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http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2185780,00.html

Five killed in Wisconsin shooting

Staff and agencies
Sunday October 7, 2007
Guardian Unlimited


At least five people were killed today in a shooting in the US state of Wisconsin, county officials said.

The shooting happened in the north-east Wisconsin city of Crandon, which is located 392 km (225 miles) north of Milwaukee, the state's largest city.

A witness told local radio station WTMJ that the shooting happened just before 3am local time (9am BST).

"It's a pretty tragic situation here," said Forest County supervisor Tom Vollmar. "There are five or six people dead."

The neighbourhood where the shooting happened has been blocked off, Mr Vollmar said.

The town has a population of about 2,000.
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Are there any members from Wisconsin?

I am not in Wisconsin, but an adjoining state. That makes at least two major shootings in Wisconsin in the last six months or so.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3699921


CRANDON, Wis. Oct 7, 2007 (AP)

A local law enforcement employee went on a shooting rampage early Sunday in remote northern Wisconsin, killing at least five people, authorities said.

Crandon Police Chief John Dennee, speaking outside the police department about two blocks from the shooting site, would not say whether the suspect was dead. But he said: "We're not looking for anybody anymore."

A dispatcher for the State Patrol who declined to give his full name as a matter of department practice said several of the patrol's officers went to Forest County to help investigators because the suspect is an employee of the Forest County Sheriff's Department and a part-time officer for the Crandon Police Department.

"It's a pretty tragic situation here," said Forest County Supervisor Tom Vollmar, who lives just outside Crandon, a city of about 2,000 people. "There are five or six people dead."

The State Patrol and the Crandon Fire Department detoured a steady stream of traffic from two blocks of U.S. Highway 8 in the downtown area. Some residents stood in nearby front yards.

The northeast Wisconsin town is about 225 miles north of Milwaukee. The area is known for logging, and fishing, hunting and snowmobiling.

I did hear about the previous shooting,but do not remember the details of that one.

That's why everyone should carry guns. So they can shoot the shooter before he gets them..
Don't you agree??

No either do I. But many people do. They think carrying a gun should be compulsory.

Crazy. Gun violence in the US is out of control and they do nothing about it. Something to do with the Constitution and an amendment..

I don't believe in carrying guns. I do like to use guns for only sport, though. But, not the kinds of guns that shoot actual bullets. I am not a hunter of living things. But, I do like to shoot targets that aren't living.

I would have to agree that gun violence is out of control in the U.S. and that little is done about it.

If you have time to call the police because there is someone with a gun attacking you, that would be your last call, you would be dead before the police even get there.

I believe that one must protect themselves, armed themselves against stupid people who uses a gun to promote violence.

People kill people, a gun is the tool they use.

Yes I own guns for sport , hunting and protection, everyone should own a gun to protect themselves, because the police cannot.

I wish this I could give you a greenie Mr. Yet. I have to agree wholeheartedly with every word you said.

Oh lord.

Some idiot goes crazy and kills people, and people are blaming the GUN?

Get real!

It's really a tragedy--I've been to Crandon several times. But it was a POLICE OFFICER that did it! So... taking guns away from the general public would have done NOTHING to prevent this tragedy.

People have been killing people from the beginning of time. They used clubs, knives, whatever they can get their hands on.

It wasn't the "gun" that killed these people, it was the lunatic holding the gun. The firearm cannot fire on it's own. It needs someone to pull the trigger. That boy would have committed this crime whether he had a gun. He would have found some other way.

I live in the city with the highest crime rate in America. You think I'm NOT going to protect myself and my family. You got to be kidding.

Oh lord.

Some idiot goes crazy and kills people, and people are blaming the GUN?

Get real!

It's really a tragedy--I've been to Crandon several times. But it was a POLICE OFFICER that did it! So...taking guns away from the general public would have done NOTHING to prevent this tragedy.

Synn,
I read that in the news too.
Is it true?

There have been A LOT of videos surfacing lately about police brutality. Something is wrong with the system there in the US.

About gun control: I feel a lot safer here in Canada.

Here is another article from the shooting. An off duty deputy sheriff. May not ever know why he shot the people, as he was shot, possibly by a sniper, possibly by law enforcement.
Midcontinent Communications: MidcoNet - News (http://www.midco.net/news/read.php?ps=1018&id=15548849&_LT=HOME_LARSDCCL1_UNEWS)

I will agree with others who said it is not the gun but the one holding the gun. Taking away my gun would not keep peace. More gun laws would not work either. There are always ways to obtain firearms.

I have heard (not sure if it is true) in Australia you can buy the different parts to assemble and make a gun,but not purchase a whole gun!?

