Will a gay person go to heaven? [Archive]

Fr_Chuck

Mar 18, 2008, 08:51 PM

Have they completely accepted Christ as their savior?

It is not loving everyone, it is not doing a lot of good works, but it is their love of Christ that matters.

It does say several places that homosexual sex is a sin, some will try and play with words, but it is. But so is a lot of other things.

The issue that I have is most do not want to admit it is a sin, and really something that needs to be repented and asked forgivness for.

I know many who have said they have accepted Christ as their savior, Jesus accepts everyone as they are, no matter what type of sinner we are. And it will be between them personally and God as to if and how he convicts them to change.

So only God knows if they really accepted Christ as their savior. But I will take them at their word, so since everyone that has accepted Christ is saved, if they have accepted Christ they are saved.

So to sum it up, the bible says it is a sin, so is adultry, sex outside of marriage, cheating on your taxes, not properly paying your pastor ( is my church reading this) and a ton of other things many people do all the time, Man is a sinner, we all sin, some more than others, but we all sin,
The goal as a saved Chrsitian is to try and live the best life we can, it will never be perfect, since only Christ was perfect.

ineedhelpfast

Mar 18, 2008, 09:16 PM

I agee with what fr said, but if we truly love God then we shouldn't do things that grieve His heart, and I still need God to work on some areas in my life. Like fr said were not perfect, but we know what we do is wrong because the Holy spirit convicts us, yet we still keep sinning, guess we'll never be perfect until we go to heaven

Moparbyfar

Mar 19, 2008, 02:03 AM

Rom 1:24-27

1 Tim 1:9-11

Jude 7 (compare Gen 19:4,5,24,25)

1 Cor 6:9-11 this scripture proves that it is possible for anyone, regardless of their previous unclean practices to change their ways and enjoy a clean standing with God.

The good news is that the term "hell" is actually symbolic, and since our grand creator is a God of love (1 John 4:8) does it seem reasonable to you that He would torture man forever? Divne justice? I think not.

templelane

Mar 19, 2008, 02:35 AM

I was reading this on the news and thought of this thread.
BBC NEWS | Magazine | What does the Bible actually say about being gay? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3205727.stm)
It seems to be a nice summary of both sides. I thought I would post it up to aid discussion but I won't comment further myself as it is not my place. Hope it helps :)

RickJ

Mar 19, 2008, 03:42 AM

Being attracted to the same sex is not a sin. For Christians, sex before valid marriage is where the sin is.

Allheart

Mar 19, 2008, 05:38 AM

Hi Brian -

If okay with you, I would like to give you a hug. :)

Brian, that is up to you and God. Sometimes asking questions such as that, is like asking
A heavy person if you are eating too much and is that why you are overweight?? Does, that make sense?

Please know this, God LOVES YOU!! Period and me too. I know a whole lot of Gay people a head of line way before me.

I had sex before I was married (age 21, but still is a sin).

I think each person in God's eyes is unique and He doesn't have us all in groups. Gays over there, Catholics over here, Atheist over there, and so on. He knows you heart.

I know that could be a troubling thought, and we all, have things to work on. I tell you what, I am more afraid for those who so quickly want to condemn someone to hell, then being punished for loving someone.

Is being Gay a sin? I don't know? But I get too annoyed to even hear any reason why it might be because people are so quick to jump the beuatiful Gay community becuae they have issues of ugliness themselves.

It makes me angry as heck (which by the way - anger is a sin) - That anyone on this earth could dare and make another feel so bad about themselves.

Okay my vent is over.

You quietly get on your knees and pray. Talk to God, just like a Father.
I share this with you. Each day, if possible, find some quiet time, where it is just you and God, or just listen to this beautiful video and clear your mind and have peace.

Never ever let others judge you, which by the way is a sin, and may prevent them from going to heaven ;)

More hugs for you.
Allheart

1cyWipTrNV4

****hugs******

Moparbyfar

Mar 21, 2008, 07:32 PM

jammixmaster

Mar 21, 2008, 07:54 PM

Look at it this way: God is Supposed to be omnipresent (everywhere), omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing). So if he is "all knowing" then he should have known that you and millions of other people would be homosexuals. So if he does throw you into hell that would be his own fault for not using his "all powerful" abilities to make you not be homosexual. If I was God I'd let anyone into heaven who gave me the proper worship and honor. Whether they were gay or not, if you loved me (I'm playing god remember) that's all that would matter. But the Christian god doesn't seem to be like that. You're supposed to be his child right? Well, answer this. If your child was a homosexual, would you throw them into a pit of fire? If so, then you shouldn't be a parent. If not, then why would god do that to his own "children"

Onan

Mar 21, 2008, 10:46 PM

Credendovidis

Mar 22, 2008, 05:07 AM

As a gay man and Christian I was told by alot of people that homosexuals will not go to heaven but will go to hell instead. I know that alot of older people believe this and I think that is not true because god love everyone. He would not make homosexuals unless there is a chance of them going to heaven. My question is where (book and chapters) does it say that homosexuals will go to hell or where (book and chapter again) does it said that they will not or does it not say neither?

Dear Brian,
Isn't the Christian (NT) God a god of love, of benevolence? A god that has "nothing" with sex, as it is neither male or female itself?
Why would such a god even consider your sexual preference as a prohibition to enter heaven?
Any position pro or contra anything can be supported with quotes form the Bibe.
Example : You want war and suffering? Quote from the OT. You want love and peace? Quote from the NT.
One Bible, two totally opposing instructions!
Don't worry too much about going to heaven or not. Ask yourself if you even want to go to heaven if the god in charge of that heaven opposes homosexuality (and by doing so actually suggests that he made a "construction mistake" but blames you for your sexual disposition.
Better still ask yourself if such a god can really exist, or that it is just a chimera created by goodwilling people who wanted to serve humanity with creating some guidelines how to live, but went overboard with the framework that supported their mythology...

Fr_Chuck

Mar 22, 2008, 05:33 AM

There are a few questionable relationships in the Bible.

I think before anyone answers this question they should do a little research on the relationships between Ruth and Naomi, David and Jonathan, and Danial and Ashpenaz.

Really no, these are a few that the pro gay groups have tried to use over the years but there is no proof and the real issue is that people today want to judge relastionhips and customs from their time to customs of ours and it just will not work that way.

But we have to remember that God is a God of love and FORGIVENESS but he is also a just God and one who is also a God of his word.
IT is not God that dooms us to hell, but Satan, and ourself. We are told his HOLY WORD, we are told what to do to be saved. And what actions are acceptable to him and which ones are not.

So it is us, that decide our fate. And God does not want any to perish, but it is our actions that decide it.

Onan

Mar 22, 2008, 10:02 AM

Really no, these are a few that the pro gay groups have tried to use over the years but there is no proof and the real issue is that people today want to judge relastionhips and customs from their time to customs of ours and it just will not work that way.

It's funny you say that because that is the same reason I don't think anything in the Bible is for us today. Everything in it was written for people back then. Everything explained in it was by people who didn't know any better. For example back then if a volcano erupted it was an angry God who did it.

the real issue is that people today want to judge relastionhips and customs from their time to customs of ours and it just will not work that way.

I'm afraid that's not the case at all for example with the Ruth and Naomi, in Ruth 1:14 the hebrew word "clave" used in that verse, is identical to that used in the description of a heterosexual marriage in Genesis 2:24: " Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

I think that's pretty clear. So I'm not judging by today's customs, I'm using their own customs. If the word meant something back then, that's what it means.

As far as the David and Jonathan? C'mon they did some things I wouldn't chalk up to customs. I don't think getting naked, hugging and kissing between guys back then was looked upon any differently than it is today. I hardly think it was their way of saying hello. If someone were to see something like that then, they would think the same thing we would today. Wow, they must be lovers.

Now I will admit the case of Danial and Ashpenaz is a bit weird because they were both eunuchs. I read somewhere though that if males are castrated after puberty, they still retain sexual drive. So it's not totally out of the question.

ineedhelpfast

Mar 22, 2008, 10:34 AM

Ruth and naomi were daugter in-law and mother in-law, ruth married boaz... david and jonathan were best friends almost like friends, as it says in prverbs there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother... I really haven't done much research on daniel and ashpenaz, but I will get back to you when I have.

Galveston1

Mar 22, 2008, 03:45 PM

Sin is defined as transgression of the law. Any transgression other than the sin against the Holy Ghost is forgivable, but has to be forsaken after forgivness. Same gender sex is probalby the most basic rejection of God possible. The first commandment to man was to replenish the earth. Something not possible by one gender. Same gender sex says to God, "you got it all wrong". God calls it confusion.

Brian24

Mar 22, 2008, 04:04 PM

Onan

Mar 22, 2008, 04:11 PM

ruth and naomi were daugter in-law and mother in-law, ruth married boaz

This would not prevent a relationship, nor would it explain why the writers used the word they used in that passage above.

david and jonathan were best friends almost like friends, as it says in prverbs there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother

The bible describes Davids love for Jonathan stronger(better if you will) than any love he ever had for a woman. I have had many male friends but I can ashure you I never felt that way for any of them.

Same gender sex is probalby the most basic rejection of God possible.

God gave the gift of love, correct? How is that gift different if it is with the same sex? Why is someone expected to turn from the gift of love because somewhere along the line humans became homophobic? The thing I find funny is outside the OT there really isn't much said about this subject. Jesus surly never taught against same sex marriage. I would think if it were that important Jesus/God would have said something about it during one of his sermons. Again I have to remind you that it is not a choice it's who they are. If it was something that was that important to God he in his all knowing and all powerful glory would have created us differently or made sure there was no way in hell people of the same sex were attracted to each other.

Galveston1

Mar 22, 2008, 04:51 PM

Gen 19:5
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
(KJV)

Lev 18:22
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
(KJV)

Lev 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(KJV)

Matt 19:4
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
(KJV) This statement was made in the context of a question about divorce, but the plain statement remains, so Jesus did address the subject.

Rom 1:24-28
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(KJV)

1 Cor 6:9
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(KJV)
(definition of abusers of themselves with mankind)
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace);
From 730 and 2845; a sodomite:
KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.

Fr_Chuck

Mar 22, 2008, 04:56 PM

Onan and a few others wish to pervert the word of God but why I can say his ideas are not only silly but not possible, is the bible has never held back telling us of the sin of the early leaders, We know there were many sins of the flesh, murders, and more. So from seeing this, if there was a sinful relastionship going on, they would have told us. As an example of how they were either punished for their sin, or forgiven when they repented.

But you were given some examples, it is clear beyond a doubt it is a sin, and that of course is the issue I have with MOST gays, they will not just admit this is a sin. The drunk or the person living in adultry, all will normally admit if they are living in sin, and not try to change God's word to make it appear they are living God's will.

ordinaryguy

Mar 22, 2008, 05:02 PM

Don't worry too much about going to heaven or not.
Yes. First things first. The best preparation for the next life is to live this one wisely and well.

