Okay I am a Wiccan and I am proud, when someone asks me a question about Wicca, I calmly explain an answer (unless they are one of those people who ask me and then tell me, no matter what the answer I give, that I'm going to hell, which is pointless cause Wiccan's don't believe in hell, well most of us don't anyways). But one day I was having a decent and calm talk of religion with one of my best friends and I asked a question that bugged me all the time when I was Morman, that applies to all religion with a bible. How do you know... that what is in that bible is really true? I mean the Christian bible has been rewritten and translated so many times that how do you know what it says is true and that someone who messed with it did not change something cause they didn't like what God said? Same with the Morman bible, the man who wrote it was the "only" on to see what God said and wrote it in a book. So basically, how do you know what you're reading is what it was supposed to be and was truly left unchanged from gods word?

Well my friend got all definsive and told me that it just didn't happen. I said but how do you know? These books were rewritten and translated by "the sinful hands of man" and did God not have a follower who betrayed him? How do you know for sure what your reading is true. Again she just got all mad and yelled at me and said that it JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN! Another girl in my class heard the conversation and got all mad at me too. I didn't diss the religion and I didn't say anything mean, I just asked a simple question that had bugged me even before I became Wicca.

Why can't someone just say. "I don't know... I just need to believe it's true" or something like that or just say plainly "I don't know" or "I never thought about it", that's what I say when I don't have an answer. So why the do people always insist on yelling?:confused:

Because people are often times brainwashed by there faith and don't have the ability to look at religon and make there own decisions.
Pluss the Bible is kind of a big deal, you know? Questioning the Bible is kind of like questioning ones religon... basically people don't like to be told that they're wrong so they always assume that they're right and support it.
It's one of those psychological things where people want to always be right even if they're wrong.
Got to love religious politics. :-)

I would be careful when saying people are brainwashed. Most people that become upset when questioned about their faith probably, because they feel attacked. The bible is the Word of God. It was brought to life through HIS son Jesus. It is a matter of faith. Just as one could ask you why there is no Hell? How do you know? You just believe. I do not get angry with someone's true belief of their faith. I do have concern when people don't know what they believe. I accept your right to believe in what ever you want to believe, as long as it does not hurt yourself or anyone else. I don't have to agree with your belief, but I do have to love you just the same... WHY? Because I believe in the Word of God, and it says to Love God and Love People... Thank you for your question.

Thanks for the answers so far ,and tchalien I don't mean to attack anyone, my friend was asking me questions and so I asked mine. Does it really seem like an attack? I wondered that question of myself when I was Morman. It might be cause I never felt connected to the religion but I've always just wondered. I'm glad you guys are more understanding then most people here in Kansas. Everyone yells and can never just talk.

Sometimes the defensiveness may come from being attacked verbally for believing.
Maybe not from you,but there are some who do it from both among believers and non-believers.

*sigh* why can't everyone get along?

If we all got along, we wouldn't need the Bible or even the Book of Mormon.

No we would still need it cause we would need our beliefs. I had no religion at all when I went inactive from Mormon... and it got to where I couldn't do it and discovered Wicca, which I really enjoy. I just wish others could be more accepting of other religions. Take people asking questions as an opportunity to explain their beliefs and religion not as a chance to fight for their religion when there is no need to.

I have no religion at all and I get by life with ease. I'm friends with people from lots of different beliefs - the common thread being that they are nice/good individuals that don't push their beliefs on others.

See! Why can't other people be like that! *is one of those kind of girls that wishes world peace but knows it's not going to happen*

Just when I think religion might be an interesting prospect I pop in to any of the religious threads here and it reminds me of why I shy away. I decided long ago to value individual goodness regardless or religion or skin colour, etc. The people here that condemn others to hell because they don't practice the same religion as they do just make me sad.

Eh imagine if it was being done to you... I got a through lecture from a guy in my U.S. History class about how I was going to hell... very simply I'm like "How do I go somewhere I don't believe in?" by now I've just learned to be a smarass with them, ignore them, or tolerate them. One of the three...

See!! Why can't other people be like that!! *is one of those kind of girls that wishes world peace but knows it's not gonna happen*
Wishing for world peace, but knowing it is not going to happen, is not truly wishing with belief. I PRAY for peace, EXPECTING it to happen, although knowing it will happen if it is GOD'S WILL and not my own, realizing that I may want something that God is already working through and ultimately will be glorified through. Although, Christ does say when he returns, those that believe and trust him will join our Heavenly Father in Heaven, which is peace. Peace can happen, or it will happen when HE returns.

I look at world peace like I do losing my dog. I wish it would happen, I wish my dog would come back but I know she won't. World peace isn't going to happen cause there is too much hate, discrimination, and prejedice out there for there to be world peace. I think and believe that the world is SUPPOSED to be like this. It is supposed to be a terrible place cause through bad experiences and mistakes we learn something. So although it's never going to happen I can still wish that people would just get along. Heck I'd be happy if people could just accept one another as who they are. If just that could happen I would be happy.

There is a lot of hate, discrimination, and prejudice in the world, because of sin. Man's sinful nature takes over, unless we surrender to the one that is perfect, the only ONE to ever walk this earth without sin, JESUS. There is sooooo much power in the just the name of Jesus. It is true there are "bad" things in this world, but God is bigger than all of that. Turn you eyes to Jesus, the author and perfector of our Faith. That is the way.

Well sorry to say but I turn my eyes to the divine Goddess, the Mother of many names. What I was saying is that who ever the big person upstairs is, your God, or my Goddess, or anyone else's higher figure, wants the world to be this way. A person kills someone and in prison they find God. I think the world is supposed to be full of sin as a way for us to learn either that or we can go by what deists in the 1800s said, God was a clock maker he made a perfect machine then let it run its course. No amont of beliving or hope will change this world, but it doesn't hurt to wish. That was my point.

the reason it feels like an attack is because we live in a spiritual world and it is a spiritual attack. Maybe not from you or the other person, but there are spiritual entities at work in this world. You may not believe in the Bible but it addresses this question.
Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Thanks for the answers so far ,and tchalien I don't mean to attack anyone, my friend was asking me questions and so I asked mine. Does it really seem like an attack? I wondered that question of myself when I was Morman. It might be cause I never felt connected to the religion but I've always just wondered. I'm glad you guys are more understanding then most people here in Kansas. Everyone yells and can never just talk.

