How does a 14 year old get his hands on a gun, where were the parents of this children after he was suspended?

WHy did the parents have the gun in a safe place away from the child?

Gun safe is very important and I use only safe storage of any weapons away from children, I personally blame the parents.:mad:


4 reportedly shot at Cleveland school - Crime & Punishment - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21224357/)

I believe you are right... the parents and the boy are to blame. On another note do you think he couldn't get one illegally from another source? Or do you think if it wasn't easily accessible he wouldn't have carried this awful thing out?

The parents as well as the boy should be held responsible. All but one of my firearms are in a locked Granite Safe, not a "gun cabinet" but a safe that has a combination lock as well as a key.

If parents are held responsible for their minor childs' crime (gun crimes in particular), we may see a little more education.

My children are not allowed into a room when there is a gun out of the safe, or if the safe door is open. They know that, they respect that. They respect the dangers a firearm can cause.

As for bb guns, air guns and the like, I will not allow my children to have them or even play with them. I know, some of you are going WHAT :eek: ?

Here is the logic in that. Kids shoot at each other with bb guns, pellet guns, air guns, etc. They do not learn to respect a firearm when they get a hold of one. They don't see just how dangerous a .22 can be compared to a pellet gun.

Now, mind you, I used to be afraid of firearms as some of you other members are. Did not want them in my home, did not want to even look at one. Until I was in a hostage situation myself back in 2003. CNN.com - Transcripts (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0309/17/bn.03.html)

State Gazette (http://news.mywebpal.com/partners/870/public/news491103.html)
Sure I had some firearms when I lived in Alaska, that was because we went camping in the wilderness and took them with us if we ever were confronted by a grizzly bear. But as far as a handgun, I was totally against it until I shared this experience with other classmates.

So, for those of you who are against having a concealed carry permit, don't be so quick to judge until you have been in a situation such as I have.

Isn't this the kid who shot himself after the shooting spree?

I saw it on the news a few minutes ago.


EDIT::;WOW J!
In a hostage situation!You do have courage J in so many ways I never knew.
I am sure I would have been a basket after an incident like that.

We did have a girl or two who was a basket case after that. As a matter of fact, when we went on our mental health rotation to a state mental institution she could not even go in. You see, in that hospital you are behind locked doors, MANY locked doors. It affected her in ways I cannot comprehend.

That experience may, now that I look back, be why I am choosing the mental health field for my specialty.

Until I was in a hostage situation myself back in 2003.

Tell the truth J, this was your jilted boyfriend looking to avenge his undying love for you but in the end he got what they all get... a shot in the a#*!

Tell the truth J, this was your jilted boyfriend looking to avenge his undying love for you but in the end he got what they all get...a shot in the a#*!

Yeah, right. Actually Mag, I can deal with you most of the time, but going what I went through, what you said here was not even funny.

I know your dry sense of humor and 99.9% of the time I laugh at it, but this was just a little to low for you.

Might as well laugh as cry. But you are right, that was low. I'm sorry.

No apology really necessary, well yeah, maybe a little one.

Dang dude, you know I laugh more than I cry.

Now get back on the little bus with the rest of us.

I'm already on the little bus!

I still love you Mag. But maybe if I were allowed to give the dude a shot in the A$$ the situation may not have lasted as long as it did. A little Haldol could have calmed the situation quite quickly. But I was only taking my prerequisites then, algebra.

Now, here, put your helmet on before I hurt you.

I thought he lived and ended up in the nut house?

Nope not this guy. He held us hostage for over 9 hours, then he shot 2 shots in the air, that's when the swat team got him from a window of the Glover Building (where I attend classes now).

He was very apologetic as he kept us hostage, he was very kind and well spoken. Even ordered us pizzas and cokes. But was disturbed nonetheless. You could tell it just from his eyes, from his mannerisms, from his speech. It was really eerie. I never again want to experience something like that.