How you interpret and act on your sexual urges has far more serious consequences for this life than for the next. Whether you're hetero- or homo-, if you live a long time, sex will probably cease to be much of a concern long before you die. Keep it in perspective.

Moparbyfar

Mar 22, 2008, 10:14 PM

Gen 19:5
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
(KJV)

Lev 18:22
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
(KJV)

Lev 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(KJV)

Matt 19:4
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
(KJV) This statement was made in the context of a question about divorce, but the plain statement remains, so Jesus did address the subject.

Rom 1:24-28
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(KJV)

1 Cor 6:9
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Ah there's no point Galveston1 - I already offered Brian some scriptures to prove homosexuality is not approved of by God but he's either not reading the threads properly or trying to ignore the truth. :(

Onan

Mar 22, 2008, 10:44 PM

Well there you have it Brian, plenty to read and think about.

I really wouldn't worry too much about what was written by a paranoid group of people thousands of years ago from their little part of the world. You really have to consider the source. Do you really think we should live our lives from a book that came from the middle east?

You guys have posted some great scriptures and I know you mean well by doing so, but the fact remains that the Bible was written by man.

I also would like to point out for Brian that even if you choose to believe David didn't have that kind of relationship with a man it would have been the lesser of his "sins". David was a heathen. He had wives(as in more than 1) and lovers, and he was a murderer. He was the poster child for just about everything today's christianity preaches against, yet he was a man after Gods own heart. I think it's safe to say, if God accepted David as he was, he shouldn't have a problem with you using the gift he gave you.

Moparbyfar

Mar 22, 2008, 11:02 PM

WOW! Imagine if Adam had been gay..? ;)

Onan

Mar 22, 2008, 11:15 PM

WOW! Imagine if Adam had been gay...???? ;)

Well being that there was never a time when there was only 2 humans on this earth I don't think it would have been that big a deal if he was gay.. :) :)

We won't go there though, at least not on this thread.

Moparbyfar

Mar 22, 2008, 11:25 PM

Well being that there was never a time when there was only 2 humans on this earth I don't think it would have been that big a deal if he was gay..:) :)

We won't go there though, at least not on this thread.

Yeh, you're better suited for the evolution, we are 'monkeys uncle' thread mate!

KABOOM! (Thats just another planet forming out of nowhere.)

Onan

Mar 22, 2008, 11:29 PM

Yeh, you're better suited for the evolution, we are 'monkeys uncle' thread mate!

KABOOM! (Thats just another planet forming out of nowhere.)

Truth be told, I usually stay away from that topic because I am not a scientist. It's boring to debate and even more boring to read.

Onan

Mar 22, 2008, 11:42 PM

And by the sounds of it you think the same of the bible?

Oh no, not at all. I love reading the Bible. I love reading anything religious. My favorite sites are early jewish writings and early christian writings.

ordinaryguy

Mar 23, 2008, 05:12 AM

Oh no, not at all. I love reading the Bible. I love reading anything religious. My favorite sites are early jewish writings and early christian writings.
As in Kabbalists and Gnostics, or earlier than that? Any favorite links you'd suggest?

Brian24

Mar 23, 2008, 05:46 AM

Tuscany

Mar 23, 2008, 05:47 AM

I firmly believe that if you live your life to the fullest and you welcome God into your life you will go to heaven. God loves everyone, it is people who chose to hate. I remember when I was in college there was a guy standing in the student center preaching. I stopped to listen (it always facinates me how people can make religon such a public thing, I feel that religon is more personal. But that is just my opinion). Anyway, he said and I quote "Do you have a tatoo, have you had sex before marriage, are you on birth control, are you a homosexual, if you answered yes to any of these you are going to hell."

Imagine my shock, I have 5 tatoos (4 at the time), I was on birth control, and my favorite Aunt is gay. Lord I thought this is IT! God is going to strike me dead right here in the student center. And what about poor Aunt Daphne... did she know she was going to hell.

Ok so some of this I thought was comical, but I wanted the opinion of someone I trusted. I went to the Sister who ran my church. I told her what I had heard. She laughed outloud. She told me that as long as people let God into their hearts, God would let you into his house when your time came. So, love yourself, love God, and cherish the time you have on earth.

Allheart

Mar 23, 2008, 05:51 AM

Ok so some of this I thought was comical, but I wanted the opinion of someone I trusted. I went to the Sister who ran my church. I told her what I had heard. She laughed outloud. She told me that as long as people let God into their hearts, God would let you into his house when your time came. So, love yourself, love God, and cherish the time you have on earth.

And here my friends is THE answer.

Bless one and all and bless Tuscany for sharing.

Onan

Mar 23, 2008, 06:01 AM

As in Kabbalists and Gnostics, or earlier than that? Any favorite links you'd suggest?

I don't know why I didn't leave a link in the first place. These 2 sites are great. It's where I do most of my reading.

Early Jewish Writings--Tanakh, Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha, and More (http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/)

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/)

Credendovidis

Mar 23, 2008, 06:12 AM

Allheart

Mar 23, 2008, 06:18 AM

Brian : based on the claimed benevolence of the deity called "God" there is no reason to assume that personal sexual preference is of any importance in that decision. The existence of "God" is however an entirely different matter, and is open to personal interpretation of the validity of the Biblical scriptures.
.

I do agree that God will review our scorecard so to speak at the end, but here's my one problem, some people say it is a preference... and none of us know that for sure.

But great post Cred.

Credendovidis

Mar 23, 2008, 06:40 AM

... some people say it is a preference ... and none of us know that for sure.
Indeed : some even argue that. But why would a deity be bothered by that?
How does my preference/disposition for hetero-sexual contacts make me a better or worse human being than one who prefers homo-sexual contacts?
.
What is the relevance of sexual disposition if related to how one lives his/her life?
.

Fr_Chuck

Mar 23, 2008, 06:45 AM

Allheart

Mar 23, 2008, 06:54 AM

Because one preference is natural, and the other is not, one is accepted by God and the other is not. Using that, one could say why would God care if I steal or not, one would say, I prefer to steal not work for a living, so why should God care. Why would God care if someone prefered to have sex with children that is just thier preference right ?

It is because there is a moral authority, Gods rules, people may not like them or accept them, but they are there. So that is why God does not accept it.

Fr. Chuck,

I hope you know how much I adore and resepct you. You were there for me and I will NEVER forget it.

But with most of what you shared, there is a choice involved. Choice to steal or not.
Being gay, may not be a choice. I honestly don't think it is. And the pain I see on peoples faces just kills me because of their inner turmoil.

Now I am not saying to just dive into it - but perhaps seek religious guidance on maybe how to live with something you don't have control over.

Fr_Chuck

Mar 23, 2008, 07:04 AM

That is OK, I have gay friends, and I know they are saved and have accepted Christ, They know where I stand, but they are OK with it, since they know I don't have anything against them, just the sexual acts they do.

But there are some that because of some problem can't control their stealing, ( but it is still stealing and they will go to court)
And there are people in prison because they can't stop thierself from wanting sex with children,

So merely having that desire still does not mean it is right, what and how we control those feelings is what determines who we are

Allheart

Mar 23, 2008, 07:07 AM

That is ok, I have gay friends, and I know they are saved and have accepted Christ, They know where I stand, but they are ok with it, since they know I don't have anything against them, just the sexual acts they do.

but there are some that because of some problem can't control thier stealing, ( but it is still stealing and they will go to court)
and there are people in prison because they can't stop thierself from wanting sex with children,

So merely having that desire still does not mean it is right, what and how we control those feelings is what determines who we are

All of what you say is so very true. And I think God knows how they suffer.

Fr. Chuck, why are gays so highlighted more so then the other "sins" committed. Does that question make sense?

Thanks :)

marvin_082500

Mar 24, 2008, 01:04 AM

marvin_082500

Mar 24, 2008, 01:18 AM

Allheart

Mar 24, 2008, 01:24 AM

Homesexuals will go to hell if they have sex relationship with the same sex. Rome1:23-32

Sorry, I think judgemental people may be ahead of them in line.

Awful thing to say without any loving advice.

marvin_082500

Mar 24, 2008, 02:30 AM

Sorry, I think judgemental people may be ahead of them in line.

Awful thing to say without any loving advice.

I just answer his question: if is there a bible verse saying homosexual go to hell.

Allheart

Mar 24, 2008, 02:32 AM

I just answer his question: if is there a bible verse saying homosexual go to hell.

I was wrong to have got upset, but I do worry the effect it could have on someone who just reads it and is not guided with love, the way God would do.

I do apologize to you - just realize there are people with feelings on the otherside of the monitor.

May your day be sunny.

Galveston1

Mar 24, 2008, 09:26 AM

Gay have a place in heaven.. I Tim. 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto knoeledge of the truth."

2 Pet 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(KJV)

"come unto the knowledge of the truth" includes the concept of "repentence". God forgives sin, but for that to happen there has to be repentance of that sin and a willingness to stop that sin.

It has been well said that attraction to the same sex is not sin until it is acted upon, any more that the temptation to steal is not sin unless the intent is there to carry it out.

Free advice is just that; free. If you really want to be right with God, accept what He says and ask Him to give you the strength to become what He has in mind for you, and that is that you eventually become like His Son.

Moparbyfar

Mar 24, 2008, 08:26 PM

Hey guys thinks alot for the posts. I would just like to say that I read some quotes from a post (by Moparbyfar) saying that being gay is wrong in the bible. Are there any quotes saying it is right to be gay? I know in my heart that god loves me althrough I am gay I am just looking to see what the bible has to say. Can any answer my question?

If there were scriptures proving that gays ARE accepted in the bible, don't you think God would be contradicting himself, since you've already seen the proof of gays, lesbians etc being a gross sin? Of course God loves you, that's the whole reason why he gave his precious son as a sacrifice for us ALL. The best way we can all show God that we love him in return is by fighting off our sinful tendencies to be found favorable in His eyes.
Sure, people say that being gay is not a choice, that it is in their genetic make-up, but this is also true of some alcoholics but with the right motivation, they can avoid drinking and lead a clean, sober life.
I truly believe that homosexuality can be avoided as proof of an American actor who changed his 'full homosexual" ways and became a minister of God (I have just finished reading this account) shows.
The question I have for you though, is are you really willing to change to SHOW God how appreciative you are of his ransom sacrifice? Many are clearly not.

Fr_Chuck

Mar 24, 2008, 08:40 PM

As I stated in a early post and then directed it differently in another post

While it is a sin, those that have accepted Christ are no differnent than any other sinner, They are still saved, but are a sinner. Now this is where the big fight normally comes, as with any sin, we should try and stop the sin, jesus as he said to other sinners in the bible when he forgave them, that they are forgiven but to go and sin no more.

And with all sin in our life, we are to admit the sin, to repent of that sin and to ask God to forgive us. So those are normally the issues that the gays I know have, they wish God to re-write the bible so they can remain in their sin and in fact have that sin declared a preferred way of life.

Onan

Mar 24, 2008, 08:50 PM

that it is in their genetic make-up, but this is also true of some alcoholics but with the right motivation, they can avoid drinking and lead a clean, sober life.