Honestly, people. I think everyone has a right to their own beliefs. Who knows who is really right or wrong??

I just listen to the advice my Dad gave me when I was little girl and questioned my Catholic religion for the first time...

He told me to just love God (whomever you decide that God is to you) and love your neighbor as yourself. You know, like the "Golden Rule."

I think no matter who or what you believe in, people who follow this rule have absolutely nothing to worry about in whatever comes next after life. Don't judge what religions or beliefs other people have, just know that if they follow this "golden rule," it's ALL GOOD!

Simplistic, yes. But it works, for me anyway!

the reason it feels like an attack is because we live in a spiritual world and it is a spiritual attack. Maybe not from you or the other person, but there are spiritual entities at work in this world. You may not believe in the Bible but it addresses this question.
Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
It isn't an attack at all. You should allow people the freedom to their beliefs just as you are allowed yours. There is nothing in this thread that attacks anyone personally, people are stating their opinions.

I was responding to the OP which asked why her friend got all defensive and other got mad as well. Please be considerate of opinions which differ from you.
It isn't an attack at all. You should allow people the freedom to their beliefs just as you are allowed yours. There is nothing in this thread that attacks anyone personally, people are stating their opinions.

Be proud of your religion and who you are! I have a good friend who is Wiccan and I think it is a pretty cool religion. Does your school or community have an organization for Wiccans? My friend is going to college and they have one there. It's too bad people won't let you believe your way. This country was founded on freedom of religion. And I agree about the Bible. I think any religion which helps people live good lives is great. I agree with some parts of the Bible, but not all. Just like about any other religion. Personally, I think if you want to attract people to your religion, you should do so by being kind and compassionate to all, not by harassing them and yelling at them. I would like to learn more about Wicca, if you have any information on it. I am posting this to learn about Wiccan, not Christianity (no offense) as I am extremely familiar with it already. I would ask that people please only reply to me if they have info about Wicca. Blessed be!

Ya we have a group that's hosted by a store called Renassance shoppe but you need parental permission and my mom won't let me for some reason -_-'... me and my friend thought of a coven but we couldn't find any more people our age who were wiccan. How long have you been into Wicca? Have you celebrated any of the holidays yet? Samhain is coming up ^.~ and the full moon is this Friday if you want to try for an Esbat

The Bible was never rewriten. And if anyone attempted to rewrite then it is no longer The Bible. You can get the bible in its original text and language and so you can see the actual greek text in which it was written. So the translations are pretty acurate. You can say you don't believe in Hell all you want but that will not change the reality. I can say I don't believe in gravity and jump off a cliff and the reallity will still hit. The Bible is the word of God and it is whole and it is truth.

I can say i dont believe in gravity and jump off a cliff and the reallity will still hit. Sure that's a great example, you get to see the result of your experiment immediately. If I say I don't believe in the bible then nothing, absolutely nothing, happens to me.

Not yet anyway. the LORD is slow to anger and quick to forgive. That is why He gives ample time for us to turn our hearts to Him. But, we will stand before Him on the day of judgment.
Sure that's a great example, you get to see the result of your experiment immediately. If I say I don't believe in the bible then nothing, absolutely nothing, happens to me.

beatlejuice (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/beatlejuice.html) disagrees: if you read carefully you will see that I was talking about not believing in HELL not the bible. You have to die first for the reality of hell to hit whether you believe it or not.
Oh... then my answer is the same then: if one does not believe in hell then absolutely nothing will happen to them.

"Not yet anyway. the LORD is slow to anger and quick to forgive. That is why He gives ample time for us to turn our hearts to Him. But, we will stand before Him on the day of judgment"

You know you're making it sound like your religion is completely true and there is no way that any other could be true... we will never know whose religion is true till the day we die.

Oh...then my answer is the same then: if one does not believe in hell then absolutely nothing will happen to them.


That is what you think till you kick the bucket and you find yourself in a very interesting place. And you will remember this discussion.

Ok then. :)

Yes. I don't claim religion. I claim a relationship with the God of the Bible. I believe the Bible is His Living Word and that it is true.
"Not yet anyway. the LORD is slow to anger and quick to forgive. That is why He gives ample time for us to turn our hearts to Him. But, we will stand before Him on the day of judgment"

You know you're making it sound like your religion is completely true and there is no way that any other could be true... we will never know whose religion is true till the day we die.

Christianity is truth... to us
Atheism is truth... to karma (or is it the great spaghetti monster? ;))
Wicca is truth... to you
You know what I mean?
Religious tolerance is important.
You can't say flat statements of "this is the truth", because, that's saying "i know more about what really is the truth than you do" which is a very arrogant thing to say to another person.
There's what you believe, and yes, there is the truth, but we have no way of really knowing the truth, till we die or whatever, and guess what? That's what faith is for.
Biwiccan, I'm curious, (forgive me my ignorance) what is wicca? I never really heard of it.

That's much better ^.^ saying "I believe" I mean... it makes you sound more like your speaking your beliefs rather then preaching them.

Nicely said Cal. People shouldn't go around damning others to a fiery place for eternity just because they are not like them. In my view religion is a personal thing, kept to one's self.

Yes, you have a personal relationship with god, or whoever, or whatever, or just with... you and the world.
You can share that with others, but not by "preaching to the heathens" but by just... trying to apply the good teachings to yourself, so they can shine through, that is the better way to share your beliefs, by bettering the world by letting your beliefs improve who you are.
Edit-
Tchalen, yes we believe in a truth, but, say I believed in the giant spaghetti monster ;) (hehe)
That does not make it the one big truth
I could be wrong, and even if I believe with all my heart, others are still going to believe different things, and we are not entitled to say that our belief is best.

