"Lean not on thine own understanding", Prov. 3: 5. What does this mean but do not think for yourselves ? If we didn't lean on our own understanding we wouldn't have made all the progress we have, automobiles, air travel, space flight, modern medicine, the internet. We'd all still be in the dark ages if we didn't lean on our own understanding. If we didn't lean on our own understanding we wouldn't have these computers that we all find so useful that you all apparently like to use.

"Lean not on thine own understanding", Prov. 3: 5. What does this mean but do not think for yourselves ? If we didn't lean on our own understanding we wouldn't have made all the progress we have, automobiles, air travel, space flight, modern medicine, the internet. We'd all still be in the dark ages if we didn't lean on our own understanding. If we didn't lean on our own understanding we wouldn't have these computers that we all find so useful that you all apparently like to use.

The whole Proverb is the following, and the exact English words used do depend on which translation of the Bible that you use. But basically, the meaning is the same. "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If you post only half of the Proverb, as you have done, rather than posting the whole thing, and also without considering the whole Proverb and the context surrounding it, then it might cause a person to want to interpret that it means something other than that which are concerns of faith and salvation, such as you have. The Proverb has nothing to do with the material things of this world that you mention.

Please see the following site for more information.

Proverbs Chapter 3 (http://www.pbministries.org/Landmark_Baptist/Seminary/Bible_Study_Courses/Proverbs/DH_proverbs_chap03.htm)

The following is a quote from that same site.


Proverbs 3:5 “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” This is now the third time “heart” has been mentioned in this chapter. Head faith is not a saving faith, but a heart belief is, (Rom. 10:9-10), for it is a trust in the Lord; i.e. a dependence upon Him to save. “He guards against his recommendation of 'good understanding' in verse 4 being perverted into a ground for self-reliance,” [Faussett]. This is to be a total trust “with all thine heart.” Divided hearts are faulty in their faith toward God, (Hosea 10:2). Hence, David prayed for his heart to be united to fear the Lord, (Ps. 86:11-12). This, however, does not apply solely to salvation, for many heresies have been brought in because men tried to reason out doctrinal truth—leaning unto their own wisdom—instead of simply believing God's Word in all that it says.

The whole Proverb is the following, and the exact English words used do depend on which translation of the Bible that you use. But basically, the meaning is the same. "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If you post only half of the Proverb, as you have done, rather than posting the whole thing, and also without considering the whole Proverb and the context surrounding it, then it might cause a person to want to interpret that it means something other than that which are concerns of faith and salvation, such as you have. The Proverb has nothing to do with the material things of this world that you mention.

Please see the following site for more information.

Proverbs Chapter 3 (http://www.pbministries.org/Landmark_Baptist/Seminary/Bible_Study_Courses/Proverbs/DH_proverbs_chap03.htm)

The following is a quote from that same site.Heart & mind in the bible is often interchangeable, for example, Prov. 23: 7. In fact, the Hebrew word (leb) translated heart in 3:5 can be translated as mind according to James Strong. The word nephesh translated heart in 23: 7 can also be translated as mind according to Strong. This coupled with "understanding" in 3: 5 (Heb. Biynah, meaning knowledge, wisdom) shows that the context is talking about the mind, & by extension the thinking process. Trust in the Lord with all thy mind (thy thinking), & lean not on thine own understanding (knowledge). In other words, don't think for yourself, don't trust your own knowledge. This is a formula for brainwashing.

That's nice. So... what is your point, please?

That's nice. So... what is your point, please?Think for yourself, don't let a single book do all your thinking for you. Question, reason, don't take anything on pure faith.

Think for yourself, don't let a single book do all your thinking for you. Question, reason, don't take anything on pure faith.

Again, that's nice! Thank you for clarification as to what your point is and revealing more as to what you are about here.

I am very well-read, and I certainly do think for myself. Thank you!

Also, I take exception to you being so assuming and presumptuous as to what I or anyone else, for that matter, needs. If you don't mind my saying, I think that you need to take a look at yourself before pointing your finger at others with your opinions.

deist,
I'm not a big fan of organized religion either but I don't go on the attack to bait others. You sound like a bittter person that needs to overcome something. Currently you're no better that the JW that go door to door trying to convert and we all know how annoying that is.

deist,
I'm not a big fan of organized religion either but I don't go on the attack to bait others. You sound like a bittter person that needs to overcome something. Currently you're no better that the JW that go door to door trying to convert and we all know how annoying that is.You're doing the same thing I'm doing, trying to reason with these people. I read all your posts, & I don't see what you're doing any different from me.

Think for yourself, don't let a single book do all your thinking for you. Question, reason, don't take anything on pure faith.
You say this as if no one did use reason or question other things. There are other choices out there besides Christianity, which means there are reasons Christans believe what they do. Just as you have reasons you don't. Come on deist, think about it! How is the way you came about your belief any different than mine?

