Can a condenser unit that is rated for R410 run on R22?

Not really. The oils that is used in the different systems are not compatable. The compressor compression ratios are different. The sizing of coils is different. Not worth the effort and if done someone is just looking at a disaster in short order.

Not really. The oils that is used in the different systems are not compatable. The compressor compression ratios are different. The sizing of coils is different. Not worth the effort and if done someone is just looking at a disaster in short order.


Thank you for the quick response.
My Condenser is going out on, which is an R22 system. Someone offered me a same rated condenser but it is a 410a system. I am not sure if my air handler would work with the required R410 extra pressure. So I was hoping the r410 condenser could run with R22.

I have notice that some manufactures do make systems that can take both type of Freons
But I did not know if that was true with all units.

The only difference on the indoor coil is the metering device. One is set for 410 the other for 22.

So you think the Air Handler can take the R410 pressure? If I change out the valve?

It in my rental home and I really don't what to take the time to change out the air handler while my tenant is in there.

NOT unless the indoor unit is rated for 410. Yours is probably rated for R 22 only. The operating pressures are much higher with 410

Your indoor coil will be to small for 410.

I know you do not want to here this but you need to change out the indoor coil.

All manufactures are checking for proper coils being used with the new 410. When a 410 condensing unit is picked up it is better to get the 410 coil at the same time. The checking is done on the Wholesale invoice and if the compressor goes out on the new 410 unit your warranty might not be valid.

This is happening in this area because the manufactures have seen a increase of mineral oil in the warranty compressors for 410 compressors. (mineral oil is used in R22 not 410.) Thus the void of warranty.

Another problem is if you do not do it correctly you will be back doing it again and probably soon. The old R22 coil and line set has a lot of R22 mineral oil in it to start with and would have to be flushed with a special cleaner before you could think of using 410.

I have rental properties and you have to sped a few $$ on them from time to time. Fix it correctly with correct 410 indoor coil matching the 410 outside unit. So you should be trouble free.You can disconnect the suction and discharge lines and blow them out clean enough with nitrogen.

On older coils the only real way to make them work with 410 is to use a expansion valve and piston or flow rater will not work because none of the older coils were listed for use with a 410 flow rater. The expansion valve will have to be properly adjusted so I hope the professional you hire to do this work is capable of doing it.

410 loves moisture and will have to be double vac down and a micrometer should be used to make sure the moisture and debris/non condensibles is properly removed.

Sorry to say but I cannot in all honesty telling you that all you have to do is change the metering device. Some folks might do there work in this manner but it is not the way a professional HVAC person works.

People are always looking for the easy and cheap way out. That is not how I operated my shop because I wanted to keep my customers.

You are so right we are just all floating in a sea of wrong while you are sailing by in your ship of right.(9 years a go a home owner was in the same position and I did a change out from just changing the metering device and pulling a good vacuum and they are rocking on to date).

you are so right we are just all floating in a sea of wrong while you are sailing by in your ship of right.(9 years a go a home owner was in the same position and I did a change out from just changing the metering device and pulling a good vacuum and they are rocking on to date).

Hey Ttop I am not always right but I do know refrigerants.I have been to Emerson,Bristol, and Tecumseh Compressor Company's Train the trainer courses. These are special courses given to people such as myself so I can teach the courses to other professional HVAC people. I take this industry seriously because many people do not and that gives us all a bad name.