C'mon, your comparing homosexuality to a disease? I don't care who the person is it is always his choice to pick up a bottle. When he becomes addicted it becomes a disease. In most cases with homosexuals, they know early on they like the same sex. It's who they are. They are born that way. You are never born an alcoholic. Asking them to be straight would be like asking me to be gay. I know this is a christian board and I know you feel like your giving this guy good advice, but I cannot sit here and let this guy think there is something wrong with him. When he starts trying to be something he's not, that's when he's got a problem. When you can prove the bible was inspired by god and not man, and that it is without error then you can tell him being gay is a sin. Until then Brian, you just follow your heart and be who you are.

Moparbyfar

Mar 24, 2008, 10:34 PM

C'mon, your comparing homosexuality to a disease?? I don't care who the person is it is always his choice to pick up a bottle. When he becomes addicted it becomes a disease. In most cases with homosexuals, they know early on they like the same sex. It's who they are. They are born that way. You are never born an alcoholic. Asking them to be straight would be like asking me to be gay. I know this is a christian board and I know you feel like your giving this guy good advice, but I cannot sit here and let this guy think there is something wrong with him. When he starts trying to be something he's not, thats when he's got a problem. When you can prove the bible was inspired by god and not man, and that it is without error then you can tell him being gay is a sin. Until then Brian, you just follow your heart and be who you are.

Not born an alcoholic but born with a gene that leans them toward the likeliness of becoming one.
Is it OK then for people who are 'born with a short fuse' to emotionally and physically abuse others because that's just the way they are?
Imperfection... it's a real bumma, but it doesn't mean to say we let loose with all our "born with it" bad traits and call them acceptable.
Ultimately it is a gays choice to behave the way they do. You say you enjoy reading the bible, so why not read up on the ones that WERE living this way yet CHANGED to please God (1 Cor 6:9-11)... and while you're at it, why don't you prove BEYOND ALL DOUBT that the bible is just a history book with no relevance for today. :)

NeedKarma

Mar 25, 2008, 03:40 AM

..and while you're at it, why don't you prove BEYOND ALL DOUBT that the bible is just a history book with no relevance for today. :)What does the bible say about telephones and cars and computers and airplanes and satellites?

Moparbyfar

Mar 25, 2008, 04:58 AM

What does the bible say about telephones and cars and computers and airplanes and satellites?

I have not been able to find a single telephone, car, PC, airplane or satellite yet that can teach me how to benefit my life fully.
These things are forever changing but the bible remains the same.
I would rather put my faith in something solid like God's word than "treasures on earth" that are only temporary.
Wouldn't you put your faith in a guidebook that's practical rather than one that's just full of empty 'words?'
From what I can gather, thousands of years ago people who worshipped the true God had laws and statutes they stuck to as a protection. Down through the ages though, many have turned away from these commandments and... gee! What a surprise, today we have sheer mayhem! Why? Because the practical advice given to them by their God has for the most part been ignored and they think they know better than their creator.
Anyway, sorry Brian, :rolleyes: getting a bit off the subject at hand aren't we.

NeedKarma

Mar 25, 2008, 05:02 AM

I have not been able to find a single telephone, car, pc, airplane or satellite yet that can teach me how to benefit my life fully.That's how many of us feel about the bible.

Credendovidis

Mar 25, 2008, 05:45 AM

Previously Posted by Moparbyfar : I have not been able to find a single telephone, car, PC, airplane or satellite yet that can teach me how to benefit my life fully.

Reaction Posted by NeedKarma : That's how many of us feel about the bible.
Indeed : the bible neither teaches you how to benefit your life fully. It only projects a single view on life. The Christian view.
Good point!
:rolleyes:

sassyT

Mar 25, 2008, 10:52 AM

Indeed : the bible neither teaches you how to benefit your life fully. It only projects a single view on life. The Christian view.
Good point!
:rolleyes:

Okey, so here is a tip, if you don't like the "Christian View" don't read the Bible and don't dedicate your free time to reading what Christians Have to say on Christian Forums. Get a life basically.

Moparbyfar

Mar 25, 2008, 02:39 PM

That's how many of us feel about the bible.

Then I guess you're not a practical person, for eg: the bible speaks of putting an end to all wars. Sound practical to you? If we all learnt to get along and stop trying to kill each other wouldn't this be practical? The bible explains how these things will happen (Dan 2:44; Psa 37:10,11)
If you simply don't believe then I feel sorry for you, because far better off are we when buying a car/washing machine/cell phone or computer, to use the manual than try and use them the way WE THINK they should be used... we have a manual for life in the form of Gods Word. But now, thanks to the millions not using it properly or not at all, the breakdown in society is widespread.
Tell me, what is it that you find hard to accept about the bible? You can put this up in a separate thread if you wish, but curiosity has got me.

Fr_Chuck

Mar 25, 2008, 04:29 PM

I have not been able to find a single telephone, car, pc, airplane or satellite yet that can teach me how to benefit my life fully.
These things are forever changing but the bible remains the same.
I would rather put my faith in something solid like God's word than "treasures on earth" that are only temporary.
Wouldn't you put your faith in a guidebook thats practical rather than one that's just full of empty 'words?'
From what I can gather, thousands of years ago people who worshipped the true God had laws and statutes they stuck to as a protection. Down through the ages though, many have turned away from these commandments and...gee! What a suprise, today we have sheer mayhem! Why? Because the practical advice given to them by their God has for the most part been ignored and they think they know better than their creator.
Anyway, sorry Brian, :rolleyes: getting a bit off the subject at hand aren't we.

Airplanes, cars and all of that is mentioned, it is mentioned in the lust of thy neighbors property, it is mentioned when they talk about building up your treasure in heaven not on earth.. It shows you how to live a life of peace of spirit, the important issues of life. You want a drivers manual for a car, go to the DMV, if you want to know how to live your life in a happy manner, you read the bible. But I am glad you do agree that if you don't live by God's word, there is mayhem, it is only by following Gods word that there will be order and peace in society.

Fr_Chuck

Mar 25, 2008, 04:33 PM

C'mon, your comparing homosexuality to a disease?? I don't care who the person is it is always his choice to pick up a bottle. When he becomes addicted it becomes a disease. In most cases with homosexuals, they know early on they like the same sex. It's who they are. They are born that way. You are never born an alcoholic. Asking them to be straight would be like asking me to be gay. I know this is a christian board and I know you feel like your giving this guy good advice, but I cannot sit here and let this guy think there is something wrong with him. When he starts trying to be something he's not, thats when he's got a problem. When you can prove the bible was inspired by god and not man, and that it is without error then you can tell him being gay is a sin. Until then Brian, you just follow your heart and be who you are.

How do you know it is not a "disease" some bio-chemical make up, some gene that has changed, ** I am not saying it is, the issue is that no one can as for as I know what cuases it. What if we do though research find out that it is caused by something that could be treated, what then?

*** not saying we should or should not, but throwing it out

Onan

Mar 25, 2008, 07:15 PM

Is it OK then for people who are 'born with a short fuse' to emotionally and physically abuse others because that's just the way they are?

No, it's against the law. A person like that belongs in prison or a mental hospital. Last I checked it is not against the law to be gay.

Ultimately it is a gays choice to behave the way they do.

Yes, they have a choice to live a lie, or be who they are.

and while you're at it, why don't you prove BEYOND ALL DOUBT that the bible is just a history book with no relevance for today

Actually it's not even a good history book. It's a great read if your interested in the beliefs and culture, but that's about it.

As far as relevance for today? This is a whole other topic. I won't mind explaining why I know the Bible was written by man and only man though.

It would take a book to list all of the reasons but I will only name a few. It should only take one to discredit the whole thing but I know one would not be good enough.

2 kings
2:23 And he(Elisha) went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

I have often wondered what this story is supposed to mean. Every time I have almost thought of a great meaning for this story I just couldn't help but think about those poor parents who lost their kids. Of course we know this story isn't true. No loving, caring God would ever do something like that. Which means there probably isn't much of a chance he had anything to do with the writing of this story either.

Another good read is Leviticus. You want to know about stuff that doesn't apply to today? Read that book. I will post a few verses from that book that doesn't sound like something from an all loving and caring God.

Leviticus 20
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

Onan

Mar 25, 2008, 07:29 PM

Whoops, I didn't mean to hit post

Here is the rest of that post.

Anyway that's just a few. The book of Leviticus is filled with these horrible man made laws.

I find it hard to believe any loving, caring god would have anything to do with laws such as those.

Lets shift over to the NT for 1 more. If God had anything to do with the writing of the Bible then why did someone feel the need to create fake genealogies for Jesus to David if he had no physical father? That's something that didn't even need to be done if the guy was truly a demi god. The reason is because Jesus couldn't be the Messiah unless he was from the Davidic lineage. So man(who ever actually wrote the 2 gospels with the genealogies), had to tie it up some how. Did someone order a demi god? If a perfect God had anything to do with this, there wouldn't have been such an obvious mistake. The sad thing is the 2 genealogies from these guys don't even agree with each other.

There is so much more. The point is again,, The Bible was written by man, the laws were written by man. As time changed we decided as humans that most of those rules were useless but for some reason we still try to tell ourselves that other parts of the Bible still apply or is still true.

Fr_Chuck

Mar 25, 2008, 07:36 PM

No, the two genealogies are one from Mary and the other one from Joseph, since as his legal father under Jewish law, Jesus was and had the rights to inheritance though Joseph. Since he was not really Josephs son, this took into the consideration the Old testement of not being though that house but still tied him to it. And we have the one though Mary given. So no mistake, just your misunderstanding of what it was.

But you are right, man decided they did not need God's law, this is nothing new, man ran away from Gods law many times, and normally suffer for it.

Onan

Mar 25, 2008, 08:00 PM

No, the two genealogies are one from Mary and the other one from Joseph,

I have heard this before, and it cannot be. For 1 if it were Mary's why have Joseph in it?
2. If it were Mary's it still doesn't explain why they couldn't agree on the name of Joseph's father which in my opinion still makes it a bit shady.

Fr_Chuck

Mar 25, 2008, 08:21 PM

First of course these genealogy are abridged, there are abridged with many of the early names omitted In Luke after David the lines separate to touch on both Shealtiel and Zerubbabel.

The accepted view is that Matthew gives Joseph line, and Luke Marys line.
Joseph line was needed to how jesus the legal heir to the promises of Abraham and David Amd Mary lins showing the blood line.

Mary's line was written according to Jewish usage was in her husbands name, Joseph was the "son of Heil" or son in law to Heil
Since we know Josephs father name was really Jacob (Mat 1:16)

I have a couple books on the linage but it is too late to dig them out, I am sure of course there will be PRO and NEG points on this on the web.

This is the "MOST" accepted opinin but again some scholars do not agree, but then some do not agree on any issue

Onan

Mar 25, 2008, 08:58 PM

First of course these genealogy are abridged, there are abridged with many of the early names omitted In Luke after David the lines seperate to touch on both Shealtiel and Zerubbabel.

