Putting your western values aside for a moment, do you think humans or men in particular are naturally polygamous.

marriage and its values are learned, by customs, religioius values and tradtions.

I am not sure at a pure base polygamous nature in man.

For some men, yeah, polygamy is quite natural. For some women, polyandry is the way to go. The men can just go to Utah. I think women have to go to Nepal.

Men's testicles are not large enough to be properly polygamous. This indicates they have not in the recent evolutionary past experienced high levels of sperm competition like say chimps who's testicles are (with body size taken into account) have testes four times our size and are polygamous. However human males don't have tiny testicles this indicates although monogamy is the norm we as a species are not exclusively exclusive. Another possibility and this has been seen though history is the harem situation- one dominant male- many females. This has a problem if producing a lot of frustrated males who cannot breed so I think this is why in most societies this has decreased as a viable way of organising relationships. Although it does have a benefit in times of war where many young males are killed leaving women alone behind.

It is in the human female's interest to try and maintain a constant male presence for childrearing, however a little cuckolding here and there can have a genetic advantage- perhaps the best sperm providor won't be the best father...

Personally I think we are designed to live in monogamous relationships for extended periods but we do have a natural inclination to cheat. However this doesn't mean you have to!

In my life, not only is one wife natural, it is much safer and so much more uncomplicated!

9 times out of ten, I can barley keep up with my lady, why in heaven's name would I want 2 or three more ladies complicating my world?

Among primate and nonprimate species, the degree of polygyny is determined primarily by the degree to which males of a certain species are larger than females. The more polygynous the species, according to what I've read, the greater the disparity in size between the male and female species. That is to say that smaller men or men smaller in stature than their female counterparts are more apt to be monogomous rather than polygynous. On average, men are 10 percent taller and 20 percent heavier than women. This suggests that, throughout history, homosapiens are to a degree polygynous. The testical equation is not accurate in my opinion. But who knows. I could be wrong.

I believe that men are a species that is not unlike any other species in that the number one goal/objective is to reproduce, thus making it necessary to have more than one mate.

I like to think I'm above a primate in that I have control over my "urges". Sure I may think other women are beautiful or sexy but I don't need to bed everyone I see.

Yeah well, then you are missing the point.

Some animals (http://www.wonderquest.com/animal-mate-for-life.htm)... wolves, beavers, pigeons seem to mate for life... others nail anything that moves!

I don't know... I'm with Donf on most of this though!

What I do know is that if most men want to keep their testicles - small or massive - they'll stay faithfull to their partners!

Yeah well, then you are missing the point.I don't think I have. I have a mate, I've reproduced, now I'm raising my offspring.

Those bigger males you speak of are on steroids and thus have barely functioning testicles. :D

Nope. All large males don't take steroids. I'm not talking about atletes, I'm talking about mankind.
The bigger and stronger have always dominated the smaller species. It's called survival of the fittest.

I'm 5'11, 185lbs, wife is 5'6, 135lbs. Married 12 years, no cheating. Are we weird that way?

Apparently. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. I'm talking averages. :eek:

You do know you meet the criteria to be polygynous don't you.

No, you are missing the point!

Within the primate world, are there not examples of mating for life?

What you are choosing to ignore are the societal constrictions we as community put upon relationships.

Please, before you go off the deep end and bombard me with millions of useless anthropological babel. Stop.

You cannot equate the way it is in the animal world to the way it should be here in the Male Female world of our culture.

First, If you want to spread your wings and mate with any female that will have for, knock yourself out.

However, if you enter into a "Marriage" then you are bound by the words of the ceremony and the Vows you give and take with each other. Last time I checked, vows are not exchanged within any animal kingdom mating ceremony.

You are trying to bend the rules of the animal kingdom to the fit into the societal norms.

Nice try, but it does not work.

If during a marital, I Vow (pledge) my fidelity to my as finance and she accepts them, then I certainly am bound by them.

I can't decide okay that was fun for the last 2.5 minutes lets see if I can find someone else to marry.

Nope, I give my vow and she accepts my vow as it is given for all times. It's not a contract negotiation nor prenuptial agreement. It is a lifetime commitment!