The only way to find God/Truth is to seek Him out. Therefore you aren't just taking things as they are. You are seeking it, and through God you will find it. We are incapable of understanding all that is God, but He gives us what we need to know until we are of perfect mind. It is because of the Spirit that you gain true understanding of God's Word not because of your mind alone. I know this for fact. I thought I knew things before I was saved, but after I became saved and studied with the Spirit in me I found out real quick that I knew nothing. You gain an understanding that you never could have on your own. Hence "lean not on thine own understanding."
Besides this verse is about understanding spiritually. The progress you spoke of is by worldly understanding.

Deist, you have to consider that the Old Testament was was written from a mind set of almost total ignorance and illiteracy compared to the world of knowledge we have today(medicine, techonology, everything). Greeks, the pagans, had the beginnings of knowledge and education... math, philosophy, political science...

Religious teaching is how some of the people consoled themselves, and they used GodAlmighty as a repository of all knowledge not revealed... it is like how some people console themselves today by saying that everything happens for a reason. It is reassuring to the person to think that a benevolent force is in charge. Having a comfortable and satisfying place to rest from the suffering and demands of life. :):):)

We do have to give humankind the credit for all the discoveries and advancements that have changed the world primarily in the last 150 years. It's truly amazing! :):):)

Trusting in God has nothing to do with not thinking for yourself. Lean not on your on understanding means you must put your faith in God, not in yourself , that you acknowledge God, put him first and he will keep you on the right path.
If God did not want us to use our brains, He would not have given us one. He wants us to put Him first, don't rely so much on our own strength that we forget it all comes from Him and leave Him out of our lives completely.
Of course if you don't believe, this means nothing to you and I can't imagine why you would ask to begin with, except maybe to try and bait people into arguments with you.

Who or what church offended you so deeply that you hate Christians and what we stand for?
You're doing the exact same thing I'm doing, trying to reason with these people. I read all your posts, & I don't see what you're doing any different from me.

Deist, you have to consider that the Old Testament was was written from a mind set of almost total ignorance and illiteracy compared to the world of knowledge we have today(medicine, techonology, everything). Greeks, the pagans, had the beginnings of knowledge and education...math, philosophy, political science.....

Religious teaching is how some of the people consoled themselves, and they used GodAlmighty as a repository of all knowledge not revealed.....it is like how some people console themselves today by saying that everything happens for a reason. It is reassuring to the person to think that a benevolent force is in charge. Having a comfortable and satisfying place to rest from the suffering and demands of life. :):):)

We do have to give humankind the credit for all the discoveries and advancements that have changed the world primarily in the last 150 years. It's truly amazing! :):):)I agree with everything you said.

It seems to me, if you don't believe, if you think it's foolish then that is your right. Why then does other's belief bother you so much?
I find it comical when people spend so much time downing Christianity. It means it's on their mind an awful lot. I don't spend anytime thinking about Atheist. I don't argue with them or even have discussions with them unless they approach me.
If you believe "to each his own" then leave Christians alone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Deist,
I'm not a big fan of organized religion either but I don't go on the attack to bait others. You sound like a bittter person that needs to overcome something. Currently you're no better that the JW that go door to door trying to convert and we all know how annoying that is.



You're doing the same thing I'm doing, trying to reason with these people. I read all your posts, & I don't see what you're doing any different from me.

NeedKarma calls it like he sees it on a case-by-case basis, really on whatever subject might be the concern. I don't see where, in his statement above in this particular thread, especially "I'm not a big fan of organized religion either but I don't go on the attack to bait others." has anything to do with reasoning with anybody else on this particular thread, other than you.

It seems to me, if you don't believe, if you think it's foolish then that is your right. Why then does other's belief bother you so much?
I find it comical when people spend so much time downing Christianity. It means it's on their mind an awful lot. I don't spend anytime thinking about Atheist. I don't argue with them or even have discussions with them unless they approach me.
If you believe "to each his own" then leave Christians alone.Have you heard of the christian reconstructionists ? They have infiltrated politics, government, & the far right. Their agenda is to turn America into a totalitarian theocracy where all the moral laws of the Old Testament will be the only rule of law, including the death penalty for homosexuals, adulterers, unruly children, & idolaters (they consider even other christians idolaters who are not reconstructionist). They are backed by many evangelical churches in America. So I do this is as my own little attempt in my own way to fight against the reconstructionists. As I said they are backed by evangelical churches, & such pastors as D. James Kennedy & Jerry Falwell (who even though they're dead now they still have many followers). Most christians in America are evangelical, so for all I know every christian on here is a part of the reconstructionist movement.

For more insight on what deist says please watch "The Power of Nightmares". A great BBC documentary available here: Power of Nightmares - Google Video (http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=Power+of+Nightmares)

I am Christian and not part of this movement. Don't assume.
Have you heard of the christian reconstructionists ? They have infiltrated politics, government, & the far right. Their agenda is to turn America into a totalitarian theocracy where all the moral laws of the Old Testament will be the only rule of law, including the death penalty for homosexuals, adulterers, unruly children, & idolaters (they consider even other christians idolaters who are not reconstructionist). They are backed by many evangelical churches in America. So I do this is as my own little attempt in my own way to fight against the reconstructionists. As I said they are backed by evangelical churches, & such pastors as D. James Kennedy & Jerry Falwell (who even though they're dead now they still have many followers). Most christians in America are evangelical, so for all I know every christian on here is a part of the reconstructionist movement.