Oh my! You were one of the hostages then. I didn't realize. That is scary. Well, I'm glad thing worked out relatively well for most involved. He was a sick man I'm sure. Again though, he didn't get his way and went off. Happening a lot lately isn't it?

Oh my! You were one of the hostages then.

Yes Mag, that's why I said you gave a low blow earlier.

LOL, Didn't you read my post? Yes, I was there, in that classroom in the Eller Building on the 2nd floor. That building is now only administration.

It's happening a lot, but what do we do? Now you see why I am proactive in protecting myself. Had I been given the opportunity to protect myself 4 years ago, this would have ended in less than 9 hours. But... how does anyone know that I am the sane one? We are caught in a Catch 22 situation here. Stricter gun laws restrict those of us who are sane and who are scared of the Kilpatricks of the world (the guy in my situation), yet do nothing for the thugs who get their weapons illegally.

Stricter gun laws will NOT stop the thugs from getting their firearms from black market dealers, but WILL make it harder for me to protect myself in the future.

After that experience I will never go unarmed again. I saw too many people hurt that day, physically and/or mentally.

J_9 clearly and as expected you are a responsibly gun owner who educates her family perfectly on the dangers of guns. I'm sure there are many many others like you. Unfortunately for you guys in the US , people like you aren't the problem. Its those who don't take the responsibility of a gun as seriously as you do. Yet under your law these people can get a gun as easily as you can. Now why is that? Does that not seem absurd to you? It does to me.

Obviously given the Constitution in the US and how vehemently most of you guys oppose the abolishment of the 'right to bear arms' amendment there will never be a day when citizens being able to carry a gun are outlawed. But none of you even seem to acknowledge that the system you have at present isn't working. It can't be. There are countless examples of a system that is failing. Sure there are no doubt positives but I see the negatives of guns to far outweigh these positives.

But that's me and 'im from a different culture.

I'm sorry to hear of your hostage situation J_9. How horrible. I'm glad you were released from this hostage situation relatively unscathed and unharmed. Do you think that if you had a gun at that time you would have used it? Do you think that perhaps if you had used it people would not have been released unharmed. Could it have resulted in death to either you or your class mates. My thought would be that the answer to that is yes. But id obviously prefer to hear you answer?

Ands just as you have become proactive in protecting yourself and choose to carry a gun, many in the world who go through a situation like you did choose to become active in the anti gun movement. In Australia we had the Port Arthur massacre which instigated a massive overhaul of our gun laws. Many survivors and relatives of the victims were active campaigners against guns. They seen it as the weapon that killed their loved one. Not as a weapon they could use yo protect themselves from it happening again.

Ok... or we could get on the fact that my friend has a gun and she let me borrow it... "for hunting" and then what... You know. Really, I can go both ways cause there are great points on both sides. I just know we can all trust the fact that with or with out a gun... if someone wants to carry through... they WILL.. Yes, sometimes it is only done when the opportunity or when the tool is available... But all I really need to do is go down town and ask around... AND they didn't buy it legally so where do we go from there? How can you stop that?

I don't know how you stop it start but my choice wouldn't be give them to everyone. But that's just me.

As you say there is arguments both ways and for me I think the difference I our cultures is the big ticket issue. I, and most I know just can't grasp the US's stance and attitudes to guns like I'm sure you can't imagine living in a country where you aren't allowed to walk down the street with a gun in your purse!

I can imagine it... not quite sure I agree with it...
I have to say this just one more time...
"I value our differences"
I also like to feel safe if I can. And knowing that anyone could get a farkin gun ilegally, makes me feel like carrying one legally to protect myself. That is for sure!

Yet under your law these people can get a gun as easily as you can. Now why is that? Does that not seem absurd to you? It does to me.


Please excuse me, but I am exhausted, but I will try to address your concerns one by one

The above... Most states have strict laws that we have to pass background checks. If we have committed any sort of crime, then we are not able to get a gun. Unfortunately, some fall through the cracks.

