A friend of mine is afraid she can be convicted and sentenced to hell for her thoughts.

She's a very devout Christian. Super nice person. She goes to church every Sunday and sometimes even in the middle of the week. She also prays to God every morning and night.

The other day, she mentioned something about going to hell. I laughed, because she's the most loyal Christian I know. But she wasn't kidding. She told me she has impure thoughts. She's married, but thinks about relationships with other men. She sometimes wishes bad things on people. Sometimes she's jealous of her sister and wishes something bad would happen to her. Nothing real bad, but like lose her job or something. She would secretly enjoy that. Ditto for some of her coworkers.

My friend also claims she has a form of mental Tourette's syndrome, where she'll just impulsively think something like, "I hate God". She doesn't know why this happens, she doesn't hate God, but she can't stop herself from thinking that and much worse, although she wouldn't tell me what worse things she thought.

Of course, anyone who knows me knows I don't believe in any of this. But she seems genuinely distraught over this and I told her I knew of an online forum where people seem to be knowledgeable about Christianity and sincere about helping people. So I promised I would ask this question for her...

Can you be convicted of thought crimes? My own answer would be most certainly not, but what do I know? It would surpass all the things I already think are barbaric about the bible. It seems appalling to think that your innermost thoughts are under supreme surveillance 24/7. What a way to have to live!

So I'm guessing/hoping you'll say she's OK. Again, she's one of the nicest sweetest people I know. She has to be for me to be posting a question on here for her. Even though I don't believe in any of this, I hate to see her so upset and worried about this. I'll print out some of your answers and show them to her. Thanks.

Tell her to read the Bible because it says God forgives when you ask him to.
Going to church and all is good but that does not get you to heaven.
She needs to learn to not beat herself up because God isn't as harsh on her as she is on herself.
God wants you to love him with a pure love. Being obsessed that you are not good enough is not good at all.

Tell her to read the Bible because it says God forgives when you ask him to.
Going to church and all is good but that does not get you to heaven.
She needs to learn to not beat herself up because God isn't as harsh on her as she is on herself.
God wants you to love him with a pure love. Being obsessed that you are not good enough is not good at all.

Thanks Nohelp. Would you know of any particular passage that might comfort her? Anywhere where it specifically says God forgives you when you ask Him to? I'm sure she must read the bible, but maybe she's not reading the right parts. But I don't know that. Maybe she doesn't read the bible much.

This is a very sad example of how people can be seriously damaged mentally by certain teachings of religion.

The poor girl has not learned a socially acceptable way to express anger and sexual passion because her religion has probably taught her that anger and sex is not acceptable for a "good girl", so she has repressed to the point where she is literally going mad.

There are ways to express anger *when it happens* so that it doesn't fester under the surface causing all kinds of damage. All people have to have a backbone... so they can say "You really make me mad" when someone angers them!

Now... people cannot control what they think... thoughts come and go, float in and out of the conscious mind... what one needs to know is *not* to hang onto thoughts and go about one's business.

This girl must go to a good psychiatrist/therapist immediately. She is confused and self-destructive, and she needs help reversing the road she is heading down.

Hello lob:

Fortunately, we are NOT our thoughts. If we were, they'da never let me out of the joint - and they'd put everybody else in.

excon

Maybe this will help your friend. It's the Reformer Martin Luther's explanation of his phrase, in Christ we are "simul iustus et peccator"--in Christ we are at the same time saint and sinner. This is from Luther's Preface to his Lectures on Romans (notice what a tangled web we weave for ourselves... ):

"Since the saints are always conscious of their sin, and seek righteousness from God in accordance with his mercy, they are always reckoned as righteous by God (semper quoque iusti a deo reputantur). Thus in their own eyes, and as a matter of fact, they are unrighteous. But God reckons them as righteous on account of their confession of their sin. In fact, they are sinners; however, they are righteous by the reckoning of a merciful God (Re vera peccatores, sed reputatione miserentis Dei iusti). Without knowing it, they are righteous; knowing it, they are unrighteous. They are sinners in fact, but righteous in hope (peccatores in re, iusti autem in spe)...

