I offer up the following that appeared today in Long Island Newsday:

http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-lichri094545033dec09,0,4158803.story?coll=ny-linews-print

http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-nyhen094545032dec09,0,4427736.column?coll=ny-news-columnists

http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-g1time094545035dec09,0,3051163.story

I don't often agree with Ellis Henican's columns, but I think he's right on the money here.

Scott<>

What is wrong with these people?

The city fathers in Birmingham,UK,several years a go,decided to rename the city festivities as "Winterval",so as not to offend anyone.They did.The church,the public,and most people of all faiths.I was bitterly disappointed,as an agnostic,but certainly not objecting to anyone following their faith,I somehow like the US celebration of Festivus.At least at the end of the night you can grapple the party host to the floor,after telling all the guests what you really think about them. :D


Watch the video at this link.Let it load first,then simply press play.Dont forget to turn your speakers on:

http://www.vidlit.com/festivus/

Holy crap - it's a Christmas tree lighting, the symbol of a christian holiday, what the hell did he expect?

That senator is an idiot.

Holy crap - it's a Christmas tree lighting, the symbol of a christian holiday, what the hell did he expect?

That senator is an idiot.
He expected, and I think reasonably so, that a ceremony being held on town property and sponsored by the town government would not be specific to any one religion.

What was idiotic and unreasonable, was his reaction. Rather than make a big deal out of it, he should have just spoken to the priest privately.

Scott<>

He expected, and I think reasonably so, that a ceremony being held on town property and sponsored by the town government would not be specific to any one religion.

So why was a priest presiding? And why were they 'blessing' the tree?

So why was a priest presiding? And why were they 'blessing' the tree?Apparently they had been rotating clergy each year. The "blessing" was the priest's idea though I doubt if the town board had discussed it with him before hand, which was their mistake.

The priest was quoted as having decided to not do something generic, which means he must have considered the issue. He mentioned that different clergy were asked each year. That should have told him that they were rotating for fairness and that he should have been more secular, even though it was billed as a Christmas Tree lighting.

Scott<>

Apparently they had been rotating clergy each year. The "blessing" was the priest's idea though I doubt if the town board had discussed it with him before hand, which was their mistake.

Scott<>
Ah, I see then.

25 December is Christmas. To those I offend, tough. The constitution guarantees my right to free speech and free practice on my religion. It denies government support of Christianity or anti Christian ideas such as homosexualism is an acceptable life style. The equal protection clause prohibits violence against homosexuals as it should.

25 December is Christmas. To those I offend, tough. The constitution guarantees my right to free speech and free practice on my religion. It denies government support of Christianity or anti Christian ideas such as homosexualism is an acceptable life style. The equal protection clause prohibits violence against homosexuals as it should.
Umm what does that have to do with this? Especially the homosexuality part. No where was that brought up.

There are two issues at play here. First, was the politician's reaction reasonable (I say no). Second, was the priest correct in not using a secular blessing (I say that's borderline).

The fact is that this ceremony was being held on TOWN property and was sponsored by the TOWN government. On that basis, the priest would have been more circumspect to use a more secular blessing. However, since it was billed as a Christmas Tree lighting, his action may have been justifiable.

Personnally I think that this is starting to go a little tooo far.
If everyone is going to complain then cancel it, after all the only reason we have a holiday at this time of year is for religion !!!

So stop with the "Happy Holidays" BS and call it as it is CHRISTMAS, after all Nobody moans about Halloween !!!

If you want to play fair then we should celebrate every religious holiday in every nation worldwide, problem there is we'd never get anything done ;)

If you want to play fair then we should celebrate every religious holiday in every nation worldwide, problem there is we'd never get anything done ;)
And we get something done now? <EG>

Scott<>

Refer to anyone who does not immediately agree with you as being uneducated on the matter, lacking in important information, or just plain too stupid to understand your magnificent statements. :eek:

Refer to anyone who does immediately agree with you as being confused on the matter,and that is'nt really what you said. :(

Refer to yourself as totally confused by the two different views above,and you have'nt the faintest idea what the original post was about,but you thought saying something,is better than saying nothing at all :rolleyes:


By the way,why not try and keep the bad guests out of the xmas party.It is from Yahoo,but you dont have to sign in.Just shut the "close frame" notice,at the very bottom on the left side of the page,to make the game fit the screen.Oh,and don't forget to put your speakers on.Watch the instructions first,before you play if you wish.Very funny.

http://www.snowwatch.forumsplace.com/urljump.php?url=http://santas-christmas-party.yahoo.net/

I am not sure if I am missing something here but if the senator rotates clergy every year to do a "religous" holiday ceremony what did he expect the clergy was going to say? I may think too simple but if he didn't want the name Jesus Christ to be mentioned he should have done one of three things 1) mentioned to him before hand as Scott has stated or 2) do not get a clergy to do it or 3) as CurlyBen stated to cancel the whole thing. I know I am going to have flak for this but if government officials think that the gov shouldn't have anything to do with religion then why does the government have the holiday off in the first place? I work for NYS and am grateful for it but maybe the gov shouldn't declare this as a national holiday and only the ones who celebrate it should be priviledged to have it off as the Jewish holidays do. In the end, I agree the senator shouldn't have made the priest look like an idiot and made that statement. What gets me is he was from the priest's congregation so he had every avenue to mention this before hand knowing a priest MAY bring this up.