(https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/tchalien.html)tchalien (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/tchalien.html) disagrees: Christians are called to share the TRUTH with others. If you feel offended, you have to ask yourself why?Are you one of those annoying ones that go door to door and preach to everyone? How would you like it if everyone who thought the had the Truth came to your house and tried to convert you?

It is true that Christians should let the love of Christ shine in their lives, which is attractive to most people. We are also called to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19. We have been given a great gift, eternal life in heaven with God, and we don't want others to miss out on this gift. A lot of people get confused about Christians. We don't want to tell you that you are going to Hell... We want you to go to heaven. There is only one way to heaven, through believe in the one and only son of God, JESUS.

Well Cal Wicca (also known as witch craft) is a nature based religion, a lot of people say it is satan worship (due to the fact that one of the gods worshiped in the religion is Pan and he is a horned god). It is a belief of many gods and who you believe in depends on you (there are those who believe in the egyptian gods and those who believe in the greek or celtic). Above all though there is the Mother Goddess, the mother of all life, she has no specific name as her name veries in your belief (for me it is Demeter). We preform rituals on certain nights (Esbats which are the nights of worshipping the mother and the moon and we have Sabbats which are the holidays), there is no sacrifice, which is another misconception. The way a ritual works is you cast the circle, invite the gods to your rite, and invocate the elements. From there you do as you wish (alot of wiccas will do tarot cards, scrying, and/or meditating in the circle). There are also spells that you can cast (no they are not magic), you find herbs and stones that will do certain things, find candles of certain colors that represent what you want, and write a rhyme, the spell, and you go through with it. It's more of a karma thing that anything else.

Wiccans believe in the rule of three fold (if you do something bad it will come back three times worse to you, if you do something good then it will come back three times as good back to you), and the only written rule is The Wiccan Rede written long ago and known by many wiccas the author of it is unknown. The whole rede is sumed up in 8 words "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will" basically do what you want as long as you don't hurt anyone in your proceedings. It's a very alive religion as there is no rules accept the rede and you make the religion your own. You write your own rituals and believe what you want. Most wiccans don't believe in hell (which is why it's so dumb when people tell us to go to hell). If you got any questions just ask, I can go pretty in depth about the rituals as I just wrote my first ritual for the full moon esbat that I'm performing tonight (the full moon is actually tomorrow but I work till 11:30 and there's a lot of preparation and there's no way I will be able to stay awake that long).

[URL="https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/tchalien.html"]Are you one of those annoying ones that go door to door and preach to everyone? How would you like it if everyone who thought the had the Truth came to your house and tried to convert you?
I live my life in such a way that people know I am a Christian, by looking at my life. I do speak the Truth in love to those that will listen. I welcome those that come to my house trying to "convert" me. I love the opportunity to hear what they have to say, and then I share with them the Truth that comes from GOD.

I live my life in such a way that people know I am a Christian, by looking at my life. That would be fine if that's what you were actually doing but it isn't - you shove it in people's faces.

Here, watch this, it's funny: YouTube - Door to Door Atheist! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wOz5a6yns)

There you go again with "the truth" there is not a certainty that that is "the truth". If you would put a simple "I believe" in front of it it makes a different. State your beliefs as much as you want, I am like you in that I listen and share mine, but when I state my beliefs I do my best to state them as a belief not a fact as there are no facts on gods or where we will go until we die and discover the truth. I also try not to state it like a fact as it does offend some people.

This is an online forum where people ask questions and people answer. BiwiccanAndProud asked why people get offended when questions of religion come up. I shared my thoughts on the question and responded to direct and indirect questions concerning my faith in Jesus Christ. When I say, "Truth", or "fact" I am speaking as a Christian that believes the word of God is perfect and is Truth. I accept that everyone does not feel the same way. I have not ever said "you are going to hell" or anything else "intolerant". If you are offended by my comments, then ask yourself "what did this guy say that is offensive?" Realize I am only sharing my faith and beliefs that I believe are true. If you do not believe them to be true, then you are free to believe anything. I have a belief structure that is based on what Christians believe is TRUTH. If it is not true for you, then you believe something else. Which is your right.

Dude, what everyone believes is TRUTH, not just your doctrine. Realize that and we're on our way.

I never said you offended me I said that it offends some people when their beliefs are put into the format of a fact. I never said either that you told me to go to hell, but if you would go to this thread I started

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/other-religion/how-do-tell-grandma-ive-completely-switched-141822.html

You will find that two people so far have told me I'm going to hell for my beliefs (again odd since I do not believe in it's existence). Fr_Chuck and oakshoney both said I would go to hell for being Wicca and for being bi.

The problem with "what everyone believes is truth" is that this is not a true statement. If I believe 1+1=4, it doesn't make it true. There is an idea called absolute truth. If you believe and idea or concept, then anything other than that is incorrect, or untrue. This is not a bad thing though. We, as a society have to have absolute truths. Murdering someone in cold blood is WRONG. If someone believes it is OK to kill someone in cold blood, does not make it truth. All I am saying is that I believe in truth. I am NOT saying you are bad for not believing. I am NOT saying anyone is going to HELL. I am simply defending that TO ME, there is absolute truth in the WORD OF GOD. If you are of the opinion that everyone can believe what they want and still be right... Then you do not have that absolute belief.

The problem with "what everyone believes is truth" is that this is not a true statement.You are correct, most of the people on this planet agree that what YOU believe is NOT the truth.