It is like the case of a man who is ill, who trusts the doctor who promises him a certain recovery and in the meantime obeys the doctor's instructions, abstaining from what has been forbidden to him, in the hope of the promised recovery (in spe promissae sanitatis), so that he does not do anything to hinder this promised recovery…Now this man who is ill, is he healthy? The fact is that he is a man who is both ill and healthy at the same time (immo aegrotus simul et sanus). As a matter of fact, he is ill; but he is healthy on account of the certain promise of the doctor, who he trusts and who reckons him as healthy already, because he is sure that he will cure him. Indeed he has already begun to cure him, and no longer regards him as having a terminal illness. In the same way, our Samaritan, Christ, has brought this ill man to the inn to be cared for, and has begun to cure him, having promised him the most certain cure leading to eternal life.

Now is this man perfectly righteous? No. But he is at one and the same time a sinner and a righteous person (simul iustus et peccator). He is a sinner in fact, but a righteous person by the sure reckoning and promise of God that he will continue to deliver him from sin until he has completely cured him. And so he is totally healthy in hope, but a sinner in fact (sanus perfecte est in spe, in re autem peccator). He has the beginning of righteousness, and so always continues more and more to seek it, while realizing that he is always unrighteous.

Well if that is true, no one will get in heaven except Jesus and that seems a bit moot.

Maybe this will help your friend. It's the Reformer Martin Luther's explanation of his phrase, in Christ we are "simul iustus et peccator"--in Christ we are at the same time saint and sinner. This is from Luther's Preface to his Lectures on Romans (notice what a tangled web we weave for ourselves....):

"Since the saints are always conscious of their sin, and seek righteousness from God in accordance with his mercy, they are always reckoned as righteous by God (semper quoque iusti a deo reputantur). Thus in their own eyes, and as a matter of fact, they are unrighteous. But God reckons them as righteous on account of their confession of their sin. In fact, they are sinners; however, they are righteous by the reckoning of a merciful God (Re vera peccatores, sed reputatione miserentis Dei iusti). Without knowing it, they are righteous; knowing it, they are unrighteous. They are sinners in fact, but righteous in hope (peccatores in re, iusti autem in spe)....

It is like the case of a man who is ill, who trusts the doctor who promises him a certain recovery and in the meantime obeys the doctor’s instructions, abstaining from what has been forbidden to him, in the hope of the promised recovery (in spe promissae sanitatis), so that he does not do anything to hinder this promised recovery…Now this man who is ill, is he healthy? The fact is that he is a man who is both ill and healthy at the same time (immo aegrotus simul et sanus). As a matter of fact, he is ill; but he is healthy on account of the certain promise of the doctor, who he trusts and who reckons him as healthy already, because he is sure that he will cure him. Indeed he has already begun to cure him, and no longer regards him as having a terminal illness. In the same way, our Samaritan, Christ, has brought this ill man to the inn to be cared for, and has begun to cure him, having promised him the most certain cure leading to eternal life.

Now is this man perfectly righteous? No. But he is at one and the same time a sinner and a righteous person (simul iustus et peccator). He is a sinner in fact, but a righteous person by the sure reckoning and promise of God that he will continue to deliver him from sin until he has completely cured him. And so he is totally healthy in hope, but a sinner in fact (sanus perfecte est in spe, in re autem peccator). He has the beginning of righteousness, and so always continues more and more to seek it, while realizing that he is always unrighteous.

I don't buy it because of what I perceive to be glaring inconsistencies in logic, but I think my friend will find great comfort in this. She does go to confession every week and hopefully will identify with this. So far, this is the post I think will help her the most. Thanks!

lobrobster writes: "Can you be convicted of thought crimes? My own answer would be most certainly not, but what do I know? It would surpass all the things I already think are barbaric about the bible. It seems appalling to think that your innermost thoughts are under supreme surveillance 24/7. What a way to have to live!"
I don't see the question as being whether one can be convicted of thought crimes. There is an old saying, that misery loves company. Your friend trusts you with her innermost thoughts and is apparently ashamed or surprised by them. I believe that is why Christians recognize and accept the blessing of confession: "Confession is the treatment God prescribes when we reject his place in our life, or when we violate his instructions for behaviors or attitudes in living." Check: Confession, a key to Christian growth (http://www.nlnc.org/stuff/confession.html) And, : the role of confession of sin - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+role+of+confession+of+sin)

"As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."
Psalm 103:12

"Come now and let us reason together," says the Lord,
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow."
Isaiah 1:18

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
1 John 1:9

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new."
2 Corinthians 5:17

"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
Hebrews 10:17

"The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him."
Daniel 9:9

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
Colossians 1:13-14

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus ..."
Romans 8:1

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and once they are forgiven, they are all forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43). However, when we stumble, we are called to confess our sins - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Yes, Christians do sin (1 John 1:8) - but the Christian life is not to be identified by a life of sin. Believers are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). We have the Holy Spirit in us producing good fruit (Galatians 5:22-23). A Christian life should be a changed life. A person who claims to be a believer yet continually lives a life that says otherwise should question the genuineness of his faith. Christians are forgiven no matter how many times they sin, but at the same time, Christians should live a progressively more holy life as they grow closer to Christ.

