I am 26 and Jewish. I was raised partially by my family but mostly in several foster homes, with each one being of a different religious persuasion. First I was in a home where I went to a Chabad school (orthodox jews). In this home, we prayed and studied the torah every day, kept glatt kosher, I had to wear a dress all the time, etc. Then I was switched to a home with more secular Jews who sent me to public school, we didn't keep kosher, and we only went to syngogue once or twice a year. Then I spent a year in a home where my foster parents were Baptists and sent me to the school run by their church, which was very strict, and kids got paddled. Then I was moved yet again and went to a private Roman Catholic dayschool. Then I went to another Bible Christian home, but much weirder than the Baptist one. There I was prayed over regulary and my foster parents told me I had demons. Finally I got sent to a boarding school (Catholic, run by nuns) for grades 8-12.

After I graduated from high school, I moved out on my own and went to university, but religious-wise I've been very confused. For a while I went to mass and considered converting to Catholicism, mainly because I had such a good experience at my boarding school. Then I got involved with a fundamentalist Christian group and was baptised in the river and born again, etc... and that lasted for about a year. I spent another year trying to be an orthodox Jew but failed miserably. Then I tried being a more secular Jew, but that also has not worked out. I've dabbled a bit in wicca and buddhism, but nothing came of that, either. For the past 2 years or so now, I've been sort of an agnostic... not that I identify as such, but I don't attend religious services or pray or anything.

I'm just wondering how normal it is for someone to change their beliefs so often as I have? I am pretty stable in other areas of my life. Any comments would be appreciated!

Some people might make you out to be a flake,Be lucky you didn't go in for one of the "faiths" that requires apostates to die.
Sounds to me as if you are looking to meet people and make friends.
Sometimes it takes time to understand you don't want or need a religion , you want a relationship with God.
That doesn't happen in a church . A church comes in handy when you want to serve God.

Thanks for your reply. Yes I'm glad I didn't go for a more "dangerous" faith at some point... when I was younger I considered some more cult-like groups but luckily stayed away!

I really appreciate what you've said about meeting people and making friends. I've been moved around a lot and have no extended family, so I was suspecting that it was a matter of trying to "belong" somewhere... but I've never had anyone say it before so thanks! :)

Sounds to me as if you are looking to meet people and make friends.
Sometimes it takes time to understand you don't want or need a religion , you want a relationship with God.
That doesn't happen in a church . A church comes in handy when you want to serve God.

I agree with KAOSKTRL that you need a relationship with God. One thing that struck me is that you said "Then I got involved with a fundamentalist Christian group and was baptised in the river and born again, etc... and that lasted for about a year." What happened with that? I don't want to put you on the spot but I am curious as to what happened with it that it didn't work out? I understand if you don't want to answer this but it will better understand the situation. By the way, it is very normal to change your beliefs like you have. There are many different religions out there they may have empty promises and even emptyness in general that one can easily become confused. One thing I would like to add though, if you were truly born again, you are always born again. This is what having a relationship with God means.

Thanks jduke for your reply. I'll try to be brief as to why I quit that church... it's a long story though! Basically the pastor was accused of some unsavoury activities - stealing money and hitting on some of the younger girls in the congregation. I'm not sure if the stealing money part is true, but he could be a bit inappropriate at times. Anyway, half of the congregation thought he was guilty and the other half thought he was innocent, so the church split. It wasn't a very big church to begin with, only about 100 congregants, so we were all pretty close-nit. After the split people on either side were very "un-Christian" to each other. I had been friends with people on both sides of the fight, and it was really painful for me. If I went to the services of one church, the people of the other church would find out within a couple of days and then not speak to me. One lady un-invited me to a birthday party she was having for her daughter who had been my friend. When there was a death in the congregation, people from "the other side" were called and told they were not welcome at the funeral. I finally decided to sever all ties because I couldn't stand all the fighting and hatred. The fight had really "burned" me too in the sense that I didn't want to go to another church, for fear that the same thing would happen again. I felt really disillusioned. Hope that answers your question. :)

And as far as needing a relationship with God right now, I'm not sure... but thanks for your thoughts.

Orange, thanks for filling me in. I understand why you wuld be leary of joining another church at this time. I assure you not all Christian churches are like that. That might even turn me away in the beginning. Please, kep searching, don't give up. If you sincerely want to know God or even what to believe, ask Him. Seriously, He will find a way to have you know Him personnally. If you ever have any questions you can PM me. I try to be very simple and not look down on anyone.