"Lean not on thine own understanding", Prov. 3: 5. What does this mean but do not think for yourselves ? If we didn't lean on our own understanding we wouldn't have made all the progress we have, automobiles, air travel, space flight, modern medicine, the internet. We'd all still be in the dark ages if we didn't lean on our own understanding. If we didn't lean on our own understanding we wouldn't have these computers that we all find so useful that you all apparently like to use.


Basically, it admonishes us to turn to God for guidance and direction in our lives in order to be truly successful. Man was not created with the ability to rule over himself or to direct his own way in life successfully apart from God. Jeremiah 10:23 states that very clearly. Man was created with a spiritual need, a need to worship, and a need to be led by his Creator. Since the rebellion in Eden, man is born with imperfection and sinful tendencies, meaning that his inclination with his own understanding is towards wrong decisions. By making use of God's "guidebook" for us, the Bible, we can make the proper decisions in life that will make us truly happy and will help our relationship with God to grow and deepen.

Have you heard of the christian reconstructionists ? They have infiltrated politics, government, & the far right. Their agenda is to turn America into a totalitarian theocracy where all the moral laws of the Old Testament will be the only rule of law, including the death penalty for homosexuals, adulterers, unruly children, & idolaters (they consider even other christians idolaters who are not reconstructionist). They are backed by many evangelical churches in America. So I do this is as my own little attempt in my own way to fight against the reconstructionists. As I said they are backed by evangelical churches, & such pastors as D. James Kennedy & Jerry Falwell (who even though they're dead now they still have many followers). Most christians in America are evangelical, so for all I know every christian on here is a part of the reconstructionist movement.


Your responses make you sound like a paranoid, conspirarcy theorist. Is this true?

Your statement "Most christians in America are evangelical, so for all I know every christian on here is a part of the reconstructionist movement" is in my opinion not accurate and is not a proved fact but again another paranoia. You are so WAY off base by every bit of this response that I question why I am even typing a response to this now...

Man was not created with the ability to rule over himself or to direct his own way in life successfully apart from God.
But I'm doing that.. right now. I call the shots in my life, I'm directing my life and I'm successful at it.


Jeremiah 10:23 states that very clearly. Man was created with a spiritual need, a need to worship, and a need to be led by his Creator.That can't be since a few billion people on this planet have no need for your god and they run their lives just fine.
By making use of God's "guidebook" for us, the Bible, we can make the proper decisions in life that will make us truly happy. I've been doing that for 30 years, without a book.

Basically, it admonishes us to turn to God for guidance and direction in our lives in order to be truly successful. Man was not created with the ability to rule over himself or to direct his own way in life successfully apart from God. Jeremiah 10:23 states that very clearly. Man was created with a spiritual need, a need to worship, and a need to be led by his Creator. Since the rebellion in Eden, man is born with imperfection and sinful tendencies, meaning that his inclination with his own understanding is towards wrong decisions. By making use of God's "guidebook" for us, the Bible, we can make the proper decisions in life that will make us truly happy and will help our relationship with God to grow and deepen.


Although your response is well said and addresses the question; Deist doesn't want an answer Deist wants to get Christians riled up so we loose sight of things. He/She sole intention is to create chaos and attempt to discredit anything and everything Christian and/or biblical (just look at his posts and responses).

Caution to all believers: Be perserverant with the content of your responses but do not get baited!

But I'm doing that..right now. I call the shots in my life, I'm directing my life and I'm succesful at it.

That can't be since a few billion people on this planet have no need for your god and they run their lives just fine. I've been doing that for 30 years, without a book.


No, you're not successful, nor are the "few billion people" who have no need for God. Just the way it goes, jack.

No, you're not successful, nor are the "few billion people" who have no need for God. Just the way it goes, jack.Ok, I'll bite. Prove to me I am not successful. Also define your version of a successful life.

Ok, I'll bite. Prove to me I am not succesful. Also define your version of a succesful life.

(Yawn)... forget it, you're not worth the time. Let me spare you from having to type out your sure 10-year-old-ish response "You won't respond because you can't". Sure, whatever you say.

I hope you don't have kids.

I hope you don't have kids.

Back at you.

Back at ya.Got two great ones, thanks for caring. :)

Got two great ones, thanks for caring. :)


Well happy day.

Have you heard of the christian reconstructionists ? They have infiltrated politics, government, & the far right. Their agenda is to turn America into a totalitarian theocracy where all the moral laws of the Old Testament will be the only rule of law, including the death penalty for homosexuals, adulterers, unruly children, & idolaters (they consider even other christians idolaters who are not reconstructionist). They are backed by many evangelical churches in America. So I do this is as my own little attempt in my own way to fight against the reconstructionists. As I said they are backed by evangelical churches, & such pastors as D. James Kennedy & Jerry Falwell (who even though they're dead now they still have many followers). Most christians in America are evangelical, so for all I know every christian on here is a part of the reconstructionist movement.
for all I know every christian on here is a part of the reconstructionist movement.[/
You are assuming that all Christains feel this way, and they don't. IF you have a problem with some Christains then address those who you have the problem with, but don't assume that all Christians fit your negeative view of some. Your trying to bait them into arguments looks like foolishness to those who are not a part of the segment of people you have a problem with.