The accepted view is that Matthew gives Joseph line, and Luke Marys line.
Joseph line was needed to how jesus the legal heir to the promises of Abraham and David Amd Mary lins showing the blood line.

Mary's line was written according to Jewish usage was in her husbands name, Joseph was the "son of Heil" or son in law to Heil
Since we know Josephs father name was really Jacob (Mat 1:16)

I have a couple books on the linage but it is too late to dig them out, I am sure of course there will be PRO and NEG points on this on the web.

This is the "MOST" accepted opinin but again some scholars do not agree, but then some do not agree on any issue

I have read articles by both sides and I really do think they both have interesting ideas. The problem is, this is just a small part of the big problem I have with the whole story. I didn't want to list everything because once again I am taking something away from the question asked. I guess my point is, if God had anything to do with the writing of the Bible this is an erea I would have expected him to make sure nothing was left open for debate. I mean this is supposed to be an all knowing, powerful God right. Is this really that hard of a task?

Galveston1

Mar 26, 2008, 01:26 PM

I have read articles by both sides and I really do think they both have interesting ideas. The problem is, this is just a small part of the big problem I have with the whole story. I didn't want to list everthing because once again I am taking something away from the question asked. I guess my point is, if God had anything to do with the writing of the Bible this is an erea I would have expected him to make sure nothing was left open for debate. I mean this is supposed to be an all knowing, powerful God right. Is this really that hard of a task??

This has nothing to do with the original question, but - - -

Rev 5:5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(KJV)

Jesus is referred to as the "root" of David. One of the descendent kings of David's line was so evil that God said no one of his descendents would ever reign as king, thus cutting off the royal line. The root of David refers to another of David's sons, Nathan by name, who was in Mary's lineage. God kept His word to David about his greater Son reigning while cutting off the royal line. Fr. Church has already explained the difference about Joseph's lineage.

Moparbyfar

Mar 26, 2008, 06:50 PM

2 kings
2:23 And he(Elisha) went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

I have often wondered what this story is supposed to mean. Every time I have almost thought of a great meaning for this story I just couldn't help but think about those poor parents who lost their kids. Of course we know this story isn't true. No loving, caring God would ever do something like that. Which means there probably isn't much of a chance he had anything to do with the writing of this story either.

THE MEANING OF 2 KINGS 2:23 -

Elisha was the successor of Elijah the prophet, and when he was walking past these boys, they mocked and ridiculed him, not because he was bald but because they knew he was a representative of God as he was wearing Elijah's recognisable garment, and they didn't want a successor of Elijah around, so they were basically telling him in a smart-alec way to go up to heaven the same way Elijah did. This was a test of Elisha's prophetship not to mention the great disrespect shown to him as a representative of God, so in showing his approval of Elisha, when called upon, he answered by way of the two bears. This was a lesson for parents to teach their children proper respect.
Of course we would naturally feel sorry for anyone who loses their child but the same happened to the Egyptians when the 10th plague hit - another lesson for the unrighteous. All lessons. Something we can look back to and learn that by our actions we will be judged accordingly, not with bears popping out of nowhere or by us turning to a pillar of salt, but when armageddon finally arrives. God does not perform miracles now because we now have the complete bible which contains all miracles, signs, examples etc that pertain to any questions or thoughts we have about life, spirituality, death etc.
:)

Onan

Mar 26, 2008, 07:12 PM

This has nothing to do with the original question, but - - -

Rev 5:5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(KJV)

Jesus is referred to as the "root" of David. One of the descendent kings of David's line was so evil that God said no one of his descendents would ever reign as king, thus cutting off the royal line. The root of David refers to another of David's sons, Nathan by name, who was in Mary's lineage. God kept His word to David about his greater Son reigning while cutting off the royal line. Fr. Chuch has already explained the difference about Joseph's lineage.

Yes I understand what you guys are saying, and I would love to continue because I have a lot to say on this subject, but I would rather wait until a question came up that was more suitable.

This was a test of Elisha's prophetship not to mention the great disrespect shown to him as a representative of God, so in showing his approval of Elisha, when called upon, he answered by way of the two bears. This was a lesson for parents to teach their children proper respect.

I understand what the lesson is. I don't understand the murder. To me the mass murder overshadows anything the writer was trying to teach. The Bible is filled with these kinds of stories of mass murder and I find it hard to believe that an all knowing God didn't have a better way of teaching people. I don't mean to keep repeating myself but this is a story that wasn't even good for people back then let alone for us today. It's just a flat out horrible story. I know it didn't really happen but that makes no difference to me. It's not a nice story and one I wouldn't even let my kids read. Hell I won't even let my kids pick up a Bible because of it's content. Yet we have people like falwell(sp) complain about the Harry Potter books. You can't help but laugh sometimes.

Moparbyfar

Mar 26, 2008, 07:54 PM

I understand what the lesson is. I don't understand the murder. To me the mass murder overshadows anything the writer was trying to teach. The Bible is filled with these kinds of stories of mass murder and I find it hard to believe that an all knowing God didn't have a better way of teaching people.

Lack of 'accurate knowledge' will always confuse people, because they don't have a full understanding of God and who he really is. It's nothing to simply read something and use our own understanding in the place of Gods but it takes a lot of deep deep studying and comparing and genuine prayer - something maybe you see as a timewaster since God could not have possibly used the writers of the bible to pen his own thoughts - to get the full meaning of what God is really trying to get across.

Peace out. :cool:

Onan

Mar 26, 2008, 09:01 PM

Lack of 'accurate knowledge' will always confuse people, because they don't have a full understanding of God and who he really is. It's nothing to simply read something and use our own understanding in the place of Gods but it takes a lot of deep deep studying and comparing and genuine prayer - something maybe you see as a timewaster since God could not have possibly used the writers of the bible to pen his own thoughts - to get the full meaning of what God is really trying to get across.

Peace out. :cool:

Murder is murder, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist or 'accurate knowledge' to understand that. I don't care if it's God doing it or not. Murder is wrong according to God(even though he had a hard time throughout the Bible keeping his own commandment) and humans. If prayer makes me see that any differently then I would commit myself because murder is murder. I would not follow a man who thinks murder is OK, so why should I follow a God who does? I find it hard to believe anyone would condone or make excuses for this kind of behavior. It kind of contradicts that God is loving and caring, don't you think?

sassyT

Mar 27, 2008, 12:37 PM

Murder is murder, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist or 'accurate knowledge' to understand that. I don't care if it's God doing it or not. Murder is wrong according to God(even though he had a hard time throughout the Bible keeping his own commandment) and humans. If prayer makes me see that any differently then I would commit myself because murder is murder. I would not follow a man who thinks murder is OK, so why should I follow a God who does?? I find it hard to believe anyone would condone or make excuses for this kind of behavior. It kind of contradicts that God is loving and caring, don't you think??

For a GOD who is eternal, this life on earth is nothing but a vapour. From an eternity perspective, the 70-95 years we have on this earth is nothing, zip, zero, nada, zilch!
Even though the body dies, the spirit is eternal. God gave everyone life on earth and He has the Power to take it away. So what?

Credendovidis

Mar 27, 2008, 06:37 PM

For a GOD who is eternal, this life on earth is nothing but a vapour. From an eternity perspective, the 70-95 years we have on this earth is nothing, zip, zero, nada, zilch!

Actually that view makes a lot of sense, even though it is based on belief!
.
But what happened to the topic "Will a gay person go to heaven?"...
.
:rolleyes:

Onan

Mar 27, 2008, 08:32 PM

God gave everyone life on earth and He has the Power to take it away. So what?

We all have the power to take it away, doesn't make it right.

I created(helped at least) a son and daughter, and I could never even think about killing either of them. I really don't see how that's supposed to excuse mass murder.

Handyman2007

Mar 27, 2008, 09:58 PM

The way anyone interprets the Bible is IN THEIR head. You are a human being. If you leave this life at peace with yourself, you have reached "Heaven".

addaddadd

Mar 27, 2008, 10:10 PM

The way anyone interprets the Bible is IN THEIR head. You are a human being. If you leave this life at peace with yourself, you have reached "Heaven".
People must not interpret the bible, because the bible can intepret it selfs. You must search the bible to know the answer.

ordinaryguy

Mar 28, 2008, 06:01 AM

people must not interpret the bible, because the bible can intepret it selfs.
This kind of denial of one's own thought process always astounds me.

talaniman

Mar 28, 2008, 07:57 AM

Will a gay person go to heaven?
I honestly don't know about the after life, but I do know a personal relationship with the God of your understanding, can give you guidance, and direction, on becoming a good human being, and having a positive and productive life, while you are here on this EARTH. Because you are gay doesn't mean you are not human, or whether you're a good human, or a bad one, its completely your choice to make, no matter what others interpret, feel, or guess at. That's between you, and your God, that YOU understand. Let that very personal relationship, guide your thoughts, and actions, through this life, because in the end, none of us will be there, when you make your final peace, with The Creator of All things.

sassyT

Mar 28, 2008, 08:48 AM

We all have the power to take it away, doesn't make it right.

I created(helped at least) a son and daughter, and I could never even think about killing either of them. I really don't see how thats supposed to excuse mass murder.

No, you do not have the right to take the life of your children because you did not give them that life or create it. You do not have the power to give life. All you did was have sex with your husband or wife and consequently a biological process created a fetus. God gave man the ability to procreate but that does not mean you "created" your children. You are just a benefactor of a biological system that God Himself created.
So no, you do not have the right to take your children's life because you didn't create them. God did. And he has the right to end the life He gave us at His WILL. If you don't like that, too bad.

Onan

Mar 28, 2008, 09:21 PM

No, you do not have the right to take the life of your children

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I have read a lot of your posts and I know you are smarter than this. I didn't say I had the RIGHT to take life, I said I had the POWER to take life. We all do. No one has the RIGHT, murder is wrong. The power to take life is not reserved for the Gods. You only have to watch the evening news to know this is truth.

You do not have the power to give life.

The fact that my kids are here is more than enough to prove otherwise. If it weren't for my wife and I, my kids would not be here.

All you did was have sex with your husband or wife and consequently a biological process created a fetus.

Ahhhhhh yes, it was the greatest 30 seconds of my life... lol

Now I will be honest, I'm not much into science but I have read somewhere that humans have successfully cloned sheep? If it hasn't been done yet it won't be too long before a human is cloned. If that is the case we will have HUMANS creating LIFE. So whether it be physically or in a lab we have the power to create life.

God did. And he has the right to end the life He gave us at His WILL.

God has no more right to end my kids life than I do. As I said, no one has the right to murder. Murder is wrong. I'm really not understanding how you or anyone else for that matter does not understand murder is wrong.

ordinaryguy

Mar 29, 2008, 05:31 AM

I'm really not understanding how you or anyone else for that matter does not understand murder is wrong.
It's the religious equivalent of Richard Nixon's rationale: "If the President does it, it's not illegal".

sovaira

Mar 30, 2008, 11:30 AM

anyone's who accepts Jesus Christ as ones savior ,then he or she will surely go to heaven,if he or she was a good person and a good christian too.