Cheers,

NK.

christianity is truth....to us
atheism is truth.......to karma (or is it the great spaghetti monster? ;))
wicca is truth...........to you
ya know what i mean?
religious tolerance is important.
you can't say flat statements of "this is the truth", because, thats saying "i know more about what really is the truth than you do" which is a very arrogant thing to say to another person.
theres what you believe, and yes, there is the truth, but we have no way of really knowing the truth, till we die or whatever, and guess what? thats what faith is for.
biwiccan, im curious, (forgive me my ignorance) what is wicca? i never really heard of it.

Truth is very black and white my friend. No gray areas. One can not just make up their own ideas and call it truth just because they choose to believe it. There is a God out there who created us and care about you and everyone and if you humble yourself and open up your heart to Him, He will show himself to you and he will reveal the absolute pure truth to you. But you have to be willing to receive Him and let him reveal himself to you.

Okay you are hearing me all wrong tchailen I am saying that everyone can believe what they want but NOTHING is fact on beliefs. I simply was pointing out that when you mention "the truth of god" you speak of it like it's a fact I was trying to ask you for the curtosy to put "I believe in" when you talk about your religion when you don't put that it makes you sound arrogant like your religion is the only true one and no one has a say. I was merely correcting your grammar cause you seem like a nice person and I didn't want people to get the wrong impression of you cause again... from other threads I've seen you on you seem like a nice person. Notice when Cal asked about Wicca I stated everything in the format that it is mine and other wiccans beliefs not the absolute word.

Beetlejuice again you state it like a fact "There is a god out there who created us..." that... is... not... fact. That is your belief, that is what you believe, so please state it as such not like it's a fact. Unlike with tchailen I can't tell if you are meaning it to sound that way or if it is unintentional.

You are correct, most of the people on this planet agree that what YOU believe is NOT the truth.

Cheers,

NK.

There are more Christian Believers in the world than there is any other religion or beliefe of origin. And Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world. So if you want to use that argument you are only hurting your point.

Well actually... christianity is not as fast growing as you think there are still a lot of people out there who think what you speak is not the truth as there are a lot of religions. I for one don't think your wrong I think what you believe is another possibility of the truth. Wicca is also a fast growing religion, and you have a whole bunch of countries to comb through before you say that there are more christian believers then here is not.

Well actually... christianity is not as fast growing as you think there are still a lot of people out there who think what you speak is not the truth as there are a lot of religions. I for one don't think your wrong I think what you believe is another possibility of the truth. Wicca is also a fast growing religion, and you have a whole bunch of countries to comb through before you say that there are more christian believers then here is not.

Can I ask you a question BiWiccanAndProud?
What is it about Wicca?
People are drawn to a belief system for a reason.
What drew you to Wicca?

Okay you are hearing me all wrong tchailen I am saying that everyone can believe what they want but NOTHING is fact on beliefs. I simply was pointing out that when you mention "the truth of god" you speak of it like it's a fact I was trying to ask you for the curtosy to put "I believe in" when you talk about your religion when you don't put that it makes you sound arrogant like your religion is the only true one and no one has a say. I was merely correcting your grammar cause you seem like a nice person and I didn't want people to get the wrong impression of you cause again... from other threads I've seen you on you seem like a nice person. Notice when Cal asked about Wicca I stated everything in the format that it is mine and other wiccans beliefs not the absolute word.

Beetlejuice again you state it like a fact "There is a god out there who created us..." that... is... not... fact. That is your belief, that is what you believe, so please state it as such not like it's a fact. Unlike with tchailen I can't tell if you are meaning it to sound that way or if it is unintentional.

I understand where you are coming from however I know it as a fact that God exist, that is because I have had personal encounters with him. He showed himself to me when I called upon him and I was at my lowest point. I was not even a christain but I had hit such a rock bottom I had no where else to turn. People had told me about jesus before and I thought it was just a bunch of reliogious B.S. But in my lowest point I called upon God and said if you are real help me. Jesus himself showed up and saved from the distuction I was headed for. I was adicted to drugs and could not do shake the adiction, I almost died until I called upon the Him. From that day I had that encounter I have never toughed drugs and have zero desire for them. He changed me instantly and I know he exists because of what he did for me. No one can tell me otherwise because they don't know what I have been through and what God brought me out of. I was not a christian but when I cried out in my lowest moment, it was not Buddha, or muhamed or krishna who showed up but it was Johovah Jesus Christ who saved me and that is how I know for a fact he lives and his word is absolute truth, and I walk with Him every day, I talk to him everyday. And no one will ever undertand until they experience it for themselves.

And no one will ever undertand untill they experience it for themselves.Most of us won't because most of us don't hit a 'rock bottom' episode in our lives. We seem to manage very well without a deity watching over us.

Major Religions Ranked by Size (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

More than 1/3 of the worlds population is Christian. Making it the largest religion in the world.
In Asia, Christianity is spreading rapidly in China and South Korea.[5]. In the case of South Korea, Christianity has grown so fast that South Korea is now the second largest exporter of Christian missionaries, after the U.S - I got this right out of a secular statisical website.

You're looking at it the wrong way: 77% of the population on this planet is not christian. Not only that but your fundamentalist take on it is an even lower percentage.

Most of us won't because most of us don't hit a 'rock bottom' episode in our lives. We seem to manage very well without a deity watching over us.

Good for you. But for some of us who don't have power over life's circumstances, we have someone who can has the absolute power to pull us out of some of the horrible things life can through at us.

Good for you. But for some of us who dont have power over life's circumstances, we have someone who can has the absolute power to pull us out of some of the horrible things life can through at us.Actually if you scavenge just this discussion board you'll notice that nearly all of the 'bible-thumper' types have a past of alcohol or drug abuse or a history of neglectful/abusive parenting. If you need something to pull you out of that then that's great, but don't come out yelling that's it's the only truth in the universe to us that manage our lives very well on our own.

You're looking at it the wrong way: 77% of the population on this planet is not christian. Not only that but your fundamentalist take on it is an even lower percentage.


99.9999999999999% of people don't believe in what YOU believe so what's your point? :cool:
So I suppose your right?