I think everyone should just ignore Diest because he is just out to Convert everyone to his Diestic religion. But as I have seen, he is more of an atheist or something than a diest because he was arguing against me when I was trying to prove that saying there is no god is an irrational statement. You would think a diest would support that argument distpite differences on which god we feel is sovereign. He said something like "I believe there is a god but i dont "know" if there is a god..." he went on about science and evolution blah blan blah. So diest is just confused he doesn't know who he is or what he believes. I think he has just formed a new religion called THE Confusion Diestic Athiestic Agnostic Evolutionistic Evangelistic Religion the C.S.A.A.E.E for short. You are confused buddy stop attacking the Christian beliefes and stick to your own... People who spend the whole day trying to attack other people's religion are just in secure about their own.

I think everyone should just ignore Diest because he is just out to Convert everyone to his Diestic religion. But as i have seen, he is more of an athiest or something than a diest because he was arguing against me when i was trying to prove that saying there is no god is an irrational statement. You would think a diest would support that argument distpite differences on which god we feel is soverign. He said something like "I believe there is a god but i dont "know" if there is a god..." he went on about science and evolution blah blan blah. So diest is just confused he doesnt know who he is or what he believes. i think he has just formed a new religion called THE Confusion Diestic Athiestic Agnostic Evolutionistic Evangelistic Religion the C.S.A.A.E.E for short. You are confused buddy stop attacking the Christian beliefes and stick to your own... People who spend the whole day trying to attack other people's religion are just in secure about thier own.I don't care what you or anyone says you sanctimonious hypocrite, you do not KNOW that there is a God.

I don't care what you or anyone says you sanctimonious hypocrite, you do not KNOW that there is a God.

Common sense would dictate that there is a Creator, and this Creator is God Almighty. A close examination of the planet, of what we know of the universe, of the minute details that allows us to live and breathe is ample evidence to KNOW that there is an intelligence behind it all. It's absurd to think otherwise, that everything just sort of happened by chance.

Common sense would dictate that there is a Creator, and this Creator is God Almighty. A close examination of the planet, of what we know of the universe, of the minute details that allows us to live and breathe is ample evidence to KNOW that there is an intelligence behind it all. It's absurd to think otherwise, that everything just sort of happened by chance.I believe in God because of those arguments in one form or another, but there could be another explanation of how the universe began that didn't involve a deity. I BELIEVE in God, that doesn't mean there is one. I also believe in evolutionary science. It didn't make me an atheist.

I believe in God because of those arguments in one form or another, but there could be another explanation of how the universe began that didn't involve a deity. I BELIEVE in God, that doesn't mean there is one. I also believe in evolutionary science. It didn't make me an atheist.

Diest, you can KNOW God exists. I KNOW God exists. Knowing and fact/undeniable evidence doesn't always have to go hand in hand. I used this example in response to you in another post... I know when I have a headache, but I can't prove it for a fact when I have one. Just because I can't prove it to you doesn't mean my head doesn't hurt nor does it mean I don't know when I have one. So, I may cannot prove God's existence to be fact, but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist nor that we can't KNOW He does exist.

Diest, you can KNOW God exists. I KNOW God exists. Knowing and fact/undeniable evidence doesn't always have to go hand in hand. I used this example in response to you in another post...I know when I have a headache, but I can't prove it for a fact when I have one. Just because I can't prove it to you doesn't mean my head doesn't hurt nor does it mean I don't know when I have one. So, I may cannot prove God's existance to be fact, but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist nor that we can't KNOW He does exist.There is a young new theory that mathematicians & quantum phyicists are looking into, that the big bang that formed our universe was caused by a collision with another universe that exists along side ours in a higher dimension, & that this has been happening over & over again forever. Right now it's just a theory & it may never be proven, but there is always the chance this is the correct theory. That could explain existence without a Creator if ever proven true. But I doubt it will ever be proven true. I believe the standard big bang theory.

I don't care what you or anyone says you sanctimonious hypocrite, you do not KNOW that there is a God.

Whether you want to believe it or not, it does change the fact that I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt there is a God... the one true God the almighty God who sent his son Jesus who is just as much God as He is to die on the cross for your sins and mine.

I believe in God because of those arguments in one form or another, but there could be another explanation of how the universe began that didn't involve a deity. I BELIEVE in God, that doesn't mean there is one. I also believe in evolutionary science. It didn't make me an atheist.
OK, so why are you so angry? Do you want everyone to believe as you do? Can you not accept that there are those of us who are firm believers, and if so how does that affect what you believe?