Thanks for the link Shy.

Yes... the lunatic holding the gun should be responsible for this awful awful tragedy
I own guns, we hardley use them for sport, and we don't hunt but I tell you what, someone tried to get my babies or me, they are going to go down trying. Do I need to post my pic J? These people, I wonder if their friends and family had honest feelings about them before these things happened. Let us take in concideration, there are people we run across and we just know they are capable of doing things, but think it is just a matter of time. Should we work harder to bring these thoughts and feelings to the surface so we can stop some of these messes before they come? Does that make sense?

It's a known fact that half of the poulation is insane. Ask any professional working in Psychiatry. The reason I took an early retirement from federal law enforcement was due to all the young, gun ho nuts coming on board. In just a few months, after desert storm, one blew his brains out, another shot himself in the gut, another nearly beat a hooker to death. It was something different every month. You got to be out there to see it first hand though. Just watching the news doesn't show the full scope of the real problems.
The federal government have indoctrinated the local law enforcement folks into this homeland security hype in which they are trained (brainwashed) that all U.S. citizens, have the potential to be terrorist. Hence the rise in police brutality. The kid that went off in Wisconsin was mentally unstable from the get go. That happens a lot in small towns where the police recruiting standards are not as stringent as in larger cities. Everyone there knew him since grade school and thought he was an OK guy. They were not qualified to make that call.
I now live in a small town in Idaho and I see the same thing happening here. Every so often a cop goes off and does something really crazy. He wasn't screened properly and got through the cracks in their small town system.

Everyone there knew him since grade school and thought he was an OK guy. They were not qualified to make that call.


I guess my question would be this... do you think that someone around him knew that there may have been a problem and should they have stepped in before there was this mess?

WE think just because someone has a badge that they are normal, sometimes that is the farthest thing from the truth.. I am sure that it happens more often than we want to realize. Maybe not with shootings, but with domestic abuse, substance abuse and even rapists or pedophiles. Being a cop still means you are human. Even when they take precautions, people are capable of putting on a good show, until they literally lose their mind and do something like this...
Isn't it usually the most random person, who everyone thought was kind of a loner but OK, that turns around and unleashes their wrath on some poor innoncent people? It seems that way doesn't it?
Magprob, good thing you got out of that! I am sure that many do seem brainwashed and of course dealing with murderers, thieves and crazy people can get to you after awhile!

Magprob, good thing you got out of that! I am sure that many do seem brainwashed and of course dealing with murderers, thieves and crazy people can get to you after awhile!!

Yea, now I'm crazy.

There are those lunatics out there and perhaps law enforcement draws them because of the authority. There was a man who worked in the city where I moved from, who was a prison guard, became a probation officer, and thought he was God on earth. He manufactured evidence, boarded up his daughter's bedroom windows so she could not break curfew, planted drugs on the very people he was supervising their parole, beat his first wife when she was 8 months pregnant, pulled a gun on his second wife when she decided she had had enough and shot her. The man was as unbalanced as a teeter totter. But he was allowed to resign and relocate. He moved to Idaho where he was able to get back into the prison system and works as a guard. Scary, isn't it?

Don't go to prison in Idaho! Some of the nuttiest people I have ever known are prison guards. Was it Churchill that said, "If you want to meet the scum of the earth, be at any prison during shift change."

There are those lunatics out there and perhaps law enforcement draws them because of the authority. There was a man who worked in the city where I moved from, who was a prison guard, became a probation officer, and thought he was God on earth. He manufactured evidence, boarded up his daughter's bedroom windows so she could not break curfew, planted drugs on the very people he was supervising their parole, beat his first wife when she was 8 months pregnant, pulled a gun on his second wife when she decided she had had enough and shot her. The man was as unbalanced as a teeter totter. But he was allowed to resign and relocate. He moved to Idaho where he was able to get back into the prison system and works as a guard. Scary, isn't it?

That story gives me the shivers... scary is the right word.

I thought my comment on the gun would get you all going. It always does. I'm certainly not blaming the gun. Responsibility rests with the killer. No doubt.

BUt I still can't agree with those of you who think more guns are the answer. It's a sad indictment on the place you live that most of you feel you need a gun to live safely. Ive never laid my hands on one and I can still go to sleep at night with the doors unlocked. Im sorry the rest of you guys don't have that feeling of safety that I enjoy.

Yes I own guns for sport , hunting and protection, everyone should own a gun to protect themselves, because the police cannot.

How sad you guys have no trust in your police. I feel sorry for you. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way.

I thought my comment on the gun would get you all going. It always does. I'm certainly not blaming the gun. Responsibility rests with the killer. No doubt.

