The EU said that if the UN does not impose sanctions on Iran ,that the EU would impose them on it's own or if it imposes sanctions that are too weak .
This news is from an analysis by Startfor ;a usually reliable intel analysist organization (subscription only.. no link)


Diplomats from the United Kingdom, France and Germany said in Washington on Dec. 13 the European Union will impose its own sanctions against Iran if the U.N. Security Council fails to act or passes a weak resolution, the Jerusalem Post reported. The diplomats, speaking at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said the recent U.S. intelligence assessment on Iran would hardly change European policy toward the country.


What does the above statement reveal about the European assessment of the recent NIE report about Iran's nuclear program ?

Why would they impose sanctions on a nation that is converting it's oil payments to Euros? Is this about oil as some have suggested ;or the continuing threat Iran poses on the Middle East ;and with their developing missile program, a nuclear threat to Europe ?

We got the truth about Iran's Nuclear program. The only clear and present danger is that Iran will flood the market with cheap oil. He and Chavez have both warned they will if Bushwhacker doesn't behave. That would make our already hyperinflated petro dollars cheaper that Charmin. Way cheaper.

Why would the "flood the market with cheap oil ? They fund their jack-booted regimes ;along with Putin ,with high priced petrol money . Your argument makes no sense. In fact it is completely faulty . Both Chavez and the Mahdi-hatter have said they want to push oil up to $200 /bbl. Both of them are windbags full of bravado with nothing to back it up.

Well then you tell us why. Also tell us who the Jackboots really are while you are at it.

The resolution orders all countries to ban the supply of specified materials and technology that could contribute to Iran's nuclear and missile programmes. It also imposes an asset freeze on key companies and individuals involved in the programmes named on a UN list.

They grew a spine? They finally realize there is really a war going on in the world and they are targets too.

Unlike the American Democrats whose misguided thinking wants to block 70% percent of the intelligence budget from being spent until the House and Senate intelligence committees get briefed on Israel's September air strike on an apparent nuclear facility in Syria. Who want to make fighting the global war on terror as difficult as possible and take away the tools necessary to protect Americans.

Greatest Oil Reserves by Country, 2006
Rank Country Proved reserves
(billion barrels)
1. Saudi Arabia 264.3
2. Canada 178.8
3. Iran 132.5
4. Iraq 115.0
5. Kuwait 101.5
6. United Arab Emirates 97.8
7. Venezuela 79.7
8. Russia 60.0
9. Libya 39.1
10. Nigeria 35.9
11. United States 21.4
12. China 18.3
13. Qatar 15.2
14. Mexico 12.9
15. Algeria 11.4
16. Brazil 11.2
17. Kazakhstan 9.0
18. Norway 7.7
19. Azerbaijan 7.0
20. India 5.8

Tell me they do not have the power to flood the world with cheap oil which would bring our economy to its knees. You know that action would have serious implications on the U.S. dollar. If our economy was based on what is best for the consumer, oil would still be a $1.50 a gallon. Our dollars are really priced in oil and oil is priced in dollars. Now Iran wants their oil priced in Euros so they will not take a hit when the dollar dumps. That is why Bush has appealed to the EU and the UN. To dead lock them. Yes, we do have a war going on fur sure.

Israel's security minister criticized the recent U.S. National Security Estimate that suggested Iran halted its nuclear arms program years ago.

"U.S. misconceptions regarding Iran could bring about another Yom Kippur War in our region," said Internal Security Minister Avi Dichter. "We were unable to convince the U.S. of the immediacy and proximity of the Iranian nuclear threat."

Israeli official faults U.S. Iran report - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/12/15/israeli_official_faults_us_iran_report/5478/)

Israel is a Zionist state and the Zionist spoon feed the NeoCon agenda. Israel is illegally occupying Palestine and having their own holocaust upon the unarmed Palestinian people. Tell me the truth, not Zionist lies.

YouTube - Anti-Zionist Jewish Protestors (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY)

The NIE before the Iraq war is pretty much like the NIE before the Korean war. Wrong! I do believe Iran has a nuke program but how can we really say how far along it is or its intended purpose when the highest security report flip flops on the issue? Do you think they are a reliable enough source to start WWIII? I don't want WWIII and I don't think you do either and really not over oil. I do believe the bottom line here is oil. That's just my opinion.
Having said that, I really do believe someone has embedded spies in the Iranian government that know the real deal. Why then is there so much that appears to be unknown and so much uncertainty?

