How do christians explain Jesus' failed prophecies ? Here are only two among several.
Matthew 10:23, Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they could go over all the cities of Israel with the gospel. The gospel has since been preached all throughout Israel, & continues to be so with christian television now, & still Jesus hasn't returned.
Mark 14:62, Jesus told the high priest that he would live to see Jesus' second coming. Of course the high priest died before Jesus returned.
So there is two false prophecies made by Jesus. Any explanations ?

Incorrect. Matthew 10:23 says "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes"

...note the word not.

Mark 14:62

"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

... does not say anything about when.

I clarify on the first one. We would argue here that Christ did "come" before they were done. He returned from the dead.

I clarify on the first one. We would argue here that Christ did "come" before they were done. He returned from the dead.Poor answer on both counts. Jesus didn't say the disciples would not go over the cities of Israel before he rose, but before he would come. And as to Mark 14:62 Jesus told the high priest you shall see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power & coming in the clouds. The high priest did not see this in his lifetime. You're reaching.

Matthew 10:23 --

NT prophecy ("eschatology") is predominantly preterist, i.e. fulfilled completely in the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70. (spiritual "coming"). In other words, not all "coming" passages are physical ones, i.e. refer to Christ's coming. This is a spiritual one.

Jesus is saying that he will come in judgment on the Jews when Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed in A.D. 70

Yes, just as with the priests of Jesus days, they are blind to the truth and don't want to see Jesus as who he is,

Matthew 10:23, Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they could go over all the cities of Israel with the gospel. The gospel has since been preached all throughout Israel, & continues to be so with christian television now, & still Jesus hasn't returned.

Verse 22 says that when they persecute them in one city they should flee to another and that that will not have gone over all the cities of Israel until the Son of man come. This is in the context of persecution, not in the context of spreading the gospel. When does this occur? We have some indication if we look earlier in the same section of the chapter:

Matt 10:16-23
16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. 21 Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
NKJV

This did not happen to the apostles. None of this happened at that point in time. These things did happen to Jesus but not to the apostles. What we see in this passage is an indication of the persecution to come upon the believers in the last days.



Mark 14:62, Jesus told the high priest that he would live to see Jesus' second coming. Of course the high priest died before Jesus returned. So there is two false prophecies made by Jesus. Any explanations ?

You added to this. Where did Jesus says that the high priest would personally live that long?

Mark 14:62-63
62 And Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."
NKJV

Look at this prophecy of the same event.

Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
NKJV

When this happens in the future, even those who pierced Him will see it. Nothing says that they need to be alive at the time. Every eye will see it.

Usually I do not respond to these because what I have found is that those who post these have found a long list on internet sites of supposed problems in the Bible, and usually, just like these, it is as easy as reading a few lines on one side or the other, or simply reading the context.

It is obvious from reading and rereading the New Testament(and reading Biblical scholar's work) that it has been altered many times due to the many contradictions and forgeries. There appears to be passages that have one kind of "Jesus" speaking totally contradictary to what another kind of Jesus speaks and stands for.

Briefly, one "Jesus", as described in the Bible, was a man who believed that he would return from the dead rather immediately and establish a his Kingdom on earth. Of course, that didn't happen.

Yes, I will agree that almost all of the early chistians beleiveed that he would come soon, just as the next and the next and the next generation.
Even today, our TV preachers have him coming back any day now.

WWI was the coming, then it was the a bomb, they it was social security numbers that was the sign of his coming. Each generation has its own. Christ has his own time as God does, we look at how many generations his people were slaves in Egypt before they were freed. And how long it was before Christ was sent

It is obvious from reading and rereading the New Testament(and reading Biblical scholar's work) that it has been altered many times due to the many contradictions and forgeries.

Many such claims are made, but I for one have yet to see evidence of a forgery or a contradiction.

PS to Choux's comment: Choux, I have studied the so-called contradictions, and have studied the history of how the Bible came to be, the history of the manuscripts, and the claims of changes. That is why I commented.

Yup

It is not normally forgeries, more than people not understanding what a ancient writer was meaning, the post yesterday about the "eye of a needle" is a good example, people now adays think sewing needle, not a gate in the wall of the city.

I often go back to early greek on the NT, where one can debate meanings, and also reference it to various study guiles

Verse 22 says that when they persecute them in one city they should flee to another and that that will not have gone over all the cities of Israel until the Son of man come. This is in the context of persecution, not in the context of spreading the gospel. When does this occur? We have some indication if we look earlier in the same section of the chapter:

Matt 10:16-23
16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. 21 Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
NKJV

This did not happen to the apostles. None of this happened at that point in time. These things did happen to Jesus but not to the apostles. What we see in this passage is an indication of the persecution to come upon the believers in the last days.



You added to this. Where did Jesus says that the high priest would personally live that long?

Mark 14:62-63
62 And Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."
NKJV

Look at this prophecy of the same event.

Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
NKJV

When this happens in the future, even those who pierced Him will see it. Nothing says that they need to be alive at the time. Every eye will see it.

Usually I do not respond to these because what I have found is that those who post these have found a long list on internet sites of supposed problems in the Bible, and usually, just like these, it is as easy as reading a few lines on one side or the other, or simply reading the context.All premillennial fundamentalist christians today distinguish two resurrections separated by a period of a thousand years, the first at the rapture for the righteous, the second at the great white throne following the destruction of the earth for the unrighteous. Only the righteous, living & dead, at the time of the second coming will Jesus coming in the clouds. The unrighteous dead will not see it, for they remain dead until the judgment of the great white throne. Therefore the high priest will not see Jesus coming in the clouds, yet Jesus told the high priest he would see it. The high priest, of course, did not see it as Jesus prophesied.

Matthew 10:23 --

NT prophecy ("eschatology") is predominantly preterist, i.e., fulfilled completely in the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70. (spiritual "coming"). In other words, not all "coming" passages are physical ones, i.e., refer to Christ's coming. This is a spiritual one.

Jesus is saying that he will come in judgment on the Jews when Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed in A.D. 70The fact remains, Jesus told the high priest he would see Jesus coming in the clouds. He didn't say to the high priest you will see Jerusalem surrounded by the armies of Rome, but you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven. There is nothing spiritual about that. Jesus meant the high priest would literally see him coming in the clouds. But this did not happen as Jesus prophesied.

The fact remains, Jesus told the high priest he would see Jesus coming in the clouds. He didn't say to the high priest you will see Jerusalem surrounded by the armies of Rome, but you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven. There is nothing spiritual about that. Jesus meant the high priest would literally see him coming in the clouds. But this did not happen as Jesus prophesied.

Just wondering,
Could this mean the coming of Jesus(alaihi salaam)near the end of the world?

All premillennial fundamentalist christians today distinguish two resurrections separated by a period of a thousand years, the first at the rapture for the righteous, the second at the great white throne following the destruction of the earth for the unrighteous. Only the righteous, living & dead, at the time of the second coming will Jesus coming in the clouds. The unrighteous dead will not see it, for they remain dead until the judgment of the great white throne. Therefore the high priest will not see Jesus coming in the clouds, yet Jesus told the high priest he would see it. The high priest, of course, did not see it as Jesus prophesied.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it has been skewed. The Bible (specifically the Book of Reveleation) does speak of the two resurrections, but again you make the assumption that only those who are alive at the time will see it happen. Scripture says that every eye will see it. It does not say only those living on the earth at the time.

A similar prophecy speaks of every knee bowing at the name of Christ, and it too clearly not just refer to those who are alive on earth at the time of the event.
Phil 2:9-11
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NKJV

Just wondering,
could this mean the coming of Jesus(alaihi salaam)near the end of the world?

It does in fact refer to the second coming of Christ.

Mark 13:24-27
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in heaven will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
NKJV

Dan 7:13-14
13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
NKJV

The fact remains, Jesus told the high priest he would see Jesus coming in the clouds. He didn't say to the high priest you will see Jerusalem surrounded by the armies of Rome, but you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven. There is nothing spiritual about that. Jesus meant the high priest would literally see him coming in the clouds. But this did not happen as Jesus prophesied.


What is your goal of posting this question, to gain a better understanding or answer, or just to "stir up the pot" On a separate post you clearly indicated that you do not believe in God. I am confident that every Christian would and could defend their faith and has already done an excellent job! If you are questioning your beliefs than be open to the other side and take it into consideration. If you are just here to stir things up than I think we all (defenders of our faith) need to be cautious.

What is your goal of posting this question, to gain a better understanding or answer, or just to "stir up the pot" On a seperate post you clearly indicated that you do not believe in God. I am confident that every Christian would and could defend their faith and has already done an excellent job! If you are questioning your beliefs than be open to the other side and take it into consideration. If you are just here to stir things up than I think we all (defenders of our faith) need to be cautious.You're wrong about me not believing in God. I am a deist, & deists believe in God, just not your evil bible god.

You're wrong about me not believing in God. I am a deist, & deists believe in God, just not your evil bible god.


If you don't believe in the so called "evil bible God" than why are you even asking questions about the Bible, Jesus, and prophesies?

If you don't believe in the so called "evil bible God" than why are you even asking questions about the Bible, Jesus, and prophesies?I show the absurdities of the bible for two reasons. One is to get christians to think about what they believe, the absurdities of it. God didn't give us a reasoning mind just so we would reject it in favor of taking things on faith alone. God gave us a mind to gather knowledge of his creation through observation & questions for the purpose of learning of God through It's only revelation, creation itself. The second & more important reason is because I'm battling the far right for freedom. The far right has an agenda, & it is to turn America, indeed, the world, into a totalitarian theocracy, getting rid of separation of church & state, free speech, freedom of religion, & where it's illegal to be anything but a christian. I have read direct quotes from the far right stating that they want to deny religious liberty to all non-christians. I read of at least one far right proponent who wants to bring back stoning to death of rebellious children. I don't mind freedom of religion & free speech, something we all have an inalienable right to, but the christian far right wants to get rid of both.

I show the absurdities of the bible for two reasons. One is to get christians to think about what they believe, the absurdities of it. God didn't give us a reasoning mind just so we would reject it in favor of taking things on faith alone. God gave us a mind to gather knowledge of his creation through observation & questions for the purpose of learning of God through It's only revelation, creation itself. The second & more important reason is because I'm battling the far right for freedom. The far right has an agenda, & it is to turn America, indeed, the world, into a totalitarian theocracy, getting rid of separation of church & state, free speech, freedom of religion, & where it's illegal to be anything but a christian. I have read direct quotes from the far right stating that they want to deny religious liberty to all non-christians. I read of at least one far right proponent who wants to bring back stoning to death of rebellious children. I don't mind freedom of religion & free speech, something we all have an inalienable right to, but the christian far right wants to get rid of both.


Thank you. The "far right agenda" that you describe is insane; I am completely against those things as well. Although I don't believe the Bible is at all absurb and still use my reasoning mind daily. We are all free to choose and live in a free country with certain rights.

I am only semi-familiar with Deism; what God do you believe in and who is Jesus to you? I am not concerned with the rules, etc just personally?

Thank you. The "far right agenda" that you describe is insane; I am completely against those things as well. Although I don't believe the Bible is at all absurb and still use my reasoning mind daily. We are all free to choose and live in a free country with certain rights.

I am only semi-familiar with Deism; what God do you believe in and who is Jesus to you? I am not concerned with the rules, etc just personally?I Believe in a God whose only miracle was in creating the universe. It doesn't intervene in the affairs of man. It hasn't given us any holy books, those are all man-made for the purpose of controlling others through fear. There was no Adam & Eve, more than two humans evolved simultaneously. So there is no original sin & no need for a savior. There is no devil or angels or demons, & Jesus is not God's son. I don't know if there is life after death or not, some deists believe there is, some don't. I believe that what is important to God is how well we treat one another & not what we believe. If you're a good person God doesn't care if you're a christian, a deist, a buddhist, or an atheist. If there is to be a judgment I believe it will be based on this.