Only in america can we do a bunch of stupid stuff and call it the American W :cool: :cool: ay!

Hi,
Christmas is just that, birth of Christ. Take "Christ" out of Christmas and what's left... mas.
As I have stated before, and will continue to state, laws were made my minorities, ruling that Gov't and Public Places can't display anthing with the word Christ, and in this case "Christ"mas lights.
It will come a time when all this will be History, and Christians everywhere will be, once again, allowed to practice their faith, without questioning by those who have a soapbox full of laws against us.
There are too many who don't want to "offend" anyone with anything about religion. Even though Christmas is the birth of Christ, there are those who want to forget it, and not allow it to be mentioned, anywhere.
Funny that some very large department store chains "backed down" from their "no display" of the word "Christmas"...
As far as Christmas lights on Public Property, and even on Gov't property, I have seen many of them here in this area. Just the fact that a Senator seems to have missed something shows that traditions are not dead yet!
Merry Christmas to all, and Happy New Year. If I offend you, then it's your problem, and you haven't yet accepted the fact that this is America.

I only read #2. Yes, it was right on target.

Very well put!

I wont get windy with a long response, it is just plain sad that it has all come to this, why can’t each of us celebrate our holidays and be happy for our family and what we have, if it is not your holiday then it does not concern you just more on, Merry Christmas to all and happy new year too. And may YOUR GOD bless you.

I only read #2. Yeah, it was right on. What MORON would ask a Priest to give a Blessing without mentioning Christ.

A Blessing from a Catholic Priest is his asking God/Christ to be there.

And a side note:

While Christmas used to be a Holy Day for only Christians, it is now a Holiday for anyone who wants to be Merry at that time of year.

All are welcome!

So Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

I like the way the whole holiday "debate" is handled in the schools of the city I live in. As part of my job I make presentations to elementary and highschools at least a couple of times a week. At this time of year, the schools are decorated for Christmas, Hannukah, and Ramadan. There is a large muslim population here, with some of the schools being at least 30% muslim. We also have a very high population of First Nations (aboriginal) children, so their celebrations are also included, with sharing circles, smudging, etc. The kids really love it and they get to learn about other cultures, and tolerance of others. I think that's a lot better than choosing just one religion to celebrate, or leaving religion out of the picture all together. Just my opinion.

I like the way the whole holiday "debate" is handled in the schools of the city I live in. As part of my job I make presentations to elementary and highschools at least a couple of times a week. At this time of year, the schools are decorated for Christmas, Hannukah, and Ramadan. There is a large muslim population here, with some of the schools being at least 30% muslim. We also have a very high population of First Nations (aboriginal) children, so their celebrations are also included, with sharing circles, smudging, etc. The kids really love it and they get to learn about other cultures, and tolerance of others. I think that's a lot better than choosing just one religion to celebrate, or leaving religion out of the picture all together. Just my opinion.


It is funny because I drive a bus for a living and at first we were told we could not say Merry Christmas any more so I tried to make sure I knew what holiday was on the calendar so I could be seasonally correct to give my best wishes to all. Then that was not allowed any more so I started with Happy Holidays. This year we where told that if we said anything the last day of school it was to be “enjoy your winter break” this is so, so sad.

I feel for you lilfyre... it's kind of weird and sad to not be able to say ANYTHING...

I really feel fortunate that at least in my city, multiculturalism, and all the religions that go with it, are celebrated and allowed to be celebrated! No one should have to feel bad about their beliefs, least of all children.

