Religion Must Be Destroyed, Atheist Alliance Declares (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200710/CUL20071003a.html)


Science must ultimately destroy organized religion, according to some of the leading atheist writers and intellectuals who spoke at a recent atheist conference in Northern Virginia. God is a myth, and children must not be schooled in any faith, they said, at the "Crystal Clear Atheism" event, sponsored by the Atheist Alliance International.

Some of the luminaries who spoke at the conference, held at the Crown Royal Hotel in Crystal City, Va. over the weekend, included Oxford professor Richard Dawkins, author Sam Harris and journalist Christopher Hitchens. The Atheist Alliance International describes itself as "the only democratic national atheist organization in the United States."

While most attendees on Friday night were adamant that God was a myth, the convention, attended by hundreds of people, brought into focus a divide among atheists as to their identity as a movement and the nature of the enemy they faced.

In his speech, Dawkins portrayed a black-and-white intellectual battle between atheism and religion. He denounced the "preposterous nonsense of religious customs" and compared religion to racism. He also gave no quarter to moderate or liberal believers, asserting that "so-called moderate Christianity is simply an evasion."

"If you've been taught to believe it by moderates, what's to stop you from taking the next step and blowing yourself up?" he said.

By contrast, Harris's speech was a more tempered critique of the atheist movement itself. While Harris said he believed science must ultimately destroy religion, he also discussed spirituality and mysticism and called for a greater understanding of allegedly spiritual phenomena. He also cautioned the audience against lumping all religions together.

"The refrain that all religions have their extremists is bull-t," Harris said. "All religions do not have their extremists. Some religions have never had their extremists."

Specifically, he noted that radical Islam was far more threatening than any radical Christian sect, adding that Christians had a right to be outraged when the media treated the two religions similarly...

Dawkins was particularly critical of parents who raise their children as a "Catholic child" or "Protestant child." Children must not be labeled as subscribing to a particular religion, he said, and should be allowed to examine the evidence and determine their beliefs for themselves...

Atheists are still a small minority in America. A Newsweek poll earlier this year found that 91 percent of Americans believe in God. A more recent Pew Research Center poll found that atheists were among the most distrusted people in the nation, with 53 percent of Americans holding an unfavorable opinion of them.

But they are a proudly elitist and self-certain minority. When asked what the main difference between believers and atheists was, Dawkins had a quick answer: "Well, we're bright."

No word on whether tolerance was a subject of discussion although one of the speakers at the conference, Sale McGowan, believes "humility is the natural inheritance of atheism (http://www.atheistalliance.org/family/essay-mcgowan7.php)." I'm not sure one reconciles these "bright" atheists pronouncement that religion must be destroyed with the pronouncement that "humility is the natural inheritance of atheism." Anyone? Or is it all just an atheist aversion?

Also, is anyone out there in fear of moderate Christians taking the next step and blowing themselves up, or is Harris right in that "Christians had a right to be outraged when the media treated the two religions similarly?"

Wow... That is a big bundle. I do not fear religion as I used to as I am now becoming a little more aware that going to war with it is just another waste of time. I believe it started with one man and look where it is now. I know that is not really an answer to your question's but I agree with a lot of the quotes you posted. Children should believe for themselves, we are not liked and we are bright. If in the post it was linked "Extremists and blowing themselves up was literal"?They won't blow themselves up because they are so much a part of western civilization and would miss their Starbucks and pay per view. Children schooled in fact not faith as I'm sure you heard "Faith is believing in something as fact when there is no logical reason to do so."

Bah, both sides have wackos. Nothing to see here.

I completely disagree with this idea of 'science destroying religion'! Children do often choose what to believe and in fact, many scientists believe in God. And saying that believers will 'take the next step' and blow themselves up is complete nonsense!

Bah, both sides have wackos. Nothing to see here.

It's comforting that you acknowledge that much, but curious you don't seem to have the same enthusiasm for criticizing these wackos as you do Christian wackos. I'd still like to know your thoughts on their stance that religion must be destroyed, particularly in light of number 2 on their "Who We Are (http://www.atheistalliance.org/aai/index.php)" statement.


Every human being is entitled to freedom of conscience, which requires absolute state neutrality towards religion and nonreligion and governmental maintenance of inviolate human rights. Thus, we oppose any law requiring or forbidding the personal observance of religion.

Listen, I make it a policy to distance myself from fanatics of all kinds. I certainly don't give them airtime to popularize their twisted beliefs.

Edit to add: that quote you show does not advocate "destroying religion" like you mention. You're putting a sensationalistic spin on it to rile up emotion - you are Fox News! :D

Well, let's see here:

"Science must ultimately destroy organized religion, according to some of the leading atheist writers and intellectuals..."

How am I to interpret that? Are they saying that it's a forgone conclusion (at least in their minds) that science will eventually disprove and invalidate all of the world's religions, or are they saying that--with their help--science will mount an intellectual attack and forcibly remove religion from the world?

Out of pure kindness, I will assume the former, even though the latter seems to be on some folk's agendas.