I Believe in a God whose only miracle was in creating the universe. It doesn't intervene in the affairs of man. It hasn't given us any holy books, those are all man-made for the purpose of controlling others through fear. There was no Adam & Eve, more than two humans evolved simultaneously. So there is no original sin & no need for a savior. There is no devil or angels or demons, & Jesus is not God's son. I don't know if there is life after death or not, some deists believe there is, some don't. I believe that what is important to God is how well we treat one another & not what we believe. If you're a good person God doesn't care if you're a christian, a deist, a buddhist, or an atheist. If there is to be a judgment I believe it will be based on this.


OK. Why would God create a earth/universe and then just abandon it; not to care about the people or anything on it again.

That doesn't make sense to me, that would be like an artist creating an exquiste work of art and then covering it and putting it in the corner, never to look at again?

What reasoning brought you to this conclusion/your belief?

OK. Why would God create a earth/universe and then just abandon it; not to care about the people or anything on it again.

That doesn't make sense to me, that would be like an artist creating an exquiste work of art and then covering it and putting it in the corner, never to look at again?

What reasoning brought you to this conclusion/your belief?I find that reality as it really is lines up more with the teachings of deism than with those of the bible. I've been a christian, & I learned over more than 27 years of personal experience that the bible doesn't line up with reality.

I find that reality as it really is lines up more with the teachings of deism than with those of the bible. I've been a christian, & I learned over more than 27 years of personal experience that the bible doesn't line up with reality.


Maybe not the reality as we see it in our finite minds? How does the Bible not line up with reality? You say you were a christian (follower of Christ) for 27 years and abadoned it and now don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, then did you ever believe in that? Do you believe in "once saved always saved"

Maybe not the reality as we see it in our finite minds? How does the Bible not line up with reality? You say you were a christian (follower of Christ) for 27 years and abadoned it and now don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, then did you ever believe in that? Do you believe in "once saved always saved"Seeing as I no longer believe in the bible I do not believe any longer that Jesus is divine in any way. As a christian I believed in the perseverance of the saints, but as I said, I no longer believe the bible. The bible says if you pray to the bible god according to his will he hears & answers. That was not my experience, in reality as it really is not one of my thousands of prayers prayed over those more than 27 years were answered. Deism answers for me the questions that the bible couldn't answer.

Seeing as I no longer believe in the bible I do not believe any longer that Jesus is divine in any way. As a christian I believed in the perseverance of the saints, but as I said, I no longer believe the bible. The bible says if you pray to the bible god according to his will he hears & answers. That was not my experience, in reality as it really is not one of my thousands of prayers prayed over those more than 27 years were answered. Deism answers for me the questions that the bible couldn't answer.


It sounds like it was a difficult 27 years for you? I know it sucks that prayers sometimes don't come when and how we want them to or for what we think are the most important things.

Seeing as I no longer believe in the bible I do not believe any longer that Jesus is divine in any way. As a christian I believed in the perseverance of the saints, but as I said, I no longer believe the bible. The bible says if you pray to the bible god according to his will he hears & answers. That was not my experience, in reality as it really is not one of my thousands of prayers prayed over those more than 27 years were answered. Deism answers for me the questions that the bible couldn't answer.

I would be interested in why you believe that your prayers were not answered. Remember, God is not a slave who must do what we ask, so often the answer is not the answer that we hoped for. I have had many times in my life when the answer that I wanted did not come, but God answered in a way that I would have never thought about.

Also, the answer may be "no". Do you have children? Have you ever seen a case where they wanted something so badly that they thought that they needed it, but you knew that it would not be good for them, so you said no? God, as a good and caring God, know what is best for us also, and often, despite our pleading, also has to say "no".

I would be interested in why you believe that your prayers were not answered. Remember, God is not a slave who must do what we ask, so often the answer is not the answer that we hoped for. I have had many times in my life when the answer that I wanted did not come, but God answered in a way that I would have never thought about.

Also, the answer may be "no". Do you have children? Have you ever seen a case where they wanted something so badly that they thought that they needed it, but you knew that it would not be good for them, so you said no? God, as a good and caring God, know what is best for us also, and often, despite our pleading, also has to say "no".See the thread "christian prayer" & my question there which started the thread.

How do christians explain Jesus' failed prophecies ? Here are only two among several.
Matthew 10:23, Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they could go over all the cities of Israel with the gospel. The gospel has since been preached all throughout Israel, & continues to be so with christian television now, & still Jesus hasn't returned.
Mark 14:62, Jesus told the high priest that he would live to see Jesus' second coming. Of course the high priest died before Jesus returned.
So there is two false prophecies made by Jesus. Any explanations ?
Consider the possibility that Jesus was referring to his resurrection. You look at things with a closed mind trying to relate millennial prophesies to other prophesies

I show the absurdities of the bible for two reasons. One is to get christians to think about what they believe, the absurdities of it. God didn't give us a reasoning mind just so we would reject it in favor of taking things on faith alone. God gave us a mind to gather knowledge of his creation through observation & questions for the purpose of learning of God through It's only revelation, creation itself. The second & more important reason is because I'm battling the far right for freedom. The far right has an agenda, & it is to turn America, indeed, the world, into a totalitarian theocracy, getting rid of separation of church & state, free speech, freedom of religion, & where it's illegal to be anything but a christian. I have read direct quotes from the far right stating that they want to deny religious liberty to all non-christians. I read of at least one far right proponent who wants to bring back stoning to death of rebellious children. I don't mind freedom of religion & free speech, something we all have an inalienable right to, but the christian far right wants to get rid of both.
Friend, this statement is utterly ridiculous! You have exposed your ageda. If Christians wanted to have enforced "Christianity" they could have done so at the founding of this nation, in as much as nearly all of the founders believed in Jesus Christ. It is absured to think that Christians would attempt to enforce their beliefs on olthers, because it is impossible to be a Christian unless one wants to be one. Is it possible that you want is to silence any voice that dares to point out your sin for what it is?

Friend, this statement is utterly ridiculous! You have exposed your ageda. If Christians wanted to have enforced "Christianity" they could have done so at the founding of this nation, in as much as nearly all of the founders believed in Jesus Christ. It is absured to think that Christians would attempt to enforce their beliefs on olthers, because it is impossible to be a Christian unless one wants to be one. Is it possible that you want is to silence any voice that dares to point out your sin for what it is?You have a skewed understanding of the founding of the US, no doubt propagated by the far right. Most of the founding fathers were deists, masons, & unitarians. Few were christians. If you doubt my words then maybe you ought to read article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli, signed by president John Adams himself & ratified by congress in 1797. Article 11 in part reads that the US government is in NO sense founded on the christian religion. The US was founded as a secular nation. Why do you think the constitution guarantees separation of church & state ?

After Christ was killed on the cross and sealed in the tomb, he appeared to them after three days.
You are correct that a lot of the founding fathers were not Christians but they had no problem with Christains or anyone believing as they wished to believe.
May the force be with you.

After Christ was killed on the cross and sealed in the tomb, he appeared to them after three days.
You are correct that a lot of the founding fathers were not Christians but they had no problem with Christains or anyone believing as they wished to believe.
May the force be with you.I have a problem with anyone who wants to turn America into a totalitarian theocracy where it is illegal to be anything other than christian, & that's what the far right wants.

Just as testimonial... Ever since I started asking and praying sincerely, so far I've had many if almost all of my prayers answered.

Im very new! If you can go answer my question though I would appreciate it so much!!To whom are you speaking, & what is the question ?

You're wrong about me not believing in God. I am a deist, & deists believe in God, just not your evil bible god.
Jesus Christ is the God of the Bible. Promised to Eve, prophecied about by the O.T. prophets, conceived by the Holy Ghost, identified by the angel Gabriel as "God with us". Jesus identified Himself as the Son of God, and claimed equality with God. ("I and the Father are one") expressing complete unity with the Father. He proved His claims by His control over natural forces, unclean spirits, sickness and death. Then this God that you call "evil" volunteered to endure a Roman flogging and death by crucifixion, probably the most brutal death ever conceived by the mind of man, so that all mankind (including yourself) would not have to suffer eternal judgment. He arose from the dead to seal the deal. What evil do you see here? You owe Him an apology. Now I understand that you believe none of this despite multiple correaborating records, but your unbelief affects no one but you.

Jesus Christ is the God of the Bible. Promised to Eve, prophecied about by the O.T. prophets, conceived by the Holy Ghost, identified by the angel Gabriel as "God with us". Jesus identified Himself as the Son of God, and claimed equality with God. ("I and the Father are one") expressing complete unity with the Father. He proved His claims by His control over natural forces, unclean spirits, sickness and death. Then this God that you call "evil" volunteered to endure a Roman flogging and death by crucifixion, probably the most brutal death ever conceived by the mind of man, so that all mankind (including yourself) would not have to suffer eternal judgment. He arose from the dead to seal the deal. What evil do you see here? You owe Him an apology. Now I understand that you believe none of this despite multiple correaborating records, but your unbelief affects no one but you.Where is your multiple corraborating records ? There are none outside the bible. You are guilty of using the bible to prove the bible & that is circular reasoning. Nowhere in the New Testament does the angel Gabriel call Jesus Immanuel (god with us), in fact, nowhere in the entire New Testament is Jesus called Immanuel outside Matthew's reference to a prophecy that didn't even refer to Jesus, but to Isaiah's own son born by a prophetess (probably his wife). The evil bible god drowned millions of young children & unborn babies, who had committed no personal sins, who didn't even understand the concept of good or evil. The evil bible god says, It's my way or hell damnit ! He sounds like a mean bully throwing a tantrum. You have been brainwashed by fundamentalism. The true God is good, nothing at all like the evil bible god.

Jesus was referring to the Holly Spirit which is the spirit of God/jesus. All the proffecies of Jesus' first coming were fulfilled to the T. theses were written many years before his birth and they all came to pass. All the prophesies of his second coming have also been fulfilled including the creation of the country Isreal which happened in 1946 after the first world war. So jesus can come anytime, even now as I type but the Bible says not even the Angels know only God Knows. Jesus talks of the signs of his coming he does not give a timeframe!

Correction creation of isreal was after the 2nd world war

Diest the only thing I can say to you is you can not receive and/or know Christ through reasoning! It is by FAITH. If you know him like I know Him and how he has transformed my life then you would not be arguing in circles. Has taken me from death and has brought me life. He said " i came that you may have life and have it more abandantly" that verse came alive in my own life and that is all the evidence I need. I don't need to investgate fossil records and do extensive research to prove his claims. The personal encounter I have had with him is how I KNOW he is Truth and he is GOD! My God and I love him and one day I will see his face and thank him for all he has done for me.

Jesus was reffering to the Holly Spirit which is the spirit of God/jesus. All the proffecies of Jesus' first coming were fulfilled to the T. theses were written many years before his birth and they all came to pass. All the prophesies of his second coming have also been fulfilled including the creation of the country Isreal which happened in 1946 after the first world war. So jesus can come anytime, even now as i type but the Bible says not even the Angels know only God Knows. Jesus talks of the signs of his coming he does not give a timeframe!The so-called signs Jesus gave of the end times, earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, have been occurring all throughout history, even long before Jesus came on the scene. Israel was not reestablished in 1946, it was May 14, 1948, & all the alleged Old Testament prophecies of a rebirth of Israel were made before or during the Babylonian captivity. The prophets did not have 1948 in mind at all, the so-called prophecies of Israels rebirth referred to the return from captivity in Babylon under the Persian king Cyrus.