Installation of R-410A systems requires a few things that R-22 doesn't necessarily require. All R-410A systems have a liquid line filter-dryer included, which must be installed. Before and during brazing, nitrogen must be run through the line set and indoor coil. When using low pressure, it must be below 0.45 mmHg. Like mineral oil used with R22, POE (Polyol ester) oil absorbs moisture, but unlike mineral oil, POE oil breaks down in the presence of moisture to form acids. R-410A must be liquid charged. On a new installation, additional refrigerant should be added for every five foot section of liquid line after the first 15 feet (typical factory precharge). If a R-410A system is undercharged, one must carefully put liquid through the vapor line. Vapor charging R-410A will contaminate the system. Liquid charging will allow the ingredients to mix in the proper proportions. The operating pressures with R-410A are higher than R-22. Typical head pressure will be somewhere in the 275 to 375 psi range, while suction will be in the vicinity of 150 psi. All R-410A systems use an expansion valve at the indoor coil. If one has a universal coil (one that can use R-22 or R-410A) the valve must be installed and the piston removed. Coils designed for R-410A already have the expansion valve installed. When an R-410A system is serviced, the refrigerant must be recovered. This is important because of its high global warming potential. In many countries, it is illegal to discharge any refrigerant, including R-410A.

My entire life has been spent in this industry and since I am a old man that has been a long time.

One thing I try to do every day is to learn something about this industry since no one can know it all.

Its one thing to be book smart but its another to be field smart. Check the deference on the thickness of the copper tubing of the older coils and the ones we have to date, I bet the older ones have the thicker copper tubes and we all know the weld is the same.(I know I love to scrap them out). Think about it You can buy an expansion valve for R22 or 410A for the same coil, They ask when you order the part. It's a preset metering device for that refrigerant at that tonnage.

((Its one thing to be book smart but its another to be field smart))

I sold out my 37 man small corporation for big bucks to a much larger corporation a few years back. When a problem came up that my high paid (26.76 per hour+ benefits) men could not find the problem I ended up being the trouble shooter on that problem job.

I went from service tech to teaching so I am well aware of most items in the service field.

The thickness of the copper tube is not my concern. It is the rating of the coil that tells the tail. If the coil is not rated for R-410 you do not use it.

((I bet the older ones have the thicker copper tubes and we all know the weld is the same.))

It does not make a difference how thick the tubes are because it is not rated and the R-22 coil will be to small to operate with R-410. R-410 needs a much bigger indoor coil period.

((Think about it You can buy an expansion valve for R22 or 410A for the same coil, They ask when you order the part. It's a preset metering device for that refrigerant at that tonnage.))

Yes the new R-410 coils are rated for R-22 because they are not making R-22 only coils any more but if there are any old R-22 coils left they are not rated for R-410 so what is your point?

Sure you can buy a thermostatic expansion valve for both R-22 and R-410 but the coils are rated for the higher pressure of R-410. This was done so if any R-22 machines can use the R-410 coil so as to not duplicate the coil manufacturing. You stock the higher pressure rated R-410 coils and have a R-22 valve available for units that run R-22.

The only difference in the valves are the power head. The power head is the item with the bulb on the end. A R 22 valve bulb is charged with R-22 and the R-410 valve is charges with R-410 so the expansion valve can adjust itself to the refrigerant being used.

((Its a preset metering device for that refrigerant at that tonnage))

Expansion valves are not preset metering device. The valve modulates the refrigerant volume depending upon the pressure and temperature in the indoor coil. These valves are called external equalizing valves. Internal equalizing valves are not used on medium temp refrigerant units (A/C).

Many expansion valves (not all) need to be adjusted but service persons not familiar with expansion valves never do it because they think it is automatic. If you want to fine tune a system you always use a super heat or sub cooling chart to adjust the expansion valve or other flow rater device.

To many untrained service personal just juice the unit until they think it is operating OK and leave the job that way. These people are not professionals but freon jockeys and in the future we will see a lot less of them due to manufactures calling for in house training. They will all have to go back to school or get out of the industry. This is a fact and it is coming to your area soon.

I procter the Nate tests in this area and I would hate to tell you how many older service people fail the test over and over. They end up in one of my classes so they can refresh basic knowledge of the industry.

I enjoy what I do and since I teach (augratis) for free. I do not need the $$ and I really enjoy when what I call the light bulb going off when a person finally understands something they thought they knew for years but were wrong.

High Tech is here to stay. At the university we are currently testing a complete DC driven variable speed compressor unit with a SEER of 26 and it will be out in the near future. No hack will be able to slap a set of gauges on this baby and dump in refrigerant. These units are so high strung that one ounce off on the refrigerant charge will drop the efficiency down to a 23 SEER.