"children must not be schooled in any faith"

I guess that's the difference between Mr. Dawkins and myself. I respect his right to believe what he chooses to believe, and to teach his children what he sees fit. So long as it harms no one, I see no problem with anyone doing just that. Too bad he is unwilling to extend the same objectivity and courtesy with folks of a religious nature.

"Thus, we oppose any law requiring or forbidding the personal observance of religion."

Good. They agree with the 1st Amendment. That should be sufficient to completely negate any other arguments they might make along these lines, then.

The more science "discovers " the more we are able to appreciate the awesome magnificant complexity of God's creation.

The problem is that when you look at religion from a non-religious perspective meaning you don't favor a religion to start with. They all are about the same and all have about as much proof of god as I have proof of an intangible and invisible pink unicorn which is none. Religion is simply one story built on another that changes as one leader after another makes a change to it. Just look at the similarity between Hercules and Jesus.
1. Both has a earthly mother and god father.
2. Both had trials to over come in there life
3. Both had power beyond that of normal men
4. Both have stories that include information about birth but little about their childhood
5. Hera wanted to kill Hercules and Herod want to kill Jesus
6. When they died they both went to join their father
7. Both are believed to be real people by much of the populace during their time.
8. Temples are built to Hercules Churches are built to Jesus
9. There is no writings from the time that either of them lived that make mention of them
10. Both finally met their end only because of a loved one.
11. Neither left an earthly corpse.
If these were to movies coming out at the same time you would have a copyright lawsuit on your hands.

This is when religious people start to talk about faith and they know they are right in their heart. The greeks thought they were right, too. The greeks were wrong and so is everyone else who believes in a god and most of you would see it but religious brian washing has taken control over the population. People are no more at fault for following their religion than the people that followed Jim Jones are, most people just don't have the ability to step back once they are involved. A flaw in gods perfect design.

I know my words are flammatory but it's just how I feel about it and there is no reason to get angry with me remember I'm just some smuck on the internet. Don't bomb my house for it.

Dawkins and Harris are both loudmouths who get carried away. Then can make some good points at times, but when they get riled up their contempt for anything religious takes over and they go nuts. Harris is well known for his disdain for Islam, and Dawkins has an entire section in his book about calling a child a "catholic child" and so on. Taken in context it sort of makes sense; if you are born to Jewish parents in a strong Jewish family and strong Jewish community, it is more likely you will be Jewish. The same can be said for every other religion/denomination. He feels we should not tell children what to believe; "You're parents are Jewish, your grandparents are Jewish, you're Jewish", but rather let them make the decision on their own. Sort of reminds me of adult baptism, really. Anyway, obviously in his mind kids would choose the "right" path (atheism) and the world would be void of religion in a few generations, but let's be real here.

I've never met an atheist who is as fanatical as either of these two men, or as the other outspoken atheists who make the media circuit. The ones I know are happy to carry on their way and let you carry on your way. Crazy things start to happen when you put people in groups, which I sure is what happened in this conference.

I personally think science and religion are compatible.

As to destroying religion, Dawkins is not as smart as he thinks he is.

It will never happen. Ask Nero, Stalin , Mao etc...

Dawkins is entitled to his opinion, but when it comes to raising MY CHILDREN, he displays his elitism by his statements.

As to Christians blowing themselves up, it is a theoretical possibility.
There are "Christians" that want to harm doctors who perform abortions, and destroy abortion clinics. But I'd wager that multiple Christian organizations would immediately denounce these acts.




Grace and Peace

Really, anyone who thinks that religion in the US (or the world, for that matter) will be 100% eliminated or take over 100% is just plain wrong. There are far too many theistic people in the US and the world to ever eliminate religion; even if science came up with undisputable scientific proof there is no such thing as "god", people would still follow their faith - they would say god is testing us, or the "proof" is a lie or whatever. It's an unreasonable battle to fight, which is what irritates me so much about Dawkins. It really is like fighting an uphill battle; you're never going to win. There is also never going to be an instance of the US becoming a theocracy; sure there are people who wish it would happen, but there are far more reasonable people who would put a stop to it.

This is when religious people start to talk about faith and they know they are right in their heart. The greeks thought they were right, too. The greeks were wrong and so is everyone else who believes in a god and most of you would see it but religious brian washing has taken control over the population. People are no more at fault for following their religion than the people that followed Jim Jones are, most people just don't have the ability to step back once they are involved. A flaw in gods perfect design.

I know my words are flammatory but it's just how I feel about it and there is no reason to get angry with me remember I'm just some smuck on the internet. Don't bomb my house for it.

I hear often that we are brain washed because of our role models, be it parents, other family, pastors, friends, etc. We are not brain washed, we have a choice in the matter and we made our choice. Be it to follow what we were introduce to and learned about, or not to. I know many people who were raised in a Christian home who choose not to follow their parents beliefs. Actually you will even find that many pastor's children are rebellious against their parent's strict household based upon their pastor father's beliefs. They were not brain washed, but those who do choose to follow the beliefs we were introduced to are brain washed? That's not very good reasoning. When we are saved we are like infants spiritually. It doesn't matter whether we are saved when we are young or old. It doesn't matter how much we were taught through church, our parents or even school we are still as infants when we are saved. It is through God and God alone that we grow spiritually (gain knowledge). Sure, I was taught things about God and the Bible before I was saved, but it wasn't until I was saved that things become clear and undeniable truths to me and not because my parents said they were. It is by my own studying and with God's help that I grow spiritually and gain better knowledge of all things God. That has nothing to do with what my role models say or do. They have no bearing or influence on my spiritual growth, it is by my own actions that this happens.
Sure people can be influenced or as you say "brain washed", but if their reason for believing there is a God is because their parents said so then they haven't gained any knowledge at all, and their belief means nothing to God.. it isn't real and true.