Where is your multiple corraborating records ? There are none outside the bible. You are guilty of using the bible to prove the bible & that is circular reasoning. Nowhere in the New Testament does the angel Gabriel call Jesus Immanuel (god with us), in fact, nowhere in the entire New Testament is Jesus called Immanuel outside Matthew's reference to a prophecy that didn't even refer to Jesus, but to Isaiah's own son born by a prophetess (probably his wife). The evil bible god drowned millions of young children & unborn babies, who had committed no personal sins, who didn't even understand the concept of good or evil. The evil bible god says, It's my way or hell damnit ! He sounds like a mean bully throwing a tantrum. You have been brainwashed by fundamentalism. The true God is good, nothing at all like the evil bible god.
Well, you're right it wasn't Gabriel. It was:
Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(KJV)

I hardly think Isaiah's son was born of a virgin, do you? You answered not a word about any proofs of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Since the Bible is the pre-eminent book of things relating to Jesus, which one would you prefer? Josephus records facts about Jesus, and there are problbly others. The Bible record is that of eye witnesses. You parrot charges of forgeries, etc. which go back probably to when the ink was still wet on the scroll, but no one has successfully proven the Bible false. Voltaire tried and failed and someone named Ingersoll (I think) who was supposed to be such a wise atheist tried and failed, etc, et al. Do you stand by your statement that Jesus is evil? You are more political than religious in this, in that you keep coming back to some fundamentalist or right wing conspiracy. Explain why leftists of various shades of red and pink have for generations been trying to turn our republic into a socilist state and that's OK with you but now that the majority of U.S. citizens are waking up and becoming politically knowledgeable and active you scream conspiracy.

deist, I want to say something about your obvious reference to the flood of Noah. Since you don't believe the Bible, what makes you think God drowned anyone? For the benefit of others reading this I offer some thoughts about Noah's flood and the reason for it. It was not a temper tantrum. God promised a seed (son) to Eve who would crush the serpent's (Satan) head. Most of the O.T. from that point forward is a record of God keeping that promise. The Genesis record shows that by Noah's time he was the only one left with both a righteous life style and proper genealogy from Adam. The human race had been mongrelized by fallen angels, with the intent of breaking God's word. If that had been possible, the God would not be almighty. To keep the lineage of Messiah going, the civilization of that day had to be destroyed. I surely do expect some remarks about this!

Whoa, Wow. That's really... Not true. God is love. In Which there is no evil to be found.

I used a bible commentary:

Mark 14:62

"after speaking of His deity, Jesus immediately refers to His humanity, using a phrase from Daniel 7:13, which speaks of Messiah's humanity."- Jon Courson.

Actually I have no clue what that means but I thought I would add it, in case any of you guys did. What I believe he is talking about is the rapture.

Amen!

Yes! Yes!

Where is your multiple corraborating records ? There are none outside the bible. You are guilty of using the bible to prove the bible & that is circular reasoning. Nowhere in the New Testament does the angel Gabriel call Jesus Immanuel (god with us), in fact, nowhere in the entire New Testament is Jesus called Immanuel outside Matthew's reference to a prophecy that didn't even refer to Jesus, but to Isaiah's own son born by a prophetess (probably his wife). The evil bible god drowned millions of young children & unborn babies, who had committed no personal sins, who didn't even understand the concept of good or evil. The evil bible god says, It's my way or hell damnit ! He sounds like a mean bully throwing a tantrum. You have been brainwashed by fundamentalism. The true God is good, nothing at all like the evil bible god.

Why do you keep saying "evil bible god"? He is love and there is on evil at all!



The so-called signs Jesus gave of the end times, earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, have been occurring all throughout history, even long before Jesus came on the scene. Israel was not reestablished in 1946, it was May 14, 1948, & all the alleged Old Testament prophecies of a rebirth of Israel were made before or during the Babylonian captivity. The prophets did not have 1948 in mind at all, the so-called prophecies of Israels rebirth referred to the return from captivity in Babylon under the Persian king Cyrus.

The rapture comes beofore the rebuilding of Isreal.

Well, you're right it wasn't Gabriel. It was:
Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(KJV)

I hardly think Isaiah's son was born of a virgin, do you? You answered not a word about any proofs of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Since the Bible is the pre-eminent book of things relating to Jesus, which one would you prefer? Josephus records facts about Jesus, and there are problbly others. The Bible record is that of eye witnesses. You parrot charges of forgeries, etc. which go back probably to when the ink was still wet on the scroll, but no one has successfully proven the Bible false. Voltaire tried and failed and someone named Ingersoll (I think) who was supposed to be such a wise atheist tried and failed, etc, et al. Do you stand by your statement that Jesus is evil? You are more political than religious in this, in that you keep coming back to some fundamentalist or right wing conspiricy. Explain why leftists of various shades of red and pink have for generations been trying to turn our republic into a socilist state and that's ok with you but now that the majority of U.S. citizens are waking up and becoming politically knowledgeable and active you scream conspiricy.I never said Jesus was evil. I said the bible god was evil. Jesus is not God, he was just a man. Josephus only mentions Jesus twice I believe, & both instances are suspect. I'm not for communism, but the 1st century church was. The early church was neither a democracy nor a republic.

deist, I want to say something about your obvious reference to the flood of Noah. Since you don't believe the Bible, what makes you think God drowned anyone? For the benefit of others reading this I offer some thoughts about Noah's flood and the reason for it. It was not a temper tantrum. God promised a seed (son) to Eve who would crush the serpent's (Satan) head. Most of the O.T. from that point forward is a record of God keeping that promise. The Genesis record shows that by Noah's time he was the only one left with both a righteous life style and proper geneology from Adam. The human race had been mongrelized by fallen angels, with the intent of breaking God's word. If that had been possible, the God would not be almighty. To keep the lineage of Messiah going, the civilization of that day had to be destroyed. I surely do expect some remarks about this!God didn't drown anyone, the true God wouldn't do that, but the bible god would. And the view that the sons of God in Genesis being fallen angels is not generally believed by the vast majority of Bible scholars.

Why do you keep saying "evil bible god"? He is love and there is on evil at all!




The rapture comes beofore the rebuilding of Isreal.I stand by my statement that the bible god is evil. Israel became a nation in 1948. Are you saying the rapture occurred prior to 1948 ? If so, no one would agree with you.

The so-called signs Jesus gave of the end times, earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, have been occuring all throughout history, even long before Jesus came on the scene. Israel was not reestablished in 1946, it was May 14, 1948, & all the alleged Old Testament prophecies of a rebirth of Israel were made before or during the Babylonian captivity. The prophets did not have 1948 in mind at all, the so-called prophecies of Israels rebirth referred to the return from captivity in Babylon under the Persian king Cyrus.

I would like to point out that each of these times the signs come it is a warning for those who believe in Jesus(alaihi salaams)returns and to mend their ways.

It is a sign,which necessarily does not mean that it will happen exactly as we expect or when we expect it.
It just means that we have to be always prepared for that day to know and understand the truth.
I am sure there have been many in this world who have passed away hoping to see this day and find the truth,but each of our lives are on a limited time and when the time comes we cannot be here on earth to see prophesies fulfilled.
And remember that time to the Almighty is not on our scale and He is not effected by our measurement of time.
He says the Hour will come when all will be judged and before this Jesus (alaihi salaam) will descend.

Deist, if you believe in the Almighty, why do you believe that the One you believe and we believe are two different Gods.There is only One God, and has been only One from the beginning and will be One till the end and beyond.

Instead of picking and choosing from the scriptures,why not really study them all to understand what is common in the three monotheistic faiths books and try to keep an open mind.
I know you do not believe in revealed books,but as you are already looking to prove them false why not really study them thoroughly.
Find out what is common in all of them,maybe it will help you see from a different perspective.

Sorry to all christians here if I said anything offensive,but as I do agree with you that Jesus(alaihi salaam) will descend near the end times, I just wanted to put in my two cents.

I stand by my statement that the bible god is evil. Israel became a nation in 1948. Are you saying the rapture occured prior to 1948 ? If so, no one would agree with you.

Where exactly are you getting this stuff from? Is there a website somewhere that makes these claims? Who ever said that the rapture would occur before Israel became a nation again?

To be honest, I have been following a lot of what you have been saying and the claims that you have been making, things that you claim that the Bible says, simply cannot be substantiated by even a cursory reading of the relevant passages.

The so-called signs Jesus gave of the end times, earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, have been occuring all throughout history, even long before Jesus came on the scene. Israel was not reestablished in 1946, it was May 14, 1948, & all the alleged Old Testament prophecies of a rebirth of Israel were made before or during the Babylonian captivity. The prophets did not have 1948 in mind at all, the so-called prophecies of Israels rebirth referred to the return from captivity in Babylon under the Persian king Cyrus.
Deist: Its funny how you did not respond to my answers that talked about the way Jesus has transformed my life, you could only try to discount me on an interlectual level. That is because there is no way you can say that Jesus has not transformed lives. Mine in particular. That is the real evidence. Nothing you can say or anyone else can change my faith in Him because I have seen what he has done. If you did more research you would find out that He is Lord. If you open up you heart ask him to reveal himself to you he will. I promise you. There are over 500 witnesses of his resurection. Do you really think that many people would make that up? And if they did make it up don't you think that they would have also made up that he came back again "as he promised" a few years later just to complete their "story"? So if you are a Diest and you think there is a god just not the one in the Bible then the god you believe in is more evil because he won't even make himself known to you or to man, his creation. The old testament is filled with prophesies of the coming of the mesiah. These were written by (with historical evidence) men who lived centuaries before Christ was born. They detailed his birth place, the way he would die e.t.c long before he lived and He fulfilled all those prophesies. Isaih said long before Christ. " he was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquites and chastised for our peace and by the stripes on his back we have been healed" and all that has been documented even in non biblical findings to have happened. So how do explain that? God is love and he love YOU diest as if you were the only man he ever created. He is calling out to you to receive him through His son Jesus whom he sent to take your place in death. God is a God of principle Holy and with out blame. He can not ignore sin because of his holyness and the only thing that removes sin is blood with out the shedding of blood there is not remmission for sin. That is why christ died as a sacrifies and through his blood we have become reconciled to God. Because of Christ we can come boldly into the presence of God because His blood has made us Rightous. We stand before GOd blameless. God loves you and it hurts him to see you discount him and call him evil. He loves you and wants to have personal relationship with him. So please diest just open your heart and let God show himself to you!

Deist: Its funny how you did not respond to my answers that talked about the way Jesus has transformed my life, you could only try to discount me on an interlectual level. That is because there is no way you can say that Jesus has not transformed lives. Mine in particular. That is the real evidence. Nothing you can say or anyone else can change my faith in Him because i have seen what he has done. If you did more research you would find out that He is Lord. If you open up you heart ask him to reveal himself to you he will. I promise you. there are over 500 witnesses of his resurection. Do you really think that many people would make that up? and if they did make it up dont you think that they would have also made up that he came back again "as he promised" a few years later just to complete their "story"? So if you are a Diest and you think there is a god just not the one in the Bible then the god you beleive in is more evil because he wont even make himself known to you or to man, his creation. The old testament is filled with prophesies of the coming of the mesiah. These were written by (with historical evidence) men who lived centuaries before Christ was born. They detailed his birth place, the way he would die e.t.c long before he lived and He fulfilled all those prophesies. Isaih said long before Christ. " he was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquites and chastised for our peace and by the stripes on his back we have been healed" and all that has been documented even in non biblical findings to have happened. So how do explain that? God is love and he love YOU diest as if you were the only man he ever created. He is calling out to you to recieve him through His son Jesus whom he sent to take your place in death. God is a God of principle Holy and with out blame. He can not ignore sin because of his holyness and the only thing that removes sin is blood with out the shedding of blood there is not remmission for sin. that is why christ died as a sacrifies and through his blood we have become reconciled to God. Because of Christ we can come boldly into the presence of God because His blood has made us Rightous. We stand before GOd blameless. God loves you and it hurts him to see you discount him and call him evil. He loves you and wants to have personal relationship with him. So plse diest just open your heart and let God show himself to you!The changes in your life can be attributed to positive thinking. People who follow different religions have also experienced a change in life. How do you account for that ? They feel their particular religion has made them better people too.

Where exactly are you getting this stuff from? Is there a website somewhere that makes these claims? Who ever said that the rapture would occur before Israel became a nation again?

To be honest, I have been following a lot of what you have been saying and the claims that you have been making, things that you claim that the Bible says, simply cannot be substantiated by even a cursory reading of the relevant passages.I'm not getting it from any website. Fallen2grace who is a member here said the rapture is to occur before the rebuilding of Israel. I was just asking him or her if the rapture has already occurred then ? Read all the posts before you comment.

The changes in your life can be attributed to positive thinking. People who follow different religions have also experienced a change in life. How do you account for that ? They feel their particular religion has made them better people too.

It matters not what other people of other religions or even the same religion think, feel or believe. What we as individuals think, feel and believe is our own evidence. Be it the belief in God or not. The point is that no one can refute what each of us feels to be true and correct because it is our own. Tatertot said, "That is the real evidence." And he is correct. The Bible alone is not all the evidence Christian's have. Matter of fact the Bible as we all know is not undeniable evidence. Our undeniable evidence comes from God within us revealing the Truth. This evidence cannot be refuted.