Thank you I agree with you too

I am not sure if I am missing something here but if the senator rotates clergy every year to do a "religous" holiday ceremony what did he expect the clergy was going to say? I may think too simple but if he didn't want the name Jesus Christ to be mentioned he should have done one of three things 1) mentioned to him before hand as Scott has stated or 2) do not get a clergy to do it or 3) as CurlyBen stated to cancel the whole thing. I know I am going to have flak for this but if government officials think that the gov shouldn't have anything to do with religion then why does the governement have the holiday off in the first place? I work for NYS and am grateful for it but maybe the gov shouldn't declare this as a national holiday and only the ones who celebrate it should be priviledged to have it off as the Jewish holidays do. In the end, I agree the senator shouldn't have made the priest look like an idiot and made that statement. What gets me is he was from the priest's congregation so he had every avenue to mention this before hand knowing a priest MAY bring this up.
I'm afraid you did miss a few things. First, there is no indication that the politician (he is Town supervisor, not a senator, I may have mistated that) had either picked the priest or talked with him beforehand. That was probably done by town staffers. Second, there was no mention that this was a "religious" holiday ceremony, other than calling it a "Christmas" tree lighting. But if Jewish and Islamic clerics had officiated in the past, then it clearly was not intended as a Christian ceremony. So I do believe the priest overstepped his bounds. It should have been made clear that this was to be a non-denominational ceremony, but I feel the priest should have known that. Third, the politician is Jewish, so he is not a member of the priest's congregation.

But you do bring up a rather interesting point. Should Christmas be a national holiday? It's the only national holiday that has anything to do with religion. The more I think of it, the more I think it shouldn't. However, I also think its too ingrained in the American psyche for this to ever be changed. I think that's one of the reason that the holiday has become so secularized. I think we need to realize that there are two Christmases. There is the religious celebration of the birth of Christ as the son of God. But there is another side. There is also the secular celebration of a winter holiday that is about presents and giving and the awe and smiles of children. While there is, clearly, some crossover between the two, they have to be looked at as separate.

Let me relate something here. I have a p/t gig as mfg's rep. I spend a few hours each week in a retail store answering people's questions about the company's products. I've been provided with stickers that show characters from a recent animated film. I hand these out to little kids during the day. I am totally amazed a the reactions I get. The smiles and pleasure these kids get from a piece of glossy paper 3" in diameter is amazing and heart warming. To me that's a very big part of this holiday, a part that transcends the religious significance to those who believe in Christ.

Scott<>

As I have stated before, and will continue to state, laws were made my minorities, ruling that Gov't and Public Places can't display anthing with the word Christ, and in this case "Christ"mas lights.
Do you listen to yourself? Laws were made by minorities? How can that be when a law needs a majority vote to pass?


It will come a time when all this will be History, and Christians everywhere will be, once again, allowed to practice their faith, without questioning by those who have a soapbox full of laws against us.
There are too many who don't want to "offend" anyone with anything about religion. Even though Christmas is the birth of Christ, there are those who want to forget it, and not allow it to be mentioned, anywhere.
Funny that some very large department store chains "backed down" from their "no display" of the word "Christmas"....
As far as Christmas lights on Public Property, and even on Gov't property, I have seen many of them here in this area. Just the fact that a Senator seems to have missed something shows that traditions are not dead yet!
Merry Christmas to all, and Happy New Year. If I offend you, then it's your problem, and you haven't yet accepted the fact that this is America.
And again, you overreact. No one is denying you the right to practice your faith. No one is coming into your church and saying you can't celebrate the birth of Christ. No one is coming into your home and saying you can't have a tree with religious ornaments or say Merry Christmas to your friends and family. To even make that statement is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding of the issue.

The ONE and ONLY issue here whether government property, government funds or government sponsorship should be used in support of ANY particular religious group. Nothing more nothing less. My feeling is either all or nothing. Here you allow any religion the right to make their displays or none. And there are religions whose displays will be a lot more offensive to Christians then a nativity scene is to non-Christians.

Scott<>

I'm afraid you did miss a few things. First, there is no indication that the politician (he is Town supervisor, not a senator, I may have mistated that) had either picked the priest or talked with him beforehand. That was probably done by town staffers. Second, there was no mention that this was a "religious" holiday ceremony, other than calling it a "Christmas" tree lighting. But if Jewish and Islamic clerics had officiated in the past, then it clearly was not intended as a Christian ceremony. So I do believe the priest overstepped his bounds. It should have been made clear that this was to be a non-denominational ceremony, but I feel the priest should have known that. Third, the politician is Jewish, so he is not a member of the priest's congregation.

But you do bring up a rather interesting point. Should Christmas be a national holiday? Its the only national holiday that has anything to do with religion. The more I think of it, the more I think it shouldn't. However, I also think its too ingrained in the American psyche for this to ever be changed. I think that's one of the reason that the holiday has become so secularized. I think we need to realize that there are two Christmases. There is the religious celebration of the birth of Christ as the son of God. But there is another side. There is also the secular celebration of a winter holiday that is about presents and giving and the awe and smiles of children. While there is, clearly, some crossover between the two, they have to be looked at as separate.