You have just as much right to express your thoughts as those who disagree with you. I don't think your opinion is inflammatory, but your remark about bombing your home is ridiculous. People tend to put all Christians into one group as though we are all the same. Since some Christian priests molest young boys we all do, right? Or we agree with it? Since people hurt others because God told them to or in the name of God, we all do? Or we agree with it, right? Since some people damn people to hell in attempt to get people to see things their way, we all do it, right? Or we agree with it? Some stress their devotion as if they do no wrong yet you see with your own eyes their hypocrisy, we all do it, right? Or we agree with it? Some speak of God as though they are an expert yet you and even people of their same belief clearly see their ignorance, we all are, right? Or we agree with it?
The point is that we are not all the same though we are all under the Christian religion. Our relationships with God are not all the same. We are on different levels spiritually and we have different levels of knowledge. We are not all bombers, molesters, hypocrites, ignorant, or "holier than thou". See people as who they are individually rather than grouping us all together.

I don't think your opinion is inflammatory, but your remark about bombing your home is ridiculous.

PSSST, Moon! I think he was making a joke in reference to the original post and Christians blowing themselves up... :)

Jillian, He probably was making a joke, but my post still stands. People do tend to put all Christians into one group as though we are all the same. And my post wasn't necessary directed just to Michael, it is to anyone who speaks to us as if we are all alike.

Listen, I make it a policy to distance myself from fanatics of all kinds. I certainly don't give them airtime to popularize their twisted beliefs.

Edit to add: that quote you show does not advocate "destroying religion" like you mention. You're putting a sensationalistic spin on it to rile up emotion - you are Fox News! :D

What is this affinity you have for questioning my sources questioning the credibility of my sources (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/allah-one-one-allah-121173.html#post569840) complete with disparaging "Fox News" comments? From the horse's mouth, Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith and convention speaker (http://www.atheistalliance.org/conventions/2007/) in an article entitled Science Must Destroy Religion (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/science-must-destroy-reli_b_13153.html):


Religion is fast growing incompatible with the emergence of a global, civil society. Religious faith — faith that there is a God who cares what name he is called, that one of our books is infallible, that Jesus is coming back to earth to judge the living and the dead, that Muslim martyrs go straight to Paradise, etc. — is on the wrong side of an escalating war of ideas. The difference between science and religion is the difference between a genuine openness to fruits of human inquiry in the 21st century, and a premature closure to such inquiry as a matter of principle. I believe that the antagonism between reason and faith will only grow more pervasive and intractable in the coming years. Iron Age beliefs — about God, the soul, sin, free will, etc. — continue to impede medical research and distort public policy. The possibility that we could elect a U.S. President who takes biblical prophesy seriously is real and terrifying; the likelihood that we will one day confront Islamists armed with nuclear or biological weapons is also terrifying, and it is increasing by the day. We are doing very little, at the level of our intellectual discourse, to prevent such possibilities. 

In the spirit of religious tolerance, most scientists are keeping silent when they should be blasting the hideous fantasies of a prior age with all the facts at their disposal.

To win this war of ideas, scientists and other rational people will need to find new ways of talking about ethics and spiritual experience. The distinction between science and religion is not a matter of excluding our ethical intuitions and non-ordinary states of consciousness from our conversation about the world; it is a matter of our being rigorous about what is reasonable to conclude on their basis. We must find ways of meeting our emotional needs that do not require the abject embrace of the preposterous. We must learn to invoke the power of ritual and to mark those transitions in every human life that demand profundity — birth, marriage, death, etc. — without lying to ourselves about the nature of reality.

I am hopeful that the necessary transformation in our thinking will come about as our scientific understanding of ourselves matures. When we find reliable ways to make human beings more loving, less fearful, and genuinely enraptured by the fact of our appearance in the cosmos, we will have no need for divisive religious myths. Only then will the practice of raising our children to believe that they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu be broadly recognized as the ludicrous obscenity that it is. And only then will we stand a chance of healing the deepest and most dangerous fractures in our world.

Sounds to me like he means what the title of his article says, and I have no reason to doubt that was a theme of the convention.

I wasn't questioning your source. It's obvious what the guy is doing regardless of who reports it. I mention Fox News because your sensationalistic topic and first post are similar to what the laughing stock of the 'news' industry does. Funny how that's the only thing you decided to comment on.

