"Despite the fact that I have morals and values, I don't commit crimes, I'm a good person, I contribute to society and my community, I have a family, etc, that's not enough for you. You insist I must believe to be "good" in your eyes. How about basing your opinion of someone based off of their actions instead of their beliefs? How about respecting the differences people have, and keep your religion to yourself when you encounter someone who is satisfied with their spiritual self?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the typical response from atheist/ agnostics/ non- beliver's.

I might also add that a lot will also state that Christians are hypocrites because they are judgemental and don't lead lives any "better" than non-believer's. The divorce rate, Ted Haggard, the fall of televangelists are prime examples. And I don't dispute these examples.

Then we are told there is no scientific "proof" of a God, which I believe comes down to interpretation of the same facts.


SO why should they believe? What is the difference?

I did not want to intrude on their "atheist" thread over on spirituality.


As a Christian, I have some thought on this, but I want to hear from you all brothers and sisters in Christ.







Grace and Peace

I agree with you. I'm christian, but not your typical. I embrace certain beliefs while I despise others and even substitute some with what I believe to be the most moral.

??

Sounds like you should be addressing this to someone in particular. Worse yet, you are making blanket statements that are not true and unfair.

... like what it sounds like you are complaining about.

"Despite the fact that I have morals and values, I don't commit crimes, I'm a good person, I contribute to society and my community, I have a family, etc, that's not enough for you. You insist I must believe to be "good" in your eyes. How about basing your opinion of someone based off of their actions instead of their beliefs? How about respecting the differences people have, and keep your religion to yourself when you encounter someone who is satisfied with their spiritual self?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the typical response from atheist/ agnostics/ non- beliver's.

I might also add that alot will also state that Christians are hypocrites because they are judgemental and don't lead lives any "better" than non-believer's. The divorce rate, Ted Haggard, the fall of televangelists are prime examples. And I don't dispute these examples.

Then we are told there is no scientific "proof" of a God, which I believe comes down to interpretation of the same facts.


SO why should they believe? What is the difference?

I did not want to intrude on their "atheist" thread over on spirituality.





As a Christian, I have some thought on this, but I want to hear from you all brothers and sisters in Christ.







Grace and Peace

Thanks INthebox, I am all to familiar with this response. I find it very difficult to relate on any sort of level with this mindset. I have been trying to "put the shoe on the other foot" so to speak and see it from the other side. What I have boiled it down to is that we (as christians) will just always find resistance from the world when we discuss the bible, Jesus, God, salvation, etc. We know Jesus did to the point of death and so did many others after him. We will always be portrayed as "shoving" it down there throats when we state our beliefs but when they do we should be more open minded.

I'm addressing to this to Christians in general.

I'm asking a question that is posed by members to other members on past Christianity threads and on


https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/spirituality/atheists-do-not-believe-how-111864.html

I'm sorry if my question is obtuse.

Perhaps I'm only making a statement and that should be on the members board and not posed as a questions specific to Christians.


Please bear with me.

I think the difference is a recognition for the need for being forgiving and being forgiven by God.

There are others I can think of.






Grace and peace

I made the post, is there something you would like to say to me directly?

One thing many people forget is that Christians didn't make the rules. We only had them revealed to us by God. Those that don't like the rules need to take it up with God, not Christians.

I made the post, is there something you would like to say to me directly?

No, we don't need your athiestic input. I think he specifically stated he wanted to hear from other fellow christians.

For the record, I want to apologize to Jilleanleab for not referencing her statement and perhaps taking it out of context.





Grace and Peace

No, we dont need your athiestic imput. i think he specifically stated he wanted to hear from other fellow christians.


This is precisely the point, Christians can be worse or better when it comes to dealing with our fellow human beings , especially those thave different beliefs or lifestyles.

What makes us different if we are going to do the same things ?

If non-believer's want to make positive or negative comments, that is fine by me.






Grace and Peace

Remember, inthebox, that Christ Himself taught that we would be persecuted.

We can only act as we believe and "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." 1 Peter 3:15

Romans 3:23 (New King James Version)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

God tells us that none of us are "good". Also Jesus said:
Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

We are also told that:
2 Corinthians 2:14-16 (New King James Version)
14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. 15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?

We cannot change the minds of those whose hearts are set against the LORD.

Inthebox, I agree with you 100%, we as Christians don't always set a good example and that is why I think a lot of people may be cynical of Christianity because a lot of us don't practice what we preach. We are all called to be ambassadors of Christ and operate in love and spread the gospel. I think Christianity is the only religion where we are mandated to tell people the good news. Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the good news and make desciples." so there is an emphasis to go and tell the world because the word says God is not willing that even one should perish.

Jesus tells to be careful who we share the Gospel and our testimony with, as not all will accept it. Matthew 7:6
“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the good news and make desciples." so there is an emphasis to go and tell the world because the word says God is not willing that even one should perish.

Inthebox, i agree with you 100%, we as Christians dont always set a good example and that is why i think a lot of people may be cynical of Christianity because a lot of us dont practice what we preach. We are all called to be ambassadors of Christ and operate in love and spread the gospel. I think Christianity is the only religion where we are mandated to tell people the good news. Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the good news and make desciples." so there is an emphasis to go and tell the world because the word says God is not willing that even one should perish.



Beatle:

I know you have been hammered lately, but your heart, to me, is in the right place.