To get a gun legally you cannot have committed a crime such as domestic violence, drug charges, heck, even if you are in therapy for mental illness. Yet, most people never get caught with drugs, women/men rarely report domestic violence, hell, how many people really get help for mental illness? And I am just naming a few.


But none of you even seem to acknowledge that the system you have at present isnt working.

I beg to differ with you here. We know that the "system" isn't working. But how do we better it? You make gun control laws tougher and it is just hurting us ordinary citizens. Doesn't do anything to the "thugs." Yet those of us who are educated are blamed. Don't say that you don't blame people like me for the problems. I have seen it time and time again in the past 4 years.

Those of you who have not been a victim of a crime of this magnitude have no idea what it is like to be on the other side of barrel. And until you have been in the same place we have you have no right to say anything otherwise.

Look, as I said in the other post, people have been killing each other for centuries, a gun just makes it easier. So, you blame the gun. I blame society. I blame people for not understanding and treating mental illness as it should be treated. Like heart disease, kidney disease. It's all an illness nonetheless.

Just because we haven't been in hostage situation or the other side of the barrel should not mean we can't comment on guns! That's ridiculous! Its like saying just because you've never played football you can't have an opinion. Sorry for your situation J_9 but it doesn't make your opinion any more valid than the next!

You are one of the very few countries in the western world who consider having tougher gun control laws will lead to more crime. You think that it will make you all susceptible to the bad guys. Ive lived in some of the most dangerous parts of Sydney, one of the most dangerous cities in the world. Ive never ever felt the need for a gun or wanted one. I kept myself safe through common sense and knowing where and when isn't a good time to be somewhere.

Citizens in most other countries in the world get by without a gun quite finely. It doesn't make the thugs more dangerous and prevalent.

So you say the system isn't working but how do you better? Change the system. Perhaps take a leaf out of some other nations and see what other options there are. Don't just sit by and watch massacre after massacre and put it down to mental illness and put no blame on the gun. That would be my solution but it will get howled down!

I'm surprised that when there are these "gun" incidents, the issue of violence, and lack of respect for life in the media is not brought up.


Its in movies, videogames, music lyrics. Weapons are used flipantly, and killing is part of the goal. Then the news media lends credence to this by 24-7 coverage of and incident and allowing the thoughts of the killers to get center stage.


Why do people question the 2nd amendment, when part of the cause lies with the media?

As to driving a car, that is a privilege not a constitutionally protected right.

The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
You have to be able to defend the first two.




Grace and Peace

Citizens in most other countries in the world get by without a gun quite finely. It doesnt make the thugs more dangerous and prevalent.

So you say the system isnt working but how do you better? Change the system. Perhaps take a leaf out of some other nations and see what other options there are. Dont just sit by and watch massacre after massacre and put it down to mental illness and put no blame on the gun. That would be my solution but it will get howled down!

Where I live citizens/civilians do not carry/ cannot carry firearms.
Only the police/military carry them and only when on duty.

We never used to think twice about being out and about any time of the day.
I have seen a huge change in our community though.
In the recent years there has been a surge in drug use/abuse and this has led to a lot of robberies at knife point or bag snatching incidents or even stabbing incidents among the users and/or passerby.

I would still not want the citizens to carry a gun in my community,it would scare me because of the fact that we are not as a community used to having them and also knowing many I think the respect for firearms is non-existent here.
And to boot most youngsters idolise the gun toting actor/actress depicted in the movies.

I am not sure how I would feel in the future,but at the moment I feel better knowing that my neighbour does not carry a gun and in the evnt he/she is mad at me will not confront me with it.

Update 14 year old had mental problems

Student gunman had mental problems - Crime & Punishment - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21243671/)

SO, how did the system fail if he had a history of violents acts and mental problems.

Update 14 year old had mental problems

Student gunman had mental problems - Crime & Punishment - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21243671/)

SO, how did the system fail if he had a history of violents acts and mental problems.

