There is little doubt that Clinton has the most well organized operation of all the Presidential candidates; and the best one always wins. Well almost, unless it runs up against a “Movement.”

So say's Major Garrett at Fox news. When Obama took the stage the response was thunderous and jubilant, three times as loud as that for Clinton last night, and in “Clinton Territory.”

“And that is why I believe we are witnessing the birth of a movement that may be on the verge of defeating an operation. That would be rare enough on its own. But this particular contest is of generational importance because the Clinton operation is the most formidable modern American politics has ever seen and it would take quite a movement to knock it down.”
History was made last night…if all this true, and the movement continues, it appears we will have the first Black President in American History.

You Decide 08! » Clinton Operation Runs Aground Against Obama Movement in Milford (http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/2008/01/04/clinton-operation-runs-aground-against-obama-movement-in-milford/)

Any Obama supporters out there?:)

I LOVE how Barak is giving sHillarious a run for her money.

GO OBAMA!!

I LOVE how Barak is giving sHillarious a run for her money.

GO OBAMA!!!!!
By the Zogby New Hampshire Poll it would appear he is drawing from the Independents. :)

I got the same feeling for Obama as I had in the days of the Kennedy Boys... John F and Bobby... a real generational change, a movement based on American ideals... wanting to wipe out the corruption that was Bush's Christo-Republo-Fascist power grab against the Constitution. I think the young people are wanting this change big time.

I just finished watching the two part debate tonight... The Republicans looked bad except for McCain and Guilliani... a couple of the candidates were smirking at Ron Paul's assessments world events(Thompson and Romney)... I don't think that will bode well for them.

Clinton came out as the most articulate and intelligent of the Dems... Obama sort of squandered the good will from the Iowa victory by seeming inexperienced.

The New Hampshire election is on Tuesday... What interesting times.

You wrote: "Bush's Christo-Republo-Fascist". Where did this come from? Name calling?
As we covered elsewhere, fascist does not equate with Republican, as a fascist is a statist, and much closer to a Democrat.

You wrote: "Clinton came out as the most articulate and intelligent". Of course, that's your opinion and you have a right to it. I thought she looked stiff and programmed; she may be a good strategist, but she is not a good debater. Richardson acted like he was lost. Clinton looked as though she expects everyone to bow; I guess Obama hasn't learned his manners very well.

Again I can only comment as an outsider looking in but the general feeling that I get from non-americans is very pro Obama. I must admit that he comes across as a elegant and articulate man.

Given, and only in my opinion, that for the last 7 years America has been led by such a very insular and myopic president, the change in direction that Obama presents is very interesting indeed and one I wonder if Americans are ready for.

Given the fact that the nation elected Bush in the first place and then re-elected him with a larger majority after his Iraq war, I do have doubts that the US is just yet ready to elect a Harvard educated, mixed race, liberal, civil rights lawyer. I hope I'm wrong.

the general feeling that i get from non-americans is very pro Obama.

I bet they are!! Have you checked out his church?

Trinity United Church of Christ (http://www.tucc.org/about.htm)

I'm not politically savvy, but I can tell you, if he gets the presidency, I am outa here!!

Doesn't seem much different to any other religious group to me. But then again I'm not very religiously savvy :)

Just out of interest what is it that you don't like about him. Is it simply his policies or is there other things. I'm interested because although I do follow American politics, obviously not living in the US or voting I don't know as much or follow as closely as you guys. That's why I always state that my opinions are for the most part based on an outsiders perspective.

Although I am not politically savvy, I don't care for his church that is all about sending money to africa, about raising money for the black population only. If you are not black you cannot be a member of his church.


We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black


We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in the least bit prejudiced, but we are a country of a melting pot of every nation in the world. I myself am Polish and Czech, I have 2 nieces who are biracial.

