I, as an idividual do not believe in any religion. Sometimes it angers me when people get offended that I do not believe in God, its my personal choice. I just think that religions start a lot of conflict and don't make any sense. Am I wrong to feel this way?

Hey don't take it personal. You are not the only one. What do you dislike most about religion?

Mainly the control religions attempt to create. Morally righteous people allow religion to effect everything they do. I think people can be good people, and do the right things in life, without believing in a God.

I think the governments created religion to control the masses but over time people started believing in it. I think it started in Rome.
I find it fascinating that people pray to the sun and don't know it.
Do you think that's why church is on Sunday?

I think that people should be respectful of other's choices. I know a lady who means very well, but she pushes her religion on people so much that it scares them off. I think anything that encourages people to live better lives is a good thing, but to each his own. I'm not anti-religion, but I think that religion has been used to manipulate people a lot and that is really sad. People can take a good thing and turn it all around to suit their agenda, and that is wrong.

Interesting how the work "religion" is equated with a necessary believe in a deity. Merriam-Webster's dictionary states that the word religion is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"

It could involve aspects from all areas of life such as philosophical, theological, anthropological and sociological.

Therefore you need to define religion for yourself, God or no God.

Peggy,

I know exactly what you mean, I have a friend who is absolutely sick with religion. Her and her sister. They would go on and on and basically call me or anyone who disagreed with them evil. It's almost like a mental illness.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. There's nothing wrong with religion. The problem lies with the "believers" and how they interpret the doctrines in that religion.

In other words, the people, not the religion, are too often the problem and the reason others get turned off.

I can relate EIFS EXPERT! The woman I know even started going off on all her relatives when their mom died. She was telling them all how their mom went to heaven and they were all going to hell. She started it up while the family was still at the hospital. It was just so out of line and she went about it totally the wrong way. I could see if she had told them, ' hey, this is what I believe and I want to share it because it makes me feel better', but she went for the whole fire-and-brimstone thing while the family was still in shock.

She called her minister to come to the hospital and when he showed up and realized what she was doing, he told her to back off and be considerate. I was really glad to hear that he tried to get her back in line, even though it didn't really help.

Peggy,

Yeah I know, I've gotten into debates with fanatics and they always seemed to get really pissed off at one point or another.

I don't believe in religion either.

I believe in Jesus Christ. :)

Yes, you are wrong in the fact that you are allowing the actions of some, to stand in the way of your own personal relastonship with God.

wondergirl, I had to spread the love, but you are so right. Not being religious myself I can still see where there are good things about religion, good things religious organizations do, etc; but I also see the bad things religion has done, and the bad things people do and use their religion as an excuse.

Love-Life there will always be people who challenge your belief or lack of belief. Don't worry about them, do what is best for you, not them.

I don't believe in religion either.

I believe in Jesus Christ. :)

Isn't the belief in Christ Christianity?
Which is a religion?

Yes, you are wrong in the fact that you are allowing the actions of some, to stand in the way of your own personal relastonship with God.

No no no. I am trying to say that people get angry that I don't believe in God or have a religion. Me not believing in a higher power is my own choice, having nothing to do with other people. Other people's actions don't really influence my non-beleiving.

If you don't believe in religion what do you believe in.

I don't believe in religion either, I believe in my kids, I believe in myself, I believe in the good of other people, I believe that some people are toxic and I should keep clear of them, I believe a good game of hockey makes me feel great, I believe that napping is underrated, etc.

Right you are, everyone. We are all one. Ours is not a better way, just a different way. And, since we are all one, part of a whole, we are God. God is a good nap or your kids or Jesus.

So, can we all quit arguing with ourself now?

So, can we all quit arguing with ourself now?It'd be a lot easier once the fanatical religious types stop preaching, damning others to hell and telling those who are not like them that they are wrong. :)

Well that is your own personal choice. One day when you are burning in hell, perhaps you will believe in hell then.

well that is your own personal choice. one day when you are burning in hell, perhaps you will believe in hell then. http://images.ucomics.com/images/amuniversal/press_release/calvin_laughing.gif

http://images.ucomics.com/images/amuniversal/press_release/calvin_laughing.gif


I may need to borrow your little friends from time to time... would that be okay :D

I believe there is a big difference between believing in religion and believing in God.

Simple but true.

Do you have to believe in religion, no. Do you have to believe in God, No. It is a personal individual choice to believe or not believe.

Very simple. No need for arguing, judging or condemning anybody.