I always tell people if you are going to sell a 13 SEER unit make sure it runs with the efficiency of a 13 SEER. Units will run with a over charge or a under charge but the customer will suffer from higher electric bills if not dialed in correctly.

I learn something new every day and it is a good habit if you are in this industry.

School is out for tonight my friend have a good Sunday.

And why will 410a not work on a R22 coil?? I love it. To all a good night.

((And why will 410a not work on a R22 coil?? I love it. To all a good night))

Yes that is right. The coil is to small on the dedicated older R22 coils for R-410 usage besides the test pressures are higher for 410. I also may add that the alloy used for assembly of the copper in the coils for 410 is different so as to be able to cope with the higher pressures.

So what your saying is the older coils and line sets of lets say ten years ago will not work with 410a and the ones that are is only a figment of our imagination. The coils only got larger after the government made it mandatory for the 13 seer or higher system. 10 Years ago they sent a piston(metering device) with a sticker marked 410A to put on your r22 evaporator coil when you replaced the A/C or heatpump with a 410A system. I have not heard of the new magical alloy they put in copper to make it stronger.

Thank you for all your help and suggestions!!

((So what your saying is the older coils and line sets of lets say ten years ago will not work with 410a and the ones that are is only a figment of our imagination))

Manufactures are only approving the proper size coils and proper size line sets for the use with R-410 and the new R-22 higher SEER units. They must meet the criteria and be approved by the ARI for the proper SEER and only the new coils will meet those criteria.

((The coils only got larger after the government made it mandatory for the 13 seer or higher system. ))

Well they sure got bigger and you are absolutely correct especially for R-410 and the new R-22 higher SEER units. This is why you should use the bigger coil since they are matched to the new equipment so as to match the rated efficiency. They did not make them bigger just for fun it was mandated by our Federal Government to save energy. Every time you make one of your Frankenstein outside unit only installs you cheat your customer usually without there knowledge that they are not getting a high efficiency unit they paid for since you did not use the proper coils on the inside unit. This means they are being cheated by you. It is that simple.

((10 Years ago they sent a piston(metering device) with a sticker marked 410A to put on your r22 evaporator coil when you replaced the A/C or heatpump with a 410A system.))

Not exactly correct on your part. They sent a piston sized to the outside unit for use with a new indoor matching coil for the R-410 usage. The sticker was there so the next service person was warned that the system contained R-410 since its usage was just beginning. (BTW R-410 was called Puron and Carrier was the first company to offer a long-term replacement for Freon 22 as far back as 1994. This is just for your knowledge. It has been longer than 10 years ago.

You cannot match an old R-22 coil to match the new high efficiency R-22 or R-410 units. The factory says so, the Federal Government says so. What is your problem with understanding this. Just because you have done it does not mean it is correct. Your head and suction pressures will not register correctly with a piston under these circumstances. The air might have felt cool but the unit was not performing as designed by the manufacturer. Are you a better engineer that the factory one who worked for years to develop a system that works correctly? I do not think so!

((I have not heard of the new magical alloy they put in copper to make it stronger))

There is no alloy that makes copper stronger. The alloy that was discussed was a change made to the brazing/soldering alloy used in all the new coils that are dual rated to use with R-22 and R-410 which by the way they all are now. Since the operating pressures are higher with R-410 they needed an alloy that would handle the increased pressures and still maintain a margin of safety. Harris Welding Products a manufacture in this industry for over 100 years helped with the development. Actually they already had the alloy formulation and all they needed was some testing. They did the normal in house testing and then Joeph Harris the company owner gave me some to use. I could actually tell no difference in usage as it flowed butter smooth and filled the joint. It was a good product and is in use today on the assembly line weather they are torch brazed or electric brazed it all worked the same. BTW Mr. Harris is a close neighbor of mine and a friend. When I was 20 years old and just out of the service he got my name and called me to fix a unit that three other companies failed to fix. It was on his home and he was quite frustrated. Needless to say I fix the problem and after that day I had more business that I could handle. This is what helped my business grow to thirty seven people in a short period.