Good question. It seems to be failing regularly yet according to many there is nothing wrong with the system. Go figure...

Where I live citizens/civilians do not carry/ cannot carry firearms.
Only the police/military carry them and only when on duty.

We never used to think twice about being out and about any time of the day.
I have seen a huge change in our community though.
In the recent years there has been a surge in drug use/abuse and this has led to a lot of robberies at knife point or bag snatching incidents or even stabbing incidents among the users and/or passerby.

I would still not want the citizens to carry a gun in my community,it would scare me because of the fact that we are not as a community used to having them and also knowing many I think the respect for firearms is non-existent here.
And to boot most youngsters idolise the gun toting actor/actress depicted in the movies.

I am not sure how I would feel in the future,but at the moment I feel better knowing that my neighbour does not carry a gun and in the evnt he/she is mad at me will not confront me with it.

So do I firm! :)

[QUOTE=
I am not sure how I would feel in the future,but at the moment I feel better knowing that my neighbour does not carry a gun and in the evnt he/she is mad at me will not confront me with it.[/QUOTE]

Ok... but would you be comfy knowing your neighbor carries an illegal gun? Cause a person getting one illegally, I suppose, may be more dangerous than me carrying one.

Ok...but would you be comfy knowing your neighbor carries an illegal gun? Cause a person getting one illegally, I suppose, may be more dangerous than me carrying one.You guys bring that argument up evry time but it just doesn't seem to happen here. People aren't killing people with illegal handguns at the rate that they are in the U.S. nowhere near that rate! Where are they buying these illegal handguns anyway? At your corner store?

No in my shed behind my house... I mean not mine... but the neighbors. I argue that I can't stop these STUPID people from buying a gun... so I will be protected from them if need be! That is so simple and just because you guys don't have the same problem as the U.S. just shows that you don't have the same concerns so your view is for yours and mine is for mine. If I lived where it was "gunless" then yes, I would steer closer to your opinion.

You guys bring that argument up evry time but it just doesn't seem to happen here. People aren't killing people with illegal handguns at the rate that they are in the U.S., nowhere near that rate! Where are they buying these illegal handguns anyway? At your corner store?

Same here. It must just be in the US because I've never seen a gun other than in policeman's holster.

I think the problem is that because the gun culture is so entrenched and embedded in peoples minds that they can't imagine a place where people don't have guns and they aren't in every second persons handbag.

Sure there are illegal guns floating around but nowhere near the rate that you seem to imagine. I would bet all the tea in china that no one in my street owns a gun. In fact I would go as far to say that of all the people I know none of them owns a gun or have ever owned a gun.

It's a fear thing it seems. You think that if you give up your gun all the bad guys are going to come out and shoot you all down. The thing is if they wanted to shoot you down they would now. You know why, because they're bad guys. They don't care if you got to gun because they got one too and they want to use it.

No in my shed behind my house....I mean not mine...but the neighbors. I argue that I can't stop these STUPID people from buying a gun...so I will be protected from them if need be! That is so simple and just because you guys don't have the same problem as the U.S. just shows that you don't have the same concerns so your view is for yours and mine is for mine. If I lived where it was "gunless" then yes, I would steer closer to your opinion.

That's fair enough Start. And please don't take this the wrong way but I really do feel sorry for you and the citizens of the US that are that scared they feel they need a gun. I really am sorry about that. It must be horrible.

Thats fair enough Start. And please dont take this the wrong way but i really do feel sorry for you and the citizens of the US that are that scared they feel they need a gun. I really am sorry about that. It must be horrible.
And I am jealous of your security. And I just really need to make it clear that I do not sell guns in the shed behind my house... LOL:D
EDIT... and Skell... If I walked down the road I bet you ten bucks every fifth house I go to is a gun owners house. Given the fact that we live in the country... but if I were in the city and people would actually admit they had one... I bet it would be the same! 1 in 6 maybe 7 maybe...
Everone I know... (almost) owns a gun... Wow... pretty shocking huh?