This country is a multinational society, should we elect Obama, we will be faced with the "Black Value System" Trinity United Church of Christ (http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html)

There is no room in our government, I don't care who it is... Osama... Billary... Bush... Edwards... McCain, etc, for prejudicial beliefs. To become a president in our country one should not be biased one way or the other when it comes to a matter of race.

Isn't Obama's mother white? I would doubt highly that he would be prejudiced.

Is it any different to a Jewish church only raising money for Jews? Or a catholic church only raising money for catholics? Is there any difference between racial and religious prejudice?

If a politician can be criticised / condemned for being a member of a black only church can that logic also be used against a Jew, a catholic or a Mormon.

Bush is unashamed Christian and is prejudiced towards his beliefs, Christianity. He believes they are correct and all other religions are wrong. Is this a similar situation to Obama being a member of a black church who has strong roots to its native africa? Is it any less prejudice?

Has Obama displayed any reason for you to believe that he may be a prejudiced President other than this church?

Again I ask these questions out of interest, and not to argue. I don't have a strong opinion or case either way. I'm interested as to how he is perceived.

This is the first I have heard about Obama being a lawyer. Didn't Bush go to graduate school at Harvard? Is he somehow less than qualified because he attended?

Please read the mission statement in the link J-9 provides. It says nothing of just being for black people, but invites all people. Having said that, the mans religion is irrelevant, but what we have seen so far, and its to early to tell if his success will continue, is he has an appeal to those who are tired of the status quo that the other candidates represent. Is the US ready for a minority president? We will see how this pans out. I don't think he will do as well in some of the other, less tolerant states though, but he appears to be gaining momentum.

I missed the part where it's Obamna's church. How are they related?

Hello DC:

It's a movement just like the movement was in 1968 when the young people saw their brethren being killed on the battlefield for NO reason.

I thought it was the draft that brought them out in '68, but they're coming out now and there ain't no draft.

Go YOUNG PEOPLE!

excon

PS> In my view, his lack of experience is exactly what qualifies him for president.

No comparison between 1968 and 2008; zilch, nada. These are just the young lefties that listen to their professors and watch lots of TV. This crowd would believe social security is alive and well.

Perhaps the discovery that the invasion of Iraq, like Vietnam, was based on a pretense, and not truth is the connecting link for the movement.

Found this while browsing,
Newsmax.com - Barack Obama&#39s Racist Church (http://www.newsmax.com/kessler/Obama_Church_Racism/2008/01/07/62285.html)

T…proving all poodles are dogs does not prove all dogs are poodles.

Found this while browsing,
Newsmax.com - Barack Obama&#39s Racist Church (http://www.newsmax.com/kessler/Obama_Church_Racism/2008/01/07/62285.html)Thanks, that's the first time I hear of this. Seems odd for some reason. His church doesn't seem to fit his outward persona at all.

Edit: DC I just noticed your link to Zeitgeist - I will also recommend that movie. Also "Power of Nightmares" is a good documentary to understand the history of neo-conservatism and the use of fear and religion in politics.

He's playing the generational differences for all they are worth. Again ;I read his book ,and beyond the complaints about the Baby boomers bipartisanship he offers NOTHING new . But perhaps he is right about the Boomer generation .

I expect that soon Evita will have her own special Sista Soulja moment ;and Obama's Church will be part of the swipe no doubt. Her hench-men have already questioned if he peddled drugs,and suggested they would make an issue of his Muslim heritage.

I was thinking about starting another thread with the question "What is wrong with partisanship anyway ?"

Tell you what ; if Obama is elected the change will be that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton will have to find something else to do for a living .

I brought that article forth to show how far the opposition will go to bring someone down with half truths, and even less fact, as this article was written by a Bush baby, and well, Take it for what it is, an attempt at scaring people away from Mr. Obama, in my opinion. Just as the link to his church paints a picture to separate, which upon investigation does not. There will always be those that believe without checking the facts. In this age of the internet, its not hard to get your own facts.

"What is wrong with partisanship anyway?" Sounds like a good topic Tom.