Start doing your customers right. If you are going to sell them a unit do a complete job and be proud of your work. I realize it is easier just to slap an outside unit in place and call it a day but you are not only cheating your customers you are actually cheating yourself. Your customers will be much happier when you can tell them truthfully that they got a proper job and the money they paid was not for a hacked system. This will set you up as a quality contractor not just one of the hacks.

My motto is never bring a knife to a gun fight. The guy with the gun always wins.

Hvac1000 you gave great responses and good suggestions. You are real dedicated.

But I was not asking to perform this type of repair in the field. This is my own personal unit.

This is not an ideal situation, I was asking only for a temporary fix.
I have difficult access to the inside of my rental unit with these particular tenants and can only do a temporary fix.

I would defiantly replace the inside Air Handler as soon as I could.

After thinking it over, changing the inside valve would be as much trouble as replacing the Air Handler and I am unable to do this at this time.

I was hoping the R410a condenser could temporary run on R22 without damaging it. Then I would change the system back to R410 with the replacement Air Handler later.
What do you think?

The compression ratios are different

The refrigerant metering device is different.

The indoor coil is different

The mineral oil from the R-22 system along with any moisture content will cause major problems.

The glide slope of both refrigerants are as different as night and day.

A suggestion for you.

Get a R-22 condenser of the same size.

You as a landlord have a difficult time accessing your own property? This does not make any sense. A landlord has the right to access there property anytime they have a need to. The tenants are also not allowed to change the locks on the door unless they supply the landlord with a copy of that key that works. I have rental and I have only had one time in all the years that the tenant did not want to give me access. I contacted the local police with my concern over possible wrong doing and the police got me immediate access while they stood at the door. That was the tenants first mistake there second mistake was having materials for manufacturing meth in there rental home. They went to jail and I fixed the plumbing. Problem solved.

I think what is happening here is that someone gave you a R-410 unit and you are being to cheap to obtain a r-22 unit that will work with little problems. This is the only reason I can see for your persistence in trying to convince yourself that a R-410 unit will work.

You ask the basic same questions over and over looking for a ray of hope that someone will tell you it will be Ok to use it. It is not OK to use a R-410 condensing unit on a R-22 system especially using R-22 refrigerant and mineral oil.

Demand your right of access to your unit and fix it correctly before you cost yourself more money in the long run.

Different type of refrigerant and totally different equipment. If you use r22 it will blow your compressor and then your outside unit will be shot and it will also void your warrenties!

Do it right, do it only once. The "temporary" repair ideas you are entertaining will have completely negative results, wasting your efforts and funds. Unless this is, indeed, a "science project", and your "research budget" is generous.

HVAC1000,
I have a question that I think you would be able to help me with. I appreciate the fact that you do care for customers like me that spend their money and would like to get what they pay for. So thank you for that. My question is this... I have a new home being built. It will have two units. One is a Gibson Package unit (everything in one unit) The other is a Gibson Cool only unit w/ air handler in the attic. This system was put in brand new just last week. Has not been operated yet. I went out today and the Heating and Air company had set the two outside units. When I looked at one of the outside units I noticed the tag said to fill with R22?? So I understand this must be an R22 unit. Not what I wanted nor was told I was getting. I was told I was getting a R410 unit. My question is this... since the air handler/evaporator coil and the supply lines are all new does this mean they are already rated for R410? Or do they still make the lines and coils for the R22 as well. From what I am reading, not that I am interrupting it right, you can use R22 units with the new current evaporator coils but you can't use R410 with the old type coils. Am I correct? If so, I would think all I have to do is get the Heating and Air company to just change the units out with R410 units?? The units have been installed but they haven't been run yet so they haven't contaminated my system yet. That is one thing I want to avoid if it is possible to change them over. Changing the units out isn't a big deal, however if the air handler has to be changed out, then they have their work cut out for them. It is in the attic, and all the sheet rock has been done. It won't come out as easy as it went up. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
JMAC

Not what I wanted nor was told I was getting

First of all you should get exactly what you paid for.