It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong. What matters is that I don't go around saying I have the "TRUTH" and you are going to hell.

Are you seriously choosing a religion because it's the most popular? I really don't care what you choose just keep it to yourself and let others have theirs, in peace.

Actually if you scavenge just this discussion board you'll notice that nearly all of the 'bible-thumper' types have a past of alcohol or drug abuse or a history of neglectful/abusive parenting. If you need something to pull you out of that then that's great, but don't come out yelling that's it's the only truth in the universe to us that manage our lives very well on our own.

Like I said good for you buddy.;) I suppose you don't need a doctor if you are not sick. But life is funny, you will one day find yourself in a situation beyond you control. But hey No matter what you say My God is the one and only true God and he only reveals Himself to those who are humble enough to admitt they don't have all the answers to life. Jesus said he came to save the lost. I was lost and now I am found. Praise be to God! For saving me and changing me. I am truly grateful to Him and because of it I will serve him all the days of my life and shout on the roof top that He is Lord and savior! Woohoo! :D

Can I ask you a question BiWiccanAndProud?
What is it about Wicca?
People are drawn to a belief system for a reason.
What drew you to Wicca?

The freedom. That's what drew me to Wicca, the freedom. There are no set rules that you have to follow (such as when you can start dating or when to have sex or what your sexuality should be). You make Wicca into what you want it to be. You write your own spells your own rituals and you make your own decisions. I love nature so that's another thing that drew me to it, the worship of nature, the thing that keeps us living that a lot of people take for granted. It is such a respectful, open, and beautiful belief. The other thing that drew me in was the magic (no I don't mean casting spells or pulling bunies out of hats), when I went on my spiritual journey to find my deity it was... amazing... Even though I have a great love for nature after I became Wicca everything is enlightened so much more for me. It's so hard to explain just what it's like to walk and actually feel the elements around me. It's an amazing religion and I love it and believe in it with all that's in me.

Beatlejuice I don't think I have all the answers to life and when I was in the deepest of despare there was no God there to help me and I saw no one. I have come close to suicide twice you want to know what kept me back? My brothers and sisters, the thought of them not having me there kept me back. I saw no god "he" has never revealed himself to me. Yet you say he shows himself to those who need saving and those who are "humble enough to admit they dont' ahve all the answers".

Edit:
I am not trying to disprove the existence of your god I am just saying, because he reveals himself to you in your darkest hour does not mean he does to all if they follow him.

I'd just like to point out that I, too, am Wiccan.

I've had encounters with both the Lord and Lady in my religion. I've not hit a rock bottom point in my life--it's just that a big part of my religion is the closeness one can feel to the God and Goddess, to the point where you can and do have encounters with them on a regular basis.

I'm not going to hell (I don't believe in hell). I'm certainly not ignorant and need to be taught about Christ--I was raised by Christian parents. Besides... most of the major traditions in Christianity are stolen from pagan religions like Wicca anyway. (The early Christian leaders decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em sort of thing--they incorporated pagan traditions to convert the pagans).

Unfortunately, Christians are taught as one of their fundamental beliefs that there IS no other "true" religion. "I the Lord your God am a jealous God. You shall have no other gods before me" and all that jazz. It makes them intolerant, because they simply can't believe that there is another god out there--THEIR god told them he was the ONLY god, and if you can't trust your god, then who CAN you trust?

Biwiccan, just try not to discuss religion with religious people. It only ends up in headaches and hurt feelings.

It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong. What matters is that I don't go around saying I have the "TRUTH" and you are going to hell.

Are you seriously choosing a religion because it's the most popular? I really don't care what you choose just keep it to yourself and let others have theirs, in peace.


No I am not a Christian because it is the most popular. I told why I am a Christian. It just so happens it is the most prominent but that's not why I believe it. But NeedKarma you sound like a very bitter person. Why are you getting so emotional and derrogative about this discussion? We are all here voicing our opinions and I think you are taking it too personally. I have not seen anyone on this forcing you to believe in Christ. We are just saying what we believe just like you are also voicing yours. Don't ask me to keep my beliefs to myself and yet you are making yours known. Because I could also say you are pushing your beliefs on others too. I can also call you an "athiest thumper" too because you are just as passionate about your beliefes. We are just having a discussion like mature adults, lets keep that way.there is not need to be hypocritycal and name calling.

I've seen you in threads before Synnen I didn't realize you were Wiccan though :). Hey mind if I ask you a few questions about Samhain? Me and my friend are celebrating but her celebrations always turn out rather dull cause she does not write her own rituals she gets them from a book (I've tried to tell her they are not as affective that way but oh well). Would you mind telling me what you do to celebrate? I really would like for this holiday to turn out better then Lunasadah did (doubt I spelled it right >.< I can't ever remember how to spell that name). Also are you into crystal healing?

Edit:

Beatlejuice you too were getting emotional early on in the conversation, you were taking it very personally earlier yourself.

Well... what tradition of Wicca are you?

Book rituals are just fine, you know. They are no more, or no less, effective than personally written rituals. Samhain is really just a REALLY BIG year-end ritual. I know that ours this year involves change (as it should every year) and I believe that one of our priestesses will be raised to 3rd level on Samhain, but I'm not sure on that. We will be facing our triumphs for the last year, and giving thanks for them. We will be looking at ourselves in the present and acknowledging what still needs improvement, and we will be looking towards the future, setting goals for ourselves for the next year.

We will be having Circle indoors, as it's really darn cold where we are, and Samhain tends to be a long ritual. No one needs to get sick from being outside barefoot that long!

In the past, as a solo Witch, I had just faced my altar and gave thanks for the past year, and asked for blessings for the new year. Ritual can be as long or as short as YOU make it. Your friend isn't wrong, you know. It's just as effective to follow a script as it is to make your own up. The Goddess doesn't care, really. What counts is that you connect with Her, and that you are sincere in your belief.