Jesus loves all. And moreoevr its not someone's sin if someone is a born gay. But you see is anyone pretends to be one afterwards and knows in reality that he is a man,but just becomes a gay for FUN,then I think God will punish such a person.

I think the Bible scholars knows more ,however that wwas only a view.

KEEP PRAYING AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS !

Allheart

Mar 30, 2008, 11:50 AM

anyones who accepts Jesus Christ as ones savior ,then he or she will surely go to heaven,if he or she was a good person and a good christian too.

Jesus loves all.

!

Bless you Sovaira, bless you for your answer. You did it, You answered the question beautifully.

None of us will be appearing before God free of sin, not one of us, but like you said, as long as we accept Jesus as our saviour and love our Heavenly Father, and do our
Humanly best to symbolic of God's love, through words then actions, then yes, we will
Be in Our Heveanly Father's loving arms.

We are human, and the Father knows this.

Bless you again.

inthebox

Mar 30, 2008, 03:37 PM

sassyT

Mar 31, 2008, 10:04 AM

Brian:

I think if God sent His only Son, to suffer be crucified, and resurrect for a sinner like me, He certainly sent Him for you. :)

Today in church, John 3 - Jesus talks to Nicodemus, an elite of His chosen people. The next chapter, John 4, Jesus talks to an adulterous Samaritan woman. Think about that, Jesus came for all of us. Luke 5: 31-32 and 23: 39-43.

Yes I agree but once we have come to Know Christ and what he did for us, He says "Go and sin no more.."

So Yes he did die for Homosexuals too and homosexuality is no greater sin than fornication and adultery however once we know Christ we are to repent and turn away from sin.
So Brian, God loves you but he wants you to obey his word and turn away from homosexuality because it is sin.

sassyT

Mar 31, 2008, 10:46 AM

[
QUOTE=Onan]

I have read a lot of your posts and I know you are smarter than this. I didn't say I had the RIGHT to take life, I said I had the POWER to take life. We all do. No one has the RIGHT, murder is wrong. The power to take life is not reserved for the Gods. You only have to watch the evening news to know this is truth.

I was just trying to emphasise that just because you have the power to take life does not mean you have the right to do so. God does have the right to take life that He freely gave to us.

The fact that my kids are here is more than enough to prove otherwise. If it weren't for my wife and I, my kids would not be here.

Yes and it is because of the ability that God gave you. A biological process that God put in place allows you to procreate. But that does not mean you have the "created" them. Your wife Just gave birth to what God created using your sperm and her egg.

Now I will be honest, I'm not much into science but I have read somewhere that humans have successfully cloned sheep? If it hasn't been done yet it won't be too long before a human is cloned. If that is the case we will have HUMANS creating LIFE. So whether it be physically or in a lab we have the power to create life.

Well lets not jump the gun, no humans have been cloned yet but even so, All they would be doing is taking cells from a human the God created and duplicating them.

God has no more right to end my kids life than I do. As I said, no one has the right to murder. Murder is wrong. I'm really not understanding how you or anyone else for that matter does not understand murder is wrong.

You can't compare yourself to God, who are you?. lol God created everything, he gave us the life we have and has the right take it from us at His will.

talaniman

Mar 31, 2008, 10:58 AM

So Brian, God loves you but he wants you to obey his word and turn away from homosexuality because it is sin.
I don't think who we are attracted to can be considered a sin. Our actions are what makes us sinners. Mans law says he can not marry, so he cannot be afforded the same outlets for his love, as the rest of the world. Is that a sin, or is that man putting his restrictions on man? Not to argue, but to understand how we can separate sin, and make it wrong to be as God has made us?

sassyT

Mar 31, 2008, 11:11 AM

I don't think who we are attracted to can be considered a sin. Our actions are what makes us sinners. Mans law says he can not marry, so he cannot be afforded the same outlets for his love, as the rest of the world. Is that a sin, or is that man putting his restrictions on man? Not to argue, but to understand how we can seperate sin, and make it wrong to be as God has made us?

the bible makes it crystal clear that Homosexuality is sin. So he can ask God to deliver him from that sin so that he may be in right standing with God.

Onan

Apr 1, 2008, 07:16 PM

Hey Sassy,

I just popped in to let you know I did read your response. I see neither of us have budged... lol

4ndr3w5

Apr 1, 2008, 09:24 PM

Allheart

Apr 2, 2008, 12:54 AM

Brian,

Just know that God loves us all. And each and everyone of us is His child, whom He loves.
We all are human and you just let God be the judge of your heart.

Pray to Him for peace and for His love to always be in your heart, so you can show and share it to others.

You ask an incredible question, which quite honestly, none of us truly know, accept God.

We are going to be judged as individuals, not as groups. Our Heavenly Father has more then enough love for us to do that for us.

So Brian, you are an individual, who loves God and may His Light continue to guide you.

Brian, I am wondering, how do you now feel about things?

I do have great care for you in my heart as I am sure all who have responded to.

Bless you Brian, now and always,

Allheart

Guest

Apr 5, 2008, 10:52 AM

As a gay man and Christian I was told by alot of people that homosexuals will not go to heaven but will go to hell instead. I know that alot of older people believe this and I think that is not true because god love everyone. He would not make homosexuals unless there is a chance of them going to heaven. My question is where (book and chapters) does it say that homosexuals will go to hell or where (book and chapter again) does it said that they will not or does it not say neither?

You must bear in mind that Jesus spoke literally nothing about being gay or lesbian. An all-knowing King of Peace and Love obviously knows the true merits of heartfelt Love. Nevertheless, it is Promiscuity that is the sin to avoid in both sexual orientations and the one that can haunt a person until it is vanquished from their life.

For a clearer perspective of this issue, the following websites present a fairly non-biased view.
Note: On the second website, you might want to read "j. Birch" comments also!

Would Jesus Discriminate? - David loved Jonathan more than women (http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com/biblical_evidence/david_jonathan.html)

Pengiuns - Page 2 - Fencing.Net Discussion (http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread9980-2.html)

talaniman

Apr 5, 2008, 11:44 PM

Good post Scotty, but the personal attacks on Fr. Chuck, were not necessary, as we all have our opinions. I may not agree with him, or others, but try not to be personal about it. You make some very good points I do agree with though, as a personal relationship with the God you understand, is as important as life, and the choices we make are our own decisions. I also agree that the Bible (Qur'an, Torah, or any other religious book), was written by man, therefore not only open to interpretation, but flawed, by the same men who wrote it. They had good intentions, but had to accede to the times they were in.

talaniman

Apr 5, 2008, 11:56 PM

I also agree that homosexuality is not a sin, but that promiscuity, may not be a wise course, or lifestyle, and that has nothing to do with what gender we prefer.

Allheart

Apr 6, 2008, 12:01 AM

Scott,

In regards to Father Chuck, that is his name due to the fact he is of the clergy and is to be respected by referring to him in that way. You are not aware of Father Chuck's background, and perhaps it would have been best to ask Fr. Chuck, who I respect immenseley.

I am of the Catholic faith, and we do indeed call our priest, "Father".

As you say, the bible was written by man and we all are fallable.

As you say, the bible was written by man, known to error.

Edit: Here is the Catholic's repsonse to the utilization of the title "Father".

Call No Man "Father"? (http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp)

addaddadd

Apr 14, 2008, 09:51 PM

I have asked this question before but here we go again. Where in the bible does it talk about homosexuals? Some of you have told me that there are homosexuals in the bible like David and Johnathan. Where in the bible are they and why do some people say that homosexual is against god when it is in the bible? Can anyone answer that?Dear Brian,
Homosexuals is not against God it is a part of God Creation. God does not stop creating in Genesis He Continue to create the bible says" But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." (John5:17) God continue to work and one of His work is Homosexual. Lets read it to bible, Exodo 4:11 "and the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?" If God created the deaf, even the homasexual created by God.

Nicole82

Apr 15, 2008, 07:48 PM

It's a sin; the bible story Sodom and Gomorrah. Ask GOD for wisdom knowledge and understanding. Being deaf dumb or blind isn't a sin. GOD loves us all but no sin will enter The Kingdom of Heaven

talaniman

Apr 16, 2008, 04:47 AM

(https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/nicole82.html)Nicole82 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/nicole82.html) disagrees: it is a sin;its in the bible Sodom and Gomorrah
(https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/nicole82.html)
God made homosexuals when he made man, how is that a sin?

inthebox

Apr 16, 2008, 07:09 AM

God made man. Man, Adam, made a free choice to rebel against God and sin.
We are all sinners, straight or gay.

Nicole82

Apr 16, 2008, 09:55 AM

Scotty... Yes we are in the 20th century but since then when did GOD say its was okay to be gay? When did he change his word. Im not trying to be rude or anything; just asking a question.

talaniman

Apr 16, 2008, 10:01 AM

when did GOD say its was okay to be gay? When did he change his word.
Where does it say that in your bible? Just curious. I thought your bible addressed sinful conduct, and behavior, but being gay doesn't have to involve either, does it? I ask again, didn't God create homosexuals, when he created all men?

tomterm8

Apr 18, 2008, 01:43 PM

Homosexuality is against the law of god.

However, so is eating pigs, having a bank account, cutting your hair and doing any work on Saturday.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, that phase of existence is over, and it is up to Jesus who goes to heaven or not... and Jesus has promised that if anyone asks him to come into their life, he will.

sassyT

Apr 18, 2008, 01:55 PM

Homosexuality is against the law of god.

However, so is eating pigs, having a bank account, cutting your hair and doing any work on saturday.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, that phase of existance is over, and it is up to Jesus who goes to heaven or not... and Jesus has promised that if anyone asks him to come into their life, he will.

But homosexuality is not just an old testament law it is also said to be an abomination in the New Testament.

Fr_Chuck

Apr 18, 2008, 02:02 PM

Very often from the earliest times man wants to do the evil or at times the pleasure of their hearts and minds. So as it is with homosexual activity, and it is not uncommom for those that want to do it, to justify it with society, with trying to change the word of God, by denying the word of God.

And so as we go into this new century, man has rewritten in many places mans law so that there is less moral values in them, but this does not change the laws of God, only mans enforement of them.

And yes, they want to act like nothing is sin any longer and everyone will be saved no matter what they do.

The issue is yes if Jesus came today, he would talk with, eat with and walk with homosexuals, drunks, hookers and more. He would tell them of his love, he would cure many of their various sins and he would also forgive them and tell them to go and sin no more, as he did those of his time. With that said that is the part that most don't want to quote and remember is that he wants the sinner he forgives to stop their sin and repent.

tomterm8

Apr 18, 2008, 02:27 PM

A heck of a lot of that depends on which variety of christianity you believe. The vast majority of verses in the old testament which argue against homosexuality are related to paul.

I belong to the church of England, whicn ordanes women to the priesthood, which is also apparently against the law of god, as expressed by Paul.

