OK, one of my major battles is finding time, place and way for prayer. I have tried early morning (always hit snooze); evening (distracted by whatever); and in the car (thoughts wander off to distant places). Here's the Q. How do you incorporate daily prayer and devotion into your life? How do you overcome the battle against the gift we have been given to be in the Presence of the LORD? How do you shut out the world and make this a priority in your life? I really would like to know how others are fighting this battle. Kel:)

You make the time, you don't hit a snooze, you turn off the TV and shut yourself in a room. You go to the park alone and so on.

Meh. I don't. >_< Im like you.

Yes, I was going to say that I try to worship with the songs on my iPod. But I don't think that counts <_<

Worship is awesome. But, Satan works so hard to keep us from praying. God says He hears our prayers:Psalm 66:19
But certainly God has heard me;He has attended to the voice of my prayer.
The Bible says:
James 5:16
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

There are many more references to prayer, but even if all we have is these two promises, we can be sure that God hears, and Satan doesn't want that. We need to stand up and fight the battle in prayer for our nation, for those who are lost and need Jesus. Prayer is our way of reaching the heart of the LORD.

Yes, I was going to say that I try to worship with the songs on my iPod. But i dont think that counts <_<

You have to make the time. Don't say you're going to pray when you know there will be distracting things around.
I do it in the morning. I get up, don't turn on the TV or anything. I also pray in the shower. I walk every day and I pray while I walk.
I do my bible reading in the evening, no TV no phone, no distractions.
After a while it becomes habit and you just do it and then you find yourself praying all of the time.

Fr Chuck and Homegirl both have a good lock on it.

I set my alarm an hour early and spent time in prayer and then the rest of the hour reading the Word. As I practiced my prayer time and learned more from the Word the prayer time just naturally lengthened out until I had to set a second alarm to make sure I was on time for work (something I no longer have to worry much about).

My reading time had to be moved to the evening.

These days I find myself praying throughout the day thanking God for the many blessings he bestows.

Remember that prayer is not a position but an attitude.

I pray throughout my day, in the car, around the house, etc. What I'm sensing from the LORD is a call to more. Deeper, undistracted prayer.

To my beliefs, if something is important to you, you won't try to make time for it, you simply make time for it.

G'Day : Because you are in Jesus Christ, you already are in the presence of the Lord Most High, so don't think you have to do anything to get to where you already are just talk to Him, as you go about you daily life He is with you in all things so just talk to Him, with in or verbally, and don't forget to listen for the answer, as a father of the flesh would love to share every moment of his child's life so our Heavenly Father LOVES the share every moment with His children, in the peson of the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, all who are one.
Blessings in Jesus <M>

I will tell you something else that I have a problem with as well when it comes to praying. My mind will wander. Say for example I am praying for someone for whatever the reason may be. Sometimes I will proceed to think about the situation. Or say I am asking for forgiveness. Sometimes I will proceed to think about what I have done. Meaning my prayer stops because in my mind I am thinking. Don't get me wrong it's not that I am not into the prayer, or that I think about off the wall things. When my mind does wander it is usually about what I am praying about. Sometimes that thought might lead to another, but my point is that it's not like I'm praying then my mind goes to something off the wall or anything like that. I will eventually realize what I have done and go back to praying. I wonder sometimes if God understands this, or if it dispeases Him. Does He even hear the prayer? Because my mind wanders sometimes does not mean my prayer is any less sincere. Since God knows what's in our hearts surly He knows when we are sincere.
Does anyone else do this? How do you think God would view this? Feel about it?

Does He even hear the prayer? Because my mind wanders sometimes does not mean my prayer is any less sincere. Since God knows what's in our hearts surly He knows when we are sincere.
Does anyone else do this? How do you think God would view this? Feel about it?
Psalm 17:1
[ A Prayer of David. ] Hear a just cause, O LORD,Attend to my cry; Give ear to my prayer which is not from deceitful lips.
Psalm 17:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 17 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 17:6
I have called upon You, for You will hear me, O God;Incline Your ear to me, and hear my speech.
Psalm 17:5-7 (in Context) Psalm 17 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 54:2
Hear my prayer, O God;Give ear to the words of my mouth.
Psalm 54:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 54 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 84:8
O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer;Give ear, O God of Jacob! Selah
Psalm 84:7-9 (in Context) Psalm 84 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 86:1
[ A Prayer of David. ] Bow down Your ear, O LORD, hear me;For I am poor and needy.
Psalm 86:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 86 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 143:1
[ A Psalm of David. ] Hear my prayer, O LORD,Give ear to my supplications! In Your faithfulness answer me, And in Your righteousness.
Psalm 143:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 143 (Whole Chapter)


2 Chronicles 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:13-15 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 7 (Whole Chapter)

1 Chronicles 28:9
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.
1 Chronicles 28:8-10 (in Context) 1 Chronicles 28 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 66:18
“For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.
Isaiah 66:17-19 (in Context) Isaiah 66 (Whole Chapter)


He hears us. He knows us, more than we know ourselves. He knows every part of the seen and unseen.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:11-13 (in Context) Hebrews 4 (Whole Chapter)

There is nothing God does not know.

OK, one of my major battles is finding time, place and way for prayer. I have tried early morning (always hit snooze); evening (distracted by whatever); and in the car (thoughts wander off to distant places). Here's the Q. How do you incorporate daily prayer and devotion into your life? How do you overcome the battle against the gift we have been given to be in the Presence of the LORD? How do you shut out the world and make this a priority in your life? I really would like to know how others are fighting this battle. Kel:)

I'm Catholic. So my response may not be of use to you.

As a Catholic, we don't have anything against repetitive prayer. Hence the Rosary.

Just a bit of explanation of the Catholic perspective on the matter.. Where the Bible says:

King James Bible

Matt 6:7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:

The key word for us is "vain". Since Jesus also repeated His prayers, we assume He had nothing against repetition which isn't vain.

Anyway, since I can repeat my prayers, I use that to my advantage. I practice the Catholic devotion known as the "Presence of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12396a.htm )". And throughout the day, I repeat little prayers such as "Jesus I love you." "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" or " Mother Mary pray for me"

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria (http://mdechristi.googlepages.com/mypages)

Psalm 17:1
[ A Prayer of David. ] Hear a just cause, O LORD,Attend to my cry; Give ear to my prayer which is not from deceitful lips.
Psalm 17:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 17 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 17:6
I have called upon You, for You will hear me, O God;Incline Your ear to me, and hear my speech.
Psalm 17:5-7 (in Context) Psalm 17 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 54:2
Hear my prayer, O God;Give ear to the words of my mouth.
Psalm 54:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 54 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 84:8
O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer;Give ear, O God of Jacob! Selah
Psalm 84:7-9 (in Context) Psalm 84 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 86:1
[ A Prayer of David. ] Bow down Your ear, O LORD, hear me;For I am poor and needy.
Psalm 86:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 86 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 143:1
[ A Psalm of David. ] Hear my prayer, O LORD,Give ear to my supplications! In Your faithfulness answer me, And in Your righteousness.
Psalm 143:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 143 (Whole Chapter)


2 Chronicles 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:13-15 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 7 (Whole Chapter)

1 Chronicles 28:9
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.
1 Chronicles 28:8-10 (in Context) 1 Chronicles 28 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 66:18
“For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.
Isaiah 66:17-19 (in Context) Isaiah 66 (Whole Chapter)


He hears us. He knows us, more than we know ourselves. He knows every part of the seen and unseen.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:11-13 (in Context) Hebrews 4 (Whole Chapter)

There is nothing God does not know.

Yes I agree, but I wonder if it is disrespectful. Does he understand, or do you think it displeases Him that we sometimes trail off in thought? That it is not constant?

God understands your prayers even if they get jumbled. Sometimes we can be so burdened with something we don't even know how to pray, I believe He understands that feeling. He understands our intent for prayer even if we don't get the words right. This is way our actions don't mean squat, the pharisees had all the right actions. It's the heart attitude of the believer. A pure and thankful heart prompts us to do the right things.
I know what you mean about losing track of your prayer sometimes. I find that when I pray out loud like I'm having a conversation with Him, it helps.

Yes I agree, but I wonder if it is disrespectful. Does he understand, or do you think it displeases Him that we sometimes trail off in thought? That it is not constant?
I believe that as long as you are trying, turning from the flesh, repentant of sins and walking in His grace, He will forgive.

I pray throughout my day, in the car, around the house, etc. What I'm sensing from the LORD is a call to more. Deeper, undistracted prayer.

I'll be up front and admit I'm an atheist. But I'm genuinely curious... What's a typical prayer session like for you? What do you pray for? What do you say to God? Has God ever said anything to you (not being sarcastic, just an honest question)? Have any of your prayers been answered? And if so, what makes you think it was God that answered and not some random chance event?

Again, I'm curious what it's like for people who actually believe they are talking to an invisible god. With all sincerity, I imagine it can be very theraputic. I meditate and wonder if prayer is anything like that?

One day during a period of Consecration last January, I was worshipping. I heard the Voice of the LORD fill me and surround me. He spoke to me and said "Turn your eyes from the worthless things of this world. My Grace is Sufficient for you. My Word is all you need. Turn your eyes toward Me and I will be your God."

Other times when I pray it's like a really quiet voice directing me, telling me what to do, opening my eyes to see a specific scripture.

I pray to God like I'm talking to my Father, or a really Good Friend. Jesus is more than my Savior, He is my Life. Without Him I am nothing. I talk to Him like any other person I love, I just share more of me with Him than I would with others.

There are times when I just talk to God like I'm talking to someone I look up to. I just have random conversations, while I'm driving or when I wake up I always say "Good morning GOD, thanks for waking me up" Sometimes I read about someone and I'll pray and ask God to touch that person in a special way.
There are also times when I go before the Lord on my knees in fervant prayer.
I have had 3 miscarriages, I had my daughter after the second one. I was so paranoid when I was carrying her I was going to the doctor every week for check ups. On night, I think I was in my 6th month I had a dream I was delivering a bay girl. I saw her come out, I looked down at her face, I heard a voice that said "this is your child" I started my regular once a month visits after that. I had such a peace, no more fear. When she was born, it was just like in the dream, she looked axactly like the baby in the dream. I looked down at her while she was coming out and that same voice said "this is your child"
I lost another bay after her. I had just come back from a prenatal visit, and things were fine. I was sitting on my bed and I heard a voice, or impression. It said "The baby is dead, but you will be fine" I called my doctor asked if I could come back in, she told me to meet her at the hospital. She did an ultrasound and the baby was dead.
I have also had many answers to prayer. I know it had to have been God.

Once my daughter was very ill. She was running a fever, incoherent, the doctor did not know what was wrong with her, they put her in the Isolation ward at the hospital. I called my mother, my pastor and others I knew who believed in prayer. I prayed until I'd fall asleep and I'd wake up and start praying again. I went to sleep in the chair by her bed, when I woke up, she was awake, fever was gone, she said she was hungry. The doctor came in and could not believe it. I took her home from the hospital that day. That was nothing but God Almighty, the mighty healer

Homegirl, being a father myself I'm very happy for you, your daughter. And your family! It's wonderful that you were able to deliver a healthy baby. There's nothing like a child in your life. I apologize in advance if this question seems too personal or tough. I realize it's not pleasant, but..

I can't help wondering why you choose to thank god for your one beautiful healthy daughter, while not blaming him for your multiple miscarriages. Wouldn't your other children have been just as beautiful? Why did "God" not give them the gift of life?

Like I said, it's a tough question and I hope I don't seem rude. I just don't understand why people praise god when something goes well, yet hold him blamess for their sufferings. Isn't it infinitely more likely that god had nothing to do with either event?