Let me relate something here. I have a p/t gig as mfg's rep. I spend a few hours each week in a retail store answering people's questions about the company's products. I've been provided with stickers that show characters from a recent animated film. I hand these out to little kids during the day. I am totally amazed a the reactions I get. The smiles and pleasure these kids get from a piece of glossy paper 3" in diameter is amazing and heart warming. To me that's a very big part of this holiday, a part that transcends the religious significance to those who believe in Christ.

Scott<>

Scott, sorry about the mistake. I guess in the middle of my rant I got carried away and thought he picked him also went to his congregation. Before I try to make another point I want to say I commend you for not swaying from your points on this matter that from what I have read on other posts are pretty consistent on your points about not having religious ceremonies and such on government property. With that said, I still say the with having clergy being picked it is really hard to not relate to their belief and faith. Again, why pick clergymen and not everyday people or celebrities to do the job? This world is sensitive about what is said and done nowadays we really need to all live in a bubble so we won't offend anyone. I have to say I am offended constantly by what people say and do, but I am strong enough to let it roll off my back. Again, I work in NYS but just because the government shouldn't be having anything to do with religious symbols or ceremonies doesn't give a right for someone to take the name of God in vain (ie. Jesus Christ). This is a common thing and yet to me that is offensive and gives no regard for Christians. If I had presented that to my boss and made a big deal about it, I would be laughed at and rediculed so bad I wouldn't want to take it any furthur. I guess the moral of what I am trying to say is that we have to stop being so offended by what everyone says and does. Sorry for ranting about something kind of off the subject but I feel it needed to be said. I think if this country wasn't so sensitive the supervisor wouldn't have felt he needed to jump up right away and cover for what was said. Instead, he might have said something afterwards. Anyway, I hope I made my point and didn't make things worse.

JD,
I don't necessarily disagree with you. But there is a spirtuality about this time of the year that makes it common for clergy to officiate at such ceremonies. The priest did not have to make his blessing specific to any one religion and that was his choice and his mistake. I would say the same thing if a Rabbi had referred specifically to Jewish worship or an Islamic cleric to Allah.

But I do very much agree that we need to develop thicker skins. That we need to look beyond what people say and look at their motives and reasoning. That's why I think the politician over reacted. I think that priest was just doing what came naturally and had no intention to offend.

When someone wishes me a Merry Christmas I assume they are being sincere about being nice so I respond with a Happy Holiday.

Scott<>

Hi,
Does anyone else feel that Christmas Day, December 25, should NOT be a National Holiday?
ScottGem's post said he thinks it should not be, or at least, think about NOT having it as such!
American Traditions and Beliefs are fast being lost to such thinking.

Hi,
Does anyone else feel that Christmas Day, December 25, should NOT be a National Holiday??
ScottGem's post said he thinks it should not be, or at least, think about NOT having it as such!
American Traditions and Beliefs are fast being lost to such thinking.
Can you explain that Fred? American Tradition is freedom of Religion. So is it fair that Dec 25th is a national holiday, but Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur or Ramadan aren't? How does not having Dec 25th as a national holiday interfere with American Traditions and Beliefs? It might interfere with Christian Traditions and Beliefs, but there is no state religion in America. So explain to me why Christmas should have been made a national Holiday in the first place?

Scott<>

Hi,
Does anyone else feel that Christmas Day, December 25, should NOT be a National Holiday??
ScottGem's post said he thinks it should not be, or at least, think about NOT having it as such!
American Traditions and Beliefs are fast being lost to such thinking.
So how come channukah is not a national holiday? How come the chinese new year is not a national holiday?

So how come channukah is not a national holiday? How come the chinese new year is not a national holiday?
Now that's thinking logically! ;)

Scott<>

Hi,
Does anyone else feel that Christmas Day, December 25, should NOT be a National Holiday??
ScottGem's post said he thinks it should not be, or at least, think about NOT having it as such!
American Traditions and Beliefs are fast being lost to such thinking.
American traditions and beliefs are changing to reflect the changing of the face of America.No longer is the judeo-christian the only thinking in america,as many other minorities have changed the landscape of this country,In many areas of the land the minority has become the majority.Change has been in the wind for a long time and those that must change with it are having a hard time moving over and accepting the fact that America is truly a melting pot of many different traditions and beliefs.Which brings us to the question should Christmas be a national holiday?My opinion ,why not? And along those lines,Ramadan,Rosh Hashanah,Yom Kippur,Ramadan and the Chinese New Year should be national holidays also.In a multicultural nation shouldn't all the cultures be treated the same? :cool:

Great points!

Now that's thinking logically! ;)

Scott<>
Yet the weird part is that Fred is answering questions left, right, and centre this morning and totally bypassing this one. I wonder why?

Even Dr. Phil, who seems pretty conservative by my standards at least, said Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and Happy Hannukah today at the end of his show. I was very impressed! :)