I think Kaos said it best. A relationship with God is more important than a religion. Try sitting on your own, with no distractions and reading the gospel (good news) of John, or the letter of 1st John they are very relational texts and speak about the love of God and what His son Yehoshua has done for us.

Orange it seems you have been on a very long journey and still looking for answers.I am sure God has blessed you and shown you many things you needed to see.It is obvious that He was with you during your journey.Look within to see the God that you will understand.Quiet meditation and prayer has helped me over the years to get closer to the God of my understanding and to see the world for what is ,its not perfect nor are the people in it but if you love Him in your heart he will always be with you as a guiding light.After all you've been through and seen ,to be so grounded is truly a blessing from Him.I've seen more fortunate go off because they couldn't appreciate what God has given them.Follow your heart and be open to GOD's guidance and know your not alone on ;) your journey. ;)

Sage and talaniman, thanks very much for the replies. I was sort of feeling like a freak for all the searching I've been doing, but you've made me feel that it's a little bit normal at least! I will try to remain open to the possibility of God existing. Like I said earlier, right now I'm not sure, but it can't hurt to think about it. :)

Some say Orange, that the destination is not the goal, but rather the Journey.

My own opinion... It is impossible for the finite to completely understand the nature of the infinite. All we can do is approximate it and walk the path of uncovering it knowing we, nor any human, can fully reveal it... yet we must choose to keep walking.

I am 26 and Jewish. I was raised partially by my family but mostly in several foster homes, with each one being of a different religious persuasion. First I was in a home where I went to a Chabad school (orthodox jews). In this home, we prayed and studied the torah every day, kept glatt kosher, I had to wear a dress all the time, etc. Then I was switched to a home with more secular Jews who sent me to public school, we didn't keep kosher, and we only went to syngogue once or twice a year. Then I spent a year in a home where my foster parents were Baptists and sent me to the school run by their church, which was very strict, and kids got paddled. Then I was moved yet again and went to a private Roman Catholic dayschool. Then I went to another Bible Christian home, but much weirder than the Baptist one. There I was prayed over regulary and my foster parents told me I had demons. Finally I got sent to a boarding school (Catholic, run by nuns) for grades 8-12.

After I graduated from highschool, I moved out on my own and went to university, but religious-wise I've been very confused. For a while I went to mass and considered converting to Catholicism, mainly because I had such a good experience at my boarding school. Then I got involved with a fundamentalist Christian group and was baptised in the river and born again, etc... and that lasted for about a year. I spent another year trying to be an orthodox Jew but failed miserably. Then I tried being a more secular Jew, but that also has not worked out. I've dabbled a bit in wicca and buddhism, but nothing came of that, either. For the past 2 years or so now, I've been sort of an agnostic... not that I identify as such, but I don't attend religious services or pray or anything.

I'm just wondering how normal it is for someone to change their beliefs so often as I have? I am pretty stable in other areas of my life. Any comments would be appreciated!


Based on your early life experience, I'd say your confusion is normal. You are what should be called a 'seeker.' That is, one who is seeking a siritual and religious path that best helps herself to express herself most completely. Religious faith is one of the most personal aspects of an individual.

Because there is so much to choose from, your journey could be a long one, but don't let that stop you from seeking your spiritual home.



MORGANITE



:)

orange... I also agree with KAOS, and Sage.
I am a Christian who left a church long ago because of a "split". I still hold on to my relationship with God even though I do not attend any services. I have a difficult time with an "organized" religion, per se. ButI have also kept up a relationship with a few friends I met in that church. God has never turned His back on me. I had a very difficult time a couple of years ago and He literallly performed a miracle in my life. His faithfulness is there even when mine isn't.
He will NEVER EVER forsake you. You just have to let Him do the work and so many times we try to do it under our own power and fall flat on our faces.
His Love and Grace are truly amazing

Thanks Trupolitik, Morganite and wwrwtw - sorry I didn't reply sooner, I didn't realize anyone else had responded to the thread! Anyway, thanks very much for your help. I appreciate it. :)

Orange -

Hello, So you have experienced many different cultures and religions is actually a good thing. Seeing different options and difference in teachings. I have been brought up as a catholic but I also went to different churches of the same denomination and also went to different denominations. I am always open in going to different denominations and might try them out but for myself personally I always come back to the Catholic church. Even different catholic churches some are good and some are not. It all depends on the teachers. I do believe that prayer is very important. As far as where you fit in or feel more comfortable in. If you throughout your whole life felt comfortable with one thing mostly and has helped you the most spiritually then my advice to you is to stay with the one the helps you spiritually the most and to increase your strength in life. There is nothing wrong with having experiances in different churches and denominations and religions. Someone needs to also becarefull not to get involved in cults as well.