At the same time the original OP, in a general statement thinks that all religion or belief is the same, which it is not.

Well anyway, take care. Just wanted to post a couple of things.

Joe

I believe in life after death, and by me doing that it make that nap that I take so much more enjoyable.

I believe religion is primitive and leads to division among mankind.

I, as an idividual do not beleive in any religion. Sometimes it angers me when people get offended that I do not beleive in God, its my personal choice. I just think that religions start alot of conflict and don't make any sense. Am I wrong to feel this way?

You are not wrong for feeling the way you do. I too do not believe in God or a higher power and I get a lot of slack from my family because of it.

I do believe that certain types of people give religions a bad name though. Some people who believe in God can do so and not let it effect people around them. Others have the need to scream it from the roof tops that all us non-believers are going to burn in hell. I use to go to church when I was younger. We were actually told by our preacher that people needed to hear the word of God whether they wanted too or not. Even if they wouldn't listen to you, at least you had tried to get the message out. I considered this ridiculous and later on gave up on religion all together.

I have learned to let their rude, judgemental comments slide (unless I am in a really bad mood that day. Ha ha) and move on with my daily life.
;)

There is religion, that is a belief system. Most religions teach that their way is the only right way. If we teach superiority, we are teaching intolerance and hate. Your religion is different? Yours teaches love? Then why, in the past 1000 years has every war been fought around intolerance, hate, selfishness and being the right ones?

There is belief in God, a great 'father in the sky.' Blind belief in this, can cause us to think that we do not have to be responsible for making choices. The sky father controls all. Most religions that recognize an earth mother are considered 'less than' and either pagan or heathen. Those are bad words. They mean wrong, misguided and untaught (not of Islamic, Jewish or Christian affiliation.) If these 'icky' folks are taught, they are no longer inferior.

Christianity does indeed allow God to reach us. The trouble is that God is already a part of us. We do not remember that we are connected. Our minds cannot grasp what we are. No wonder meditation is so effective. Our ego and intellect are useful, through them we can experience separateness. But we are not separate from, or superior to one another.

I, as an idividual do not beleive in any religion. Sometimes it angers me when people get offended that I do not beleive in God, its my personal choice. I just think that religions start alot of conflict and don't make any sense. Am I wrong to feel this way?
You are never wrong for a feeling, however in my experience, people who claim they don't believe in god - have usually not taken the time or energy to really STUDY - whether it's the bible or any other book on the subject - I am a recent convert to christianity - and had done so because of my YEARS of study on NUMEROUS religions. I wouldn't say EVERYONE who really STUDIES the bible and associated commentaries will come to the same conclusion and take the same action as I did, but at least the person would then have a much greater education on which to go on rather than that of merely an opinion.

you are never wrong for a feeling, however in my experience, people who claim they don't belive in god - have usually not taken the time or energy to really STUDY - wether it's the bible or any other book on the subject Yea I guess you missed the part where many atheists were once christians.

Not sure what the "separate" vernacular is referring to - please explain - as for being self taught - I prefer self educated! - as is true with a lot of subjects, there are those of us who prefer ignorant opinion rather than investing the time necessary to form an educated opinion - we are NOT all separate - we are however, not all inclined either, to limit ourselves to a rationale or lack thereof based upon ignorance - I'm only suggesting that having educated oneself to the extent possible would THEN enable one and put one in a much better position to discuss ANYTHING - first learn, then discuss.

Some of you that say you don't believe in religion have ever right t9o say that but I would love to be standing next to you when that terrible moment might come in you life that you have no control over, I would like to see who and what you turn to for comfort and peace.

Some of you that say you don't believe in religion have ever right t9o say that but I would love to be standing next to you when that terrible moment might come in you life that you have no control over, I would like to see who and what you turn to for comfort and peace.

You mean like when my Aunt died (she was 55)? Or when my cousin's baby died the day before she was due? Or maybe when my dad died (he was also 55)? You mean those terrible moments, when I turned to my family and friends for comfort and peace? When I took stock of my own life and the things that are important and valuable to me, and I figured out how to make myself a better person and show those around me how much they mean to me?

PS: Your statement is rather sadistic and screams of arrogance.

When I was layng in a foxhole and three of my buddies laying dead there beside me and blood squirting out of my leg, I turned to GOD. There was no family of friends there to turn to.How come god didn't help your three buddies?