Thanks for the reference NK, I just watched it all on you tube

Taliniman

Is Bob Kerry a Bush Baby ? He brought up Obama's Muslim grand parent . It was Hillary hacks who suggested Obama dealt drugs... not Republicans.

Tom

My reference was to Ron Kessler, the author of the article. I'm not a republican but like John McCain, at this point. But the jury is still out, but the mind is open.

Please read the mission statement in the link J-9 provides. It says nothing of just being for black people, but invites all people. Having said that, the mans religion is irrelevant, but what we have seen so far, and its to early to tell if his success will continue, is he has an appeal to those who are tired of the status quo that the other candidates represent. Is the US ready for a minority president? We will see how this pans out. I don't think he will do as well in some of the other, less tolerant states though, but he appears to be gaining momentum.

My thoughts exactly Tal. And I have to say in my quick look at the site I didn't see anything untoward. They are proudly black. Like I'm proudly Australian. Good for them!

Is Bob Kerry a Bush Baby ? He brought up Obama's Muslim grand parent . It was Hillary hacks who suggested Obama dealt drugs ....not Republicans.

What a contradiction that would be. Accuse someone's church of racism and then use their Muslim heritage to try and discredit them... LOL!

Does anyone think that if Hillary's dogs go too far down the dirt campaign trail it might work against her. Negative campaigns can do that. We just saw it down under recently at the last federal election. Obama seems to be kicking all the goals and Hillary is faulting. A dirty attack now could reflect poorly on her! Agree?

Skell, a lot of people don't know why there was such a piling on of Romney by McCain, Huckabee, & Giuliani during Saturday's Republican debate, and then on Sunday night's debate Huckabee was still sparring with Romney. Outside of the state of NH, people haven't seen Romney's attack ads on both McCain & Huckabee. I have had to endure those ads. They are completely disgusting and Romney's campaign chair doesn't seem to get that it hurts them more than helps them when they do this. People don't buy into mudslinging that easily. That being said, I do believe that Hillary's people are feverishly looking for the smoking gun that will bring down Obama. I don't think tt will come directly from their camp. They will find some other source to leak it for them. But, we will all know who dug it up.

Let's put it this way... I had a movement this morning after getting out of bed.

Neither Obama nor Clinton impress me with their politics. Obama DOES impress me with his energy and his ability to get crowds behind him. He's very charismatic, and he puts on a good show. And frankly, as much as I dislike his politics, he SEEMS like a likeable fellow. Clinton is NOT.

But any talk of "movements" belongs in exactly the same place that I had my movement this morning. It's ridiculous to think that thee is a "movement" taking place because a particular politician (who also lacks experience) happens to be popular. It takes more that cheering crowds to indicate a "movement" is afoot.

Elliot

Let's put it this way... I had a movement this morning after getting out of bed.



But any talk of "movements" belongs in exactly the same place that I had my movement this morning.

Elliot
I already knew what you thought of the civil rights movement. :p

http://www.wsu.edu/~amerstu/smc/images/civil1.gif

Lmao and Amen! ETWolverine

Where is this movement going to appear next?

South Carolina... maybe, given Kerry's endorsement :) It may cause the Democratic machine to move in favor of Obama. That is what killed him in NH at the last moment.

What killed Obama in NH? The Democrat machine is owned by the Clintons, I would think.

What killed Obama in NH? The Democrat machine is owned by the Clintons, I would think.
They have their own yes, but I was writing about the Party Machine

Its really to early to crown a new king, as there are a lot more states weighing in, with different issues for sure. We have a long way to go before we can say there is a movement going on across the country.

You said: "I was writing about the Party Machine". Dark_crow: no disrespect intended, but you must be young; the Clintons own the party.

George didn't you hear ? George Soros owns the Democrat Party.

“In the last year, grassroots contributors like us gave more than $300 million to the Kerry campaign and the DNC, and proved that the Party doesn't need corporate cash to be competitive. Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back.” [Eli Pariser, Justin Ruben of MoveOn PAC ]

Oops! Sorry.