Joe

Orange -

Hello, So you have experianced many different cultures and religions is actually a good thing. Seeing different options and difference in teachings. I have been brought up as a catholic but I also went to different churches of the same denomination and also went to different denominations. I am always open in going to different denominations and might try them out but for myself personally I always come back to the Catholic church. Even different catholic churches some are good and some are not. It all depends on the teachers. I do believe that prayer is very important. As far as where you fit in or feel more comfortable in. If you throughout your whole life felt comfortable with one thing mostly and has helped you the most spiritually then my advice to you is to stay with the one the helps you spiritually the most and to increase your strength in life. There is nothing wrong with having experiances in different churches and denominations and religions. Someone needs to also becarefull not to get involved in cults as well.



Joe


Cults are ordinary religions such as the Roman Catholic Church. Why do you caution not to get involved in it?




MORGANITE

:)

There is a big difference between established religions and cults.

You can't really "try" to be something, you either are or you are not.

First there is a huge difference between Chrsitianity and Jewish faith.
If you have accepted Christ as your savior and really believe it, then you have to be a Christian, There are Christians who follow Jewish Customs, not a lot but there are some

Religion is a matter of belief and faith, not a issue where it is something we were at birth, it is not something we do because of our parents or friends. It is certainly something something that comes from what we believe.

So without "thinking" what is your belief on Christ. That is were you heart is.

Thanks Fr. Chuck. Yes I realize the difference between Judaism and Christianity, and I would never try to do both at the same time! I am Jewish by birth (Ashkenazi). Being Jewish isn't just a religion... there is some ethnicity to it as well. At some point I will decide which religion I am, but for now I'm not really sure what I want... I think right now I would define myself as a secular Jew / agnostic. Anyway thanks very much for your comments.

And re: the discussion on cults, a cult brainwashes you, alienates you from family and friends who are not part of the cult, keeps you out of mainstream society, controls your life and quite often your finances, and often asks you to do things which are not safe. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't do any of those things.

There is a big difference between established religions and cults.

A 'cult' is defined as any religious movement, sect, or denomination. To make 'cult' mean something different, particular, or dark, one has to redefine the word to satisfy one's particular prejudices. When it is used by person of one religious tradition to this thos of another, it sets off alarm signals, presages persecution, and invites distortion to maintain distance between self and those desgnated as cult members. It is semantic doodling used for pejorative and polemic ends.


MORGANITE



You will see from the names of the websites what the motives of the definers of 'cult' are. It should give pause for thought.

# adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
# fad: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season"
# a system of religious beliefs and rituals; "devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"

www.wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


# In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult


# In traditional usage, the cult of a religion, quite apart from its sacred writings ("scriptures"), its theology or myths, or the personal faith of its believers, is the totality of external religious practice and observance, the neglect of which is the definition of impiety. Cult is literally the "care" owed to the god and the shrine. ...

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult


# A religious group that follows a particular theological system. In the context of Christianity, and in particular, CARM, it is a group that uses the Bible but distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause salvation to be unattainable. A few examples of cults are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Christadelphians, Unity, Religious Science, The Way International, and the Moonies. (See also Cults)

www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_c-d.htm


# (cult) (kult) a system of treating disease based on some special and unscientific theory of disease causation.

www.merckmedicus.com/pp/us/hcp/thcp_dorlands_content.jsp


# Veneration ( or honoring ) of a saint expressed in public acts, local or universal, and formally approved by the Pope.

www.ichrusa.com/saintsalive/glossary.htm


# A religious group which denies the essential doctrines of Christianity. The term is usually reserved for groups founded after 1750.

www.dtl.org/trinity/misc/glossary.htm


# A following of people.

www.britishcouncil.org/ukinfocus-music-glossary.htm


# (noun) often attributive [French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL]; First appeared 1617

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system (any system) of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object ...

www.contecult.com/glossary.htm

There is, as Polyphemus said, more to this than meets the eye. :)

And re: the discussion on cults, a cult brainwashes you, alienates you from family and friends who are not part of the cult, keeps you out of mainstream society, controls your life and quite often your finances, and often asks you to do things which are not safe. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't do any of those things.

Ancient Israelite religion was cultic.

Your definition is a pejorative one designed solely to do many of the things you accuse cults of doing. Your definition:

* brainwashes you
* alienates you from family and friends who are not part of the cult
*keeps you out of mainstream society
* controls your life and quite often your finances
* asks you to do things which are not safe.

