern age, if that's what you hanging you hat on than really this is going nowhere.

Also, you 50 some gods that all share the same story as Jesus is ridiculous, it has already been dispelled. It may interest you to know that the producer himself, when confronted with all the inaccuracies of the movie said it was not meant to be taken as fact. Wow, how easily can one be swayed?

Honestly, to those that research such nonsense and then state with all authority they "know the truth", open a window and look out of it for a couple of hours. I truly believe you'll have a better chance of finding your answers doing that than typing here, Sheesh!

That should read an argument against the shroud being real. Sorry.

Bmi, you are right about that certain movie as you call it. Since then I have read lots about that, so I think I have a vaild question. Recap There are several gods, like 50 or so that had the same attributes as Jesus, some almost exactly, in some cases thousands of years before Christ,

No. That is false. Some are similar but none exact and especially for Horus, the more similar characteristics came into being after the advent of Jesus Christ. It is as though writers of the Horus myth plagiarized from the Gospels.


then there was along time before the gospels were written, and early Christian writers knew of these Gods, So it is logical to assume that these stories were put into the Jesus myth. I don't know for sure but as on scholar said" How thick do you have to be"

The scholar was right. How thick do you have to be to realize that you need to examine the evidence instead of believing every two bit crank that makes an unsubstantiated claim.

Now, as I asked someone michaelb before you, provide the evidence. Provide a link to an authentic ancient manuscript or artifact which shows that Horus was anymore than a half falcon half human myth.

As the scholar said, "put up or shut up."


DeMaria, those artifacts that you believe in like the shroud of Turin have been disproved you do need to hold on to silly beliefs don't you?

Not so. The test which had apparently disproved it was later proven to be flawed.


By the way the another movie to see "the God that wasn't there"

Why? There's no sense in watching nonsense, unless its humorous or something. And if that's the case, I highly doubt that I'll appreciate this kind of humor, based on the title.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Post closed, never a real question to start, atheist merely wanting to attack christians on chrsitian board