Apparently. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. I'm talking averages. :eek:

You do know you meet the criteria to be polygynous don't you.If you think I am an example of an exception then you are definetely not marriage material. Stay single all your life and spread that seed!

Someone told me that one half of the population was made for the other half. With that view, he tried to sleep with as many of the other half as possible.

If the goal is to meet reproductive urges, then society comes in to the equation because of the acceptability of what is the best way to successfully reproduce.

If all of society believed that exclusivity was the way to go, then that would be the practice, obviously... but with a convenience mentality, if you see it, want it, and can get it... your behavior will sometimes be rewarded.

I think the part of your question asking about naturally is the key... it depends on the environment in which the learning takes place.

One GUy,

First of all, stop yelling at your computer...

Secondly, you have it all wrong. You as a religious person has rules that you choose to live by. Me, I have none. You can say that you want one wife till your blue in the face but you know as well as I do that when a sexy young thing strolls by you probably want to kick your wife. Have you lost all your masculinity?

NK,

Yeah... Ok.

EIFS,

I give up. From your last post, I cannot for the life of me tell who is yelling at the computer because that person is a person of faith?

Please be kind enough to identify who you are making the charges at. Also, if there is to be any yelling or threats, then this thread will be ended and discarded

I thought you were a troll variety from your first post and now I am more convinced. To each their own - if you want to honor every sexual urge you have, then be my guest. There are members of the animal kingdom that mate for life and those members are not human.

Go and try living out your ideas and see how it works for you and best to you.

Assumptions about me yelling at my computer are as "out there" as your assumptions about knowing my religious views.

Make all the false assumptions you like and have fun pleasuring yourself with them.

It is a free country.

EFIS,

What has religion have to do with the price of apples on a snowy Hawaiian day?

I have to express myself within the culture that I do know. This culture tells me that "Marriage" when used in a sociological context has certain requirements attached.

I've never been to an official college. I got married when I was 18 by lying about my age. We eloped in Baltimore, MD.

Since that time, when we turned 21 we made the choice to marry within the Catholic Church.

Regardless of the religious aspect, I gave my vow to Love, Honor and obey my lady. She gave a similar vow to me. The exchange was between Bonnie and I, not Bonnie, Maryland JOP and Me.

It stills boils down to the same singular point. If you feel that you are free to flitter from woman to woman, then do not enter into marriage. Stay single. I haven't seen any one forcing you to marry.

My opinion...

My answer isn't about what is right morally, socially, religiously, or any other word ending in "ly"... so read to the end please... also, this is mostly about sexual drive alone...

We want it all. We want many mates, but we want them to want only us.

Most guys I know are visual apes. Me too. Most guys can be in a great relationship, see another woman who is attractive, and get a rise... wonder what that girl looks like in your bed. It's a reflex. Call me a pig. OK.

Likewise, isn't half the fun of the chase when you are dating someone new that fact that it is new, that you haven't touched or tasted that person? If you don't believe that, you might want to check your pulse.

Talking to some women about this exact conversation (are men wired mentally to seek more than one parter) I got this... women, at least the ones I talked to... its not a scientific poll yknow... don't think as much in terms of sex with that handsome guy on the street. They might admire him, even get a little charge, but I don't get the sense they have to fight some primal urge to bed him.

Now... there are exceptions. I dated a girl who id say was more wired like a guy about sex. It was a blast... well, until she cheated on me, but still... a lot of fun. And I'm not saying women are less sexual than men... I just think women do a better job of channeling it into the context of a meaningful relationship... wheres guys get confused and stupid when a girl jogs by.

Getting off track.

Now... while I do think on some basic, primal level guys are wired to seek out multiple mates (and therefore not wired best for monogamy) we also demand faithfulness. We want that other person to be "ours"...

Look... don't bombard me about my objectifying women. I'm in a ten year relationship, good marriage, and I've never cheated on anyone, ever. But I do think there are common urges that a guy has to fight hard. Maybe its just me.

So the trick, if you are going to stay in a monogomous relationship, is to cross wires. You do the work to make your sex life fresh and fun, even when you've been together and you know all each others "tricks"... it just takes more work.

And, of course there are all the other layers that make up a person that can override this... all the "ly" words from above. So its not just so simple as saying a guy is wired a certain way and that's how he is.