When I was layng in a foxhole and three of my buddies laying dead there beside me and blood squirting out of my leg, I turned to GOD. There was no family of friends there to turn to.

I'm sorry for your experience, and I'm glad you found comfort in turning to god. The point of my post, however, is that it is very arrogant of you to think that just because someone is experiencing a horrible event that they will turn to a higher power instead of seeking power and strength in themselves. It is also massively, massively sadistic that you want to stand there when someone has a tragedy so you can thumb your nose at them and say, "I told you so!" or "Don't you wish you believed in god now?"

You find your strength in god. I find my strength in myself. I like it that way.

Whom do you think gave you that strength in the first place?

whom do you think gave you that strength in the first place?


Strength comes from within. It isn't given to you. You have to build it on your own. I find strength in myself every day. I look for it in myself instead of looking too a god to give it too me.

whom do you think gave you that strength in the first place?

If you are a person of faith, and I assume you are, there is no possible way I can convince you the strength came from ME. I did it, I always do it. Since I can't convince you of that, I can only tell you that is how I feel and hope you accept that. You can think my strength comes from god and I just don't know it, it doesn't bother me. But I know the strength I have comes from me.

If we presume for a moment that you are correct, and strength or any other facility comes from you and you alone - what happens when you fail? - I know a an extremely intelligent person with numerous degrees who has built numerous successful companies and acquired mega wealth - despite these strengths, his daughter is STILL dying of an unknown disease and he blames himself not for the disease, but because despite all his power, all his money, all his resources, all his strength - he cannot help her - I once asked him why he takes all the credit for everything good in his life instead of thanking and praising god - akin to you, he said he didn't believe! - I said I accept this, but what has he got to lose, especially where his daughter is concerned? - I asked him if there WAS a god, would he be willing to risk her life by purposely NOT taking the risk of getting down on his knees and asking for mercy for his daughter? - I said you say you have done everything you could for her, but your really haven't done EVERYTHING! - I said you need not believe - but if there is a god, he surely believes in YOU and if this IS a test are you willing to give up your daughter's life to prove a point? - even if I COULD do EVERYTHING myself and didn't NEED anyone's help for anything - why would I WANT to live that way?
We are a social people and if there is anything out there remotely that would willingly share the burden, I'd be inclined to at least see what it's all about.
Thank you for listening!

One last comment on this - I do not fault anyone for not believing - whether it is in god or anything else - that's their choice and I accept and respect them for it - I only take exception when a choice is made in ignorance - I know an elderly jewish woman who feels life starts and stops with the old testament. Seems to me, that the old testament is akin to that of high school; whereas the new testament may be likened to that of additional (not superior or better, just "more") education such as college and/or graduate school, etc.
I had to ask: why is it that many people read JUST the old testament / go to high school and then STOP? They KNOW that education continues PAST high school, just as they KNOW the bible continues with the new testament - do you suppose people are SO presumptuous as to think they've learned EVERYTHING they ever needed or will ever need in high school and they have no NEED to learn anything else? Wouldn't one consider that just a tad short sighted? Likewise, why would anyone just read the old testament and STOP? Do they too presume it is all inclusive and they have nothing ever left to learn?
I tend to postulate, that people are just to frightened of what they "might" read, or might learn, or might think! I think that, in truth, people are so scared to have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that even in the slightest of ways would not MAKE them, but ENABLE then to perceive something differently than what they're used to. I find that sad, really, to be so frightened about what one might learn and how that learning may affect one's current opinions that one would completely disregard that education as useless and irrelevant! It's almost childlike in the way they "KNOW" they won't like something before they even taste it! Usually by the time we're 20, we've been subject to so many conflicting opinions about so many things that in truth, we don't know WHAT we believe - we know what OTHER people believe - we know what other people WANT us to believe - but how many of us an honestly say we've really taken the time to examine our beliefs and see if they are in fact OUR beliefs and how they stack up in a practical sense? - all I'm suggesting, is that one educates themselves to the extent possible before deciding to accept ANY belief on ANY subject.

i do not fault anyone for not believing - whether it is in god or anything else - that's their choice and i accept and respect them for it - i only take exception when a choice is made in ignoranceWhy should you care what people choose to believe? It's a personal thing. You live your life and let others live theirs.

Why should you care what people choose to believe? It's a personal thing. You live your life and let others live theirs.