You are the hapless victim of everything on your list! For example:

'Brainwashed' because you see one and one only definition of the word 'cult' and that is a wrong one.

'Alienated' because you build an impenetrable wall between you and those you call 'cultists.'

'Kept out of the Mainstream' because mainstreamers understand what 'cult' means without the need to squeeze it into a tight little self-serving definition.

"Controlled' because you are not free to exlore the word 'cult' in its full range of semantic possibilities.

'Asks you to be unsafe' because it causes you to categorise some people as of less worth than others for fictional and illogical reasons. The 20th century has a very frightening illustration of what follows that kind of thinking.

Finally,

'The Roman Catholic Church doesn't do any of those things.'

"Brainwashes: - The Catholic Church Indoctrinates. Pejorisers call that brainwashing. Take catechical lessons and find out for yourself. There is only one right answer to the questions. If you think outside the box you are a heretic and subject to the punishment reserved for heretics.

"Alienates" See below.

"Keeps you out of the mainstream" Being a Catholic sets you apart from the mainstream of Protestant Christianity because Catholics aver that the Pope is the supreme head of all Christians, the Vicar of Christ on the earth, he sits in Peter's Chair, speaking as Peter would have spoken, and he is the earthly representative and agent of Jesus Christ. The majority of Christians are Protestants and do not accept any of that.

"Controls" All religions exercise control, and the Catholic is no more free from the demands of the Catholic Church than any member of any other denomination who is a practicing Christian withing his particular cult, sect, movement, group, or denomination.

"Asks you to be unsafe" Birth contron by any of the safer mehtods, sheaths, foams, IUDs, vasectomy, and tube ties are forbidden. Continuous pregnancies take their toll on the health of the mother. Abortion for any reason is forbidden. The use of mechanical barriers to prevent the spread of STDs is forbidden.

My position is not anti-Catholic. It is pro-truth. It is in that spirit and understanding that I offer it.



MORGANITE


:)

There are 2 definitions of the word cult.
#1 and the most popular usage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
#2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_%28religion%29

The RC church is NOT a cult in the first sense. Using the "cult" word usually implies the first meaning making the reader balk at the statement "Cults are ordinary religions such as the Roman Catholic Church". If Morganite knew full well he was using the second lesser known usage then he goading the readers into an unnecessary discussion. But we have all seen what happens when we attempt to disagree with Morganite.

NeedKarma, Thanks for the links! I was aware of the second, lesser-known usage of the word "cult"... but like you said, most people would be referring to the more common definition. I'm really not interested in arguing semantics with anyone, especially since I have a good friend who used to be in a cult of the first definition, and seen how much he and his family have suffered.

There are 2 definitions of the word cult.
#1 and the most popular usage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
#2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_%28religion%29

The RC church is NOT a cult in the first sense. Using the "cult" word usually implies the first meaning making the reader balk at the statement "Cults are ordinary religions such as the Roman Catholic Church". If Morganite knew full well he was using the second lesser known usage then he goading the readers into an unnecessary discussion. But we have all seen what happens when we attempt to disagree with Morganite.


When someone uses words capable of several meanings, they ought to 'unpack' their terms. That would remove any possibility of misunderstanding.

The most popular usage of the word CULT is not the pejorative term, except among certain religious groups who use it to to this and speak ill of certain other religious groups with which they disagree. "CULT" is an ancient word to which the nasty sense is a very recent extension.

Words do change currency, but when serious academics, social scientists, and sociologists of religion use the word CULT, they do not use it in the cheap and tawdry way that the so-called anti-cult ministries use it.


<I>But we have all seen what happens when we attempt to disagree with Morganite</I>

MORGANITE has not prevented anyone from disagreeing. But I will not be prevented from freely expressing my opinions. That is the purpose of this site. It is not your playground or your pulpit.

If it is your intention to stifle opposition to your own ideas, and to prevent freedom of speech, then perhaps it is not MORGANITE you ought to be concerned with.

I respect others' views when they are not my own, but your petty comment - "But we have all seen what happens when we attempt to disagree with Morganite" - signifies that you are intolerant of oppoition or contradiction.


What kind of debate is it if you are to insist that everyone agrees with NEEDKARMA or be denounced and in an insidious and thinly disguised way?

If you want to discuss matters, then discuss them, but for goodness sake stop acting like a spoiled brat whenever someone offers an opinion that you do not share.


MORGANITE


:eek:

There are 2 definitions of the word cult.