Magprob

You are coorect that the supply of the oil on that market affects the price. It is ridiculous to suggest that cheap oil would hurt the US economy. It is runs counter to your very argument that the price has been dependent solely on the value of the US dollar.
When the price of oil falls I will base it on a dollar that has reevaluated to a higher worth by the reduction of inflation. That is why the oil is so high, inflation of the dollar. Prices are higher for everything because of inflation.


Please explain how cheap oil could possibly hurt the US ? You say yourself that the US would be better off at a pump price of $1.50.

They threaten to raise the price not lower it.

Even if they stopped selling it to the US it would not have an impact because the oil would flow from somewhere else. Only if OPEC stopped the flow would there be a significant impact... And even that would not be as severe as the boycotts of the 1970s. I assure you Russian and Canadian oil would still flow.


I choose to not address " Zionist run US foreign policy " tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. Do you think that the reports that an illegal nuclear facility in Syria was not destroyed by Israel is a lie too ?

DC

The EU had to get their heads out of the sand eventually. Even with appeasers like Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schröder in France and Germany the EU was leading the Wests negotiations to stop the Iranian nuclear program . They have always supported the UN sanctions but the UN is unwilling to do anything about it due to Russian and Chinese interference.

Perhaps they realize that they have the means to defend themselves from external threats. Perhaps their spine will further solidify to a point that they start spending some of their growing economic clout on their militaries.They really need to be able to muster more than 1,800 policemen, judges and administrators when a crisis threatens in their own backyard.EUobserver.com (http://euobserver.com/9/25337)

I for one am tired of the US military defending German beer halls.

The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse | EnergyBulletin.net | Peak Oil News Clearinghouse (http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html)

I for one am tired of the US military defending German beer halls.

Now wait a minute here. I was stationed in Germany and I had a wonderful time defending those beer halls! :D

They grew a spine? They finally realize there is really a war going on in the world and they are targets too.

Unlike the American Democrats whose misguided thinking wants to block 70% percent of the intelligence budget from being spent until the House and Senate intelligence committees get briefed on Israel's September air strike on an apparent nuclear facility in Syria. Who want to make fighting the global war on terror as difficult as possible and take away the tools necessary to protect Americans.

Separately, Syria responded to US sanctions against two of its banks by confirming plans to use euros instead of dollars for its external transactions.

Syria has switched the state's foreign currency transactions to euros from dollars, the head of the state-owned Commercial Bank of Syria, Duraid Durgham, said.

Last week the White House told US financial institutions to terminate all correspondent accounts involving the Commercial Bank of Syria because of money-laundering concerns. Mohammad al-Hussein, Syria's finance minister, said: "Syria affirms that this decision and its timing are fundamentally political."

My, My. Isn't it just amazing how closely tied we are to England? The bank of England? Since 1913 perhaps? Have we ever really been "Out from underneath the Crown?"

Credit crisis: A million Britons struggle to meet mortgage payments | the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=502759&in_page_id=1770&ICO=NEWS&ICL=TOPART)

First off, the EU has apparently seen whatever it was that Israel attacked in September in Syria, and are still scared spitless of whatever it was. That the EU is talking such harsh rhetoric collectively means that whatever it was is REALLY scary, and they don't want Iran to have it, whatever it is. Thus the tough talk on sanctions against Iran.

Second, the idea that cheap oil would hurt the USA is kind of ridiculous. One of the arguments being made today is that the cost of oil is driving up the costs of all our goods and causing inflation. Bringing the price of oil down would reverse that trend.

Also, while Iran could flood the market with crude, they can't do anything to the world's supply of refined oil. Because there are limits to the world's refinery capacity, even if the market were flooded with crude, the cost of refined oil would remain high (albeit lower than it currently is), because there will still be limits on the amounts of refined that can be produced at any one time. In fact, the curent high prices of heating oil and gasoline are more due to the lack of refinery capacity than the lack of crude. Putting more crude out to the market won't really have much affect on that fact. It certainly would not "bring the world economy to its knees".