It matters not what other people of other religions or even the same religion think, feel or believe. What we as individuals think, feel and believe is our own evidence. Be it the belief in God or not. The point is that no one can refute what each of us feels to be true and correct because it is our own. Tatertot said, "That is the real evidence." And he is correct. The Bible alone is not all the evidence Christian's have. Matter of fact the Bible as we all know is not undeniable evidence. Our undeniable evidence comes from God within us revealing the Truth. This evidence cannot be refuted.Yes that evidence can be refuted. Positive thinking can do many things to a person's life, so can faith, which is just another form of positive thinking. I can worship a cow or a tree, & if I have enough faith in it, & believe it is somehow witnessing to my spirit, that can affect all kinds of changes in my life. In fact, if I pray to the cow or the tree, I'll get just as many alleged answers to my prayers as christians get from their god.

It matters not what other people of other religions or even the same religion think, feel or believe. What we as individuals think, feel and believe is our own evidence. Be it the belief in God or not. The point is that no one can refute what each of us feels to be true and correct because it is our own. Tatertot said, "That is the real evidence." And he is correct. The Bible alone is not all the evidence Christian's have. Matter of fact the Bible as we all know is not undeniable evidence. Our undeniable evidence comes from God within us revealing the Truth. This evidence cannot be refuted.Also, you're saying the evidence is subjective to the individual, & not objective. It's not very good evidence if it can't be objectively verified.

Also, you're saying the evidence is subjective to the individual, & not objective. It's not very good evidence if it can't be objectively verified.

Again, it does not matter whether you think it is good enough evidence or not. The proof I see and feel is all the evidence I need to know that God exist. It's good enough for ME. Whether it is good enough for you or anyone else means nothing to me.

I can talk until I am blue in the face. I can explain and show you all day long how and why I believe the way I do, but if you are not open to it you will never see it. God can not show you truth if you do not want to see it. This is what tatertot was saying in his earlier post.

Again, it does not matter whether you think it is good enough evidence or not. The proof I see and feel is all the evidence I need to know that God exist. It's good enough for ME. Whether it is good enough for you or anyone else means nothing to me.How many times do I have to tell you christians that I believe in a God, just not your evil bible god or the evil Muslim god.

Most believers have a lot of trouble discussion Christianity without being overly emotional.

Have a good weekend, deist!

Most believers have a lot of trouble discussion Christianity without being overly emotional.

Have a good weekend, deist!


Wouldn't you get "over emotional"?

Most believers have a lot of trouble discussion Christianity without being overly emotional.

Have a good weekend, deist!You have a good weekend too.

Positive thinking has never been shown to account for such life transformations as those that Jesus does. Positive thinking does not take the addict from the gutter and make her into a good mother with a college degree. Only Jesus is able to make such dramatic changes in lives.
The changes in your life can be attributed to positive thinking. People who follow different religions have also experienced a change in life. How do you account for that ? They feel their particular religion has made them better people too.

What do you belive in? What helps you get through your day? what makes it all ok so that you sleep at night? What will happen to you when you die? Do you know where you are going to spend eternity?
Yes that evidence can be refuted. Positive thinking can do many things to a person's life, so can faith, which is just another form of positive thinking. I can worship a cow or a tree, & if I have enough faith in it, & believe it is somehow witnessing to my spirit, that can affect all kinds of changes in my life. In fact, if I pray to the cow or the tree, I'll get just as many alleged answers to my prayers as christians get from their god.

What do you belive in? What helps you get through your day? what makes it all ok so that you sleep at night? What will happen to you when you die? Do you know where you are going to spend eternity?I'm not worried about eternity at all. I'm concerned with living this life. Eternity will take care of itself. If there is a heaven, it will be filled with good people whether they were Muslim, Christian, Jehovah's Witness, Agnostic, Atheist, Deist, Pantheist, or any other religion of man.

Positive thinking does not take the addict from the gutter and make her into a good mother with a college degree. Only Jesus is able to make such dramatic changes in lives.I've noticed that the ones that are the biggest bible thumpers are the ones that abused drugs or alcohol yet the atheists never seem to have made those choices. I wonder if there's a link.

I'm not worried about eternity at all. I'm concerned with living this life. Eternity will take care of itself. If there is a heaven, it will be filled with good people whether they were Muslim, Christian, Jehovah's Witness, Agnostic, Atheist, Deist, Pantheist, or any other religion of man.

Matt 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
NKJV

John 14:5-6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Daily Devotional by Max Lucado

"the One who came still comes and the One who spoke still speaks"



October 13
If people want to follow me, they must give up the things they want. They must be willing even to give up their lives to follow me.

Mark 8:34


On one side stands the crowd. Jeering. Baiting. Demanding.
On the other stands a peasant. Swollen lips. Lumpy eye. Lofty promise.



One promises acceptance, the other a cross.
One offers flesh and flash, the other offers faith.


The crowd challenges, "Follow us and fit in."
Jesus promises, "Follow me and stand out."


They promise to please. God promises to save.
God looks at you and asks, "Which will be your choice?"



A Gentle Thunder
Max Lucado

©2000 - 2007
Courtesy
Oak Hills Church

San Antonio, Texas

And NET-IMS, Inc.

“Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise. Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.”- Proverbs 19:20-21

The efforts of this world will all fail in the end. Not all will enter Heaven.

Matthew 7:13-1413 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

John 12:25
He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.



I'm not worried about eternity at all. I'm concerned with living this life. Eternity will take care of itself. If there is a heaven, it will be filled with good people whether they were Muslim, Christian, Jehovah's Witness, Agnostic, Atheist, Deist, Pantheist, or any other religion of man.

“Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise. Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.”- Proverbs 19:20-21

The efforts of this world will all fail in the end. Not all will enter Heaven.

Matthew 7:13-1413 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

John 12:25
He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.


This all coming from a book that says the earth is flat, covered over with a dome, & doesn't rotate.

This all coming from a book that says the earth is flat, covered over with a dome, & doesn't rotate.

Again, you make these unjustified, unvalidated claims, and no matter whether you are shown otherwise, you keep coming back to the same claims.

How do christians explain Jesus' failed prophecies ? Here are only two among several.
Matthew 10:23, Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they could go over all the cities of Israel with the gospel. The gospel has since been preached all throughout Israel, & continues to be so with christian television now, & still Jesus hasn't returned.
Mark 14:62, Jesus told the high priest that he would live to see Jesus' second coming. Of course the high priest died before Jesus returned.
So there is two false prophecies made by Jesus. Any explanations ?
Back to your original question: Let me give you short answers to both prophecies. Unfulfilled prophecies is not the same as failed prophecies. The high priest will see Jesus at whichever resurrection he is in. The Apostles didn't get to all the villages in Israel in their lifetimes because persecution scattered them over all the known world. Now how about you explaining the fulfilled prophecies that Jesus gave? Only God knows the future. Just off the top of my head without giving you a lengthy list of scripture references try these on for size. Jesus fortold: His death; the way He would be killed; that He would be betrayed by one of His Apostles; He indicatated who that would be; He fortold Peter's denial; He fortold how long He would be in the tomb; He fortold the general time and method of Peter's death; In Matthew ch. 24 He plainly said that earthquakes, famines, wars, etc were not the sign of the end, but that the gospel would be preached in all the world, which has happened and continues to happen; He fortold the destruction of Jeursalem and the Temple; He told how believers in Jerusalem could escape that destruction (they did) He said the time frame for that destruction was to be in their generation (it was); He told them that His followers would receive the Holy Ghost (they did). There! If Jesus is not God the Son, how did He know these things? And if He is not alive, how have the Penetcostals historically and currently been filled with the Holy Spirit, healed the sick, and in some instances raised the dead? You have nothing but an empty argument. I've answered your question. You're welcome!

I show the absurdities of the bible for two reasons. One is to get christians to think about what they believe, the absurdities of it. God didn't give us a reasoning mind just so we would reject it in favor of taking things on faith alone. God gave us a mind to gather knowledge of his creation through observation & questions for the purpose of learning of God through It's only revelation, creation itself. The second & more important reason is because I'm battling the far right for freedom. The far right has an agenda, & it is to turn America, indeed, the world, into a totalitarian theocracy, getting rid of separation of church & state, free speech, freedom of religion, & where it's illegal to be anything but a christian. I have read direct quotes from the far right stating that they want to deny religious liberty to all non-christians. I read of at least one far right proponent who wants to bring back stoning to death of rebellious children. I don't mind freedom of religion & free speech, something we all have an inalienable right to, but the christian far right wants to get rid of both.
All you people on the far left seem to share the same "Rosie" mentality. You have a paranoid fear of evangelical Christianity. Homeland Security is not busy protecting us from militant Christians, but militant Muslims who have openly told us that if they get their way we will either convert or die. Your paranoia is selective and hypocritial. You know all this. Christians have no plans to form totoalitarian governments, but Islam sure wants to put you under their totalitarianism! But you are not concerned about that, right? Enough of this right-wing conspiracy garbage. Get real.

Again, you make these unjustified, unvalidated claims, and no matter whether you are shown otherwise, you keep coming back to the same claims.
Apparently you don't know what a firmament is in the bible, & you're not aware of the many verses in the bible that says the earth is established that it cannot move. Go back to school & learn some more.

All you people on the far left seem to share the same "Rosie" mentality. You have a paranoid fear of evangelical Christianity. Homeland Security is not busy protecting us from militant Christians, but militant Muslims who have openly told us that if they get their way we will either convert or die. Your paranoia is selective and hypocritial. You know all this. Christians have no plans to form totoalitarian governments, but Islam sure wants to put you under their totalitarianism! But you are not concerned about that, right? Enough of this right-wing conspiricy garbage. Get real.Apparently you have never heard of the reconstructionists, also called the dominionists. You get real. Wake up & see reality. And while you're at it Google dominionists or reconstructionists.

Apparently you don't know what a firmament is in the bible, & you're not aware of the many verses in the bible that says the earth is established that it cannot move. Go back to school & learn some more.

I am very aware of what the Bible says, and you claims do not change what it says.

Apparently you have never heard of the reconstructionists, also called the dominionists. You get real. Wake up & see reality. And while you're at it google dominionists or reconstructionists.

These groups are considered to be in heresy or error. They do not reflect Biblical Christianity.

Back to your original question: Let me give you short answers to both prophecies. Unfulfilled prophecies is not the same as failed prophecies. The high priest will see Jesus at whichever resurrection he is in. The Apostles didn't get to all the villages in Israel in their lifetimes because persecution scattered them over all the known world. Now how about you explaining the fulfilled prophecies that Jesus gave? Only God knows the future. Just off the top of my head without giving you a lengthy list of scripture references try these on for size. Jesus fortold: His death; the way He would be killed; that He would be betrayed by one of His Apostles; He indicatated who that would be; He fortold Peter's denial; He fortold how long He would be in the tomb; He fortold the general time and method of Peter's death; In Matthew ch. 24 He plainly said that earthquakes, famines, wars, etc were not the sign of the end, but that the gospel would be preached in all the world, which has happened and continues to happen; He fortold the destruction of Jeursalem and the Temple; He told how believers in Jerusalem could escape that destruction (they did) He said the time frame for that destruction was to be in their generation (it was); He told them that His followers would receive the Holy Ghost (they did). There! If Jesus is not God the Son, how did He know these things? And if He is not alive, how have the Penetcostals historically and currently been filled with the Holy Spirit, healed the sick, and in some instances raised the dead? You have nothing but an empty argument. I've answered your question. You're welcome!Jesus didn't write the gospel, so we don't know what he really said about anything. We just have other men's claims of what Jesus said... hearsay. I can write a book & put all kinds of fantastic things in it & claim it is true. I've not seen or heard of one christian outside the questionable New Testament who has healed the sick or raised the dead. That's because it doesn't happen. No one has the power to raise the dead, & only doctors have the ability to heal the sick through medicine. If you know a faith healer that can really heal the sick send him my way, I can test his power. Your claims are unfounded & ridiculous.

