So here's the deal. A couple weeks ago my civic just shut off and would not start again. I went through and gave it a full tune-up. (spark plugs, wires, filters, cap & rotor) I ended up solving the problem when I replaced the Ignition Control Module and Coil. I also had some bad gas that had water that was freezing up on me. All the problems seemed to be solved with the ICM, Coil, some new gas and some Heet. So I ended up taking the car on a trip (for the holidays). Everything was going fine, ran like a top all the way there, and most of the way back. I was coming down this hill and all of the sudden it just started lurching. (my foot wasn't on the gas, as I was going down a hill). I stopped at a gas station not even a quarter mile away. When I went to start up the car it started right up, then just quit. I tried to start it again and it started up fine and ran. Going down the road, the rest of the way home (about 40 miles), it occasionally lurched. I brought it home and left it sit overnight. When I tried to start it the next morning, it would fire up fine and run, then just shut off. It did this about 6 times. Finally it stayed running. I took it straight to the mechanic. He hooked up it up to the diagnostics, and the car would not repeat what it had done. He couldn't find the problem. It ran fine all the way home from the mechanics, I shut it off and started it a couple times in between the mechanics and home. The mechanic also said that it did not shut off the entire day that he had it. I do have a check engine light when I before I start it, and it does go out. I also have fuel pump. I checked the main relay when I was searching for the problem last time (coil and ICM), and it clicked twice before the car started. Could the main relay be intermittently failing? Or is there something else? Any help would be great!

I believe the owners of older Hondas (i.e. at least 10 years old) should bite-the-bullet and just replace the ICM, coil, distributor housing, main relay, and ECM, if like-new reliability and performance is important to them. If these cars are their primary means of getting to work, then this advice is even more relevant.

I am getting ready to move, and am trying to keep a budget, basically get the car running good again, but I don't want to replace all of the above if that is at all possible. I'm trying to narrow it down a bit, and maybe replace all the rest at a later date. What does it most sound like to you, a main relay?

Is it possible for a main relay to intermittently fail?

Try resoldering the old main relay and see if that solves the problem; otherwise, just replace it. They run around $45. It could be that when the main relay heats up cold solder joints cause it to fail.

The car runs better when it's warm than when it's cold. When it's cold it just wants to keep shutting off after I start it. When it's warm it barely does it.

Is there any way to test the main relay?

Standard bench testing procedures do not test for intermittent cold solder joint failure, which separate and fail when the relay heats up. You can likely find the standard bench testing procedure on the internet. The problem stems from poor PCB soldering.

Is there any way to test for a bad ECM? And if it was a sensor in the distributor wouldn't I have a CEL?

I developed the K-Test to test for a failing ECM. It's an overall test of the ECM to function like a power transistor. However, it does not test all aspects of the computer. It also does not test subtle problems that can be caused by oxidation on the connector or pins to the ECM--problems that definitely can affect performance. Intermittent problems are notoriously difficult to solve, at times. That's why it's important to establish a "known-good baseline."

I had a Civic distributor that was failing miserably (in fact, destroying itself) and the CEL never came on. Simply amazing.

What do you mean by "known-good baseline"?

Components that are known to be good. You are eliminating as many potential problem areas as possible. Examples are ensuring the battery is fully charged, under-dash and under-hood fuses are okay, ICM is good, coil is fine, etc. Through process of elimination, you focus in on the cause of the problem.

Okay well, the coil and ICM are brand new, cap & rotor are good. I don't know about the ECM, distributor housing, or the main relay. I noticed the main relays are fairly decent priced, so I may go get one tomorrow. If that is not the problem I'll check back with you. Thanks for the help.

ICMs, coils, main relays, and distributor housings are the most common electrical components to go on Hondas. Main relay problems usually show up during the summer, where the car starts okay in the morning, when temperatures are cool, and fails later in the day, when temperatures go up. I recommend drilling ventilation holes in the cover, to help prevent heat buildup.

I just went out and started the car. Its been sitting 3 hrs. It started fine, then shut off. I started it back up, and it almost died, then picked back up before it died. This is new it hasn't done this before. Then it continued to run fine. Does that help narrow it down at all?