Christians continue to sin after they are saved - we will not be free from sin until we die or Jesus comes back. However, becoming a Christian results in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). A person will go from producing the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) to producing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). This change does not happen instantly, but it does happen over time. Paul tells us, "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11).

Actually it sounds like a compulsion disorder but in this case it has taken a form within religion, People can be afraid of going outside, of touching a door knob, of any of a million things, in their case, they are afraid of their toughts.

Obviously they do not know enouigh about Christianity or their denomination belief, **unless they are in one of the few that require a sinless life, that I don't know about**

But the very first thing we learn is that yes of course our thoughts are sin, as our actions, but we also learn that we all sin every day, all of us, even the best Christain alive sins a lot every day.

And we learn that Christ died for those sins and we are forgiven for them, so sin no longer dooms a Chrsitian to hell, in fact if we look, it is the not accepting Christ our physcial choice that decides if we are saved or not saved.

A few religions have came up with mortal sins that have to be confessed to God, but these are far from thoughts, so even in those denominations their thoughts would not doom them to hell.

So I will agree, they either need to
1. learn more about Christian faith, since they appear to have forgotten what being saved is about.

2. get professional help, since they seem to have a disorder that has them obsessed over this.

Actually it sounds like a compulsion disorder but in this case it has taken a form within religion, People can be afraid of going outside, of touching a door knob, of any of a million things, in thier case, they are afraid of thier toughts.

Obviously they do not know enouigh about Christianity or thier denomination beleif, **unless they are in one of the few that require a sinless life, that I don't know about**

But the very first thing we learn is that yes of course our thoughts are sin, as our actions, but we also learn that we all sin every day, all of us, even the best Christain alive sins alot every day.

And we learn that Christ died for those sins and we are forgiven for them, so sin no longer dooms a Chrsitian to hell, in fact if we look, it is the not accepting Christ our physcial choice that decides if we are saved or not saved.

A few religions have came up with mortal sins that have to be confessed to God, but these are far from thoughts, so even in those denominations thier thoughts would not doom them to hell.

So I will agree, they either need to
1. learn more about Christian faith, since they appear to have forgotten what being saved is about.

2. get professional help, since they seem to have a disorder that has them obsessed over this.

I'll also print this post out for her, since your profile states you have actual experience in the ministry. Hopefully, she'll take comfort that you seem to be saying as long as she has asked forgiveness and accepts Jesus as her Savior, these thoughts she suffers with are OK. Maybe even a sign of temptation from the devil?

A question I would have is, couldn't not accepting Jesus also be a thought crime? I've never understood why it is that all other sins except that one can be forgiven. Especially since that seems to be the easiest to sin to commit. At least many of the stories about Jesus are the hardest thing to for me to believe about Christianity (well, maybe not 'the' hardest, but certainly among the many others).

Maybe even a sign of temptation from the devil?
Or maybe because she is human, like the rest of us?


A question I would have is, couldn't not accepting Jesus also be a thought crime? I've never understood why it is that all other sins except that one can be forgiven.
That's not the unforgivable sin. Having no love (hardening your heart against God and against love) is unforgivable. Jesus said, Love God and show love to each other. Those are the two greatest commandments.

That's not the unforgivable sin. Having no love (hardening your heart against God and against love) is unforgivable. Jesus said, Love God and show love to each other. Those are the two greatest commandments.

Wait a sec... Are you saying I could get into heaven as a non-believer? My heart is certainly not hardened against God just as it is not hardened against the tooth fairy. I simply don't think either has ever existed.

In most conversations I have with Christians, they INSIST that you must accept Jesus. So that if one person loved his neighbor and did good all his life, he STILL would have no shot at entering heaven without accepting Jesus. Whereas, a person who spent his life raping and killing children would walk straight into heaven if he accepted Jesus the moment before he died.