Without complicating things, I think men are wired for more mates than not.

Doesn't mean a man cannot be in a great long term momogomous relationship and be happy.

"Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same."

He he!

Monogamy, since it's physically possible is not a bad thing, nor is polyandry or bigamy. Why do you wonder?

I used to date a guy, a fairly decent guy too, who really want a poly relationship - on his side only. He not only wanted at least two women but for them to live in the same house as him. They should get along with each other but "not too much" as he had a real problem if they liked each other too much. The thoughts were that they would either gang up on him on his decisions or become bi-sexual and have "too much fun" when he was gone at work.

I wonder if he ever found his dream girls. Lol

Well I wonder because although I love the woman I'm seeing, I also love my ex wife, my ex girlfriend, my long lost love, the lady from the corner store, hell I think I have the hots for the Korean lady downtown that presses my shirts. Of course I have never been able to settle down with just one woman, I think it's partly because I haven't met one women with all the qualities I'm looking for and partly because I'm a man. Obviously an unpopular viewpoint. I however can't see where the negativity comes from, we all know we at one point in our lives we wished we could. Get some strange that is.

Obviously an unpopular viewpoint. Only in the sense that it's a personal trait of yours and you attributed it to all men.

I SEE THE LIGHT!

I've just re-read all of my posts on this issue and I have three new thoughts:

1) What is a EIFS expert?
2) I'm absolutely wrong, you are absolutely correct, Marriage, to one woman is not natural!
3) Are you playing devil's advocate here?

If as I re-iterpreted your initial question, then no marriage to one woman is not normal. Not for that matter is marriage normal. Marriage is the antthisis of normal. We should all wake up in the morning blazing hot for a-member of our opposite gender and the next, next, next and so on until we need more sleep. About 25 minutes! Marriage is a state of life we enter into by choice, with a member of our opposite sex, that is outside your definition of normal.

In this state, we exchange vows to basically hold the other party above all others in our world. We pledge our fidelity to this one other person, no one else. It is a conscious decision we make and a lifestyle we then taken on. Rules of nature need not apply, thank you.

I come to understand that you seem to mucking around with the term, "Love" not marriage,

Love is an emotion not a lifestyle. I can love my younger sister for who she is, I cannot bed her also because of who she is.

List off the people you love. Loving them doesn't mean you are free to bed them because you love them.

One of the reasons we are not animals, is that we are capable of knowing right from wrong, just that knowledge alone means we are accountable for that knowledge.

Again, I am speaking only from my understanding of how my life works, not the universe in general. Even though I have been married for more than one minute, I an a deer in the crosshairs if I violate my vow. I like just about any other guy on this planet would bed a lady if she would have me. Andc I 'd proabaly use the old, "She made me do it!" lame excuse.

However, I chose to be married, it is my obligation to honor my vow, not my wive's, not the man in the moon. I't all mine!

To be bluntly honest, I don't care what the lady does. I'ts my place to restrain myself. And for me, that's a lot to say because all a woman has to do to excite me is breathe. That's it, I'm after her to get inside her pants and play. Here's my rub, what has my wife done to me to merit getting so badly hurt by me. Why would I ever want to hurt her that way?

1) What is a EIFS expert?


Click on his signature link for the details.

KP,

Okay, I read it! I'm a little hard pressed to see the connection between "EIFS" and Anthropology as he sees it, but what the heck, I'm only a poor wrench in a world full of canaries trying to protect me from chemically killing myself.

Most scaring to me is that we appear to be in same geographical area of the country. This area is affectionately known as the buckle of the Bible Belt.

Our OP will pay a hard and painful death trying to get his philosophy over on any Southern Belle round this here town!

EIFS has nothing to do with anthropology other than the fact that it was engineered after the second world war to rebuild Europe quickly. Also EIFS is synthetic stucco and in case you didn't know stucco has been around since the Roman Empire. But I digress..

NK, I'm intelligent enough to understand that men aren't robots. We all have our own mind, I'm aware of that. How we use it is on us.

EIFS,

Goodness day, we are getting dangerously close to being in accord with each other.