Also, what do you make of 7 month old babies who die from SIDS? What does god have against these innocent bundles of joy?

Other times when I pray it's like a really quiet voice directing me, telling me what to do,

So if god tells someone to fly a plane into a skyscraper, do you think they should do it? What if god told YOU to do that! Would you?

I understand these sound like sarcastic questions, but I really don't mean them to be. Once you realize that there really are people in this world who think god talks to them and tells them to do such vile acts, it's well... Sobering to say the least.

So is it safe to say (in your case), that you would obey god if he directed you in a peaceful way, but would reject him if he were to direct you to commit an act of violence?

That was nothing but God Almighty, the mighty healer

I am truly glad that your daughter is OK. But what about all the other parents who lost their child that same night and prayed just as fervently for their child as you did for yours? Would you have us believe that god loves your family more than their's? What about the kid who was choking on a magnet around the same time your daughter was ill? God just didn't like that kid?

I am truly glad that your daughter is ok. But what about all the other parents who lost their child that same night and prayed just as fervently for their child as you did for yours? Would you have us believe that god loves your family more than their's? What about the kid who was choking on a magnet around the same time your daughter was ill? God just didn't like that kid?
No, God loves every child. He loves those babies I lost. When I lost my babies I'm sure there were other expectant moms praying that her child would be delivered and they were.
I don't understand why some prayers are answered and some are seemingly not, I do know that when we pray "They will be done" we are also saying, that "if you don't answer my prayer according to what I want, give me grace and mercy"

Homegirl, being a father myself I'm very happy for you, your daughter. and your family! It's wonderful that you were able to deliver a healthy baby. There's nothing like a child in your life. I apologize in advance if this question seems too personal or tough. I realize it's not pleasant, but..

I can't help wondering why you choose to thank god for your one beautiful healthy daughter, while not blaming him for your multiple miscarriages. Wouldn't your other children have been just as beautiful? Why did "God" not give them the gift of life?

Like I said, it's a tough question and I hope I don't seem rude. I just don't understand why people praise god when something goes well, yet hold him blamess for their sufferings. Isn't it infinitely more likely that god had nothing to do with either event?

Also, what do you make of 7 month old babies who die from SIDS? What does god have against these innocent bundles of joy?
I don't know why I lost my other babies, but I am thankful that I have a child. I don't know why babies die. I think there are some things that happen because of choices society as a whole makes that effect us all. We choose to build and drive and because of that we have pollution, and because of that people have allergies. We have knowledge to do many things and often those things cause illness and suffereing. God is not doing it. He gives us a brain and free will and He allows us to live as we choose. And because of choices we make, there is evil and pain and illness.
But when we choose to follow Him, even in the midst of all the chaos we don't understand, in the midst of grief, He gives us peace and hope and joy.

No, God loves every child. He loves those babies I lost. When I lost my babies I'm sure there were other expectant moms praying that her child would be delivered and they were.
I don't understand why some prayers are answered and some are seemingly not, I do know that when we pray "They will be done" we are also saying, that "if you don't answer my prayer according to what I want, give me grace and mercy"

Then wouldn't it make more sense to just let, "Thy will be done"? I mean, if god is going to do what he wants anyway, why bother praying? Btw-

I was brought up Catholic and used to pray every night as a kid before bed. I always felt guilty asking god for things. I felt guilty knowing I had food and a roof over my head, while others who were much more worthy than I, didn't. I couldn't understand that.

No offense, but in cases like Hurricane Katrina, or other castrophies, I find it to be the epitome of arrogance when one parent praises god for saving their child, while standing next to them is the parent of a dead child who didn't make it. I mean, what are they thinking?! But I guess we should forgive them, because... "They know not what they do".

God wants us to come to him with our concerns, He wants to inhabit our lives. His will is going to be done, but he also answers our prayers. As believers we grieve for those who lose loved ones and we praise Him with those who were OK. I lost a friend due to Katrina and I still grieve that loss, she left a child, and only child and she was a widow, so both of this young man's parents are gone.
I don't understand it all, but I know He is real, I know there are things that are just beyond my understanding, but I trust His heart.

God wants us to come to him with our concerns, He wants to inhabit our lives. His will is going to be done, but he also answers our prayers. As believers we grieve for those who lose loved ones and we praise Him with those who were OK. I lost a friend due to Katrina and I still grieve that loss, she left a child, and only child and she was a widow, so both of this young man's parents are gone.
I don't understand it all, but I know He is real, I know there are things that are just beyond my understanding, but I trust His heart.

If nothing else, I admire what it must be like to be able to place such faith in something. To not hold god accountable for all that is wrong with the world, to render him blameless for the untold suffering and misery when he could fix it in the blink of an eye, and then to praise him for the random events that turn out well.

I very much disagree with it and find it totally irrational (and often immoral by the way), but I do admire what it must be like to have such faith in something. Good luck and Merry Christmas!

I appreciate what you are saying. Man does the evil in the world not God. He had given us free will. Those you believe do so by choice. God does not sit up there pulling strings. He has given us guidelines to follow but He allows us to do as we choose and the world to turn on it's axis. But there will be a time when He will say "that's it" and people will have to answer for the wrong they have done and those who believe will be with him. All those wrongs will be made right.
I do appreciate the respectful way your questions were asked.
Merry Christmas to you as well.

Man does the evil in the world not God.

But I have to take exception to this! What evil did your unborn children do? What evil has an 11 year girl who is suffering terribly and about to die from cancer commit? Or all the babies who die from SIDS, or who were drowned in Hurricane Katrina?

Can you see why I have a problem with this? It seems believers want to have it both ways. When something goes right it's, "Praise be to God!". When something goes wrong it's, "Oh, well it was just God's will".

If a terrible death befalls an adult tomorrow, I can accept you blaming all the evil in the world. But I don't see how that can wash when we're talking about innocent children who couldn't possibly have done harm to anyone and certainly weren't evil.

Clarify this and you'll have me on the road towards being convinced. Like I said, I was a believer well into my teens. But not being able to reconcile these types of issues were what led me to becoming an atheist. When I realized there was no god, it all started making sense. With a god, it makes no sense. Especially not when we're talking about a loving, omnipotent one. Can you help me out?

I understand what you're saying. I just don't see God's hand in the bad things that happen to people.
God does not want children to die, or creeps to harm children, he does not want man to sin, but he does not control us. There is sickness in the world, has always been, our bodies are corruptible.
I wish I had answers, but I don't.

Thanks homegirl. Last question then I won't bug you anymore...



I understand what you're saying. I just don't see God's hand in the bad things that happen to people.

Then can you please, please, explain why you see His hand in the GOOD that happens to people? Either God intervenes or He doesn't. Which is it?

But I have to take exception to this! What evil did your unborn children do? What evil has an 11 year girl who is suffering terribly and about to die from cancer commit? Or all the babies who die from SIDS, or who were drowned in Hurricane Katrina?

Can you see why I have a problem with this? It seems believers want to have it both ways. When something goes right it's, "Praise be to God!". When something goes wrong it's, "Oh, well it was just God's will".

If a terrible death befalls an adult tomorrow, I can accept you blaming all the evil in the world. But I don't see how that can wash when we're talking about innocent children who couldn't possibly have done harm to anyone and certainly weren't evil.

Clarify this and you'll have me on the road towards being convinced. Like I said, I was a believer well into my teens. But not being able to reconcile these types of issues were what led me to becoming an atheist. When I realized there was no god, it all started making sense. With a god, it makes no sense. Especially not when we're talking about a loving, omnipotent one. Can you help me out?

It all goes back to Adam and Eve lobroster. When they ate of the tree they sinned, they knew evil then. God told them if they ate they would surely die. He didn't mean right at that moment, but that man would die. All was perfect before that and would have continued that way had thy not ate of the tree of knowledge. It was man, NOT God who brought suffering, strife and sinners into this world.

Okay, so now you may wonder why then, knowing the bad and evil that would come, would God have even allowed the tree. This is because God wants people to choose to love Him, choose to follow him. If they had no options then Adam & Eve wouldn't have had a choice, would they?

Why then does God allow bad things to happen to good people, to innocent people, you may wonder. Even you as an atheist know that when things are going good many people aren't as faithful to God. If everything went good then why would we need God in our earthly life? If things were always good why would we even call on God to begin with? You see, not always, but many people call on God for salvation when they are at their lowest of lows, or in dire need and trouble. God never called trouble and strife on us, man did.

You said when something goes right we praise God, but when it goes wrong we say it's God's will. Nothing about God is bad, things are bad because of the world. When things go bad we cannot justifiably blame God because things would not have been this way was it not for man. But God offers us courage, comfort, strength and love to get through those times. Therefore if we want it, we need to go to Him in prayer, talk to Him, ask. We praise God when things go well because we thank Him for giving and allowing us things going right.

This is what I believe wholeheartedly. Since God is nothing but good, since He does not and never did want bad, I do not believe His will is ever bad. God did not cause strife, man did. So when something bad happens I do not believe it is God's will, but the cause of the world. Let's take for example someone you love with cancer. It is not God's will that your loved one got cancer, it is the cause of the what's in this bad and sinful world. Here is where God's will does kick in. You pray and pray that God will heal them and allow them more time with you. I believe it to be God's will whether He answers your prayer or not. See, He didn't cause the cancer, but He can rid it... if it's in His will. Many people look at it the wrong way. Instead of wondering why he doesn't rid of cancer we should be wondering why He does rid of it. We should be wondering why He was gracious enough to rid someone of cancer. Lobrobster, we are not deserving of God's grace. But He is gracious because He loves us because He wants good for us. But we cannot have the good He wants for us in this world. So if God does take the loved one who has cancer there is a reason He did it. There is a reason He did rid the cancer. If He does rid of it then there is a reason He got rid of it. But He is not to blame for the cancer in the first place. Do you see what I mean?

Why must we suffer because of Adam and Eve? I can't answer that. But I find comfort in knowing that it won't be for long. That when I die or if Jesus comes back before then I will no longer have to worry about sorrow, strife, evil and sin. I will live forever in perfection, love and being loved like nothing and no one in this world can give, being with God in bliss for all eternity, bliss that God intended from the get go.

When people stop blaming God for the bad, they will then be able to see His goodness... even in the midst of all this bad.

Lobrobster, prayer is not futile. For one it is a way for us to talk to God. It is a way for us to be as close to Him as we can get in this world. It is for asking for forgiveness and getting guidance, strength to live in this world and comfort. Prayer is also for asking. But remember this. Why should God give to anyone who doesn't do anything for Him? I truly believe that if you do the best you can according to Him, He will heed your prayers. Therefore it is not futile to pray. It is a necessity in the Christian walk of life.

Thanks homegirl. Last question then I won't bug ya anymore...




Then can you please, please, explain why you see His hand in the GOOD that happens to people? Either God intervenes or He doesn't. Which is it?
Good things happen to good and bad people. He sun shines and it rains on the just and the unjust. Such is life. Good happens, people make good choices, things fall into place, and sometimes, for whatever reason, God intervenes and or answers prayer. When His face shines on me, I thank Him, when the sun shines, I thank Him, it is His creation, as is the rain and storms. My life is not going to be pain or grief free, but He gives me peace and mercy in the midst of it and for that I thank Him.

...and sometimes, for whatever reason, God intervenes and or answers prayer.

Well again... I really appreciate your attempt to explain this to me. I think this is the impasse we'll never get resolved.

"for whatever reason" is just not a good enough answer for me when we're talking about all the terrible suffering some very good people go through, while (according to you), God chooses to help others much less deserving.

Imagine you had three children, two of who were stricken with a painful, suffering disease. How on earth could you ever justify helping one, but not the other? Plucking your one child out of misery, while watching your other suffer a slow, painful, agonizing death?