My question is this...since the air handler/evaporator coil and the supply lines are all new does this mean they are already rated for R410

More than likely since they stopped making dedicated R-22 coils some time ago BUT you do not know the exact age of the equiptment they installed. It could be old stock they are trying to get rid of.

From what I am reading, not that I am interrupting it right, you can use R22 units with the new current evaporator coils but you can't use R410 with the old type coils. Am I correct?

Correct.

I would think all I have to do is get the Heating and Air company to just change the units out with R410 units??? the units have been installed but they haven't been run yet so they haven't contaminated my system yet.

They might not have been run yet BUT you have no idea if they have released the charge out of the condensing units since they do not have to run them to do this.

Changing the units out isn't a big deal, however if the air handler has to be changed out, then they have their work cut out for them. It is in the attic, and all the sheet rock has been done. It won't come out as easy as it went up

It really does not make a difference how difficult or how much work is involved. You should get what you paid for.

I would start by checking to make sure the units you are getting are R-410 and they are of the current model numbers available from 2008 or 2009. The inside and outside should match exactly. Have the dealer/builder certify this information then check for yourself since it seems they made a mistake OR lied to you about your units being R-410 to start with.

Many corners are being cut right now in the building trades because of the money situation and there is plenty of old equipment sitting around since they have not been selling/building as many new homes or replacing as many units with the economic problems we are having. Keep an eye on everything but verify especially on your HVAC equipment. Nothing is wrong with R-22 equipment but R-410 is the latest and greatest so you should get exactly what you paid for. The equipment should be sized correctly and installed according to the manufactures install instructions. ALL paperwork that comes with the equipment has to be left on the job site according to code and the manufactures install instructions. If you let things slide you will not get what you paid for.

Okay thanks. You have been a big help. I am going to check the other unit today. I know one of the units is an R22 from the tag. I will see about the second one. They may have just made a mistake but these days it is hard to find anybody to rely on for sure. I am interested in seeing what the air handler with the evaporator coils has for a mfg date. I am hoping they just made a mistake and set the wrong outside units.

Thanks,
JMAC

I have checked the entire system that was put in my new house. Both outside units plus the airhandler/evaporator coils are all R22. All three are the Gibson (Nordyne) models. First thought is to have them take it all out and have them replace it with R410. Lots of labor, which shouldn't be my problem, but there are some issues with the new house that this will cause. Mainly tearing out sheetrock and repainting of the interior walls. Getting painting to match and so on. My questions is, IF I decided to leave the R22 system in vs replacing it with the R410 system, what type of compensation in $$$$$$ do you think would be fair for allowing them to keep the R22 system in place and not having to replace it. I have been told that if the R22 unit has to be replaced after 2010 that it would be replaced with a R410 unit. When or if it is replaced with a R410 the evaporator coils would have to be replaced in the air handler and the lines would have to be flushed out. This is about a $1400 dollar job from what I am being told. So basing on that, any ideas what you guys in the field would consider fair and equatible?

Thanks,
JMAC

Folks in phoenix az area should think twice before changing to ac with R410. The extreme heat is not suitable for R410 which turns to gas and loses its capacity to cool. R410 also operates under such high pressure that it draws outside hot air down through bathroom ceiling vents.
I set my thermostat at 78 and the ac runs continuously 5 or 6 hours during afternoon and the room temp rises to 82 degrees. The ac is better during the night and early morning only. House is 1900 sq ft with 5 ton ac. Hopefully in time the pros will develop a new generation of refrigerant that actually cools in all climates. Until then I am going back to R22.

R-410A works just as well as R-22. You just have a bad install.

T top just bin schooled I stated at 19 years old I'm 50 now nice stuffhvac 1000 would love to go back to school were are u