DC,

The civil rights movement really was a political movement. So was the women's rights movement, the anti-war movement, etc. They were real political movements with real, stated goals, an aim, a direction, and a strong leadership to make that movement actually MOVE somewhere.

But to say that the Obama campaign is anything like those real political movements? Sorry, that really DOES belong where I had my morning movement. We're talking about a guy with NO EXPERIENCE as either a leader or legislator, much less an executive. He talks about "change", but doesn't talk about what he wishes to change to... or for that matter, change FROM. There's no "movement" here. You can't have a movement without an aim, a goal, and a leader willing to actually sacifice for the attainment of that goal. Talk of an "Obama movement" is ridiculous.

Elliot

It didn't start the way Elliot. When th e lady sat in the front of the bus and refused to go to the back there was no "Movement." But she certainly helped to start one.

You're right though about his movement, there is no movement, it petered out

It didn't start the way Elliot. When th e lady sat in the front of the bus and refused to go to the back there was no "Movement." But she certainly helped to start one.

But nobody called it a political "movement" at the time that Rosa Parks sat on the bus. It only became a "movement" once it had real muscle, and real goals and real leadership. Only in the aftermath was Rosa Parks linked to the "civil rights movement".

My point is that it is premature to call any support for Obama a "movement".


You're right though about his movement, there is no movement, it petered out

We shall see. I don't think Hillary should stop looking over her shoulders quite yet. I thought Fred Thompson was DONE, but he's making a good showing. People have been ruling Rudy out, but he's making a good showing too. McCain's campaign was considered dead just a month ago, but he's bouncing. So don't count Obama out quite yet. It's a LONG TIME until the elections, and lots of things can happen.

Elliot

Besides the Clintoons may have stuck their feet in their mouths when their attempt at a sista soulja moment became a macaca moment .

Yeah, did you hear what Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. said on MSNBC… "those tears also have to be analyzed." Then there is Clinton's statements with racial and gender undertones made about Obama and saying that it took President Lyndon Johnson to enact the civil rights agenda pushed by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

It's heating up to what may yet to be racial problem.

may yet to be racial problem.Hello DC:

May YET be??

Dude! You seem to think we're a lot less racist than I think we are. And, the right wingers haven't even started yet.

excon

excon, you left off the Bwa ha ha

Hello again, George:

Oops.

excon

Exxon, I have no illusions about how racist people I meet are; the reason I can tell is that I am not. But it most often shows itself in private conversations, not in public between Democratic presidential candidates.

But it most often shows itself in private conversations, not in public between Democratic presidential candidates.Hello again, DC:

It usually does. However, this is the first time in our history where a black man has a real chance at the presidency.

So, I'm afraid you're about to see all that private racism come out in full force.

Exxon

Exxon or excon wrote: "However, this is the first time in our history where a black man has a real chance at the presidency." I don't know the odds in Vegas, but I don't give him more than a 10% chance. But he won't be the last black man with a real chance; the fact that he is black is absolutely no reason to vote for him or against him. Bwe he he

Odds on Barack Obama 70-1
Hillary Clinton is way out in front at 3-1.

As of November the betting sites all rate Giuliani likely to win the GOP nomination but behind Clinton for the presidency

So, I'm afraid you're about to see all that private racism come out in full force.


The Democrats arranged a temporary hudna on the race and gender issues. The Democrat primary date in South Carolina is Jan. 26. With over half of the Democrats in S.C. being black I expect this truce to fall apart sometime next week . I think their little race spat was engineered by the Clintonoids anyway. They may be conceding that Evita is not Bill and will not be a "black President" . She instead may be trying to attract the middle of the road white voters ;not so much to win in S.C. but to win nationally . Eugene Robinson of the Washinton Compost thinks so .
washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines (http://washingtonpost.com)

Perhaps the hudna will hold within the ranks of the campaigns ;but with a wink and a nod the racial attacks will continue via 501c3 attack ads... or even better ;their allies in the MSM Daily Kos: State of the Nation (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/15/15427/5104) (follow links to Richard Cohen Washington Compost editorial)

D*ck Morris comments on the Clintoon strategy :

According to the Rasmussen poll of Monday, Jan. 14, Obama leads among blacks by 66-16 while Hillary is ahead among whites by 41-27. The overall head to head is 37-30 in favor of Hillary.