God Bless

We as Christians know why they should believe. Instead I wonder why. How could they not believe. I look at nature, the way things work and mostly at the complexity of humans. The way life is made, the process of growth of a baby in the womb and wonder how people cannot see that a being with more intelligence than we can fathom, our great and powerful God created it all. How these complexities alone could have possibly been created through happenstance. I wonder how they can be content with the ways things began without God as the creator.
But then, is it easier for us to see these things because we have God within us? Because truth is within us?
I will tell you this. I am so grateful that God put me with parents and in a family who are Christians. Can we truly blame non-believers for not wanting to associate with and be part of hypocrisy, judgementals and those who have "holier than thou" attitudes? I couldn't tell you how many times non-believers have told me that the reasons they do not believe in God is because of the ways and attitudes of His followers. That they do not want to be a part of it? Unfortunately these people stopped looking when they saw the actions and heard the words of these people, and didn't continue to speak and view those who are not that way, or they simply did not see or talk to enough of us to see truth before their mind was made up. Another unfortunate is that we are lumped together. One's actions is all of our actions. One person wrongly exemplifies God so we all do.
Think about this. If you were raised in a home with either a belief in a totally different religion or no religion at all... If you had to sift through other Gods/beliefs, science's explanation of creation, etc. would you be in the same place in your Christian life as you are now? Would you even be a Christian? Would you, like non-believers, who do not have God's truth within them, rebuke God based upon the hypocritical, judgemental and "holier than thou" Christians that you have talked to and viewed their life/actions? Would you be able to speak to and see enough other Christians to see that not all are alike, and there are some who truly represent God in their lives? Or would you have seen enough before you saw the actual truth?
It's hard to say, I know. But I do know this. I am so grateful that I didn't have to find out. I am grateful that God was around me and within my family and household since before my birth. I am grateful because I can't positively say that God would be within me had I not had Godly guidance and upbringing. I would hope so and like to think so, but can't know for sure under different circumstances. I am grateful that I didn't have to struggle to find truth because it was around me since my birth, that I didn't have to sift through other religions and beliefs to find truth, and most importantly I am grateful because God gave that to me. Because God saw fit for me to be born to His children. I know that all Christians weren't born to Christian parents, I am just saying that personally, I am grateful to God that I was. Why? Because under different circumstances I would probably be asking the same question you did inthebox, why should I believe?
But because I am blessed, I know why I believe and why everyone else should too. It's a great thing to know, eh?

Thank you! I just get frustrated sometimes when athiests steriotype christians and make it seem like our views are primitive just because we believe in a greater power i.e God

Matthew

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


The first part is what distinguishes us.

I think the secular world co-opts the second part as a variation on the "golden rule"
So they don't even have to consider God first.






Grace and peace

I believe we should all respect eachothers faith and religion. If someone chooses to follow a life of religion, that's a very courageous thing to do. If they choose not to follow a life of religion then that too, is couragous becase both people have shown the ability to be able to decide things for themselves and now be influenced by others.

I think another big reason why some people don't believe is that they don't want to. Evolution, as ridiculous as it is, is an alternitive to those who don't want to believe in a God in whom they have to be accountable to. In Our human nature we all want to run our own lives and do what ever we want without being accountable to anyone. The fear for most non believers is that they think if I believe in God then I am accountable to him, I have to give my life to him, I have to follow his comandments and turn away from sin. Most people are not ready to give up control of their lives like that so they choose to not believe in a God who is rightious and holds them accountable. So for someone who feels that way evolution is great because it eliminates a higher power, hell, judegment day etc. So they think if I don't believe, then I will not be subject to the consequeses however they fail to realise that whether you choose to believe or not the reality still remains and as Jesus said one day every knee shall bow and ever tongue shall confess that he is lord.

I think another big reason why some people dont believe is that they dont want to. Evolution, as ridiculous as it is, is an alternitive to those who dont want to believe in a God in whom they have to be accountable to. In Our human nature we all want to run our own lives and do what ever we want without being accountable to anyone. The fear for most non believers is that they think if i believe in God then i am accountable to him, i have to give my life to him, i have to follow his comandments and turn away from sin. Most people are not ready to give up control of their lives like that so they choose to not believe in a God who is rightious and holds them accountable. So for someone who feels that way evolution is great because it eliminates a higher power, hell, judegment day etc. So they think if i dont believe, then i will not be subject to the consequeses however they fail to realise that whether you choose to believe or not the reality still remains and as Jesus said one day every knee shall bow and ever tongue shall confess that he is lord.


You get a bad rap and get nailed a lot in other boards but you are spot on and I wholly support everything you are saying. Praise the Lord!

Thank you! The Truth is sometimes offensive to people and can create controversy but that should not stop us from speaking it!

I find this another interesting conversation.

I was raised in a Christian family. I turned away from Christianity because of the hypocritical nature of the vast majority of the people I knew that professed to be Christian.

I spent 3 years researching every religion I could find information on.

This is not to say that ALL Christians are bad, or are hypocritical--but how could I possibly want to associate myself with people who seemed to lie to themselves about how "good" and "moral" they were/are?

I have met, face-to-face, 10 good Christians in my life. I am not including the people on this board, because I really don't know what you do with your lives away from here--and actions speak so much more plainly than words, don't you think? Those 10 great Christians were givers to their community, held no grudges, didn't preach--they didn't have to, because they LIVED according to Christ--went to church, had good morals, but forgave those who were not so lucky to have been taught those morals--they gave of themselves, of their hearts, of their time, of their pocketbook. When they said they'd pray for someone, they didn't make it sound as if it were a favor, or as if it were condescending.