And I am jealous of your security. nd I just really need to make it clear that I do not sell guns in the shed behind my house...LOL:D
EDIT....and Skell....If i walked down the road I bet you ten bucks every fifth house i go to is a gun owners house. Given the fact that we live in the country...but if I were in the city and people would actually admit they had one....I bet it would be the same! 1 in 6 maybe 7 maybe.....
Everone I know...(almost) owns a gun...Wow...pretty shocking huh?

Its pretty scary for someone like me looking from the outside in yeah, But that's me on the outside. I suppose for you guys its just part of life and what makes the world a different place. Its part of your culture and by the looks of it I don't imagine it will change anytime soon.

Ill no where to some next tim I'm in the US and need a gun. Starts back shed.:D

Its pretty scary for someone like me looking from the outside in yeah, But thats me on the outside. I suppose for you guys its just part of life and what makes the world a different place. Its part of your culture and by the looks of it i dont imagine it will change anytime soon.

Ill no where to some next tim im in the US and need a gun. Starts back shed.:D
Grrr... :D

You guys bring that argument up evry time but it just doesn't seem to happen here. People aren't killing people with illegal handguns at the rate that they are in the U.S., nowhere near that rate! Where are they buying these illegal handguns anyway? At your corner store?


Apparently guns and crime are a problem in Canada:
Government of Ontario, Canada - News (http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/2007/06/10/c2957.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html)


Data from the FBI and the uniform crime report:
NRA-ILA :: Articles (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=209#FABLE%20IV:)


Gun control does not necessarily prevent crimes:
England and Wales top crime league | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited (http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,441810,00.html)
"Canada, Scotland, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, France and America are medium crime countries where between 20% and 24% are crime victims each year."

And a different point of view:
A Case for Gun Control (http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zj5j-gttl/guns.htm)
"Hand grip ID tagging. This is technologically probably still in the future, but it would be a good goal to work for. The theory is, each gun is "registered" to one's person palm prints (the legal purchaser of the gun), and only that person can fire that gun. If another person tries, the gun simply will not fire. Thus, stolen guns become useless, and cannot be used to harm anybody in the course of a crime."



Sad thing about the Cleaveland shootings is that the kid forewarned people and the principal and even though the school had metal detectors, they were not used regularly.
Stupidity.
Investigators seek motive for Ohio school shooting - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-10-school-shooting_N.htm)







Grace and Peace

About guns not being the only weapon.

Where I live I am more scared of walking out on the street at night, because every other person is speeding.

A few days ago a guy of about 21 years,ran a stop light and took a wrong turn, he skidded,flew of his bike and landed on some parked vehicles.He passed away the same night.And this seems to be on the rise in my community.
Those give me nightmares more than guns(as guns are never seen/used by civillians legally or illegally)


As Skell said, it is different in different cultures I guess.

Apparently guns and crime are a problem in Canada:
Government of Ontario, Canada - News (http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/2007/06/10/c2957.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html)
99% of that crime is in Toronto, and it's done by immigrant Jamaican gangs. There's a reason why I don't live there. I've had two lucrative job offers in T.O. but turned them both down. Having been in Montreal most of my life and seen a lot of friends move to Toronto I know all about it. Same for anyone choosing to live in the Bronx or Harlem or Detroit or South Central L.A.



Data from the FBI and the uniform crime report:
NRA-ILA :: Articles (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=209#FABLE%20IV:)
Hehe, I know I'm not supposed to harp on the source but it's from the NRA, LOL! That's like wanting to have rabbit stew and calling PETA to get their opinion on it. Anyway that article has nothing to do with Canada or the canadian mentality; it's focused on the americans believing that owning guns is a constitutional right damnit! I believe that we have less violent crime because we have less desperate people here.