Very many verses of the bible speak directly against judging other people, condeming other people, or naming unclean what God has made clean. I do not believe it is consistent with a loving god to damn people for being what he made them. Further, it would render Jesus a liar to do so, for he promised the kingdom of heaven to men and women, whatever their weakness or sin, as long as they ask him for forgiveness, This is much more a central tenant of my christian faith, than whether Paul was right or wrong over homosexuality to my mind.

JudyKayTee

Apr 20, 2008, 02:58 PM

the bible makes it crystal clear that Homosexuality is sin. So he can ask God to deliver him from that sin so that he may be in right standing with God.

I should have paid better attention, I admit, during religious instructions but I thought we were taught that the sin was ACTING on homosexuality, not BEING homosexual.

Of course, at one time if you ate meat on Friday and then dropped dead you had to be buried outside the cemetery fence in the Protestant section so who knows -

?

sassyT

Apr 21, 2008, 07:47 AM

I should have paid better attention, I admit, during religious instructions but I thought we were taught that the sin was ACTING on homosexuality, not BEING homosexual.

Of course, at one time if you ate meat on Friday and then dropped dead you had to be buried outside the cemetery fence in the Protestant section so who knows -

??

Homosexuality, is listed as one of the sin in the New Testament. It is not a 'special' sin it is just like any other. It is listed among drunkenness, fornication, Pride, adultery etc in Romans.

JudyKayTee

Apr 21, 2008, 07:50 AM

Homosexuality, is listed as one of the sin in the New Testament. It is not a 'special' sin it is just like any other. It is listed among drunkeness, fornication, Pride, adultery etc in Romans.

So you are saying that according to the New Testament it is a sin to BE homosexual, whether you act on it or not?

And which version of the New Testament?

talaniman

Apr 21, 2008, 08:40 AM

greenclover

Apr 21, 2008, 09:07 AM

boredINmind

Apr 21, 2008, 11:41 PM

Totally in sync with you on this one. Sin is in the eye of the beholder, and religion is obviously something that should not be used to judge someone. Judging, in the Biblem is defined as a sin.

boredINmind

Apr 21, 2008, 11:43 PM

Maybe you should do a refresher on the Bible.

sassyT

Apr 22, 2008, 02:24 PM

So you are saying that according to the New Testament it is a sin to BE homosexual, whether you act on it or not?

And which version of the New Testament?

If we apply what Jesus said about adultary then, Yes. Jesus if you just look at another woman and lust after her, then you have already committed adultary. So I assume the same applies to a gay guy who does not have sex with another man but looks lustfully at another man

sassyT

Apr 22, 2008, 02:38 PM

Yes of course you will go to heaven, you are gay and that is the way you were born you must be proud and not care what other people think or say because they are just close minded. Remember the Bible was written by man not God. And homosexuality has been around forever, it was part of normal life in ancient Greek and Roman times. Hope this helps and God bless!!

Homosexuality is definitely a sin according to the BIBLE. So it's either you believe the Bible as absolute truth or you don't. There are no Gray areas.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

NeedKarma

Apr 22, 2008, 03:29 PM

Homosexuality is definitely a sin according to the BIBLE. So it's either you believe the Bible as absolute truth or you don't. There are no Gray areas.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.Weird, looks like you added words:
1 Corinthians, Chapter 6 (King James Bible) - Christian Answers® WebBible™ (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/1cor6.html)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/kingdomofgod.html)? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/drunk.html), nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Nope, no homosexuals there. Unless you take into account all the various translations and interpretations:
HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT: CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL VIEWS (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm)
Which is true for a great deal of the bible so one could twist things to suit their agenda.

Donna Mae

Apr 22, 2008, 04:47 PM

1 Corinthians 6:9 (NIV)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

(KJV) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Webster's Dictionary
effeminate- Having the qualities generally attributed to women, as weakness, timidity, delicacy, etc.; unmanly; not virile

As the Bible says it is not just the homosexual who will not inherit the kingdom of God, anyone who sins and does not repent and turn away from their sin will not inherit the kingdom of God.

jdljessie

Apr 22, 2008, 04:49 PM

Ok listen I have a lot of gay friends and yes you will go to heaven God does not judge people because of what they like

Fr_Chuck

Apr 22, 2008, 04:57 PM

Well yes, God does judge people, that is actually what he does do.
And he will look at first who has accepted his Son as their Saviour and Lord. Those that have accepted Christ will be saved, those that have not will not be.

There are a lot of sins, and sex with the same gender is one of those sins. It is no better or worst than other sins, but it is a sin.
We are all sinners the main thing we have to look for first is are we saved.
After that, the saved person would then try and work hard on living their lives like Christ would have wanted.

So can they be saved, yes, but very few will go to heaven, and that depends on your faith in Christ.

scottyv

Apr 22, 2008, 06:35 PM

Jdlseslie

The good father seems to part ways with Paul of Tarsus as he [Paul]believed that nothing can separate a person from the love of God, not even sin (shhhh, don't tell anyone). In Corinthians Paul says that all things are permissible, even though they may not be beneficial or constructive, yet what is important is that we must live for the betterment of others. Either God sent Jesus for the remission of sins or he didn't. Either Jesus paid that price or he didn't. According to the Christian faith you are saved by grace, not yours but gods, to make that conditional upon anything else is bad theology. There is no "if " in grace. God saves by grace only if you accept Jesus?

I doubt your gay friends have to worry about much as long as they are not going around hurting people. Don't buy into religious people telling you what sin is and that you are going to hell. That's how they make their money and friends, its all very silly, like man could ever know the mind of God, its pure hubris.

Peace friend,

Scotty

scottyv

Apr 22, 2008, 06:38 PM

Very few are going to heaven and it depends on acceptance of Jesus? I thought it depended on Gods grace. Hmmmn interesting theology you got going there.

scottyv

Apr 22, 2008, 06:42 PM

Doesn't it also say in 1st Cor. That everything is permissible? I guess its just depends what you want to focus on huh? Didn't Paul also say nothing can separate you from the love of God? Interesting confliction.

Fr_Chuck

Apr 22, 2008, 06:42 PM

Sadly one has to include the entire bibile, which incluldes Jesus telling us to repent from our sin. And if you take the entire New Testement as a whole, one sees that a person who is saved has to have accepted Christ,
they are not saved if they don't, that is the entire theme of the NT.

As for sin, We know that to accept christ we have to repent of our sin, this also is the very words of Christ. So as long as they have admitted their sin, have tried hard to turn from it, and accepted Christ.

But that is the only real issue if they accepted Christ, after they accepted Christ, then it is up to God to convict their hearts to show them the evil of their sin and to help them reprent of them.

ordinaryguy

Apr 22, 2008, 06:54 PM

(KJV) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Webster's Dictionary
effeminate- Having the qualities generally attributed to women, as weakness, timidity, delicacy, etc.; unmanly; not virile
So is it only MALE homosexuality that's a sin? Sounds to me like lesbians are off the hook.

Also, what does it mean, "abusers of themselves with mankind"?

talaniman

Apr 23, 2008, 07:42 AM

Sorry, I can't in good consciousness, put the words of ancient man as absolute truth. His prejudices are clear through his writings, and only through a personal relationship with the Creator, can we rise above this controversy, and know what the truth really is. Then we do not have to interpret, guess, or believe, what God wants you to do. You will know. Of course a gay person will know the love of a living God, and know what is expected of him, to be a good human.

Smoked

Apr 23, 2008, 08:15 AM

OK, so I have read a lot of different opinions about this topic and I can only comment on what the bible says. I mention the bible because it's the only authority you can use to define or explain this topic. I would like to mention you can have an opinion freely but the only authority you can refer to about god (in reference to Christianity)is the bible.

Countless times in the bible from Leviticus, Corinthians, Timothy, Romans, does the bible mention sins of the flesh as they refer to Homosexuality. Each time this is mentioned as a sin pure and simple.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality

It doesn't say hate gays, it doesn't say hate yourself for having those feelings, it doesn't say, it doesn't say.. ect... ect.. If you are a Christian your bible is your resource for such questions. If you are a Christian you know that there is one way to the father. That is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. If you have Christ then your life will be changed and you will see that change evident in all that you do. If you truly wanted to know the answer of this question then the resource you have available to you is the bible. It's the only tool at your disposal regarding the topic of salvation.

NeedKarma

Apr 23, 2008, 08:44 AM

I think part of the problem lies in the many translations and interpretations of that piece of scripture; we have seen many in this threads from different posters.

Smoked

Apr 23, 2008, 08:48 AM

If you would like, when I get home I will post you the Greek and Hebrew translations. If you are pulling from most bibles the translations are actually pretty solid.(exceptions always)

NeedKarma

Apr 23, 2008, 09:02 AM

No thank you. I have no problems with gay people.

Smoked

Apr 23, 2008, 09:12 AM

No thank you. I have no problems with gay people.

Ok this is kind of low NK.. I also have no problem with gay people. Just stating the facts. Does that mean that Christians hate gays? No.. and that is a very bad misrepresentation of what was said. People, ALL PEOPLE are sinners... Don't paint this topic as a "Christians hate gays". The questions was valid and the valid resource on the topic is the bible. Bottom line.

By the way, Christians, myself, and anyone I know don't hate a person for being gay. On the contrary, I pray for everyone's salvation. Even yours.

NeedKarma

Apr 23, 2008, 09:18 AM

Smoked

Apr 23, 2008, 09:42 AM

I was speaking for myself, not all christians. You made quite a leap there.
You'll notice that some posters in this thread do indeed find homosexuals repulsive.
Oh, I require no salvation but thank you.

Well, then I will be the first to apologize if my statements took it beyond your implication. I have noticed that some of the posters do indeed find homosexuals repulsive and I only hope people don't take those twisted views as a representation of what a Christian is.

Hating someone for being a sinner is futile. We all are sinners. Embrace those who are looking for answers no matter who they are. Give them the truth and let them decide. That is all I can do.

talaniman

Apr 23, 2008, 10:24 AM

Why can't any one admit that a gay person, has the same chance at this so called salvation, as any other person, no matter the sin. All this tip toeing, and dancing around, serves no purpose, but to expose personal shortcoming which, have nothing to do with the subject, but it does show that as many people who read a particular bible, can come back with as many translations, or interpretations. We humans are flawed, and the things we say, and do, and write, are flawed also. Not just Christians, but all the other religions, that seek to guide man, fall to the same scrutiny.

scottyv

Apr 23, 2008, 10:59 AM

Curious, what makes the bible authoritative?

scottyv

Apr 23, 2008, 11:14 AM

Now, now Chucky you can't just go and change tactics on us like that. You have been telling us what God says and what he means, what he wants and what he is going to do for some time now. Now you want to include the whole bible? If we do that things will get uncomfortable. I mean really, what you are suggesting makes a lot of sense here, provide a context in which to interpret the text right? Well that’s just silliness, but I will try.