BUt I still can't agree with those of you who think more guns are the answer. It's a sad indictment on the place you live that most of you feel you need a gun to live safely. Ive never laid my hands on one and I can still go to sleep at night with the doors unlocked. Im sorry the rest of you guys don't have that feeling of safety that I enjoy.
You echo my sentiments exactly Skell. Well said.

I wish this I could give you a greenie Mr. Yet. I have to agree wholeheartedly with every word you said.

Yes, more guns are the answer.

Oh lord.

Some idiot goes crazy and kills people, and people are blaming the GUN?

Get real!

It's really a tragedy--I've been to Crandon several times. But it was a POLICE OFFICER that did it! So...taking guns away from the general public would have done NOTHING to prevent this tragedy.

Sorry Synn. I posted my comment before it was reported as being a police officer. It still won't convince me though that giving everyone a gun will solve things.

How sad you guys have no trust in your police. I feel sorry for you. And i dont mean that in a derogatory way.Actually they should not feel trust in their police, the abuses of power are rampant. Goes back to that state of fear being pushed onto the populace.

People have been killing people from the beginning of time. They used clubs, knives, whatever they can get their hands on.

It wasn't the "gun" that killed these people, it was the lunatic holding the gun. The firearm cannot fire on it's own. It needs someone to pull the trigger. That boy would have committed this crime whether or not he had a gun. He would have found some other way.

I live in the city with the highest crime rate in America. You think I'm NOT going to protect myself and my family. You gotta be kidding.

I beg to differ. Do you actually think this boy would have bashed or knifed all those people to death??

As I said its sad that in the States there is no trust in the police that you feel the need to arm yourself to protect you. Im sorry for that!!

Actually they should not feel trust in their police, the abuses of power are rampant. Goes back to that state of fear being pushed onto the populace.

Fair point. Im not up to date with all police abuse stories over there but surely it is a minority only? We have abuse issues here at times and I'm sure you guys in Canada do too but it doesn't waive my trust in the majority of police. Ours are primarily upstanding citizens who do a fine job and I'm glad I can put my trust in them and not a gun!

Actually--I know good cops and bad cops, and have heard more than a few stories about the bad from people I know personally.

My sister, for example, was pulled over one night. She had a teething infant in the back seat, and was tired, but had not broken any laws.

The officer proceeded to ask her to step from the car and frisked her, making lewd gestures and basically groping her everywhere, then let her go with a "warning" that next time she wouldn't get off so easily.

No cameras, of course.

She reported it the next day, and was told that if she pursued it, she would be essentially be taken to court and made to look like a liar because no one would doubt the word of the "fine, upstanding officers on our force".

The reason I have a gun is because some day our government will go too far. That's when the revolution will happen, and at least I'll be armed with SOMETHING against the troops they send against me. THAT is why there IS a second amendment.

So no--more guns won't make it any better. But neither will FEWER guns.

I thought my comment on the gun would get you all going. It always does. I'm certainly not blaming the gun. Responsibility rests with the killer. No doubt.

BUt i still can't agree with those of you who think more guns are the answer. Its a sad indictment on the place you live that most of you feel you need a gun to live safely. Ive never laid my hands on one and i can still go to sleep at night with the doors unlocked. Im sorry the rest of you guys don't have that feeling of safety that i enjoy.

I have to ask that if someone came into your home and proceeded to kill and hurt your family or yourself, would you still want to leave your doors unlocked and not have had a gun to get him/her before they got to you? More guns are not the answer, not letting the wrong people get to them is... none of us will ever be happy... I guess we are getting off subject here...
Edit:::: Hey Skell, I used to keep our doors unlocked till the next door lady got a big scare with her life and a robbery. I had to add that cause I think it is sad that people don't feel safe too sweet... I really do!

Start,
It is not getting off topic...

This is in member discussion, so I guess it could go anywhere in connection to the shooting.

As I stated before... I live very close to the city that has the highest crime rate in the country. I choose to protect myself.

Before you people who are totally against guns tell me to move... Moving is NOT an option at the moment. Yes, I would love to move to get away from it, but currently I have no choice.

If crazy ole Bubba or Tookie comes to my house in the middle of the night with a gun and my children are in harms way... You better bet your A$$ I am going to protect myself. The police where I live, basically Mayberry, will make it here after my children and I have been shot to death. I refuse to let Barney Fife and his deputies in my small community even think they can protect me, because I know they can't.

Why do I know they can't? Because my husband is a master gunsmith in our community, not many left in the country, they (the local police (?) come to him to have their firearms repaired and/or maintained. They don't have firing pins, they have a 8mm cal gun with 357 cal bullets. You can bet your Arse I'm going to protect myself.