Two definitions? I see now where your problem lies.


"A little Learning is a dang'rous Thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring.
For sipping doth but fuddle up the brain,
But drinking deep doth clear it up again"



Definitions of cult:

* adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
* fad: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal;
* a system of religious beliefs and rituals; e.g. "the Roman Catholic cult of the Blessed Virgin Mary"
* In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream.
* In traditional usage, the cult of a religion, quite apart from its sacred writings ("scriptures"), its theology or myths, or the personal faith of its believers, is the totality of external religious practice and observance, the neglect of which is the definition of impiety.
*Cult is literally the "care" owed to the god and the shrine, such as the Temple in Judaism.
* A religious group that follows a particular theological system.
* In the context of polemical Christianity, and in particular, CARM and other "anti-cult" ministries, such as Saints Alive in Jesus, Christian research Institute, Reachout Trust (ROT), Utah Lighthouse Ministries, and hundreds mnore like them who sell books and videotapes to Christians they have managed to frighten, it is a group that uses the Bible but distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause salvation to be unattainable.

According to these groups, examples of cults are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Christadelphians, Unity, Religious Science, The Way International, and the Moonies. In some Fundamental protestant movements, Roman catholics are also called 'cults,' and salvation is denied for them unless they become Protestants.

If you think they are wrong about the RCC, then they could be wrong about a lot more of those they condemn. Yes?

* (cult) (kult) a system of treating disease based on some special and unscientific theory of disease causation.
* Veneration ( or honoring ) of a saint expressed in public acts, local or universal, and formally approved by the Pope. More Roman Catholics in the 'cult' world that you say they do not inhabit! (The anti-Mormon outfit led by idiot ex-Momron Ed Decker - Saints Alive in Jesus - considers the RCC to be an occult demonic cult. Is Decker right or are you right?

* A religious group which denies the essential doctrines of Christianity. The term is usually reserved for groups founded after 1750.
* A following of people.
* (noun) often attributive [French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL];

First appeared 1617

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP Such as the RCC and Baptists, etc.

2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents Such as the RCC and the Lutherans

3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents Regarded by who as spurious? Who gets to decide?

4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health ~s>

5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object ... Such as Jesus Christ and his teachings?



Before you try to trounce someone with your superior knowledge -
There are 2 definitions of the word cult. - you ought at least do a little research to avoid looking foolish when you attack another person.

These subjects are sufficiently serious to deserve our best attention, wihthout letting niggles about the personalities of contributors become the engines that drive input.




MORGANITE


"Let there be light"

As you see many posters have an opinion and many points of view when it comes to their belief system or faith. We all reach our spiritual system in different ways, following many different paths.There is no right or wrong way to get to the God of your understanding only that you take the journey and find your own place that is comfortable to you.For many of us this is a lifetime journey that we learn as we go and grow.There is no need to be confused by definitions or declarations because you will encounter many different opinions of right and wrong.The beauty of it is you get to make up your own mind in chosing the path you take.I believe when you meet your maker you will be alone in his judgement and all the opinions of scholars and learned men will make no difference what so ever.You will be judged by Him and Him only for your own actions.Follow your own heart. :cool:

NeedKarma, Thanks for the links! I was aware of the second, lesser-known usage of the word "cult"... but like you said, most people would be referring to the more common definition. I'm really not interested in arguing semantics with anyone, especially since I have a good friend who used to be in a cult of the first definition, and seen how much he and his family have suffered.
You're welcome. I hope that your friend is on the road to finding him/herself again. The word "cult" is seldom used in a favourable light and for good reason: its connotation over the years has changed to mean all the negative aspects detailed in that first link. To say that the RCC or any religion is a cult without specifying the usage of the term seems to be an attempt to inflame the readers for one reason or another - like you mentioned it's a catfight over semantics and who has time for that.

Cheers.

As you see many posters have an opinion and many points of view when it comes to their belief system or faith. We all reach our spiritual system in different ways, following many different paths.There is no right or wrong way to get to the God of your understanding only that you take the journey and find your own place that is comfortable to you.For many of us this is a lifetime journey that we learn as we go and grow.There is no need to be confused by definitions or declarations because you will encounter many different opinions of right and wrong.The beauty of it is you get to make up your own mind in chosing the path you take.I believe when you meet your maker you will be alone in his judgement and all the opinions of scholars and learned men will make no difference what so ever.You will be judged by Him and Him only for your own actions.Follow your own heart. :cool:

How good it is to read your enlightened views on our separate spiritual paths.






MORGANITE



:)