These groups are considered to be in heresy or error. they do not reflect Biblical Christianity.The reconstructionists have already infiltrated politics & government. If they achieve total power anyone who does not agree with them will be executed as idolaters, including non-reconstructionist christians.

The reconstructionists have already infiltrated politics & government. If they acheive total power anyone who does not agree with them will be executed as idolaters, including non-reconstructionist christians.

No doubt, but they are not Christians. Just because a person claims to be a Christian does not make them one.

Matt 7:21-22
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
NKJV

No doubt, but they are not Christians. Just because a person claims to be a Christian does not make them one.This I will agree with.

Jesus didn't write the gospel, so we don't know what he really said about anything. We just have other men's claims of what Jesus said...hearsay. I can write a book & put all kinds of fantastic things in it & claim it is true. I've not seen or heard of one christian outside the questionable New Testament who has healed the sick or raised the dead. That's because it doesn't happen. No one has the power to raise the dead, & only doctors have the ability to heal the sick through medicine. If you know a faith healer that can really heal the sick send him my way, I can test his power. Your claims are unfounded & ridiculous.
You are a typical liberal; mind closed and intellecetually dishonest. You select bits from the Bible that you can take out of context or alter to attempt to prove your point, discredit the Bible, and vilify the God of the Bible, but when anyone else appeals to scripture to prove you wrong, youi dismiss their proof out of hand because it comes from the Bible. There is no such thing as a "faith healer". When the Gospel is preached correctly, some will be healed in comfirmation of that Gospel. I have seen people healed of various things for most of my life. You have never heard of one because you move in the wrong circles. Until you allow others to use the same material that you do in these discussions, there is no point in going any further with you.

You are a typical liberal; mind closed and intellecetually dishonest. You select bits from the Bible that you can take out of context or alter to attempt to prove your point, discredit the Bible, and vilify the God of the Bible, but when anyone else appeals to scripture to prove you wrong, youi dismiss their proof out of hand because it comes from the Bible. There is no such thing as a "faith healer". When the Gospel is preached correctly, some will be healed in comfirmation of that Gospel. I have seen people healed of various things for most of my life. You have never heard of one because you move in the wrong circles. Until you allow others to use the same material that you do in these discussions, there is no point in going any further with you.I would prefer that you not go any further with me, because you are more brainwashed than most christians.

I would prefer that you not go any further with me, because you are more brainwashed than most christians.


And we could say you are a brainwashed detist.

And we could say you are a brainwashed detist.Deists cannot be brainwashed, they use their God-given reason in determining truth, & they don't let some book such as the bible do all their thinking for them. They think for themselves.

Deists cannot be brainwashed, they use their God-given reason in determining truth, & they don't let some book such as the bible do all their thinking for them. They think for themselves.

I truly hope that you meant this in jest and don't actually believe that deists cannot be brainwashed. :D :D :D

I truly hope that you meant this in jest and don't actually believe that deists cannot be brainwashed. :D :D :DDeism is brainwash proof.

That shows serious brain washing, to the point they don't believe it is possible

that shows serious brain washing, to the point they don't beleive it is possibleDeists don't have a clergy, or holy books, or rituals, or any such thing that might serve to brainwash them.

Deists cannot be brainwashed, they use their God-given reason in determining truth, & they don't let some book such as the bible do all their thinking for them. They think for themselves.


I think For myself. -_-

All humans think for themselves.

I think For myself. -_-

All humans think for themselves.You don't think for yourself. You don't question the bible at all. You believe it hook, line, & sinker without being critical. The bible says not to lean unto your own understanding, which means don't think for yourself. So don't give me that lying crap that you think for yourself.

I think For myself. -_-Actually most times you don't since you seem to quote verse for every reasoning you make here. That shows that you follow a book blindly versus reasoning stuff out yourself.

I'm not worried about eternity at all. I'm concerned with living this life. Eternity will take care of itself. If there is a heaven, it will be filled with good people whether they were Muslim, Christian, Jehovah's Witness, Agnostic, Atheist, Deist, Pantheist, or any other religion of man.


Diest: what makes you so sure of this. Just because that is how you HOPE things will be when you die that does not mean that is what will take place. Just because that is what you choose to believe it does not change reality. I can jump of a cliff and choose to believe gravity does not exist but the reality still exist whether I want to believe it or not. Hell is real and it will be filled with "good" people who rejected Christ.

One of my fathers close friend was an atheist and he had a near death experience while he was surfing in australia when he got stung by a Jelly fish. I fact he was declaired dead for about 5 min. while he was close to death he prayed to God and said I have heard of you but if you are real save me from death. This man died and got a glimpse of hell and he describes it as the worst thing he has ever seen in his life. In the darkness a light appeared and Jesus appeared and told him to go back to earht and warn people of this. This is a true story! This man had NO interest in the things of God and now he is a pastor of a church in Kansas and tours the world telling people his story. Diest this is reality I hope you do not turn away from Gods hand that is reaching out to you! Just open your heart and give him a chance.

Actually most times you don't since you seem to quote verse for every reasoning you make here. That shows that you follow a book blindly versus reasoning stuff out yourself.
Wrong! We have found truth in God's Word over that of science, or any other book. And since we have found truth why wouldn't we use that truth to back up what we say? It is no different than you quoting a scientists to back up your reasonings.

I get so sick of hearing that Christians are brainwashed. We are not brainwashed. Anyone can know things about the Bible based upon what they are told, but it isn't until you allow God in that it becomes truth. Before I was saved all that I had learned from my parents, family, friends, church, etc. didn't mean anything until I was saved and God could then show me it is truth. There are often people who are raised to believe in the Christian faith, but choose otherwise. If they believe in the Earth's creation and all that's in it through science's explanation, then you could say they were brainwashed by their teachers, by science books, by all those they spoke to that are not religious. If they choose another religion you could say they were brainwashed by that religious book, by those followers, etc. The point is that no matter what a person chooses, they chose it because that is what made more sense to them. They chose it with their own mind and own free will. Not because someone else said so. There are more people who do not believe in God than who do. Therefore it could be said that those who do not, are brainwashed because that is the majority. Just as it can be said that because those who believe are in the minority, they can be brainwashed. Again, no one is brainwashed. If we go by your reasoning then everyone is brainwashed to believe whatever it is they believe. The fact that you think those who are not religious cannot brainwashed just goes to show how one-sided your mind is. It also shows how you yourself do not reason out "stuff".

Well actually I never used the term 'brainwashed' but that's beside the point I'm sure.

I would prefer that you not go any further with me, because you are more brainwashed than most christians.
What galveston said is true. Its seems like you are manupulating the bible, taking verses out of context to suit your argument.
Anyway , my work is done. I have given you an invitation to open your heart and receive Christ and let him prove himself to you. We can all argue till we are blue in the face and if someone's heart is hardened then nothing we can say will change their heart. I will continue to pray for you that you may know Christ and let him change you like he did me.(trust me just thinking possitive has done nothing for me) I was like you, doubtful, before I knew him but it was when I had no where else to turn that I called upon him and even after I had rejected him and mocked Him, he was there with open arms and forgave everything I ever did, traded my heart of stone for a heart that feels compation for others and he gave me new desires. Diest I will leave you with this : God Loves YOU. He knows you by name and he wants you to be reconciled to him. God is love. He is not evil. Satan is evil and he is the one who is lying to you and confusing you, making you feel like you are intelligent because of your reasoning. Out of everything in the Universe there is know, we as human beings know nothing. The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing. God knows everything, the end from the beginning. He love you and cares about you as if you were the only person he created and I will continue to pray for you that you may come to that knowledge. :o

tatertot,
I will too hold hope that you will see the light and become your own person.

tatertot,
I will too hold hope that you will see the light and become you're own person.
Fair enough

tatertot,
I will too hold hope that you will see the light and become you're own person.
You don't consider tatertot to be their own person, and since you didn't say brainwashed, then tatertot couldn't be brainwashed in your opinion, I'm sure.

Sorry that's too confusing for me to understand.

How do christians explain Jesus' failed prophecies ? Here are only two among several.
Matthew 10:23, Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they could go over all the cities of Israel with the gospel. The gospel has since been preached all throughout Israel, & continues to be so with christian television now, & still Jesus hasn't returned.
Mark 14:62, Jesus told the high priest that he would live to see Jesus' second coming. Of course the high priest died before Jesus returned.
So there is two false prophecies made by Jesus. Any explanations ?
In fact, Jesus has returned.

He appeared the discplies after he was resurrected, before the high priest died and before his teachings were released all over the world.

Infact, Jesus has returned.

He appeared the the discplies after he was resurrected, before the high priest died and before his teachings were released all over the world.Did the high priest see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God & coming in the clouds of heaven at that time ? Nope. Jesus wasn't referring to his resurrection, he was referring to his second coming in power & glory.

You don't consider tatertot to be their own person, and since you didn't say brainwashed, then tatertot couldn't be brainwashed in your opinion, I'm sure.

Moonlit waves The best thing for us to do As Christians is to be Christ like and love and pray for these people. Arguing with them is pointless because all they do is go roung and roung in circles. Like you said if we apply their "brainwashed" argument to everyone christian or not, then EVERYONE in the world is Brainwashed because we have ALL come into knowledge of things, ideas and concepts through books we have read things we have been told. So basically Needkarma is not his/her own person either. Everything she knows has been told to her by someone else and therefore accoding to her own argument, she is not her own person. So to me that is the weakest argument I have herd on this site so far. But anyway my faith is not up for debate and Jesus never said we should force people or try and convince people on a cognative level to believe. What you choose to believe is up to you. God has given us free will otherwise he would have made us robots that just follow him. So who ever wants to discredit or reject him is free to do so.

To die a physical death on this earth is not the same as the spiritual death that Jesus defeated when He rose again. Please research your context.

Did the high priest see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God & coming in the clouds of heaven at that time ? Nope. Jesus wasn't referring to his resurrection, he was referring to his second coming in power & glory.

Deist, this argument was refuted and completely shot down once before. Why are you posting it again?

Deist is blowing smoke. In his original statement he gives us 2 of "several" failed prophecies, both of which several have disposed of. A later wild statement is that the Bible teaches that the world is flat, covered with dome. I challenge him to produce chapter and verse for those "several" failed prophecies of Jesus, and also those passages that teach a flat earth with a dome. If he fails to do so, it will be open admission that he doesn't know what he is talking about. In East Texas redneck language, it is time to put up or shut up.

Deist is blowing smoke. In his original statement he gives us 2 of "several" failed prophecies, both of which several have disposed of. A later wild statement is that the Bible teaches that the world is flat, covered with dome. I challenge him to produce chapter and verse for those "several" failed prophecies of Jesus, and also those passages that teach a flat earth with a dome. If he fails to do so, it will be open admission that he doesn't know what he is talking about. In East Texas redneck language, it is time to put up or shut up.Does the bible say the earth is flat ? Yes: The bible repeatedly refers to the four corners of the earth (a sphere has no corners). The Hebrew word translated circle in Isa. 40: 22 is chuwg. It simply refers to a compass or circuit or circle. Nowhere does James Strong say it means a sphere (a round ball); a circle is a flat one dimensional object. In the account of Jesus' temptation we are told that Satan took Jesus up into an exceedingly high mountain & showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You cannot see all the kingdoms of the world on a round globe, for no matter how high you go you cannot see the other side of the globe. You could only see all the kingdoms in the world on a flat earth. Other failed prophecies of Jesus: Jesus said all these things (signs leading to the second coming) will come upon "this generation" (his own generation of that day). Jesus also said, "This generation (referring to his own) shall not pass till all these things (signs leading to the second coming) be fulfilled". So including the previous prophecies I posted of Jesus' claim that he would come again in the first century (Matt. 10: 23 & Mark 14: 62), this makes 4 altogether.