Moonlitwaves,
You don't think the fact that atheist are currently the most hated group in a America gives a child pause before he chooses to turn away from religion. It gave me pause I still don't tell people about it in my personal life for fear of what people will do. Brain washing may be the wrong word for it, maybe it's more like conditioning. Children believe what they are told, it's why we all believe in the tooth fairy and santa clause, when we are young. Yes, we start to question it and our parents come clean but say parent didn't admit they are fairy tales. How long do you think a child would believe in santa clause? If the parent instead said you have to believe or santa doesn't bring you presents. If the parent could get a good portion of the people that spoke to the child to continue with the joke. I'm willing to bet you would have a almost 90% retention rate of adults that believed in santa and would point to the present left by their parent as physical proof of santa and nothing that you could do later in that adults life would shake his believe that Santa is alive and well and brings him presents every christmas.

There are people who are religious that are smarter than I am maybe even some on this board. So I don't think it is solely a matter of intellect. At the same time it seems so simple to me that I don't understand why someone can't see it. Group think, conditioning or maybe just the fact that people tend to blindly follow authority, I'm not sure how you would test that.

There isn't enough time for Rationalists(science supporters) to destroy religion(blind faith)!! That would take hundreds of years, if then! I have read a leading atheist/rationalist on the subject(can't remember if it was Dawkins, but probably was), and they have no "hope" or reason to believe that religion can be stamped out.

There certainly can be some inroads made with educated people in America(and elsewhere)who don't think about GodAlmighty and his description in The Bible, but just sort of go along without thinking. Atheists are indeed the more intelligent people. (and more courageous people, too) Education is an antidote to belief in the supernatural and superstitious actions and irrational thinking.

Your statistics are incorrect, however. Recently, polls have indicated that 86% of Americans declare themselves to be Christians. Last month, another poll showed that around 80% are Christians. I studied the Newsweek article closely and found it to be quite excellent. I believe that "about 10%" of Americans are declared atheists which has been a stable percentage of population for quite a long time.

Some Muslim men are far more violent than Christians. Christians inhabit the culture that was the culture of great scientific advancement, great advancement in the arts, in technology, in astronomy and physics, medicine , and everything that makes life pleasurable and alleviates human suffering. In short, Americans are much happier than most Muslims. Muslims can't blame Islam, so they project blame for Islamic culture's failure over the last hundreds of years on others. Remember, Islam is the center of their lives, their society, their culture, their law... *Islam* and Muslim leaders are what failed the people. The twisted thinking of those men-Jihadists who hate to see the lowly place of Islamic cultures compared to other societies on earth have GONE TO WAR to protect the cultures hence religion where men are supreme and exhaulted. (Wrote this paragraph fast so may need editing)

Anyway, there will be lots of upheaval while the Islamic world caves in from being backward and barbaric since we have to fight against the evil JIhadists murders that come out of this slow pending collapse.

Islam is here to stay and will exist until the end of time, no matter which "intelligent" person says it will not!

Some Muslim men are far more violent than Christians.

I read an interesting article that said it may not be religion to fully be blamed for the violence in the middle east. The article said polygamy is to blame. The fact that they have a surplus of men who are poor and have no chance at a wife. So if you are poor and have have no chance at offspring and little chance at bettering yourself. We all might get violent.

Islam is here to stay and will exist until the end of time, no matter which "intelligent" person says it will not!

It has to be something other than intellect the separates us because Firm you might be smarter than me I don't know you certainly write better than I do but when I look at religion it seems simple I dismiss all faiths equally. It just doesn't seem logical to not do so, how can you dismiss one and not all when all have the same amount of evidence.

It has to be something other than intellect the separates us because Firm you might be smarter than me I don't know you certainly write better than I do but when I look at religion it seems simple I dismiss all faiths equally. It just doesn't seem logical to not do so, how can you dismiss one and not all when all have the same amount of evidence.

Mine makes most sense to "me".
Including scientific research etc, I do not see proof not to believe.:)

P.s.could you direct questions to me regarding Islam on the Islam board.
I seem to be stepping on toes on other religious boards! Thanks.

firmbeliever, etc, The likely scenario of the die-off of human beings on planet earth could easily be that the last person on earth to die from water pollultion and air pollution would be a Chinese atheist. After The War for Water in Asia is won years earlier by the Chinese.

firmbeliever, etc, The likely scenario of the die-off of human beings on planet earth could easily be that the last person on earth to die from water pollultion and air pollution would be a Chinese atheist. After The War for Water in Asia is won years earlier by the Chinese.

The last person on earth need not be a muslim:).
Islam meaning submission to One God and all living things acknowledge this.

Until all living things are destroyed Islam exists.

Moonlitwaves,
You don't think the fact that atheist are currently the most hated group in a America gives a child pause before he chooses to turn away from religion. It gave me pause I still don't tell people about it in my personal life for fear of what people will do. Brain washing may be the wrong word for it, maybe it's more like conditioning. Children believe what they are told, it's why we all believe in the tooth fairy and santa clause, when we are young. Yes, we start to question it and our parents come clean but say parent didn't admit they are fairy tales. How long do you think a child would believe in santa clause? If the parent instead said you have to believe or santa doesn't bring you presents. If the parent could get a good portion of the people that spoke to the child to continue with the joke. I'm willing to bet you would have a almost 90% retention rate of adults that believed in santa and would point to the present left by their parent as physical proof of santa and nothing that you could do later in that adults life would shake his believe that Santa is alive and well and brings him presents every christmas.