They don't know the difference between a semi-auto and an automatic.

I don't choose to live here, but I don't have the choice to get out right now. So, do I protect myself or rely on Barney who doesn't know a revolver from the hole in his Arse?

I thought my comment on the gun would get you all going. It always does. I'm certainly not blaming the gun. Responsibility rests with the killer. No doubt.

BUt i still can't agree with those of you who think more guns are the answer. Its a sad indictment on the place you live that most of you feel you need a gun to live safely. Ive never laid my hands on one and i can still go to sleep at night with the doors unlocked. Im sorry the rest of you guys don't have that feeling of safety that i enjoy.

I'd really like to take issue with you on that but at the moment I'm beating my head against a Eucyliptis tree and it feels really nice, thank you very much.

As I stated before....I live very close to the city that has the highest crime rate in the country. I choose to protect myself.

Before you people who are totally against guns tell me to move.....Moving is NOT an option at the moment. Yes, I would love to move to get away from it, but currently I have no choice.

If crazy ole Bubba or Tookie comes to my house in the middle of the night with a gun and my children are in harms way....You better bet your A$$ I am going to protect myself. The police where I live, basically Mayberry, will make it here after my children and I have been shot to death. I refuse to let Barney Fife and his deputies in my small community even think they can protect me, because I know they can't.

Why do I know they can't? Because my husband is a master gunsmith in our community, not many left in the country, they (the local police (?) come to him to have their firearms repaired and/or maintained. They don't have firing pins, they have a 8mm cal gun with 357 cal bullets. You can bet your Arse I'm gonna protect myself.

They don't know the difference between a semi-auto and an automatic.

I don't choose to live here, but I don't have the choice to get out right now. So, do I protect myself or rely on Barney who doesn't know a revolver from the hole in his Arse?

Tookie? Tookie? I'd like a little Tookie!

The reason I have a gun is because some day our government will go too far. That's when the revolution will happen, and at least I'll be armed with SOMETHING against the troops they send against me. THAT is why there IS a second amendment.

So no--more guns won't make it any better. But neither will FEWER guns.

Many people will say that has happened already.. :)

I respect that decision but do you honestly think a gun is going to protect you against the might of the US military? Is that the reason you really have a gun. So one day when neded you can use it against your Government?

That view is shared by many isn't it? I have to admit that it is quite difficult for me to grasp but obviously is a popularly held belief in the US. It just shows that even those in the Western world have quite different cultural beliefs.

I have to ask that if someone came into your home and proceeded to kill and hurt your family or yourself, would you still want to leave your doors unlocked and not have had a gun to get him/her before they got to you? More guns are not the answer, not letting the wrong people get to them is....none of us will ever be happy......I guess we are getting off subject here....
Edit:::: Hey Skell, I used to keep our doors unlocked till the next door lady got a big scare with her life and a robbery. I had to add that cause i think it is sad that people don't feel safe too sweet....I really do!

If someone came in and killed my family and me it would be too late to lock the doors. Just as it would be too late to go to my closet, unlock the safe, unlock the other safe where the ammunition is, load the gun and then work out how to shoot someone.

To me it is simply a matter that having a gun would not make me feel safer. In fact if I had a family it would make me feel more uneasy then anything.

And I will admit that the doors do get locked at night time now, but locking the doors still won't stop someone coming in and hurting me and my family. Just like owning a gun won't stop it either.

As I stated before....I live very close to the city that has the highest crime rate in the country. I choose to protect myself.

Before you people who are totally against guns tell me to move.....Moving is NOT an option at the moment. Yes, I would love to move to get away from it, but currently I have no choice.

If crazy ole Bubba or Tookie comes to my house in the middle of the night with a gun and my children are in harms way....You better bet your A$$ I am going to protect myself. The police where I live, basically Mayberry, will make it here after my children and I have been shot to death. I refuse to let Barney Fife and his deputies in my small community even think they can protect me, because I know they can't.

Why do I know they can't? Because my husband is a master gunsmith in our community, not many left in the country, they (the local police (?) come to him to have their firearms repaired and/or maintained. They don't have firing pins, they have a 8mm cal gun with 357 cal bullets. You can bet your Arse I'm gonna protect myself.

They don't know the difference between a semi-auto and an automatic.

I don't choose to live here, but I don't have the choice to get out right now. So, do I protect myself or rely on Barney who doesn't know a revolver from the hole in his Arse?

That's fair enough.

Can I ask where you keep your gun J?