It does not matter which specific reference to race can be traced to whom. Obama's campaign has resisted any temptation to campaign on race and, for an entire year, kept the issue off the front pages. Now, at the very moment that the crucial voting looms, the election is suddenly about race. Obviously, it is the Clintons' doing. Remember the adage: Who benefits?

As Super Tuesday nears, the Clintons will likely take their campaign to a new level, charging that Obama can't win.

They will never cite his skin color in this formulation, but it will be obvious to all voters what they mean: that a black cannot get elected.RealClearPolitics - Articles - In Contrast to Obama, Hillary Plays the Race Card (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/01/in_contrast_to_obama_hillary_p.html)

The hudna served Evita's purpose as Morris further explains.
The Clintons will be very careful about how they go about injecting race into the campaign. Part of their strategy will be to provoke discussion of whether race is becoming a factor in the election. Anything that portrays Obama as black and asks about the role of race in the contest will serve their political interest. If you watched the debate last night ;the 1st half hour was devoted exclusively to the race question.

By the way the dumbest question of the night during the Democrat debate came from an Email question to the candidates :


"The policy differences among the remaining candidates is so slight that we appear to be choosing on the basis of personality and life story. That being said, why should I, as a progressive woman, not resent being forced to choose between the first viable female candidate and the first viable African American candidate?"

"The policy differences among the remaining candidates is so slight that we appear to be choosing on the basis of personality and life story. That being said, why should I, as a progressive woman, not resent being forced to choose between the first viable female candidate and the first viable African American candidate?"

Uhhh... let me get this straight... this "progressive woman" is resentful of the fact that this election might either make history or make history?

She's angry at the fact that the two top Democratic Presidential Candidates are also the fist viable woman candidate for President and the first viable black candidate for President?

A "progressive woman" who presumably wants to see the first female and first black presidents in her lifetime is resentful of the fact that BOTH of these opportunities are being presented to her at the same time?

Perhaps she's feel more cofortable voting for Condoleeza Rice for President. That way she doesn't have to shoose between voting for the first woman President and the first black President... she can do both at once.

Mind you, this sounds exactly like the very type of person who would claim that the USA is a fascist, authoritarian nation... despite the fact that both the first female and first black to be viable candidates for President are running in the same election. And she's RESENTFUL of that fact!!

Progressivism is indeed a sickness.

I wonder if there's a 12-step program for progressive liberals.

(Hi, I'm Nancy, and I'm an idiot"

"Hi Nancy."

"I've been sober from progressive liberalism for five days now, and its tough. People keep making me look at FACTS and read HISTORY, as if that stuff has anything to do with the issues. But I keep working the steps, and if I get a desire to be an idiot, I just turn on some Conservative talk radio and call my sponsor right away."

"Thanks for sharing, Nancy.")

Elliot

I wonder if her enthusiasm for diversity would equally apply to Piyush "Bobby" Jindal the first elected Indian-American governor in U.S. history. Somehow I doubt it. He is Republican.

It appears there is a movement afoot. Any Obama supporters out there?:p

Actually, no "movement" at all. Movement for what? For 'change'? Has he defined who he is and what he wants to do? What are his beliefs? Obama is just another rich pol who happens to be black that feels our pain and wants to tell us what to do. I was curious about his net worth: "The 50th-richest senator, with a net worth at the end of 2005 of between $1 million and $2.5 million, has most of his assets in bank and retirement accounts, owning only three publicly traded securities." A look at Barack Obama the investor - MSN Money (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/MutualFunds/ALookAtBarackObamaTheInvestor.aspx)
I don't understand how anyone could be a Democrat, much less a Democrat politician. I'll be a monkey's uncle if there is any movement other than statism/fascism. I am a bit curious: the statists have control of education; when will they take over fire departments? Doesn't everyone have a right to emergency services? I mean, it's the 21st century; are we going to sit idly by and do nothing while someone's house burns down?