Does the bible say the earth is flat ? Yes: The bible repeatedly refers to the four corners of the earth (a sphere has no corners). The Hebrew word translated circle in Isa. 40: 22 is chuwg. It simply refers to a compass or circuit or circle. Nowhere does James Strong say it means a sphere (a round ball); a circle is a flat one dimensional object. In the account of Jesus' temptation we are told that Satan took Jesus up into an exceedingly high mountain & showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You cannot see all the kingdoms of the world on a round globe, for no matter how high you go you cannot see the other side of the globe. You could only see all the kingdoms in the world on a flat earth. Other failed prophecies of Jesus: Jesus said all these things (signs leading to the second coming) will come upon "this generation" (his own generation of that day). Jesus also said, "This generation (referring to his own) shall not pass till all these things (signs leading to the second coming) be fulfilled". So including the previous prophecies I posted of Jesus' claim that he would come again in the first century (Matt. 10: 23 & Mark 14: 62), this makes 4 altogether.Oh, and the Hebrew word (raqiya) tranlated firmament throughout the Old Testament means arch or dome, it originally referred to a piece if metal beaten into shape.

Does the bible say the earth is flat ? Yes: The bible repeatedly refers to the four corners of the earth (a sphere has no corners). The Hebrew word translated circle in Isa. 40: 22 is chuwg. It simply refers to a compass or circuit or circle. Nowhere does James Strong say it means a sphere (a round ball); a circle is a flat one dimensional object. In the account of Jesus' temptation we are told that Satan took Jesus up into an exceedingly high mountain & showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You cannot see all the kingdoms of the world on a round globe, for no matter how high you go you cannot see the other side of the globe. You could only see all the kingdoms in the world on a flat earth. Other failed prophecies of Jesus: Jesus said all these things (signs leading to the second coming) will come upon "this generation" (his own generation of that day). Jesus also said, "This generation (referring to his own) shall not pass till all these things (signs leading to the second coming) be fulfilled". So including the previous prophecies I posted of Jesus' claim that he would come again in the first century (Matt. 10: 23 & Mark 14: 62), this makes 4 altogether.
Finally! Something to discuss! Yes, the Bible does refer to the four corners of the Earth. We still do so, referring to NSEW. We still refer to sunrise and sunset, we don't say the Earth has completed another revolution. If you stand on the seashore and look carefully, you will see the curve of the Earth. The Bible doesn't claim to be a science book, but consider this:
Job 26:7
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
(KJV)
Correct! Earth floats in space. This from the oldest book in the Bible.
As to Satan showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, have you never heard of a vision? We have TV, so do you suppose Satan has no means of showing someone whatever he wants to? Your understanding of Mat. 24 is flawed. The disciples asked 3 questions, not 1, although they may not have understood that clearly at that time. It is not necessary to think that one answer fits all three. The primary interest of the disciples was centered on the temple buildings, and Jesus told them that they would all be destroyed in their lifetimes, and took the opportunity to tell them how to escape if they were in Jerusalem at that time. I have put in quite a bit of time on this chapter, and never got any idea that Jesus said He would return in the first century. You're stretching!

Oh, and the Hebrew word (raqiya) tranlated firmament throughout the Old Testament means arch or dome, it originally referred to a piece if metal beaten into shape.
As I said before, the Bible is not a science book. What do you or anyone else see when you look up? You see the "dome" of heaven. I have seen this expression used in more contemporary writings. As far as that is concerned, it is a dome no matter when you look up. There is something else, not sure I understand all about it, but I hear there are some cosmologists who say that there is no way that we can prove by observation whether Earth moves around the Sun or whether everything revolves around the Earth, as appearanes would be the same. Not saying I believe it, but don't get too cocky.

You have a skewed understanding of the founding of the US, no doubt propagated by the far right. Most of the founding fathers were deists, masons, & unitarians. Few were christians. If you doubt my words then maybe you ought to read article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli, signed by president John Adams himself & ratified by congress in 1797. Article 11 in part reads that the US government is in NO sense founded on the christian religion. The US was founded as a secular nation. Why do you think the constitution guarantees separation of church & state ?
At this point you give false statements. People have gone to a lot of research to compile lists like this one. Religious Affiliation
Of U.S. Founding Fathers # of
Founding
Fathers % of
Founding
Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204


NOTES: The table above counts people and not "roles," meaning that individuals have not been counted multiple times if they appear on more than one of the lists above. Roger Sherman, for example, signed all three foundational documents and he was a Representative in the First Federal Congress, but he has been counted only once.

So you see, there were a lot of Christians who founded this country. Secular does not mean anti-god or atheist. You talk about separation of church and state, but the prohibitions are both against the state, not the church. In plain language, the State is not to interfere with the Church. This is a departure from the question you posed, but you opened this door.

Finally! Something to discuss! Yes, the Bible does refer to the four corners of the Earth. We still do so, referring to NSEW. We still refer to sunrise and sunset, we don't say the Earth has completed another revolution. If you stand on the seashore and look carefully, you will see the curve of the Earth. The Bible doesn't claim to be a science book, but consider this:
Job 26:7
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
(KJV)
Correct! Earth floats in space. This from the oldest book in the Bible.
As to Satan showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, have you never heard of a vision? We have TV, so do you suppose Satan has no means of showing someone whatever he wnats to? Your understanding of Mat. 24 is flawed. The disciples asked 3 questions, not 1, although they may not have understood that clearly at that time. It is not necessary to think that one answer fits all three. The primary interest of the disciples was centered on the temple buildings, and Jesus told them that they would all be destroyed in their lifetimes, and took the opportunity to tell them how to escape if they were in Jerusalem at that time. I have put in quite a bit of time on this chapter, and never got any idea that Jesus said He would return in the first century. You're stretching!The bible not only indicates a flat earth, but Job's reference to the earth being suspended in empty space is just one verse. There are more verses in the bible that says the earth is supported upon pillars or resting on some kind of solid foundation (1 Sam. 2; 8; Job 38: 4; Psa. 75: 3; Psa. 104: 5; Jer. 31: 37; Micah 6: 2). And the bible indicates they didn't know the earth spun on it's axis, because in several verses it says the earth is firmly fixed that it move not, & they didn't know the earth was revolving around the sun.

The bible not only indicates a flat earth, but Job's reference to the earth being suspended in empty space is just one verse. There are more verses in the bible that says the earth is supported upon pillars or resting on some kind of solid foundation (1 Sam. 2; 8; Job 38: 4; Psa. 75: 3; Psa. 104: 5; Jer. 31: 37; Micah 6: 2). And the bible indicates they didn't know the earth spun on it's axis, because in several verses it says the earth is firmly fixed that it move not, & they didn't know the earth was revolving around the sun.

1 Sam 2:8
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
(KJV)

4690 matsuwq (maw-tsook');
or matsuq (maw-tsook'); from 6693; something narrow, i.e. a column or hilltop:
KJV-- pillar, situate.
Pillars convey the idea of support, and the Earth is supported by gravotational fields, whoch would have made no sense to early man at all. God speaks in understandable terms.
I believe that all these that you have referenced are in the nature of poetic statements, but will commont on them nevertheless.
Since you choose to believe vs. 8 literally, then you must believe vs. 10 literally also. If you are an adversary, this is not good news.
1 Sam 2:10
10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.
(KJV)

Job 38:4
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.
(KJV)
3245 yacad (yaw-sad');

a primitive root; to set (literally or figuratively); intensively, to found; reflexively, to sit down together, i.e. settle, consult:

KJV-- appoint, take counsel, establish, (lay the, lay for a) found (-ation), instruct, lay, ordain, set, X sure.

(The phrase simply asks where Job was when God founded the earth, broaden your thinking about the meaning of "foundation".
5982 `ammuwd (am-mood');

or `ammud (am-mood'); from 5975; a column (as standing); also a stand, i.e. platform:

KJV-- X apiece, pillar.

Ps 75:3
3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.
(KJV)

Ps 104:5
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
(KJV)

4349 makown (maw-kone');

from 3559; properly, a fixture, i.e. a basis; generally a place, especially as an abode:

KJV-- foundation, habitation, (dwelling-, settled) place.
(Earth has a settled place, or dwelling, known to us as orbit.)
Jer 31:37
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

4146 mowcadah (mo-saw-daw');

or mocadah (mo-saw-daw'); feminine of 4144; a foundation:

KJV-- foundation.

Micah 6:2
2 Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.
(KJV)

4146 mowcadah (mo-saw-daw');

or mocadah (mo-saw-daw'); feminine of 4144; a foundation:

KJV-- foundation.

(Many things in Psalms and some of the prophets are expressed in poetic form, and we do no violence to the message by understanding it as such. But again, if you insist on literal understanding of these verses, then how do you justify not believing other verses at all?)

Deist, you said that you were a Christian for years (27?). Would you answer a question about that? Were you saved, born again, regenerated, brought into the Body of Christ, or some other expression of the same thing, or were you just a church member? If you don't know how to answer that question, then the church you were part of failed you. Which church was it? It has to be extremely frustrating to invest so much of your life and get nothing in return. The big problem for you now is that Deism will turn out to be just as empty.

Well, you're right it wasn't Gabriel. It was:
Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(KJV)

I hardly think Isaiah's son was born of a virgin, do you?

It's amazing to me how quick we lose all common sense when religion enters the picture.

Of course Isaiah's son was not born of a virgin. Have you even known a woman to give birth who has never been with a man? (I guess I should say without a mans sperm) Common sense tells us this cannot happen, why? Because we understand something like this just cannot happen. So then why do we believe it did in this case? It really disturbs me just how little Christians know the very Bible they recite scripture after scripture from. There are a few things wrong with this scripture. I will start with the obvious, that this scripture was not foretelling of a future event that doesn't take place for another 700 or so years.

When read in context(that is to read from beginning to end) you would find that the "sign" was for Ahaz not to be concerned about problems he was facing at That time. Now how could a birth 700 or 800 years later be a sign for Ahaz who is long since been dead?

Another problem with that scripture is the mistranslation of the word almah which means young woman not virgin. This makes sense since we see in the very next chapter that child is in fact born and the sign is given. Of course we all know if we read our bibles Ahaz was not all right and still ended up with reason to be afraid... lol

The third problem with that scripture is that no where in the NT is Jesus called Immanuel.

I don't wish to change anyone's beliefs but it would be nice for people to study for themselves than to believe what they are told from pulpits by people who have a lot to lose if people stopped believing in the myth they are trying to sell.

When read in context(that is to read from beginning to end) you would find that the "sign" was for Ahaz not to be concerned about problems he was facing at That time. Now how could a birth 700 or 800 years later be a sign for Ahaz who is long since been dead?

Ahaz refused to ask for a sign for himself, and if you read the whole context, you will see that it is a future prophecy, referring to events in a future "day". Many prophetic announces in scripture take an exten ded period to fulfill. Read Hebrews 11 and read about those who stepped out in faith, and the promise was a future promise which, in many case, they they themselves would not see.


Another problem with that scripture is the mistranslation of the word almah which means young woman not virgin.

That makes no sense at all. How would a young woman giving birth be a sign. I don't know how it is where you live, but around here, young women giving birth is pretty much the norm.

The Great Scholar Rashi argued that Almah meant virgin. “Behold the almah shall conceive and bare a son and shall call his name Immanuel. This means that our Creator shall be with us. And this is the sign: the one who will conceive is a girl (naarah), who never in her life has had intercourse with any man. Upon this shall the Holy Spirit have power. (Mikraoth Gedoloth on Isaiah 7:14)


The third problem with that scripture is that no where in the NT is Jesus called Immanuel.

Matt 1:22-25
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." 24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
NKJV

Now we know that Jesus was referred to as God being with us because of severla passages, not the least of which is 1 Tim 3:16 which tells us that He was God manifested in the flesh:

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

Further, do you know the origins of the name "Jesus" (or more properly Yeshuah)? It is found in the Old Testament, for example in Is 12:2

Isa 12:2
2 Behold, God is my salvation,
I will trust and not be afraid;
'For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song;
He also has become my salvation.'"
NKJV

Let's show where the name of Jesus appears here:

Isa 12:2
2 Behold, God is my Yeshuah,
I will trust and not be afraid;
'For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song;
He also has become my Yeshuah.'"
NKJV

Ahaz refused to ask for a sign for himself,

Isiah gave him one anyway. Which is why the story continues. If he hadn't there would have been no more story to write. As we know there was still plenty.


and if you read the whole context, you will see that it is a future prophecy, referring to events in a future "day". Many prophetic announces in scripture take an exten ded period to fulfill.