I'd really like to take issue with you on that but at the moment I'm beating my head against a Eucyliptis tree and it feels really nice, thank you very much.

Just be careful that Koala doesn't fall out of it and land on your head. You know those things are the size of polar bears. They're Australia's biggest killer behind knife wielding maniacs named Mick! :)

And Ned.

Actually---it is, Skell. I have a gun because I truly believe that someday I will have to rise up against my government. I may be mostly sane most of the time, but I'm truly paranoid about my government, and believe about half of the conspiracy theories out there about it (George Bush, Sr. shooting Kennedy, anyone?).

I live in a big city, but I'm in a good neighborhood, in a secured building, where I see the cops go by at least every hour. Of course, the cop shop is down the road about 4 blocks, so that's no real surprise.

Have I been scared for my life against someone breaking in? Nope. Not yet. But I have a funny feeling that someday I'll be glad that I know how to clean, load, and shoot a gun.

The funny thing about it is that I was born into a family of hunters... my gun is a 20-gauge shotgun. I was taught to shoot to put food on the table (yes, my family has always eaten what we've killed), not necessarily for sport or for the thrill of the kill. While there was a gun cabinet (locked, with ammo elsewhere) in my house as a kid, I was taught that guns are not for fun, but are something to be treated with the utmost respect, because they could KILL someone. My dad also pointed out when we were learning to shoot that you don't want to kill someone if you don't have to--but if you have to, don't hesitate, either. When it's a choice between your life and theirs, to make a choice and commend it to God.

The problem with guns is not that people want them, or that people kill with them. The problem is that people are so CASUAL about them, in the wrong sort of way. They're not part of everyday life because you need it for food, or because you enjoy hunting. They're part of everyday life because every day we hear about another person killed by one, another kid who accidentally shot one because his parents were stupid and didn't teach their children about the kind of tool a gun is, and when and how it should be used.

They'll put their kid in seatbelts, and bike helmets, and kneepads and jock straps and on birth control, but they won't teach their kids about guns, probably because so many parents these days don't know much themselves. A gun is a tool, like a chainsaw is a tool. You can hurt someone badly or kill with either one, but they can both also be used to help you do something more than just senseless killing.

And Ned.

He's a national hero!!

Syn,

You make a lot of reasonable points and although it will wake more for me to be convinced I respect what you say. I just find it hard to grasp. Different cultures.

Perhaps if I lived in the US I too would feel like most of you, but down here I don't. And 95% of the population agree with me. Although 95% of the population down here also would love to rise up against Bush as well. But we are going to do that by changing our government come the Federal Election in December. :)

Better investigation of people responsible for trying to protect the community is needed, not gun control. Brainwashing the police and others since 9/11 that everyone is a possible terrorist is wrong. I am not a terrorist, I have a law abiding human being who will protect my family and myself. Now let's make the true people responsible for their action, criminals.



The gun control advocates are nuts. Enacting laws to control guns only affect people that abide by the law. The people that are committing the crimes with guns could not care less that there's a "gun control" law that they're breaking. It's the least of the laws they're breaking. If these idiots really want to control the criminals that use guns to commit crimes, they should encourage every citizen to carry a concealed firearm. I fight crime. I shoot back.

"If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." I mean, it's a cheesy bumper sticker, but it's true. When a criminal wants a gun, they don't walk down to the gun store, wait 3 days, and get a semi-automatic rifle. They get an illegal AK from someone of questionable morals. Period. Gun control laws limit citizens not criminals.

Washingtonians are not stupid. We are aware that gun laws have failed miserably wherever they have been tried. Anyone who knows how to visit the FBI Web site can tell you that the most dangerous places in the United States often are the places with the strictest gun laws. Gun laws overseas have been no more successful. Asking the Legislature to give us more is a colossal waste of time and an insult to our intelligence.

The concept of reducing violence by passing gun laws is a fallacy, as evidenced by several decades of failure. The only proven solution is to put criminals in prison and keep them there as long as you can. This is not a popular way to spend tax dollars; hence the opening for culture warriors to hijack the lawmaking process for their own ends.

I love reading these threads. It strenghtens my Canadian identity. I'm so happy to be here, not living my life in fear.

I love reading these threads. It strenghtens my Canadian identity. I'm so happy to be here, not living my life in fear.



Excellent hunting & Fishing in Canada! Simply the best!

Quiet now, it's our little secret. No cities here, just rural expanse.

Thats fair enough.

Can i ask where you keep your gun J?

Which one? LOL, I have many.

Most are in my gun safe, but one is hidden in a very safe place in my home. Another, when I have to go to the scary city of memphis is in my concealed carry purse.