Whether you want to believe it or not, it does change the fact that I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt there is a God... the one true God the almighty God who sent his son Jesus who is just as much God as He is to die on the cross for your sins and mine.Can you prove Jesus is the Christ without using the bible ? No. That's because the bible isn't backed by any independent contemporary historical testimony. The bible is pure hearsay, second hand information, delivered through a so-called prophet who claimed it was the word of God. If God doesn't directly communicate with you, then it is not revelation. It is hearsay, & hearsay is not generally admissible in court. Find some Confirmed secular historical source contemporary with Jesus & see if they recount Jesus' miracles or resurrection.

Can you prove Jesus is the Christ without using the bible ? No. That's because the bible isn't backed by any independant contemporary historical testimony. The bible is pure hearsay, second hand information, delivered through a so-called prophet who claimed it was the word of God. If God doesn't directly communicate with you, then it is not revelation. It is hearsay, & hearsay is not generally admissible in court. Find some Confirmed secular historical source contemporary with Jesus & see if they recount Jesus' miracles or resurrection.


That has to be one of the most stupidest things I've ever read in here... so far.

"Lean not on thine own understanding", Prov. 3: 5. What does this mean but do not think for yourselves ? If we didn't lean on our own understanding we wouldn't have made all the progress we have, automobiles, air travel, space flight, modern medicine, the internet. We'd all still be in the dark ages if we didn't lean on our own understanding. If we didn't lean on our own understanding we wouldn't have these computers that we all find so useful that you all apparently like to use.

Good question. First off let me clarify that I'm not a Christian, though I have a good respect for them. Since this question involves the Tanakh I would like to answer it.

The opening verses in Proverbs 3, according to the Hebrew translation, JPS, are "My son, do not forget my teaching." So right here we get an idea of subject, "teaching." What is that teaching? Well within the same verse we are told, "But let your mind retain my commandments." So here we have the subject teaching specifying the commandments.

The knowledge here spoke of is not the learning of educational technologies, advances medicines, or even communication, rather those commandments that G-d gave the ancient Hebrews, Tribes, the ancestors that is of modern Jews, and Gentiles (within the camps of Israelites) and to some degree all Gentiles since being under the Noachide laws.

When being taught Judaism, the rabbis teach that G-d gave the commandments and while we may understand on the surface the reason for a particular commandment, in actuality the reason we should observe any commandment is because G-d said so, not for us to guess or lean on our own understanding. In fact we (Jews and all believers in the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob) are told in the complete context of Proverbs 3:5, "Trust in the L-rd with all your heart, And do not rely on your own understanding."

BTW, Judaism and Christianity both teach that G-d gave us good minds to use, learn, help others, so as for the subject of advances in medicine, use of computers, science in general, this link supports thus action: Jewish Nobel Prize Winners (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nobels.html)



Bobby

if we came from nothing, where did the nothing come from? and what is nothing? can you ever get order from chaos? look around you and see the work that declares the existence of the One True God.
Psalm 19
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1THE HEAVENS declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows and proclaims His handiwork.(A)
2Day after day pours forth speech, and night after night shows forth knowledge.

3There is no speech nor spoken word [from the stars]; their voice is not heard.

4Yet their voice [in evidence] goes out through all the earth, their sayings to the end of the world.

And if you believe in evolution, why did some choose to crawl out of the water or ooze and not others? Why do humans have higher reasoning and not all creatures? how can you explain the intricacies of the eye? How about how you were formed? How do you explain why there is life if the universe should be declining? Why is there beauty and why is there music?
There is a young new theory that mathmaticians & quantum phyicists are looking into, that the big bang that formed our universe was caused by a collision with another universe that exists along side ours in a higher dimension, & that this has been happening over & over again forever. Right now it's just a theory & it may never be proven, but there is always the chance this is the correct theory. That could explain existence without a Creator if ever proven true. But I doubt it will ever be proven true. I believe the standard big bang theory.

I think it means like when I just have to do something and I can even give a bunch of reasons I just have to do whatever and something keeps telling me no and I do it anyway and it turns out to be a disaster or days later I find out I should have waited and did whatever then and I jumped the gun and missed out on something or ended up having to redo it cause I didn't wait until the right time.

OK, so why are you so angry? Do you want everyone to belive as you do? Can you not accept that there are those of us who are firm believers, and if so how does that affect what you believe?If certain christian groups in America get their way America will become a totalitarian theocracy where there is no religious liberty or free speech or separation of church & state. If they get their way it will certainly affect my right to believe as I do. As long as there are people who believe the bible this danger will continue to exist.

If certain christian groups in America get their way America will become a totalitarian theocracy where there is no religious liberty or free speech or separation of church & state. If they get their way it will certainly affect my right to believe as I do. As long as there are people who believe the bible this danger will continue to exist.

This is not going to happen deist. There are more people who do not believe in God/the Bible than those who do.

This is not going to happen deist. There are more people who do not believe in God/the Bible than those who do.The christian reconstructionists have already infiltrated the government & they are influencing our laws. It only takes a few judges to impose crazy laws on all of us, whether they are outnumbered or not. I read on one website that president Bush has been known to consult with the reconstructionists.