I don't understand how anyone could be a DemocratI think all who read your posts realize that. To each his own.


I'll be a monkey's uncle if there is any movement other than statism/fascism. Actually Bush's reign has been the closest thing to fascism. As for "statism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism)" part have you not heard of laws enacted that allow warrantless spying on you?

It appears there is a movement afoot. Any Obama supporters out there?:pHello again, DC:

I think there are. George ain't one of 'em. And, if Ron Paul doesn't win the nomination, you betcha I ain't voting for McCain.

excon

So, excon, what did you learn about the movement at your caucus? Tell me more.

Hello again, George:

What I learned was that your dufus in chief sooooo screwed up the country and the Republican party, that the people in this great nation of ours are willing to support anybody BUT a Republican.

Some might call it a movement toward something. I think it's a movement away from something. To me, it's a total repudiation of the Bush Doctrine.

excon

This unknown Black Junior Senator is undoing the Democratic Party. It appears to me he has started a revival of the Martin Luther King Civil Rights Movement that was lost to the Left. He has his own Dream and it calls for an end to Partisan Politics.

This unknown Black Junior Senator is undoing the Democratic Party. Certainly not. The people will pick the person whose message they like.

NK…The two are not mutually exclusive.

This unknown Black Junior Senator is undoing the Democratic Party.Hello again, DC:

So, why doncha just call him the Junior Senator..? You right wingers can't see your racism and it's staring you in the face. I guess it's really going to bother you that we're about to elect a Black president.

excon

Hello again, George:

What I learned was that your dufus in chief sooooo screwed up the country and the Republican party, that the people in this great nation of ours are willing to support anybody BUT a Republican.

Some might call it a movement toward something. I think it's a movement away from something. To me, it's a total repudiation of the Bush Doctrine.

excon
I figured, without asking, that it was a caucus of Bush haters and freedom haters; probably a lot of folks who don't sleep at night, or sleep at all for that matter. I am curious what you learned about the movement. Were you sharing stories about how the CIA broke into your bedrooms?

freedom hatersHahahahaha... that line always makes me laugh. :D

Hello again, DC:

So, why doncha just call him the Junior Senator.........??? You right wingers can't see your racism and it's staring you in the face. I guess it's really gonna bother you that we're about to elect a Black president.

excon
Excon, you never fail to amaze me with your. …!
I make the distinction just like every media out there does. By your standards everyone but you are racist. Now stay on topic or keep your mouth shut. :mad:

By your standards everyone but you are racist. Now stay on topic or keep your mouth shut. :mad:I agree with excon here, you seem to want to push the fact that he is black when it shouldn't matter. And please refrain from telling other posters to keep their mouth shut lest we report you.

Here's what I'm talking about:

"Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America; there's the United States of America." Perhaps the most often quoted sound bite followed: "We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States, and yes, we've got some gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq, and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq."

I agree with excon here, you seem to want to push the fact that he is black when it shouldn't matter. And please refrain from telling other posters to keep their mouth shut lest we report you.
Agree or disagree I don't care... report me if you like

So? What's wrong with that quote?

Not a thing wrong with that quote, I agree with his philosophy 100% there. Who else have you heard say that... That is New.