And if you really did have such powers, would you honestly expect your 3rd child to idolize and worship you, after having allowed one of his siblings such a fate? When all you had to do was snap your fingers and his fallen brother/sister could've been healed? I could never respect such a parent/god and certainly couldn't consider him loving. Cruel in the most extreme sense, would be more apt.

I certainly don't mean to put down those individuals who worship such a god. I'd just like to get them to think a little more about what they're worshipping.

Well again... I really appreciate your attempt to explain this to me. I think this is the impasse we'll never get resolved.

"for whatever reason" is just not a good enough answer for me when we're talking about all the terrible suffering some very good people go through, while (according to you), God chooses to help others much less deserving.

Imagine you had three children, two of who were stricken with a painful, suffering disease. How on earth could you ever justify helping one, but not the other? Plucking your one child out of misery, while watching your other suffer a slow, painful, agonizing death?

And if you really did have such powers, would you honestly expect your 3rd child to idolize and worship you, after having allowed one of his siblings such a fate? When all you had to do was snap your fingers and his fallen brother/sister could've been healed? I could never respect such a parent/god and certainly couldn't consider him loving. Cruel in the most extreme sense, would be more apt.

I certainly don't mean to put down those individuals who worship such a god. I'd just like to get them to think a little more about what they're worshipping.

I know you are talking to homegirl here, but I would like to respond if you do not mind.

Again I will say, blame cannot be put on God for the bad in this world. Why must you know what God's reason are for healing some and not others? How can you possibly know why God does what He does? You have a hard time understanding why He doesn't heal some, but truth be told you don't know why He DOES heal some. Oh but you don't question Him when He does heal people, just when He doesn't. He's good and all when He does, but He's bad when He doesn't. We don't know His reasons, but there is a reason. Even if you did believe in God like homegirl and I, you still wouldn't know why He heals some and not others. Man is the cause of the terrible in this world. It was perfect in the beginning and they chose the other way. Yet even after God gave them perfection and they disobeyed Him He still offers us a way for perfection again. The direction of your focus is on the wrong thing. Do not focus on this world, but on how to get to what really matters which is God, Heaven, perfection, love eternal. That is our purpose in this life... to learn about God, spread it around, win souls for what really matters... your life here after.

Why must you know what God's reason are for healing some and not others?

Well, I guess it's because I'm logical. What I'm really asking here is this:

Why do you hold God to a different set of moral standards than you would for anyone else? If you were to witness me helping my one child, and then stand there doing nothing while I watched my other child drown helplessly in a wading pool, you would consider me to be among the cruelest of parents! You would NOT say, "Oh, well let's not question why he stood there and did nothing while one child drowned, let's only appreciate the fact that he saved his other child".

I just don't think you can have it both ways. If you claim God does not intervene, then fine. But to claim He intervenes sometimes, and not others is to admit your god is either unjust, not omnipotent, or just doesn't give a hoot. I'd accept any of these notions. But to say he intervenes only when he wants is to beg the question: Then why not help all the other deserving souls?

Also, please understand that I'm not looking to stir trouble. I'm honestly trying to understand how the believer mind works. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm concerned for my own children who must grow up in a world where people would want nothing more than to saw their heads off, because they don't believe in a particular god or brand of religion. I think religion at it's base concept is irrational and potentially very dangerous.

I'm sure people like yourself and homegirl are not dangerous. But your axioms are. It's not a gigantic step to go from where you are, to justifying just about anything in the name of god and religion. How can you honestly tell a terrorist his beliefs are wrong, when neither of you require the same rationale for your beliefs and actions that you would expect anyone to have with any other subject except religion?

God's ways are not ours, we cannot possibly understand God, and I don't try to. He does not go around zapping things into shape. There would be no reason to acknowledge or worship Him. He would be in total control and things would be perfect. We would have no free will. It used to be that way and Adam and Eve chose to do their thing and choice was then given to all. In my humanness, I don't understand the whys, He sees and knows what I do not, cannot, He sees the big picture, I see the here and now. I guess this is where faith comes in. Although I don't see and understand, I trust God.

God is perfect and we are not. We cannot attempt to understand Him by human reasonings or we degrade Him to our level. To understand Him, we must be lifted by His grace to an understanding of Him nearer to His level. We cannot ast human sttributes on God, but must attempt to see Him through perfection, to see ourselves through His eyes, not see Him through our eyes.

Job 10
Job: I Would Plead with God
1 “My soul loathes my life;
I will give free course to my complaint,
I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
2 I will say to God, 'Do not condemn me;
Show me why You contend with me.

3 Does it seem good to You that You should oppress,
That You should despise the work of Your hands,
And smile on the counsel of the wicked?

4 Do You have eyes of flesh?
Or do You see as man sees?

5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man?
Are Your years like the days of a mighty man,

6 That You should seek for my iniquity
And search out my sin,

7 Although You know that I am not wicked,
And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand?

8 'Your hands have made me and fashioned me,
An intricate unity;
Yet You would destroy me.

9 Remember, I pray, that You have made me like clay.
And will You turn me into dust again?

10 Did You not pour me out like milk,
And curdle me like cheese,

11 Clothe me with skin and flesh,
And knit me together with bones and sinews?

12 You have granted me life and favor,
And Your care has preserved my spirit.

13 'And these things You have hidden in Your heart;
I know that this was with You:

14 If I sin, then You mark me,
And will not acquit me of my iniquity.

15 If I am wicked, woe to me;
Even if I am righteous, I cannot lift my head.
I am full of disgrace;
See my misery!

16 If my head is exalted,
You hunt me like a fierce lion,
And again You show Yourself awesome against me.

17 You renew Your witnesses against me,
And increase Your indignation toward me;
Changes and war are ever with me.

18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb?
Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me!

19 I would have been as though I had not been.
I would have been carried from the womb to the grave.

20 Are not my days few?
Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,

21 Before I go to the place from which I shall not return,
To the land of darkness and the shadow of death,

22 A land as dark as darkness itself,
As the shadow of death, without any order,
Where even the light is like darkness.'”

Job argues with God about the state of his welfare. Satan asked God if he could test Job and God agreed. Nothing happens in this life without God's knowledge. He may not choose what satan dishes out, but He is aware. Job ended saying: Job 13:15
Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
Job 13:14-16 (in Context) Job 13 (Whole Chapter)

Even though Job had everything taken from him: his wealth, family and health, he did not turn his back on the LORD and he was blessed with double what was stolen.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

But to say he intervenes only when he wants is to beg the question: Then why not help all the other deserving souls?

Homegirl hit it on the head with her post below yours.
I hate that you must know His reasons in order to believe in Him, love Him and trust Him, but you can't possibly know why He does everything that He does. Again, you are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of wondering why he doesn't make everything good you should be wondering why He does the good He does do. We don't deserve His grace period. You have difficulty seeing and understanding because you are thinking wrong from the get go. You said, Why doesn't He help other "deserving" souls? Who's deserving lobrobster?

Listen to what savedsinner said. You cannot look at God through your eyes.
How do you expect to understand the ways of an infinite God with your finite ability to understand? But know this lobrobster, God is nothing but good, therefore you can be sure that even when you don't understand why He does some things, or allows some things, that there is a reason for it. There is a reason, a reason you may not see or understand, but there is one.
Lobrobster, you will never see that God is nothing but good if you continue to think that He does bad things. God does not and never did have anything to do with the bad. Bad is of the world, God is not of the world!


Also, please understand that I'm not looking to stir trouble. I'm honestly trying to understand how the believer mind works. It doesn't make sense to me.

I never thought you were trying to stir up trouble. In fact I encourage you to ask. Please ask about anything you don't understand or want to know about. This site is about asking questions, but sometimes we just want to discuss, so if ever you just want to discuss something then you are more than welcome to send me a private message.

Psalm 69:5
O God, You know my foolishness;And my sins are not hidden from You.
Psalm 69:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 69 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ the Power and Wisdom of God ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:17-19 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1 Corinthians 1:20-22 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 1:24-26 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;
1 Corinthians 3:18-20 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 3 (Whole Chapter)


This is why it's hard to understand a believer's mind when you are not one. God says you can't unless you believe.

So if god tells someone to fly a plane into a skyscraper, do you think they should go ahead and do it? What if god told YOU to do that! Would you?

I understand these sound like sarcastic questions, but I really don't mean them to be. Once you realize that there really are people in this world who think god talks to them and tells them to do such vile acts, it's well... Sobering to say the least.

So is it safe to say (in your case), that you would obey god if he directed you in a peaceful way, but would reject him if he were to direct you to commit an act of violence?

If this is doubled I apologize I had trouble submitting the first answer.

If what you perceive God to be saying to you does not line up with the teachings of the Bible what you hear is NOT the voice of God. Nowhere in the Bible that I read does it teach that we should go out and commit suicide in an attempt to murder others.

I'll be up front and admit I'm an atheist.

I was an atheist from the age of 13 to the age of 27 (approximately, its not like I kept a diary or anything)..


But I'm genuinely curious... What's a typical prayer session like for you?

That is not a simple question. But let me give you the metaphor which is provided by Scripture:

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.

Scripture likens the love of one's wife to the love one has for God. Is it always easy to love your wife?

For me, thanks be to God, most times, it is easy to love my wife. But sometimes, it isn't.

In the same way, sometimes, I pray with my heart and soul. But sometimes I pray to fulfill my duty to God.

I hope that answers your question.


What do you pray for?

That God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And for the perseverance to love Him all the days of my life.


What do you say to God?

What ever I comes to mind. Sometimes praise and love overflow my heart and that is all that I can think of saying. But at other times I complain about the way He is running my life.


Has God ever said anything to you (not being sarcastic, just an honest question)?

Yes.


Have any of your prayers been answered?

Yes.


And if so, what makes you think it was God that answered and not some random chance event?

I no longer believe in random chance events.

[quote]Again, I'm curious what it's like for people who actually believe they are talking to an invisible god. With all sincerity, I imagine it can be very theraputic. I meditate and wonder if prayer is anything like that?[/QUOTE

Well, yes and no. When I was atheist I used to practice a little bit of yoga and self hyptnosis to relax.

Prayer is like that usually. But when I'm "on fire", its more like someone takes my heart in their hand and squeezes it. Sometimes it is literally painful. It feels as though my heart is about to burst. But it isn't unpleasant.

I guess you might ask, "are you sure you aren't having a heart attack?"

And I'd have to answer, "no". But that isn't the usual symptom of a heartattack. As I understand it, usually, the left arm aches and the person turns a pale color. And then of course the person collapses. . None of those things have ever happened to me. And my doctor says I'm perfectly healthy. So, as far as I can see, its got something to do with the prayer, cause that's the only time it happens..

I hope that answers your question,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Nowhere in the Bible that I read does it teach that we should go out and commit suicide in an attempt to murder others.

No, but perhaps another person's book says it's OK. Now if you're saying it's OK to believe things on unfounded evidence, how then do you deny someone of another faith this same right? You can't very well label him as irrational when your standards for belief are no different than his.

Btw- Are you really a chaplain who knows something about this (on a professional level)? If so, I think it's great that you post here. I don't know anyone very knowledgeable that I can ask questions to.

When you talk about our perception not lining up with the teachings in the bible... What about biblical passages which if taken literally, would lead to what we now would consider immoral acts? Such as:

Isn't there a passage which states that if a man finds on his wedding night that the woman he is about to marry is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father's doorstep?

Doesn't the bible imply that if a kid disobeys his parents, it's OK to kill him?

Or that if you catch somebody working on the Sabbath day, they should be put to death?

What about the condoning of slavery in the bible? The abuse of women? Etc...