I'm really curious, though, as to what tradition you are following, and what sources you are using. Wicca isn't a nature religion (although nature is revered, it's not worshipped), though many other pagan religions ARE nature based.

Beatlejuice I don't think I have all the answers to life and when I was in the deepest of despare there was no God there to help me and I saw no one. I have come close to suicide twice you want to know what kept me back? My brothers and sisters, the thought of them not having me there kept me back. I saw no god "he" has never revealed himself to me. Yet you say he shows himself to those who need saving and those who are "humble enough to admit they dont' ahve all the answers".

edit:
I am not trying to disprove the existance of your god I am just saying, because he reveals himself to you in your darkest hour does not mean he does to all if they follow him.

I did not say he just reveals himself to those who need to be saved. I said he reveals himseft to those who sincerely call upon him. The if you seek him you will find Him you will have so much joy in your life and he will give you peace that surpasses all understanding. You will not want to kill yourself. Because we were created to worship God and if we don't we feel a void and depression sets in. But if you get intouch with your creator and let him minister to you and have relationship with him your life will change. He will give you a new heart and new desires. I Know if there was no God the mirricle that happened with me would not have happened. There is no way I would have made it had God not showed up. I promise you if you open your heart and just put a child like trust in Him he will reveal himself to you. He love you as if you were the only person he ever made. And he desires you to have a relationship with you.

What do you mean tradition? My friend and I were working together for a while but now we do esbats on our own. We plan on celebrating Samhain together and with my boyfriend so it's just the three of us. Some told me that rituals aren't effective if you don't write them yourself. And from what my friend was teaching me it rang off as nature based and she told me it was that(several other people have too). I'm slowly studying on my own now though. The two books I use the most for info though are "The Wiccan Bible" by Ann-Marie Gallagher and "Wicca: the solitary pratctionar" by Scott Cunningham. I've found some good sites too. But I don't know what you mean by what tradition. Please explain? I've only been practicing for about 5 months so I think I'm still a bit new at it. Tonight is my first solitary esbat.

And you did say that beatlejuice
but hey No matter what you say My God is the one and only true God and he only reveals Himself to those who are humble enough to admitt they don't have all the answers to life. Jesus said he came to save the lost. I was lost and now I am found.


P.S. synnen do you know anything about crystal healing? I posted a while back asking if anyone knew of some really good books on it cause I'm very interested in it (I've got a few books on it but they don't have what I'm looking for, if you want to know what just check out the thread in the books section). Thanks!

Beatlejuice, I'm not going to get into a reddie-war with you.

Let's just say that every major holiday that Christianity celebrates has tones of the pagan religion that it took from. Trees, mistletoe, gifts, green boughs, holly--all Christmas traditions with pagan roots. Eggs and a bunny at Easter? Fertility symbols held over from Oestre. Halloween is when, in Christianity, the dead of the last year are able to walk for revenge (hence the whole costumes to hide from anyone who died that you may have wronged). For other pagan traditions, it's a time to acknowledge the things you did in the last year, face your faults, and vow to do better in the next year - a time to face your personal "demons", if you will.

For Christians, on December 25th, the SON is born. For ancient (pagan) customs--the SUN is born (look up the Roman Saturnalia for a LOT of the current Christmas traditions--including gift giving, feasting, singing, holding vigil - such as a midnight mass- with candles).

The idea of a god/follower walking on water was older than Christ. So was the idea of a god being born of a maiden/virgin. Look at traditions in the East and in Egypt. Look at Roman and Greek mythologies. Baptism, too, was pre-Christian - Achilles was technically "baptised"

Christianity borrowed from DOZENS of traditions and religions. I've even seen speculation that the disciples were named for other gods of the time of the Nicene convention. Matthew = Mithras, Peter = Jupiter, Mark = Mars, etc.

Please... do some research. I recognize that YOU believe in Christianity, and that it's a valid religion. I'm not trying to convert you away from it. I think that Christians that actually FOLLOW the teachings of Christ, and who love their neighbors regardless of their faults (as Jesus would do) are great people. It's the people that feel the need to tell me MY religion is wrong for ME that I detest. It's the people that truly believe the 10 commandments, but find killing people of a different religion to be okay (see the Crusades for numerous examples). It's killing people because they would not convert (um... the original missionaries to the New World, anyone?) that bothers me. It's Catholicism touting the benefits of celebate priests, then having a pedophilia issue in the church. It's burning innocent women because someone (usually someone in the church) accused them of casting a spell of lust upon the condemner. It's protesting against gay people, and denying them marriage, when God made them that way--and where does God say ANYWHERE that any kind of love is wrong? It's the selective reading of the Bible--Slavery was justified by the Bible, gay-hating is justified by the Bible, subjugation of women was justified by the Bible--and yet, incest isn't okay, even though Lot's daughters seduced him and bore him children. And how come, if it was okay in the Bible, so many people frown on polygamy? And yet you wonder how people could doubt Christianity? Christians don't even agree on what the Bible means, and you wonder how others could doubt that man-led institutions could get it completely right?

Christianity has some really great ideas! The problem is the people who think their interpretations of the Bible are the ONLY ideas, and try to force that "truth" onto others.