I don't think, and I never said, MORE guns is the answer, it is not. Education is the key here.

And, yes, sadly I do think that boy would have used a knife, club, or some other weapon if he did not have access to a gun. He was mentally unstable as it was. He would have used anything he could have gotten his hands on.

The thing here is that you people don't see the good things that happen when a responsible gun owner saves the day. This happened a few miles from where I live.

Cordova Schnucks employee attacks seven co-workers (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1670415/posts)

Again, the answer is not MORE guns, but in EDUCATION.

J 9, if you are ever close to Maryland stop by and we will go target shooting, I have a place that is quite safe for practice.

Hey, if you are ever near Memphis I own the SWEETEST gun range in the south!!

Hey, if you are ever near Memphis I own the SWEETEST gun range in the south!!!


Next time I am down your way I will stop in, Do you have a Thompson 1928 available to shot?

Do you have a Thompson 1928 available to shot?

Haven't been in the shop in a while, but I believe we do.

Latest update on the shooting. He could not handle rejection and name calling

Deputy rebuffed before attack - Crime & Punishment - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21181488/)

I agree with one thing said at least... 20 years old is not old enough to be a cop...

Start, they send out guys to IRAQ at 18, because they are young and impressionable. IT is easier to get their minds brainwashed that way...
20 is too old to make hundreds of millions of dollars too, so what are we doing to our youth today??
Why do we put guns in our kids hands and expect them to be mature?

I know Shattered. Sure doesn't make any sense to me. I think you are right though. 18? 18? 18? An adult? Whoa... that is all I can say!

Actually---it is, Skell. I have a gun because I truly believe that someday I will have to rise up against my government. I may be mostly sane most of the time, but I'm truly paranoid about my government, and believe about half of the conspiracy theories out there about it (George Bush, Sr. shooting Kennedy, anyone?).

I live in a big city, but I'm in a good neighborhood, in a secured building, where I see the cops go by at least every hour. Of course, the cop shop is down the road about 4 blocks, so that's no real surprise.

Have I been scared for my life against someone breaking in? Nope. Not yet. But I have a funny feeling that someday I'll be glad that I know how to clean, load, and shoot a gun.

The funny thing about it is that I was born into a family of hunters...my gun is a 20-gauge shotgun. I was taught to shoot to put food on the table (yes, my family has always eaten what we've killed), not necessarily for sport or for the thrill of the kill. While there was a gun cabinet (locked, with ammo elsewhere) in my house as a kid, I was taught that guns are not for fun, but are something to be treated with the utmost respect, because they could KILL someone. My dad also pointed out when we were learning to shoot that you don't want to kill someone if you don't have to--but if you have to, don't hesitate, either. When it's a choice between your life and theirs, to make a choice and commend it to God.

The problem with guns is not that people want them, or that people kill with them. The problem is that people are so CASUAL about them, in the wrong sort of way. They're not part of everyday life because you need it for food, or because you enjoy hunting. They're part of everyday life because every day we hear about another person killed by one, another kid who accidently shot one because his parents were stupid and didn't teach their children about the kind of tool a gun is, and when and how it should be used.

They'll put their kid in seatbelts, and bike helmets, and kneepads and jock straps and on birth control, but they won't teach their kids about guns, probably because so many parents these days don't know much themselves. A gun is a tool, like a chainsaw is a tool. You can hurt someone badly or kill with either one, but they can both also be used to help you do something more than just senseless killing.

That gave me goosebumps!

Mag, it did me too. I have to be the first one to admit, I had a father that sat down at the table with me, he cleaned and made sure everything clicked and went smoothly with his guns. They were always off limits unless we went shooting also, I never wanted to test what would happen if I touched one without him around.
I will also admit that it is not the case with my kids. They have the pellet guns, airsoft and BB guns... (not the 6 and 4 year old) I am afraid to say that they are not educated as I was nor are they afraid... I am going to change that this very day. I felt like this for a long time and the guns for kids are gone... only special occasions do they come out and that will be with their parents to go shooting cans... One more Thank you to Synn for reminding me of this. Although it really sucks that I had to be!

Other way around with my kids - they will be nowhere near guns nor will we have any in our house.

That is a choice NK... I like that you are comfortable with yours.