There are people who are religious that are smarter than I am maybe even some on this board. So I don't think it is solely a matter of intellect. At the same time it seems so simple to me that I don't understand why someone can't see it. Group think, conditioning or maybe just the fact that people tend to blindly follow authority, I'm not sure how you would test that.

I'm sure there may be some who are more susceptible to believe everything they are told, especially if it is by those they love, hold dear or trust. But that's grouping. We are not all the same and therefore shouldn't all be put into one group. If your theory of conditioning or brain washing is correct then that means everyone would believe what they were taught to believe, but this is not the case therefore this disproves that we are "all" brain washed. All I'm saying is that I do not like to be put into a group with others when my thoughts, my knowledge, my actions, my level of spirituality is my own and stands alone. It should not be grouped with others because we are not all the same. We do not think the same and do not act the same.
Just as you think it seems so simple and you can't understand why people don't see it... I think that seeing God truly exists is so simple I don't understand why others can't see it as well.
I understand what you are saying when you use your santa senerio, but I still disagree. Maybe there are many weak minded people out there, but I am not one of them and therefore should not be put in the same category/group as them. That's what I was getting at.
And it goes the other way as well. How do you know that your thoughts on religion weren't persuaded by your parents and role models? Because you just know it. Well so do we.

Religion Must Be Destroyed, Atheist Alliance Declares (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200710/CUL20071003a.html)



No word on whether or not tolerance was a subject of discussion although one of the speakers at the conference, Sale McGowan, believes "humility is the natural inheritance of atheism (http://www.atheistalliance.org/family/essay-mcgowan7.php)." I'm not sure one reconciles these "bright" atheists pronouncement that religion must be destroyed with the pronouncement that "humility is the natural inheritance of atheism." Anyone? Or is it all just an atheist aversion?

Also, is anyone out there in fear of moderate Christians taking the next step and blowing themselves up, or is Harris right in that "Christians had a right to be outraged when the media treated the two religions similarly?"I'm in fear of christians taking the next step & blowing themselves & others up. Have you not heard of the far right & what they believe in ? You probably believe the far right is harmless, but they want to turn America, indeed, the world, into a totalitarian theocracy where there is no religious liberty except for christians, no free speech, & no separation of church & state. I'm in fear of muslims for the same reasons. I, however, am not an atheist. I believe in the Deist God. Also, not everyone in America who believe in a God are christians.

Well, I st say that Christians do definitely have their radicals and extremists. Im not much for the turn or burn tactic, at all, but they are out there.
However it is much more prominent in the islamic reigion, having their hatred especially directed at Christians because we have "more than one god" because of the trinity.
In regards to the statement that there should be no faith in the schools...
WHAT THE HECK DO ATHIESTS CALL EVOLUTION??
Face the facts, when people want to believe something they ill take whatever 'proof' is thrown at them and take it as it is, without even checking the validity of the matter.
Like when I believe this same person who made this post made one about contradictions in the Bible, but when you go and actually look at the context there is blatantly no contradiction except for mans inerpretation...

Moonlitwaves
Not all methods of control work on all people some people it won't work. They won't join heavens gate or Jim Jones cults it's not that they are to smart it's that the method that leader is using doesn't work on them.

I'm sure my thoughts on religion were influenced by my parents and after reading many studies on how the human mind can be trick and fooled. I came to the conclusion that until you realize that you are not above being fooled your thoughts aren't your own.
“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself a fool.”
Anatole France
Leidenschaftlich für Wahr
Evolution is not faith. Evolution has been directly observed. I've seen it, you can see it you want to no faith required just a microscope and a few weeks with some yeast cells.

I'm pretty sure Deist made the post about the contradictions and as far as I remember Speechlesstx is a christian

Through out the ages there have been atrocities committed by people of religion. I would not directly blame a person’s religion unless the tenets of the religion call for such acts. I look at what the religion is teaching, not just the actions of those who claim a religion. I do not know what atheists look to for their moral compass. I am sure it is as different to each individual. Myself as a Christian I look to the teaching of my church as my moral compass.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

Part 3, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 5, SubSection 2, Heading 4

2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

I can assure you there is a 0% chance of me blowing myself up!

Michaelb:

"Not all methods of control work on all people some people it won't work."

I know that there are those Christians that want to "control" what others think and how to behave, but if you look at the Bible as a whole, it is obvious that mankind has free will. God gives us freedom to choose, and accept the consequences.

God is love. And power and love are opposites. The former is selfish and the latter is selfless. There is no "controlling" someone to become obedient. There is a free choice, an act of love, to be obedient.

Also you can look at yeast or bacteria under a microscope for as long as you want, they do not "evolve " into another species. Acquire different traits, yes, but a prokaryotic cell becoming eukaryotic under manmade conditions, don't hold your breath.



Grace and Peace

The bible may say the god gives you the right to choose but the church doesn't and have proven many times that they will do what they have to in order to push their belief on as many people as possible.

I hate to talk about evolution again but I think part of the problem people have with evolution is that species are not hard things set in stone. As a species acquires new small traits over hundreds of thousands of years it becomes a new species. Just like mankind took wolfs (Canis lupus) and bred them to (Canis domesticus) and yes I can't observe that cause it takes to long but we have it documented with fossil records of the common dog.