As for the idea of an Iranian oil-boarse that sells in currencies other than US dollars... I've already explained how it doesn't make a difference to the US economy one way or the other. It's a non-issue. Iran has been pushing for a non-dollar oil-boarse for over 20 years. It still hasn't happened. And even if it did, it wouldn't affect anything.

Elliot

I don't expect you to agree with anything that is counter to the neocon agenda. You know which side your bread is buttered on. Anything that goes deeper than the political posturing (switcho-chango-smoke and mirrors) on the television seems to upset you. Your harsh, swooping down on the opinions of others does not bother me though. That is a normal Jackboot trait we have come to understand.

BTW, NeoCon is just another name for something much more ominous. More smoke and mirrors, switch-o change-o.

Anything that goes deeper than the political posturing (switcho-chango-smoke and mirrors) on the television seems to upset you.

It is the MSM ;the alphabet soup networks who are sticking to the non-sense in the NIE.

The truth is that Iran had a secret nuclear weapons program that was disclosed by Alireza Jafarzadeh of the MeK in 2002 . The NIE reported that a year later after the IAEA began to investigate the charge Iran suspended the program which was operating in a northeast district of Tehran. The truth is that they only temporarily suspended the program to move it to various concealed sites.They razed the buildings, removed the soil down to 6 feet , cut down the trees and allowed the IAEA to inspect the Lavizan-Shian site . Of course with the site properly scrubbed the IAEA found nothing .

A year later it was back up and running at a new sites.
What I don't understand is why the Bush Adm. Is a part of this charade. They know this but they are still playing along with the ridiculous assertion that Iran is not planning on weaponizing their plutonium when they get sufficient centrifuges whirling to produce sufficient amts.

No, the truth is that you two are now giving me the good cop, bad cop routine. You wouldn't know the truth if it fell out of the sky, landed on your face and started wigglin.

No, the truth is that you two are now giving me the good cop, bad cop routine.

Which one am I? Can I be the bad cop this time?


You wouldn't know the truth if it fell out of the sky, landed on your face and started wigglin.

Oh... is that how you get your facts? Waiting for them to fall out of the sky?

Elliot

So, tell me Mag. Was the NIE correct about whether Sadam had WMDs or not?

If it was, then the War in Iraq is justified.

If it wasn't, then why should we believe that they've done any better this time... especially given the weaknesses in the report that Tom has pointed out?

And if the EU, which tends to be more inclined than we are toward negotiation, is saying that we need sanctions against Iran, what does that tell you?

And finally, if we don't go along with the EU and the UN and the other Middle Eastern countries that wish to impose sanctions, and we instead decide to take a different course of action, will we be accused of acting unilaterally?

Please, answer these questions. Don't give me conspiracy websites and talk about the nature of currencies, and the global consparacy to control the world through the value of the dollar. Just answer the questions.

Elliot

I told you what is really happening. Bush is running around the globe trying to keep the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. His, and a lot of other peoples wealth depends on it. Imperial America depends upon it. This is an economic war, that's all it is. He will use any means at his diposal to that end.
As far as your coveted NIE goes, I wish I had a pickup load of them as I am now running low on toilet paper and it is a long way into town.
In a political world that is for the most part smoke and mirrors, you see the smoke, not the fire.

Did you see where Russia just delivered nuclear fuel to Iran's non-existant nuclear program ?

The smoke and mirror part goes like this : The fuel the Ruskies delivered is low grade and the Iranians will return the spent fuelto Russia after it is used for safe keeping .

The fire part goes like this :

That part will tie up the UN IAEA inspectors while the 3000 centrifuges continue to produce
Weapon grade plutonium in various undisclosed places . Iran has 3000 centrifuges but wants to increase their number to 50,000 .

But why do we tell other countries they can't have power plants or anything else for that matter. The only country that ever dropped a nuke is who? Smoke and mirrors.

I told you what is really happening. Bush is running around the globe trying to keep the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. His, and a lot of other peoples wealth depends on it. Imperial America depends upon it. This is an economic war, that's all it is. He will use any means at his diposal to that end.
As far as your coveted NIE goes, I wish I had a pickup load of them as I am now running low on toilet paper and it is a long way into town.
In a political world that is for the most part smoke and mirrors, you see the smoke, not the fire.