I think the biggest problem that "non-believers" have with Christians is that they are not humble, they don't admit that they are human, and make mistakes--their view on so many things is that they are superior to others, that their worldview is the only one that can POSSIBLY be a good one. Yet--what of slavery, which was justified by the Bible? What of the subjugation of women (mostly due to that jerk St. Paul, the world's biggest woman-hater)? What of the STILL enduring idea that gays and lesbians are "less", and from what I understand that whole idea is taken from ONE passage of the Bible, about Sodom and Gamorrah! Yet... that same story tells of the incest between Lot and his daughters--why is being gay bad, and being incestuous not, then? The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the witch hunts in Europe, the killing of the natives for their gold by the missionaries to the New World, the pedophilia so often in the news by the Catholic Church--and yet you wonder why people doubt the words of Christians?

I can't speak for anyone else--but I think Christianity has some GREAT ideas. But as a religion, those ideas are enforced by whoever interpets them in a particular way to get their political or selfish ideas across, and how can I possible trust a god that allows His followers to pervert His words? How could I possibly believe that no matter how many sins you commit, how much evil you do--if you ask for forgiveness on your deathbed, you will not have to pay for those sins?

I'd like to point out, with regards to accountability, that no, I don't believe I am accountable to a supreme being. I am accountable only to myself and those I care about, which means if I do something wrong, I have to answer to ME. I can't ask for forgiveness from god, I have to find it in myself. I have to seek it from others. If I wrong you, and you REFUSE to forgive me, I have to live each day knowing that because of my actions, you have a poor opinion of me. I have to find it in myself to look in the mirror each day, and find a way to carry on with my life and "right" my "wrong". If I wrong someone, I don't simply shrug it off and say, "Ah well, who cares if I upset that guy!" I have a conscience, and feel remorse. Mine, however, can only be relieved by myself and the one I did wrong.

I'd like to point out, with regards to accountability, that no, I don't believe I am accountable to a supreme being. I am accountable only to myself and those I care about, which means if I do something wrong, I have to answer to ME. I can't ask for forgiveness from god, I have to find it in myself. I have to seek it from others. If I wrong you, and you REFUSE to forgive me, I have to live each day knowing that because of my actions, you have a poor opinion of me. I have to find it in myself to look in the mirror each day, and find a way to carry on with my life and "right" my "wrong". If I wrong someone, I don't simply shrug it off and say, "Ah well, who cares if I upset that guy!" I have a conscience, and feel remorse. Mine, however, can only be relieved by myself and the one I did wrong.


I may be out of line and defensive regarding your responses but are you implying by your highlighted statement that we (Christians) don't care if we wrong someone because we have God? Help me understand.

I may be out of line and defensive regarding your responses but are you implying by your highlighted statement that we (Christians) don't care if we wrong someone because we have God? Help me understand.Actually I think it's the other way around - the part you highlighted is the way that most christians feel that atheists live their lives i.e. no accountability.

Actually I think it's the other way around - the part you highlighted is the way that most christians feel that atheists live their lives i.e. no accountability.


I wouldn't say athesist have no accountability or don't take accountability but they don't recognize accountability to their Creator.

Christian or Not, we are all Human and even the Bible points out that we are born in sin. The Bible also points out that even if we receive Christ and become children of God we are still going to sin because we are not perfect, we are still Human. So I think that expecting Christians to be perfect is an extremely unrealistic expectation. We are called to live a rightious life and do good but the bible clearly states that we are still sinners, we will still fall into temptation but because of grace through Christ we are blameless before God. So in a sense we are hypocrites because we don't always practice what we preach but we are still called to preach the gospel regardless. So for someone expect perfection from christians is very very unrealistic and one should not look to Christians but only to Christ because he is the only one who is perfect and the only one who will never disappoint you. So for people who say they don't want to be christians because Christians are not a good example, I understand where you are coming from but it is not a good excuse because the bible never said once you are a Christian you become perfect and without sin. Therefore don't let look to an imperfect human being but look to God and see that He is good.

I wouldn't say athesist have no accountability or don't take accountability but they don't recognize accountability to their Creator.I wasn't pointing you out, it's others. Anyway it's best to let jillianleab answer the question since your question was directed at her. :)

I wasn't pointing you out, it's others. Anyway it's best to let jillianleab answer the question since your question was directed at her. :)


Gotcha, Thanks :D

NK has it correct, but I can see how my statement was unclear. Sorry about that.

Let me try to make it a little clearer. If you get drunk, drive a car, hit another car, and kill the driver, you feel terrible, right? Of course you do. So you apologize to the family, and they refuse to accept your apology. You still feel terrible. As a result of this accident, you turn over a new leaf and "find" god; you repent in ways your religion sees fit, you confess your sins and express your remorse. Because of that, because you've done what you think you must do to get god to forgive you, you think you will be on your way to heaven when you die. This is not to say you still don't feel bad about what you did, but you are at least comforted because god has forgiven you. Now put me in that situation, and leave the "finding" god part out. If that family won't forgive me, how can I ever feel good about myself again? So my point is not to imply Christians don't care if they do wrong, only that by having the sense that god has forgiven you for your sins and wrongdoings you have some comfort; you will eventually be in heaven. It might help you move past the incident more that I am able to, because I would continue to feel no comfort until the family forgives me.

Frequently Christians think atheists do something wrong and since they aren't accountable to god they get over it faster. For me, personally, this isn't true. As I said, I have to answer to myself; and it's hard to forgive yourself for something you did wrong when the person you wronged will not forgive you.

I hope this made my point a little clearer, but I will certainly address and further questions.

I think you misunderstand.

I don't expect Christians to be perfect. I do, however, expect them to live by their own rules, and to be able to be a good Christian BEFORE they try to recruit others.