As a species acquires new small traits over hundreds of thousands of years it becomes a new species.

Show us the evidence.

Artificial selection (like the breeding of dogs), can also produce horizontal change within a particular kind (white Poodles vs. black Great Danes). However, this is merely
" microevolution" involving the sorting and/or loss of previously existing genetic information (alleles), not the creation of new information in the genome. Breeding or selecting frogs for thousands or even for millions of years can only produce breeds of frogs.

Oh... I do love reading these posts! But let's all stick to logic? Fact? Oh wait we can't discuss religion with logic and fact! Sorry everyone please continue.

People might be able to destroy religion but the will never destroy God's WORD

Oh... I do love reading these posts! But let's all stick to logic? Fact? Oh wait we can't discuss religion with logic and fact! Sorry everyone please continue.

Apparently it seems you can not reason religion out of someone and why did no one dispute that Jesus and Hercules are the same story I expected someone to say something about it.

If you all want to discuss evolution with me and others. Someone open a thread in the science section and send me a pm and I will be happy to contribute there otherwise we have gotten off topic. It was probably my fault but maybe the fact that religion is trying to stamp out sound ideas and replace them with things that do not hold up under scientific method is a good reason we should get rid of religion.

Greg Quinn agrees: True... But we are but a few and our minds get lost... Maybe because your god does not believe in atheists?

I appreciate the greenie, Greg, but you have mistaken me for a theist... I'm not. :)

I wasn't questioning your source. It's obvious what the guy is doing regardless of who reports it. I mention Fox News becasue your sensationalistic topic and first post are similar to what the laughing stock of the 'news' industry does. Funny how that's the only thing you decided to comment on.

Sensationalistic is Media Matters reporting Limbaugh slammed the troops and Senate Democrats offering a resolution to condemn the man for a quote taken out of context. Sensationalistic is Howard Dean reporting "President Bush rejected health care for children." Reporting on atheists declaring religion must be destroyed is necessary, in effect declaring war on millions of people of faith, is necessary.

The only reason Fox News is a "laughingstock" to anyone is they are successful in spite of not carrying the liberal mantra like every other network news channel. As for your last comment, come back to reality. That post consisted of 526 words, 504 of which were not about Fox News.

Sensationalistic is Howard Dean reporting "President Bush rejected health care for children."

Hey! That's verbatum what I heard on the radio yesterday evening! :D


Reporting on atheists declaring religion must be destroyed is necessary, in effect declaring war on millions of people of faith, is necessary.

Do you really see this as an immediate and significant threat? The great "Unholy Trinity" have been talking about this for a while now, I don't see it going anywhere.

Reporting on atheists declaring religion must be destroyed is necessary, in effect declaring war on millions of people of faith, is necessary.


I always thought that war required soldiers and weapons. When it was still being talked about it was considered debate.

Moonlitwaves,
You don't think the fact that atheist are currently the most hated group in a America gives a child pause before he chooses to turn away from religion.

Atheists are the most hated group in America? I don't hate atheists, I'm not too fond of liberal/progressive moonbats however.

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/image/moonbat.jpg


So I don't think it is solely a matter of intellect. At the same time it seems so simple to me that I don't understand why someone can't see it. Group think, conditioning or maybe just the fact that people tend to blindly follow authority, I'm not sure how you would test that.

We feel the same way, God is so obvious we don't understand why people can't see Him. When it comes to true Christianity, it has nothing to do with group think or blindly following anyone, it is an experience. You don't know God until you experience God.

Atheists are indeed the more intelligent people. (and more courageous people, too) Education is an antidote to belief in the supernatural and superstitious actions and irrational thinking.

Choux, that's a nice made up fact, completely unsupportable except in your own mind. It seems everyone agrees Americans are behind in education and that would be due to the great dumbing down of America by the liberal elite that balk at testing our children on proficiency or even using red pencils when grading for fear of damaging the poor kid's psyche. In fact, home schooled children have outscored public and privately educated children on the ACT test for the tenth year in a row (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57055). Who tends to home school their children more than anyone else? Christians.


Your statistics are incorrect, however. Recently, polls have indicated that 86% of Americans declare themselves to be Christians. Last month, another poll showed that around 80% are Christians. I studied the Newsweek article closely and found it to be quite excellent. I believe that "about 10%" of Americans are declared atheists which has been a stable percentage of population for quite a long time.

They weren't my statistics.


Some Muslim men are far more violent than Christians.

Ya think??


Christians inhabit the culture that was the culture of great scientific advancement, great advancement in the arts, in technology, in astronomy and physics, medicine , and everything that makes life pleasurable and alleviates human suffering. In short, Americans are much happier than most Muslims. Muslims can't blame Islam, so they project blame for Islamic culture's failure over the last hundreds of years on others. Remember, Islam is the center of their lives, their society, their culture, their law... *Islam* and Muslim leaders are what failed the people. The twisted thinking of those men-Jihadists who hate to see the lowly place of Islamic cultures compared to other societies on earth have GONE TO WAR to protect the cultures hence religion where men are supreme and exhaulted. (Wrote this paragraph fast so may need editing)

I actually agree with you on this.