Here's what I'm talking about:

"Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America; there's the United States of America." Perhaps the most often quoted sound bite followed: "We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States, and yes, we've got some gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq, and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq."
And this is a movement, or the basis of a movement? It's funny recollecting Bill Clinton, the red-neck, Eastern educated power-lover: he or Carville or someone realized that a Dem would never be elected without an array of American flags behind them, all-the-while detesting individualism and personal liberty, and scheming away at increasing the size and cost of government and raising taxes. Bwe he he he I'll never forget the red neck President-elect calling all his contributors to Little Rock for an 'economic' summit. Billy promised middle class tax cuts, remember? After the big meeting, Billy comes out and says, "I've never worked on anything as hard in my life as trying to cut taxes, but we just can't afford it." Blah, blah, blah. Obama or Billary, it doesn't matter: more flags in the background and hollow promises of tax cuts.

"Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America; there's the United States of America." Hello DC:

He was talking to the people who were left out during the Bush presidency. Of course, you weren't left out, so you wouldn't understand what he was talking about. What Bush didn't understand, and apparently you don't either, was that he was president of all of us, not just the Republicans.

But, those who were left out understand even if you don't. There's enough of them to elect him too. Maybe if Bush would have concerned himself a little bit with the half who didn't elect him... but nahhhh. He said, and I quote, "my constituency is the have's and the have more's". And that's exactly how he governed too.

excon

I believe he was speaking to national unity and nothing to do with the rich or poor, or Bush anymore than William Clinton. He is speaking to both Parties. That’s why I said he is “undoing the Democratic Party.”

Obama is winning the black vote and the "yuppie" vote (for lack of a better word ) ;those upper level professional democrats. It is yet to be seen if he can make any inroads in the white working class democrat constituency and the hispanic vote. It appears their concerns need to be addressed with something more than lofty rhetoric.

My guess is that Obama's mo. Will slow down after Tues when he has to compete in places like Ohio ,Texas ,and Pennsylvania. If he takes these states I think he will be the nominee.

He will have a tough time with the Hispanic vote, Tom, that's for sure, and I don't expect him to win Texas; however, unless something changes this is shaping up to be another “Super bowl Upset.”

By his voting record and what he has said I don't think he is as far Left as many believe. For instance, although he campaigned to reform immigration law to provide a path to citizenship for undocumented workers currently in the United States he attached strings: through a system of fines and back taxes, learning English, satisfying a work requirement, and passing a background check.Obama also called for greater security on the border with Mexico.

Well ;like McCain I think he just read tea leaves on the immigration issue.

His voting record is the best barometer and it shows me a person who toes the line and votes with the Democrats . Interest groups send a lot of time rating these representatives of ours . On immigration ;Obama voted with the positions that the Federation for American Immigration Reform 0% of the time .But you are correct .He did say during his floor statement during the debate last year that

The American people are a welcoming and generous people. But those who enter our country illegally, and those who employ them, disrespect the rule of law. And because we live in an age where terrorists are challenging our borders, we simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, and unchecked. Americans are right to demand better border security and better enforcement of the immigration laws.

Essentially I see no difference between the positions of Obama ,Evita ,or McCain on immigration . We will have comprehensive amnesty once they are elected.

Super Bowl upset ? Fine with me so long as his battle with Madame Defarge goes into sudden death overtime.

I think McCain will be able to handle either Democrat candidate . He takes unpopular positions that drive his opponents and supporters crazy ;and he still wins.

Like the Super Bowl there is promise that the excitement will go down to the last minute for the nomination. As I pointed out early in this thread there appeared to be a movement starting and it has certainly been increasing. The movement is in the crowds he draws, not so much the delegates he is getting.

Yeah, they are pretty-much the same on immigration…and for that matter I don't believe there is a “great divide” on any of the more important issues…the divide is more in Party Philosophy.

In fact, I have put the issues aside on who I think should run the country and am attempting to evaluate on the basis of which candidate would be the better decision maker both nationally and particularly in Foreign Policy.

His Major degree in Political Science sways me as well as his study in International Relations.

Would love to hear some substance besides "change is good" and other such lofty platitudes . Alles muss anders sein ?

Would love to hear some substance besides "change is good" and other such lofty platitudes .Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Issues (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/)

Feel free to download the PDF (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf) as well, it's 64 pages.

I don’t think we will get a clear picture until after the nomination…But 2 things that I see different and would be a change:

Obama is not a Washington insider and the overwhelming majority of his support does not come from special interests, but rather from a grassroots movement, a movement that just raised $32 million in January alone.

64 pages of changes…WOW!! I don't know if I want that many changes

It doesn't matter how much he writes or the content of it you don't any of it anyway - that's a given. Tell us something we don't know.

Looks like he's taken the delegate lead:
Maine Puts Topper On Obama Sweep, Obama Takes Delegate Lead With Wins In 4 States; Clinton Manager Steps Down - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/10/politics/main3813759.shtml)

I am well aware of where he stands . DC is correct this Obama "movement " is disturbingly cult like. Sooner or later people are going to start questioning about how he plans to deliver.



And yet there was something just a wee bit creepy about the mass messianism — "We are the ones we've been waiting for" — of the Super Tuesday speech and the recent turn of the Obama campaign. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different. It's different not because of me. It's different because of you." That is not just maddeningly vague but also disingenuous: the campaign is entirely about Obama and his ability to inspire. Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause — other than an amorphous desire for change — the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is.


Inspiration vs. Substance -- Printout -- TIME (http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1710721,00.html)

I am well aware of where he stands .So why did you post this?

Would love to hear some substance besides "change is good" and other such lofty platitudes.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/there-movement-afoot-169129-8.html#post875716

You guys are scared, it shows. This is going to be fun.:)

I don’t think we will get a clear picture until after the nomination…But 2 things that I see different and would be a change:

Obama is not a Washington insider and the overwhelming majority of his support does not come from special interests, but rather from a grassroots movement, a movement that just raised $32 million in January alone.
You have to 'square' your assertion that Obama is not an insider with the fact that he is in Washington.
Then you have this: Lobbyists on Obama’s ’08 payroll
By Alexander Bolton and Brittney Moraski
December 20, 2007

Three political aides on Sen. Barack Obama’s (D-Ill.) payroll were registered lobbyists for dozens of corporations, including Wal-Mart, British Petroleum and Lockheed Martin, while they received payments from his campaign, according to public documents.
From Political Forums - Politico.com (http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=2&subcatid=9&threadid=239923#239923)

Plus, account for $102 million through December, 2007. He is the 50th wealthiest senator. The argument that he is an 'outsider' won't go far, and neither will his election without huge infusions of cash from?

Hey Tom - thanks for editing your post after I quote it. :rolleyes:

So why did you post this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Would love to hear some substance besides "change is good" and other such lofty platitudes.


See my posting above . He doesn't talk substance on the stump and rarely in debate. Most of his supporters have not logged onto his web site position papers.

Most of his supporters have not logged onto his web site position papers.Yes they have.

Hey Tom - thanks for editing your post after I quote it. :rolleyes:

Timing is everything. I was editing as you were responding .

I am well aware of where he stands . DC is correct this Obama "movement " is disturbingly cult like. Sooner or later people are going to start questioning about how he plans to deliver.



Inspiration vs. Substance -- Printout -- TIME (http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1710721,00.html)
Exactly, Tom. He is literally pontificating big ideals and that always makes me suspicious. Particularly by some politician who lacks knowledge of how Washington works. Not that I am against many of his Ideals, but it is dubious as to whether he, or anyone, can pull it off.

I’ll clarify that for you George…He is not one of the Washington elite.

I'm more worried about someone going to Washington with the same ideals as the previous administration. I believe that's what most of the country feels as well.

No chance of that NK

EDIT: Although Obama is talking up Faith, as in Religion.

You are such a pessimist - it's what drives you. :)

You are such a pessimist - it's what drives you. :)
You just discovered that? It just happened in the last year and I’m having a hell of a time coping with it. :)

Probably related to age. You need to have some grandkids running around you.

Age is right; I only have two and they are halfway across the country.