Considering that you are in a themeatic mood, how about we use “Jesus and Open Table Fellowship” as a theme? Throughout all of the gospels you can read how Jesus ate with sinners while the Pharisees sat back and pointed to their sins of the people. Jesus ate with everybody, he was unconditional in his acceptance of people regardless of their sin, the writers of the gospels make this very clear. Never in these situations do you hear from the apostles nor Jesus, that his acceptance is based on the recognition of sin, and Jesus lordship. In fact the apostles seem a little lost for words when they are confronted by the Pharisees. Sometimes they even have to get clarification on what Jesus was doing, which means not even they understood him sometimes. The reason It was confusing was because Jesus was not concerned with sin, the same way that religious people of his time was.

Let’s not stop there lets use the theme of his “Teachings”. Pound for pound, word for word, the teachings of Jesus center around what the kingdom of heaven is like and instruction on how we are to treat with one another in order to achieve salvation which seems to be this the kingdom of Heaven, he does not focus on sin, unless it was for the forgiveness of sins, now Jesus was really big on forgiving people their sins, and once again it was not contingent on their acceptance of him.

I will never understand why religious people like yourself make this so difficult, because Jesus certainly doesn’t.

To love God and to love others is… to accept Christ, let me put it another way. To love one another is to love God and accept Christ, or yet again, to love Christ is to love one another in God. It is that simple. There is no special ritual; there is no need for declaration or special ceremony. There is no right doctrine or right faith, there is no need for special knowledge or study of the bible (not that it hurts to study it). One does not have to believe that Jesus died for their sins, or that he was born of a virgin, or rose from the dead. All they have to do is make the connection between themselves, God, and the teachings of Jesus.

Repentance isn’t the act of acknowledging sin (the bad things one does i.e. having sex with same gender, promiscuity, stealing etc…). People know when they are doing something wrong. The act of repentance is turning from a life dictated by a fallen world and embracing life as God intended, namely in relationship with one another (hence all those pesky, love one another sayings Jesus was so fond of repeating).

Salvation doesn’t occur when they stop these sinning…regardless of their motivations (including Christ). Repentance is demonstrated relationally. Repentance is achieved when an individual makes the realization that God wants his creation to live justly, being merciful toward each other as God intended and lives their lives in such a manner. Sadly this is counterintuitive to most orthodoxy.

Consider some of the few times Jesus say’s a person is saved:

Zacchaeus received salvation, according to Jesus upon repentance for how he treated his fellow man and his attempts at reconciling with them. Notice there was no mention of accepting his death on the cross for the remission of sins (an important point to exclude were you a NT writer.)

Then there is the sinful woman who anoints Jesus at the house of the Pharisee. She is saved by her loving action toward him, there is no requisite. Hoever, one has to wonder how Jesus had impacted her. He certainly didn’t accept her upon the condition of her repentance of sin, as that never occurred, in fact that was the Pharisees teaching repentance of sin and becoming pure. If you pay attention closely it was the acknowledgment of her sinfulness fthat the Pharisees wanted from Jesus and he didn't. Jesus accepts despite the sin and the writer makes this abundantly clear.

As for the “entire theme” of the NT, if there is one, it is certainly NOT the acceptance of Christ. Were I to try to sum it up I would say it was RECONCILIATION more specifically, reconciliation with God, and likewise, our fellow man. You may see this as a semantic issue, I do not. Sin, repentance, acceptance of Christ are all sub themes but they are not the main issues, they are tools in which to craft reconciliation.

As for accepting Christ as a theme... it is one nstructs the religious. Being religious themselves, the apostles are going to tell us to do it the way they did it, or at least the way they understood Jesus which we know is flawed seeing as they bailed at his arrest and crucifixion. Much of the text (especially the NT) is written as treatise of what it means to be a Christian. They are pulling away from their traditions. That is to suggest that it was written as an explanation, a declaration of religious independence if you will. In many ways these things do not apply to the average reader as the tradition has been established.

As for sin, not only is it not clearly defined, but it is ambiguous. The religious shouldn’t tell people what they are going to be judged for. They shouldn’t tell people what is sinful and what is not as a rule of thumb, after all there’s many a slip between the cup and the lip. Don’t get me wrong, I think we can all agree with the big top 10, Thou Shalt nots... Just as we can certainly agree with Jesus’ teaching that all of the Law and prophets can be summed up in loving God and ones neighbors. The religious have not changed much if you ask me. When given a chance to tell people the message of Jesus, they like to point to the sin, just like the Pharisees.

For what its worth,

Scotty

Smoked

Apr 23, 2008, 11:59 AM

Considering that you are in a themeatic mood, how about we use “Jesus and Open Table Fellowship” as a theme? Throughout all of the gospels you can read how Jesus ate with sinners while the Pharisees sat back and pointed to their sins of the people. Jesus ate with everybody, he was unconditional in his acceptance of people regardless of their sin, the writers of the gospels make this very clear. Never in these situations do you hear from the apostles nor Jesus, that his acceptance is based on the recognition of sin, and Jesus lordship. In fact the apostles seem a little lost for words when they are confronted by the Pharisees. Sometimes they even have to get clarification on what Jesus was doing, which means not even they understood him sometimes. The reason It was confusing was because Jesus was not concerned with sin, the same way that religious people of his time was.

Your point here is valid but I believe to be a little off. Jesus was very much concerned with sin. Not to point out sin like "hey you sinner you suck", but to educate that people under the law. You could not live up to the laws expectations. This was, like I believe you allude to later in not so many words, a religious revolution of sorts. What you need to understand is that Jesus came to pay the price for our sin. The same sin that everyone in that time was concerned about was the purpose of that sacrifice.

Let’s not stop there lets use the theme of his “Teachings”. Pound for pound, word for word, the teachings of Jesus center around what the kingdom of heaven is like and instruction on how we are to treat with one another in order to achieve salvation which seems to be this the kingdom of Heaven, he does not focus on sin, unless it was for the forgiveness of sins, now Jesus was really big on forgiving people their sins, and once again it was not contingent on their acceptance of him.

Again you are on the right track. Jesus spoke a lot about the kingdom of heaven. But he also gives us very specific direction on how to get into heaven.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you would like more quotes I can provide.

I will never understand why religious people like yourself make this so difficult, because Jesus certainly doesn’t.

A perfect example of why we strive to be as Christlike as possible. Do we fail? Everyday..

One does not have to believe that Jesus died for their sins, or that he was born of a virgin, or rose from the dead.

I do not agree, based on what the bible says. We can disagree and that is OK. But if Jesus didn't die for our sins then that means we are still under the law. If we are under the law then none of us are going to heaven.

Repentance isn’t the act of acknowledging sin (the bad things one does i.e. having sex with same gender, promiscuity, stealing etc…). People know when they are doing something wrong. The act of repentance is turning from a life dictated by a fallen world and embracing life as God intended, namely in relationship with one another (hence all those pesky, love one another sayings Jesus was so fond of repeating).

Here is the flaw here.. You suggest that people should continue to do the same bad things (sin)and then turn around and say they are Christlike? If I argued this you would point and say "oh the hypocrisy". Countless times the bible outlines sin. Can it be forgiven? Oh you bet. You should forgive sin again and again. You see, its not about absolutism. We are all sinners. It is about striving to be Christlike. Christ was without sin.

Salvation doesn’t occur when they stop these sinning…regardless of their motivations (including Christ). Repentance is demonstrated relationally. Repentance is achieved when an individual makes the realization that God wants his creation to live justly, being merciful toward each other as God intended and lives their lives in such a manner. Sadly this is counterintuitive to most orthodoxy.

Only one way to salvation-
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

What does that mean though? Well, Jesus taught forgiveness, he also taught they we had to be shepherds of men. Guide them to the truth, but at the very least let them know. etc.. ect.. I won't beat up the point because you're a smart guy and I think you get it.

Zacchaeus received salvation, according to Jesus upon repentance for how he treated his fellow man and his attempts at reconciling with them. Notice there was no mention of accepting his death on the cross for the remission of sins (an important point to exclude were you a NT writer.)

according to Jesus? Are you sure about that one? The "Lord" was not Jesus in that sense. But that is another debate that I am sure you will be coming to shortly. Old testament "lord"
spoke directly to whom ever he wanted. He granted salvation. Still this was all under the "law". Jesus sacrificed himself so that you do no have to live under the law. Well I already said that didn't I.

I would continue to post on each paragraph but the points are starting to run together. I think you get it so far.

talaniman

Apr 23, 2008, 12:50 PM

Guide them to the truth, but at the very least let them know.
Lead by example comes to mind.

Smoked

Apr 25, 2008, 07:47 AM

sGt HarDKorE

Apr 25, 2008, 12:13 PM

Here is my opinion, just like you should have one. The bible is a book, a great one, but still a book. God did not write it, people wrote it for him. So even back then one may have misinterpreted it. Also, god gave me free choice and a mind of my own. And I know what's right and wrong, would god truly send people to hell for being gay? NO. The bible also says do not eat anything that walks on this earth, and such. People whine about how bad being gay is when they themselves are hypocrites. No where in the bible does it say that being gay is worse than being a cold bloooded killer or any other sin. Here are some sins you have broken.

GE 3:16, CO 11:3-9, EP 5:22-24, CN 3:18, TS 2:5, 1PE 3:1-6 The husband is to rule over his wife. Wives are to be subject to their husbands even when the husband is disobedient to God. Man is the image and glory of God, while woman is the glory of man. Man was not created for woman but woman for man.

GE 17:14 A child is to be punished when his parents neglect to have him circumcised.

EX 21:17, LE 20:9, DT 21:18-21 A child who curses his parent(s) is to be put to death. A stubborn and/or rebellious child is to be put to death.

EX 22:29 Firstborn children should be sacrificed to the Lord.

LE 11:7, DT 14:8 Eating pork is prohibited.

LE 11:10 Eating shellfish is prohibited.

LE 19:27 The edges of a beard should not be clipped.

LE 19:28 Tattoos and the like are prohibited.

LE 20:18 If a man has sex relations with a woman who is menstruating, both shall be excommunicated from their people.

LE 21:17-23 A priest (or descendant of Aaron) with crushed testicles (or almost any other physical deformity) is not to be allowed near the sanctuary.

DT 13:6-10 A man is required to slay his friends and members of his own family who are guilty of worshipping another god.

DT 22:28-29 A virgin who is raped must marry her rapist (if they are "found").

DT 25:5-10 A man has an obligation to produce a child for his widowed sister-in-law.

Need I go on? The bible has so many outdated things, that if we had to follow them all, we would all be hell right now. There are so many more of these dumb things. That is why I follow my heart and, to me god is a cool person, he is a loving person, a person who understands me. And being gay is just another sin. Oh yeah don't call your father "father" because that's a sin...

MT 23:9 Do not call any man on earth "father."

OH YEAH YOU BETTER BE PERFECT!

MT 5:48 Be perfect.

MT 6:6 Pray in private.

I believe in god, and I'm a catholic. Gays don't go to hell unless its for their criminal actions. In the older days, being black was considered a sin. All things pass. Once the old people of today die, this problem will be resolved and a new one will arise. It's the cycle of religion.