Mag, did you read the part of my last post where I said "Please, answer these questions. Don't give me conspiracy websites and talk about the nature of currencies, and the global consparacy to control the world through the value of the dollar. Just answer the questions"? If you do that, you will see how ridiculous your conspiracy theories are.

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It is a theory that says that the most simple explanation for events is most likely the right one. Obviously that isn't true 100% of the time. But in most cases, it tends to be true.

So... do your explanations of what is going on fit Occam's Razor? Are they the simplest explanations of why we would be interested in keeping Iran from getting nuclear weapons?



But why do we tell other countries they can't have power plants or anything else for that matter. The only country that ever dropped a nuke is who? Smoke and mirrors.


We DON'T say it to every country. The UK, Australia, Germany, France, Canada, Turkey, Israel and many other countries have nuclear power. As far as I can tell, we didn't stand in the way of any of those countries getting nuclear power.

But... all of those countries obtained nuclear power above-board. They didn't do so in secret. (Israel obtained nuclear WEAPONS in secret, as did Pakistan, but not nuclear energy plants.) These countries all submitted to international scrutiny and still do. The IAEA still inspects American nuclear plants on a regular basis, as well as those of other countries. Nuclear materiels that are produced by these countries are documented and that documentation is made available to the regulating agencies.

Iran hasn't done that. Iran has been acting without allowing IAEA and other regulatory bodies to inspect their work. (Similar to what Iraq was doing under Saddam.) If all they really want is clean nuclear energy, then why not prove it by allowing inspections?

The only answer for this is that they are trying to hide something about their nuclear program. There are only two possible reasons for this. 1) They don't want us to know that they are really trying to produce nuclear WEAPONS, or 2) they wish to make us THINK that they are producing nuclear weapons in order to give an appearance of being stronger than they really are.

If the reality is number 2, then I really don't have a problem with it. But unless we are sure that it is number 2, we MUST assume that it is number 1. If we don't, we're playing a fools game.

So, what's the big problem with Iran having nuclear weapons?

How about the fact that Ahmadinjad has said that Israel must be wiped off the map. (World Without Zionism speech, 10/26/05) If he had nuclear weapons, does anyone doubt that he would use them against Israel? Would you trust Ahmadinejad with nukes?

But if Iran would submit to inspections of their nuclear program and would make their nuclear program above-board, nobody would have a problem with them having nuclear power plants. Bush has made that clear on numerous occasions. He has specifically stated that all he wants is Iran to be open and above-board. The fact that they are hiding their nuclear program means that we HAVE to take action to prevent a nuclear war.

So leave all those conspiracy theories about currencies and global domination home. The simplest reason for Bush's actions is to keep Iran from getting nuclear weapons, because they have threatened to use those weapons against other countries. And in this case, the simplest explanation really is the correct one.

Elliot

You are the only one calling the truth a conspiracy. That's how you try to discredit people. The axis of evil are the only OPEC nations that are trying to pull out of American controlled oil exports. You know that. Why do you not admit it. If I didn't know better, I would say you are part of some strange conspiracy?
Let Israel Nuke them. Then they can nuke Russia too. They will have to. See what Sampson can really do other than stir SH!T.

Here is another conspiracy site for you. A lot of people call it "TRUTH." but we know you will have none of it.

Feasta - Oil, Currency and the War on Iraq (http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm)

Oh yea, and let's through this story out to keep them on the edge of their seats. What better timing. (SMOKE AND MIRRORS)

Bush orders cuts in nuclear stockpile - Politics - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22319420/)

OH! Hey! Let's throw this one out too . Even though we know Ethanol will never be cheap enough, it will make us look good.
Congress approves auto fuel economy increase - Autos - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22313314/)

Mag, again you haven't answered a single one of my questions or points. You have simply said "I know the truth" and attached a bunch of conspiracy stories to that statement. I have, on several occasions, already told you why those conspiracies don't make any sense, how switching away from the dollar to some other currency to purchase oil wouldn't change anything, etc

The Axis of Evil are Iran, Iraq and North Korea. I had no idea that North Korea was a member of OPEC.

As for the claim that the Axis of Evil are the only OPEC nations that are trying to pull out of American-controlled oil exports, what about Venezuela? What about Libya? Why were they never named as part of the Axis of Evil, if the point is to control oil-exports?

And finally, if the US controls OPEC's oil exports, why are oil prices in the USA so high right now? Why haven't we gotten OPEC (the parts of it that we supposedly still control) to increase their exports and lower prices?