That was my reply. The relationship with the God I understand is personal, and no religion, person, or object, can come between that relationship. That's my choice. Your choice may be different, but that's all good, if your okay with it, so am I.:)

- i once asked him why he takes all the credit for everything good in his life instead of thanking and praising god - akin to you, he said he didn't believe! - i said i accept this, but what has he got to lose, especially where his daughter is concerned?


What you don't understand about most non-believers is it really isn't a CHOICE to not believe in a god. Most simply just can't do it. I would love to believe in a super invisible man in the sky that helps you out if you get into a bind but it is just too far fetched for me. I honestly can not see myself getting down on my knees and praying to something I can never see myself believing in.

Like the guy you are speaking of... let's say hypothetically there is a god and he prayed to it because you told him it would be a good thing to do for his daughter. If he is a non-believer, he isn't going to be sincere.

The last line seem like you are trying to push him into a guilt trip by telling him his daughter's life is at stake unless he prays to your god. That is horrible!

Ok, you've said and asked a lot in both of your posts, and I want to fully address them both.


if we presume for a moment that you are correct, and strength or any other facility comes from you and you alone - what happens when you fail? - i know a an extremely intelligent person with numerous degrees who has built numerous successful companies and acquired mega wealth - despite these strengths, his daughter is STILL dying of an unknown disease and he blames himself not for the disease, but because despite all his power, all his money, all his resources, all his strength - he cannot help her - i once asked him why he takes all the credit for everything good in his life instead of thanking and praising god - akin to you, he said he didn't believe! - i said i accept this, but what has he got to lose, especially where his daughter is concerned? - i asked him if there WAS a god, would he be willing to risk her life by purposely NOT taking the risk of getting down on his knees and asking for mercy for his daughter? - i said you say you have done everything you could for her, but your really haven't done EVERYTHING! - i said you need not believe - but if there is a god, he surely believes in YOU and if this IS a test are you willing to give up your daughter's life to prove a point? - even if i COULD do EVERYTHING myself and didn't NEED anyone's help for anything - why would i WANT to live that way?
we are a social people and if there is anything out there remotely that would willingly share the burden, i'd be inclined to at least see what it's all about.
thank you for listening!

To begin, you are making the presumption (and a rather rude one) that if someone is highly educated they should believe in god, thus people who do not believe in god are less intelligent. This school of thought is frequently flipped, actually, but it's not one I subscribe to.

Anyway, what happens when I fail? Well, depends on what you mean by "fail". In the instance of your friend, I don't think he has "failed". He is not in control of his daughter's health, at least to the extent that he can make it go away. It is not his fault, or his failing that his daughter is sick, it's simply life. Bad things happen and you can't always prevent them. He feels guilty because he can't make it go away with his money, which is a foolish line of thinking, in my opinion. But anyway...

I consider something I did as a failure when I don't live up to what I know I'm capable of doing. When I fail myself and the one's I love in situations I can directly have an effect on. I have failed if I spend all the money I have on worthless crap and can't afford to buy my kids (if I had them) food and clothing. I have not failed if one of my kids (again, if I had them) is diagnosed with leukemia and dies.

And I agree with margarita_momma that it's horrible you are trying to guilt trip your friend into believing in god and using his daughter's misfortune to do so. Shame on you. Do you not realize bad things happen to people of faith as well? And let's say your friend is guilt tripped enough that he decides he's going to try this prayer thing, and he prays and prays, and goes to church, and gets others to pray, and his daughter still dies; don't you think he's going to hold some animosity toward you and toward god, since his prayer didn't work? Since you've implied if he believed in god this wouldn't have happened? Seriously, shame on you, that's a terrible, terrible thing to do to a person.

Further, I agree with margarita_momma that you don't understand why people don't believe. It's not because we hate god, or hate religion, or we think we are superior (well, surely some do it for that reason) but for many of us, it's because we can't. I can't believe in god, it makes absolutely no sense to me. My brain hears "god" and it automatically says, "Nope, sorry, we don't buy that one." My brain has always been like that, from the time I was a child, so it has nothing to do with being older or jaded or whatever. Some people are born with faith, other's aren't. I wasn't.

Lastly, why would you want to live a life where you manage everything on your own? One word - independence. I've said this in other threads; when something goes right in my life, I get to take credit. I don't have to share that joy or accomplishment with anyone else, it's all for me. Likewise, when I do something wrong, the guilt, the blame, the bad feelings, those are all mine too. I must carry the burdens, and I must work my way out of it. That's why I strive to do well, and when I screw up, I work toward making it better. You get to share your burden with god, I don't. But you have to share your joys with god. I don't, I know it was me, my effort that did it, and I like it that way. In my opinion it makes me a better and more responsible person because I'm accountable for every action.