I realize reasonable people don't take these things seriously, but all these things are in the bible, are they not? So what if my perception was to take this literally and I went out and killed someone for working on the Sabbath? Would you conisder me wrong to have done so?

No, but perhaps another person's book says it's ok. Now if you're saying it's ok to believe things on unfounded evidence, how do you deny him the right to do the same? You can't very well label him as irrational when your standards for belief are no different than his.

Btw- Are you really a chaplain who knows something about this (on a professional level)? If so, I think it's great that you post here. I don't know anyone very knowledgable that I can ask questions to.

When you talk about our perception not lining up with the teachings in the bible... What about biblical passages which if taken literally, would lead to what we now would consider immoral acts? Such as:

Isn't there a passage which states that if a man finds on his wedding night that the woman he is about to marry is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father's doorstep?

Doesn't the bible imply that if a kid disobeys his parents, it's ok to kill him?

Or that if you catch somebody working on the Sabbath day, they should be put to death?

What about the condoning of slavery in the bible? The abuse of women? Etc...

I realize reasonable people don't take these things seriously, but all these things are in the bible, are they not? So what if my perception was to take this literally and I went out and killed someone for working on the Sabbath? Would you conisder me wrong to have done so?

These things you are referring to are in the Old Testament, the old covenant. Jesus came and made a New Covenant with His people.

He gave us two commandments:
Matthew 22:37-39 (New King James Version)
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]

God is perfect and we are not. We cannot attempt to understand Him by human reasonings

But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

I guess I've learned all that I'm going to learn about this. I don't want to feel that I'm degrading you guys, or that I'm in opposition. I have sincere questions that I guess cannot be answered. It's frustrating.

If you were to say that God does not intervene, we'd be done with this by now. That would explain the atrocities and suffering in the world. But when you say He intervenes sometimes, but not others, this presents a very huge problem, which you deal with by simply ignoring it. The differenc between us is I cannot ignore it.

These things you are referring to are in the Old Testament, the old covenant. Jesus came and made a New Covenant with His people.

He gave us two commandments:
Matthew 22:37-39 (New King James Version)
37 Jesus said to him, “ 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]

Thank you for your response -

I can certainly agree that the New Testament is gentler and more in accordance with our 21st century values than the OT. But still...

The Lord that Jesus asks us to love with all our heart, is the very same Lord who espoused such barbaric propositions in the OT. It's the same God who had Abraham come within seconds of killing his son presumably for no other reason than His own amusement (imagine the sheer terror that went through this child's mind as he watched his father prepare to kill him).

So if you're saying we can just throw the OT out, or dismiss it as ancient man's misinterpretation of God, I'll accept that. But I don't think that's what you're saying, are you?

And the NT does present one claim which is perhaps more barbaric than anything the OT has to offer (if that's possible). The concept of hell... Can there be any crueler concept than that of sending someone to a place where they suffer, and burn, and gnash their teeth in agony forever and ever until the end of time?

I'm a parent and I can't think of a single act of disobedience my children could commit that would make me wish such an unmitigated horror upon them. Yet, this loving God is willing to carry out such a sentence for the mere crime of apostasy? I say "mere crime", because He has provided us with the power of logic, yet has not provided a single shred of evidence that He actually exists. And if He does exist, He has allowed hundreds of other religions to flourish without any logical means of determining the "right" one, except for having the sheerest of luck to be born into the right family or geographical location on earth. Do you deny that had you been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents you wouldn't be worshipping Allah instead of the Judao-Christian God? So if God exists, He employs trickery in the cruelest sense.

So it turns out that the NT even with all its gentler teachings might just be more barbaric than anything in the OT with the introduction of hell.

Seriously... I know my comments may seem to have the purpose of being argumentative and I'm sure you'll lose patience with me at some point. But as I already stated, I used to be a Christian and these are just some of the things that led me to becoming an atheist. But I'm open minded. I'm throwing my issues on the table to see how better Christians respond. I want to know how you make sense of these things where I could not. I want to know if I may ever be able to make sense of them and return to faith. Thanks again.

But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

No one here has claimed to completely understand God. We are to try to think as God would, live as God would, love as God would, etc. When we read our Bibles, we attend church and other Bible studies, we pray and talk with God, we ask for understanding, and with all of this we learn more about God, and we understand more about God. But never did we claim, nor do we think we can possibly completely understand all there is to understand. Not with this imperfect mind anyway. God is infinite. We, with these finite minds, are limited to what we can understand. But we believe that God gives us what we need to know if we search for it in spirit and meaningfully.

No one here has claimed to completely understand God.

But c'mon Tara, you ARE claiming to know at least enough about Him to reach certain conclusions. As I said before...

If you didn't proclaim divine intervention in the first place, I could've left this alone a long time ago. But when someone claims it was God who saved their child, or made their life better in some way, then they should be held accountable for the children who are not saved, or who's lives are intolerable. Again, you can't have it both ways no matter how much you insist that you can. Either He intervenes, or He does not. Take your pick. If He doesn't intervene or answer prayers, then it makes sense and we can stop right here. But when you start crediting God for all that is good, while claiming He has nothing to do with the bad, you are only kidding yourself.

What started this whole tangent for me was another poster claiming that God had saved her sick child. While I couldn't be happier that her daughter is OK, how dare she claim that God chose to save HER kid, while at that very moment another child was dying at the hands of an abusive parent, or choking to death on a chicken bone, a marbel, or their own vomit! Just how arrogant does one have to be to think that their child is any more important to God than another child?

Sorry... This gets me really riled. I think you guys should just say that God does not intervene and leave it at that. But until you do, I think the rest of us rational thinkers have every right to hold you, your beliefs, and your god accountable for helping some, but not others who are just as deserving.

But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

I guess I've learned all that I'm going to learn about this. I don't want to feel that I'm degrading you guys, or that I'm in opposition. I have sincere questions that I guess cannot be answered. It's frustrating.

If you were to say that God does not intervene, we'd be done with this by now. That would explain the atrocities and suffering in the world. But when you say He intervenes sometimes, but not others, this presents a very huge problem, which you deal with by simply ignoring it. The differenc between us is I cannot ignore it.


Sometimes God does not intervene. He allows circumstances in our lives to show us how much we need Him. He uses this to give us the opportunity to turn our hearts to Him. As for understanding what cannot be understood, this is called faith.

The concept of hell...
Was not created for man. It was created as a punishment for Satan. However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice. He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect. Those who do not turn to Him will be sent to Hell. Not God's choosing, but by our own.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Job 36:12
But if they do not obey,They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-29 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Sometimes God does not intervene. He allows circumstances in our lives to show us how much we need Him.

You keep saying this, while ignoring the logical consequences of such an implication. When you say, "faith" (like you did at the end of your post), I'm willing to accect that and we can be done. Faith by definition is belief in the absence of evidence (or even in the face of contradictory evidence, which is the case here). So if you just want to say, "I don't know. It's ALL faith", I'll say fine.

But when you make statements like the one above, it demands explanation. Why? Because it doesn't make sense if you don't also explain why you extend the leeway to God that you wouldn't expect any reasonable person to extend in any other situation! Suppose...

I'm driving in a desert with a tankload of water when I come upon 3 stranded people who are dehydrated and dying of thirst. It wouldn't take much for me to provide all of them with enough water to relieve their misery. Instead, I give water to one, while ignoring the other two and watching them suffer and die of dehydration. Wouldn't you you question my cruelty? Wouldn't you even think to ask me why I helped one, but not the others? Why I stood there watching one quench his thirst, while letting the others die as they begged me for water?

Don't be silly! Of course you would! Yet, when it comes to God, the rules of common sense, logic, and reason cease to exist. No longer do you question a lack of mercy and moral decency we would expect even from a common crimminal! Why is that?

However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice.

Has no choice? Are you saying that an omnipotent, omnisentient Creator who made the entire universe, and who can simultaneously hear and answer billions of prayers, part a sea, flood the entire earth, etc. is powerless to forgive someone who was unfortunate enough to be born in a place where people think Allah is the real God?


He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect.

What do you mean by sin? Aren't we ALL sinners? If I understand things right, even a convicted murderer can be saved on his deathbed if he repents and accepts Jesus as his Savior. Is this incorrect? Why then, can't someone be forgiven for being born in the wrong geographical location, or having the misfortune of having parents who were Jewish, instead of Christian? Or even somebody like myself, who sees no compelling reason to believe any gods exist?

Yes, lobrobster, we are all sinners. Jesus died for us and if we choose to believe in what he did for us we will be cleansed from our sins.

God's mercy is perfect. However, many still choose to turn their backs on Him and He will not be taken for granted. He is Holy. He is Perfect and we cannot know His ways unless He reveals them to us.

Maybe you should check out Not Religion! - Home (http://www.notreligion.com) and 1-888-NEED HIM - Why Am I Here? What Makes My Life So Hard? Answers to Life's Greatest Questions (http://www.needhim.org)

You may find more of the answers you are looking for.

Yes, lobrobster, we are all sinners. Jesus died for us and if we choose to believe in what he did for us we will be cleansed from our sins.

God's mercy is perfect. However, many still choose to turn their backs on Him and He will not be taken for granted. He is Holy. He is Perfect and we cannot know His ways unless He reveals them to us.

Maybe you should check out Not Religion! - Home (http://www.notreligion.com) and 1-888-NEED HIM - Why Am I Here? What Makes My Life So Hard? Answers to Life's Greatest Questions (http://www.needhim.org)

You may find more of the answers you are looking for.

Thank you for the links. I'll check them out. Here's a question...

Do you think that when we die, we are given a chance to repent? Or must this be done BEFORE we die? Of course, if I were to see Jesus in heaven, I'd believe in Him. If I were to even see a heaven, I'd believe in heaven.

What about Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and those from other religions? Will they have a chance to convert after they die? Or are they doomed to eternal torture and suffering because they happened to have been brought up in the wrong religion?

And what about you? How do you account for the fact that you happen to belong to the "right" religion? Is it because you're smarter than all Hindus, Muslims, and Jews? Or is it some other reason? When I was a Christian I wondered about this all the time... What made me think I had inside info on God that all other religions didn't have?

Revelation 20
Satan Bound 1000 Years
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

May I recommend the book Driven By Eternity by John Bevere. Its an alegory that is about the judgment and heaven and hell. There is also an audio CD of a dramatization of this called Affabel. It explains this very well.

Was not created for man. It was created as a punishment for Satan. However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice. He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect. Those who do not turn to Him will be sent to Hell. Not God's choosing, but by our own.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Job 36:12
But if they do not obey,They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-29 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!! I could not have said it better myself. God did not create Hell for man! If anyone goes to hell it is their own fault. Their own choice. Yes!! Great response. I still have not spread enough reputation to rate your answer or I would have savedsinner.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!! I could not have said it better myself. God did not create Hell for man!! If anyone goes to hell it is their own fault. Their own choice. Yes!!! Great response. I still have not spread enough reputation to rate your answer or I would have savedsinner.

I didn't say it, the LORD did, I just pointed out His words. He does love each, but allows us to make our choice to serve Him or not. He will not force anyone to follow Him.

You see, my words are His words. I share with you what I know of Him, what He has revealed to me. Please see my profile for my experiences. This may help you to understand me better.

You see, my words are His words. I share with you what I know of Him, what He has revealed to me. Please see my profile for my experiences. This may help you to understand me better.

I just read your profile and I think it's very impressive! If belief in Jesus gave you the strength to turn your life around, I think that's great! I was in a similar situation through my teens and early twenties. I also turned things around, although without faith. So there's more than one way to achieve a means.