The christian reconstructionists have already infiltrated the governement & they are influencing our laws. It only takes a few judges to impose crazy laws on all of us, whether they are outnumbered or not. I read on one website that president Bush has been known to consult with the reconstructionists.

Would you care to elaborate more in depth as to what you are talking about? I don't understand. I have never heard of President Bush consulting with the reconstructionists. I highly doubt that such a thing is taking place.

Would you care to elaborate more in depth as to what you are talking about? I don't understand. I have never heard of President Bush consulting with the reconstructionists. I highly doubt that such a thing is taking place.Christian Reconstructionism and the Real Meaning of a Christian America (http://www.atheism.about.com/b/a/232594.htm)

If certain christian groups in America get their way America will become a totalitarian theocracy where there is no religious liberty or free speech or separation of church & state. If they get their way it will certainly affect my right to believe as I do. As long as there are people who believe the bible this danger will continue to exist.
The same could be said for the Muslim Faith and for Atheism. God is already being removed from places. God forbid you say the word in public and your ideas certainly affect my right to believe. The fact that you are here trying to brow beat Christianity attest to your freedom. Christianity is not the problem. Extremism from any front is the problem.
I think you may be barking up the wrong tree.

I believe in freedom of religion, but I also think the Muslim faith is more dangerous to your way of life than Christianity is. But again, extremism of any kind is dangerous.

I believe in freedom of religion, but I also think the Muslim faith is more dangerous to your way of life than Christianity is. But again, extremism of any kind is dangerous.The christian reconstructionists are just as dangerous as any muslim extremist. They want to expand the death penalty to include homosexuals, adulterers, unruly adult children, & idolaters (& they consider even non-reconstructionist christians to be idolaters). They are in government. If you are not a reconstructionist then you're in danger too christian or not.

The christian reconstructionists have already infiltrated the governement & they are influencing our laws. It only takes a few judges to impose crazy laws on all of us, whether they are outnumbered or not. I read on one website that president Bush has been known to consult with the reconstructionists.


Do you believe everything you read on the internet? That is less reliable than the Bible, you better watch out :)

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? That is less reliable than the Bible, you better watch out :)I bet you trust those internet sites that says the earth was formed 6000 to 10000 years ago, & that says dinosaurs lived with men. You believe in talking snakes & talking donkeys, & you tell me not to believe everything I read on the internet ?

Can you prove Jesus is the Christ without using the bible ? No. That's because the bible isn't backed by any independant contemporary historical testimony. The bible is pure hearsay, second hand information, delivered through a so-called prophet who claimed it was the word of God. If God doesn't directly communicate with you, then it is not revelation. It is hearsay, & hearsay is not generally admissible in court. Find some Confirmed secular historical source contemporary with Jesus & see if they recount Jesus' miracles or resurrection.


Lol... are you serious. It is a historical fact that Jesus lived even secularists at least admit that! There are plenty of non Biblical acounts of Jesus and the miracles he performed. You need to do your research. The fact that he is Christ is received through faith in the claims he has made. & since have accepted him as christ, I have a relationship with him and I talk to him every day and he talks to me every day. He has turned my life around. I was adicted to drugs, sex you name it and the day I called out to him and invited him into my life he changed me. Instantly my desire for drugs and evil things disappeared. I literary felt his power surge through my body. I was just like you diest. People told me about God/Jesus and I thought they we crazy. Until I was at my lowest point and death was knocking on my door. Out of all the religious names I heard of Muhamed, Budah, confucious etc. the only name that I found myself calling upon was Jesus. Jesus showed up into my life and my life has never been better.

So I why would I try and go out and digg out historical evidence fossil records and all that jargon, if I have experienced him first hand. What he did for me is more than enough evedence to prove his existence. No- one can convince me( no matter how much evidence you try and dig up) he does not exist because I have seen him and felt his presence. & that is why when you trying to interlectually argue against a Christian, it is a waist of time because all these Christians you see on here, have each had a personal encounter with Him. So a guy who calls himself Diest on the Ask Me help desk website is not going to change their minds so you are waisting valuable time you could be using toward something more product.

I bet you trust those internet sites that says the earth was formed 6000 to 10000 years ago, & that says dinosaurs lived with men. You believe in talking snakes & talking donkeys, & you tell me not to believe everything I read on the internet ?