Surely you can see how this doesn't sit right to a rational thinking person who doesn't believe what you do. But maybe I'm wrong and about to learn something here?

Wait a sec... Are you saying I could get into heaven as a non-believer?! My heart is certainly not hardened against God just as it is not hardened against the tooth fairy. I simply don't think either has ever existed.

The very fact that you are asking these questions mean you are open to where and how God can fit into your life.

God's a lot bigger than people think He is. Too many try to push Him into a little box and tape it shut and then wrap it up with pretty paper made from all their hopes and wishes and imaginings and private musings.

I'd write more, but have to start getting ready for work. I'll think about you in between cataloging books and will toss in more thoughts later.

Bad thoughts come to everyone Good and bad, but it does not mean she will go to hell for it. The bible says when bad thoughts come to your mind you must take them captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ and not dwell on them. Hope that helps :)

Some preacher of long ago said "you can't keep the birds from flying over your head, but you don't have to let them build a nest in your hair". Impure thoughts can come from our own nature or from an evil spiritual source. Whether it becomes sin depends on whether we reject the thought or begin to consider it as a possible course of action. God judges intent, and it is not sin to be tempted. The fact that she is disturbed by these thoughts could be a pretty good indication that her heart is right toward God. If that were not so, then those thoughts would not bother her. (I have preached the Word of God for many years, in case you are wondering.)

You could also tell your friend that if she has such a struggle with forgiveness how can she ever expect that accepting Jesus is worth it. Tell her that she needs to trust God and read the verses I posted on page 1.
You want to know about a person that did good all their life that waits until their dead bed to accept Jesus vs someone that did wrong all their life and claimed to be a Christian. I believe that each relationship with God is individual and you can not go by 'somebody else' that is one of the reasons people saying hypocrite gets to me. God knows your heart, he knows you will mess up but the question is are you playing games with God or are you learning from your mistakes? God knows whose hearts are pure and who is not really interested.

You want to know about a person that did good all their life that waits til their dead bed to accept Jesus vs someone that did wrong all their life and claimed to be a Christian.

I actually have the opposite question... How is it that a kind and gentle person who does good all of their life but NEVER managed to get himself to believe in virgin births, gets shut out of heaven before the guy who commits evil all of his life but starts believing in the moments before his death?

I will never understand this one thing if I live to be a million. How can we call this a compassionate, loving, and fair God?

I will never understand this one thing if I live to be a million. How can we call this a compassionate, loving, and fair God?

And who said this is what God does?

Of course God hears all of our thoughts. We are endlessly forgivable no matter what they are. God is our thoughts.

The church she goes to teaches guilt and fear. You can't make her see that the human-created church doctrine is her problem. God is love. There are no conditions or time limit. We all go to heaven, even if our church teaches that we must feel guilty and fearful of God. Sin is mankind not seeing itself as it really is.

Fear is simply the other side of love. God is both, everything and we are part of God.

And who said this is what God does?

Many Christians that I know claim that no matter how bad or how much you've sinned, all you have to do is accept Jesus, ask for forgiveness, and you will be cleansed of your sins and can enter heaven. Meanwhile, you cannot get into heaven no matter how good of a life you lived, if you don't accept Jesus as your Savior.

If this is incorrect, please let me know. Maybe I seriously misunderstand the doctrine.

Its sort of like this
Say you love someone and they love you
You are not required to cook, clean and do for them but out of the love you have for each other you do those things for each other.
Same with God we do not do good works to get to heaven
We do what is good and right because of the love for Jesus in our heart.

I hope I explained it good enough.

Addition:
You love your wife. She loves you. You come home from work, she is not going to say you can only enter IF you do this, that and obey me to the T.

Same with God we do not do good works to get to heaven
we do what is good and right because of the love for Jesus in our heart.

So you are admitting that doing good good simply out of respect and love for humanity and creation is not enough? That it's not about the rest of humanity, but only your love for God and Jesus?

I am NOT trying to be difficult... I just do not understand how a loving God allows a kind and gentle person to be eternally tortured just because they couldn't bring themselves to believe that which there is no evidence for. This is a big thing with me.

So you are admitting that doing good good simply out of respect and love for humanity and creation is not enough? That it's not about the rest of humanity, but only your love for God and Jesus?

I am NOT trying to be difficult... I just do not understand how a loving God allows a kind and gentle person to be eternally tortured just because they couldn't bring themselves to believe that which there is no evidence for. This is a big thing with me.