It really doesn't sound like a bad main relay. However, it could be if it's really messed up. Your's just would not be the "classic" symptoms most people look for.

. Clean main ECM ground on the thermostat housing. Look for a 3-wire brass connector--remove and clean with abrasive cloth. This is a must!

. Disconnect negative battery cable for 10 seconds, or remove the Backup Fuse in the under-hood fuse box for 10 seconds, to reset the ECM. This is a must!

. Perform K-Test on the ECM. This is a must! Tell me what voltage you record at various times, especially after the engine dies. ECMs that are experiencing intermittent failure show 5 volts, when everything is okay, and .3 volts, when problems arise.

. Using a mechanic's stethoscope or large handle screwdriver, can you hear each fuel injector click, when the engine is running?

. Check vacuum hose connections, particularly to the MAP Sensor.

Okay so I ended up taking the main relay out. When I went to do so, I just barely wiggled the relay (before taking it out) and then the car wouldn't even start after I did this. And this is like 10 mintues after it was just running fine. I then continued taking it out. When I got it out, I noticed that it had been mauled up some, looked like someone had been into the insides of it. So I took it apart. Someone has already resaudered it and it looked horrible. Definitely just globbed on there. There was one that is definitely cracked around the bottom rim of the sauter joint. I tried to get a new one, but it's on order until Tuesday. Does it sound more like the main relay or am I still barking up the wrong tree?

It really doesn't sound like a bad main relay. However, it could be if it's really messed up.

I think you nailed it! You definitely need to replace the main relay. Again, most problems Hondas have are related to issue with ICMs, coils, main relays, ECMs, and distributor housings.

All right. I just went and put the main relay back on and it still doesn't start. I am getting all three clicks though, that doesn't rule it out though right?

No. At this point, the only thing you can do is wait until you install the new main relay on Tuesday, or try resoldering the relay yourself for something to do. I would wait and do the job right. It's part of establishing a known-good baseline.

Im just concerned that this is a never ending money pit. I really wanted to narrow it down to something I could know for sure before I throw more money at it. (as I'm moving in 2 weeks and am in no condition to be spending a lot of money) I really don't want to replace this relay that is 70.00 and then find out it's the distributor or something else.

Go to RockAuto.com--much cheaper ($46.79):

RockAuto Parts Catalog (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php)

ACDELCO Part # 212486 {#19113330}
RELAY,F/INJ CONT MDL
* Non-stock item--shipping delayed up to 12 business days *

$46.79 $0.00 $46.79

Otherwise, go to a local salvage yard.

If there was a bad sensor, wouldn't the ECU be sending a signal for my CEL to come on? I was just trying to make sure that it wasn't a sensor.

When you are talking about the main relay you are talking about the PGM-FI Main relay correct? The part number you gave me for RockAuto went to Fuel Injection Pump Relay?

PGM-FI Main Relay. You never told me if you had a DX, LX, or EX, or the exact engine you have; therefore, you need to ensure the part no. is correct. Basically, I wanted you to know where you could get a new part for a lot less than $70. Always shop prices and warranty.

I looked at Rock Auto.com the prices were great... but I'm moving in 2 weeks and need the part quicker. They charged like 25.00 for 3 day. Also I was wondering if a sensor was bad would the CEL be on?

I found a mistake I have made on a previous repair... one of the spark plug wires was apprently not correctly plugged into the cap. It looks like there's been really bad arching there because the cap is burnt in that hole (for that spark plug wire) and the connector on the spark plug wire is black. I need to know... can this have damaged something? I'm going to take the cap off and check in there for abnormalities, I'll wait to hear back from you.

I just took out the (brand new) coil and from my readings it is bad. Could the previous mistake I mentioned cause this? Or is there something deeper... I really want to know before I stick another 80 dollar part in there for it to fail 300 miles later. My numbers were 14.68 on the secondary and on the primary 1.8 (which to my knowledge that means the primary ready indicates a bad coil). I literally just put this part in about a week and a half ago.

Oh and when I took the cap off there was a white talcy powder in there. The ICM looks good, but it looked good last time it failed ( it was replaced with the coil about a week and a half ago). I know that one of the signs of a bad distributor is if the shaft is loose, but it is secure in there. Any ideas?