I do agree with Synnen about guns being a tool, if children learned, understood and respected weapons early on, we wouldn't have them used in such foolish ways so often...
As citizens we have the right to bear arms, as we should. It doesn't mean we live in a society that will always obey the laws or not take advantage of them, but we cannot take away our rights because of crazy individuals who would kill, regardless of the weapon they choose.
I think it is interesting that we have so much violence in our culture, and sad. I am not sure where it originates, but I am sure having so many different walks of life living close together, creates the opportunity for conflict and discord. In other countries, there are usually only a few different kinds of races, ethnicities, but here there is anything and everything in between. Not to say living in the melting pot doesn't have its advantages. My children have learned that everyone is different, whether their cultures, religions, traditions or whatever..
The United States is just like every other country in the sense that is has positive and negative. We do have an ignorant administration running the country, we have been affected by it drastically, but there is change coming ahead. I will not only advocate for it, but I wll help be the change that needs to happen. WE can tear apart our country or we can build it up. WE can focus on what is wrong, or try to mend what has been ripped apart. There will always be sleazy politicians, people in positions who usurp their power, and the greedy who get richer, while the poor get poorer. However, we can also be the change in the tide. Maintaining our right to bear arms is as important as our right to free speech. IT is what makes us individuals, who can defend and protect ourselves if we need to. Just as there senseless killings, there is the opportunity to open our children's eyes to see the reality and seriousness of guns, or any weapon. We need to guide our children, not shield them from reality. NOt teaching them about guns or taking them away, won't stop people from getting them or using them. ITs kind of like sex. Society wants to regulate it, prevent it, or scare kids from doing it. Reality tells us, NOT Going to HAPPEN> So maybe if we take a different approach, it will work.
I am all for peace and for uniting people of all walks of life, but taking away people's rights as the justification for peace, won't work and will only make the people of this county more adament and angry about their right to bear arms.
EDUCATION is the key, that and RESPECT...

I am all for peace and for uniting people of all walks of life, but taking away people's rights as the justification for peace, won't work and will only make the people of this county more adament and angry about their right to bear arms.
EDUCATION is the key, that and RESPECT....

That certainly didn't happen down under here when they took away our right to bear arms many years ago. There was a few demonstrations but by and large people accepted it and moved on with life.

Ill do some further research before making my claims but I always here that gun control laws don't work. I beg to differ but right now I haven't the time to go through the facts!

The thing is everyone says it is about educating gun users. All very well and good and no doubt that is very important. But everyone also claims that these people who go on these mad killing sprees are mentally ill. How do you educate the mentally ill? They won't listen. Education is nothing to them and even if they have it all that goes out the window in their emotionally sensitive state.

Wouldn't it make sense to make it hard / impossible for them to get a gun rather than gtive it to them and then try and educate? Just my thoughts. Im sure there will be some good arguments.

I do enjoy these debates because the issue of guns and gun control in US is just something that really perplexes me. There is an epidemic of gun violence yet almost everyone seems content with the laws that are in place regarding guns.

It is only because we have a deep rooted belief that by owning guns we are still in control of our freedom and sovernty. That is a complete load of bull. My personal reason for not wanting hand gun control? I just love a good ole fashion shoot out with any dumbass that thinks they can punk me.

It is only because we have a deep rooted belief that by owning guns we are still in control of our freedom and sovernty. That is a complete load of bull. My personal reason for not wanting hand gun control? I just love a good ole fashion shoot out with any dumbass that thinks they can punk me.

At least your honest. :) My gut feeling is that there are more who share your opinion but masquerade behind the freedom issue. (Im not suggesting you Synn because I do actually believe you).

I can't fathom the idea that a gun is needed for the day of uprising against the Government. Surely if that was going to happen it would have by now with the imbecile in charge at present??

Here come the Cobra Jets... hand me my 12 gauge!

This is about a nut case. A guy that went off on a jealous rage. He could have used anything. The problem is not so much guns, but what is so wrong with people they feel they can just kill when they are pissed off or rejected.
Have we so catered to our children's self esteem, given them so much that they cannot accept rejection? They think the world should love them? That they should have everything they want?

Hey... some of us are working on that.

We just have to be covert about it, because of those terrorists the president has everyone convinced is behind every bush (haha--I crack myself up there).

Thanks, Skell. I'm glad you believe me :)

Edit: dang! Fast posters! Some of us are working on the whole overthrowing the government thing, I mean

I really wanted to say something about that myself but I do not want to generalize however, since you mention it, most kids are being raised with no responsibility and no sense of what anything is worth. Hell, they sit around playing video games, on the computer and don't even help mom take out the trash. They are coddled and protected and given their way until no one can say no to them. This guys girl friend said no to him so he shot every one at the party.

This is about a nut case. A guy that went off on a jealous rage. He could have used anything. The problem is not so much guns, but what is so wrong with people they feel they can just kill when they are pissed off or rejected.
Have we so catered to our children's self esteem, given them so much that they cannot accept rejection? They think the world should love them? That they should have everything they want?