Synnen, thank you for your thoughts and extensive knowledge on pagan traditions. I did not know many of those things. I am curious about your Christian upbringing and how you left the Christian church. Please know that I am not here to "force" my beliefs on anyone. Read over my responses and you will see I am here for dialog between people that are seeking answers. I do have to say that I am a firm believer in the Bible. It is the True Word of God... (sorry, I BELIEVE It is the True Word of God.) When bringing up situations from the Bible, you need to be aware, that there are many stories from the bible that depict sinful acts and show that there is a cost for sin. The Old Testament is full of descriptions of sin, and how the punishment for sin is death. This is why I BELIEVE that Jesus was sent to the earth. He gave his life in replace for mine. I am not going to ever be separated from God again. I will die, but I will live forever in the Kingdom of Heaven. I DO NOT CONDEMN ANYONE. I do disapprove of sinful lifestyles. Realize that we are all sinners. I have sinned in my life. I try to obstain from sin and seek out the help of the Redeemer. I also know that I have confessed my sins (not to a preist) but to my Heavenly Father, and asked him to wash me clean. I gave my life as a whole to Christ, because he is my Creator, and my Savior. I DO NOT PUSH my faith or beliefs on anyone, I tell people about my faith, just like you do with yours. Please do not lump all Christians together, just as I do not lump all Wiccans(? appropriate term? ) together. I also don't know much about Wicca, I find it more important to study my own faith, to ensure I am right where God wants me to be in my life. I pray that understand where I am coming from and that I am not here to "convert" anyone. I am here to speak the "TRUTH" as I know it and believe it. Thank You. And God Bless.

tchalien, I am sorry if I came across the wrong way. I found really no fault with your posts.

It was beatlejuice that irked me :)

I left Christianity because I had a series of religious leaders that could not answer my questions. They couldn't even give me the answer "you just have to have faith". That bothered me, so I started doing research on Christianity, which led to 3 years of trying out and researching other faiths. I settled on Wicca because it was the closest thing to what my heart felt.

I really try not to lump all Christians together. I know that there are very good people who are Christians--and that's what really counts, isn't it? That we're good people, to ourselves, and to others?

I'm sorry if my post came across that way. I meant it only to mean that Christians are not ALL good people, and Christian policies, especially in the past, were not ALL good policies. I think that some Christians forget the horrible things their own church has done in the name of God. I think people of ALL religions are at times guilty of this.

Please--don't think that I hate all Christians. I find many of them to be great people, with a great background of morals and a good understanding of what it means to help their fellow men.

I just find that some are very close-minded and feel that no other religion has validation of any sort. That sort of thinking is what leads to religious wars, and to hatred for the sake of a God--and I know of no god that promotes hate in any form.

Faith!! The Bible is Truth. Its centered around Faith and belif. "Seeing isnt beliving. Beliving is seeing."- The Santa Clause movie xD

The thing is, I believe christianity is truth.
Needkarma believes that the world is truth and that's it
Biwiccan believes wicca is truth.
Yes, there is one truth, at least two of us, maybe even all of us are wrong.
But, we can probably all agree that -neither me, karma, or biwiccan can be called a better person than the other.
Its just offensive and rude to say "i am right and you are wrong"
I believe in god, but I also know, that saying "my religion is the truth, yours is false, and you are going to hell" isn't going to convert anyone to the faith.
We have to practice religious tolerance and respect peoples views.
There was a time when us christians didn't practice religious tolerance.
And guess what happened then? Well, people like bewicca were probably burnt or killed, other faiths nations were invaded in great crusades, etc
So, we don't have to agree with them, but we do have to respect them.
I know in my heart that god is real, but I still usually say "i believe" instead, why? Because it means I get along better with other people, and offending people isn't going to convert them.

Okay I am a Wiccan and I am proud, when someone asks me a question about Wicca, I calmly explain an answer (unless they are one of those people who ask me and then tell me, no matter what the answer i give, that I'm going to hell, which is pointless cause Wiccan's don't believe in hell,

"pointless because wiccans don't believe in hell"
According to absolute truth it doesn't matter WHAT we believe or do not believe if it exists it is there regardless! Example: I can believe there is no such thing as the atmosphere or gravity because I can not see it. I can deny it ALL I want; BUT that doesn't make it non existent.

I also believe the Bible because of many things that are too deep to explain here and religion is not going to teach it they are too busy arguing over man made doctrine. I will explain things to you as time goes on.

I have an interesting thing I started thinking and learning and am just now really studying about. Energy and matter and how everything relates to everything from our decisions, inter actions, health to the spiritual realm and how traditional churches teach that many things are occultic because they do not want us to know about the how to get in tune with our inner being. How doctors use drugs to mask symptoms, the system opposes alternative healing (calling it witch dr stuff) and how we are fed dead foods and the list goes on, because they do not want us living a full quality life and they do not want us to be aware of our spiritual nature and how to develop and use positive energy to our benefit and potential.

I believe all religions are leading us astray. SOME have some truths, but it is up to us as individuals to study and discern the spirits and develop ourselves to the full potential God has for us.
I started thinking about things like why do churches say astrology and fortune telling are wrong but church prophesy is good? How and where do you know how to tell the difference and so forth. I have been starting to study developing my spiritual intuitions and abilities but I am always careful to discern the spirit since I know some are NOT meant for us and some are. Like churches say pendulums are occultic, but I have been studying herbal medicine for the past 15 years. And this past week God has been leading me into something MUCH deeper than what all to take to put cancer into remission.

I started reading Young Again by John Thomas. It is about detoxing your system and reversing the aging process and it talks about how EVERYTHING is positive and negative energy. Whole fresh natural foods are mostly positive while modern drugs, processed foods with preservatives and much more are negative energy. It says that one way of determining is use a pendulum over whatever it is you want to know. It says the more you get away from the negative energies the more open you are to freeing your spirit to your spiritual being.

See!! Why can't other people be like that!! *is one of those kind of girls that wishes world peace but knows it's not gonna happen*


Sure it will, honey. You just have to wait on the spiritual evolusion of our planet!

Eh but until everyone can accept others spirituality then a spiritual evolusion isn't going to happen

according to absolute truth it doesn't matter WHAT we believe or do not believe if it exists it is there regardless!The problem there is that everything thinks their truth is the absolute truth.

As I have said previously... the truth will be discovered when you die. Till then you can only believe in it. Like I said I don't believe in hell but if I die and it's there then I was wrong if it's not then I'm right. But till I die and find out for sure then I can just stick to my beliefs that it is non existent.