The resistance in the primary circuit appears too high. I don't think it should be higher than about .8 ohms. I don't know what the white powder is.

If the distributor cap, rotor, and spark plug wires are not in kept in good shape (i.e. too high resistance), the high secondary voltage will be discharged on the electrical system itself. This will be the path of least resistance. This is how ICMs and coils often experience premature death.

I did just replace the plugs and wires , cap & rotor... so do you think it was the spark plug wire not being in there all the way... like I said there was black soot on the metal connector on the plug wire, and the hole for the wire to plug into on the cap was melted and definitely some arching had gone on there. I just want to know if in your opinion this could have caused the problem. From what I'm hearing it sounds like it very well could have. I just want to double check before I put a new coil in that I'm not asking for it to do it again.

If what you are saying is that one of the spark plug wires was not firmly connected to the distributor cap, then yes. The easiest way to ruin a coil is to stress it to the max by removing a spark plug cable from the distributor cap, while the engine is running. It's being forced to put out maximum voltage, which it can only do for so long before it is ruined.

Yes that is what I am saying. Looks like something that I overlooked caused the problem. One of the spark plug wires was not connected firmly, and I drove it about 300 miles that way on a trip. I guess that's probably what did it. Thank you for all of your help. I could not have diagnosed and fixed the car without it. It's really greatly appreciated! I will let you know the outcome when I get it fixed. I think I'll replace that main relay as well, it probably needs it from what I seen when I took it apart. Oh just one more question... since this has happened will that spark plug wire be damaged? Again, thanks for everything.

No, the spark plug wire should be fine.

A final thought. If you ordered the main relay and coil from RockAuto.com, it would likely be cheaper than buying it locally, even if you paid for overnight delivery. It might be worth looking into. The TEC coils that I've checked out from RockAuto.com are OEM Honda coils for a fraction of the price. The TEC coil for your Civic (Part # 30510PT2006) would cost $42.99. This is the identical coil I installed in my Civic 19 months ago.

Well I went back to Shucks where I originally got the part... and they exchanged the coil for a new one. I put it in today and the car fired right up. I double checked on the spark plug wires (this time I didn't want the same thing to happen). I just had another quick question. When my car is idling, it will drop down to a lower RPM and it almost sounds like its backfiring through the exhaust. Then it will pick up a little bit of RPM and smooth out. Is this just because it is cold here? By the way thank you so much for your help with all of these ignition troubles.

Possibly. Make sure you are only using 5W-30 engine oil. You may need to check the idle rpm:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/faq-how-troubleshoot-repair-maintain-hondas-46563.html#post219948

The IAC Valve may need cleaning or replacing. Also, you may want to change the PCV Valve and ensure the PCV hose is clear, including where it enters the throttle body.

I took it back to the mechanic and it turns out my PCV valve was stuck and somehow my idle adjustment was way off. Thanks for the help.

Okay I went to pick it up from the mechanic and it purred like a kitten... then when I went to drive away it surged harder than it ever has and burnt up the third coil. The mechanic says this may be a shorted/frayed wire from the distributor... do you have any ideas why it's burning these coils up?

Very unusual. Go over everything that has been done. Ensure the ICM, rotor, distributor cap, spark plugs, and spark plug wires are the correct ones for your car. High secondary voltage is being turned on the coil itself and is destroying it. There's major resistance somewhere, where the path of least resistance is not through the spark plug wires.

Inability of the system to correctly jump the spark plug gap will force inappropriate ground paths through other secondary ignition components, such as coils, rotors and spark plug insulators, destroying them as well. Old wires can also cause misfiring under load. There may be a problem with the new spark plug wires you installed. Also, check the spark plugs (NGK only) and spark plug gap.

The mechanic just called me back and told me that the wires from the distributor are all fine, but I do not believe that I have had 2 coils that were bad from the start. Something is frying the coils and I really need to get to the bottom of this before I move and have to take the car over mountain passes. I did replace the wires and plugs the first time I replaced the ignition control module and the coil. The coil lasted a week the first time, and now it's only lasting a day. Do you think that when I left that spark plug wire not completely connected the first time that it might have harmed the spark plug wire and now there is a ton of resistance in that wire? Could that have harmed the plug itself?

The mechanic said the plugs and wires are good... any other ideas?

Not really.

I talked to the mechanic and told him to actually ohms test the spark plug wires and he wouldn't because he says that as long as it's firing they are fine. I've been told it doesn't matter if they fire, there could still be a very high resistance in them causing the coil to go bad. But the car will still fire normally. I also have been hearing that shucks electronics parts are horrible and that I should try a coil from honda or napa... any thoughts?

Is there a fuse that limits the voltage going into the coil?

There's no such fuse. If you can't determine the cause of the problem, then try substituting a genuine Honda coil or the TEC coil (OEM) I discussed before.

I got it back and it drives fine as of now, I will keep you posted though. The coil before the last one lasted a week...

Okay day 2 and the car sounds really bad, it's cutting out again. I think the coils on it's way out again which would put me at # 4. I'm completely lost. The mechanics just keep telling me "I dont know"... and putting a new coil in and saying "I hope its fixed" But there not really doing anything, just putting a new coil in and counting the days before it goes bad. I checked the ohms resistance in the spark plug wires... with the multimeter set at 200K ohms, it would range from 06.5-08.5. Is this an okay range? I'm so lost anymore. Not even the mechanics have the answer. Do you have any ideas what this could be. If the ICM was going bad could it take coils with it? I have to move in a week and I can't keep a coil for more than 2 days. I can't afford to keep taking it to the mechanic and getting no answers in return. When I touch the distributor its too hot to touch is that normal? Any help would be soooo appreciated.

Try these tests:

. Tachometer Test. Disconnect tachometer wire (if equipped). A shorted tachometer can prevent the vehicle from starting. The blue wire going to the Ignition Control Module (igniter) should be unfastened. Try starting the car again. If it starts, the problem is with the tachometer. If it still doesn't start:

. Power to Distributor Test. Turn ignition OFF. Disconnect the 2-P connector from the distributor. Turn the ignition switch ON. Measure voltage between BLK/YEL (+) terminal and body ground. There should be 12+ volts read. If not, repair open in BLK/YEL wire between the 2-P connector and ignition switch.

Other than what I've already given you, I don't really have any other ideas. If push comes to shove, take it to Honda, not some local mechanic who doesn't specialize in Hondas.

Thanks I don't have a tachometer, but I will give the other test a shot today. I will let you know how that goes. The car still runs and starts as of now, but it's definitely on its way out like I said. So I'll try that... if you think of anything else let me know. I appreciate it.

I have 12.55 volts to the blk/ylw wire. That means it's getting the right amount of pwr right?

Correct.

Try disconnecting the BLU wire from the ICM. Verify ICM is good and the correct one. You just need to go over everything and check it out the best you can.

It's dark here now so I'm going to put everything on hold until tomorrow. What function does the blu wire have? Could a bad ICM be frying coils? I just went out and ran the car. It starts fine and sounds all right at first. As soon as you give hit the gas and get a little bit of RPMs and let off, it drops down into a low low idle and starts missing and kind of backfiring. Pretty close to the symptoms Ive had every other time the coil goes out. I guess one of my main questions is, can an ICM be failing, but not completely failed, and eat the coils like this? I was just thinking along the lines of the first time I replaced the coil and ICM and I left one of the plug wires not all the way in. Maybe it caused stress on the ICM, and actually failed the coil. Then now I keep putting coils in and a failing ICM is causing the coils to burn up? Not sure if that's possible or not? Because the first coil lasted like 300-400 miles... ( I went on a trip with it) Now the coils last about a day (20 Miles if that). Well let me know your thoughts Thanks.

I would think it's possible; however, I've never seen your problem before.

After thinking more about your situation, I feel the coils are failing due to a bad ICM. Traditionally, coils fail when they get voltage for too long and overheat. Your ICM is allowing too long a "dwell angle" and overheating the coil. This used to be a problem with taxis cabs, when they would idle too long waiting for customers. Bottom line is your aftermarket ICM is bad. Substitute another brand, preferable a Honda OEM part, ensuring it's the correct one for your specific distributor. ICMs have sophisticated microchips inside and there is a compatibility or other problem with your ignitor.

Thanks. I took the ICM back to Autozone because they said they would exchange it and they said that it is good so they wouldn't give me a new one. But what you're saying is that it's a compatibility issue? I took the coil out today and once again I have 1.5 on the primary. I'm confused as to why the first coil failed both the primary and secondary tests and now every coil after that fails ONLY the primary. From my understanding, the secondary is the one that goes to your plugs, and wires so that would mean it doesn't really have anything to do with the plugs and plug wires right? I'm also still confused as to why the first coil lasted so many more miles than the rest of them? I feel these are all clues to what's happened here with the car but just can't quite piece them all together. I did return the coil from shucks for a refund, but haven't decided where to get the new one. I wasn't in a huge rush to go get one because I don't want to put it in until I solve the problem. Do you think it's the igniter still? Thanks

Also could it be the distributor its self, or the ECU causing these problems? Or no?

I'm looking up an new ICM on Rock Auto.com and there's 2 listings "Control Module" and "Ignitor". The honda part is under "Ignitor". Which one am I supposed to go to? Also if I have a "Tec" distributor, and I put a part in this that is not "Tec" does that mean it's not compatible. Because the original coil taken out of the car is a Tec, also the ignitor is not specifically for a tec distributor either. Do these things matter?

TEC means made by Tokyo Electric Company. TEC makes OEM parts for Honda. I installed a TEC replacement coil in my Civic--the original OEM coil was also made by TEC for Honda.

I suppose the problem could be caused by the ECM--I have never run into anything like your problem before. My position is that Honda ECMs should be replaced every 120,000 miles or 10 years, whichever comes first.

So after that information do you still think it's the ICM or no?

I'm more inclined to think ICM.

Why don't you perform the K-Test on your ECM and see what it reads?

Okay I will perform the K Test is there any chance the wire going from the ICM to the Coil could be bad. Because with the key on (but car not running) I get no battery voltage from that wire when it is connected to the ICM, and disconnected from the coil.

Performing a simple continuity test on the wire is the way to test it. I doubt the wire is the problem. You do want to ensure all connectors are clean and tight, however.

I set up an appointment at Honda today. But I talked to my brother (who has many years experience at a honda dealer) and he had talked to the mechanics at his honda dealership and they seem completely convinced that the whole problem is the aftermarket coil. He said they told him if I put a genuine honda coil in that the problem would be solved. Something about aftermarket coils not being able to hand the load put on them and getting to hot and failing. I'm nervous about putting on the expensive coil from honda I bought today just to see it fail if something is still wrong. I was thinking I would put the Honda coil on and take it to honda. If it fails on the way then something is still wrong, and if it doesn't and honda says everything is fine then I know it was the shucks coil. Either way I'm only out 80 dollars because that's all the honda dealer here charges. My brother said if the coil failed he would send me one. So do you think my plan should work fine? Also do you think it could be because of it being an aftermarket coil?

Sounds reasonable. It's possible that the problem is the aftermarket coil, just as many aftermarket distributors on this site have failed. Many experienced mechanics insist on only using OEM parts, particularly on ignition systems. The TEC coil I showed you at RockAuto.com is OEM for half the price. If you go OEM for the coil, you may want to do likewise for the ICM.

Okay just got the car back from Honda. I put in the Genuine Honda coil, and took it there this morning. They said the timing was retarded fifteen degrees and the distributor is already in the advance position. They adjusted it and it drives so much better now, a lot more power. I'm just curious, so I thought I would ask you. How does the timing burn out the coils? What amazes me is the first mechanic I took it to the FIRST time I took it there I asked him to check the timing. He says that he did and that it was fine. What's the first thing Honda finds... the timing. So anyway, if he would have just done his job the first time I took it to him I would have saved a lot of money... but o well it's all said and done now. But yeah that just makes me curious as to why the timing would be burning up the coils?

Retarded timing affects the "dwell" or time that the points (in this case electronic switch) remain closed. If they are closed for an inordinate amount of time, allowing too much current to flow, the coil greatly overheats and gets ruined. Being retarded by 15 degrees is HUGE!

I always recommend that you take Hondas to Honda and Fords to Ford for repairs--they know their cars best and are often cheaper than "no name" outfits. Normally, the job will be done right, when it's done at the dealer.

Here's the proper procedure for timing your Civic:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/faq-how-troubleshoot-repair-maintain-hondas-46563.html#post219963

Thanks so much for your help. I learned a valuable lesson about just biting the bullet and paying a little extra for genuine parts and dealership service. Thanks.

Oh just curious on another thing... How does the timing get that far off?

The previous owner likely replaced the distributor housing, due to a failed bearing, and didn't check the timing afterwards. Most non-Honda trained technicians do not know how to set the timing on these cars. In order to properly check the timing, 1) the car needs to be at normal operating temperature, 2) the final idle rpm needs to be set, which is a mystery to many, because they don't know where to locate the BLU wire for attaching a tachometer and they don't know how to adjust the idle speed, 3) the Service Check Connector needs to be jumped with a paper clip, 4) the timing light needs to be attached, and 5) the proper timing marks need to be highlighted and used. Your timing was so far off that anyone familiar with working on Hondas should have been able to hear and detect it. Through experience, I can set the timing on these cars fairly close without a timing light. Your timing was so far retarded that it had no power. Obviously, it needed to be advanced, by rotating the distributor counter-clockwise. This would speed the engine up, smooth it out, and give it more power.

The gas mileage and performance of your car should be dramatically better. If I were you, I would use a scribe and straight edge to mark the position of the distributor housing and bracket. This will help your timing be very close, should you need to remove the distributor for any reason.

Okay so here's my next question. The last person to replace the distributor was 2 years ago. So how come the coil that was in it lasted 2 years on bad timing, and following replacement the coils couldn't withstand the bad timing. Was it just because the first coil that went two years on bad timing was a honda coil, and the following replacements were shucks? Im just curious as why the original coil lasted 2 years on really bad timing and the next ones lasted barely any time until the timing was fixed?

The OEM is likely higher quality. If you looked carefully at the new Honda coil, I'm sure it was made by TEC and had a TEC part no. on it.

Is your Civic running better than ever?

I can't even remember the last time the car ran this good. More power, the pinging noise that was getting really loud is now virtually unnoticable, the exhaust makes a lot less disgusting noises, it doesn't jerk around as much when I let off the gas. It just runs great. I think this may have been a problem for a long time now. It runs like a peach. Thanks again for all of your help.

Put synthetic 5W-30 engine oil in it next time and treat it well--it does make a difference. In the long-run, using synthetics is much cheaper and allows your engine to last much longer and perform much better. Here are some other recommended maintenance tips:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-trucks/faq-how-troubleshoot-repair-maintain-hondas-46563.html#post219991

Hey... back again. :( My car has been running great all week, but today I was in town doing errands when I was sitting in a parking lot (the car was idling) it kind of started to do that backfire thing a couple times then it stopped. I also have a coolant leak somewhere and I'm losing it pretty quick. I do have an after market exhaust and I have heard that they can amplify any little noise the engine makes is this true? Also if there is a chance that the timing wasn't caused by the last mechanic, what could cause the timing to move on it's own? Thanks

Don't know about the exhaust amplifying engine noise. Timing would change if the 3 hold- down bolts were not tightened enough and the distributor rotated.

Is there anything else that could cause timing to change?

Bad ICM, ECM, or internal distributor sensors. Distributor bearing wear could also affect timing.

k... I have a really bad coolant leak. I took it to this radiator guy today (only cause he was the only guy open) and he has told me in the past I have a bad head gasket when it was just a leaking hose... today he told me I had a bad head gasket again. I don't think I do. He washed it off so I would be able to see if it is leaking, and I noticed new antifreeze at the top of the radiator (a little puddle). Ive heard if it's a head gasket you will smell antifreeze burning inside the car, and have milky oil, I have neither. I'm going to check out this little puddle of antifreeze see if I can find the leak ( I had to last time)... and also I had a block check done about 2 months ago and it was fine. Let me know your thoughts thanks.

My advice is to take it to Honda, or an independent shop that specializes in Hondas, for diagnosis.