I also think you're a very valuable member to this forum. It's good to have someone as knowledgeable as you are about Christianity. But I think it's wrong to preach unless specifically asked to do so. Many here are not looking for a sermon, but want honest advice or answers from real people. For instance...

There's this rabbi who devoted his whole life to pleasing God, and he did many wonderful things to help people in need throughout his life. Now if I ask do Christians believe that this man will burn in hell for eternity because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior? Cite scripture if you must.

But if I ask how you as a Christian can accept such a hidious belief, I'm not looking for scripture! I want to know how you reconcile this fact and live with it. That's a question that requires your honest human response. Does that make any sense?

There's this rabbi who devoted his whole life to pleasing God, and he did many wonderful things to help people in need throughout his life. Now if I ask do Christians believe that this man will burn in hell for eternity because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior? Go ahead and cite scripture if you must.

But if I ask how you as a Christian can accept such a hidious belief, I'm not looking for scripture! I want to know how you reconcile this fact and live with it. That's a question that requires your honest human response. Does that make any sense?

In this instance I would say that had he devoted his life to pleasing God then He would have accepted Jesus as his savior.

Yes, if he does not accept Jesus as his savior then he will go to hell. I don't think this is a hidious belief. God tells us what we must do to go to heaven and how to avoid hell. Therefore if you do not do ask for salvation then who do you have to blame other than yourself? How can you blame God that people go to hell when they have the opportunity to be saved and go to heaven? When they know if they don't accept Christ they will go to hell? How is it God's fault that they chose hell?

You guide your child and tell them what they should and shouldn't do. If they do what you tell them not to, is that your fault? Do you think you are wrong for punishing them? Does punishing them for their wrong doings make you a bad person?

Read the page I provide as a link below. This may help you to better understand what Christians believe happen to children, mentally handicapped and other people who are incapable of understanding God's Word. You may not agree and you may have more questions on it, but give it a go. Maybe you will gain more understanding.
Do mentally ill people go to heaven? Does God show mercy to those who are mentally retarded, challenged, disabled, or handicapped? (http://www.gotquestions.org/mentally-challenged.html)

And read this answer about why God allows some to suffer and why He heals some.
Why do so many people have to experience terrible suffering before death? (http://www.gotquestions.org/suffering-death.html)

An answer to the question, "How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?"
How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin? (http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html)

In this instance I would say that had he devoted his life to pleasing God then He would have accepted Jesus as his savior.

But how?! He's a Jewish rabbi for cryin' out loud! Rabbis do not, cannot, believe that Jesus was the Son of God.


Yes, if he does not accept Jesus as his savior then he will go to hell. I don't think this is a hidious belief.

How can you find it anything but morally obscene that a good, gentle, pious man who had devoted his entire life to God, is sentenced (by the very same God he worshipped) to eternal torture and punishment on a technicality? This is what I mean. Scripture doesn't cut it here. You are accepting a complete abomination of morality and justice. How are you justifying calling this a loving god, when no human being with an ounce of compassion would treat their worst enemy this way?


God tells us what we must do to go to heaven and how to avoid hell.

Let me ask you a serious question... Do you honestly think that if you had been born in Iraq to Muslim parents that you wouldn't be worshipping Allah and the koran right now? I think if you had been born in Israel, you'd be Jewish right now. Had you been born in India, you'd be Hindu, or a Buddhist. Had you been born someplace in Africa, you'd be worshing the ju-ju on the mountain. It is only by the sheerest of accidents you happen to be Christian. And THIS is what has you convinced you're religion is right?

Or is it that you think Christians are smarter than Muslims? Or Jews? Or Hindus who are just as convinced they are right about their beliefs?

The point I'm making is, that rabbi is every bit as convinced he's right about god as you are! And you have no edge over a practicing rabbi. He's just as likely to be right about god as you are, and undoubtedly more so.

Certainly if there's a loving God He understands this. He understands that a Jew cannot believe what a Christian does. So you've got a HUGE problem if you believe he did everything else right, but will still burn in hell for eternity because he got one technicality about Jesus wrong. Like I said, it's a hidious concept. What if YOU'RE wrong and it is Allah you should be worshipping?

I would rather spend my life pursuing Jesus and be wrong, then not follow Him and find our He really is.

I would rather spend my life pursuing Jesus and be wrong, then not follow Him and find our He really is.

No problem. We can let this die. I've enjoyed corresponding with you. But I hope you consider that there are hundreds of different religions out there practiced by people just as smart as yourself. So Christianity is a huge longshot to be the right belief. And if there really IS a god who sends people to hell, and He's NOT the Christian God... You're probably in more trouble than an atheist.

Let me ask you a serious question... Do you honestly think that if you had been born in Iraq to Muslim parents that you wouldn't be worshipping Allah and the koran right now? I think if you had been born in Israel, you'd be Jewish right now. Had you been born in India, you'd be Hindu, or a Buddhist. Had you been born someplace in Africa, you'd be worshing the ju-ju on the mountain. It is only by the sheerest of accidents you happen to be Christian. And THIS is what has you convinced you're religion is right?

No, I have said on this board before in another thread that I am grateful to God that I was born to Chrisitian parents. I am grateful that I did not have to sort through all other religions to find what I believe to be Truth. I also stated that I would like to think and hope that I would still be a Christian had I been born to believers of something different even if in another country, but I can't know for sure. Therefore I am grateful I didn't have to find out.
No, What convinces me that my religion is right is my faith in God. My faith that He is Truth. No, I don't believe this makes me better than anyone else or smarter than anyone else. But because of my faith, I do believe that what I believe in is correct. Do I go around telling people who believe differently that I'm right and they're wrong? No. I would tell them using the Word why I believe the way I do. I will let God do the rest. Because after I have told them, there is nothing I can do any longer other than pray. It will then be between the person and God.



Or is it that you think Christians are smarter than Muslims? Or Jews? Or Hindus who are just as convinced they are right about their beliefs?

Of course not! Again, it because of my faith that I am a Christian.



Certainly if there's a loving God He understands this. He understands that a Jew cannot believe what a Christian does. So you've got a HUGE problem if you believe he did everything else right, but will still burn in hell for eternity because he got one technicality about Jesus wrong. Like I said, it's a hidious concept. What if YOU'RE wrong and it is Allah you should be worshipping?

I cannot tell you what God will and won't do in these difficult situations. It is not nor will it ever be my place to judge anyone. And thank God for that! With that said this is what I believe...

I believe that God knows all people's hearts. Only He can and will judge in the end. He will know, for one, if He went to that person in spirit. Two, He will know whether that person truly accepted Him or denied Him. God is a just God. He is loving and merciful and graceful. Therefore I believe this... Let's take babies and children for example. It is my belief that if a child/baby dies before their ability to understand that they are sinners, that they must accept Jesus as their savior then they will not be sent to hell. I do not believe that our loving and merciful God will send someone to hell who does not have the ability to understand the things in which they must understand to make a choice. Same goes for mentally hanicapped. I believe this also goes for anyone in this world. I do not believe that anyone will go to hell, no matter their age or intellectual status, if they do not have the ability to know that they must except Jesus as their savior in order to go to heaven.
But understand this... God gives us all the ability to know right from wrong. This is instilled in us. The Bibe tells us that we will ALL stand before the Judgement Seat and will be judged for our doings, good or bad. People who have never heard His Word are not exempt from this because they still know right from wrong. I do not believe that these people can nor will be held accountable for not excepting Jesus if they never knew they must except Jesus.
I believe God is just. I believe that God knows what's in our hearts. God knows what we know and what we don't know. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Therefore I believe God will judge people justly based upon these things.

:EDIT: I wanted to add something else to this that I forgot to mention.
But know this as well. It is my belief that if a person denies God's salvation they will go to hell. There is no excuse. It is my belief that if a person denies salvation they KNOW what it is they are denying. They know what will happen if they deny. It is my belief that God gives them this understanding when He comes to them. As I said before, God knows our hearts and because I believe Him to be just, His decision is the just and correct one.

Lobrobster,
Also let me add this... Do you remember the story of Lazurus and the rich man? But notice this one particular thing out of the whole story and out of all the rich man said. Never once did the rich man ask to come out of hell. He asked for a drop of water, but he did not ask to come out of hell. Why do you think that is?

I am grateful that I did not have to sort through all other religions to find what I believe to be Truth.

So let's think about this... You have not researched any other religion, yet you are convinced that your religion is right. Do you buy cars like this? Would you make any other important decision in your life having learned only one side of a story? And this decision is so much MORE important than any earthly purchase or decision you could make! It involves your eternal soul! Yet you are not even willing to look into Islam or any other religion, preferring instead to just hope you were born into the right one? My you ARE a risk taker!

Seriously... I find it so hard to make these common sense points without coming off as insulting. I'm really trying hard to be respectful. But this is the epitome of arrogance! It's poor decision making at it's finest, barren of any semblence of logic whatsoever.



God is a just God. He is loving and merciful and graceful.

Yet we just concluded (with savedsinner) that God will sentence a gentle pious rabbi to eternity in hell. This is a man who devoted his entire life to God, but missed the fact that Jesus was divine, and instead just thought of him as a great teacher. Now God sends him to burn in hell forever. In no way, shape, or form, is this a loving just God.



I do not believe that our loving and merciful God will send someone to hell who does not have the ability to understand the things in which they must understand to make a choice.

Well then you must be including me here. I do not have the ability to suspend all logic and believe some of the outrageous claims in the bible. So I can still be saved, right?



Same goes for mentally hanicapped. I believe this also goes for anyone in this world. I do not believe that anyone will go to hell, no matter their age or intellectual status, if they do not have the ability to know that they must except Jesus as their savior in order to go to heaven.

At last! You are using logic and I can finally agree with you on something. I still don't think there's a god, but if there is, and He's loving, what you stated here is the only thing that makes sense.



It is my belief that if a person denies God's salvation they will go to hell. There is no excuse.

Well when do we get to make that determination? You see, right now I have no compelling reason to think a god exists. None... While the bible is good enough for you, it isn't for me. I don't believe what ancient man had to say about sky gods, because they didn't understand the world they were living in, the way we do now. They didn't know why volcanos erupted, or why tsunamis occurred. They didn't even know why the sun rose every day! There was once a volcano god, a god of the sea, a god of thunder, etc. Eventually all these gods went away as we began to understand our world. So what I'm asking is this...

I live a good life. I automatically do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I give to charity. I love and respect my fellow man. And while I do not believe in your god, I do not worship false gods. So when I die, if I come face to face with God or Jesus, I will obviously believe. It will be the very first time I ever had evidence they existed. So at that point, if God looks over my life and sees I was good, and He ask me to accept Him, I certainly would. So do I get into heaven? Or does He send me straight to hell?

So let's think about this... You have not researched any other religion, yet you are convinced that your religion is right. Do you buy cars like this? Would you make any other important decision in your life having learned only one side of a story? And this decision is so much MORE important than any earthly purchase or decision you could make! It involves your eternal soul! Yet you are not even willing to look into Islam or any other religion, preferring instead to just hope you were born into the right one? My you ARE a risk taker!

Actually I have researched other religions, not thoroughly, but I have, and not all of them either. But I will also admit that I was a Christian before learning anything of other religions. Even still I find Truth in Christianity so there is no point, that I find, in researching other religions. Call it risky, call it what you will, but it is how I feel. I am comforted in my choice, I am content in my choice, and I believe with all my heart that my choice is the correct choice, therefore I am not afraid for my eternal soul. And no, I am not hoping I was born into the right religion, I believe I WAS born into the right religion. Whether I was born into a Christian family or not I still had to make a choice. And I made it. This may not be good enough for you personally, and you may feel I am careless in my reasoning and ways, but I am content with it, therefore that is what matters to me. You do what is important and what matters to you. You're the one who must answer for your choices, not only in the end but even now.