The problem is that you can't prove the negative. You can't prove that there isn't an invisible, intangible pink unicorn in the room with you because as soon as you devise a method to test for it. Believers will just say that the pink unicorn is above that method of testing as well.

Atheists are the most hated group in America?

There have been several polls that say that Americans would elect anyone of faith over atheist. Of course and then there is the first G Bush that said that he didn't think atheist deserver to be citizens. Never heard a president say that about another group before.

Of course I try not to use poll data too much. Since depending on how you ask the question you often get a completely different answer even thought they tend to be same question just with different wording.

Religion Must Be Destroyed, Atheist Alliance Declares (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200710/CUL20071003a.html)



No word on whether or not tolerance was a subject of discussion although one of the speakers at the conference, Sale McGowan, believes "humility is the natural inheritance of atheism (http://www.atheistalliance.org/family/essay-mcgowan7.php)." I'm not sure one reconciles these "bright" atheists pronouncement that religion must be destroyed with the pronouncement that "humility is the natural inheritance of atheism." Anyone? Or is it all just an atheist aversion?

Also, is anyone out there in fear of moderate Christians taking the next step and blowing themselves up, or is Harris right in that "Christians had a right to be outraged when the media treated the two religions similarly?"
Are you OK?

Hey! That's verbatum what I heard on the radio yesterday evening! :D

I assure you I didn't plagiarize... I get the DNC emails so I can know what they're saying. :D



Do you really see this as an immediate and significant threat? The great "Unholy Trinity" have been talking about this for a while now, I don't see it going anywhere.

Whether it's going anywhere or not, that's the kind of dangerous, intolerant nonsense that needs a response.

There have been several polls that say that Americans would elect anyone of faith over atheist. Of course and then there is the first G Bush that said that he didn't think atheist deserver to be citizens. Never heard a president say that about another group before.

Of course I try not to use poll data to much. Since depending on how you ask the question you often get a completely different answer even thought they tend to be same question just with different wording.

I think, Michaelb, that Americans - even Christians - are far more tolerant than we're given credit for. That's why it gets under my skin so much every time I see the race card played. A poll that says Americans would elect anyone over an atheist doesn't mean atheists are the most hated group in America. It just means they would prefer someone else running the country.

I'm in fear of christians taking the next step & blowing themselves & others up. Have you not heard of the far right & what they believe in ? You probably believe the far right is harmless, but they want to turn America, indeed, the world, into a totalitarian theocracy where there is no religious liberty except for christians, no free speech, & no separation of church & state. I'm in fear of muslims for the exact same reasons. I, however, am not an atheist. I believe in the Deist God. Also, not everyone in America who believe in a God are christians.

Please, no rhetoric, no conjecture, no assumptions, no theocracywatch.org nonsense. The idea that Christians want a theocracy as you describe it is entirely contradictory to our faith, and we as well as anyone understand that if you don't have the right to worship or not as you choose, then neither do we. People get all bent out of shape because we stand for something, like not killing children before they're born, which interferes with someone's "choice." The fact of the matter is, it isn't only Christians that support laws that reflect their values, everyone does. Christianity may want to win the world, but by winning your hearts and minds over to the love of God with a choice that you make. We aren't into suicide bombs and totalitarianism in spite of what you hear or fear.

I can assure you there is a 0% chance of me blowing my self
up!

Glad to hear it. I'll make the same claim so that makes at least two of us. :D

Oh... I do love reading these posts! But let's all stick to logic? Fact? Oh wait we can't discuss religion with logic and fact! Sorry everyone please continue.

What makes something logical? I'm supposed to believe it's logical that the oceans could rise up to 7 meters due to global warming, based on computer models, inconsistent studies and just plain bad science. That's not logical to me.

I always thought that war required soldiers and weapons. When it was still being talked about it was considered debate.

a. A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
b. A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/war)

When someone says "science must destroy religion," that's a declaration of war in my book.

a. A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
b. A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/war)

When someone says "science must destroy religion," that's a declaration of war in my book.

Okay by that definition I guess it is a declaration of war. Sucks to be you guys by our own admission we have all the smart people on our side. :D

It has to be something other than intellect the separates us because Firm you might be smarter than me I don't know you certainly write better than I do but when I look at religion it seems simple I dismiss all faiths equally. It just doesn't seem logical to not do so, how can you dismiss one and not all when all have the same amount of evidence.

Here is something you might like to read to understand a little of my views, not in my words but this is what I believe.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/other-religion/islam-viewed-others-121497-9.html#post651250

Okay by that definition I guess it is a declaration of war. Sucks to be you guys by our own admission we have all the smart people on our side. :D

I see your side is still has work to do on that humility thing. :D

The bible may say the god gives you the right to choose but the church doesn't and have proven many times that they will do what they have to in order to push their belief on as many people as possible.

I hate to talk about evolution again but I think part of the problem people have with evolution is that species are not hard things set in stone. As a species acquires new small traits over hundreds of thousands of years it becomes a new species. Just like mankind took wolfs (Canis lupus) and bred them to (Canis domesticus) and yes I can't observe that cause it takes to long but we have it documented with fossil records of the common dog.