I suppose beiliving in some Big Bang that just happened from know where and everything that is inexistance came from some brown soup is more realistic. I don't thinks that is far more of a strech. The only reason you believe is the world is billions of years old is because someone told you that. There is not evidence for that. How do you know dinosuars did not live at the same time as man. Were you there? No since you think seeing is believing... Was anyone there that long ago to say with certainty that the world is that old? NO. but you believe it anyway. Evolution is a THEORY not a Fact. Definition of the Theory :An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture. The world could be 1000 days old for all we can really historicaly know. But I believe the Bible is Truth so I will go with 6k. You have just been brain washed into thinking what ever theories scientist dish out to must be Fact. But most of what they say about the origin of the earth is based one assumption after another one speculation after another. God is the Greatest scientist there is because he created science

Consider your own home, as a good example... you KNOW that it was constructed by someone. It didn't just have all of its components randomly or haphardly come together just out of blind chance. Your home is kept a comfortable temperature is stocked with an ample amount of food. The same thing applies to the earth. Where is the logic behind saying that an intelligent creator isn't responsible for our home, earth? How could it make ANY kind of sense that the earth is kept in exactly the right orbit and distance from the sun in order to support and sustain life without someone having placed it where it is, just so? Any closer to the sun and we'd burn up... and further away and we'd freeze to death. Then there's all of earth's cycles, the seasons, the water cycle, and so on and so forth... how could it possibly have all come together and stayed in place without someone of great power and intelligence having designed it this way?

The notion that there was this sudden "big bang" so many countless millions or billions of years ago is absurd. Where would the materials have come from in the first place in order to compose this "big bang"?

I bet you trust those internet sites that says the earth was formed 6000 to 10000 years ago, & that says dinosaurs lived with men. You believe in talking snakes & talking donkeys, & you tell me not to believe everything I read on the internet ?


Are you a politician because you have an uncanny ability to not answer a question and then argue completely irrelevant issues.

I believe in the Bible and no amount of your consipracy theories of "reconstructionists" or whatever is going to get me or the majority of other christians to change our minds. I believe in God and Jesus and what they said and did and what they continue to say to me.

Consider your own home, as a good example......you KNOW that it was constructed by someone. It didn't just have all of its components randomly or haphardly come together just out of blind chance. Your home is kept a comfortable temperature is stocked with an ample amount of food. The same thing applies to the earth. Where is the logic behind saying that an intelligent creator isn't responsible for our home, earth? How could it make ANY kind of sense that the earth is kept in exactly the right orbit and distance from the sun in order to support and sustain life without someone having placed it where it is, just so? Any closer to the sun and we'd burn up....and further away and we'd freeze to death. Then there's all of earth's cycles, the seasons, the water cycle, and so on and so forth.....how could it possibly have all come together and stayed in place without someone of great power and intelligence having designed it this way?

The notion that there was this sudden "big bang" so many countless millions or billions of years ago is absurd. Where would the materials have come from in the first place in order to compose this "big bang"?You must not read all the posts. I have said on several occasions that I believe in a God.

Consider your own home, as a good example......you KNOW that it was constructed by someone. It didn't just have all of its components randomly or haphardly come together just out of blind chance. Your home is kept a comfortable temperature is stocked with an ample amount of food. The same thing applies to the earth. Where is the logic behind saying that an intelligent creator isn't responsible for our home, earth? How could it make ANY kind of sense that the earth is kept in exactly the right orbit and distance from the sun in order to support and sustain life without someone having placed it where it is, just so? Any closer to the sun and we'd burn up....and further away and we'd freeze to death. Then there's all of earth's cycles, the seasons, the water cycle, and so on and so forth.....how could it possibly have all come together and stayed in place without someone of great power and intelligence having designed it this way?

The notion that there was this sudden "big bang" so many countless millions or billions of years ago is absurd. Where would the materials have come from in the first place in order to compose this "big bang"?


You are right on! But your argument to Deist is fallling on deaf ears because Deist has been severely hurt by the church or christians in some way and has blocked out any attempt for the truth to be heard.

Consider your own home, as a good example......you KNOW that it was constructed by someone. It didn't just have all of its components randomly or haphardly come together just out of blind chance. Your home is kept a comfortable temperature is stocked with an ample amount of food. The same thing applies to the earth. Where is the logic behind saying that an intelligent creator isn't responsible for our home, earth? How could it make ANY kind of sense that the earth is kept in exactly the right orbit and distance from the sun in order to support and sustain life without someone having placed it where it is, just so? Any closer to the sun and we'd burn up....and further away and we'd freeze to death. Then there's all of earth's cycles, the seasons, the water cycle, and so on and so forth.....how could it possibly have all come together and stayed in place without someone of great power and intelligence having designed it this way?

The notion that there was this sudden "big bang" so many countless millions or billions of years ago is absurd. Where would the materials have come from in the first place in order to compose this "big bang"?

You are so right! The only reason why evolutionist say the earth is millions of years old is because they need that many years to defend their theory. The theory of evolution's basisically says over billions of years anything can happen. So basically if you had a 2 monkeys on typewriters randonmly typying over billions of years, they would eventually at one point come up with All of shakespears works (Romeo&J , Othelo, Hamlet etc) including all the sonnets and rhyming couplets. That's is highy impropable even over billions of years.. I don't know why today still believe in that theory when the creator of the theory charlse darwin, doubted his own theory.

You must not read all the posts. I have said on several occasions that I believe in a God.