PS: It's also disgusting you think your god would punish your friend's daughter with illness simply because he doesn't believe.

Round two, and please bear with me, as I'm not Jewish.


one last comment on this - i do not fault anyone for not believing - whether it is in god or anything else - that's their choice and i accept and respect them for it - i only take exception when a choice is made in ignorance - i know an elderly jewish woman who feels life starts and stops with the old testament. seems to me, that the old testament is akin to that of high school; whereas the new testament may be likened to that of additional (not superior or better, just "more") education such as college and/or graduate school, etc.
i had to ask: why is it that many people read JUST the old testament / go to high school and then STOP? they KNOW that education continues PAST high school, just as they KNOW the bible continues with the new testament - do you suppose people are SO presumptuous as to think they've learned EVERYTHING they ever needed or will ever need in high school and they have no NEED to learn anything else? wouldn't one consider that just a tad short sighted? likewise, why would anyone just read the old testament and STOP? do they too presume it is all inclusive and they have nothing ever left to learn?
I tend to postulate, that people are just to frightened of what they "might" read, or might learn, or might think! I think that, in truth, people are so scared to have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that even in the slightest of ways would not MAKE them, but ENABLE then to perceive something differently than what they're used to. I find that sad, really, to be so frightened about what one might learn and how that learning may affect one's current opinions that one would completely disregard that education as useless and irrelevant! it's almost childlike in the way they "KNOW" they won't like something before they even taste it! usually by the time we're 20, we've been subject to so many conflicting opinions about so many things that in truth, we don't know WHAT we believe - we know what OTHER people believe - we know what other people WANT us to believe - but how many of us an honestly say we've really taken the time to examine our beliefs and see if they are in fact OUR beliefs and how they stack up in a practical sense? - all i'm suggesting, is that one educates themselves to the extent possible before deciding to accept ANY belief on ANY subject.

You say you don't understand why someone would read the OT and just stop - did you ever consider that it's because they've gotten everything they need from that book? That to them, there is nothing else left to learn; the OT is it, it make sense, it's the one. To use your school/education example: perhaps your Jewish lady friend thinks of the OT as the best high school education out there on par with a Master's from Harvard, and the NT is one of those bogus pay-a-fortune-for-it degrees.

But here's a thought for you as well; why have you read the bible and stopped? Have you read every religious text out there? Have you gathered all of your education so you may learn as much as you can about your superior being?

But whatever. We're off topic.

First - everyone who answered - please accept my apologies! My comments were not intended to ruffle any feathers - it was never my intention to try and guilt anyone into believing anything - fortunately, this gentlemen saw past my poor choice of words through to my intention of wanting to try and offer him a method for being less depressed. And we're still friends! You all have made some excellent observations and comments - you have all given me a lot more to think about and digest - I'm going to think very seriously about all of your comments and hope to respond in a day or two - please forgive my impulsiveness. Thanks for letting me share - will respond again soon!

Not a problem, hic. I'm glad to hear your comments to your friend (and here) were made of impulse not cruelty or superiority. I'm also glad to hear you are giving thought to the things that have been said; it's always nice when someone with a differing opinion does that, even if in the end we still disagree!

I don't believe in religion either, I believe in my kids, I believe in myself, I believe in the good of other people, I believe that some people are toxic and I should keep clear of them, I believe a good game of hockey makes me feel great, I believe that napping is underrated, etc.

Yes exactly. I believe in the good things we can have in our lives without the need of a Religion telling us what is right or wrong.

well that is your own personal choice. one day when you are burning in hell, perhaps you will believe in hell then.

What is that supossed to be funny? Haha. A six year old could come up with that remark. If I don't believe in God I obviously don't believe in hell. But good effort on attempting to be clever. I don't judge people for having a religion until they start judging me because I don't. You are a prime example of that.

letmetellu disagrees: All I can say is that your day will come.

Well that was very rude of you. I express my opinion, I tell you I think it's great that you found god, but you still can't manage to accept that I feel differently. Instead, you decide to implicate that I will be condemned to hell because I disagree with your point of view. You obviously have no respect for other people's opinions, only for people who are like you. And here I thought your religion was supposed to teach tolerance and being non-judgemental.

Another angry Christian who has yet to realize you catch more flies with honey...