Evolution may be (infact it probably is) true, but that does not stop christians believing in God. The Bible has stories about how mankind started but these are stories that have morals. And excuse me, but the christian church is not obliging people to 'join them', it is simply trying to spread the 'good news'. The Bible is the base of the christian religion, the christians follow it. You can believe what you want to believe, but you can't say untrue mean things about other religions!

Evolution may be (infact it probably is) true, but that does not stop christians believing in God. The Bible has stories about how mankind started but these are stories that have morals. And excuse me, but the christian church is not obliging people to 'join them', it is simply trying to spread the 'good news'. The Bible is the base of the christian religion, the christians follow it. You can believe what you want to believe, but you can't say untrue mean things about other religions!

I try to stay away from untrue things even though something that is untrue has never gotten in the way of christianity before why would it now. As for mean things that is exactly the point of this thread. Is that religion has done many mean things and people ignore it in the name of freedom of religion or because we are worried that some crazy religious person will bomb us for not believing.

Your right the missionaries give native people a choice they can become christian or die because the church only helps the ones that accept Jesus. Sounds like a good choice to me. Of course with better media coverage and things like that they don't do it as much but they still try to strip away the belief of the local culture and teach the children about Jesus. They just don't bother to change the adult religions any more.

Another thing about everyone who says that say god gives free will so you don't have to follow him but in the same breath tell you that if you don't you will burn forever. That would be one the same grounds as saying that you can kill as many people as you want to but were going to kill you afterwards. If you believe it to be true than he really isn't giving you choice now is he.

I agree completely, and I believe that it will happen too.

People tend to forget the simple fact, We are Humans. :)

Actually for a while now I've disliked all the religion that worshippes a god so much, that I turned to Satanism which only focus on oneself.

Simply I was naively good too much because of christianity, and "wanted" to do the opposite.

Which is a also good in a way, but I felt it was too evil.
Resulting in it being as bad as every other religion.

So I'm cheering you guys on with your Cause. :)

Frankly I believe in not and NOT in atheism.
I think it is a farce of the brain to those so afflicted that they can not see all the evidence that there is a God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Fred, you sign off with "Peace and kindness" yet you decide that everyone who is not like you has "a farce of the brain". That's an example of the hypocrisy that really turns people off religion.

Cheers and Merry Christmas.

NK.

P.S. You don't have to believe in atheism, it's OK. Atheist just believe in one less god than you do, we're not that far apart. :)

NeedKarma,
If you see it that way it's OK for you but I don't.
It was just a way of a saying and an oddball one at that.
I was trying to be cute and obviously failed
They don't believe in God, they say. But as such I don't believe in them for I feel and think that down deeply, hidden in their sub-conscience they know there is a God.
There are no atheists in foxholes is an old saying that I think is very true.
It has been witness in many wars including the one in Korea where I was.
I'm going to be gone from my home for a few days visiting family way up north.
I hope everyone has a happy and good holiday season.
Peace and kindness and have prosperous gentle new year,
Fred

But as such I don't believe in them for I feel and think that down deeply, hidden in their sub-conscience they know there is a God.I think it's the other way way around: the believers, hidden in their sub-conscience, deep down, have some doubts whether a god exists.

NeedKarma,
Obviously we think differently.
Personally I KNOW there is a God.. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I saw an interview with Dawkins where he actually said he believed there was a designer but that designer is most probably an alien rather than a God.

Very scientific and lgical I thought

What empircal evidence did Dawkins bring to the table to float that hypothesis ?

As we have seen with anthropological global warming ,it is very possible that the science itself can be corrupted when a scientist has a cult-like devotion to a predetermined conclusion.

He can believe in an alien designer but not a god? That's very logical. Speaking of AGW, I'd sure like some. I can't remember being so cold for so long in these parts.

speechlesstx,
I agree about an alien designer who is powerful enough and wise enough to design and create the universe.
That so called alien must have been a god to be able to do that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Religion Must Be Destroyed, Atheist Alliance Declares (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200710/CUL20071003a.html)



No word on whether or not tolerance was a subject of discussion although one of the speakers at the conference, Sale McGowan, believes "humility is the natural inheritance of atheism (http://www.atheistalliance.org/family/essay-mcgowan7.php)." I'm not sure one reconciles these "bright" atheists pronouncement that religion must be destroyed with the pronouncement that "humility is the natural inheritance of atheism." Anyone? Or is it all just an atheist aversion?

Also, is anyone out there in fear of moderate Christians taking the next step and blowing themselves up, or is Harris right in that "Christians had a right to be outraged when the media treated the two religions similarly?"

Listen you stupid people, religion has ended more life than anything the world has ever known. No need for the plague or aids or anything like that. Just have religion. I know many people of all religion greed greed and more greed, how can people with money watch starving people children . India all over the bloody world go to there churches and pray ing idiots, they are the one's rotting in hell

nick444,
Sorry nick, but I strongly disagree.
Yes religion has caused some serious problems over time, BUT...
NOT as much as no religion at all combined with forces trying to stomp out religion.
The fighting against spiritual belief has been foolish, destructive, deadly, and a failure as it always will be.
That's history and trying to change it is a foolish endeavor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred