Sorry if I'm picking on any of your favorites...


Six months ago, an out-of-state minister known for prophecy told Oral Roberts University President Richard Roberts he would go through a "major storm" (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071118_1_A1_hAcco43533) but would come through it.

The minister also said, "When you enter your 60th year, you'll step to a new level of ministry you've never known," Roberts recalled in an interview with the Tulsa World.

Roberts celebrated his 59th birthday on Monday and then began his 60th year, six weeks after three former ORU professors filed a lawsuit claiming wrongful termination and alleging the Roberts family has misused ORU and Oral Roberts Ministries money and resources for themselves...

Richard Roberts said he has a hard time imagining the university without a Roberts.

"I'm the face; I'm the voice," he said...

Roberts and his father don't want to see the university split from the ministries or taken over by "the money people," in fear that such steps would point ORU toward becoming a secular college, Roberts said.

"I'm the face; I'm the voice," he said. Excuse me, but is it really about a Roberts? Seems rather self-serving to me, shouldn't his focus be on someone else?

Speaking of "money people" :


Acting on public complaints, Republican Sen. Charles Grassley of the Senate Finance Committee has launched an investigation into alleged financial wrongdoing involving six high-profile televangelists (http://www.amarillo.com/stories/111707/opi_8927844.shtml), all of whom run "non-profit" organizations...

Creflo Dollar, pastor of World Changers Church International, is among those under investigation. He has several Rolls Royces, private jets, a million-dollar home in Atlanta and a $2.5 million Manhattan apartment.

Best-selling author and televangelist Joyce Meyer also is under investigation. Her office headquarters, with its 158,000-square-foot, three-story building and furniture estimated at $5.7 million, was built for $20 million in 2001. Since 1999, Meyer's ministry has reported spending at least $4 million on five homes for Meyer and her four children.

Among the items under Senate investigation are a $23,000 "commode with marble top," a $30,000 conference table and an $11,219 French clock, all purchased for Meyer's ministry headquarters.

Meyer seems unapologetic about her accumulated wealth: "If you stay in your faith, you are going to get paid. I am living now in my reward."

Although Paul and Jan Crouch, founders of Trinity Broadcasting Network, are not under investigation by the committee, they epitomize what it means to wallow in materialism. With a combined annual salary of more than $700,000, the Crouches are among the highest paid in any of the major religious non-profit organizations. Since launching TBN in 1973, they have raised millions through telethons and appearances of popular personalities like Dollar.

TBN raises more than $120 million a year from its viewers, telling them they are "robbing God" if they are not giving to the network. Many of TBN's financial statements have not been made public, so it is difficult to ascertain exactly how the donations are being spent.

However, the Los Angeles Times reported that TBN owns 30 homes across the country, including a couple of mansions in Newport Beach and a Texas ranch home, which they make available to the Crouches.

As Crouch sums up his philosophy: "If my heart really, honestly desires a nice Cadillac ... would there be something terribly wrong with me saying, 'Lord, it is the desire of my heart to have a nice car ... and I'll use it for Your glory'? I think I could do that and in time, as I walked in obedience with God, I believe I'd have it."

I hate to give skeptics more ammunition, but I believe they are right about money-grubbing televangelists living high on the hog. Joyce may have at least one thing right when she said "I am living now in my reward."

Isn't it time to cut off the funding for alleged evangelists that think it's no big deal to have $11,219 French clocks, Rolls Royces and $2.5 million Manhattan apartments while claiming to care about others? Especially those who have the audacity to claim others are "robbing God" for not giving to their "ministries?" What exactly is Christian about soliciting donations for "reaching out in love to a hurting and desperate world (https://shop.joycemeyer.org/estore/MonthlyDonation/monthlydonation.aspx?donid=CSOLG)" while relieving yourself on a $23,000 toilet with a marble top?

Steve

P.S. There are worthy Christian organizations (http://www.worldvision.org/about_us.nsf/child/why_donate?Open&lid=why_donate&lpos=body) to give a little support to - and it's an excellent way to do something better with your dollars this Christmas.

World Vision child sponsorship (http://donate.wvus.org/OA_HTML/xxwvibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=10022&daniel_prod_ses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
World Vision gift catalog (http://donate.wvus.org/OA_HTML/xxwvibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=10024)
Prison Fellowship's Angel Tree (http://www.angeltree.org/site_hmpg.asp)
Samaritan's Purse gift catalog (https://giving.samaritanspurse.org/c-7-gift-catalog.aspx)

I'm about totally fed up with televangelists period. I think that whatever time and space they invented themselves for is now over and done with.

Their "ministry?" Give me a break. They're not "ministering" to anyone. They're standing there in front of the bright lights and cameras mouthing words that they themselves not only do not live by (after all, who of us does?), but even worse, that they seem to have no intention of trying to live by. They are more and more starting to remind me of the Pharisees of Jesus' day--telling all how to live "righteously" while they themselves are rotted and filthy on the inside.

Ministry is not blabbering at people on TV week after week. Oh, sure--preaching the Word is a part of ministry, but it's not the whole kit and caboodle. How many local pastors do you know that only preach? Preach on Sunday and nothing more? No church in it's right mind would put up with that for more than 3 or 4 weeks, tops!

Ministry is meeting the people where they're at--physically and spiritually. It's visiting members in the hospital. By the way, if you really want to shake folks up, pick a few people--strangers--at random in the hospital and visit and pray with and for them. Radical idea, I know. Sounds an awful lot like what Jesus would do, and look at what a troublemaker HE turned out to be... But I digress. Ministry is helping a member in a rough spot get back on his feet. It's walking the Christian through the valleys of doubt, shame, and despair, and helping them find the mountaintop again. It's going to the couple's house where there are marital/family problems. It's BEING Jesus to people who need him. If you really want to get radical, do what my preacher did: He took a young pregnant (and single) lady that was living in a battered women's shelter and ministered to her. Why her and not a half-dozen others, I don't know and neither does he. He and his wife then took this young, beaten, scared girl to live with them in their home until well after she had her baby. They helped her get into college so she could market herself more effectively. Along the way, they led her into a relationship with Christ. They didn't just talk at her once a month, they LIVED at her 24/7. You think those hacks on TV ever invited a poor, unwed mother into their multi-million dollar mansions? I don't know for sure, but I think they probably haven't. Have they lived their lives among the undesirables and untouchables of society? I haven't seen them, and I'm pretty darn undesirable.

Like I said, I think that whatever niche they filled is closed now. Hopefully, more and more folks will get wise and spend their money on better, more worthy causes and ministries.

Unfortunately, televangelists still appeal to (homebound?) senior citizens who are nearing the end of their days and lack the social outlets to help them with clear thinking and discernment. They may get sucked in by promises of love and forgiveness and heaven if donations are mailed in.

I get so sick of televangelists. Have watched TBN and Jan Crouch's pink hair and gold dripping from her neck and wrists and wonder - if she sold that and gave the proceeds to a children's shelter in Darfur, that might keep some children fed and clothes and healthy for years. TBN has some good programs on but many are just crying evangelists wanting your dollar.

Did not know about Joyce Meyer's. That is a shock to me but it should not be. Creflo Dollar - another guy that makes my skin itch when I see him. Same with Benny Hinn. About Oral Roberts and his son - sad, sad, sad. It is all about them, isn't it, and not about a real ministry? Makes me think of the exposes that were done on Jim and Tammy Faye Baker and Jimmy Swaggart (remember the woman who was eating canned dog food and sending him money?).

Ministry is meeting the people where they're at--physically and spiritually. It's visiting members in the hospital. By the way, if you really want to shake folks up, pick a few people--strangers--at random in the hospital and visit and pray with and for them. Radical idea, I know. Sounds an awful lot like what Jesus would do, and look at what a troublemaker HE turned out to be.... But I digress. Ministry is helping a member in a rough spot get back on his feet. It's walking the Christian through the valleys of doubt, shame, and despair, and helping them find the mountaintop again. It's going to the couple's house where there are marital/family problems. It's BEING Jesus to people who need him. If you really want to get radical, do what my preacher did: He took a young pregnant (and single) lady that was living in a battered women's shelter and ministered to her. Why her and not a half-dozen others, I don't know and neither does he. He and his wife then took this young, beaten, scared girl to live with them in their home until well after she had her baby. They helped her get into college so she could market herself more effectively. Along the way, they led her into a relationship with Christ. They didn't just talk at her once a month, they LIVED at her 24/7. You think those hacks on TV ever invited a poor, unwed mother into their multi-million dollar mansions? I don't know for sure, but I think they probably haven't. Have they lived their lives among the undesirables and untouchables of society? I haven't seen them, and I'm pretty darn undesirable.

Like I said, I think that whatever niche they filled is closed now. Hopefully, more and more folks will get wise and spend their money on better, more worthy causes and ministries.

That is awesome what your pastor did. I still believe there are far more pastors and ministries that are "BEING Jesus to people who need him" than there are scammers living in their reward now, but I know we can do better... and to be honest I know I need to start with me.

I get so sick of televangelists. Have watched TBN and Jan Crouch's pink hair and gold dripping from her neck and wrists and wonder - if she sold that and gave the proceeds to a children's shelter in Darfur, that might keep some children fed and clothes and healthy for years. TBN has some good programs on but many are just crying evangelists wanting your dollar.

Did not know about Joyce Meyer's. That is a shock to me but it should not be. Creflo Dollar - another guy that makes my skin itch when I see him. Same with Benny Hinn. About Oral Roberts and his son - sad, sad, sad. It is all about them, isn't it, and not about a real ministry? Makes me think of the exposes that were done on Jim and Tammy Faye Baker and Jimmy Swaggart (remember the woman who was eating canned dog food and sending him money?).

I've tried to watch TBN a time or two and could not get past how ridiculously fake it all looked right off the bat. What's sad is that so many people are searching for answers and seeking hope and they get someone with a $23,000 toilet asking for money and a guy with 30 homes telling them they're "robbing God."

They have some good family based films they show, like the Christy movies and films made from the Jeannette Okie books. Sometimes the old Hollywood ones like Ben-Hur and Moses. But for ministers - I would say 90% of what I have seen I would not send a dollar to. I used to watch Carman but I do not know just how honest he is either.

They start small, too...
Years ago I lived in an rather nice apartment complex that had a large clubhouse. That clubhouse was available to rent to virtually anyone, in or out of the community. It overlooked a large lake and a beautiful fountain was right next to the deck and right next to the pool. Very nice backdrop!
So a wanna-be telebabblist rents the clubhouse, sets up the video to capture all this splendor... while he preaches to an empty room!!

Joyce Meyers living her reward. When you do things to get praise from man and get rich from man using God's name, you may be living your reward, and it's all the reward you'll get.
Matthew 6:19-21:
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

<moved to Member Discussions>

So organized religion let you down? Send your money to JEEZ-US P.O. Box 7734 Tulsa, Oklahoma.
I just don't get it. These idiots can't do a thing for your spiritual growth. You were born with that power inside you. They don't want you to know that though. They want you to keep coming around with your dollars.
When will people learn to stay home on Sunday morning, sit in a comfy chair, shut their eyes and just listen for GOD to speak to them? When will people just do that everyday. If they did, GOD would tell them to stay away from Oral Roberts and to stop giving him your money! Go out on the street and take a homeless guy to lunch. Buy him a nice sleeping bag. Help him find a warm place to wash his feet.

While it may seem bad, look at the private sector at Presidents of Corporations, and see if they don't make more in there jobs, people who are the heads of muli million dollar companies always earn good. Should ministers be treated less?

Yes, preachers should make less than corporate officers. Church money should feed a lot more people than just the preacher. The money should buy blankets and shoes instead of European cars. If a preacher is only interested in money, then he or she should go to work as a CEO.

While it may seem bad, look at the private sector at Presidents of Corporations, and see if they don't make more in there jobs, people who are the heads of muli million dollar companies always earn good. Should ministers be treated less??
I have no problem with heads of multi million dollar companies earning good. They admit that they keep higher rewards, but should the head of a church, who's congregation lives in near shanty conditions, own two Cadillac's, and be haughty?

I think not.

I have no problem with heads of multi million dollar companies earning good. They admit that they keep higher rewards, but should the head of a church, who's congregation lives in near shanty conditions, own two Cadillac's, and be haughty?

I think not.

So what has changed. Look at Vatican City. Pure opulence. They are considered a country.
Go to Salt Lake City and check out world headquarters. It's always been that way. :mad:

Smaller churches pay less, larger churches in the city may pay their pastors 70 to 100 K a year, they have perhaps 1000 members or so, and up it goes,

There are in most churches, areas where you specify where you want the money to go.

Missions, buiding projects, church expenses. Even Pual tells us that ministers are due their pay. This is of course at times excessive, but again, their board of directors decide to pay them those incomes.

To expect the pastors to live homeless or close to it, is pure sillyness and normally expressed by those that want to find reasons to attach christianity.

Our order requires most members to hold outside jobs, to support them, but then we are not available 24 hours a day to visit those in hospitals, we don't make staff meetings, and so on. So people complain about that also.

What also was not shown, was how much each of those multi million dollar groups gave to pay for TV ministry ( that cost is also ministry, since it brings the gospel on TV which is not free) Now does it show what percent is used for the pastor, it may not a small percentage of total income of the group.

Well I just can't wait to visit Jim Bakers new Heritage wonderland when it opens!

While it may seem bad, look at the private sector at Presidents of Corporations, and see if they don't make more in there jobs, people who are the heads of muli million dollar companies always earn good. Should ministers be treated less??

I'm all for taking care of those in the ministry, we make it a point to do so - but $23,000 toilets, $11,000 clocks and 30 homes is shameful. I guess I just have a conscience, if I made my living on other people's donations I would have to be much more responsible with that money.

To expect the pastors to live homeless or close to it, is pure sillyness and normally expressed by those that want to find reasons to attach christianity.

I agree with that. I have a friend who was a candidate for a church in a small town a couple of months ago, he loved it, they loved him - and then offered him a mere pittance to be their pastor. He said no thanks.


What also was not shown, was how much each of those multi million dollar groups gave to pay for TV ministry ( that cost is also ministry, since it brings the gospel on TV which is not free) Now does it show what percent is used for the pastor, it may not a small percentage of total income of the group.

And that's why I recommended groups like World Vision that prove they are good stewards and are open to accountability for their finances.

I believe some of the ministers today has lost their first love which is God's Word and solely look for what is in it for them. But on the other hand God does intend for the church to provide pastors in their needs .But I don't believe big fine mansions and cars is in the meaning of needs. We have had several ministers come and preach for us that will turn away any monetary gifts because they felt being an evangelist for the Lord that God will supply. These are men that have jobs and not in it just for the money . I wonder how many would actually go into ministry without looking to see how much they will earn.

I believe some of the ministers today has lost their first love which is God's Word and solely look for what is in it for them. But on the other hand God does intend for the church to provide pastors in their needs .But I don't believe big fine mansions and cars is in the meaning of needs. We have had several ministers come and preach for us that will turn away any monetary gifts because they felt being an evangelist for the Lord that God will supply. These are men that have jobs and not in it just for the money . I wonder how many would actually go into ministry without looking to see how much they will earn.

I wonder that, too.

From the standpoint of an ordained minister of many years: What is sad is that the con artists give good ministers a black eye, and worse, cause the Name of Jesus to be despised. However, no one who pryerfully reads the Bible will be deceived, because they will find that most of the TV ministries are based on lies, not Scripture. For example, those who knew their Bibles did not follow Jim Jones to a mass suicide or David Koresh to a flaming death. The point? Read your Bible!

Your right Speech, that is shameful, and Christians should be the first to point this out.
Good going.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

As He taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."

My belief is that there may be some preachers on TV who are honest God fearing preachers, but if your watching some one who asks for money, turn the TV off and find a Bible teaching church.