I study the bible quite extensively (among other religious texts) and one thing I've come across numerous times relates to translation errors or ambiguities. Sometimes a word is translated incorrectly, e.g. world instead of principality. Many times word meanings have changed over the centuries to the point that they would've been pretty much right at the time of translation but not today. By this I'm talking the common usage of words today oft isn't what is was back then, e.g. spirit today is meant to be something akin to a non corporeal being. Yet it's early meaning (Latin spiritus, Greek pneuma, Hebrew ruach) was something very different, i.e. relating to the rational portion of the mind. Want to see what I mean? Look to how we use many of the words in our sayings and it becomes clear the meaning is not the common one of today. When we tell someone they have the spirit we're oft telling them they have the understanding, they're in the mindset, etc

Brainwashed probably isn't the right word but somewhat correct. Indoctrinated would be the correct in my opinion. By this I mean people are taught to accept it in a certain way and never question that way. The old saying "There are none so indoctrinated as the indoctrinators" is likely very apt. You get people going to these institutions called churches, yet Jesus speaks of a very different church, i.e. anywhere 2 or more people get together to discuss his teachings. Note the word "discuss" as this is not what modern churches do sadly


There is a lot of hate, discrimination, and prejudice in the world, because of sin. Man's sinful nature takes over, unless we surrender to the one that is perfect, the only ONE to ever walk this earth without sin, JESUS. There is sooooo much power in the just the name of Jesus. It is true there are "bad" things in this world, but God is bigger than all of that. Turn you eyes to Jesus, the author and perfector of our Faith. That is the way.

Historically speaking the evidence is stacking up against the idea that he existed as an historical personage and stacking up in favour of the idea that he may well be a litery device used to get a spiritual (of the mind) truth across to us. Today's Christianity in my opinion has much of the Bible wrong, esp its purpose. Take a close look at the Jesus of the NT and we find that he appears to be constructed from the stories of the OT. He's the serpent in the garden, he's moses, he's lazzarus, he's noah, etc. But we've been indoctrinated into believing he is separate from them. Even the Bible tels us that man is the author of the Bible, just inspired by God


There is a lot of hate, discrimination, and prejudice in the world, because of sin. Man's sinful nature takes over, unless we surrender to the one that is perfect, the only ONE to ever walk this earth without sin, JESUS. There is sooooo much power in the just the name of Jesus. It is true there are "bad" things in this world, but God is bigger than all of that. Turn you eyes to Jesus, the author and perfector of our Faith. That is the way.

Yep, and Mary way her name in Christianity. Eve in Judaism


the Bible was never rewriten. And if anyone attempted to rewrite then it is no longer The Bible. You can get the bible in its original text and language and so you can see the actual greek text in which it was writen. So the translations are pretty acurate. You can say you dont believe in Hell all you want but that will not change the reality. I can say i dont believe in gravity and jump off a cliff and the reallity will still hit. The Bible is the word of God and it is whole and it is truth.

I actually disagree. I see the NT as a Hellenized rewriting of the OT using GrecoRoman symbolism instead of Hebrew. I can see the baptism symbolism in the flood tale. Can see how Jesus mirrors the serpent in the OT (He gets us to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil (his teachings) for which he incurs the enmity of man (ridiculed and crucified) and is cursed above all else and has his head bruised by man (crown of thorns)... And of course many more throughout the whole thing


Sure that's a great example, you get to see the result of your experiment immediately. If I say I don't believe in the bible then nothing, absolutely nothing, happens to me.

Question is what is hell? If we look to the Bible re Heaven for example we are in effect told it's a place within us, i.e. a state of being. The Pharisees when asking about when the kingdom will arrive are tolds it's within them. We're also told it's already spread upon the earth and men don't see it. And yet continues the misconception that it's out there somewhere. Now if heaven is within us so to is hell as a state of being

People don't like being told that there are any questionable issues about their beliefs. After all, many things about the Christian bible have been rewritten, thrown out, translated, etc. If you ask them, they say you don't have faith. All you want to do is find out what is true. But by doing that you raise an even bigger issue to them that they don't want addressed: the possibility that none of their religion is true. So they just say "I have faith". Well, faith means believing in something for which there is no evidence.

But when you ask them for evidence of their religion (or their god's existence), they use the Bible as their proof. And when you ask for proof of the Bible's authenticity, they say that it is the word of Christian god. It's called "Circular logic". Of course the fact that other major religions have their own holy book is irrelevant to them because those people are just "wrong".

The bible was ordained by "God", which is "God's" word and gives "proof of his existence", because it was ordained by "God", which is "God's" word, and so on.

A nonbeliever or a Wiccan is simply abhorrent to them because we/you have shown them that their beliefs don't convince everyone. The fact that a person can look at their "evidence" and find flaws is very disturbing to them, and many will get defensive and angry.

A person of a different religion (Hindu, Sikh) isn't as bad because they have "faith" in "something". Atheists and "witches" are just evil. There's no incentive not to eat little children or to rob the poor and use their food stamps to buy drugs.

Sadly quite true about people not wanting their beliefs questioned. It's what's called a comfort zone. Anything outside that zone makes them uncomfortable to the point that they must protect the comfort zone at all costs :(

For a lot of people, religion is a very personal thing. I'm not even sure why that is. I have my own religious beliefs but I don't get bent out of shape towards those who believe otherwise. I just accept the fact that there are people who will believe differently from what I do and that's that. I don't try to argue with them or convince them that my way is right and their way is wrong. I don't tell them that they're going to hell even if I believe that they are. As it is, I don't know much about Wicca or any other faith except my own so it's really hard for me to make any definitive statements one way or another. As for the Bible, it's true that I accept it on a matter of faith. I believe it to be true but I won't get angry or upset with you if you question it.

My truth is that the bible, and other religious works, have been altered through the ages. Because they were written and translated by mortals (I hesitate to say men for fear of offending). If you are truly open minded, I recommend watching dogma. It adds some interesting perspective and makes you think about religion.
Oh, and people are afraid of things they do not know or understand.

! OMG!? Hilarious..!