I still find it hard to believe that he would have knifed or bashed that many people to death before being stopped.

A gun is a unique weapon that allows this type of murder spree. Other than bombings what other methods of killing do you hear about where the are multiple killings in a fit of rage where the choice of weapon isn't a gun? I never hear reports or read about a rejected soul going to town and killing 15 people with a hockey stick!

Although the maniac is most at fault, his choice of weapon and how he comes across it must surely come into question too?

This is true, but the problem is people going on rampages. We need to find out what is happening with people. There are so many men killing girlfriends and family members and not all of them with handguns. People hiring people to kill. Guns are a problem, but the bigger problem is these psychotic spoiled people running around who can't take no for an answer or think if they want something they can just take it.
We need to get a handle on the mindset of these folks.

I agree, however as is see it, it would be a lot simpler task implementing systems to control gun violence then it would be implementing systems to control whackos. How hard would that be?

I know in my town, there is a difference between the city police and the state troopers.
As a whole, the troopers are more professional. The local cops are not trained as well, in my opinion.

The troopers, as rookies, do not patrol in the county they grew up in - too much subjectivity when you know and are known by the locals. Obviously the case in this sad situation.

Also for the job stress, the relatively low pay, the resposibilities and in a lot of cases the lack of respect, I commend anyone in the police force.

They are humans also. A percent will be "bad," just like in any other group or category of people.


As to guns. I learned from NRA members. Safety, education, and respect was stressed.
Like any other tool, it can be misused.




Grace and Peace

As to guns. I learned from NRA members. Safety, education, and respect was stressed.
Like any other tool, it can be misused.


Grace and Peace

But unlike most other tools its misuse causes murder and destruction.

But unlike most other tools its misuse causes murder and destruction.
Do you mean like many other things? Not following the rules in my car while I am driving can cause murder and destruction, so can many, many other things... :(

I agree we need to do something about guns. There are people who make money off the sell of illegal firearms and I'm not talking about your everyday criminals. It's like drugs. People in high places are making money and as long as that continues, it will not stop.
But we do need to try and find out what is wrong with people that they are going off like this.
You read the stuff on this site. You've got teenage boys who can't take No for answer. Can't understand what a girl would not want them. Or men killing or hurting their girlfriend and wives because they no longer want them. People are just crazy. They take themselves too seriously and think everyone else should too.

And Homegirl, the ladies too... I have seen and heard of some pretty fightening stories about ladies doing just the same things. Wow, sure is sad. "Take responsibilty...and have some respect" Many other posters have said the same thing. I believe in that. So sad to think that someone is that selfish and crazy to want to do that and then actually do it. As it stands, and probably never will change, we have to live in this world with these people!

Do you mean like many other things? Not following the rules in my car while I am driving can cause murder and destruction, so can many, many other things...:(

That's right. Cars do kill people. And that's why there are loads of road rules and a police system that is there to enforce them. We don't allow people who can't drive to have a car. Its probably harder to get a car license then it is to get a gun. The rules associated with cars and the road are constantly review and changed to try and limit accidents and deaths. Society demands it. The minute though someone calls for gun control laws to be introduced / reviewed everyone is up in arms about it saying that their constitutional rights are being broken.

Please read this thread.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/member-discussions/shooting-cleveland-school-139253-2.html#post660422

You may just see it from the hostage's point of view.

Thats right. Cars do kill people. And thats why there are loads of road rules and a police system that is there to enforce them. We don't allow people who can't drive to have a car. Its probably harder to get a car license then it is to get a gun. The rules associated with cars and the road are constantly review and changed to try and limit accidents and deaths. Society demands it. The minute though someone calls for gun control laws to be introduced / reviewed everyone is up in arms about it saying that their constitutional rights are being broken.
My pint is that yes there are MANY road rules... and STILL people are killed daily. I understand though, it is easy to get both a license and a gun. I see your point.

My pint is that yes there are MANY road rules...and STILL people are killed daily. I understand though, it is easy to get both a license and a gun. I see your point.

Too easy! That is my point exactly. :)

And Homegirl, the ladies too...I have seen and heard of some pretty fightening stories about ladies doing just the same things. Wow, sure is sad. "Take responsibilty...and have some respect" Many other posters have said the same thing. I believe in that. So sad to think that someone is that selfish and crazy to want to do that and then actually do it. As it stands, and probably never will change, we have to live in this world with these people!
You're right. Women as well. People are just selfish and spoiled, and when they can't have their way, they don't care who they hurt. Violence is nothing but a means to and end. It's scary. We as a society and parents have dropped the ball.