Please read the whole story!! Have you ever read the very next chapter? Have you ever read the part about the prophetess giving birth to the son that was just talked about in the previous chapter? You will see if you READ that most stories are started and completed in the OT. None of it has anything to do with the NT.


That makes no sense at all. How would a young woman giving birth be a sign

That is exactly my point!! It had nothing to do with a supernatural demi god being born(hell the OT does everything it can to warn the Jews from this very concept) and the "sign" wasn't even upheld because Ahaz had plenty to worry about. Failed prophesy was pretty much the norm back then though so I really don't find this too surprising.


Matt 1:22-25
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." 24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
NKJV


All you have shown here is the writer of Matt. Quoting a passage from Isiah, no one actually called him Immanuel.

The rest of your Jesus bit I will just leave alone because the Christian Jesus is hardly the only Jesus ever written about. Hell Josephus wrote about 16 of them. It was a common name used back then from OT times with Joshua, Joseph, Jesus, it's all the same thing which is further proof that the NT is just further rehashment of older myths and beliefs.

Yeshuah = Joshua= Jesus, nothing new here I am full aware or the origin of the name.

Isiah gave him one anyway. Which is why the story continues. If he hadn't there would have been no more story to write. As we know there was still plenty.

Actually God gave him one through Isaiah, but don't stop there - read the whole prophecy - see what it says!


Please read the whole story!! Have you ever read the very next chapter? Have you ever read the part about the prophetess giving birth to the son that was just talked about in the previous chapter? You will see if you READ that most stories are started and completed in the OT. None of it has anything to do with the NT.

I read the next chapter, as well as the whole book.


That is exactly my point!! It had nothing to do with a supernatural demi god being born(hell the OT does everything it can to warn the Jews from this very concept) and the "sign" wasn't even upheld because Ahaz had plenty to worry about. Failed prophesy was pretty much the norm back then though so I really don't find this too surprising.

Except that you are ignoring the fact that it does not mean "young woman". I notice that you ignored what the Hebrew scholar says that it means in favour of what you want it to mean.


All you have shown here is the writer of Matt. Quoting a passage from Isiah, no one actually called him Immanuel.

Did you read the rest of what I said?


The rest of your Jesus bit I will just leave alone because the Christian Jesus is hardly the only Jesus ever written about. Hell Josephus wrote about 16 of them. It was a common name used back then from OT times with Joshua, Joseph, Jesus, it's all the same thing which is further proof that the NT is just further rehashment of older myths and beliefs.

Your point is? Yes it was a common name, but we are talking about one specific person, and the prophecies in the OT point to this one specific person.


Yeshuah = Joshua= Jesus, nothing new here I am full aware or the origin of the name.If you were, you would know that Joshua, though related, is not the same.

It seems that your response here is just to deny everything.

A short lesson in studying prophecies. A prophecy may be tucked away next to something seemingly unrelated.
Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
(KJV)
Jesus read this far and announced the fulfillment of it. Now look further at what followed in the scroll:

Isa 61:1-2
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
(KJV)
Jesus stopped reading in mid-sentence because the day of vengeance was not due until later.
Now:

Isa 7:14-16
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
(KJV)
Verse 14 is a messianic prophecy but verse 16 had a fulfillment in the prophet's own son.
In the discourse in Mat. Ch 24, there are several prophecies given at the same time, but will be fulfilled each in its own time. The one of most interest to those present was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, their own danger in that situation along with the information that allowed them to escape. These things did indeed take place within the prophecied time frame. How can you call this a failed prophecy?


Luke 1:35
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(KJV)

The Bible teaches all through it that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Like it or not!

Except that you are ignoring the fact that it does not mean "young woman". I notice that you ignored what the Hebrew scholar says that it means in favour of what you want it to mean.


I don't mean to be rude but that Hebrew scholar is pulling your leg. Have you read the actual hebrew version of it?

It translates like this.

Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. The word used there is almah. This is known because in the very same book in chapter 62 verse 5 which reads like this,

For as a young man espouseth a virgin, so shall thy sons espouse thee; and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

You see virgin is actually used and the word for that was bethulah.

So If the word was supposed to be virgin in chapter 7 why did they use a different version in ch. 62? The Hebrews had a word for virgin and it was not almah.

Please do not take my word for it, read the hebrew version for yourself. Look into this stuff for yourself. You will find there are many mistranslations.

That is why I will not except any passage from the NT claiming prophesy fulfillment as regard to Jesus. The Jews simply did not believe the Mesiah would be a demigod. They wrote more than once that the Mesiah would be a human and a military leader. He would be a descendant of David which Jesus clearly could not be if he was born of a virgin.


and the prophecies in the OT point to this one specific person.]

There is not one prophesy in the OT that points to the NT Jesus. Again as I have said the Jews simply did not believe in Demigods. If they chose to believe in Demigods there were plenty around that time they could have jumped on the bandwagon for. All through the OT you see the people of Isreal struggling with praying to other Gods and God warning them for doing so. Why would he change the rules later on?

Please do not think I am ignoring the rest of the stuff you posted, I'm just not sure where you are trying to go with it.

I don't mean to be rude but that Hebrew scholar is pulling your leg. Have you read the actual hebrew version of it?

Heh heh heh - you don't know who that Hebrew scholar is, do you?

Before you answer, you should check out things like that.


There is not one prophesy in the OT that points to the NT Jesus.

Now I know that you have not studied the Bible.

heh heh heh - you don't know who that Hebrew scholar is, do you?

Before you answer, you should check out things like that.



Now I know that you have not studied the Bible.

I gues I have to ask... wh is that "Hebrew scholar" and is he a scholar of linguistics or of biblical Hebrew within a theological context which informed the language development?

As to the other "prophecies", I was recently referred to a page which listed hundreds of "messianic prophecies" which supposedly, jesus filled. Problem is many were generic (many people rode donkeys and were smart) and many, within the jewish tradition which predated Jesus, were not ever messianic prophecies. Some referred to a nation, some to other kings and some actually to previous events.

heh heh heh - you don't know who that Hebrew scholar is, do you?


I don't care who it is, I just showed you the Hebrew version. I just showed undeniable truth that you would see if you would take the time to read for yourself. It really makes no difference who this scholar is.


Now I know that you have not studied the Bible.

I just showed how there was proof of mistranslation of a key verse to christianity using actual translation from hebrew text and you tell me I have not studied the Bible?

This is really how your going to end this?

I don't care who it is, I just showed you the Hebrew version. I just showed undeniable truth that you would see if you would take the time to read for yourself. It really makes no difference who this scholar is.


You showed me YOUR opinion.

Tell you what. Why don't you ask your local synagogue or Yeshiva who Rashi is, or do a quick check on internet. I see nothing that would suggest that your opinion should be considered above and beyond that of recognized Hebrew scholars.

You showed me YOUR opinion.

Tell you what. Why don't you ask your local synagogue or Yeshiva who Rashi is, or do a quick check on internet. I see nothing that would suggest that your opinion should be considered above and beyond that of recognized Hebrew scholars.

I just wrote you scripture from their own bible. Am I to believe I'm going to walk into a synagogue and they tell me differently? A Jew is going to tell me their Bible is Wrong?

Please, if you have something else to add to the debate by all means add to it, but do not insult me by saying a Jew is going to read from their Bible and tell me it means something totally different.

I just wrote you scripture from their own bible. Am I to believe I'm going to walk into a synagogue and they tell me differently?? A Jew is going to tell me their Bible is Wrong??

Please, if you have something else to add to the debate by all means add to it, but do not insult me by saying a Jew is going to read from their Bible and tell me it means something totally different.

Check out who Rashi is and then you will understand why I am sitting here laughing as you try to tell me that you are a greater authority than he is in translating the Hberew scriptures.

Trust me - a simple search on internet, a phone call to any synagogue or Yeshiva will quickly tell you who he is.

Check out who Rashi is and then you will understand why I am sitting here laughing as you try to tell me that you are a greater authority than he is in translating the Hberew scriptures.

Trust me - a simple search on internet, a phone call to any synagogue or Yeshiva will quickly tell you who he is.

I don't care who Rashi is. I am not even trying to push my opinion. I simply typed exact hebrew scripture. It's all right there. Nothing made up. You can laugh all you want, please, laughter adds years to the life span (at least that's what they say)

I would like for you to please leave a link though of this guy claiming that almah meant virgin. If he had than it wouldn't be true that most Jews agree with him.

ROFL!!


Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.


This is straight from a Rashi site... would you like a link?

The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi - Classic Texts (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm)

That's even better than the verse I showed for this one says the woman is already with child!!

ROFL!!

How was she pregnant for 800 years?. lol

Maybe you would have been better to leave it alone.

I don't care who Rashi is. I am not even trying to push my opinion. I simply typed exact hebrew scripture. It's all right there. Nothing made up. You can laugh all you want, please, laughter adds years to the life span (at least thats what they say)

But all you have is your opinion.

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is straight from a Rashi site.....would you like a link??

The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi - Classic Texts (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm)

You may want to check out your link. It does not say what you think.

You may want to check out your link. It does not say what you think.


You mean it doesn't say what you want it to.

Follow the links man, it will be great reading for what the Jews and your Rashi believed.

You mean it doesn't say what you want it to.

Follow the links man, it will be great reading for what the Jews and your Rashi believed.

Pregnant for 800 years - where is that link?

But hopefully by now you know who Rashi is, and hopefully you now understand that your interpretation of Hebrew is not beyond that of Rashi. Now perhaps it would be good to get into Hebrew translation. Let's get back to what I said which started this:

That makes no sense at all. How would a young woman giving birth be a sign. I don't know how it is where you live, but around here, young women giving birth is pretty much the norm.

The Great Scholar Rashi argued that Almah meant virgin. “Behold the almah shall conceive and bare a son and shall call his name Immanuel. This means that our Creator shall be with us. And this is the sign: the one who will conceive is a girl (naarah), who never in her life has had intercourse with any man. Upon this shall the Holy Spirit have power. (Mikraoth Gedoloth on Isaiah 7:14).

Pregnant for 800 years - where is that link?



Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.


I just gave a link to this. You do realise that scripture was written about 700 years before the Jesus story supposedly took place right? So by the scripture above saying the woman is with child meaning already pregnant she would have had to been pregnant for about 800 years.


and hopefully you now understand that your interpretation of Hebrew is not beyond that of Rashi.

Yeah,, I just showed he believed the same thing. It is not my opinion man, it's what the Jews believe from what they read in their Bible. You do understand Judaism and Christianity are 2 different religions don't you? They do not read the English translation of the vulgate translation of the original Hebrew as do the Christians.


That makes no sense at all. How would a young woman giving birth be a sign. I don't know how it is where you live, but around here, young women giving birth is pretty much the norm.

Well you may find this hard to believe but I find most of what is in the Bible hard to believe, but maybe you should follow that link and read the text the way it was originally written. It may shed a little light on the situation.


The Great Scholar Rashi argued that Almah meant virgin

No he did not. No respected Scholar will tell you Almah meant virgin. I already showed you 2 different verses in the same book of the Bible that used the 2 different words. One was used as virgin and it was not almah. Again if you follow that link and do some reading you will just leave this alone.

I just gave a link to this. You do realise that scripture was written about 700 years before the Jesus story supposedly took place right? So by the scripture above saying the woman is with child meaning already pregnant she would have had to been pregnant for about 800 years.


You are assuming that it does not mean, as the Bible says, Jesus. You are also assuming that the woman is not a virgin. Something that you have yet to prove. You may also want to note this comment in wikipedia:

"Jewish scholars who translated and compiled the Hebrew scriptures (the Torah first and then later the Prophets and the Writings) into a Greek version of the Old Testament, translated almah in Isaiah 7:14 as parthenos, which almost always[18] means "virgin". Since these Jewish scholars were well acquainted with the meaning of the old Hebrew words as well as the Greek, their interpretation (developed hundreds of years before Jesus) should be given special weight."
(Source: Almah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah))


Yeah,, I just showed he believed the same thing. It is not my opinion man, it's what the Jews believe from what they read in their Bible. You do understand Judaism and Christianity are 2 different religions don't you? They do not read the English translation of the vulgate translation of the original Hebrew as do the Christians.