You say you believe in God but you say you believe in the big bang? Make up your mind. You are confusing people. Where do you stand? What do you believe? Who do you believe in? What is the name of your god?

you are so right!! the only reason why evolutionist say the earth is millions of years old is because they need that many years to defend thier theory. the theory of evolution's basisically says over billions of years anything can happen. So basically if you had a 2 monkies on typewriters randonmly typying over billions of years, they would eventually at one point come up with All of shakespears works (Romeo&J , Othelo, Hamlet etc) incuding all the sonnets and rhyming couplets. Thats is highy impropable even over billions of years.. I dont know why today still believe in that theory when the creator of the theory charlse darwin, doubted his own theory.


THAT IS GREAT! I can just picture two monkeys now, they would be geniuses after a billion/million years.

silentrascal disagrees: Your credibility is likewise shot

I feel bad for you. I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your comment about someone's credibility and you resort to character assassination. While you attacked another's credibilty, your argument was that the person was not an expert and therefore not credible because they were not present at the writing. This would make everyone posting not credible, including yourself, because we were not present for the translating. Character assassination is a low blow. I will not reply to any more of this type of post from you.

I feel bad for you. I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your comment about someone's credibility and you resort to character assassination. While you attacked another's credibilty, your argument was that the person was not an expert and therefore not credible because they were not present at the writing. This would make everyone posting not credible, including yourself, because we were not present for the translating. Character assassination is a low blow. I will not reply to any more of this type of post from you.That's why this poster has the avatar that was given to them.

What do you mean?
That's why this poster has the avatar that was given to them.

Haha, my bad, I get silentrascal and tatertot mixed up all the time. Same messages and delivery I guess. Sorry about that.

you say you believe in God but you say you believe in the big bang?? make up your mind. You are confusing people. Where do you stand? what do you believe? who do you believe in?? what is the name of your god?Everyone accepts the big bang theory, even christians. Christians believe it was the moment God said, "Let there be light".

Deist:

First off , I want to reassure you about the Christian reconstructionists. I am not one of them.
You may even consider me a fundamentalist, if so, Romans 13 should help alay your fears.


As to the Big Bang Theory, how does that not violate the first law of thermodynamics?

Even avowed atheists like Crick, of Dna double helix fame, had to come up with another even more improbable and theory, panspermia, that is less likely to be been proven than God or evolution.
Crick discovered the complexity of Dna and as a scientist could not explain how evolution would account for this.


Then there is proteonomics
Proteomics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteomics)

"E.g., in human there are about 25 000 identified genes but an estimated >500 000 proteins that are derived from these genes. This increased complexity derives from mechanisms such as alternative splicing, protein modification (glycosylation,phosphorylation) and protein degradation."

Now if the origin of DNA cannot be explained or experimentally reproduced how can the origin of ribosomes, mrna, amino acids interacting in a cell be proved or reproduced?



Now I understand the argument that science will eventually come up with the answers and that is logical, but to say that,

Christians with a science background, like myself, are just not thinking about all this and blindly accept what their spoon fed from childhood is not a correct statement.
I see the evidence of a "God" in all this.

I welcome your questions and your opinions, it stimulates me from my complacency in my faith to explore it further.

Thank You





Grace and peace

The christian reconstructionists are just as dangerous as any muslim extremist. They want to expand the death penalty to include homosexuals, adulterers, unruly adult children, & idolaters (& they consider even non-reconstructionist christians to be idolaters). They are in government. If you are not a reconstructionist then you're in danger too christian or not.
Where do you get this nonsense? I do not know any Christians who feel this way. This is about extremism. However I had heard of groups who think Christains ought to die.

I highly disagree. Big Bang Theory states that something came from nothing, that nothing whatsoever existed before the bang.
I believe in the Bible and Creation. This means I believe that God has ALWAYS existed and ALWAYS will. He spoke the universe into creation. This isn't anywhere near the theory of the big bang. As I asked before, "And if you believe in evolution, why did some choose to crawl out of the water or ooze and not others? Why do humans have higher reasoning and not all creatures? how can you explain the intricacies of the eye? How about how you were formed? How do you explain why there is life if the universe should be declining? Why is there beauty and why is there music?"
Can you explain?
Everyone accepts the big bang theory, even christians. Christians believe it was the moment God said, "Let there be light".

silentrascal disagrees: Your credibility is likewise shot

I feel bad for you. I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your comment about someone's credibility and you resort to character assassination. While you attacked another's credibilty, your argument was that the person was not an expert and therefore not credible because they were not present at the writing. This would make everyone posting not credible, including yourself, because we were not present for the translating. Character assassination is a low blow. I will not reply to any more of this type of post from you.


And I pity you. You were attempting to point out something that wasn't there. I say he's not credible because he has an admitted bias that taints his entire argument.

Please, get off the soapbox.

you say you believe in God but you say you believe in the big bang?? make up your mind. You are confusing people. Where do you stand? what do you believe? who do you believe in?? what is the name of your god?I see you like to call people who don't agree with you trolls. I could just as well call you a dangerous fanatical fundamentalist extremist who can't even spell correctly. I said it before & I'll say it again, someone like you could never lead me to Jesus were I so inclined.

> Thread Closed <

FYI Tatertot has been permanently BANNED from the site for their continued intolerance towards others views and beliefs.
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