Add the following to your last statement, please? Marriage as defined legally and morally as binding two people (male/female) together. Again, we are speaking of the definition of marriage as it applies to Virginia Code. This discussion has not to do with Gay marriages. This not a swat at gay marriages in any way shape or form.

Anyway, The social mores of our area say marriage = 1 man & 1 woman. If you want different social mores, go to Utah.

If a man and woman enter into marriage willingly, then this is what they are saying they are committing to, correct.

Is it a natural act for either person to enter into given that the alternative is free love al-la Hippie life style? It was for me, because I saw it as a natural escalation I wanted with my girl-friend. We skipped over the engagement part and bit with great gusto into the marriage apple.

To be blatantly honest, I have never looked back with regret!

But I digress. Once two people have entered into marriage vows, it is up to them to sort out how it will work for them! Marriage can be a very hard commitment to maintain. It is not to be entered into just because you can do it. Both parties have to work at keeping their own vows and helping their spouse to shore up their vow.

For me, I have a simple rule which I don't think through all the time. "If I want to do something that I know Bonnie would not like me doing, DON'T do it" I have no reason to hurt the one I love by being unfaithful to her. Nor would an unfaithful act on her part free me of the obligation of my vow to myself.

These are things we choose to do. It's now written in stone that I am a male and I have to have sex with every female I encounter.

One last thought, I just looked outside my door and there are no ladies waiting for me! However, my lady will be home from work soon and since I have a nasty about of pneumonia rattling on inside me, I can pretty much count sex as a non happening item on my menu for the evening.

However, I can count on a thousand little kindness' and some level of nursing from my wife because she loves me too, that's why we married in the first place! Bonnie may also get angry with me because I have pneumonia and she is helpless to make it go away.

Let's Hear it for the MEDS! Go ahead let-er rip.

Okay, Final analysis?

I will agree with you that marriage as defined by our legal and social systems within our area is a not normal with respect to mating rituals within the various animal kingdoms.

I disagree with your dismissal of the human female species being removed from the equation. Females are an extremley important to any reproductive endeavor. Would you agree with that statement?

Would you also agree that it the female of the species that initiates the mating and only for reproductive reasons. The males react to the female condition, agree?

In the human species, we also have the ability to view sex as a recreational activity and not just a means of procreational species protection.

Do you agree with all of the above?

Now lets revisit marriage. You and I have agreed that that the legal and moral definition exists in our area and as such it calls for 1 man and one woman pledging themselves to each other.

So we have now arrived at the final missing agreement. You know terms and conditions of "Marriage". When you stand and "Vow" to your intended your love and fidelity you are doing that because you have chosen to do so, correct? Now, with every thing out of the way from above and your vow was given to and received by you now, how are you going to honor the vow you made to your wife?

For example, are going to be able defend your vow of fidelity by engaging in sex with the gal down the street that does no know you are married? Remember, it's your vow. You are bound by the vow you freely chose to give your wife. It's up to you to honor the vow, you are no longer free to play where you want because of something you chose to do.

You are only as good of a man as you make yourself be. I you make your vow meaningless what does that say of your ability to speak the truth and to be truthful man.

Women can be complicated. It is stressful enough at times with one wife, I personally could not imagine it being natural to have more then one. Hard to set aside western views when that was what I was brought up with.

Joe

Man, this is getting complicted.

I like to think of myself as not the scum floating on the top of the barrel, but is it wrong just to say I like to screw cute girls and that's that?

Yes... I've been faithful. No, I've never cheated. Yes, I have a great emotional connection to my mate... but we can make this question complicated or not...

Are men wired for more than one mate? Yes on a primal level, no on a level with a brain capacity higher than an amoeba.

Is that insulting to the amoeba?

Damn.

KP -

You have illustrated my point perfectly. "Yes, you have been faithful" That means to me that even though you would like to screw every cute woman you could find, you have the strength of character to say no the actual activities. You gave your word and your word means something to you. It cannot get any stronger than that.

Lust is an emotion. It screams at you,"Chick Alert!" The back breaker is how you choose to respond to the alert. You chose wisely! Please stay that wise. It costs you nothing to remain faithful. You could lose everything, plus crush the lives of people who love you if you are unfaithful. Do the math and you will find that a score of zero wins the game.