Are you aware that Iran and Iraq together only produce 7% of the total world production of oil? Even if we "lost control" of that 7%, would it interfere with our ability obtain oil? And since we are not in danger of "losing control" of Iraq's oil supplies any time soon, are you arguing that we are taking action against Iran over what comes out to just under 5% of world production?

Finally, you still have not answered the point that Iran is a net oil IMPORTER. It exports crude but imports refined fuel because it has no refining capacity of its own. So how is their non-dollar oil-bourse a threat to us? They need the oil that we refine. We produce more refined fuel than all of Europe combined, and three times as much as the entire Middle East combined. We produce 3 times as much refined oil as the next largest producer of refined oil, which is China. If it was a matter of controlling the oil markets, we already have that control by virtue of the fact that we are the largest exporter of refined fuel in the world, producing roughly 22.5% of the entire world's capacity of refined fuel products. Iran and the rest of the world cannot survive without US refined fuel production. We are already in de-facto control of the world oil market, and it has nothing to do with the fact that oil is traded in US dollars.

The entire idea makes absolutely no economic sense. It costs more to go to war with Iraq and Iran than we gain in oil dollars by winning those wars. The "rich people" who's wealth Bush is supposedly trying to protect and maintain by going to war with Iran and Iraq know that, and would actively keep Bush from doing something so stupid, if it really was about controlling the oil market.

The actions Bush has been taking in Iran and Iraq have nothing to do with oil or currency.

Elliot

That is the most naïve thing I have ever heard. There are refineries all over the world. You are a banker and you don't understand how money really works and now you say we refine all of the worlds oil or they would have none. OK, I'm convinced, you are just spreading propaganda. You don't even understand how Trade works. The American dollar as the world reserve currency and the way other countries must have it to buy oil. I'm sorry but either you are just here to spread propaganda or you are just naïve. There is no real debate with you. You try to intimidate people by making them unsure and question their stand. Well Bud, that don't work with me. You don't understand enough about the world economy as related to politics or how it all works to understand what I have laid out for you.

GLOBAL: World Oil Refining & Trading Map (oil refineries in the world) (http://www.biz-lib.com/products/ZPEM191.html)

Dear Magprob,

Just curious: When you talk about Israel's "Holocaust on the Palestinian people," are you talking about the same Israel that has Arabic and Islamic citizens who are equal before the law?

Are you talking about the Israel that has Arabic and Islamic political parties in the Knesset?

Are you talking about the Israel that has political proceedings, schools, and road signs with Arabic, English, and Hebrew as the official languages?

Are you talking about the Israel that gave up the Sinai, Gaza, and the Golan Heights and with a neighboring sovereign Palestinian Authority in the West Bank?

Are you talking about the Israel that has more Arabs and Muslims in it than it had before Israel became established as a nation?

When you say that Israel is engaged in a "Holocaust," it sounds to me like you are equating apples and Zyklon-B cyanide pellets.

Dear Magprob,

I don't see where Iran allegedly flooding the world with oil would be a problem.

Heck, I wish the United States would flood itself and the world with oil by getting rid of the environmental restrictions that prevent us from digging and building refineries. I would love to wake up every morning and see an oil rig in my back yard and/or a line of offshore rigs parallel to Carolina Beach or Myrtle Beach. Then, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and every one of the anti-American, terrorist funding OPEC regimes would collapse of their own weight.

In the meantime, just because the Iranian Hitler may not be using a nuclear program for fission or fusion bombs or missiles, that doesn't keep him from using nuclear material for a "dirty bomb." In fact, a "dirty bomb," which disperses radioactive material with conventional explosives, would be far easier to construct and would still inflict mass death.

Nor does the lack of fission and fusion bombs or missiles keep the Iranian Hitler from making biological or chemical weapons.

Regardless of what the NIE report said, the Iranian Hitler and his Islamic henchmen and counterparts want the Planet for themselves, they have explicitly said as much, and they will resort to any means to get their ultimate goal. Lovers of freedom, keep your powder dry!

Does anyone recall how many times the UN sanctioned Saddam's Iraq? Weren't the sanctions pertaining to Saddam's nuclear program and chemical program? All he had to do was allow inspectors to do their job.