You need to understand the difference between the meaning of the word in Hebrew and personal beliefs. I never said that the Jews would say that this referred to Jesus, but you were wrong in claiming that it does not say virgin.


Well you may find this hard to believe but I find most of what is in the Bible hard to believe, but maybe you should follow that link and read the text the way it was originally written. It may shed a little light on the situation.

From what I can see, you read it the way that you wish it were written.


No he did not.

So even when you are shopwn who he is and what he said, you refuse to accept it, and still place your Hebrew interpretation over the scholars. As long as you are unwilling to believe that you could be wrong, then there is little value in discussing the issue.


No respected Scholar will tell you Almah meant virgin.

I just showed you one and gave the reference.

And again, maybe where you live, a young woman giving birth would be a sign, but around here that is pretty much the norm. But a virgin giving birth is indeed a sign.

I trust that you also notice that in both reference to Rashi, that he stated that this verse speaks of God/Creator being with us.

T,

You have shown me nothing. I have not seen anywhere Rashi claiming Almah meant virgin. In fact I have shown you complete opposite of that, by his own translation.

I don't know what else I have to show you.

Virgin Birth (http://anti-missionary.com/files/VirginBirth.html)

"Therefore the L-rd will give you a sign. Behold the young woman (almah) is pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will call his name Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14)."

For two thousand years Jews have viewed the Virgin Birth myth as an oddity. The New Testament reading of Isaiah 7:14 is such a blatant mistranslation and is so wrenched from context that Jews have assured themselves that they do not need missionaries to understand their own Bible.

The Jewish rejection of "virgin birth" is based on at least ten reasons:

1) Betulah definitely means "virgin" (see Leviticus 21:14- the High Priest can marry only a virgin; Deuteronomy 22:14- a groom claims he did not find betulim, signs of virginity, in his bride). Isaiah 7:14 does not use the word betulah.

2) Almah, mentioned in Isaiah 7:14, means "young woman." It does not mean virgin (Proverbs 30:18-20 speaks of an adulterous almah!).

3) Christian claim support based on the Greek translation. In fact the Greek word for almah (Parthenos) is used to describe Dinah after she was raped (Genesis 34:2-4)!

4) Five times does Isaiah say the word betulah, but not in 7:14, which supposedly speaks of a virgin birth (23:4, 23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 62:5)!

5) Context: King Achaz is worried that he will suffer defeat by two foreign kings (7:2). Isaiah reassures the king that a woman will give birth to Immanuel (the name means: G-d is with us) . The birth of Immanuel is a "sign" of G-d's rescue (7:14-17).

Achaz will not be reassured by a "sign" that Jesus will be born centuries later. He needs G-d's salvation now.

6) Ha-almah does not mean a young woman but the young woman: someone known to Isaiah and Achaz.

7) Isaiah 7:16 says that Achaz's enemy kings will fall before the son grows up- not in Jesus' time. This prophecy was fulfilled (II Kings 16:5-9, 15:29-30).

8) 7:16 says that while the son is growing up he will "not know to reject bad and choose good." How can this refer to a divine being?

9) 7:16 says of the son, "he will eat cream and honey" (enjoy prosperity-see 7:22). When did Jesus eat cream and honey?

10) A "sign" must be visible e.g. a rainbow (Genesis 9:13). Mary's alleged virginity was not visible to anyone. Isaiah 8:18 says that children are a "sign" for that is visible.

The evidence against the Christian myth is overwhelming, yet Michael Brown persists in justifying this myth (see Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 3 pp.17-32 ). We do not fault him for offering unconvincing apologetics, for it is a hopeless task.

Brown maintains that both betulah and almah are ambiguous, so either can be used for virgin or non-virgin. Therefore usage of almah in 7:14, maintains Brown, is no reason to reject the virgin birth. This a dim view of the Hebrew language that Isaiah can use no term to clearly mean virgin when that is supposedly his entire point.

He cites a few verses that mention betulah although the issue is not virginity per se. Isaiah 23:4 says, "I have never labored, never given birth, never raised young men or virgins." Ezekiel 9:6 speaks as: "slay to death old man, young man, virgin, young children and women." The word "virgin" is used, but the point is "young woman."

On this basis, Brown argues that betulah does not necessarily mean virgin. This is completely false. That "virgin" is a Biblical expression for unmarried woman does not detract from the literal meaning. In Biblical thought unmarried women are expected to be virgins.

Logically, Brown must at least show that betulah can mean a non-virgin. Rebecca is described in Genesis 24:16 as, "a betulah, whom no man had known." Brown argues that if betulah clearly means virgin, the rest of the phrase is superfluous. Even if we disregard that parallel expressions are common in Scripture, Brown provides no reason to reject the traditional view that the double expression is meant to include other types of physical intimacy.

Job pledges "not to look lustfully at a betulah" (31:1). Brown thinks that since Job has no way of knowing who is a virgin, he cannot mean virgin. When we reiterate that virgin is a Biblical convention for unmarried woman, Brown's point is moot.

Isaiah metaphorically refers to Babylon as a betulah (47:1) and warns Babylon against a false sense of security. Babylon believes, "I shall not become a widow, or know loss of children" (47:8). What could be better for Brown than a betulah who is widowed and missing her children? He ignores that (1) there is greater fluidity with metaphorical than literal descriptions, (2) Isaiah is referring to Babylon in the present while Babylon is referring to herself in the future.

Finally we come to a verse where betulah and widowhood are explicitly linked: "Lament- like a betulah dressed in sackcloth for the husband of her youth (Joel 1:8)." Here Brown violates a basic rule of interpretation: Scripture in the light interprets Scipture in the dark. Theoretically this verse could be speaking, metaphorically, of a betrothed virgin or a consummated woman (in ancient Jewish culture betrothal and consummation were months apart). Scripture elsewhere mentions betulah in full clarity and so reveals Joel's intention: a betrothed virgin.

Even if there would be a verse where betulah means non-virgin or a verse where almah means virgin, betulah is certainly a clearer expression of virginity. If Isaiah wanted to make a point that a birth would be virginal, undoubtedly he would have not have said almah.

What of the objection that Isaiah is in context clearly speaking of a woman in his time- centuries before Mary? Brown claims that there is "no record of fulfillment" (no verse says "and so Immanuel was born"). In fact, there is no need for any "record of fulfillment." If Isaiah says he will be born in the contemporary generation, and he clearly does say this (7:16), Immanuel is not Jesus.

Let us look at 7:16 in full: "For before the child will know to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread shall be deserted." Achaz dreads the two kings of Israel and Aram, but these kings will be defeated before Immanuel grows up.

The evidence against the New Testament is so overwhelming that Brown makes a telling concession. He admits that Immanuel was born in Isaiah's time but claims, like other missionaries, that 7:16 is a dual prophecy. In other words, there are two Immanuels: the real Immanuel and Jesus.

This is totally preposterous. Isaiah gives no indication whatsoever that this is a dual prophecy (indeed dual prophecy is unbiblical). The story surrounding Immanuel's conception has no resemblance to the Nativity of Jesus. What two kings suffered a downfall because of Jesus? Do Christians believe there was a virgin birth in Isaiah's time, in addition to Jesus?! This explanation is nothing but a desperate attempt to hide from an obvious disproof. Dual prophecy is as baseless as triple or quadruple prophecy.

Finally, the frequency of virgin births in pagan mythology raises great suspicion that the New Testament myth is of pagan, not Biblical origin.

Summary: Betulah definitely means virgin, and Isaiah certainly would have used this word had he spoken of a virgin birth. Immanuel is obviously born in Isaiah's time, and the deliverance his name represents (G-d is with us) was predicted to be fulfilled, and was fulfilled, in those days. Mary has no more to do with Immanuel than does the mother of Elvis Presley.

Note: some of the ideas in this essay are taken from Tovia Singer's Let's Get Biblical

From what I can see, you read it the way that you wish it were written.


I posted the verse and left a link so it's easy to see I wrote exactly what the site said above. Until you come up with a new argument I will have to end this. Again I don't mean to sound rude but you are not coming off looking very smart right now telling me I'm reading something wrong when I post it exactly how it is written.

You have insulted me again so I think it's time to wrap this up.

T,

You have shown me nothing. I have not seen anywhere Rashi claiming Almah meant virgin. Infact I have shown you complete opposite of that, by his own translation.


I posted it up here twice. If you have not seen it, it is because you are choosing not to see it. I have also shown you that the Jewish translators choose to translate the word as virgin.

But just so that you cannot say that you did not see it, here it is once again:

The Great Scholar Rashi argued that Almah meant virgin. “Behold the almah shall conceive and bare a son and shall call his name Immanuel. This means that our Creator shall be with us. And this is the sign: the one who will conceive is a girl (naarah), who never in her life has had intercourse with any man. Upon this shall the Holy Spirit have power. (Mikraoth Gedoloth on Isaiah 7:14).

And once again, let me post this so that you cannot say that you did not see it:

"Jewish scholars who translated and compiled the Hebrew scriptures (the Torah first and then later the Prophets and the Writings) into a Greek version of the Old Testament, translated almah in Isaiah 7:14 as parthenos, which almost always[18] means "virgin". Since these Jewish scholars were well acquainted with the meaning of the old Hebrew words as well as the Greek, their interpretation (developed hundreds of years before Jesus) should be given special weight."
(Source: Almah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The fact that the Jewish anti-missionaries don't agree that it refers to Jesus does not change the fact that the text refers to virgin. Whether the Jewish anti-missionaries believe that it refers to Jesus is a matter of personal belief.

According to Rashi, the 11th century Rabbi, the answer is clear. The prophet is talking about Israel suffering for the Gentiles. Most Rabbis today agree that this is the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53. But there are opposing views within Judaism to Rashi's, including ancient Rabbis who interpreted Isaiah 53 as being about the Messiah. For example:

Link to the rest of this

Isaiah 53 - Who is this prophet talking about? (http://www.tmtestimony.org.uk/library/2000_3.htm)

I am done with you.

You are not giving me a link to any of that crap your posting which leads me to believe it's coming from a very biased sourse

The full story from Wikipedia

Almah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah)

Hardly a nail in the coffin nice try though. It still does not explain why in the chapter the debate is over the word for virgin is different from the word later used for virgin in a later chapter. I would think if the said verse really wanted us to believe it was meant to be virgin they would have made sure there was no controversy.

How do u explain this Kabalistic theory of the creation of the universe:

Before the creation, Divinity filled the universe. Then for some unknown reason, God decided to create. God allowed a tiny part of "Himself" to shrink out of the universe, leaving a space filled still with "tzim-tzum". God sent a beam of energy from within "Himself" out into the newly abandoned space, apparently trying to create containers for this energy. But for some reason unknown to us, God appears to have failed, with the result that the containers were shattered, forming the shells or what is known as the Kellipoht, the place where demons dwell. God attempted the process again, this time succeeding. The energy from the AIN went through the AIN SOPH, through the AIN SOPH OR and into the first Sephira . That sephira filled with energy, then overflowed into Sephira number two and so forth down the Tree of Life into Sephira ten where an equilibrium , a balance was established...

What was that, God failed?! Wow then I guess if the source of all powers and divinity failed, then everything and everyone else can be excused lol.

Do you really and honestly believe in all that stuff??

Onan, I'm in full agreement with you. All the facts are on your side. Christians just want to believe Isa. 7: 14 refers to Jesus, & they will say or do anything to prove it refers to Jesus, blindly rejecting straight facts such as you have supplied. Take this, for example, of how biased christians are. Harvard educated young earth creationist Kurt Wise once said no matter how much convincing proof of evolution were found he would still be a creationist. This coming from a scientist who is supposed to go where the evidence leads. That's what I call biased, & all christians are the same way. No matter what evidence they see they will hold to their faith.

>Thread Closed<

This site is for questions and answers, not preaching... especially by making the preaching look like a question.

The Member Discussions area is for Discussions, the rest of the site is for sincere questions.

Jesus will come when he has done all that needs to be done and we who are saved will go to heaven ,the unsaved will suffer for eterenity,, i pray ya know jesus and have asked him to forgive you of your sins and then ya can come to heaven also.. i know