Seriously... I find it so hard to make these common sense points without coming off as insulting. I'm really trying hard to be respectful. But this is the epitome of arrogance! It's poor decision making at it's finest, barren of any semblence of logic whatsoever.

I don't feel insulted by your opinions of my choices and beliefs. I mean it would be different if your intentions were to insult me, but I don't feel however, that this is your intentions. Even if I am wrong it still doesn't change anything. I enjoy discussing this with you. I want you to ask whatever you want to. I want you to understand my beliefs. I want you to comment about how you feel about it. I can explain to you why I feel and believe it is not the way you think it to be. Whether you agree in the end or not at least we know we talked about your questions and comments. See what I mean?
With that said let me comment on your comments. See, to you, it is common sense that my beliefs are wrong or not logical, but to me it is common sense to believe the way I do. I feel it is easy to see and know the same Truth that I know and see. Therefore, just as you can't understand why I can't see your point of view, I can't understand why you can't see mine. I don't believe that my contentment with my belief and decisions are arrogant at all! How is finding what I believe to be the correct choice, even if on the first try, bad decision making? But remember this lobrobster, even if you feel it is bad decision making who is the one that must answer for MY choices? Me.



Yet we just concluded (with savedsinner) that God will sentence a gentle pious rabbi to eternity in hell. This is a man who devoted his entire life to God, but missed the fact that Jesus was divine, and instead just thought of him as a great teacher. Now God sends him to burn in hell forever. In no way, shape, or form, is this a loving just God.

As I said before it is not my place to answer to why God chooses to do what He does. I am in no place to judge anyone. But I can tell you what I believe to be the way God will judge people. God knows whether that rabbi knew He must accept Jesus as his savior to enter heaven. Only God knows whether He came to that rabbi. Again, I believe God to be just. Therefore I do not think God will send anyone to heaven or hell unjustly.



Well then you must be including me here. I do not have the ability to suspend all logic and believe some of the outrageous claims in the bible. So I can still be saved, right?

This is not for me to say, and I won't say. I would not even look at an unsaved person and tell them they are going to hell. This is not my place. I will however read them the scripture and let God take care of the convicting and judging.



At last! You are using logic and I can finally agree with you on something. I still don't think there's a god, but if there is, and He's loving, what you stated here is the only thing that makes sense.

I am not just now using logic. It has always been my belief that God would not send someone to hell who, for one, could not understand it, or two, didn't have the knowledge necessary to know how to be saved and enter heaven. Never did I say otherwise.



Well when do we get to make that determination? You see, right now I have no compelling reason to think a god exists. None... While the bible is good enough for you, it isn't for me. I don't believe what ancient man had to say about sky gods, because they didn't understand the world they were living in, the way we do now. They didn't know why volcanos erupted, or why tsunamis occured. They didn't even know why the sun rose every day! There was once a volcano god, a god of the sea, a god of thunder, etc. Eventually all these gods went away as we began to understand our world. So what I'm asking is this...

I live a good life. I automatically do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I give to charity. I love and respect my fellow man. And while I do not believe in your god, I do not worship false gods. So when I die, if I come face to face with God or Jesus, I will obviously believe. It will be the very first time I ever had evidence they existed. So at that point, if God looks over my life and sees I was good, and He ask me to accept Him, I certainly would. So do I get into heaven? Or does He send me straight to hell?

No, I believe that once you die you have no other chances. So when you do see Jesus face to face it will be too late to make a choice. Because after you see Him there is no choice to be made. You will have no choice but to believe in Him as you will have the proof right in front of you. This is not what God wants. He wants you to have faith. Please don't wait until you see Him.
Again, accepting Jesus as your savior is how you get into heaven. Just being good will not get you into heaven. Therefore there will be people who did good things on this earth who will go to hell. You may think it is cruel. But let me ask you this... and I truly want you to think about this... If you do not believe in God then you do not believe in heaven. Why should you go to heaven when you don't believe there is one, even if you are a good person? Or if you denied the opportunity to go while you were on earth? Why should God allow a person into heaven who is being good "just in case" there is a heaven? God makes it clear what must be done to enter heaven. Why then, should He allow you there if you don't do what you clearly know you must do to get there?

lobrobster, may I ask you a question?

You are a parent. If your child is willfully disobedient, do you discipline?

If your child was to refuse to listen to your words of wisdom and chose a life of rebellion, drugs, destitution, or other unfavorable life, would you still love them?

Would you force them to follow your way?

Would you allow them the natural consequences associated with such choices?

lobrobster, may I ask you a question?

You are a parent. If your child is willfully disobedient, do you discipline?

If your child was to refuse to listen to your words of wisdom and chose a life of rebellion, drugs, destitution, or other unfavorable life, would you still love them?

Would you force them to follow your way?

Would you allow them the natural consequences associated with such choices?

All very good questions!

*I remember the first time I spanked my daughter. She was about 4, and 'll never forget the look on her face. It was at once a look of defiance, disbelief, and shock, as if she didn't know who I was. She didn't even cry, which surprised me because I gave her a pretty good whack. I spanked her again, harder this time wanting her to get the message. But it was the same thing. She still didn't cry! Her look was even more defiant this time, more of shock, and more like I was some stranger to her. I decided right then that I would never want to break such a strong will. It was the last time I ever spanked my kids. But of course, I do discipline them in other ways now.

As for your other questions, I think I might see what you're getting at.

Yes, you can only do so much for your kids to prepare them for the real world and if they stray into trouble or from your love, I suppose you have to let them go at some point. But here's the thing...

My love for my children is unconditional. They are always welcome to come back to me, no matter what their transgressions. And I would never lock them in a dungeonness basement even for a moment, let alone eternity!

This is what I ask YOU to think about! What loving parent would ever wish such a fate upon their child? There is no transgression my kids could make that would cause me to want to send them to hell where they suffer for eternity. On the contrary...

I would gladly take their place in hell, if it meant sparing them such a fate. Such is the love of a parent. Yet somehow you justify such a barbaric sentence as the product of a loving god? I just don't understand how.

Please don't say, "God does not/cannot"... Please! You claim god to be omnipotent. That means all-powerful, all knowing, and able to do anything (within logical reason). And we are to believe He can't spare his own children the hidious fate of hell? I don't buy it.

Yet somehow you justify such a barbaric sentence as the product of a loving god? I just don't understand how.

Oh how God is loving! So loving that He sent His Son, who never sinned, to carry and die for our sins so the we would not suffer in hell for eternity.
You, and not just you, but a lot of people who find it difficult to believe in God, do so because He will send people to hell. But you are not focusing on the right thing. God is love, mercy, grace and goodness. If you were focusing on God you wouldn't even be thinking about hell. Other than trying to spead His gospel so that everyone else will rejoice in heaven with you and not suffer hell. Too many people assosiate God with hell, and this is not correct thinking. Why do you all focus so much on the fact that people will go to hell rather than focusing on the grace God provides to keep you out of there? And letting others know Truth as well so that they will stay out of hell?



Please don't say, "God does not/cannot"... Please! You claim god to be omnipotent. That means all-powerful, all knowing, and able to do anything (within logical reason). And we are to believe He can't spare his own children the hidious fate of hell? I don't buy it.

Any Christian who knows anything about God should know that God CAN do anything and everything. But God only does what it is in His will to do.

With each response from you, I have new questions. We could go on forever it seems. I hope you don't mind one more...



So loving that He sent His Son, who never sinned, to carry and die for our sins so the we would not suffer in hell for eternity.

Why do you find this loving? Why couldn't He have just forgave us without putting Jesus through all that? He IS God, isn't He? Are you saying there was no other way we could've been forgiven for our sins? If you had any other way, would you ever allow your child to be tortured like that? I'm sure this little nugget of illogic doesn't bother you, but it sure bothers me. It makes no sense. Also, according to you, Many of us are STILL not saved and will wind up burning in hell for eternity anyway.



You, and not just you, but a lot of people who find it difficult to believe in God, do so because He will send people to hell.

That's but one, of many reasons yes. But there are tons more why I find it difficult to believe in God.


But you are not focusing on the right thing. God is love, mercy, grace and goodness.

Well He didn't seem so loving, merciful, gracious, or good, when he wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family. Or when he slew every first born in the land of Egypt. Or when He commands that those who don't observe the Sabbath day be killed, or when He says to stone your fiancé to death if she's not a virgin, or... Need I go on?



Too many people assosiate God with hell, and this is not correct thinking. Why do you all focus so much on the fact that people will go to hell rather than focusing on the grace God provides to keep you out of there? And letting others know Truth as well so that they will stay out of hell?

I'll be glad to drop hell from my list of seemingly never-ending questions about what doesn't make sense in the bible and move on. Perhaps you can explain the story of Noah's ark to me?

Lobrobseter,
I am going to attempt to try to get you to understand why I believe God sends people to hell (other than because they are not saved), and why I do not believe this makes Him a cruel God.

First of all I have the feeling that you think people are deserving of heaven. If I am wrong then please correct me, but I believe this may be the reason why you can only focus on the fact that God will send people to hell. The reason why you can't see that God is nothing but good. That He is just in His decision for our eternity.

None of us, not one, deserves God's grace, mercy, salvation and heaven.

We on our own accord are not deserving of heaven/salvation/grace. God makes us deserving by washing us in the blood of the Lamb when we accept Jesus as our savior. Sin cannot enter heaven, therefore we must be washed in the blood of the Lamb (saved). This is why just being good will not get you into heaven.

Here's the thing lobrobster. This world must end. God is not going to continue to allow all the bad in this world to go on forever. The reason being is because God did not intend for the world to be sinful in the first place. It will go back to the way He intended it from the get go, which is perfect (heaven). With that said, think about this. Since our souls live for eternity they must live somewhere. If God will not allow them to continue in this sinful world, then what will He do with them? If those who are still sinful (unsaved) do not and cannot enter heaven, where then should they go? One day the sin in this world will stop. Sin will stop period. Even for those who are in hell, even they do not get to continue in their sin. They will spend their eternal lives being punished for their wrong doings. So... even if their punishment is not hell, they still must spend an eternity being punished. What punishment do you honestly think someone could spend an eternity receiving that would not be excruciating (even if not painful), terrifying, sorrowful, etc.
Why then, you may ask, doesn't He just eliminate those who will receive punishment altogether instead of sending them to an eternity of punishment? Because our souls are eternal. Why should He destroy you? Why should you get out of your punishment.
Surely you will agree lobrobster, that when people do wrong they should receive punishment for it. Why then do you have a problem with God dishing out punishment for our disobedience?

Lobrobseter,
I am going to attempt to try to get you to understand why I believe God sends people to hell (other than because they are not saved), and why I do not believe this makes Him a cruel God.

In my opinion, God doesn't send anyone to hell. God gives you free will. With your free will you can select God and heaven or reject God and select hell. Whoever has gone to hell, is there of their own free will.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1037 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1037.htm)

Sincerely,

De Maria

Moonlitwaves-

I think you've explained God and heaven adequately and to my satisfaction. If I understand you correctly, you are saying:

God and heaven are perfection. They are absolute. Heaven is not so much a place as it is a state of perfection. Of all that is good and the complete absence of evil and all that is bad.

Since none of us are perfect (or can ever hope to be), it is impossible to be worthy of God's grace and His presence in heaven. In this way, heaven cannot be earned. We are never fully deserving of God or heaven. However...

God so loves us He is willing to provide us with a way to join Him in the glory of heaven. This is why He sent Jesus His only Son down to die for us. In this way, if we accept Jesus as our Savior, we might hope to be cleansed of our sins enough to enter heaven.

I might have a few things wrong here and there, but is this about right?

You've explained this all very well and I greatly appreciate it. It's even starting to make some logical sense to me when put in this way. Although I still don't get why Jesus had to be so brutally tortured. I'm also unclear on why God can't just forgive us. Or why there is an earthly time limit for our souls to be cleansed. Why can't those of us who don't believe all this stuff take care of it in the eternal afterlife? Exactly what is it about my soul that changes after accepting Jesus? What you're saying is that even if I sin less than you do, you're soul is cleansed with your acceptance of Jesus. Why is that? If I see Jesus after death I would accept Him as well. Now we both accepted Him, but I have sinned less than you (hypothetical... I'm not saying I really sin less than you). Why are you saved, but I am not?

In my opinion, God doesn't send anyone to hell. God gives you free will. With your free will you can select God and heaven or reject God and select hell. Whoever has gone to hell, is there of their own free will.

Except if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in Pakistan.

This is why I say you're intolerant De Maria. Can you really not see that if you had been born in an Islamic fundamentalist part of the world that YOU yourself would be a Muslim worshipping Allah right now? Or are you so conceited to think that you would have somehow saw the light, where millions have not? Been brave enough to commit apostasy against the Koran (punishable by death), where millions have not? And been praising Jesus instead of Allah, when millions do not?

Yes... De Maria super Christian! Would've somehow saw the light of Christianity, avoided being beheaded, and saved his soul, where MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Muslims have utterly failed. They must all be so much dumber than you, huh? Please...

With each response from you, I have new questions. We could go on forever it seems. I hope you don't mind one more...

I'm sorry, but I am trying to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. Knowing God is never ending therefore we could talk about this until we die. Don't worry if you have new questions, I have questions all the time too. I don't mind answering your questions, do not feel as though you are getting on my nerves because you are not. I will answr what I can for.



Why do you find this loving? Why couldn't He have just forgave us without putting Jesus through all that? He IS God, isn't He? Are you saying there was no other way we could've been forgiven for our sins? If you had any other way, would you ever allow your child to be tortured like that?

First of all I believe that Jesus was willing. Secondly, blood is necessary in cleansing us of our sins. Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Jesus was sent as a final sacrifice. Once He fulfilled the prophecy we no longer have to sacrifice blood in order to receive forgivness for our sins.
Why must Jesus' blood be shed in order to receive salvation? When we receive salvation we receive life. Blood represents life. Leviticus 17:11 " For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Therefore the shedding of Jesus' blood, shed life. His blood must have been shed in order that we may have life (salvation).


I'm sure this little nugget of illogic doesn't bother you, but it sure bothers me. It makes no sense.

The reason I gave you above is logical to me. It makes perfect sense, and I am glad God loves us so much that He did this for us so that we may have life.


Also, according to you, Many of us are STILL not saved and will wind up burning in hell for eternity anyways.

Jesus did die so that we all could receive salvation, but you must believe in God whole heartedly and you must accept this offer to go to heaven.


That's but one, of many reasons yes. But there are tons more why I find it difficult to believe in God.

If you want to, we can talk about these things. I enjoy it and will discuss this with you so long as you want to. We may have to revert to private message as this is becoming discussion and asking questions that are not related to the original question asked.


Well He didn't seem so loving, merciful, gracious, or good, when he wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family. Or when he slew every first born in the land of Egypt. Or when He commands that those who don't observe the Sabbath day be killed, or when He says to stone your fiance to death if she's not a virgin, or... Need I go on?

Some of these things, in our human mind, find it hard to understand. I do not understand His reason's for everything He does. But because of my faith in God, because I believe He is good and just, I do not believe that these instances make Him cruel, unmerciful, not gracious, and bad.
Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Because I know this, I know that what I may think of His actions, like the ones you mentioned, are not necessarily truth. For example if I was to think this is cruel of Him. This is my human thoughts and because His thoughts are higher than mine I may not be getting the true understanding of why He did what He did, because I am not thinking like He is. Do you see what I mean? Also, because it is my belief that God is good, I believe that everything He does is for the good, will make for a better outcome, is what was meant to be, etc. It is because I have faith that God is good and just that I trust His decisions are the right ones.




I'll be glad to drop hell from my list of seemingly never-ending questions about what doesn't make sense in the bible and move on.

Do that only if you want to, but don't do it because you think I don't want to answer or wish for you to stop asking. I want you to ask whatever you will. As I said before I will answer you what I can. And when I can't I will seek the answer for you, if it be through studying and asking God to give me the answer for you, or if I have to ask someone myself.


Perhaps you can explain the story of Noah's ark to me?

What is it you would like to know? If it is why God flooded the earth and killed all of those people I have answered the best I can above.

lobrobster
Have you ever tried to forgive someone who refused to accept what you were offering?
God does not will that ANY should suffer the punishment, but many REFUSE to OPEN the GIFT He offers in Jesus. Can you imagine giving your child the most awesome gift that you spent much time planning and wrapping and then they just look at the paper and walk away?

Jesus was tortured so much so that we don't have to be. He loves us so incredibly that He was willing to give up His only Son for us. I have kids I will never give up that way. I'm too selfish. God is not. Jesus willingly laid His life down, He said so.
John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10:14-16 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:17
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
John 10:16-18 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
John 15:12-14 (in Context) John 15 (Whole Chapter)


Jesus went willingly to His death, so that He could be raised again by the Father.

lobrobster, there will always be arguments against believing in God as long as Satan is loose.

There are many things of God that I don't yet understand and that cause me to question. I ask God when I have questions and in time (His timing) He reveals the answers. Many things I may not know until I stand before Him. Still I seek Him.

Except if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in Pakistan.

This is why I say you're intolerant De Maria.

I guess on this forum you are permitted to call me whatever you want. God forbid I tell you what I think of you however. I'll have the nonChristian thought police all over me.

Nevertheless, I will. I don't think you have any earthly idea what you are talking about.


Can you really not see that if you had been born in an Islamic fundamentalist part of the world that YOU yourself would be a Muslim worshipping Allah right now? Or are you so conceited to think that you would have somehow saw the light, where millions have not? Been brave enough to commit apostasy against the Koran (punishable by death), where millions have not? And been praising Jesus instead of Allah, when millions do not?

Yes... De Maria super Christian!

Praise God! That is precisely what I'm shooting for.


Would've somehow saw the light of Christianity, avoided being beheaded, and saved his soul, where MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Muslims have utterly failed. They must all be so much dumber than you, huh? Please...

Well, you don't know what you are talking about. I happen to believe that many people who are not Christian will be in heaven before Christians. That is Catholic doctrine.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#812)

So, although yiou may think I'm intolerant, you have no grounds to do so. However, you have just proven your own ignorance about what the majority of Christians believe.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You are correct and I apologize. I didn't realize this is what most Christians believe. To be honest, I'm still not so sure, but I'll take your word for it until I find out otherwise.

So yes, or no... Are saying that most practicing Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. will find their way to God in heaven? Or let me rephrase it. Are you saying that it's possible even for someone who is ignorant about Jesus Christ and worships Allah instead can be saved?

If this is what you're saying, I'll have to change my opinion of you at least somewhat. Christians believing they have an inside track to heaven and into God's grace, while everyone else is doomed to eternal hell because oops!. They missed out on Jesus, is a HUGE problem for me.

The Catholic religion must be softening. I'm sure when I was a kid, the answer was that people born in African villages who never heard of Jesus would unfortunately be sent to hell. I'm sure, because I remember asking my teacher Sister Alice about it and I'll never forget her answer or the look of pity on her face! Not sure how old you are, but I'm in my 40's. Back in my day, Catholicism was much stricter, gloomier, and more guilt ridden than it is now.

Moonlitwaves-

I think you've explained God and heaven adequately and to my satisfaction. If I understand you correctly, you are saying:

God and heaven are perfection. They are absolute. Heaven is not so much a place as it is a state of perfection. Of all that is good and the complete absence of evil and all that is bad.

Since none of us are perfect (or can ever hope to be), it is impossible to be worthy of God's grace and His presence in heaven. In this way, heaven cannot be earned. We are never fully deserving of God or heaven. However...

God so loves us He is willing to provide us with a way to join Him in the glory of heaven. This is why He sent Jesus His only Son down to die for us. In this way, if we accept Jesus as our Savior, we might hope to be cleansed of our sins enough to enter heaven.

I might have a few things wrong here and there, but is this about right?

You've explained this all very well and I greatly appreciate it. It's even starting to make some logical sense to me when put in this way. Although I still don't get why Jesus had to be so brutally tortured.

Yes my dear, you have it right!! I am so glad it is starting to make sense to you!



I'm also unclear on why God can't just forgive us.

I answered this in my above post when I talked about blood representing life.


Or why there is an earthly time limit for our souls to be cleansed.
Because this world is going to end when God so chooses. He is not going to let the world continue in sin when this was not His intentions for the world in the beginning. But because it is sinful, He has provided us a way to live for eternity in the new earth (Heaven). Also to go along with that is that the limit is when you die. I will go into further deatail about that below...


Why can't those of us who don't believe all this stuff take care of it in the eternal afterlife?
Because God wants you to choose to believe in Him. If He allowed you to wait until you see Him, until you know without a doubt that He is True then you no longer have a choice. You will believe because the proof is right in front of you. Actually it will no longer be about believing it will be absolute fact. This is not choosing Him.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." See, He rewards those who have faith. The ultimate reward of having faith that He is real and that He sent His Son to die is eternity in Heaven.
Why doesn't He just show everyone He is Truth, why must we have faith? Because, think about it. If we know without a doubt that He is Truth then we have no choice but to believe. Then we are essentially "robots". Forced to believe in Him because there is no other choice. If we have no choice but believe in Him then can we truly know what we have? You can't know what good is unless you know bad. This is why the tree of knowledge was put in the garden. It gave Adam and Eve the choice to trust in God's goodness and to choose to obey Him rather than be forced to because there is no other option.


Exactly what is it about my soul that changes after accepting Jesus?
Your soul will then spend eternity in bliss in heaven with your loving, merciful and graceful creator instead of punishment for your sins. This is the change, your soul is now delighful to God, pleases God. Your soul is eternal either way, salvation just changes the place in which your eternal soul will spend that eternity.


What you're saying is that even if I sin less than you do, you're soul is cleansed with your acceptance of Jesus. Why is that? If I see Jesus after death I would accept Him as well. Now we both accepted Him, but I have sinned less than you (hypothetical... I'm not saying I really sin less than you).
It is not about how much or how little you sin. It is because you sin period that you need cleansing. I answered above about seeing Jesus after death and believing.


Why are you saved, but I am not?
Because I had what God wanted me to have... faith. I believed that God sent His Son to save my soul therefore I received salvation. You must have faith. You must believe wholeheartedly in God and that Jesus died for you in order to be saved. And you must do this before you die. Otherwise it is not about faith anymore.

lobrobster,
God allows all to know Him. He does not hide. Those who ignore Him will face the consequences.

Psalm 97:5-7 (New Living Translation)
New Living Translation (NLT)
5 The mountains melt like wax before the Lord,
Before the Lord of all the earth.
6 The heavens proclaim his righteousness;
Every nation sees his glory.
7 Those who worship idols are disgraced—
All who brag about their worthless gods—
For every god must bow to him.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
John 20:30-31 (in Context) John 20 (Whole Chapter)

Philippians 2:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You are correct and I apologize

Apology accepted.


. I didn't realize this is what most Christians believe. To be honest, I'm still not so sure,

Major Traditional branches 1995
Branch Number of Adherents
Catholic 968,000,000
Protestant 395,867,000
Other Christians 275,583,000
Orthodox 217,948,000
Anglicans 70,530,000
Major Branches of Religions (http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christianity)


but I'll take your word for it until I find out otherwise.

You don't have to take my word for it.
The Catholic Church is the largest Christian church, representing over half of all Christians, and is the largest organized body of any world religion.[3]
Roman Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic)


So yes, or no... Are saying that most practicing Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. will find their way to God in heaven? Or let me rephrase it. Are you saying that it's possible even for someone who is ignorant about Jesus Christ and worships Allah instead can be saved?

The doctrine I provided is self explanatory. Please read it. There is another doctrine which I adhere to, "Judge not lest ye be judged". I don't venture into God's business. He is my judge, my conscience is clear but I await His judgement. I judge no one, not even myself.


If this is what you're saying, I'll have to change my opinion of you at least somewhat. Christians believing they have an inside track to heaven and into God's grace, while everyone else is doomed to eternal hell because oops!. They missed out on Jesus, is a HUGE problem for me.

I thought you said you were born Catholic. Didn't you ever study the Catholic doctrines.


The Catholic religion must be softening. I'm sure when I was a kid, the answer was that people born in African villages who never heard of Jesus would unfortunately be sent to hell.

I became atheist at around 13. But I can honestly tell you that I never heard that from a Catholic when I was growing up. Although I heard it plenty from Fundamentalist Protestants. When I came back to the Church, I heard it more from Catholics and it may be due to a shismatic priest named Feeney who was excommunicated for preaching that only Catholics would go to heaven:

Feeneyism is a strict interpretation of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus associated with the Reverend Leonard Feeney, M.I.C.M. (1897-1978). Feeney had originally been a Roman Catholic priest and a member of the Jesuit order. On account of disobedience, the Jesuit order dismissed Feeney in 1949, and on 4 February 1953 the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) declared him excommunicated "on account of grave disobedience to Church Authority, being unmoved by repeated warnings".
Feeneyism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism)


I'm sure, because I remember asking my teacher Sister Alice about it and I'll never forget her answer or the look of pity on her face! Not sure how old you are, but I'm in my 40's. Back in my day, Catholicism was much stricter, gloomier, and more guilt ridden than it is now.

I'm 50. And Christianity as a whole was gloomy. It is one of the major reasons I became atheist. Christians did not seem to know anything except "thou shalt not".
Me, I wanted to do my thing and God was in the way. So I decided He didn't exist.

I don't want to leave this message on a down beat about Christianity. After I made an effort of will to become Christian and specifically Catholic, I discovered the peace that only Jesus can give and what many people don't talk about, the joy that only Jesus can give.

Why don't people talk about it? I suppose because it is beyond words.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You guys are awesome. :)
Just felt like saying that.

chaplain john agrees: Excellent answer I wish I'd said that Can I plagiarize a little bit from it?

Be my guest.

Oh and thanks.

Sincerely,

De Maria

No, but perhaps another person's book says it's ok. Now if you're saying it's ok to believe things on unfounded evidence, how then do you deny someone of another faith this same right? You can't very well label him as irrational when your standards for belief are no different than his.

Btw- Are you really a chaplain who knows something about this (on a professional level)? If so, I think it's great that you post here. I don't know anyone very knowledgable that I can ask questions to.

When you talk about our perception not lining up with the teachings in the bible... What about biblical passages which if taken literally, would lead to what we now would consider immoral acts? Such as:

Isn't there a passage which states that if a man finds on his wedding night that the woman he is about to marry is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father's doorstep?

Doesn't the bible imply that if a kid disobeys his parents, it's ok to kill him?

Or that if you catch somebody working on the Sabbath day, they should be put to death?

What about the condoning of slavery in the bible? The abuse of women? Etc...

I realize reasonable people don't take these things seriously, but all these things are in the bible, are they not? So what if my perception was to take this literally and I went out and killed someone for working on the Sabbath? Would you conisder me wrong to have done so?

I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but these questions all seem off topic to me.

I have a suggestion. If you're really interested, I'm sure the Christians on this board would be willing to help Chaplain John answer them if you post them on separate topics. One at a time. That way we can discuss them thoroughly.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Our Time Is Very Precious We Only Have So Much And We Do Not Know How Much But The More Of Your Time You Give To God In Prayer And Seeking Him The More He Will Bless You.

What I've found helps is walks I like in a sort of remote area and I take walks and save time on the weekends and I walk in the back roads were not mutch cars go and it helps and just listen to the breeze and the birds

[QUOTE=lobrobster

There's this rabbi who devoted his whole life to pleasing God, and he did many wonderful things to help people in need throughout his life. Now if I ask do Christians believe that this man will burn in hell for eternity because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior? Go ahead and cite scripture if you must.

But if I ask how you as a Christian can accept such a hidious belief, I'm not looking for scripture! I want to know how you reconcile this fact and live with it. That's a question that requires your honest human response. Does that make any sense?[/QUOTE]

Bingo! That is the question I want answered. And without scripture.

But how?!! He's a Jewish rabbi for cryin' out loud! Rabbis do not, cannot, believe that Jesus was the Son of God.



How can you find it anything but morally obscene that a good, gentle, pious man who had devoted his entire life to God, is sentenced (by the very same God he worshipped) to eternal torture and punishment on a technicality?! This is what I mean. Scripture doesn't cut it here. You are accepting a complete abomination of morality and justice. How are you justifying calling this a loving god, when no human being with an ounce of compassion would treat their worst enemy this way?



Let me ask you a serious question... Do you honestly think that if you had been born in Iraq to Muslim parents that you wouldn't be worshipping Allah and the koran right now? I think if you had been born in Israel, you'd be Jewish right now. Had you been born in India, you'd be Hindu, or a Buddhist. Had you been born someplace in Africa, you'd be worshing the ju-ju on the mountain. It is only by the sheerest of accidents you happen to be Christian. And THIS is what has you convinced you're religion is right?

Or is it that you think Christians are smarter than Muslims? Or Jews? Or Hindus who are just as convinced they are right about their beliefs?

The point I'm making is, that rabbi is every bit as convinced he's right about god as you are! And you have no edge over a practicing rabbi. He's just as likely to be right about god as you are, and undoubtedly more so.

Certainly if there's a loving God He understands this. He understands that a Jew cannot believe what a Christian does. So you've got a HUGE problem if you believe he did everything else right, but will still burn in hell for eternity because he got one technicality about Jesus wrong. Like I said, it's a hidious concept. What if YOU'RE wrong and it is Allah you should be worshipping?

WOW! It's like you took the words right out of my mouth. This is what I have been asking fundamental christians for years. I don't believe a loving God would punish for eternity his people just because they were brought up to believe a certain way. Why is it that Christians are so unyielding in others beliefs? They seem to get angry.

Bingo!. That is the question I want answered. And without scripture.

I'll answer a question with a question... Why do you think we go around trying so hard to convert others to our belief?

It is what we are commanded to do by our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ!!!

I try to keep a prayer in my mind all through the day. When I think about my family, I pray for them, when I think about someone who is sick, I pray for them. I think we are always thinking about someone or blessings we receive, or see someone in need. When I do I say a prayer for them or say prayers thanking God for all blessings we receive.
The Bible says to pray without ceasing.
It was hard to do this at first, but the more you pray the easier it gets to find the time, and it's easy now to block out the outside noises that use to bother me. When I'm talking to God I don't really notice the noise around me anymore, that's God's time. I really enjoy it.

I'll answer a question with a question... Why do you think we go around trying so hard to convert others to our belief?

It is what we are commanded to do by our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ!!!

You don't answer a question with a question. Answer the question that was put before you in a truthful heart felt manner please.

You don't answer a question with a question. Answer the question that was put before you in a truthful heart felt manner please.

OK from my heart

It is not my wish nor is it the wish of the God that I serve that any should perish (suffer damnation) that is why he sent his Son to take their place (be the one perfect sacrifice) so that they can (if they will only choose to do so) receive the free gift of salvation. That is why I spend a great deal of time working to bring the Gospel to everyone who will allow me to do so.

I try not to pressure anyone, if I am told that someone doesn't want to hear what I have to say I generally change the subject with an apology. It is their God given right to accept or reject the message that I bring and if they reject it they will have to pay the price. God does not condemn them... They condemn them self by their rejection.

It breaks my heart to think that anyone should step out into eternity without accepting the Salvation that is offered through Christ but I cannot make the decision for them and neither can God for that would be taking away the free will that he gave them in the first place.

Your refusal to accept my first answer leads me to believe that you are a contentious sort of person who apparently thinks he has heard it all, has already made up his (if you are female I apologize for the male pronoun) mind and does not intend to change it no matter what is said. So I will say good-bye... I don't intend to respond further but I shall pray that God will reveal his truth to you.

Blessings!

OK from my heart




Your refusal to accept my first answer leads me to believe that you are a contentious sort of person who apparently thinks he has heard it all, has already made up his (if you are female I apologize for the male pronoun) mind and does not intend to change it no matter what is said. So I will say good-bye... I don't intend to respond further but I shall pray that God will reveal his truth to you.

Blessings!

No, I am not contentious. In fact, I avoid confrontations anytime I can.

I was raised as a christian and I know the "entrance exam" for getting into heaven. But... what about people who were NOT raised as christians? I can not believe that my God would condemn them to an eternity in hell, just because they were not born and raised in a christian home.

That issue STILL has not been addressed. I haven't "heard it all "as you say, because I still haven't heard a reply about the millions of souls that are good, God loving people that were born under different circumstances than you. Are you telling me that those people will burn in hell ?

What about people who never even heard about a bible? Is ignorance an excuse for a pardon? My problem with christianity is that it is so exclusive. My way, or the highway.

:) G'Day ; This is an interesting subject which takes a little getting over, how "good people" can be damned.
In the first place if salvation was of works, i.e.. How good or bad we are, in the sight and compared to God, none would be saved, even good people have their dark side, a person would have to be perfect from the moment of their birth, not possible, only Jesus could be perfect, because He inherited nothing from Adam, He is of the seed of the woman and God, not Adam.
Secondly, the Jews were told, from the time of Moses of the coming of Emanuel, how when, where and by whom, and when all was fulfilled in Jesus they rejected Him and still do, you say they worship God, but when God put on flesh and came to pay the price for their sins they rejected the very God who you say, and they say, they worship.
Thirdly, salvation is not of races or denominations or religions, the bible and the Christian churches testify of the RISEN CHRIST, the Jews and the Muslims testify of the very existence of God, that no man of any faith can ever say "I never knew" all have heard, but salvation is of God alone, it is Him, of His own council, who saves from every nation and kingdom and tongue, His own children raised up in every generation, in every peoples, from righteous Abel to the last, not of works but of GRACE.

Many Blessings Miykle :)

[QUOTE=cozyk
What about people who never even heard about a bible? Is ignorance an excuse for a pardon? My problem with christianity is that it is so exclusive. My way, or the highway.[/QUOTE]

It is impossible to answer a question about Christianity without using scripture. (and this is off the original question) So here is your answer. Whether you take it or leave it is completely up to you.

Rom 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(KJV)

Blessed are you Galveston 1 that the Lord God has opened your understanding to the truth of this, our God is a LIVING GOD, who calls His children out of every nation, no matter their beliefs or religion, salvation is of God alone for Jesus Christ's sake, to raise up a family for Himself, to love and to be loved, through many trials and tribulations, forging the links which bind a family together, in preparation for the world to come, we cannot earn it by our works or which religion we belong to but as we were elect in Jesus Christ before the world begun.
SAVED Freely by Grace ; Meritoriously by the blood ; instrumentally by faith ;evidently by works ; not of ourselves but a gift of God.
Blessings Miykle