As NOhelp said, Christians do good works out of reflected love from God. (God loves me, therefore, in thanks, I love others.) You and others do good out of love for others.

Who said a kind and gentle person will be eternally tortured just because he doesn't believe in God?

Who said a kind and gentle person will be eternally tortured just because he doesn't believe in God?

Uh, Protestants? Muslims? I thought most Christian denominations thought this as well. I was raised Catholic and was told belief in God and accepting Jesus was a pretty important requirement to get into heaven. Has that changed?

Scottyv agrees: Read the bible? Hmmn. Yeah why not start with Revelations? C'mon this girls in trouble at least suggest a passage that has lifted you in times of despair, maybe a Psalm or something?
Com'on I did! They are at the bottom of this page but I guess you skipped over them.

Uh, Protestants? Muslims? I thought most Christian denominations thought this as well. I was raised Catholic and was told belief in God and accepting Jesus was a pretty important requirement to get into heaven. Has that changed?

Yes, those that do not accept Christ are not saved and do not go to heaven. Now is hell is torture or it is merely a place without God as the punishment or if it is just death, nothing more for those that don't believe, what exactly hell will be, is a real debate, but the fact that those who do not accept God goes there, is not a debate for a christian

I hear people asking about people that do not believe in God not going to heaven a lot.
What I can't figure out is if a person chooses to not believe in God then what is their problem about heaven. If they don't want God why do they want heaven? Just something I haven't figured out.

yes, those that do not accept Christ are not saved and do not go to heaven. Now is hell is torture or it is merely a place without God as the punishment or if it is just death, nothing more for those that don't beleive, what exactly hell will be, is a real debate, but the fact that those who do not accept God goes there, is not a debate for a christian

This is what I thought. Perhaps Wondergirl can expound on this. Again, this is a real problem for me and I suspect it's at the heart of my friend's problem as well. She's having doubts. Thought crimes if you will. Can she be saved?

A friend of mine is afraid she can be convicted and sentenced to hell for her thoughts.

I've read your whole message and it sounds like something which many faithful people experience when they are moving closer to God. It is very common among the Saints.


She's a very devout Christian. Super nice person. She goes to church every Sunday and sometimes even in the middle of the week. She also prays to God every morning and night.

Amen!! Sounds as though she truly loves God. She is truly blessed.


The other day, she mentioned something about going to hell. I laughed, because she's the most loyal Christian I know. But she wasn't kidding. She told me she has impure thoughts. She's married, but thinks about relationships with other men. She sometimes wishes bad things on people. Sometimes she's jealous of her sister and wishes something bad would happen to her. Nothing real bad, but like lose her job or something. She would secretly enjoy that. Ditto for some of her coworkers.

Satan is always looking to trap a faithful Christian:

1 Peter 5 8 Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

As a faithful Christian, I'm sure she knows the value of prayer during times of temptation. But you might want to remind her to simply pray when those thoughts pop in her brain. That is really what they are for. They are reminders to pray:

1 Thessalonians 5 17 Pray without ceasing.


My friend also claims she has a form of mental Tourette's syndrome, where she'll just impulsively think something like, "I hate God". She doesn't know why this happens, she doesn't hate God, but she can't stop herself from thinking that and much worse, although she wouldn't tell me what worse things she thought.

It probably happens when she prays doesn't it? It is Satan tempting her. When Satan discovers a faithful person, he redoubles his efforts to corrupt that person. It is said that it takes only one of Satan's demons to corrupt a whole city. But Satan sends entire armies of demons against one faithful soul, but he gets nowhere because of their love of God.

Far from being a simple disease, it is a sign of predestination. She has been discovered. The enemy wants to take her back. But she is God's now. She has nothing to fear.

Mark 9 5 For he knew not what he said: for they were struck with fear.


Of course, anyone who knows me knows I don't believe in any of this. But she seems genuinely distraught over this and I told her I knew of an online forum where people seem to be knowledgeable about Christianity and sincere about helping people. So I promised I would ask this question for her...

Can you be convicted of thought crimes?

Yes. If you dwell on them, relish them and plan to consummate them.

Matthew 5 28 But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.


But this wonderful woman obviously is horrified and repelled by these thoughts.


My own answer would be most certainly not, but what do I know? It would surpass all the things I already think are barbaric about the bible. It seems appalling to think that your innermost thoughts are under supreme surveillance 24/7. What a way to have to live!

So ignoring the truth is your solution?


So I'm guessing/hoping you'll say she's OK.

According to what I've read in your message, she seems to be one of God's elect. In my opinion, she is more than OK.


Again, she's one of the nicest sweetest people I know. She has to be for me to be posting a question on here for her. Even though I don't believe in any of this, I hate to see her so upset and worried about this. I'll print out some of your answers and show them to her. Thanks.

I hope this helps.

If she is Catholic as I suspect, she might want to read "the Story of a Soul" by St. Therese Lisieux:

http://www.marianland.com/saints101.html

St. Therese of Lisieux (http://conservation.catholic.org/st__therese.htm)

and the "Divine Mercy in my soul" by St. Faustina Kowalska.

Divine Mercy in my soul
Divine Mercy in my soul. The Diary of Sister Faustina Kowalska (http://www.our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/)

Excellent books on the subject of the journey of faith which we all experience.

Sincerely,

De Maria

"So ignoring the truth is your solution?"
This a quote of what De Maria said in response to George_1950. I can't answer for George, but...

Actually, yes. I am, although ignoring it is not exactly what I'm doing. The "truth" is unproven and was admittedly written and skewed by men who were after money and power. The "truth" is the Bible in this instance. The OP was asking how to help his friend who is disturbed because she fully invests herself in the ideas presented by the "truth."

The miserable friend is the subject in question, and why she is miserable. Christianity, as taught by her church is her current problem. There has been advise which does not change her belief system (good,) like, pray whenever a bad thought raises its ugly head. Reading of the Bible is suggested. These may well get her over the problem. These are her truth.

These things, I may also do. But believing my own truth is what has brought me peace. Allowing others to believe as they choose is part of the law of this country (USA), is it not? Freedom of religion means any religion. I realize that it is part of Christian Doctrine to bring as many followers as possible to Christ. It is not part of Christian Doctrine to invalidate those who will/can not be turned to Christ, is it?

Invalidation, judgement and fear of "satan" and of "hell" and of her own thoughts have caused problems for the person in question. How does invalidating the views of others help this woman?

"So ignoring the truth is your solution?"
This a quote of what De Maria said in response to George_1950. I can't answer for George, but...

I thought I addressed the OP.


Actually, yes. I am, although ignoring it is not exactly what I'm doing.

So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?


The "truth" is unproven

I disagree. The truth of Christianity is proven to my satisfaction.


and was admittedly written and skewed by men who were after money and power.

Really? Did the Apostles recant? I've not read those recantations. Please provide the references.


The "truth" is the Bible in this instance.

OK.


The OP was asking how to help his friend who is disturbed because she fully invests herself in the ideas presented by the "truth."

That is true.


The miserable friend

Miserable? I wouldn't characterize this wonderful lady as "miserable". In fact, I believe she is wonderful and wonderfully blessed with faith and love of God.


is the subject in question, and why she is miserable. Christianity, as taught by her church is her current problem.

No. Christianity is her great asset.


There has been advise which does not change her belief system (good,) like, pray whenever a bad thought raises its ugly head. Reading of the Bible is suggested. These may well get her over the problem. These are her truth.

OK.


These things, I may also do. But believing my own truth is what has brought me peace. Allowing others to believe as they choose is part of the law of this country (USA), is it not? Freedom of religion means any religion. I realize that it is part of Christian Doctrine to bring as many followers as possible to Christ. It is not part of Christian Doctrine to invalidate those who will/can not be turned to Christ, is it?

What are you talking about? Did my response invalidate your views?


Invalidation, judgement and fear of "satan" and of "hell" and of her own thoughts have caused problems for the person in question. How does invalidating the views of others help this woman?

Did I address anyone else's views? I thought I simply expounded my own opinion.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Actully Ex... we ARE our thoughts... as a man thinks so is he... fyi ( yep it is in the bible) ;)

A friend of mine is afraid she can be convicted and sentenced to hell for her thoughts.

She's a very devout Christian. Super nice person. She goes to church every Sunday and sometimes even in the middle of the week. She also prays to God every morning and night.

The other day, she mentioned something about going to hell. I laughed, because she's the most loyal Christian I know. But she wasn't kidding. She told me she has impure thoughts. She's married, but thinks about relationships with other men. She sometimes wishes bad things on people. Sometimes she's jealous of her sister and wishes something bad would happen to her. Nothing real bad, but like lose her job or something. She would secretly enjoy that. Ditto for some of her coworkers.

My friend also claims she has a form of mental Tourette's syndrome, where she'll just impulsively think something like, "I hate God". She doesn't know why this happens, she doesn't hate God, but she can't stop herself from thinking that and much worse, although she wouldn't tell me what worse things she thought.

Of course, anyone who knows me knows I don't believe in any of this. But she seems genuinely distraught over this and I told her I knew of an online forum where people seem to be knowledgeable about Christianity and sincere about helping people. So I promised I would ask this question for her...

Can you be convicted of thought crimes? My own answer would be most certainly not, but what do I know? It would surpass all the things I already think are barbaric about the bible. It seems appalling to think that your innermost thoughts are under supreme surveillance 24/7. What a way to have to live!

So I'm guessing/hoping you'll say she's ok. Again, she's one of the nicest sweetest people I know. She has to be for me to be posting a question on here for her. Even though I don't believe in any of this, I hate to see her so upset and worried about this. I'll print out some of your answers and show them to her. Thanks.
Well first of all, this is more about the "once saved always saved" message.. which I DO believe the bible teaches. Can we be convicted of our thoughts and ONLY our thoughts if we are NOT "in Christ" oh YEAH. But if you are "in Christ" you are made HIS righteousness and need to confess it to the Father... it is covered under the blood.

DeMaria, Christianity, by it's very tenants, invalidates any view other than its own. There is no arguing with that. Frequently, Christians (not saying you are) are rude and "all-knowing, quoting what they believe is the truth. I did not attack Christianity. I did not attack your beliefs. I just told you what I saw.

Lack of feeling like a perfect child of God is the woman's trouble. I see the problem as based in Christian teachings. It may not be.

You asked, "So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?" I explained that. We disagree on the Bible being the truth.

The whole point is to answer the OPs question. Have we done that?

Asking questions like "so is ignoring the truth your solution" or, "So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?" These questions are assumptive. They are asked, possibly, because you are convinced that the Bible is the Truth. They come across as judgemental and mean.

Anyone who does not believe in the bible is an idiot, or ignorant? They deserve to be put down? They are unworthy of your love and acceptance?

I apologize that my post has digressed from the original question.

Anyone who does not believe in the bible is an idiot, or ignorant? They deserve to be put down? They are unworthy of your love and acceptance?

Doesn't a Christian who says those things very obviously negate the message of the Gospel?

Doesn't a Christian who says those things very obviously negate the message of the Gospel?
It is a shame that so called christians talk like that. Just because some calls themselves a christian... doesn't make them one. And not all Christians are rude either. Just a few thoughts.

No, your friend will not go to hell for her thoughts if she has accepted Christ. His death guaranteed our forgiveness and eternal life with Him, all we have to do is accept it. To believe otherwise is bondage. Salvation is freedom not bondage. Have your friend read a book called "Breaking The Enemy's Grip" by Eddie Smith.

Technically you don't even have to ask for forgiveness for every sin (though we are told we should) IT WAS GIVEN ON THE CROSS. Salvation is not conditional after acceptance. If you sin and then die before you have a chance to repent do you think you will go to hell? Of course not! That defeats the purpose of God's gift to us of the sacrifice of His Son to cover our sins. We will forever sin, every one of us, "the saved" or "the unsaved". God knew this. He made the way for us, He sacrificed His only Son so that we would never have to worry about repenting and asking for forgiveness for every sin (He knows that is impossible for us! He is a fair God, He provided our "out"). The only thing we have to do is accept it. God said Not say we accept it and not really believe it we have to accept and really believe. The statement "God knows our hearts" is used a lot to claim one's place in Heaven without accepting Christ, well that's not enough to say God knows we try to do good and are "a good person" so that's enough, it means He knows if we truly accept and believe or not. It's not enough to say you believe there is a God either, even satan believes in God and Jesus. You must accept that Christ is the Son of God, that He lived and died for our sins so that we may be forgiven.

Yes you must accept Christ to live eternity with Him. It is biblical. It is not an opinion. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24) and "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6) That is the single only condition you must accept and believe. Nothing else. It doesn't say AND if you live a good life and obey me. But doing as God has commanded is a part of living the Christian life. After all the bible only tells us to put others first, to treat each others with love, to be moral... why is it that the Bible is so condemned for telling us how to live good lives? It doesn't say to be mean and hateful, to steal and kill each other, to molest and abuse, to put others or ourselves in harms way, to judge and be cruel, to be unforgiving and condemning... it simply tells us how to live unselfishly and with love.

There is only one unforgivable sin, it is biblical. Jesus mentions a sin that is unforgivable in Matt. 12:31-32 and calls it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. By simply looking at the context it becomes apparent that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying that Jesus did His miracles by the power of the devil. This is unforgivable. And no, A believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin. How can someone who has been born again (John 3:7), made a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), and received eternal life (John 10:27-28) actually commit the unforgivable sin? He cannot. Jesus Himself said that we have eternal life, not conditional life: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." Besides, it says in 2 Cor. 5:17 that the Christian is a new creation in Christ. We are different, no longer slaves to the old nature (Rom. 6:14). We are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.Jesus mentions a sin that is unforgivable in Matt. 12:31-32 and calls it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Once saved we sill still struggle with sin. EVERYDAY! We only need to turn to God and ask for help to overcome this sin. Not because that is what will save us but because that it what is right.

DeMaria, Christianity, by it's very tenants, invalidates any view other than its own.

For one thing, the woman that is the subject of this discussion is a Christian. Therefore her views are the Church's views.


There is no arguing with that.

For another, there is plenty of arguing with that.

First of all, the woman in question is a Christian therefore the argument you are presenting has nothing to do with this discussion.

Secondly, neither I nor the Church invalidated this woman's views or concerns. In fact, I commend her for the way she has lived her life and my opinion rests completely on Church teaching.

Thirdly, you seem to be concerned that Christianity invalidates "other views". But are you equally upset when people with "other views" object and attempt to invalidate Christian views?

And finally, are you not attempting to invalidate my Christian view in this very discussion? After all, I originally addressed the OP, not you. So why did you object to what I said? And after objecting to what I said, did you expect that I would not respond?


Frequently, Christians (not saying you are)

Thanks.


are rude and "all-knowing, quoting what they believe is the truth.

Please explain. Are you saying that when a Christian quotes what he believes is truth he is rude? What about when a non-Christian quotes what he believes is truth? Is he also being rude then?

Or have I misunderstood your point?


I did not attack Christianity.

Did I say that you attacked Christianity?


I did not attack your beliefs.

Did I say that you attacked me?


I just told you what I saw.

True. Lets review. I posted a response to the OP. You addressed me and disagreed with my response. And I responded to what you said.

I don't feel as though you attacked me. But I believe I have the right to address your objections. Fair enough?


Lack of feeling like a perfect child of God is the woman's trouble. I see the problem as based in Christian teachings. It may not be.

Obviously, I don't believe the woman has a problem at all. I believe she is a predestined child of God.


You asked, "So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?" I explained that. We disagree on the Bible being the truth.

Correct.


The whole point is to answer the OPs question. Have we done that?

I thought I did. And the OP seemed to agree. He said:


lobrobster agrees: Excellent post! Thanks!


Asking questions like "so is ignoring the truth your solution" or, "So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?" These questions are assumptive. They are asked, possibly, because you are convinced that the Bible is the Truth. They come across as judgemental and mean.

Yes, I do believe that the Bible is the Word of God and therefore the Truth.

Apparently, the OP, to whom the first question was addressed did not see itas mean. And they weren't intended to be mean. They were intended for clarification. This is what you said:


Actually, yes. I am, although ignoring it is not exactly what I'm doing.

First you said you were ignoring the truth and then, "not exactly". I think the answer is important to the discussion, don't you? Therefore, I believe you should have answered the question, so I asked for clarification. That's all.


Anyone who does not believe in the bible is an idiot, or ignorant? They deserve to be put down? They are unworthy of your love and acceptance?

Did I say that or did you? If I said that, please quote me.


I apologize that my post has digressed from the original question.

I'm not the one to whom you should apologize. As for me, I think you and I are having a polite debate. I don't mind having polite debates with anyone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

We will forever sin, each and every one of us, "the saved" or "the unsaved".

No, we won't forever sin. And even if we've said yes to God, we can change our minds and say no.

Wow what day do you become perfect? I will sin until I die. <----imperfect :)

Sorry don't understand your point Wondergirl.

Wow what day do you become perfect? I will sin until I die. <----imperfect :)

Sorry don't understand your point Wondergirl.

You had said we will sin "forever." Not true. Now you are saying you will sin "until I die." Big difference--and you finally got it right.