OH YEAH HAPPY "VOW FOR SILENCE DAY!" A national day that many students participate in if they want to, for all ages, where they do not speak for a whole day reminding those that killing a homosexual is wrong. Whether you agree with gay's, I hope you agree that killing is wrong. You don't have to be gay to have taken part of it, just support it. Everyone who wanted to could have gotten a cool card that is well written and explains what you are doing. Here is some more info, DAY of SILENCE: News (http://www.dayofsilence.org/content/truth.html). I did it and you get some pretty cool responses. It was started because a 8th grader was killed by a classmate for being gay. It amazed me however, that some of my fellow catholic classmates refused to particapate in fighting bulling and killing in schools because the child is gay.

JudyKayTee

Apr 25, 2008, 01:09 PM

[QUOTE=sGt HarDKorE]here is my opinion, just like you should have one. The bible is a book, a great one, but still a book. God did not write it, people wrote it for him. So even back then one may have misinterpreted it. Also, god gave me free choice and a mind of my own. And I know what's right and wrong, would god truly send people to hell for being gay? NO. The bible also says do not eat anything that walks on this earth, and such. People whine about how bad being gay is when they themselves are hypocrites. No where in the bible does it say that being gay is worse than being a cold blooded killer or any other sin. Here are some sins you have broken.

EX 22:29 Firstborn children should be sacrificed to the Lord.

LE 11:7, DT 14:8 Eating pork is prohibited.

LE 11:10 Eating shellfish is prohibited.

LE 19:27 The edges of a beard should not be clipped.

LE 19:28 Tattoos and the like are prohibited.

LE 20:18 If a man has sex relations with a woman who is menstruating, both shall be excommunicated from their people.

I cut out the part of your post I am not addressing but did not change the above in any way.

Some people still do respect these tenants of faith concerning pork, shellfish, beards, tattoos and menstruating women - although the parties are no longer excommunicated, just shunned (in theory). The "firstborn children" refers to the firstborn becoming a member of the clergy, not literally putting them to death in a sacrificial way. Old way for Irish Catholics was for the first born to become a Priest; same in Jewish families, first born "destined" to be a Rabbi.

Please do not assume everyone is Christian; please do not assume "Here are some sins you have broken." No problem if you speak for yourself but please do not speak for others.

scottyv

Apr 25, 2008, 01:40 PM

Strange how Christians are all about loving one another until they sin huh?

Fr_Chuck

Apr 25, 2008, 06:32 PM

Of course not that you really care and will have some opinon of, many of the rules, esp those of eating were changed latter in the bible.

Also one has to not confuse the laws of the Hewbrew nation needed to control their society with every rule that God set forth. But one that knows the bible that well knows it anyone but would prefer to ignore those issues

talaniman

Apr 25, 2008, 07:13 PM

As a non Christian, I am glad not to be in a position of worrying about salvation, because as a human, it's a handful to just live this life, as best a human can, and enjoy the choice that has been granted all humans. Not just Christianity, I would surely have the same problem being led as a sheep, through any artificial trappings man calls religion. Though we can all stand to learn and improve, we have to pick our way through this life and be accountable for our own actions as saying that's what god said, is no excuse for bad human behavior and I hope the OP, realizes that when he exercises his own choices, in this human world.

Fr_Chuck

Apr 25, 2008, 07:20 PM

As a non Christian, I am glad not to be in a position of worrying about salvation, because as a human, its a handful to just live this life, as best a human can, and enjoy the choice that has been granted all humans. Not just Christianity, I would surely have the same problem being led as a sheep, thru any artificial trappings man calls religion. Though we can all stand to learn and improve, we have to pick our way thru this life and be accountable for our own actions as saying that's what god said, is no excuse for bad human behavior and I hope the OP, realizes that when he exercises his own choices, in this human world.

You have it completely backward, as a Christian I don't have to worry about salvation, because I am saved. It is those who are not saved that have all the worry. And to live life as a sheep moving with no goal, purpose or thought of more to come. But yes this is a human world, and the christian is merely a vistor here passing though to get to their home in the world and life to come.

sGt HarDKorE

Apr 25, 2008, 08:30 PM

Pope benedict also clearly states that you don't have to believe in god to go to heaven. Just do good deeds

"Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith," says Benedict XVI.

Fr_Chuck

Apr 25, 2008, 08:34 PM

pope benedict also clearly states that you dont have to believe in god to go to heaven. Just do good deeds

"Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith," says Benedict XVI.

Then he is not teaching bibical truths, and in fact not even teaching catholic teachings, but as a man he can say things that are wrong.
** assuming you do have the quote in context

sGt HarDKorE

Apr 25, 2008, 08:45 PM

Here is my proof, ZENIT - Commentary on Psalm 136(137) (http://www.zenit.org/article-14703?l=english). And not saying your wrong in any way, and I'm not saying I'm right, I just want to argue the other side. And although you say he is teaching wrong, I'm sorry but he's the next best thing compared to god. And if he says its OK, I'm going with him.

Fr_Chuck

Apr 25, 2008, 08:57 PM

Quote from link "He sees their service and will show them the other city, toward which they must really long and orient all their effort" ("

So if they do live this good live, God will show them the right city (jersulem) an they must long and oreint their effort, is also a requirement, it sounds like God will see the person doing good and have the truth of God shown to them and give them the chance to turn to him

But no I do not give 10 cents to any mans commits if they go against the dirct word of jesus in the bible. If this was his intent that non christians would be saved, he also did not make this as a infallible statement as Pope and to be honest it sounds more politicaly made than religiously made. Even the Pope has to answer to God, and he as all ministers are held to a higher standard not to teach wrongly.

talaniman

Apr 25, 2008, 09:12 PM

You have it completely backward, as a Christian I don't have to worry about salvation, because I am saved.
Then neither us is worried.
It is those who are not saved that have all the worry.
It depends on what it is your worried about, I'm busy here and will see what happens on the next level, or not. That not my WORRY!
And to live life as a sheep moving with no goal, purpose or thought of more to come. But yes this is a human world,
My business is here, and now. That is my purpose.
And the Christian is merely a visitor here passing though to get to their home in the world and life to come.
Hope you get home. (But this is the last time I correct your spelling)

Fr_Chuck

Apr 25, 2008, 09:19 PM

You are really correcting your own spelling you know, we got reported by a user that we are the same person.

That must be one split person??

I can't hardly see the screen, and the hunt and peck, spelling is the last of my worries ( not a listed sin in the bible *LOL)

talaniman

Apr 25, 2008, 09:28 PM

I can't hardly see the screen, and the hunt and peck, spelling is the last of my worries ( not a listed sin in the bible *LOL)

I guess we can have a time out to share a good laugh, LOL!

JudyKayTee

Apr 26, 2008, 01:25 PM

Here is my proof, ZENIT - Commentary on Psalm 136(137) (http://www.zenit.org/article-14703?l=english). And not saying your wrong in any way, and im not saying im right, i just want to argue the other side. And altough you say he is teaching wrong, im sorry but hes the next best thing compared to god. And if he says its ok, im going with him.

I found explaining Catholic beliefs and the Pope was very, very difficult during his visit here. Explaining Saints and statutes and rosary beads is hard enough. I don't think he's the next best thing to God - is that Catholic teaching?

So what was with his red hat and matching shoes?

scottyv

Apr 26, 2008, 01:33 PM

scottyv : Curious, what makes the bible authoritative?

I believe the bible to have arisen from authority, the bible has influence, the bible is excepted by most authorities in the field, should I go on?

By all means go on... at least until you actually come up with an answer worthy of consideration.

You "believe" the bible to have arisen from authority? You know Hitler "believed" the Jews were responsible for the downfall of Germany. Hitler also arose from authority.

The bible has influence? Hitler had influence.

The bible is accepted by most authorities in the field? Hitler was accepted by practically every authority including the church.

Ergo the bible and Hitler are authoritative.

See what I mean about problematic? Just because something is authoritative doesn't make it good for humanity. Let me know if you come up with something worth considering.

Peace,

Scotty

Fr_Chuck

Apr 26, 2008, 01:35 PM

I thought red was in this season,

But actually remember Saints and icons and statues and prayer beads is not a just a Catholic thing, in fact it is more Christian over all than not. Since the majority of Christians over all believe and practice them.

The Anglican churches, Orthodox Churches, Catholic Churches all use them in one form or another, and several other denominations such as Lutheran had saits in their basic teachings.

Not all to the same levels but they do all have them.

So in fact it is not merely catholic but those beleifs include the Catholic,and Orthodox and some protestant churches. The catholic just gets more press on it.

As to the "red" Papal shoes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_shoes)
All Bishops, most monks and some priests all wear the similar head covering ( I wear one myself) the color shows the rank or position

scottyv

Apr 26, 2008, 01:37 PM

Come on Tali, that makes too much sense, you are going to confuse people! :]

scottyv

Apr 26, 2008, 01:38 PM

And that is just the beginning!

JudyKayTee

Apr 26, 2008, 01:39 PM

I thought red was in this season,

But actually remember Saints and icons and statues and prayer beads is not a just a Catholic thing, in fact it is more Christian over all than not. Since the majority of Christians over all beleive and practice them.

The Anglican churches, Orthodox Churches, Catholic Churches all use them in one form or another, and several other denominations such as Lutheran had saits in their basic teachings.

Not all to the same levels but they do all have them.

So in fact it is not merley catholic but those beleifs include the Catholic,and Orthodox and some protestant churches. The cathlic just gets more press on it.

As to the "red" Papal shoes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_shoes)
All Bishops, most monks and some priests all wear the simular head covering ( I wear one myself) the color shows the rank or position

I understand the hat - it was the shoes that I couldn't figure out.

And you are right - red is in fashion this season.

scottyv

Apr 26, 2008, 01:53 PM

Smoked,

Ok this is kind of low NK..I also have no problem with gay people. Just stating the facts. Does that mean that Christians hate gays? No..and that is a very bad misrepresentation of what was said. People, ALL PEOPLE are sinners...Don't paint this topic as a "Christians hate gays". The questions was valid and the valid resource on the topic is the bible. Bottom line.

By the way, Christians, myself, and anyone I know don't hate a person for being gay. On the contrary, I pray for everyone's salvation. Even yours.

Ummm... lets not go off the deep end here Smoked.
NeedKarma wrote: "No thank you, I have no problem with gay people."

That is a far cry from Christians hating gays, those were your words not NK's.

Christians hating gays is not a bad misrepresentation it is a fact!

I don't know anyone who hates people that are gay either but I wouldn't hang with people that did. Yet I have a television, a radio and a computer and have seen with my own eyes religious hatred. Whether it be so called Christians holding signs stating that God hates Gays. Religious people who have attacked the rights of people based on sexual preference, Clinic bombings, political alienation, I could go on... Whether you like it or not that is part of your tradition, and you come off like you are defending that tradition.

You don't hate a person for being gay, but you find it perfectly acceptable to presume we are all sinners because a book written over 2000 years age says that we are.

Hmmmn, sounds reasonable.