For example... imagine a woman who goes to church every Sunday, volunteers her time and energy at the food shelf and making quilts for the homeless. Yet, at work, she constantly puts others down, and badmouths them. She finds out little details about co-workers and spins them in the worst light possible. She is horrified by the woman pregnant out of wedlock, by the woman whose son is being sent to military school because she's not sure what else to do, since the kid's dad won't take responsibility for him, by people who go to parties on Saturday night and not to church on Sunday morning. She brags about her volunteer work, and about what a difference she makes in the lives of others, and belittles the people who are too busy with family and work to be able to volunteer more than $10 a month to charity.

Instead of rejoicing that there will be a wonderful new baby, helping the woman whose son is in trouble by giving her contact information for free counseling services, and keeping her mouth shut about bad news and spreading the good instead. Whenever someone has a problem, her ONLY advice is to turn to Christ. Her idea of loving her neighbor as herself has to do with helping those she volunteers to help, at specific times and places, rather than really helping her neighbor--buying baby clothes at garage sales for the pregnant woman, offering to babysit for the couple who are so crazy with kids that their marriage is floundering, not judging people ONLY by what she hears about them.

THAT kind of Christian is the kind I generally run into. Not exactly that, but the same idea. Smug in her religion, overly proud of her deeds, and spreading the worst of the news of others around her, instead of rejoicing with them or helping to support them. To me, being a good PERSON means helping anyone you know needs help. Is that not what the good Samitan did?

Believe me... I know that not all Christians are like that. And I know that good people are good people everywhere, and that we don't always see the good side of a person. But the people that preach Christ without actually reflecting his works are the ones I seem to hear shouting his words the loudest. Unfortunately, the ones who quietly live their lives for Christ just don't get the same fanfare and attention--but are better appreciated by those who are near them.

NK has it correct, but I can see how my statement was unclear. Sorry about that.

Let me try to make it a little clearer. If you get drunk, drive a car, hit another car, and kill the driver, you feel terrible, right? Of course you do. So you apologize to the family, and they refuse to accept your apology. You still feel terrible. As a result of this accident, you turn over a new leaf and "find" god; you repent in ways your religion sees fit, you confess your sins and express your remorse. Because of that, because you've done what you think you must do to get god to forgive you, you think you will be on your way to heaven when you die. This is not to say you still don't feel bad about what you did, but you are at least comforted because god has forgiven you. Now put me in that situation, and leave the "finding" god part out. If that family won't forgive me, how can I ever feel good about myself again? So my point is not to imply Christians don't care if they do wrong, only that by having the sense that god has forgiven you for your sins and wrongdoings you have some comfort; you will eventually be in heaven. It might help you move past the incident more that I am able to, because I would continue to feel no comfort until the family forgives me.

Frequently Christians think atheists do something wrong and since they aren't accountable to god they get over it faster. For me, personally, this isn't true. As I said, I have to answer to myself; and it's hard to forgive yourself for something you did wrong when the person you wronged will not forgive you.

I hope this made my point a little clearer, but I will certainly address and further questions.

It certainly has thanks for responding. You do make a lot of sense and those scenarios would be entirely too difficult. Don't you find it impossible to deal with worry, loss, grief, anger, etc when you have to shoulder all the burden? I would say I am blessed to be able to allow my God to shoulder some of that burden for me.

It certainly has thanks for responding. You do make a lot of sense and those scenarios would be entirely too difficult. Don't you find it impossible to deal with worry, loss, grief, anger, etc when you have to shoulder all the burden? I would say I am blessed to be able to allow my God to shoulder some of that burden for me.

I think you just "got it"! It's very hard to deal with the burden of my wrongdoings - that's what keeps me on the straight and narrow, so to speak. Since I know I have to shoulder ALL the burden, I try to make decisions that won't result in carrying burden. I think it makes me a better person, because I consider the effects my actions will have on me and my future. Going to my previous example of drunk driving - a few years ago I drove home drunk; REALLY drunk. So drunk, I threw up in the car all over myself. I was in no shape to drive, but I did it anyway. I was lucky and didn't hit anyone or anything (notice I didn't say I was lucky and didn't get caught), but the next morning when I woke up and realized how incredibly STUPID and IRRESPONSIBLE I was, and the damage I COULD have done - I broke down and sobbed. I couldn't stop. I have not driven a car after drinking since that say, and I never will. I've made the decision that I will NOT have to shoulder the burden of injuring someone or myself as a result of stupidity, because it would be too much to bear.

I find this another interesting conversation.

I was raised in a Christian family. I turned away from Christianity because of the hypocritical nature of the vast majority of the people I knew that professed to be Christian.

I spent 3 years researching every religion I could find information on.

This is not to say that ALL Christians are bad, or are hypocritical--but how could I possibly want to associate myself with people who seemed to lie to themselves about how "good" and "moral" they were/are?

I have met, face-to-face, 10 good Christians in my life. I am not including the people on this board, because I really don't know what you do with your lives away from here--and actions speak so much more plainly than words, don't you think? Those 10 great Christians were givers to their community, held no grudges, didn't preach--they didn't have to, because they LIVED according to Christ--went to church, had good morals, but forgave those who were not so lucky to have been taught those morals--they gave of themselves, of their hearts, of their time, of their pocketbook. When they said they'd pray for someone, they didn't make it sound as if it were a favor, or as if it were condescending.

I think the biggest problem that "non-believers" have with Christians is that they are not humble, they don't admit that they are human, and make mistakes--their view on so many things is that they are superior to others, that their worldview is the only one that can POSSIBLY be a good one. Yet--what of slavery, which was justified by the Bible? What of the subjugation of women (mostly due to that jerk St. Paul, the world's biggest woman-hater)? What of the STILL enduring idea that gays and lesbians are "less", and from what I understand that whole idea is taken from ONE passage of the Bible, about Sodom and Gamorrah! Yet...that same story tells of the incest between Lot and his daughters--why is being gay bad, and being incestuous not, then? The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the witch hunts in Europe, the killing of the natives for their gold by the missionaries to the New World, the pedophilia so often in the news by the Catholic Church--and yet you wonder why people doubt the words of Christians?

I can't speak for anyone else--but I think Christianity has some GREAT ideas. But as a religion, those ideas are enforced by whoever interpets them in a particular way to get their political or selfish ideas across, and how can I possible trust a god that allows His followers to pervert His words? How could I possibly believe that no matter how many sins you commit, how much evil you do--if you ask for forgiveness on your deathbed, you will not have to pay for those sins?

I agree we are hypocrites and sinners. We need to be more humble as a whole and be servants like Jesus instructed us to be. It is not our place to judge.

My response to some of your other questions; God will deal with the individuals that pervert the word and take advantage of people that look up to them. We may be forgiven of our sins because of Jesus' death but we will answer to God in heaven about our sins and who is to say how He will deal with those sins in the end. If you seek forgiveness from God on your deathbed I believe you will escape eternal death but you will still be accountable for your sins.

Everyone has a view of how a Christian should act. Even Christians. We cannot live up to the expectations because we are human. This is where the Grace of Jesus steps in, to make up the difference in all that we lack. Unfortunately, too many of us fail to rely on the Grace and try to do this in our own strength. This is where we fail the LORD.
2 Timothy 3:5
They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!
Christian or Not, we are all Human and even the Bible points out that we are born in sin. The Bible also points out that even if we recieve Christ and become children of God we are still going to sin because we are not perfect, we are still Human. So i think that expecting Christians to be perfect is an extremely unrealistic expectation. We are called to live a rightious life and do good but the bible clearly states that we are still sinners, we will still fall into temptation but because of grace through Christ we are blameless before God. So in a sense we are hypocrites because we dont always practice what we preach but we are still called to preach the gospel regardless. So for someone expect perfection from christians is very very unrealistic and one should not look to Christians but only to Christ because he is the only one who is perfect and the only one who will never disappoint you. So for people who say they dont want to be christians because Christians are not a good example, i understand where you are coming from but it is not a good excuse because the bible never said once you are a Christian you become perfect and without sin. therefore dont let look to an imperfect human being but look to God and see that He is good.

I aappreciate the input from those who are not stated Christians.

Honestly, I would never have been able to see thing from your point of view. This helps me understand.

There is the parable of the man who's million or so dollar debt is forgiven by Jesus, this same man goes to another man who owes him a much smaller amount and demands repayment. Jesus points this out as wrong.

Because, we believers believe God loves us and forgives us, we are expected to act in a likewise manner to all others. Of course no human is perfect.

But people are right to call out believer's not acting like Christ. But it does not change who God is and what he has done for us.





Grace and Peace

I think you misunderstand.

I don't expect Christians to be perfect. I do, however, expect them to live by their own rules, and to be able to be a good Christian BEFORE they try to recruit others.

For example...imagine a woman who goes to church every Sunday, volunteers her time and energy at the food shelf and making quilts for the homeless. Yet, at work, she constantly puts others down, and badmouths them. She finds out little details about co-workers and spins them in the worst light possible. She is horrified by the woman pregnant out of wedlock, by the woman whose son is being sent to military school because she's not sure what else to do, since the kid's dad won't take responsibility for him, by people who go to parties on Saturday night and not to church on Sunday morning. She brags about her volunteer work, and about what a difference she makes in the lives of others, and belittles the people who are too busy with family and work to be able to volunteer more than $10 a month to charity.

Instead of rejoicing that there will be a wonderful new baby, helping the woman whose son is in trouble by giving her contact information for free counseling services, and keeping her mouth shut about bad news and spreading the good instead. Whenever someone has a problem, her ONLY advice is to turn to Christ. Her idea of loving her neighbor as herself has to do with helping those she volunteers to help, at specific times and places, rather than really helping her neighbor--buying baby clothes at garage sales for the pregnant woman, offering to babysit for the couple who are so crazy with kids that their marriage is floundering, not judging people ONLY by what she hears about them.

THAT kind of Christian is the kind I generally run into. Not exactly that, but the same idea. Smug in her religion, overly proud of her deeds, and spreading the worst of the news of others around her, instead of rejoicing with them or helping to support them. To me, being a good PERSON means helping anyone you know needs help. Is that not what the good Samitan did?

Believe me...I know that not all Christians are like that. And I know that good people are good people everywhere, and that we don't always see the good side of a person. But the people that preach Christ without actually reflecting his works are the ones I seem to hear shouting his words the loudest. Unfortunately, the ones who quietly live their lives for Christ just don't get the same fanfare and attention--but are better appreciated by those who are near them.

I am sorry that those are the kind of Christians you have encountered. The Bible does not indorse in anyway people who behave self rightiously and are judjemental. Those type of people remind me of the pharosies who were very religious, self rightious and overly proud. Jesus actually made it clear that he did like their actions. After all Jesus dined with tax collecters, walked with former prostututes, healed the sick on the holy sabath, all these things that pharocies rebuked Jesus for because it against the "religious" practices. What Jesus was trying to show is that it is not about religious works but it is about grace. Jesus never judged even prostitutes, when they were about to stone her Jesus said let he has no sin cast the first stone. Then he turned to the woman and said your sins have been forgiven, now go and sin no more. So the message of the bible is about forgiveness, you come as you are to the throne of Grace and He is mercyful. At our church we have x convicts, ex drug adicts ex muderes you name it. We do not act like we are all perfect people with perfect back grounds. We have single mothers who have never been married and they are not made feel any different than anyone else and no one is made to feel condemned. That does not mean we think sin I is right but Jesus said come as you are.

However there are other burdens that may not be self inficted and are beyond your control.

Beatle, excellent response. I come from the same kind of church you do and welcome everyone. Synnen, I am too sorry you have had bad interactions with self-righteous Christians, it makes me ashamed to be included in that type of model so to speak. God bless

Although the establishment has closed the other thread,Of which I think was out of line, but that's bureaucracy at its best.

Why is the idea of another belief so alien for one religion to another, or for the Non-believer?Again I ask,Who has the right to say, unequivocally,they are right?

Yes mountain_man,I will continue to answer a question with other questions, The real idea is to open up communication between people,If that isn't right for you,sorry 'bout your bad luck,Please don't judge me for my views, your just solidifying my UN-belief and disdain for a religion and its followers!

As to the "scientific evidence", what can we prove about god?

I have been a person questioning this since Sunday school, some 35 years ago.

Please, enlighten me as to the FACTS,that there is a god, Not a feeling, or a sense of security, not a written word,or some other human interpretation of a concept.

I am NOT going to play 'Spear the Atheist' with those of you that want to get belligerent because I don't share your views,I want to have discussion,Adult,siren,mature,and hopefully enlightening for all of us.

Thank you,

Ken

I hear non believers say those things all the time just the way you posted it.
I think it is basically a defense mechanism to justify where they are at.
Like if they say well Christians are hypocrites it justifies their decision to not want God.
Saying that a preacher/Christian committed adultery is pointing the finger to comfort them in their own wrongs because they can say you guys are no better so why should I?
Then they say 'jamming it down their throats' when you simply say have you ever considered
God? Another defense mechanism to say they don't want to hear it. Separation of Church and state, perverted sexual art and pro abortion stuff seems to me more like having it jammed down your throats than a simple statement about Christianity but that is acceptable.

As to the "scientific evidence", what can we prove about god?

I have been a person questioning this since Sunday school, some 35 years ago.

Please, enlighten me as to the FACTS,that there is a god, Not a feeling, or a sense of security, not a written word,or some other human interpretation of a concept.


Thank you,

Ken

There is no undeniable evidence/proof that God exists. At least not the kind that can not be refuted, the kind that will prove to all, without doubt, of His existence. What do I mean by that? Well I know without doubt and undeniably that God does exist, but I can't undeniably prove it to you or anyone else. Because I believe in God, I believe that all will see the truth with either your death, or the second coming. Until then there will never be any undeniable evidence to God's existence. The reason being is because God gives us free will to believe. He wants us to choose Him. If He is undeniably real to everyone then that choice is gone. We are instead in a sense, as mountainman put it, robots.

::Edit:: Not changing, but adding to my post.

When Christians say the evidence is in how and what they feel, their sense of security, the written Word, and other human interpretation, it is not undeniable proof, but it is our undeniable evidence. We know this may not be good enough for you, but we say it because we know that everyone can have it, everyone can know without a doubt and undeniably if only they would allow it.

Matthew 11:27
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Psalm 19:1
[ For the choir director: A psalm of David. ] The heavens proclaim the glory of God.The skies display his craftsmanship.

Matthew 11:25
[ Jesus’ Prayer of Thanksgiving ] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.


God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.
Although the establishment has closed the other thread,Of which I think was out of line, but thats bureaucracy at its best.

Why is the idea of another belief so alien for one religion to another, or for the Non-believer?Again I ask,Who has the right to say, unequivocally,they are right?

Yes mountain_man,I will continue to answer a question with other questions, The real idea is to open up communication between people,If that isn't right for you,sorry 'bout your bad luck,Please don't judge me for my views, your just solidifying my UN-belief and disdain for a religion and its followers!

As to the "scientific evidence", what can we prove about god?

I have been a person questioning this since Sunday school, some 35 years ago.

Please, enlighten me as to the FACTS,that there is a god, Not a feeling, or a sense of security, not a written word,or some other human interpretation of a concept.

I am NOT going to play 'Spear the Atheist' with those of you that want to get belligerent because I don't share your views,I want to have discussion,Adult,siren,mature,and hopefully enlightening for all of us.

Thank you,

Ken

God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

Exactly. Not the exact words, I would have to look it up, but the Bible states that if we seek Him with all of our heart we will find Him. This is the only way because there is no undeniable evidence that everyone can know without a doubt. But for those of us who did/do seek Him with all of our heart have undeniably found Him.

God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

I am not seeking to 'Prove anyone wrong',I am seeking enlightenment as to why. How can this be looked at from my perspective?

How can we 'Prove him right'?

Obviously it isn't an option.

Religions of all the ages are based on what?Mans basic need for answers to the unknown and a need to feel that there is something more than man to explain the 'larger picture'

How long ago did man question the actions of the burning sun,claim it to be an act of a loving god which gave us life,now we KNOW for a fact, the reasons behind the sun's chemical and nuclear reactions.

Or the volcano worshipers who believed Krakatoa was an angry god,and the earthquakes rumblings which were interpreted as a demon chained to the underworld,rattling his chains.

What will man figure out in the future about who and what we are,something which religion won't see for the simple idea that it doesn't want to see, because it might cast a shadow of doubt on its validity?



Matthew 11:25
[ Jesus' Prayer of Thanksgiving ] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.

Hiding what?and how does the non believer find it if they can't see it?

Matthew 11:27
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

In My ideology, this is convenient at best,when a divine being chooses to reveal himself to anyone it is an act of this higher beings will,this is some of the very preachings that make it unbelievable.(to me)

Here is why.

It casts the higher being in an indisputable light,which has no answer,if this being is almighty,why does it need to hide itself behind a veil of mystery,why not expose itself? To say it is not seeking glory? Or acknowledgment?

To what end?If it created this universe,gave us free will, brains to question and understand ,where are the answers to come from? A disputable book,or teachings passed down from generation to generation?Isn't this the same concept that the Ancient Egyptians stated about their gods? Or the Norse? How does Christianity differ from their beliefs?Because it is more modern?Worldwide?

Science has proven,without doubt, that it can reproduce the amino acids necessary for the start of life,and with little interpretation,it can be argued in both lights,creationism and evolutionism.

Did god make it possible to change the acids and join them to proteins,which were foreign to ancient earth,or did another outside influence make it possible, like a meteor bringing a new chemical into the mixture,or another advanced being capable of doing this and leaving this planet to evolve on its own?This is the area questioned and theorized by scientific minds,and dismissed by divine thinkers as creation. Who is right?

I hope for all our sakes this can be a calm discussion,

Ken

KBC, it is very clever of you not to directly answer questions but regarding the RED you gave me... where was I being hypocritical and judging? Please point this out to me.

KBC, it is very clever of you not to directly answer questions but regarding the RED you gave me...where was I being hypocritical and judging? Please point this out to me.
Clever? I am who I am. Are you judging again?

As to the red, I was just doing what a good Christian does,right? An eye for an eye, a red for a red?;)

Edit:You by your own admission stated that your all hypocrites,I was just agreeing and returning the only real red I have ever received (except for the first,which by the way, was from a self proclaimed 'Crishtian' who chose to judge my response smiler to you)HMMMMM

Clever? I am who I am. are you judging again?

As to the red, I was just doing what a good Christian does,right? an eye for an eye, a red for a red?;)

edit:You by your own admission stated that your all hypocrites,I was just agreeing and returning the only real red I have ever received (except for the first,which by the way, was from a self proclaimed 'Crishtian' who chose to judge my response smiler to you)HMMMMM


I didn't judge your response; it was fact you answered a question with a question and it wasn't helpful.

So you just got back at me for giving you a RED! I didn't know that it meant so much to you.

I didn't judge your response; it was fact you answered a question with a question and it wasn't helpful.

So you just got back at me for giving you a RED! I didn't know that it meant so much to you.
You were the only one who felt it wasn't helpful,did you read it and answer my question, or judge it not helpful?:eek:

you were the only one who felt it wasn't helpful,did you read it and answer my question, or judge it not helpful?:eek:

Sorry I am not going to get into this with you.

God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

I am not seeking to 'Prove anyone wrong',I am seeking enlightenment as to why. How can this be looked at from my perspective?

How can we 'Prove him right'?

Obviously it isn't an option.

Religions of all the ages are based on what?Mans basic need for answers to the unknown and a need to feel that there is something more than man to explain the 'larger picture'

How long ago did man question the actions of the burning sun,claim it to be an act of a loving god which gave us life,now we KNOW for a fact, the reasons behind the sun's chemical and nuclear reactions.

Or the volcano worshipers who believed Krakatoa was an angry god,and the earthquakes rumblings which were interpreted as a demon chained to the underworld,rattling his chains.

What will man figure out in the future about who and what we are,something which religion won't see for the simple idea that it doesn't want to see, because it might cast a shadow of doubt on its validity?



Matthew 11:25
[ Jesus’ Prayer of Thanksgiving ] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.

Hiding what?and how does the non believer find it if they can't see it?

Matthew 11:27
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

In My ideology, this is convenient at best,when a divine being chooses to reveal himself to anyone it is an act of this higher beings will,this is some of the very preachings that make it unbelievable.(to me)

Here is why.

It casts the higher being in an indisputable light,which has no answer,if this being is almighty,why does it need to hide itself behind a veil of mystery,why not expose itself? To say it is not seeking glory? Or acknowledgment?

To what end?If it created this universe,gave us free will, brains to question and understand ,where are the answers to come from? A disputable book,or teachings passed down from generation to generation?Isn't this the same concept that the Ancient Egyptians stated about their gods?,Or the Norse? How does Christianity differ from their beliefs?Because it is more modern?Worldwide?

Science has proven,without doubt, that it can reproduce the amino acids necessary for the start of life,and with little interpretation,it can be argued in both lights,creationism and evolutionism.

Did god make it possible to change the acids and join them to proteins,which were foreign to ancient earth,or did another outside influence make it possible, like a meteor bringing a new chemical into the mixture,or another advanced being capable of doing this and leaving this planet to evolve on its own?This is the area questioned and theorized by scientific minds,and dismissed by divine thinkers as creation. Who is right??

I hope for all our sakes this can be a calm discussion,

Ken

God is spiritual, therefore we must seek Him spiritually in order to find Him, in order for Him to reveal Himself to us.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Deuteronomy 4:29 "But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Amos 5:4 "For thus saith the Lord unto the house of Isreal, seek ye me, and ye shall live."

Yes, Jesus said that He will reaveal to whomever He chooses, but with the above verses He tells us who He will choose to reveal Himself to. Those who seek Him with all their heart and soul.
This is not Biblical, it is simply my thoughts. Why should God reveal His glory, greatness and goodness to those who care nothing for it? To those who do not want it? Or to those who want revealation only for proof. When we seek God it is not to prove anything. We seek because we want to know Him, be a part of Him, live for eternity with Him.

Why are some things withheld?

John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."
He will reveal anything you are capable of understanding. Knowing everything about an infinite God is not possible with a finite mind.
He gives us what we need to know. How to live for eternity with Him (receive salvation). How we should live our lives and what we should be doing with our lives.

Here is just another additional verse on John's thoughts.

John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, that which if they should be written everyone, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."

Thank you all for your responses,

I am done explaining my points and feel better for it.

May you all be as content as I am in my spirituality!

Ken

We have much evidence as to the Presence of God.

Psalm 40
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1 I waited patiently for the LORD;
And He inclined to me,
And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit,
Out of the miry clay,
And set my feet upon a rock,
And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth—
Praise to our God;
Many will see it and fear,
And will trust in the LORD.

4 Blessed is that man who makes the LORD his trust,
And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
5 Many, O LORD my God, are Your wonderful works
Which You have done;
And Your thoughts toward us
Cannot be recounted to You in order;
If I would declare and speak of them,
They are more than can be numbered.

6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

9 I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness
In the great assembly;
Indeed, I do not restrain my lips,
O LORD, You Yourself know.
10 I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart;
I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation;
I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth
From the great assembly.

11 Do not withhold Your tender mercies from me, O LORD;
Let Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually preserve me.
12 For innumerable evils have surrounded me;
My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up;
They are more than the hairs of my head;
Therefore my heart fails me.

13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me;
O LORD, make haste to help me!
14 Let them be ashamed and brought to mutual confusion
Who seek to destroy my life;
Let them be driven backward and brought to dishonor
Who wish me evil.
15 Let them be confounded because of their shame,
Who say to me, “Aha, aha!”

16 Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
Let such as love Your salvation say continually,
“The LORD be magnified!”
17 But I am poor and needy;
Yet the LORD thinks upon me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
Do not delay, O my God.
How can we 'Prove him right'? Ken

;)
God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

I am not seeking to 'Prove anyone wrong',I am seeking enlightenment as to why. How can this be looked at from my perspective?

How can we 'Prove him right'?

Obviously it isn't an option.

Religions of all the ages are based on what?Mans basic need for answers to the unknown and a need to feel that there is something more than man to explain the 'larger picture'

How long ago did man question the actions of the burning sun,claim it to be an act of a loving god which gave us life,now we KNOW for a fact, the reasons behind the sun's chemical and nuclear reactions.

Or the volcano worshipers who believed Krakatoa was an angry god,and the earthquakes rumblings which were interpreted as a demon chained to the underworld,rattling his chains.

What will man figure out in the future about who and what we are,something which religion won't see for the simple idea that it doesn't want to see, because it might cast a shadow of doubt on its validity?



Matthew 11:25
[ Jesus’ Prayer of Thanksgiving ] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.

Hiding what?and how does the non believer find it if they can't see it?

Matthew 11:27
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

In My ideology, this is convenient at best,when a divine being chooses to reveal himself to anyone it is an act of this higher beings will,this is some of the very preachings that make it unbelievable.(to me)

Here is why.

It casts the higher being in an indisputable light,which has no answer,if this being is almighty,why does it need to hide itself behind a veil of mystery,why not expose itself? To say it is not seeking glory? Or acknowledgment?

To what end?If it created this universe,gave us free will, brains to question and understand ,where are the answers to come from? A disputable book,or teachings passed down from generation to generation?Isn't this the same concept that the Ancient Egyptians stated about their gods?,Or the Norse? How does Christianity differ from their beliefs?Because it is more modern?Worldwide?

Science has proven,without doubt, that it can reproduce the amino acids necessary for the start of life,and with little interpretation,it can be argued in both lights,creationism and evolutionism.

Did god make it possible to change the acids and join them to proteins,which were foreign to ancient earth,or did another outside influence make it possible, like a meteor bringing a new chemical into the mixture,or another advanced being capable of doing this and leaving this planet to evolve on its own?This is the area questioned and theorized by scientific minds,and dismissed by divine thinkers as creation. Who is right??

I hope for all our sakes this can be a calm discussion,

Ken

Hebrews 11:
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.


In regard to reproducing amino acids, besides a link, some questions.

1] you are saying that scientists are doing this. These scientists are using their intelligence to do this. Amino acids did not randomly appera on a bench by pure chance. Did it?

2] These scientists have to set the environment to make the reproduction of amino acids possible. A willful act, no pure chance?

3] Amino acids, as far as I know, do not self reproduce. Dna is the basis of directing the cell and involved in transmission to succeeding generations. That being the case, reproducing aminoacids by intelligent scientists willfully setting the right preconditions to make this possible does not prove anything about the origin of life.

Biology is my background. I acknowledge mankinds achievements, but I still cannot 'scientifically' prove how it all began. I choose to believe in God the creator.
And, I think that is more logical then believing in pure random chance. I think panspermia as a theory is even less 'provable' than evolution or God.

I think it is also a legitimate choice for others to wait until science advances to shed more information on this question.


KBC:


But Jesus did not come for scientists ;) He came for sinners. To let them know that there is forgiveness, redemption, salvation, and love. It is in the Bible. I am one of those sinners.


I think a 'child' [ dependent by definition ] can grasp this more than the learned and educated, because the latter is, perhaps, too self confident that they will eventually find out the facts and answers on their own.





Grace and Peace